Avicenna, you might want to pay a little more attention to the article above. Notice the use of Arab and Muslim, not Arab = Muslim. Notice also that one of the writers included, Tariq Ali is of Pakistani origin.

Now while Rumi is indeed popular in "the western world" if you're going to assert that he has "outsold" Shakespeare, then you're going to have to do more than simply make that asserton, and back it up. The works of Shakespeare are probably the most studied works of literature in the English language, and probably the most widely translated into other languages. Books of his works and books about his works litter the shelves of bookstores and libraries in the "western world".

Instead of PC arrogance, a little more attention to detail might be in order. Maybe actually paying attention while reading the article above would be a good idea.

If you were interested in making some other book recommendations, then why not just mention them instead of all the other nonsense?

Great job by Demers, but my personal advice to anyone wanting to understand the muslim-arab-terrorist supposed link is to ignore all of these books and to employ instead, a bit of common sense.

In fact the suggstion that Muslim disenchantment with the West requires special study is more a part of the deception than a remedy for bewilderment.

Europeans, Americans, Russians and British have been interfering in Muslim nations trying to extract their own national interests (not to mention oil) for many years, and as long as a radical religiosity remains the only successful focus of protest, fundamentalist-inspired terrorism will remain the major weapon--because peaceful protest against foreign interests or indigeneous despotic regimes is met with police and secret police brutality and disappearances--not responsive political reform.

And so the Americans' claim to be attempting the democratization of Muslim nations remains the most cynical of jokes, as it has been the Americans, above all, who have bolstered the entrenchment of despotism, from CIA destroying the democratically-elected government of Mohammad Mossadegh, to encouraging the Iran-Iraq war, to insisting on an Israel-first policy in the middle east.

Instead of poring over all of this primary (or secondary) resource literature, go to the Mossedegh Project on the web, and get a primer in the destruction of democracy, the growth of insurgent Islam and subsequent coming of age of radicalism.

It's not all that mysterious!

You hit the nail on the head, Truman (as you always do, I might add) I would add though that the US has also helped create Islamism by systematically undermining and attacking secular Middle Eastern governments and movements, most especially Nassar in Egypt, Ghadaffi in Lybia and the PLO, and of course, Mossadegh, whom you mention. Had they truly been interested in modernization in these regions they would have supported an Attaturk-like solution and not gangsters and feudalists,

We're agreeing a lot more these days, Truman (though I suspect that that has something to do with your flattering my writer's ego with kind words about my pieces; but let's for the sake of things pretend it's not completely rooted in my writerly vanity...)

I share the feeling that there is generally nothing complicated about the overarching tensions in the Middle East -- it's always blown my mind that North Americans, who live on a continent where people shoot each other over stolen parking spaces, can't wrap their heads around the anger people feel at losing their country (maybe if 'Palestine' were expressed as a critical mass of stolen parking spaces, we'd all be a little more on side). And to add to what anarcho said, the U.S. and Israel have not only indirectly supported Islamist movements by eroding and attacking secular nationalists and Leftists -- but throughout the 1980s they provided the materlal (financial and military) basis of these movements. The outstanding examples are, of course, the proto-Qaeda mujaheddin in Afghanistan and Hamas, in the occupied territories (the only Palestinian educational institute not built with Palestinian money was the Islamic Institute, Hamas' school built with backing from Israel).

But aren't these points a little more germane to Deborah's (excellent) article than mine, which deals more with fiction and poetry? One of the reasons that I think this list of books is so important is that it offers readers in the West a more fully realized portrait of Arab and Muslim humanity; for those on the Right, Arabs and Muslims are no longer simply barbarous savages, and for those on the Left, they're no longer simply the victims of Western brutality and religiosity. Literary works allow for a more nuanced, more human understanding.

Oh, and Avicenna -- I made certain to be fairly clear in my demarcations between Arab and Muslim, though you'll agree that there is significant overlap (for instance, with the exception of the Ottoman Empire and its reach into the Balkans, all Muslim societies in Europe -- Spain, or Sicily -- were initially Arab settlements). But you're right; the distinction exists, but is commonly ignored. I still remember local radio host Hana Kawas being interviewed on September 11th during a segment called 'Canadian Muslims react to the attacks' or some other such nonsense; Kawas is a Palestinian Christian, of course, from that obscure outpost that was so late to adopt Christianity: Bethlehem.

"The" Muslim mind. Sure.

See:

http://www.muslimwakeup.com/main/archives/2006/06/hypocrisy_masqu.php#more

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master - that's all."

"Mahfouz was later blinded during an attempted assassination by an Islamist"Quite untrue!
Mahfouz was stabbed in the neck and now has partial use of his arm but his eyesight in unaffected.
He continues to write and is currently working on a series of short stories.

I am still old fashioned enough to know that we cannot be racist against anyone Muslim ( Islam )
And I know that this group does not cause us anymore risk than our other ethnic groups. Every society has their share of dissidents and naysayers.
Hopefully we can all relaxe for a while as the US and the UN try to destroy Hizbollah

WHo told you those home truths Ron? Ann Coulter. What would a sane person call her except racist?

Alc; I feel for your pain, but thank God I don't need to work tomorrow.
I, do however, need to go to Vancouver tomorrow. In order to move one of my daughters back home to Vancouver Island.
This means I will be in Vancouver , Saturday.
Oh God, what a day this will be.

Alcibiades, Ann Coulter is not a woman, hint, the adams apple.

Check your facts, Salmon -- he was indeed blinded.

Sorry, no -- he is blind now, but this does not appear to be related to the attempt on his life. My mistake; apologies,Salmon.

Apology accepted-I always check my facts.

" Hopefully we can all relaxe for a while as the US and the UN try to destroy Hizbollah..." another IAMC gem.

LOL. Yea, you watch for tha alrightt, IAMC. Stay tuned, eh.

I'll watch as the rising popular tide of pan-Arabism and its desire to progress and secure control of its own destiny against foreign intrusion and theff, on the other hand, gets better and better at defeating not only their own socially reactionary and collaborationist forces, but assists the world wide need to degrade and control Amerika and its merry band of fascist neoconazi lunatics, working mightily with the remnant rump of the old British Empire ambition and the Zionist occupiers of Palestine to bring us WWIII.

