Coleman 'Committed' to 12 Towers
Housing minister pledges that if Vancouver fast tracks permits, province will provide money to build more than 1,100 new homes.
Vancouver's Downtown Eastside. Photo: The Dominion.
2010: More Homeless than Athletes?
- More Homeless than Athletes in 2010
- Vancouver's SROs: 'Zero Vacancy'
- Homeless to Housed in One Day
- Province's Boasts of 'New' Homeless Units Don't Add Up
- Dobell Homeless Plan Stalled
- Homeless Solution Up for Vote
- Olympic Partners Said to 'Fudge' Housing Claims
- Vancouver Losing SROs Faster than It Can Replace Them
- No New Homes in Premier's Homelessness Plan
- Coleman 'Committed' to 12 Towers
The Province of British Columbia has hammered out a deal with the City of Vancouver that could fast-track development of more than 1,100 new studio apartments for the homeless.
If funded, the 12-building project will represent the largest single investment in social housing in British Columbia's history. Housing Minister Rich Coleman told The Tyee that if Vancouver approves the permits, he'll provide the estimated $300 million needed to build these homes.
"One way or another, we are going to make this happen," Coleman told The Tyee. "We're completely committed to this project... I want to break ground on at least six of these sites within a year."
Under that best-case scenario, Coleman's aggressive timeframe might complete one or two of these 12 buildings just in time for the 2010 Winter Games. Reaching that particular Olympic dream will require an unprecedented degree of political leadership, neighbourhood support and bureaucratic coordination within a city hall where such behaviour has been notably absent this year.
The BC Housing deal will be presented to Vancouver City Council on November 13. A public meeting on the proposal is scheduled for Dec. 12.
Architects already aboard
The 12-tower deal -- presented in a memorandum of understanding and discussed in a report to council -- is an extension of BC Housing's previously announced plan to fund pre-development activities.
The memo identifies 12 of about 20 sites the city has committed to social housing, and suggests an approximate number of studio apartments that could be built at each site. (See sidebar.)
Five of the sites are located in commercial areas. The city will push to add about 30,000 sq. ft. of retail space on the ground floors of those buildings. Two of those sites --- the Drake Hotel site on Powell at Princess, and the Broadway Youth Resource Centre site on Broadway at Fraser --- are large enough to also accommodate a full mix of market, non-market and commercial space.
Three architectural firms have already been hired to design the buildings: Davidson Yuen Simpson, Gomberoff Bell Lyon, and Neale Staniszkis Doll Adams. BC Housing will require that all 12 towers meet LEED Gold environmental standards, and be "greenhouse gas neutral."
Non-profits to run buildings
The city and province will jointly select a team of non-profit housing organizations to lease and manage the new apartment buildings. Those so-called "sponsors" are expected to include some of the same groups recently selected to operate the ten residential hotels BC Housing bought last spring. The operators will be required to staff the new buildings 24-7, with staff sizes varying according to building size and tenant profile.
One-third to one-half of the apartments in each building will be supportive housing, at which additional staff support residents recovering from addiction and/or mental illness. The rest of the small, self-contained apartments will be let to low-income singles at risk of homelessness.
Two of the 12 towers are expected to be "low-barrier" facilities that would shelter the hardest-to-house individuals. One of these is slated to replace the recently shuttered Marie Gomez Place on the corner of Alexander and Princess streets.
The plan is similar to Vancouver's Supportive Housing Strategy, a model the The Tyee advocated accelerating when it went to council in June.
Critic "leery" of privatization
The city is putting $50 million worth of land into the deal, plus $7 million toward the cost of ground floor commercial space and more than $160,000 worth of staff time to expedite the permits. The deal also calls for the city to forgo taxes on the 12 towers, a loss of revenue estimated at $1 million a year.
Construction costs are estimated at $300 million, according to the city report, while on-going operating subsidies are figured at $10 million a year.
The deal "assumes that the Province and its other partners (the Federal Government, corporate and private donors, non-profit housing and service providers) will provide funding to build and operate the Projects in 2008," according to the memorandum, which adds, "The funding will include the half of the net proceeds from the redevelopment of Little Mountain Housing Project to be invested in the City."
This lack of committed funding drew harsh words from MLA David Chudnovsky, housing critic for the provincial New Democratic Party.
"This is a deal that once again has no housing in it," Chudnovsky said. "It divides pre-development costs and defines post-development organization, but delivers no homes for people who need them."
Chudnovsky said he was also "leery" of what looked like "steps toward the privatization of social housing" in the vaguely worded memo.
"This memo provides a clue as to why BC Housing is in such a rush to evict residents from Little Mountain," Chudnovsky added. "They're simply selling off one social housing project to pay for another."
'We're gonna get it done'
Minister Coleman said the lack of committed funding is merely a technicality.
"I can't make a commitment on behalf of government in a fiscal sense until I know that the building is actually ready to go," Coleman told The Tyee. "But I know that within our fiscal framework, we can make these things happen. And that's what our intention is to do."
Coleman said he is working to bring federal and private funding partners into the deal: "We don't want to be the only ones at the dance." But he specifically denied that funding for the 12 towers is contingent on money from Ottawa, the AWOL Dobell plan, the Little Mountain sale, or anything other than Vancouver's approval of development permits.
"If Vancouver gets six sites ready in the next year, we'll fund six buildings. If they get 12 sites ready, we'll fund 12 buildings," Coleman said. "We're gonna get it done."
NIMBYs neighbours waiting in wings
Chudnovsky was also critical of the deal's Olympic dream.
"I laughed when I read the timeline," Chudnovsky said. "Neither do I believe they will actually break ground in the fall of 2008, nor do I believe that if they do begin construction in late 2008 they will finish any of these 100-unit buildings by mid-2010."
Twelve New Towers
New housing for the homeless is being planned for the following 12 sites. Unit totals are approximate, and likely to change during design process.
| 505 Abbott St. | 120 |
| 675-691 E. Broadway | 100 |
| 1134 Burrard St. | 100 |
| 3212-28 Dunbar St. | 50 |
| 1607-15 West 7th Ave. | 80 |
| 1050 Expo Blvd. | 100 |
| 1233-51 Howe St. | 100 |
| 606 Powell St. | 100 |
| 1721-23 Main St. | 80 |
| 215-225 W. 2nd Ave. | 100 |
| 1308 Seymour St. | 100 |
| 590 Alexander St. | 100 |
| Total | 1,130 |
Source: BC Housing.
The NDP critic noted that even when these 1,100-odd homes are finished, BC Housing will still fall short of providing the 3,200 new units called for by VANOC's own housing committee.
Yet to be heard from are Vancouver's legions of neighbourhood critics, whose passion for guerrilla-style NIMBYism is legendary. One year ago this month, 500 angry Westsiders turned out for a meeting of the Dunbar Residents Association in response to rumours that supportive housing would be built on a city owned site on Dunbar at 16th. Subsequent fearmongering spawned an anonymous entity called NIABY -- Not In Anyone's Back Yard --- that crusades against what it calls "housing projects for drug addicts" citywide. What was then a rumour is now a deal awaiting council approval.
The 12-tower deal provides three opportunities for concerned citizen groups to express themselves: at the Dec. 12 council meeting, at neighbourhood meetings slated for February, and at the Development Permit Board, which is expected to review these fast-track applications in June of 2008.
The deal is nonetheless likely to be approved by Vancouver City Council. It was crafted by the ruling Non-Partisan Association, and is supported by opposition councillors including Vision Vancouver's Raymond Louie.
