B.C. Ferries president and CEO David Hahn defended the high fuel consumption of the new German-built Super C-class vessels by comparing them to the Sprit-class ships, but those ships are much larger.
"A classic example would be [Coastal Celebration] versus a Spirit-class ship,” Hahn said, according to a Times-Colonist article about the newest vessel going into service. “A Spirit takes seven or eight minutes to turn around on each side, this ship doesn't have to do it [because it can load on both ends]. There's very substantial fuel savings there."
But that's comparing apples to watermelons. The Spirit vessels, however, carry 470 vehicles plus 2,100 people. The new German vessels, on the other hand, carry 370 vehicles and 1,600 people.
“David Hahn is trying to put up smoke and mirrors about the new vessels,” said NDP ferry critic Gary Coons. “Comparing new vessels to Sprit-class vessels is just a sign he's reaching for excuses for the vessels . . . There's no comparison in design, size and maneuverability.”
Fuel consumption is a big issue for the ferry company. On Friday the ferry commissioner, Martin Crilly, approved the removal of fuel surcharges and released a chart tracking the rise in fares.
Fares on all routes will drop to below 2003 rates for two months thanks to a $20 million cheque from the provincial government, then return to near their current levels before continuing to climb, the chart said.
Last week The Tyee reported the new ferries have had problems with high fuel consumption, noise and vibrations that may be related to serious design flaws.
Coastal Celebration has not been used since it was put into service on November 21. The Coastal Renaissance was taken out of service four days a week in October, and is expected to be off completely until December 6.
Andrew MacLeod is The Tyee’s Legislative Bureau Chief in Victoria. Reach him here.
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Grumpy
3 years ago
Excuse me, but..............
................the last time I looked at a 'Spirit' Class ferry it can load from the bow and stern. Who is kidding who.
QUOTE: "“A Spirit takes seven or eight minutes to turn around on each side, this ship doesn't have to do it [because it can load on both ends]. There's very substantial fuel savings there."
This pure BS, a Spirit can turn in much less time, but when it does, it is not a full throttle > translation - slower speed = less fuel being consumed.
Here is the real story folks, Hahn, under premier Gordo's orders had boats built in Germany, but guess what, they burn a hell of a lot of fuel, as well they have propeller problems; in the German vernacular they are 'Zitrones' or lemons!
Now Hahn has given Gordo a problem, a big problem, in the past the Libs gleefully used the FastFerry fiasco, ad nauseum, but now their overseas boats aren't up to scratch and maybe just fit into the BC venacular 'another FastFerry fiasco'! How can Gordo and his ilk paste the NDP with FastFerry incompetance, when their version is also a 'Zitrone'.
Well one thing Gordo and his crew will do is just build more SkyTrain because no one in the media except Charlie Smith and the Georgia Straight, ever questions a SkyTrain project!
Zitrones for ever!
happy
3 years ago
Uh, Grumpy
Spirit class boats are, in fact, stern loaders only.
Little hard to take the rest of you're rant seriously. Maybe you should stick to trains
DPL
3 years ago
If cars can drive off the
If cars can drive off the front end of the Spirit class ships. Seems to me that when the Spirit boats dock on the mainland end of things unloading and loading are at the front. They back into dock on the Island end of things. They leave and go round Piers Island on the way to Vancouver. No need to turn around . The propellors don't cavitate or shake windows out of houses either.
happy
3 years ago
To clarify
The Spirit boats CAN load from both ends. My mistake and apologies to Grumpy. What I meant to say was they are single ended, which means they do have to turn around at one end, therfore not as efficient as double enders
jimmy_laroux
3 years ago
happy
That depends what you mean by "efficient". Consider two ferries travelling at the same speed, one a double ender, the other "single-ended". Assuming both have optimised hulls, the "single-ended" ship would experience less drag, no question.
happy
3 years ago
Yes jimmy
"Assuming both have optimised hulls, the "single-ended" ship would experience less drag, no question."
That is true. By efficient, I meant the double enders don't have to turn around half the time when docking. The extra time spent manouvering in the single end design negates any savings made from less drag.
This 'drag issue" could come into play if they were operating on long routes, but this is more of a shuttle type operation where time is critical to maintain the schedule
Frank
3 years ago
happy
You probably don't get a lot of ice on the shores of the Sunshine Coast and might therefore be lacking some experience but I can assure you the stuff you're skating on is pretty thin.
The German ships aren't performing, they're out of service, their fuel consumption is equivalent to much bigger ships. They're causing problems due to the design.
That dog might be German but he still ain't gonna hunt.
jimmy_laroux
3 years ago
happy
And the length of the Victoria to Tsawwassen trip (Route 1) is not a "long"? Unless these two ferry terminals have recently moved closer together (perhaps due to shifting tectonic plates?), it still takes over 1.5 hours.
You agree that if "effciency" means fuel efficiency at a set speed, the "single-enders" are more effcient. So a fair comparison would be to consider the quantity of fuel burned to travel from point A to point B (for example Route 1) in a fixed time. It takes only a couple of minutes to turn. The "single-ender" can then travel at a slightly higher speed (much more efficiently) to its destination than the double-ended ferry. There are many issues to take into consideration when designing these boats, for example, trip frequency, cost of fuel and type of route. As fuel costs rise and trip distance increases, the single-ender becomes much more attracrtive. Obviously if the trip short enough the double-ender would have the advantage.
happy
3 years ago
jimmy
No, that's not long at all. 23 nautical miles, 90 mins.