While I may not be pleased or agree with every and all aspects of this popular rising of the greater Arab nation, I do understand its fundamentally progressive and imperative impulse-, which is basically to move forward and break free of the shackles of the imperialist influences which hold it down and back. I also understand that it is "objectively", regardless of intentions here, a part of what is destined, in my view, to be the degrading and ultimate breaking of the controlling "Hand of God" , such as Neoconazi Amerika sees itself.

Which, again in my view, works to this country's long term best interest and need to free itself of Amerika's dominating control as well. And may yet help set the stage for our own profound social, democratic and economic revolution. (And I mean revolution in the "profounfly transformative" context of the word.)

So you continue to see this process as "the enemy", IAMC, for it helps make clear to the rest of us precisly out of which social class milieu and interest set that view arises, while I will look at it as part of a profoundly important, progressive and liberating impulse.

ahh yes Politically Correct stupidity on display...Perhaps reading the hateful (to non0believers) Koran or better yet simply get enlightened at:
http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/

Amerika, Nazis, fascists, the old British Empire, neo cons. Whats that old saying "your enemies enemies may not be your friend" Coyote, hard to believe you use the word progressive to describe the greater Arab nation. Anything but progressive. It makes me laugh when countries that have terrible human rights records are held up as superior to countries with the good things that are only possible with the rule of law and democracy. I think the world would have been better of, if after the end of WW2, the Allies would have kept and increased control of the middle east, imperilalistic yes, so what. It would have been better for us and better for them. It should be more than obviuos that most people in this region are not into democracy, rule of law, human rights or any of that. That makes them dangerous and in need of supervision. Perhaps years of humane rule would have made it possible for responsible government to arise there. Before you extoll thier virtues, ask yourself this, could I stand up publicly in every middle eastern country and lecture on the virtues of womans rights and homosexual rights?. You expect us to tolerate and suckhole to people who are not tolerant or humane, insanity.

The main enemy is US Imperialism (and its predecesor British imperialism) . There would be no "Ay-rab" problem, if imperialism did not exist. The Brits opened Palestine to the Zionists, the Yanqui undermined secular governments, backed Israel to the hilt, toppled a progressive like Mossedegh, supported backward regimes like the Saudis etc, ad nauseum. US imperialism set Latin America back 20 years with its death squad, terrorist regimes, Contras, War For Drugs etc, ad nauseum. As much as we may dislike the Islamic fundies - and I assure you no one here would want to live under them - they have tied down the Empire and are breaking its back. If it weren't for the Yanqui being bogged down in Afghanistan, Iraq and soon Lebanon, for sure they would be attacking the progressive countries of Latin America. The fact that one unpleasant group is defeating another but more powerful unpleasant group and that this defeat is a plus for humanity is not the same as identifying with them or "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" - it is just an objective fact. Russsia, after all did more than any other country to defeat Hitler. This was a good thing, even though I am the last person on Earth to say sanything positive about Stalinism.. So too with the "terrists" in Lebanon or the nationalist guerillas attacking the Americans in Iraq.

Anarcho highlights the total idiocy of the politically correct fools who have absolutely no idea of the totalitarian violence that exist in the mid-east - before during and after Imperial domination.

BTW, Canada, the us, and many other countrues started off as Imperial colonies.

Why pray tell (no I do not expect a sensible answer from you, you obvious retard) are we not as backward as these middle AGES countries?

As the poster before you said - do the logic tesat - can you say what you just said about us in the west about them in the middle east in their own countries?

The answer is as clear as day - no you cannot. There are no human rights in these DICTATORSHIPS.

Fools - there was a time when the NDP and the left were the choices for progressive minded people but not anymore.

All cultures are not equal nor are they all valid. Ours is clearly superiour. You don';t like the word or the idea of superiority it would appear - you do not want to acknowledge people want to better themselves, that some people are smarter and better than others.

What we did last century was strip away some of the inherited wealth/privilege of people and move to a merit system.

Regretfully the Politically Correct's attack on basic liberty has distractyed us from being progressive in a true sense and not the knee-jerk reactionary-ism of left.

And unfucking believable to me, I remember the seventies when the only reactionaries were on the right. How did a movement, the progressive movement get hijacked by the senseless droning of the politically correct?

Is non-thought really so attractive to so many?

I challenge all who disagree with me to live in one of these dictator states for a year to prove your point - but of course you will not - just as the right has armchair generals. so does the left.

Climber, I think that you and My Brain is On Fire have supplied a pretty accurate description of the progress of eqalitarianism or any kind of democracy is these middle east countries. Certainly, in many ways those societies seem like they're pretty well equivalent to medieval Europe.

But where I diverge with you, I think, is in the degree of culpability Western Nations have in preventing political evolution by supporting their disgusting emirs and self-proclaimed monarchies. I think the Mossedegh Project on the web tells a pretty good story about how the CIA ruined the government of Mossedegh, who was perhaps the best political reformer the Muslin World has ever had.

But yeah, I agree I'd much rather live in Canada. The world's a complicated place, though, and I think unless we're all in favour of perpetual war and terrorism we should perhaps consider how the West has contributed to intransigence of totalitarianism.

MyBrainisEmpty, The only fool is you pard. LIke a true sheeple you got sucked into neocon propaganda. All you can do is repeat cliches. I am anything but PC, having even written an atack on it 12 years ago. Furthermore PC has nothing to do with it -- my posting is just simply a factual account of the realities of what is called "Fourth Generation War." The Empire cannot win such a war - little suggestion - read up on it - and will eventually have to pull in its horns. This will be a victory for everyone - for as I have explained - and you if you knew a thing about history woulfd know this as well - the source of these conflicts lies in imperialism. You obviously cannot read as I compared this victory to that of Stalin over Hitler, we ceratinly didn't want to live under Stalin, but were sure glad Hitler got defeated. AM I MAKING MYSELF CLEAR? Learn something rather than spouting your drivel!

"The fact that one unpleasant group is defeating another but more powerful unpleasant group and that this defeat is a plus for humanity is not the same as identifying with them or "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" - it is just an objective fact. Russsia, after all did more than any other country to defeat Hitler. This was a good thing, even though I am the last person on Earth to say sanything positive about Stalinism.. So too with the "terrists" in Lebanon or the nationalist guerillas attacking the Americans in Iraq." wrote Anarcho.