"This is a step in the right direction," Louie said, quickly adding, "Until the province commits the money, there is no assurance that any of these units will be built."
I don't think we're done here
Coleman said the Vancouver deal has been in the works for more than a year, and that similar deals are pending across the province.
"Vancouver gets a lot of the focus, but we're also working with Victoria on three sites, with Kelowna on a site, with Surrey on two or three sites," Coleman said. Other B.C. communities have expressed interest, he said, but "nobody else has come forward with a piece of land."
In addition to these new buildings, BC Housing continues to acquire existing buildings across the province. In much the same way he purchased 10 residential hotels last spring, Coleman has subsequently acquired buildings in Kamloops, North Vancouver and Quesnel.
Provincial housing expenditures have grown from $125 million to more than $350 million annually since Coleman assumed the portfolio only two years ago.
"I don't think we're done here," Coleman said. "We continue to do."
Related Tyee stories:
- More Homeless than Athletes in 2010
Can Vancouver's Olympic pride be saved? - Vancouver Losing SROs Faster than It Can Replace Them
Based on figures in city's own report. - Homeless in Suburbia
Why shelters outside of Vancouver are filling up - Seven Solutions to Homelessness
Each is working somewhere else, and will save money and lives here.
![[Tyee]](http://thetyee.cachefly.net/ui/img/ico_fishie.png){kind=small}
- 'The Kids Are All Right'
- 'Leave Your Shoes On'
- Glaciers, BC Hydro's Melting 'Batteries'
- Frankie Rose Makes Life Tougher for Journalists
- Too Much Energy Used to Mine, Move Bitumen Says BC Firm
- Becoming the Ethical Hunter
- Shadow Workers of the World, Revolt!
- Three Ryan Gosling Pickup Techniques that Don't Work in Real Life
- Could SOPA Pervade Canadian Copyright Law?
- Would You Buy a Used Car from These Libs?
- Shadow Workers of the World, Revolt!
- Economist Calls Gateway Pipeline an Inflationary 'Threat'
- Bill Rees' Last Lecture
- Too Much Energy Used to Mine, Move Bitumen Says BC Firm
- Is Canada Ignoring Signs of a Coming Economic Collapse?
- Harper in China
- How First Nations Are Gearing Up for Legal Battle Against Gateway
- Eleven Oily Questions for Every MP
- Remembering Lloyd Dykk's Wit, Generosity and Superb Prose
- BC Child Care Advocates in Geneva to Complain to UN
- BC, You Love You
- Shadow Workers of the World, Revolt!
- Who Pays Huge Power Bills for Clark's Gas Plants?
- Make It the Canadian Webcasting Corporation
- Harper in China
- When the Prize Is a Chance to Toil on BC's Farms
- Three Ryan Gosling Pickup Techniques that Don't Work in Real Life
- Would You Buy a Used Car from These Libs?
- Time to Zip John Baird's Loose Lips
- Foreign Trade Zones Eyed for Vancouver, Prince Rupert, Prince George
94
Login or register to post comments
Cycling Commuter
4 years ago
Seize $10 million from each of 30 top drug dealers to finance.
If the $300 million for these housing units is raised by seizing $10 million in assets from each of the 30 biggest drug dealers in B.C., that would be perfect. On the other hand, if the $300 million is raised through property transfer taxes and other regressive taxes squeezed out of people who work for a living at productive jobs, then it will amount to increased housing opportunities for drug addicts who come here from all across Canada at the expense of decreased housing opportunities for working people in B.C.
RickW
4 years ago
Even Liberals Can Come Up With The Germ...
...of a good idea. Lorne Mayencourt proposed establishing a self-sustaining community, modelled along these lines:
http://www.sanpatrignano.org/page.php?catid=214
IAMC
4 years ago
Skid Row LA
I just read an extremely detailed and long article written about Skid Row in Los Angeles covering 40 years.
I can't possibly tell the whole story right now, but the one thing that came out of this exhausted investigation was that the worst enemy of the homeless, mentally ill and drug addicted, is the group of so called activists, ACLU types that did more to screw up the neighborhood (hood) more than the police and government workers who were given the job to help these people out.
They proclaim the rights for these people to screw up. And be supported by society.
It's all a civil liberties thing.
There were groups that followed every cop around with a video camera, just waiting for them to screw up.
When the ACLU didn't have any evidence, they just made it up. They sued the LAPD with so many lawsuits, that the City of LA had up to 600 hundred lawsuits facing them at any given time.
They have tried everything they could in LA to get people working or at least have a shower, but are constantly thwarted by these helpers to the poor.
Federal judges, who are mostly democratic appointees in California, back up these activists every time.
They sight The Bill of Rights and Constitution in a perverse way.
There is no parallel to this activism in Canada, yet.
But it's there. VANDU, The Pivot's and the like.
They are making headway in LA. They have taken the 'broken windows' approach.
They are now able to do sanitary work to the sidewalks and back lanes, by taking almost a Haz Mat approach, because the run off from everyone defacating in the streets, was more than the health board would allow to go into the sewer system, all at one time.
You can be too liberal.
Please try to let those that have the resources to help end poverty, like even the Provincial Govt., and give them a chance to help, without unleashing the moonbats at them.
morechatter
4 years ago
"It's All A Civil Liberties Thing"
I hear what your saying but its unclear how organizations who set out to aid civilians prove to be a hindrance to those in need of help? Okay I think it all goes like when civilians have their civil liberties violated and find recourse through advocacy and financial restitution that's the problem is that right? Thats the problem right is it cost right taxpayers right when governments set out to deny people their civil liberties and therefore its the activist fault is that right when police and etc. are hell bent on helping but the resources are being all used up by those activists is that right because the police etc where busy denying civilians their civil liberties? Its an interesting theory my kids often use it and it goes like this it all your fault and you made me do it.
alive
4 years ago
NIMBY
It is interesting that people who are down and out, can be accomodated in Vancouver, while "regular" citizens cannot afford to live there!
It would make sense to make cheap housing available in places where population growth might be needed; but the politicians know that NIMBY'ism would surface immediately,"not in my backyard" sort of a thing.
Meanwhile it is ok to ensure that the "undesireables" stay in the area where they already are tolerated because others have fled the area.
We have had great discussions about for instance doctors being required to start practicing in areas where they are needed, instead of all flocking to the major centres; why not a similar attitude towards those who need our help in finding a place to live?
Yes, no doubt we must provide housing, but there is no need to insist that it has to be in the same old haunts!
If we are worried about bad habits like stealing and drugs, it would be good to relocate them away from the problem-areas.
Of course that would take political guts,and this sort of patch-up approach is easier to justify to the voters.
On one hand we want to populate downtown areas and on the other we build housing to retain the very people that scared the regular citizens away to the outlying districts.
It is a sorry state where some people have to rely on "charity" in order to live, but when in need any housing anywhere, should be preferable to a cardboard box in a doorway!
morechatter
4 years ago
Its Not That Simple
Homelessness is not about being dirty, scary, addicted and mentally impaired no we leave that to our governments? Its about affordability and availability. I don't like government managing housing there should be no need as the market should encompass all it citizens. Don't get me wrong build away I say if it means less people on our streets as world standards it is inhumane to force your citizens to live off the streets or in poor camps. Are they silly for seeing the tragedy in the situation of a country who boosts of its great wealth but pushes it citizens to the streets without much hope? Maybe but I'm thinking Not! No there is a better way and building big units isn't the answer either people don't want them in their communities and people don't want to live in them either as they are discriminatory in practice. Look over there its the poor house. No there are better ways to elevate costs involving the homeless or about homeless than direct government involvement but we'll take the cash please. However I do have to question some of the going ons as far as private contracts go as they do not seem to be hitting the mark as far as housing goes.