An example of a long route would be the Queen Charlotte run. 94 miles, 8 hours.
Another example would be the ferry that runs from Dublin-Liverpool, also 8 hours, or the Nova Scotia-Newfoundland run.
These runs all use single enders, better suited to offshore conditions.
Frank - one thing I've learned is not to jump to knee jerk conclusions before the facts are in.
One small differerence between these boats and the fat underpowered aluminum mistakes. These come with warranty.
They HAVE to perform to contracted fuel consumption and speed gaurantees or the builder is liable. Not BC Ferries.
How many runs have been cancelled due to mechanical problems since they started operation Frank? Very few. Less than the Spirits - one of which had major propellor issues this summer, and way less than the "others" when they were introduced.
They haven't been "pulled from service" Frank. It's the slow season and their utilization is being curtailed while the builder works through these issues but they are still in operation and making runs.
My dogs a terrier, she hates German dogs. And all ferries :)
jimmy_laroux
3 years ago
happy
Now you're just being silly. "Long" is relative. Clearly it was long enough for BC Ferries to justify using "single-enders" for the trip.
Are you implying that seakeeping is the main reason for building a "single-ended" ferry? Because this is simply untrue.
Like about Spirit class ferries loading from one end only?
How about a source for that statement.
happy
3 years ago
Captain jimmy
"Clearly it was long enough for BC Ferries to justify using "single-enders" for the trip."
And clearly that was a mistake to build single enders in the first place jimmy. If not, then why are thew new ferries double enders? Think it through.
"Are you implying that seakeeping is the main reason for building a "single-ended" ferry? Because this is simply untrue."
Says who. You? On what grounds? Then why is the new Queen of the North replacement thats being built a single ender then? Like I said, think it through.
"Like about Spirit class ferries loading from one end only?"
A mistake I instantly realized, AND apologized for. Which is more than anyone on this site has ever done for me, with the exception of GWest who apologized to me once when he made a mistake.
"How about a source for that statement."
BCFMWU work for you?
"People with better memories will recall concerns the B.C. Ferry and Marine Workers Union raised over the first of two large Spirit Class ferries. Introduced in 1993, the Spirit of B.C. was removed from service after an initial six-month run. Rumours circulated that the B.C.-built ship was a flop. A lemon, if you will. The union even called for an independent investigation into the ship’s supposed failures.
Two months later, her issues resolved, the Spirit of B.C. was back plying her route. She was soon joined by her sister ship, the Spirit of Vancouver Island. They remain in service to this day."
As will the Coastal class. They, like the Spirits are having teething problems. The Cats were beyond help. Its well documented why. Check out the Auditor Generals report on the fiasco should you demand a "source" for that statement.
jimmy_laroux
3 years ago
happy
For reasons I've pointed out above, it was the correct decision, at that time, for a longer route, which is why BC Ferries made it.
As compared to the C-class ferries, built around three decades ago, the new ferries are much more efficient (at least for a given displacement, I'm not sure about a given vehicle/passenger capacity), so it's likely that their predicted performance made them competitive with "single-enders". Thus the decision to build double-enders.
Yes. Was that not obvious?
A ship in heavy seas feels the effect most when the waves come from the side, i.e. when the waves cause the ship to roll. This is as opposed to when the waves come from the front, causing the ship to pitch. Why is the motion of the ship greater (and thus passenger comfort/safety lower) when the wave come from the side? The moment of inertia of the ship in the longitudinal direction is far greater than in the transverse direction.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moment_of_inertia
Thus shape of the stern is not very important from the perspective of seakeeping. The cross-section of the hull is far, far more important. But by all means, ask a naval architect. Let me know what they say :)
Heavy seas or no she would have been a "single-ender".
I might give you the same advice :) Would you follow it?
Yes, I was pulling your leg, that's all.
Is this the link you could not seem to find?
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2008/11/20/209184.aspx
Grumpy
3 years ago
Research, research
It seems double ended ferry's are slightly more efficient on routes, with travel times less than an hour. On routes with greater travel times, being single ended is not an issue.
Washington state ferry's are all double ended, but except for the Annacortez to Sidney run, most routes have travel times less than a hour and in Seattle there is precious little room to maneuver, unlike BC Ferry's runs.
egmont rapids
3 years ago
Typical Happy
One foot out,one foot in,tasty stuff eh Happy? You must have the cleanest feet on the Sunshine coast!
Cheers
reallife
3 years ago
Where's the beef?
What's everyone so fussed about? As I understand it (please correct me if I am wrong), BC's ferry fleet was ancient and replacements were needed quickly. The corporation invited bids and the company submitting the best tender was awarded the contract. Is that not the way everyone would like to see a Crown corporation work?
Frank
3 years ago
reallife
Because money spent here helps our economy, money spent in Germany doesn't.
Its why when a government wants to provide fiscal stimulus they don't mail cheques to foreigners. Well, in this case, the BC Liberals did just that.
So $600 million spent in BC is in fact a far far better bid than $500 billion spent in Hamburg.