Which puts it beyond the intellectual reach of this Brainless neconazi crew Anarcho, but incredibly accurately. It's simple enough. Just too complex for these mindless fuktards to unravel.

Politically correct?

Hell, if we were in fact "prolitically correct" in the context of this country and its Sugar Daddy in the US, in these neoconazi times, we'd be singing from the same faith based, ideological hymnal as these assholes. They're the ones who pass for "politically correct" in these times, in this colonial bootlick country.

It's that "political correctness" of the US Empire, which these arseholes sing the praises of here, which is destroying this country, egalitarian brick by egalitarian brick, and serving it up to their Capitalist Marketplace Master-, and which is long past the time it needs to be challenged.,

And which will be, as is already beginning to happen, ordinary folks behin to catch up with where they are attempting to lead us, with their neoconazi ring through our collective noses.

There's a process at work, centred right now in the Middle East, not always pretty from where we look at it in time and development, but it is destined to deal a huge defeat to the US Empire, desparate rump British Imperialism, and imperialism generally, and those "lackey states" in the Middle East, Arab and Zionist, which has the potential, as an unintended by-product, to radically change our world, including this country. And it's understanding that, its processes and complexities. which those of us who stand counterposed to the prevailing "politically correct" Neoconazi view of the capitalist world and its rampaging imperialims have to wrestle with and understand.

For it has the potential as it continues to roll out, and only a "potential", depending upon whether we can "get it" or not, to help change and move forward our own part of the world, from where it currently languishes itself, under the dominating influence of The Empire and the Neoconazi tide that is currently attempting to drown us and our interests in their heretofore ruling "capitalist marketplace" assumptions.

Good piece anarcho. They can attempt to hide within their own "politically correct" assumptions of course, but we just keep flushing them out into the light of day where they can be examined and exposed. Fortunately they are stupid enough. It's like shooting fish in a barrel.

Hey Coyote, why don't you take a trip to downtown Tehran or any other downtown in that fuked up region and star screaming for womens and homos rights? See how long it would be till they threw you in a dungeon and made plans to remove your fat head. Mindless fuktards, nice. Knob gobbling ditchpig, theres one for your insult file, try something new.

okay fuckbrains here's a very simple parsing that even you dim twits should be able to comprehend and not defend....

Listen the islamists/hesbollah types universally have an ideology (Islam) that is without question paralel to Nazi ideology.

How in the world can you defend these people who call for the extermination and subjugation of anyone not believing what they believe?

In the end your posturing actually supports a Nazi ideology.

Clearly you have lost all sense of proportion. Did Bush the fuckhead cause more trouble by attacking a Secular Arab - hell fucking yeah - but that doesn't mean we should support the sick and twisted regimes that still demonize the Jews as the worst filth on the Earth - these are from countries who have actively propagated the Jew/Israel as oppressor as a way to divert attention from there utter depravity.

I know your arguments saying they are oppressed, we are to blame blah blah white guilt, but though your theses may be okay in a coffee klatch or University faculty lounge, they are unworkable in reality.

Again avoid the real issue - GO LIVE THERE FOR A YEAR and then come back tell us all how horrible we are in comparison.

news.faithfreedom.org/

get a clue

"Hey Coyote, why don't you take a trip to downtown Tehran or any other downtown in that fuked up region and star screaming for womens and homos rights?"

Again, this is for these folks to deal with in their own good time, and according to the social development level of understanding, as it evolves.

One could has this very experience which you so jingoistically describe, right here in this country, in just about any fundamentalist evangelical Christian Church in the land, or about any woman's abortion clinin where one might encounter them harassing women struggling and under pressure to deal with a very complex problem.

Hell, religious Christian nutter overwhelmed USA , on this particular issue of the irrational influence of faith based religious ideology, has as much in common with the Khomeni school of Islamism as vice versa.

The Islamic World far from has a lock on religious nuttery. It's simply that we have, to here, been a little more successful at keeping them under control and in the looney bins, where many of them belong. Though Harper, Stockwell Day and Co. are working mightily to bring these Christian extremists into state power here as well.

This is a problem for us to deal with, and we will in good time. Likewise will they. They shouldn't interfere in our internal affairs in this regard, nor whould we in theirs.

As you suggest, "get a clue", wingnut fuktard.

Anarcho

The “Arabs” have been an issue for a very long time, just ask the Persians the border dispute between present day Iraq and Iran has been going since at least 1650. Also the present borders of Iraq was formed by the amalgamation of 3 Ottoman provinces, so you can actually lay most of the blame on the Turks. Mind you the Romans can share some of it to. Funny that most of the “hero’s” of the Arabian “Golden Age” were not really Arab, Saladin for example was Kurdish.

Present day Arabs seem to be a mixed-mash of historical people and are closely related to many of the Jews. Slightly over half of the present population of Palestinians appears to have immigrated to the British mandate of Palestine between 1922-1946, and going by census data, the British mandate had far better living standards than in the surrounding areas. Curious note, I read that at first the British ran Iraq out of the Indian Colonial Office and the Rupee was official currency there for some time, I am going to have to look into that story. Also the current port of Hafia was built by them.

However the “Arabization” of Islam is a major concern and is one of the chief causes of Arab radicalism. Just looking at photo’s of my wife’s family from the 50-60’s in Malaysia and almost no one was wearing a Hijab then, but know it is required and the change is stifling cultural identity in Muslim countries around the world and stifling free thought about Islam.

Colin, I repeat, where does this problem stem from? Is it some innate nastiness of the "Arabs" or has modernity been stifled by British and then US imperialism? Turkey had Attaturk who took the boots to the Medievalists in Turkey and created a secular state. Mossedegh, Nassar, Quadaffi and others tried the same. They were attacked, or overthrown by imperialism. This same force backed the religious reactionaries of Saudi arabia and bankrolled similat types in Afghaistan. Then there is the US uncritical support for Israel, vetoning scores of UN resolutions. These are the causes of this problem. Best thing to do is withdraw from the area and let the folks there deal with it themselves. More US involvement is just pouring gasoline on a fire.