Skywalker
4 years ago
I almost gave coleman a pat on the back...
then I remembered that this is the normal procedure for governments like Campbell's. You create a problem, then come up with a partial solution and think how wonderful are we!
nightbloom
4 years ago
Pardon the interruption, but
Pardon the interruption, but here's one for The Tyee peanut gallery:
Spanish King Tells Chavez to "Shut Up"...to his face
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8SR2R2O1&show_article=1&image=large
SharingIsGood
4 years ago
It ain't perfect, but...
It took too long to happen. Too much shame had to befall the government. It ain't perfect, but at least it is a start.
I would much rather see the vast majority of the homeless (just down and out folks, disabled people, and the working poor) being invited to all communities to live in housing similar to what one finds in local neighbourhoods.
Many of the young people (teenagers) come to the city because they are running away from abusive situations, or they have been given few boundaries by their parents or because it looks glamourous. These young people need something to go to that is better than what is offered by the street and pimps. They need hostels, knowledgeable and caring adults, and a way of earning a clean living until they decide what is best for them.
The hardcore drug users and the people suffering from disorders that keep them from including themselves in healthy situations may need some bit of wharehousing/shelter-like places; but not both groups together as one unless addictions issues (self-medicating) are a huge part of the disorder. I think we should just provide drugs and alcohol for those who are addicted: I think it is cheaper and easier for everyone concerned.
If we provide drugs, alcohol and housing, then pimps wouldn't have nearly as tight a grip on their girls. Smash and grabs perpetrated by addicts stealing TVs, computers, stereos and tools only to get 10 - 20 cents on the dollar wouldn't be happening. Guns and violence would have few reasons to exist. Our emergency wards would become less crowded with people committing acts of violence. Substances could be controlled and the likelihood of accidental overdoses and problems associated with dirty needles and impure subtances would shrink considerably. Gangs would lose their power. We could provide counselling programs for those wishing to quit their addictions or move toward harm reduction with the money we save in insurance fees, legal costs and jail sentences.
We are so stupid about the way we go about helping people get healthy after they have headed down or been taken down bad roads. We have to give up the blame game and learn to be compassionate.
Frank
4 years ago
IAMC
No one denies that you conservatives love poor people so much you increased their numbers by 5 million in the US since Bush became president.
Awesome, yet you want to give the credit for that increase to the ACLU?
By the way, when referencing an "extremely detailed and long article" you might want to say who the source was so the rest of us like-minded people can go there and read it for ourselves and be equally enlightened.
Stump
4 years ago
Quote:If the $300 million
The top two would be BCLD and Imperial Tobacco I guess. Don't know who ranks number 2 to 30.
Stump
4 years ago
oops.
I mean numbers 30 thru 30.
Stump
4 years ago
dang it
I mean 3 thru 30. Like Barbie says... math is hard.
Bailey
4 years ago
Baffling brains
I suppose this is in the way of a prediction.
Dan Rather was in town taking pictures of the Liberal's creations in the Eastend lately. They've realized how bad it looks, and that they will absolutely have to move people out for several weeks in 2010, so...
I think they will start to build a couple of these. They will take the money from healthcare, which they want to cripple anyway, or from someplace like that. The contracts will go to Liberal contributers, foreign firms by preference, and use imported labour at below minimum wage. Nevertheless it will all go terribly wrong and cost overruns will ensue.
No proper audit will be done.
After the olympics, they will declare bankruptcy, as indicated by their insistance that all major public service union contracts come up for renegotiation shortly after the circus leaves town. Teachers, healthcare workers, government workers, nurses.
The building will cease, and union demands in the negotiations under way will be blamed.
The homeless, by now displaced from public view, will be left to fend for themselves in whatever Burnaby or Surrey neighbourhoods voted NDP in the last election.
The Lower East Side will have by then been committed to an urban renewal like Gastown was last time around.
And it will all be because of the "fast ferry fiasco".
SharingIsGood
4 years ago
Jaded!
Bailey, you are brilliant. It is such a shame that I believe you wise as well.
murdock
4 years ago
Commitment.
Whenever I read/hear of anyone using the phrase committed, I am reminded of the statement:
"In bacon and eggs, the chicken was involved, the pig was committed."
I very much doubt that any member of any government anywhere is that committed.
RickW
4 years ago
And it will all be because of the "fast ferry fiasco".
Lovin' it!!!
But don't sweat it, Bailey. According to James Lovelock, we're going to hell in a handbasket anyway. It's just the Libs wanna get a leg up on Ragnarök.......
realisticman
4 years ago
Right on Bailey
Before the Liberals came to power the Eastend was completely devoid of any poverty. Wasn't it! And anyone coming to the downtown East-Side of Vancouver from somewhere else, to shoot-up or pimp themselves or get wasted on booze or crack, only came here because they wanted to increase the number of losers and show how nasty the Liberals really are.
The United States beat us to the punch with the inscription on the Statue of Liberty, which reads:
Ideas please on what we should perhaps erect and inscribe upon at the border with Burnaby.
KevinC
4 years ago
Homeless = all drug addicts?
No. But so many seem to jump to this conclusion. Where, when, how and why did this myth take hold?
G West
4 years ago
Oh I don't know...
This report certainly seems to indicate this is a growing and not a shrinking problem R/Man:
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060921/vancouver_homeless_060921/20060921/
Did you forget this:
When Vancouver bid for the 2010 games, federal, provincial and municipal governments pledged to protect the city's rental housing and ensure no one would be left homeless because of the Games.
Perhaps we could have that inscribed prominently in place of 19th century folderol on a French statue erected on Bedloe's Island. Perhaps we could have it projected on the dome of BC Place during the opening ceremonies.
Just remember that headline:
Vancouver homeless population may triple by 2010
and continue to pretend that Campbell is doing anything much for anybody outside of his small circle of friends...among whom, I'd suggest, he ought to number your own good self. It takes real dedication to actually pretend that what we see is NOT what we get in this province.
Bought any nice parkland lately?
Many people have a different idea about who the real 'losers' are.
SharingIsGood
4 years ago
KevinC
I couldn't agree with you more KevinC, the homeless have been unfairly labled. I worked with homeless people with addictions when I lived in the city. Many of the young people who lived on the street became users so they could escape from their feelings of loneliness, deppression, and anxiety. Self-esteem often deteriorates when one lives on the street; and, if one can't find a warm bed, often the cheapest solution for the night is to get blasted. Alcohol was generally the drug of choice, but pills were also a cheap way through 8 hours of cold and rain. I think it is easy to imagine that if one found him or herself living on the street for any length of time, one might just join in a party if it were offered.
North America has about 1% of its population suffering from schizophrenia. Easily another 1% are effected in such ways as to fall within the "schizo" spectrum but they are not classified as schizophrenics. We also have people who are born with brain damage as a result of being given alcohol while they were in utero. Many of these people, as well as those suffering from a myriad of other forms of mental illness and physical illness are not treated well by our culture. They find it difficult to find and maintain housing. We need to be kind to people who are homeless. Everyone needs a home: a place to wash up, get a drink of water, store belongings, go to bed: feel safe and warm.
BC Mary
4 years ago
Jeez, G
... but you are good.
Bailey, too.
A pleasure to read your comments.
Was just watching a piece about WWII Sergeant Tommy Prince, a brilliantly inventive, courageous man whose golden years in Canada were spent as a homeless person.