Coyote, you are comparing here and there in regards to free speech and any talk about womans or homos rights? I have seen people demonstrating for and agianst abortion, no big deal. People can demonstrate about things here, not in these places where basically you say they may figure it out one day. When is the last time, here in BC, someone was shot demonstrating?, fuk me, remember the whining when Sgt.Pepper went beserk with the pepper spray at UBC? In the countries you so admire it would have been a machine gun show, and no one would talk about it, no newspapers, no tyee, no fukall. It is only because of the country you live in that you can beak off like you do, oh, and you could also do it in that "evil empire" to the south of us, more so even.

I'd suggest the big loser in this war is Israel. I think they lost another 19 soldiers today - probably the biggest daily loss since 1948. Israel may now begin to lose the unquestioning support it has had from the US as its proxy in the region. No longer the unquestioned military master of the Arabs (despite modern US weaponry, strategic and intelligence advantages); it has been fought to a virtual standstill by a force of some 5 - 6000 guerilla irregulars with small arms and some antique missiles not very different from the Stalin Organs of the Red Army's drive on Berlin.

For all the bravado Israel mustered 4 weeks ago when they decided to ‘teach’ Hizbollah a lesson, I think they’ll be ready to stand down on Monday and do so with a sigh of relief.

This certainly heralds a change in the dynamics of the region - perhaps well outside the Middle East as well.

We'll have to see how the upper class 'Western' mind reacts to the new reality.

The question now is, of course, will the leaders of the Arab world have the sense to take advantage of their newly won respect - or will they, like Arafat, squander the opportunity that Oslo presented a dozen years ago?

Surely now the Israelis will be more willing to enter meaningful negotiations for a real two-state solution in the area. It's quite clear that Olmert is finished as a leader and the prestige of the IDF is in tatters. If real negotiations with Hamas can begin (and there is a rumor that that possibility was behind the IDF over-reaction to a border incident that started this war) then there could be peace in the region - as long as the Americans are kept busy in Iraq for a few more months. Israel must now also realize that the US is a crippled entity too.

There will be no peace. Its just going to go on, untill the biblical prophesy in revelations happens, then the chosen shall inherit the earth and the evil ones (Coyote, you listening?) will be smote. Kind of scary who actually believes this, isn't it?

climber, you've got to be kidding!
Just because IAMC/Ron is away for the duration there's no need to take his place.
LOL

Yeah, I am, me and my GF watch this guy, Jack van Impe, check him out sometime, pretty funny stuff.

Charles --- I had to say I enjoyed your article (though the conversation has erupted forth from Ann Coulter, to “wingnut fuktards”, and god knows where else – am I off topic, then?). Either way, its refreshing to hear a voice (whether in the world of the Tyee or otherwise) that is just as willing to offer harsh critique, as it is to enlighten us with the book that made the Tyee contributor sob! But hey: whether or not we’re crying or critiquing, I think this issue of examining where Muslim or Arab (or Palestinian or Iranian) fiction is coming from --- eg, John Updike vs. Tariq Ali --- is more crucial than we’re recognizing. Now more than ever, we should be giving more weight to the literature actually coming out of the Middle East – and remembering that the literature of a culture can be as as political as a manifesto, as detailed and accurate as a master thesis, and can be all wrapped up in prose that is vivid enough to reflect a culture, a religion, and even a language -- despite the translation. I don’t think there is a shortage of opinions on the cause of the violence in the Middle East (though, a few comments have been made here that only the fool lacking any common sense will say it’s an extremely complicated matter – and in this I wholeheartedly agree). But, the real shortage can be found in the lack of spotlight being given to some of these authors (and their works) that mr. demers mentions – who, he aptly describes, take on the task of ‘humanizing’ the Middle East, one could even say ‘humanizing’ the violence that encircles the Middle East, too. And what could be more important, in my mind, today, tomorrow, ten years from now.

Saddam Hussein fancied himself a bit of a writer too - time was.
I think one of his romantic hero potboilers was called:
Zabiba And The King which has, I think, been published in English.

Daniel Pipes had a theory about Saddam (the author and world historical figure), which, ironically, could be applied almost verbatim to a couple of other leaders (not that I think Pipes intended anyone to bend his words to some other use) currently strutting the stage:

"This mistake can best be explained as the result of Saddam (substitute leader of your choice) inhabiting the uniquely self-indulgent circumstance of the totalitarian autocrat, with its two key qualities: Hubris: The absolute ruler can do anything he wants, so he thinks himself unbounded in his power. Ignorance: The all-wise ruler brooks no contradiction, so his aides, fearing for their lives, tell him only what he wants to hear. Both these incapacities worsen with time and the tyrant becomes increasingly removed from reality. His whims, eccentricities and fantasies dominate state policy. The result is a pattern of monumental mistakes."

Sounds familiar.
I don't think I've ever quoted Daniel Pipes approvingly before.

What a lively, well-informed thread.

"Anarcho's" views ring deep and true.

As for the Muslim = Arab discussion, here's a reminder:

"There once was a guy called Muhammed
- he had a lot of Arab cred
His words were spread out wide and far
- torn and twisted now they are"
- Yoda

Killing commies for Christ, killing arabs for jews, killing islamists for oil or killing poor people for profit - a lot of people end up dead. People killed is the problem, not their creed. Dead people is what makes the living vengeful. People are people, this is one world, one empire now. A global class-war is raging, so far denied naming in terms carrying easily recognizable connotations.

Arab literature & thinking is great.

The western world is a Johnny-come-lately, except for its fundament in Greek myth, poems and plays. The Bible is a great horror-story of a murderous master-god turning everyone schizophrenic in the end, called "The Apocalypse". The Quran at least tells people how to live practical daily lives, A thousand years outdated, may be, but at least an attempt, better than glib western "How-to"-books. Seek life, liberty and happiness the strongest thought-out declaration says, but without "happiness" being defined in how it feels and thereby knowable as when right is right. Happiness thus becomes hit & miss, mostly miss. But good luck.

I've travelled in Muslim countries, made many friends, even consiered becoming one. But have to say that generalizations and stereotypes about Muslims here are as bad as some of those which are expressed by Muslims about westerners. "Get inside the Muslim mind"? There are many more than one mind.

I came across this most clear, concise and cautionary depiction of the "Arab mind" on the topic of the Jewish claim to Israel - written by a fairly frank and insightful fellow in 1947 - and he was bang on on his assessment. It is a sobering retrospect at the blatantly disregarded advice. The writer of the piece is the former monarch of Jordan - King Abdullah - and his insightful piece resonates with Demers's desire to get it straight from the Arab's mouth - so to speak. Some of the above posters are courageously ignorant (or perhaps just resistant to information) - and they may glean something from: http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/kabd_eng.html.
Others - such as Coyote, Alcibiades, anarcho, kurt, Ullern - etc will likely find it an affirmative read - as they appear to have not only an open mind - but one receptive to useful information. However, there are obviously those that need to recuperate from third-degree mental charrings - as is evident by their handle.

"There will be no peace. Its just going to go on, untill the biblical prophesy in revelations happens, then the chosen shall inherit the earth and the evil ones (Coyote, you listening?) will be smote. Kind of scary who actually believes this, isn't it?"

Well, I will indeed acknowledge that the folks who believe such crap are scary, no doubt.

It has all the echoes of the vengeful God of the Old Testament and Revelations from the New Testament, from the memory of my early days with my evangelically dysfunctional family, and later time in the Catholic Church. Where likewise all, by the by, many of the same attitudes and behaviours towards women and homosexuals you describe can likewise be found. And contrary to all your "normal democracy" claims, they shoot doctors at those abortion clinics, don't thny? Even in the privacy of their own homes.

So, c'mon, you can attempt to slide by the many similarities between some elements of the Christian West and the Islamic Middle East, and rationalizae them away, but they remain and are stark. And, as I have pointed out, it is not only in the Middle East that religious nutters are a rising political force, as a unifying ideology against Western imperialism, but here in the West, the political power of Christian extremism is similarly growing with all its fascist overtones. (Which you and the brainless one manifest quite well, and don't try to hide behind your "Devil's Advocate" pretensions.)

There is a world changing dynamic loose in the world again, in the Middle East, through whatever its religious form, what is really an anti-imperialist dynamic and a broadly held and felt desire to modernize.and be in control of their own destiny. The details of that, and I suggest, for example, a lot of the religious nuttery and serious issues involving women etc, are most likely to work themselves out over time in the aftermath. For indeed, as there was in Iraq before the US Empire invasion, and currently even in Iran, there was and is a significant and growing secular population segment and interest as well. But right now, Islam is acting as a unifying ideology in the primary war against imperialism.

And though Alcibiades and I might see a slightly different dynamic at work in the Middle East, with some different nuances, even in this current settlement of the war in Lebabon, across the Middle East the war/revolution is destined to rage for some time yet-, at least until the US Empire is driven out, and perhaps even much of Zionist Jewrry-, depending much upon how quickly the latter comes to its senses and makes an honourable peace with the Palestinians and its other Arab neighbours..

But in any case, in my view, we have ourselves an extremely reactionary and backward looking dynamic at work, here in the West, around a significant and powerful Neoconservative force arising out of the Western ruling class, with a significant fascistic tendency of its own, in alliance with an extreme Christian right. And this force within our own society is attempting itself to roll back the social and economic historical clock, and with no small measures of success to here, And it is this dynamic which is, in fact, really back of the new US Empire led Western Imperialism (the PNAC or Project for A New Amerikan Century) that has thrust itself into the Middle East, and brought this War On Terror down upon not only them, but ourselves.

Continued next post...

From previous post...

Clearly in Iraq and Afghanistan, like the Zionist move into Lebanon, however, in my view of it, it is destined in the end to be defeated-, likely with disasterous implications and consequences for ourselves, by degrading the US, its military and economic system. Which in the often convoluted way these things work will probably, in my view of the final analysis, be a positive for our own independant and self-reliant socio-economic devekionebt. It will as it is,for sure, expose the shallow inadequacies of this Neoconservative view of the world and manifestation, at the least.

It is why I say, this, frequently violent, dynamic for change currently at work in the Middle East is likely in the end to roll right over us as well, and further set in motion again our own forces for significant social change/transformation. Which has the potentiual to be a positive, in my view.

"devekionebt"

Wow! Which should read "development".

I mean, what do you expect of old eyes and this teeny tiny type.

Alcibiades–Coyote why don’t the two of you gather up your air mile points and do as Climber suggest,
( take a trip to downtown Tehran or any other downtown in that fuked up region and start screaming for women and homos rights? See how long it would be till they threw you in a dungeon and made plans to remove your fat head).

To which neither of you , Alcibiades or Coyote have a credible answer to , nor the balls to carry out.

Are you the woody of that doo-wop group that was big in the 50`s?

woody and the peckerheads?

Been to Iran peckerhead?

I have. So what do you know of Iran peckerhead?

Avicenna,

Thanks for the link. I most certainly will check it out.

A good day to you. :-)

And you have a credible answer, woody?

Remember what the law society did to Jack Cram? Yelling and screaming doesn't get anyone much respect and fewer results in Canada or Iran. People just think you’re insane.

It's a lesson you should take to heart. It helps to do some research and actually have some knowledge.

Then it’s necessary to express the ideas in a way that indicates the intelligence involved is actually engaged and not just spinning tires and generating clouds of acrid smoke. Another common pastime in the Fifties I’m told.

Enjoyed the Hashemite link, Avicenna.

Tip of the hat to you Coyote and bob the cat too.

‘Woody and the Peckerheads’…Hmm!

Can't remember a lot of big hits from that group's repertoire – I’ll check out the remainder bin they keep under the counter at my local vinyl emporium.

The Peckerwood totally ignores what we are saying. One of the oldest underhanded tactics in the book. When we criticizrd US fgoreign policy back in the 50's the same sort of clown sreamed "Go back to Russia" Is it stupidity? Or is it a fear of confronting the truth about the Empire? By the way this frigging bloody tiny type is a pain in the ass for sure - usually I don't make a lot of typing errors but with this (and clike Coyote sez those old eyes) cain't be helped...

From today's Times. Just a small indication that these cultural divides don't have to dividy people of good will.

This Is London
By MICHAEL GOLDFARB

London

ANOTHER week, another flash of terrorism in my city, this one, thankfully, thwarted by the British security services. As usual, the headlines hit me on my doorstep. Islamic terrorists have worshiped at the Finsbury Park mosque, a 10-minute walk from my home. Two of those arrested last week live in my neighborhood, Stoke Newington.

On Friday, to escape my unquiet thoughts, I put my 1-year-old daughter in her stroller and walked into the park that is literally outside my door. In a world slowly splitting at the seams, Clissold Park is like a dream.