Now they're going to re-name a town after him.
realisticman
4 years ago
I agree
with you, SharingIsGood, those in dire need should be helped and the mentally ill in particular. This government is doing that, although more needs to be done and there are difficult issues relating to re-incarcerating some metal sufferers and some chronic substance abusers. It was Mark Smith of Triage Emergency Services & Care Society said, "This government has done more homelessness than any government in history, and I've been in this for 27 years".
G West
4 years ago
Tongue in cheek
I'm sure Mark Smith wouldn't want to bite the hand that feeds him R/Man.
Before you decide to put too much stock into that little gem - which you already tried to drop here once before to equally negative effect - I suggest you carefully read the following:
http://www.firstunited.ca/advocacy%20journal.htm
Stump
4 years ago
for... or against
Very true. Unfortunately, what we need is a gov't who'll do something AGAINST homelessness.
Skywalker
4 years ago
And it will all be because of the "fast ferry fiasco".
We should add that the Convention Center will make an equal contribution.
realisticman
4 years ago
Triage Schmiarge
I guess theses guys are not wanted around here;
We are one of Vancouver's leading providers of housing and support to people challenged by homelessness, mental illness, addiction and poverty.
These guys want the lawyers instead:
Pivot Legal Society
lynn
4 years ago
Brilliantly "clairvoyant", Bailey
Brilliantly "clairvoyant" Bailey. ;-) I'm saving that one.
Excellent suggestion of yours, too, Skywalker....re: "The Convention Center Catastrophe".
lynn
4 years ago
...and Stump
...and Stump, as one who practices Barbie math myself ;-), you completely redeemed yourself with this wry volley back to realisticman:
Quote:
"Very true. Unfortunately, what we need is a gov't who'll do something AGAINST homelessness".
G West
4 years ago
Why not look at what Triage actually does?
Well, this is from THEIR website:
There has been significant growth in the number of homeless poeople counted region-wide, almost doubling from 1,121 persons in 2002 to 2,174 persons in 2005. – GVRD Homeless Count 2005.
So how does that actually square with what you've been suggesting R/man? Those dates actually match the Campbell dictatorship and would seem to indicate that - despite all the jolly talk about how great Campbell is at solving the homelessness 'problem' - that the problem increased by about 100% in his first term.
I'd wager the situation is at least another 50% worse today.
So what, exactly, is Mark Smith with his 28 - bed emergency centre actually achieving?
Every indicator I know of shows that this situation is not improving.
G West
4 years ago
And in the 45 - unit Princess Rooms facility
Smith tells us this story of success:
There's no reference I could find for the asterix by the way. As for the rest of the so-called 'outcomes' listed above...Well, it's nice to know they don't admit people and then evict them..
realisticman
4 years ago
Revealing
Thank you for your thoughtful and revealing comments.
I wonder where Triage Emergency Services & Care Society went wrong. I wondered why so many posters here belittle, joke and scorn at them. Perhaps it was their claim to be non political. All the regular hard-socialist posters here are all-political, all-the-time, it seems. They confirm in their collective mocking that they couldn't care less about the people that Triage helps, they are just part of the poverty industry associated with media and information. Their job is to attack the government in the media. Tomorrow, whatever the subject, the job is attack - no importance given whatsoever the the story or the substance. I suppose every cause has to have its little soldiers.
Grumpy
4 years ago
And now, here is the real story.........
.......The IOC is putting pressure on the Campbell government to improve housing for the homeless. Faced with real fears of civil unrest during the 2010 Winter Olympics, by homeless activists, the IOC is telling Campbell to do something, or....... "Hello Salt lake City, how fast can you get your Olympic facilities up and running?" "Oh 6 months, very good, thank you."
With the 12 towers the IOC can say, "Look here the provincial government has created over 1,000 new rooms for the poor, see what happens when the Olympics come to town."
SharingIsGood
4 years ago
Triage - RMan
Triage could be doing a number of things very well; however, they may be like the buddhist monk on the beach returning starfish to the water during an extremely low tide on an extremely hot day. Yes, the lone monk is making a difference in the lives of the starfish he deals with on that day, but unless there are many monks out there on a daily basis, the vast majority of starfish on the beach are in for a horrific time of it. With (minimally) 3000 - 5000 homeless cruising the GVRD, Triage cannot effectively deal all of their needs - otherwise they wouldn't be homeless.
It is sad that the number of these people are increasing so dramatically, but, what else could we have expected? I didn't expent anything else, seeing the cutbacks being made to MCFD and Social Services in the years since this gov't took over.
Prior to the Liberals, the NDP had already made the ministries that deal with services to people run about as efficiently as they could: they downsized through attrition and they developed integrated service delivery as the standard of practice. This eliminated overserving of clients and led to better teamwork between all Ministries, better outcomes for people in need.
Our Liberal government has been following the Alberta model - right down to the Olympics above caring for your people. Hell, we even have Klein hanging about with the Fraser Institute to help us be more like them. The sad thing is that the homeless have been increasing in Alberta as well. The homeless number in the thousands (minimally 5000-6000) in just Edmonton and Calgary - and those cities get really cold in the winter!
http://www.homelessawareness.ca/
http://www.moresafehomes.net/initiatives_main.htm
Bailey
4 years ago
Dear Grumpy
May we have a source for this assertion about the IOC and the Campbells?
In the past, there has been a lot of corruption exposed in both parties operations, so why exactly do you think the IOC has threatened to take the games to Utah if these towers aren't built?
I don't think I've read anything like this anyplace. I'm sure I'd remember if I had.
To begin with, it's coming on for 2008 here, and it generally takes more than two years to get permits in Vancouver, then another oh, say, 18 months or two years each to build. Starting now and fast tracking every detail they could hardly complete two apartment buildings, let alone twelve, by then.
And nobody even pretends to believe that they would continue building after the games are over and the European tourists have gone home.
G West
4 years ago
R/Man: Where do you get this from?
You're the one who posted the utterly ridiculous comment that this government had done more for the homeless than any other government in BC history. Remember.
Foolish is as foolish does and THAT was a foolish statement. If you posted it out of context it seems to me that your motives are the questionable ones.
Grumpy
4 years ago
Bailey, the last thing the
Bailey, the last thing the IOC wants is the homeless brigade crashing their party. The odd riot would be not condusive to the Olympic (TM) spirit or bank account.
I would wager very strongly that Campbell has been forced to deal with the homeless/eastside fiasco under duress. The IOC can put a lot of pressure on (all hush hush from the public of course) in the backrooms.
They did the same sort of thin in Athens where vast sums of money were spent on a politically prestigious metro and frowns from the Olympic committee, saw invested in a very sorely needed and very much cheaper tram line.
The last thing the IOC wants is the homeless brigade using the event to further their cause.
IAMC
4 years ago
As I said
I knew that the moonbats would emerge to screw things up again.
Imagine what could be accomplished without them?
Progress of any kind is under threat from liberal values that demand a consensus that is impossible to achieve. So nothing can ever get done.
I sometimes think that there is no hope in democracy. Maybe a benevolent dictatorship might be a more workable system !
Then I wake up and remind myself that the world always gets better, in spite of obstacles.
I just wish liberals could actually do something to help people, rather than hate people.
G West
4 years ago
perhaps you, Ron, and Mark Smith as well
Should take a little time to look at this report and then reconsider whether it isn't time to issue anothe Press Release about how "well" things are going.
http://www.eia.gov.bc.ca/publicat/pdf/LAD_2007.pdf
realisticman
4 years ago
Foolish is as foolish does and THAT was a foolish statement.