Huge families of Hasidic Jews, in their unseasonably hot, traditional dress, stand along the railings feeding the ducks, geese and squawking moorhens who nest on the willow-draped island in the middle of the pond. Next to them, equally vast families of South Asian Muslims, the women in unseasonably hot hijab and long skirts and occasionally full burkas, are doing the same. The kids run along the railings, intermingling if not actually engaging with one another.

I push my baby toward the park’s playground and close my eyes for a moment. These are the languages I hear: Turkish, Urdu, Arabic, Yiddish, Polish, Russian, Greek, Somali, Amharic and other African languages I cannot name. On Sundays, Spanish and Portuguese are added to the mix as groups from other parts of town turn up to play soccer.

There are all varieties of English, too. Stoke Newington has been thoroughly gentrified in the last decade, and now you hear cut-glass accents that used to exist only in Kensington and Chelsea along with working-class diphthongs and glottal stops from the local housing projects.

What makes this worth commenting on is that within Clissold Park, some of the most intractable conflicts in the world seem to have been resolved — or at least temporarily ignored. Kurds and Turks, Jews and Muslims, working-class and middle-class people (this is Britain) all coexist, enjoying the lawns, the deer park, the ponds, the rose garden and the wading pool.

Some of this is possible because of bedrock British custom. For example, queuing. There are only four swings, far too few for the number of kids who use them (another British tradition, not providing adequate public facilities). But parents take care to wait their turn. The Hasidic Jew nods to the woman in hijab, and the exchange of swings takes place, with none of the coiled resentment I have seen in American playgrounds.

When I first moved to the area in 1989, the park did not have anything like the variety of ethnicities and nationalities using it. What has happened in London since then is possibly the most remarkable peacetime change in the ethnic composition of a European city. Without warning and by increment, a vast influx of people from around the world has changed the city into something like the idealized, happily multiethnic, liberal New York of my childhood.

That’s not to say it’s all Elysium around here. There have been hate crimes; the local mosque was attended by Richard Reid, the so-called shoe-bomber, and Zacarias Moussaoui. But whenever the hate and violence threatened to boil over, leaders from all faiths spoke out, calling for peace, and the tensions cooled.

Still, as I watch my daughter and listen to the din of a dozen languages, I feel an end-of-summer sadness. Someday soon, someone with an inability to value what is precious about Clissold Park will commit the act that shatters this small world and drives all of us into our corners. Before that happens, I want my daughter to know that there was an alternative.

Michael Goldfarb is the author of “Ahmad’s War, Ahmad’s Peace: Surviving Under Saddam, Dying in the New Iraq.”

Just as I anticipated your unable to provide a credible answer, so lets attack the messenger. Its quite evidently you morons don’t stay abreast of current affairs, a documentary on CBC a few days back discussed and showed the down word spiral of the ecomony, women rights, gay rights( none),and Islamic law as being enforced in Iran ,as you morons advocate that system, go there, we can get along quite well here with out you bunch of dolts.

If you can't read Woody, it is hardly my fault. As to getting along, that was the point of the piece I posted from the Times.

The problems of some religious fundamentalists in their societies are problems they will have to live with and solve. Just as the idiots in our society – religious, non-religious and from both left and right wing - are our problem to deal with.

No one here is advocating 'that' system and the only one making himself look like an idiot is you.

As to keeping abreast of current affairs, I wouldn't start if I were you - it's a battle you are ill-prepared for.

"The Peckerwood totally ignores what we are saying. One of the oldest underhanded tactics in the book."

It's their way,these Neocons, the entire time I have been writing on thise site.

And they seem to think that no one notices their failure to engage with counterposing attempts, at lerast, at rational arguments, even hypothese. That if they ignore us and merely insistantly make their wingnut statements and diatribes, we may simply disappear, and no one else will notice the contradiction.

Sorry, but that's the definition of a fuktard. Their logic is fuked, and they are intellectually challenged, as in retarded: a fuktard. :-)

If it isn't an official dictionary definition, it should be, even as a subheading under Neocon, or Neoconservative.

Then they wonder why we don't treat them with respect. .

"I don't make a lot of typing errors but with this (and clike Coyote sez those old eyes) cain't be helped..." wrote anarcho.

I think that bloody Beers and his Language Police is doing it deliberately, to embarass and drive out us old men radicals. 8-D LOL.

Time you went to work on these Neoconazis instead, Beers. Your Yankee background is showing. :-)

On the other hand, there are some crazy things coming out of Iraq, apparently a consequence of militant Islamic 'principles'...but of course intimately related to the American invasion and the subsequent meltdown of culture.

Here's a link to a RealAudio broadcast from NPR. I think it's also available for Windows Media player. Very short clip.

For what it's worth - not much likely.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5622900

What you should have said Coyote is, How dare you little people, you peons, you nincompoops, who do you think you are to contradict us , ridicule us, question us, us, the lordly Tyee scholars, the very nerve, We the high lordly scholars of this site will have you all smitten and cast from this site, then persons as I with drug and sodden brains will reign supreme on this site.

I don't think you have so much a drugged or sodden brain Woody, though you may indeed, as that you simply do not seem to measure up to the task of countering our positions here, with superior ones of your own. :-) As a consequence, you seem to have no other alternative but to fall back on the classic neoconazi reliance upon exactly what you do here, merely attempt to disparage and put words in our mouths, which are yours, not ours.

I take the odd drink, even do the odd toke myself Woody. So your own habits in such regards are of no concern to me. 8-D LOL (Living in the glass house that I do, it would not be wise for me to start hucking stones in such regards.)

Though you are very unlikely to ever, "...reign supreme on this site." From the evidence thus far.

You are simply, as Alcibiades indicated, too much out of your depth. Though I certainly do invite you to try. It would be a pleasant change from your typical fare.

And if at first you don't succeecd, of course, try, try again. :-) For no one here, certainly not I, is even thinking of having you "...cast from this site" , that I am aware of. Indeed, we have tolerated your presence for a very long time, and IAMC for example. You help make us look good. 8-D LOL

A little insecure are we, woody?

One paragraph like yours a few steps back up the line that refers to your interlocutors as morons twice and dolts once - in the space of some 80 or so words - isn't likely to be taken too seriously. Try reading the material, understanding and assimilating a little of it into your critique - you'll find it works wonders.