G West
Surely you're not going to tell me that this went over your head. If you'd care to look the quote from me was a quote from the leader of Triage. If you think, as you say, that this is , "utterly ridiculous", then you are shooting the messenger. I'm sure you know the difference between a statement and a quote, so we have to believe that G West thinks that he knows better than someone who's been working at helping people, specifically the homeless and the mentally ill, for almost 30 years. Can you trump 30 years West? I expect not it's just more of the war of words.
G West
4 years ago
The statement was ridiculous
I don't care who said it. Although I can understand someone who was soliciting more funds from some government agency or NGO saying it as an attempt to get more money out of these thugs. This is the man’s business. In addition, I’m not suggesting he isn’t doing good work – just that that statement is ridiculous. Period.
The Campbell government - as the report I posted shows and as my own personal experience and observations confirm - has not done more for the homeless than any other government in history.
It is simply not true and I don't care whether you believe it or not. Every single month the number of people using (and desperately needing to use) social services in this province goes up. Every single indicator I'm aware of alone with my own eyes confirms this.
How long I've been doing volunteer service - and getting not a bloody penny for it from any government is none of your business. Suffice to say it has extended over 5 provincial administrations and the Campbell government is the absolutely lead-pipe worst at doing anything except helping its friends. Moreover, believe me; none of its friends are mired in poverty, suffering from disabilities, drug addicted and/or homeless…instead they join the Premier, dressed in spandex, to ride around (by invitation) with Lance Armstrong – another great avatar of playing by the rules. Come on off it – the disconnect is just to great. Time for a little truthiness.
I am not shooting anyone - I'm writing the precise truth as I see it and as the statistics and record of the Campbell Government confirm.
Did you look at the study? DO you understand what it means? Do you understand how criminal it is that about 1 in 5 children in this province lives in poverty? At the same time that this government, led by a convicted criminal, crows about how wonderful BC is and how it’s the ‘best’ place on earth. For God’s sake – have you no shame? How can you constantly apologize for this monster?
Or do you only care about people who say things that make you feel good so you can continue to live the life-style you enjoy?
I can, and have, trumped everything you've ever posted realisticman - and it if weren't true you wouldn't get so upset about it.
IAMC
4 years ago
No poor here
There are no poor people here.
None.
The word poor has no meaning really. It's all relative.
Who decides who is poor?
Mr. West?
Anyone who is not Bill Gates is poor.A poor person in Vancouver appears as a rich person to someone in Darfur.
It's a convenient vehicle for the moonbats to use to advance their own useless agenda.
Get moonbats out of the way, and then we can help people.
If you are poor here in BC, then you are either mentally ill or disabled. There is no other possible explanation
There are no poor people in BC that are not either crazy or simple physically unable to move.
So it's not an issue of poverty, it's an issue of mental health.
There is no evil empire that wants to enslave us into a life of poverty.
That is what moonbats think, but they are wrong.
The only obstacle any of us has is ourselves. And unless we are disabled or mentally ill, there is no excuse for poverty.
Even a blind squirrel can find nuts in BC.
Why won't you liberals admit that we live in a wonderful country with unlimited opportunity, and that the only problems we have are people looking for problems that don't exist.
Do you not have something better to do?
Bailey
4 years ago
I'll decide for you
First there are no poor here, none. Then there are no poor except the disabled or mentally ill. Do you ever even listen to yourself?
You forgot widows and orphans. You forgot the victims of crime, though in the present administration that category might be said to include every taxpaying working family.
You forgot the slaves, forced to work for less than subsistance so that others, better connected or luckier, can be wealthy in the extreme. Or the damaged downtrodden who have been treated so badly their spirits bleed hope.
I would have little fear of rational objection if I said that any family who lives in a car because they got bounced out of their apartment for inability to pay are poor. Or anybody found sleeping behind a dumpster or in a cardboard box or under a bridge.
IAMC, I think I would classify you as poor, although a poor what exactly, I will prefer not to say publically.
If you see, then deny what you see, you may be just a liar. But if you see, yet refuse to even believe what you see, you are also a fool.
IAMC
4 years ago
Slaves?
I am talking about here, and now.
I am not talking about a situation where people are exploited into poverty.
This is not happening here and now.
Here and now tgere exists a wonderful world, full of hope an opportunity.
Laziness is mental illness.
The only people exploiting people into poverty are moonbatts, who very existence depends on people screwing up and getting themselves into unfortunate positions that they themselves caused, with the help of enabling moonbats, who are a scurge on our society. Who believe that if you are not making $50,000.00 per year, you a poor VICTIM of capitalist exploitation, by some bogeyman, that I have never met, but according to these moonbats are you and me.
We cause these poor victims their misery.
This is not true, and I will not wear this guilt, sorry. Find another reason to justify your useless existence.
SharingIsGood
4 years ago
Moonbat - IAMC
"Moonbats" is a derogatory term used to put down people who favour left-leaning policies. As people who lean to the left do not find this word to their liking and they do not use it to descibe one-another, using the term is both, rude and bullisome. Bullisome people often resort to name-calling when they feel unaccepted. It is one of they ways that they use to attempt to maintain power and control.
Namecalling is also a first step toward disenfranchising one or more people: if you give people a nasty name, then it is easier to be mean to them. If you give people a derogatory name, it is easier not to care about their needs. IAMC shows how this works when he describes moonbats as a "scourge on our society". He has called people names they do not like then he describes the name as a scourge....
I consider anyone who is homeless, no matter the means that got him/her there, to be living in poverty. Our climate does not treat people without homes kindly. Our society does not look favourably on people who lack the means to keep themselves clean and in clean clothing. After all, wealthy people generally do not wish to live with the "great unwashed". Being homeless means one does not have a reasonable means of staying clean and safe. Being homeless means that one has difficulty protecting one's belongings. Being homeless means that one has difficulty storing food and staying healthy. Unlike Darfor, people cannot live outside during the winter time. Further, I would hope that Canadians do not measure their existence by the most extreme squallor and deprivation that some may live through for some period of time.
Our federal and provincial governments have allowed the social safety net to erode. They have turned a blind eye to poverty. This country has continued to follow the fascist philosophy put into place by Thatcher, Mulroney, Reagan and Kohl. The purses and future infrastructure of both, the working class and the middle class have been robbed to power the military industrial complex and enable the rich to get richer. This is not rocket science: all one need do is compare the lives of Canadians during the last 25 years to their lives for the 25 years prior to that. It is pathetic.
IAMC
4 years ago
Pot calls kettle black
No sooner do I get a lecture from a moonbat about using the word moonbat, that this same person in the same posting calls Thatcher, mulroney, Reagan and Kohl, fascists?
I rest my case.
I'm going to the Pub.
SharingIsGood
4 years ago
fascism definition
Using the definition below, I'd say that the the leaders I named in my last post as following a fascist philosophy did just that - as have the Federal Liberal and Conservative governments, the BC Liberal party, Alberta Klein's party, Tony Blair, Presidents: Bush (Senior and Junior) and Clinton, though he backed away form and sloweded its advance. There have been others world leaders who have done the same.... Note that when the MSM is part of the military-industrial complex, supression of criticism is very easy.
a nationalistic and anti-Communist system of government like that of Italy 1922-43, where all aspects of society are controlled by the state and all criticism or opposition is suppressed
Modern Language Association (MLA):
"fascism." Kernerman English Multilingual Dictionary. K Dictionaries Ltd. 12 Nov. 2007. .
SharingIsGood
4 years ago
errata
sloweded = slowed
others world leaders = other world leaders
IAMC
4 years ago
Sharing
[OFFENSIVE COMMENT REMOVED HERE...]
Ralph Klein, Ronald Reagan, Brian Mulroney, Margaret Thatcher, Pope John and people of their ilk are my heroes.
They brought down the USSR and liberated Eastern Europe from communism.
They got our own economies to stop pickpocketing the taxpayers.
They are responsible for the wonderful world we live in today.
One that can afford to fight terrorism with great leaders like George Bush and Tony Blair.
I guess we have a different view on things, don't we.
[...HERE...]
Your side has lost. Haven't you figured that out yet?
[...AND HERE. ONCE AGAIN, PLEASE REFRAIN FROM PERSONAL SNIPING. -TYEE EDITOR.]
G West
4 years ago
So, Ron
Still no response on the Rush for the Nobel Prize gambit eh?
Let's just deal with one of your heroes - Brian Mulroney.
What kind of terrorist fighter did you say he was?
I guess you've forgotten Air India and who was the PM at the time - how after the bombing he sent condolences to the Indian Prime Minister and said 'nothing' about the Canadians who were killed, by Canadians, on that flight.
Why would he be your hero Ron?
I won't even mention his latest embarrassment - or that each one of your heroes has something equally, if not more, disgusting and shameful in their past.
Stump
4 years ago
moonbat
Being nocturnal creatures... I would expect moonbats. Ya know? Like water-fish. Sun-bats would be odd however.
But this... this sez it all - two truths from a ding-bat:
Yes, no doubt a dictatorship would agree with you IAMC. Because you assume its policies would agree with your philosophy.
And yep, things are getting better. There's more and more social democracies. Compassion and caring continues to better the lot of many, despite the free-marketers (LOL, such a misnomer for welfare-capitalists) who'd like things nasty and brutish). With every excess the plutocrats and oligarchs put another nail in their own coffin.
Your time is almost up little fella. All the bleating to the contrary won't make you anything more than a sheep looking to be fleeced and butchered by the very crowd of which you THINK you are a part.
Good luck with that.
IAMC
4 years ago
You can hate
me, I don't care, but pretty please, stop trying to live off your poor and downtrodden ( by you ) and let them reach their potential and dry up this class warfare that you wage at their expense.
As this thread started, I only wanted to point out that based on experience elsewhere, special interest groups pop up and gravitate to the weakest element of our society.
Those that are mentally ill and disabled.
They don't try to help them. They use them.
This is disgusting.
[OFFENSIVE COMMENT REMOVED. AGAIN. -EDITOR.]
I see no other reason that they would purposely try to screw up the lives of unfortunate others.
G West
4 years ago
Still ignoring the real world Ron
How come?
IAMC
4 years ago
Come how
Come how? I guess I follow the rules by making a statement longer than seven letters like GW's brilliant " how come? "
Mental illness is indeed a terrible affliction. Let all of us give GW what he or she is enlightened to, which is to be enlightened to make a perfect example of someone who is motivated to see people fail, so that he or she, can validate their own wasted lives.
It's easy to look good compared to mentally ill and disabled amongst us, and I am offended by people who do this.
G West
4 years ago
Nope RON
You just ignore reality and you don't look good at all - a lot like your good friends Rush Limbaugh and your girl friend Ann Coulter who is busy saying that the Jewish people to be ‘perfected’. Do you plus them equal the 'we' you're talking about?
You have some VERY nice friends. And they live in a very strange and weird place. Some things you don’t like being reminded of – would you like a longer list?
I’d be willing to start with any of the folks you named as your avatars.
IN my view everything you write is offensive to someone.
IAMC
4 years ago
Somebody like you
and I am sure the same thing can be said about you.
But the difference between you and me is simple.
I believe our world is a wonderful experience for all who want to open their eyes and see that everything we want to accomplish is available and the only thing preventing us from reaching our goals is our own self determination, and we are not victims, we are simply wanting to make our own way through life, without any help from those that tell us that we cannot achieve anything because we are victims and pawns to an American imperialistic empire that is only interested in exploiting you to advance their interests.
I am only trying to help the situation.
G West
4 years ago
Perhaps you'd like to discuss this - my simple friend
http://www.city.vancouver.bc.ca/ctyclerk/cclerk/20071113/documents/rr2.pdf
It's the first report of the Civil City Project and in it Geoff Plant - lawyer and former Campbell Government Attorney General, onetime Victoria roommate and confidant of the Premier - says that street homelessness in Vancouver is up 54% from Vancouver's last homelessness count in 2005.
I'll post the good news for you and then you can tell me how great things are 'becoming' Ron. I can't wait because some people sure as hell are victims and some other callous individuals don't give a damn, do they?
Homelessness figures from the last few years for Vancouver:
2002 - 628 homeless
2005 - 1,291 homeless (up 663 people, or +105% from the previous total)
2007 - 2,000 homeless (up 709 people, or +54% from the previous total)
2008 - Projected growth at current rates (+350 per year) 2,350
2009 - Projected at 2,700
2010 - Projected at 3,050
If you happen to see Realisticman, please give him the good news.
Stump
4 years ago
oh puh-leez!
OK, Oprah, thanx for sharing the 'secret'
what a load of bollocks.
realisticman
4 years ago
No Problem
BC continues to do very well on the employment front;
Employment continued to rise in October, jumping an estimated 63,000, split between full and part time. At the same time, the unemployment rate fell to a 33-year low of 5.8%, down 0.1 of a percentage point from September.
Strong labour market across the West
Although employment in British Columbia showed little change in October, it has grown 2.4% since the start of 2007, mainly due to strong growth in trade. In October, the unemployment rate in the province stood at 4.4%, among the lowest rates in Canada.
http://www.statcan.ca/english/Subjects/Labour/LFS/lfs-en.htm
The increase in immigration into BC will help alleviate the shortage of labour and the shortage of housing will probably cause more homeless as the value of properties continue to climb to meet the increased market. Residential construction will continue to increase to meet the growing population and, perhaps, more dense zoning will stimulate in-fill residential construction and innovative uses for the vast alleys of the central city. The continuing availability of money at low interest rates, particularly since higher rates would further damage the manufacturing industries in the East of Canada, will maintain a strong construction industry, both new building and renovations.
The added and continuing economic activity will mean that tax revenue remains strong and will be able to continue to afford to finance the assistance programmes, in this social democracy, for the less fortunate.
ubiquitous
4 years ago
r/man
Any stats in their about personal debt? Probably not an indicator you'll find in your feel good bed time stories. Keep yer head in the sand, alles gut ya?
G West
4 years ago
R/Man
Just read the report.
And, when you're done, go here and read some more:
http://corkyevans.kootenayactivist.ca/blog/
Because if you're not aware of what's really going on, you're actually part of the BIG LIE.
realisticman
4 years ago
If you so desire
ubiquitous, yes, all is good if you wish. Probably much better than ever before in history and, from an abstract but also real perspective, perception can be, and perhaps is, reality.
P.S. On a more practical level, debt, as you hint, could be a serious problem. As long as money is plentiful and interest rates are low the reckless borrowers will be OK. If rates do jump those that have been careful to not overspend will have opportunities to 'help out' those that have become overextended, with bargains galore.
realisticman
4 years ago
He's still around
Didn't Corky abstain last week? I thought perhaps he was on holiday.
realisticman
4 years ago
CCPA comment
So in this context, it could be argued that Harper struck a small blow for social justice by reducing Canada's most notorious regressive tax. Indeed, it could be said that he took a small step towards rectifying the tax unfairness created by former prime minister Jean Chrétien's Liberals.
http://www.thestar.com/article/275455
Encouraging to see Marc Lee coming around and taking an objective, non-partisan stance.