Moreover, you won't end up with such a low opinion of yourself into the bargain.

Sorry folks, I posted this URL once before but, you can blame Peckerwood. These are the Iranians I support – they are secular, hate the fundies, are feminists and concerned about child abuse and minority rights. They are also opposed to US imperialism and are one of the most important groups of the opposition. Open your eyes Peckerwood and look at http://www.wpiran.org/English/english.htm

Alcibiades you remind me of a yappy little dog who stands on the fringes of a dog fight while all the braver dogs are snarling and snapping at each other, the little prick instigator mutt(you) runs around the out side of the group yapping, bitting at their heels, encouraging them to duke it out, then stands back with puffed out chest, then declares himself the victor.
Mean while the mangy coyote is laying far remove from the scene waiting for the little yappy mutt to come and enlighten him of the outcome of the scrap. Then dispatch him to the next scrap

Hey Peckerwood here is some more Iranians http://nefac.net/node/1731 Anyone read Farsi?
http://abgoon.persianblog.com/

Good point anarcho, I did look at the site the other day when you posted it - but not very carefully since I was busy with other things. Of course, using the work 'communist' is anathema for some. I'm sure we could both draft woody's most likely response without breaking a sweat.

I noticed an Agence France Presse snippet a couple of days ago that claimed Bush was reading Camus’ - L'Etranger on his vacation. Apparently someone slipped a Camus quote about freedom into one of his speeches more than a year ago. I guess he decided he ought to read up on something else the Algerian author had written.

Knowing Camus, I can’t decide if this is good or bad! Suffice it to say that Bush is capable of ripping the most profound thoughts from their context and bending them to his service.

Here’s a link to the story: http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/08/11/060811231406.rsxjfr54.html

Interesting characterization woody, and what role do you see yourself playing in this little drama?

If you’re going to approach analysis on a metaphorical level I think you need to elaborate the drama more fully. Since you’ve adopted a canine allegory, could I suggest a literary precedent: Jack London’s White Fang.

You can access the text online for free at Project Gutenberg – skim through till you find the description of the dog fights.

http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/results

And when you're done that one, woody, you can start on another Jack London book, also available at Project Gutenberg, called The Iron Heel.

It will provide you with a whole new range of literary allusions to intermingle with your hate.
.

I should have added that the gutenberg link only gets you to their catalogue. You have to type London and White Fang into the search protocol to actually get to the text. Sorry.

I forgot to mention Peckerwood, the last book I read was Persepolis,the story of an Iranian childhood under the mullahfuckers, See http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0375422307/103-6596775-2246209?v=glance&n=283155

Camus must be spinning in his grave, Alicibades.

Satrapi lives in France now doesn't she Anarcho?

She was doing illustrations and stories for the New York Times earlier this year if I'm not mistaken.

Here's a link - I think you have to subscribe to Times Select to get to it, but it's worth a try.

http://satrapi.page.nytimes.com/

Yeh, won't work without the sign-in protocol - you could sign up for a two-week free trial if you want I guess. Sorry. It there weren't so many illustrations I'd post the text. I find these subscriptions are fascist in the extreme.

Woody, Woody.... Sometimes I despair for you.

And I really do want to like you. We share a similar view of religion, if I recall correctly, and sometimes you can... You can really be quite funny.

And you have me wrong. It's unlikely I have any higher a formal education level than yourself. I only had a grade 8 until I was well in my thirties. After which I did manage to take two years off work and get my "academic entrance" level high school. Even managed as part of a particular movement that was then going on in the unviversities, to sit in on some polital science and economics course. Which produced no degree of course.

I'm was always just a manual, working with my hands and backl working stiff Woody. Have been all my life. Farming, ranching, truck driving, a stint as a hospital orderly, heavy equipment operator and bus driver. That's it. Nothing fancy or high falutin' at all.

I did always have an interest in politics and the related arts though. And though I split with it eventually over some rather serious issues, I got a really good political education grounding in the old Communist Party of Canada, over a fairly long time.

Nothing really scholarly or earth shaking at all. Just a thinking working class person. Which ain't nothing to be ashamed of at all. Indeed, I've always been proud of it.

Just so you know-, up front.

(Coyote, re your quoted spelling-mistake ""devekionebt". That made me laugh, with understanding your predicament. Clever mistake, as it shows you're good at writing touch. Your right hand was misplaced one key-row to the left, apparently?
Solution to the small font problem: write in Word, as big font as you like, then copy to comment-box. Easy.)

Can I give you guys today's Doon(esbury), pls?

http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/dailydose/index.html

It's a hopeless entry, but it's funny, and revealing: "You gotta stop reading the paper, sarge." - The solution for ever more people: pretend the consequences of our unsustainable lifestyles simply aren't happening.

The way I see it, it's still the same fight going on in the world as 30 years ago: "Exploiters" vs. "fair-sharers". There was a lull, a hiatus of a few self-deceived and well-deceived decades. Then the insights into the "inconvenient truth" about humanity & culture in ever more areas having reached the limits of our impact on surrounding Nature echoed back, with a vengeance. Now the climate is boiling - us.

Any distraction from that realization is a good one, it seems.

No self-pity is too small, nor any war too threatening, to be useful for that distracting - away from the realization that we’re all doing our own living, and with responsibilities to go. But the survivors will be left to pick up the pieces anyway. And the nivellation of privilege will then happen anyway. By pressing necessity, in the place of benevolent choice.

The question is only how much death & damage we collectively will cause on the way to wising up - collectively & individually. As it is, our behaviour amounts to rebelling against laws of nature. Like the Law of Reciprocity - "Do to the surroundings as you'll prefer your surroundings to be towards your self". That's much more than an ethical idea. It's a description of how the world works, i.e. a Natural Law. Same as what’s called the law of Karma, I presume.

To do that balancing of our external acts all the way down to the funda-mental platform of shared Reality, is a working out of a big and very personal equation. Regular personal meditations are called for. But not only can it be done - it happens to be very rewarding. That’s how lucky we are. Makes life real & meaningful.