Stephen Harper is not Satan. This may surprise some of my friends on the liberal-left but it is true.
G West
4 years ago
Stephen Harper is SATAN
Give him a majority and you'll find out all the details. As for analysis of the effect of a one point drop in the GST...spare me: The people who need the help need more than a few coins a day.
Take a moment to calculate the impact of a 6% tax on the same purchases experienced by an individual making the minimum wage and someone making $80,000. (Neither of whom can actually afford to live and own their own home in Vancouver by the way)
You'll find the tax impact, on a percentage of income basis, upon identical purchases made by each individual is much less onerous on the person making more money. That's why the damn thing is Regressive rather than, as all taxation should be, progressive.
Are you suggesting that this 'really' helps?
Because if you are, I have a number of properties I'm sure you'd be interested in.
I'll just tell you a fairy story about how much you'll make if you buy them from me - then you cut me a cheque.
Deal?
As for corky abstaining. I'd suggest that's just another feather in his cap.
I know you prefer the BIG LIE though.
happy
4 years ago
If we live in a fascist state
where all criticism of government is suppressed... then how be the Tyee?
realisticman
4 years ago
G West
Oh, I thought that you'd be in agreement with The Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives. Don't you frequently quote them in rebuffs?
G West
4 years ago
I sure do.
As a matter of fact, I have a little quote on the very subject from Bruce Clark of the CCPA.
I'll just paste it in here for you:
For all the bluster, a single parent will save up to $298 this year, $184 in 2008, and $94 in 2009. And that is the maximum possible gain.
These gains will be lower for anyone making less than $38,000 a year - and considering that's the average wage in Canada, we're talking about a lot of working families who have very little to gain from $60 billion in tax cuts.
By 2009, a single individual will get back 39 cents a day and a single parent will get back a measly 25 cents a day from these tax cut announcements.
So, when can I expect that cheque? You seem to be a sucker for smoke and mirrors.
realisticman
4 years ago
and the message is?
What should I forward to Marc Lee?
SharingIsGood
4 years ago
media suppression - Happy
The Tyee is an anomoly in terms of its ability to grow in the current climate. Changes to access of government documents and government procedings have made been greatly diminished in the six years since Campbell assumed power. Freedom of Information requests seem to be handled with disdain. We have heard how it generally takes many months to get access to government documents under FOI. Many documents, themselves, have been sanitized to prevent the govenment from looking badly.
As most of the ownership of MSM is held by very few hands, and those hands fully support the federal Liberals and Conservatives as well as our BC Liberals, we have, in effect, suppression of the criticism of the government. Though less in your face than Musolini's black shirts, it is just about as effective.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentration_of_media_ownership
Other info on this topic:
http://archives.cbc.ca/IDD-1-73-790/politics_economy/concentration_press/
G West
4 years ago
Suit yourself - Rman - suit yourself
Emerson.
The fact is this boondoggle, as everything the Pee Wee does, is to and for his special group. I recall him referring to the NDP as the devil and I cherished the opportunity presented by your quote from Tom Walkom.
Things like that have a way of coming back and biting politicians in the ass - much as the current BM the PM on the take has just proved once again.
realisticman
4 years ago
Media Suppresion?
A half a million - and it's free.
SharingIsGood
4 years ago
if they are on the same team
As Canwest-Global is on the same team as the Provincial Liberals, they are just part of the propaganda machine. They have the same goal.
realisticman
4 years ago
Thumpers of the World Unite!
G West
I'm sure there are a few other good-book thumpers that feel as you do West. Was it the refusal by Harper to re-open the same-sex-marriage debate or his refusal to re-open the women's right to chose debate? Is there a groundswell of fundamentalists, like you, that believe him to be Satan himself! Is this the lull before the almighty storm? Should I go short on bank stocks. Should I snap up a cheap rancher in Orlando?Should we start stockpiling seeds and water?
SharingIsGood
4 years ago
erratum
anomaly = anomoly
happy
4 years ago
Back to the fascist state thing..
Are people in fascist states allowed to vote?
SharingIsGood
4 years ago
I've never meant to imply
I've never meant to imply that Canadian and American governments are full-blown (Mussolini-style) fascist regimes; however, they are certainly pseudo-fascist in that they follow some of the worst liberal (as from liberalism) laissez-faire policies as well as many fascist policies.
Some of the policies of fascism to which this and other neo-Liberal/neo-conservative governments seems to adher:
1. suppress criticism and the citizens right to know through controlling the media.
2. destroy unions whenever possible.
3. abolish labour codes and workers ability to strike.
3. socialism and communism are bad and should be attacked whenever possible.
4. social Darwinism: survival of the fittest. The weak should not be helped: they either pulll themselves together or they can wither.
5. corporatism is good, especially if those corporations work to destroy unions and promote a stratified society. Taxes to corporations are bad. Corporations need to be unfettered to control as much as they need to so they can efficiently add to the millitary-industrial complex.
6. inequality and separate social classes are good. Those on the lower strata deserve fewer rights.
7. deficit spending is good if the money goes to corporate interests with strong ties to the party.
8. the millitary-industrial complex is more important than people's rights and is more important than clean air and clean water.
9. education of working class is not to be too high. Education that teaches fairness and promotes social justice is to be dismantled.
10. dictatorships are best, but if elections must be held, use the media and the manipulation of voting districts whenever possible to achieve the desired effect.
11. Take power away from communities whenever possible. Communities having power means that social justice prevails, and that would be bad.
Stump
4 years ago
rebuff/rebuttal
I think you may have meant to use the word "rebuttal".
happy
4 years ago
So then SIG
Since our governments are democratically elected does that mean everyone who voted them in are fascists at heart? Or do you take the view expressed here often that most people are too dumb to think for themselves?
G West
4 years ago
Realisticman
The world goes on around you. You quoted Tom Walkom and it brought to mind a speech delivered by your good buddy Stephen Harper. Perhaps you don't remember it.
My reference to Satan was as satirical as it is possible to be since I don't believe in Beelzebub anyway.
Here's the Harper quote, by the way:
...the NDP is kind of proof that the Devil lives and interferes in the affairs of men.
Now I'm sure Pee Wee thought that was a funny joke when he made that remark during a speech to the Council for National Policy in June of 1997.
However, you'll forgive me if I don't laugh too hard because I believe the man will destroy the country I love if he ever does manage to cheat and steal and lie his way to a majority government.
Some folks, among them apparently Tom Walkom, think he's just another garden variety political troll. I don't share that opinion - I think he's devious, disingenuous and dangerous and he has the ear of the moneyed elites in this country - a group of out and out liars and thieves who already have far too much power now.
They ought, all of them, to be ridden out of town on a rail – tar and feathers optional.
Actually, if I had my way I'd keep Karlheinz Schrieber here in Canada and deport Mulroney to Germany.
happy: my answer to your question - about 50/50.
Frank
4 years ago
"Hooray-for-everything-man"
I'm glad to hear the world is perfect. Perhaps you could write to all the world's media and let them know, they just don't seem to get it. Feel free to send them links saying the world is indeed perfect.
And I'm up for holding hands and singing kum-ba-ya with all my fellow humans on this glorious spaceship called earth.
I feel so warm inside now, I'm going to go google "perfect world" while I enjoy a cup of hot chocolate next to the fire and run the Monty Python album with "Happy Valley" on it.
SharingIsGood
4 years ago
Happy - Read Erich Fromm
I can't speak for the people who voted these governments in. I do not know their motives.
Erich Fromm's Escape From Freedom may give you some insights as to why people give up their freedom.
Here is a good site if you truly wish to begin education yourself with some of what I have read to help me come to terms with how people give up their freedoms.
http://home.wxs.nl/~brouw724/Frommenglisch.html
I can say that the Campbell governments and the MSM have misled the public about a huge number of things which have been listed at the Tyee countless times. I believe that many people go through life not questioning what is going on and generally believing what is served up by the MSM. If the majority of people get the majority of their information from MSM, then they are ill-informed. As has been said at the Tyee many times, the Campbell government has performed much of what it does in secrecy, and they avoid releasing negative reports. They used taxpayer money to hire media monitors that were directed dirctly from the Premier's office. The BC Rail deal is clothed in secrecy. Question period is a place where our Attorney General and our Premier refuse to comment upon the workings of the government.
Best wishes to you Happy,
BTW, I recognize a Socratic line in your questioning. I hope you are not trying to paint me into a corner or circle me back upon myself. I do not believe that democratically elected MLAs guarantee a true democracy. After all, they have their premier and their leader of the opposition, and they are told the party line. MLAs (and MPs) are rarely released for a free vote, to vote their own conscience. A minority government (with opposition heel-biting) is generally better than an overwhelming majority in any case - no matter whose in charge. Campbell's first term is proof of that.
Frank
4 years ago
"Hooray-for-everything-man"
Aw jeez, I googled "perfect world" and it turns out its a massive multiplayer online game. Nuts.
So I went to Yahoo news and they had all these terrible stories about things happening in the world.
Please write to Yahoo and ask them to quit making things up just to upset us.
Frank
4 years ago
Newsflash
Just coming in over the wire, in case you missed it, OPEC has read Truman/ME2's post and decided to increase production to drive up prices.
Frank
4 years ago
Happy Valley and Prince Walter
Oops, wrong thread.
As Mussolini once said "Excuse me"
happy
4 years ago
Thanks SIG
For your measured response without sarcastic or snide put downs that "some" posters (well one anyway) always interjects into his/her response. I admit I was goading a little but you didn't take the bait, good for you. I can't agree that the MSM always misleeds the public, I will agree that bad news doesn't always get the play that you think it should, but theres absolutely no difference between Canwest and the Tyee itself in that regard. No mention here on the NDP loss in Sask, or what about pot smoking union ferry workers on the Queen of the North? Its just a matter of perspective.
SharingIsGood
4 years ago
thanks for the compliment -Happy
Just to clarify: I really try to avoid absolutes. The scientist in me will not allow for them, but every now and then, the emotional human being in me may take over and use words such as "always" and "never".
Taking the above preface to be true, I didn't try to imply that the "MSM always tries to mislead the public". I actually wrote: "I can say that the Campbell governments and the MSM have misled the public about a huge number of things which have been listed at the Tyee countless times. I believe that many people go through life not questioning what is going on and generally believing what is served up by the MSM. If the majority of people get the majority of their information from MSM, then they are ill-informed...."
I think that the greatest difference between the MSM and the Tyee, is that the Tyee publishes just about everything that the readers write. It publishes the views of people from all places within the political spectrum. The MSM, however, are very selective in publishing letters to the editor. I do note that MSM are also very careful to publish a bit of bad news for the government's they support. After all, if they didn't publish anything bad at all, the word would get out from somewhere about the horrible goings on, and they would then be incredibly obviously biased - so much so that the public just might revolt. So, they publish a little bad news here and there, usually not on the front page. They often give the bad news a bit of a positive spin and they generally try to compare it to something that was done 10 years previously, and they label it as equally bad.
I am so tired of hearing about a deck that a neighbour built for Glen Clark and the Fast Cats that I could just puke. Those items were front page news for months on end and on the nightly news to boot. The MSM still write and talk these events even though those events pale compared to the sell-off of our rights and resources and the mean-spirited way that this government treats working people.
I have listed what I believe to be Liberal scandals on different threads. Perhaps you have read them.
G West
4 years ago
No mention here on the NDP loss in Sask,
You need to read a lot more carefully. It has been mentioned two or three times here ar Tyee since the election.
As usual, you're into goading, not learning mode my friend.
SharingIsGood
4 years ago
Tyee articles - Happy
The Tyee employs but a few writers in comparison to the MSM. They have a small budget. The MSM has covered the NDP loss in Saskatchewan very well. Why should the Tyee use its few resources for this. Also, perhaps they will cover it as a feature article. Note that the Tyee only publishes about 10 items a week.
RE: Saskatchewan: It seems that it was time for the pendulum to swing to the right for awhile. After those people have had a good taste of repression for a term or two, perhaps it will swing back. Right now, I think greed is taking over and they see their energy resources as something that need to be exploited, as has been done in Alberta. Corporatist and capitalist governments are good for exploiting resources: even to the long term detriment of society and the environment.
Possibly pot smoking ferry workers have also been covered by MSM. Perhaps the Tyee has nothing to add.
Frank
4 years ago
happy
What other provincial elections got an article here about the results?
Was there a single instance of another province's election being covered here? I don't recall seeing a story on the Ontario election.
Which is a pretty sad statement about the MSM since the Tyee was billed as an alternative site where you could find stuff the MSM wouldn't print. To say the two are the same makes it sound like you think the MSM are nothing more than an alternative media printing stories that left-wing web sites don't cover.
I agree, that's pretty much what they are, an alternative media for those that lean a bit or quite a bit to the Right.
realisticman
4 years ago
So, Harper's not Satan
G West
No worries West you needn't clarify I frequently, and always initially, consider your comments as satire. I'll send your retraction to the PMO.
As Frank will tell you, if you're not already Frank yourself - which is quite possible, I love this life, it's full of enjoyment, I love laughing, I wouldn't be here if it weren't fun.
G West
4 years ago
I didn't retract anything
Any more than Pee Wee retracted his absurd statement about the NDP. I simply tried to explain it since you didn't seem to understand. I’m a helpful sort of guy – I don’t like people to operate under any illusions.
I'm glad you're having fun - 95% of the people in the world aren't.
That's not only a problem; it's a kind of mental illness.
I see you're still harbouring another psychotic illusion about who or what I am.
As I've said dozens of time before - I speak for myself. You speak for yourself. Frank speaks for himself.
The fact you and a few others can't cope with the reality that many very intelligent, highly educated and extremely well-informed people find your lifestyle more than a little problematic shouldn't trouble you that much. You represent a very, very small minority.
Moreover, the majority of us are getting the picture of what you really care about very clearly.
SO keep posting.
I couldn't make my case anywhere as easily without you acting as my interlocutor. Keep smiling – but watch your back.
Frank
4 years ago
"Hooray-for-everything-man"
Hi Truman
SharingIsGood
4 years ago
G West
G West,
I am sincere in the thanks and praise that I hope you will accept from me. You are a very knowledgeable and literate writer. From what I have surmised from your posts, your goals are altruistic: you stick up for the downtrodden and abused at every turn, never waivering from your search for truth and goodness. The few angry posters, those who would hurl insults at you, would do much better to read and heed your words. You are a gallant knight in their midst. So keep up the good fight; those who try to counter your eloquent pen are either up to no good, or they have much yet to learn - quite possibly both.