Plus the balancing reveals how much remains to be done, before reasonable harmony is attained. – Harmony between our selves as people, that is, and between us and nature. (“Harmony” in the sense of sustainable proportions, mathematically speaking, in parallel to the proportions of the physical vibrations and their interferences, making up the sound-frequencies of individual notes in musical harmonies.)

That’s valid wherever on the planet we’ve landed in our lives.

“Clash of civilizations” with “Islamic fascists”? – That’s an oxymoron, a contradiction in terms, if ever there was one: “fascists” (the ones in Italy, Mussolini’s rabble) were explicitly Christian or close to Christians. Still are, it seems.

Bush speaking of “Islamic fascists” makes him an instant instance of his own complaint, as vilification of a designated – real or not – enemy is a core fascist strategy.

The Earth’s ruling empire – and thereby all of our collective reality with it – is growing more neurotic, looking in the mirror and seeing signs of the enemy. Only each of us rooting our selves individually in our reciprocal connection to our source in nature, can counter that cultural neurosis.

I’m reminded of Gandhi’s reply to the question: “What do you think of Western civilization?” – “I think that’s a good idea.”

Good books help.

3rd time im posting this gem on th tyee:

Has anyone seen British MP George Galloway rip Rupert Murder..er Murdoch's SKY NEWS a new one while appearing to talk about the invasion of Lebanon? Here is the LINK: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=249JaIaubVw

I Wish we had a politician with Cojones like this guy!!!!

Now that's one tough, spot on dude in that interview, eh Tom Joad. Wow! Indeed, it is only regrettable that we don't have politicians with half the cojones in this country, as this old guy.

He makes you realize what pathetic candy-asses we have as sorry excuses in this country, across the spectrum from right to so-called left.

And thank you Ullern, I appreciate your comments, and will hereafter take up your suggestion re writing in these particular small font threads.

Just because I point out the fuked up state of human rights in the middle east in general, it does not mean I think the sun shines out of Israels ass. Thats is a geat link Avicenna, foretelling what would happen, the terrorism against the double dealing British, the massacres of Palestinians, I know about it. To equate abortion service doctors being shot here with the state sanctioned horrific, daily abuse of people in middle eastern countries is beyond reason, Coyote. I was climbing trees today, thinking a good insult up for you, as you have insulted me, but why, been called worse by better people. Coyote, answer me this, do you attend remembrance day ceremonies?

The neoconazis must have pooped a five-sided brick after Galoway tore into them. Terrible when somebody tells the truth. Gosh, someone might pick up on it and the sheeple might stop seig heiling.

http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/index.htm This is a good, factual link, really educated me.

Good link, Climber. I find it ironic though that the terrorist methods that the Israelis condemn the Arabs for were perfected by them in fighting the Brits.

Tom;
I watched the interview between Galloway and the SKY news reporter. What part of his argument made any sense? , when you look at the source as a total idiot, unable to sustain any argument what so ever.
I don't know, but it seems to me that George G. and friends are shock jocks, reminiscent of John and Yoko.
I watched a debate between Galloway and Hitchens.
I saw the personal attacks by Galloway. I saw the general argument.
( We don't want to be invaded and have all of our personal property taken away from us )
Which I feel to be a fundamental truth.
There are more than Arabs involved in this scheme to rob the US.
Arabs are only a part of the Muslim population.
Persians, Asians, Africans, Americans, Brit's!
I am resisting being a moderate like some of my detractors.

Is it a struggle Ron?

The temptation to be a moderate I mean.

How do you manage to resist the temptation?

So Ron hates John and Yoko too and prefers a degenerate like Hitchens to Galloway. Figures. He seems to think the Ay-rabs ,or rather Muslims, are going to invade and take all personal property. Classic case of paranoia. Maybe you should consider professional help.

John and Yoko Lennon were 'shock jocks'!

What are you talking about? The person who should be embarrassed is the Sky News reporter - why do you think Youtube picked up the video? Which Avicenna actually posted on the Who's for the War in Lebanon at Tyee 4 days ago - remember.

Here's the original link from Skynews
http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,31200-galloway_060806,00.html

And here's what you said about it then:
"George Galloway? Need I say more about the stupid poster boy for the leftist European view of the world. He could be called a Nazi Alvi. Oops sorry that I didn't separate those names."

Have you been thinking of the John and Yoko parallel for quite a while?

Could you actually summarize Galloway's argument?

Gotta hand it to you guys, those are excellent links you're providing -

Avicenna - http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/kabd_eng.html
Tom Joad - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=249JaIaubVw and
Climber - http://www.britains-smallwars.com

Thanks! (Yes, I think they bear repeating)

Excellent discussion and input here, people. Very enjoyable.

That calm, well-reflected, articulate and highly relevant 1947-article by the then king of Jordan delivered as a lecture while visiting USA, was a joy to read. As so much written material from that by-gone era is, before our public sphere was - and increasingly is - ravaged by moving pictoral story-telling in movies, TV-news, and net.

Just like the George Galloway-interview on SKY so abundantly demonstrated, the framing of stories told in fleeting pictures rather than in physically captured words on paper, limits the receivers’ opportunities to check on the presentation and story-telling. Linearity of thought suffers greatly. Logic loses out.

We, the subjects of the news-stories in the moving pictures telling us about our selves and our world, are by the movement from fixed print to fleeting pictures deprived of much of the ability to stop, and think: "Hey, wait a minute - just what WAS that being said there?". We are both participants in and recipients of the stories, in a strangely circular functioning, sucking us into and spitting us out of the public sphere, only to suck us in again to new rounds. We live in a world where the public sphere increasingly consists of bubbles of hearsay mashed together like clusters of soap-bubbles. Of course, streaming video improves on the chance of checking the claims. But by the time fallacies are caught and uneven bubbles are busted, new bubbles are blown.

And how many have or take the attention – that personal resource par excellence - to take the time to fact-check the dominant claims floating in the public sphere? Answer: far to few. But that the possibility is there at all, increases our cultural opportunity to comprehend how the stories we're telling our selves about our selves are shaping our conduct.

With a greater understanding of how our common stories are biased and unrepresentative, the whole western culture will have to look for deeper common denominators as sources to trust, relating us to deeper variables in our selves, and forcing us all to become some kind of psychic, in sensing what is true and what is less than true. The rest, those unwilling to develop that sensibility, become happily manipulated and less flexible in their range of choices, and suffer more from the changes happening, like adjustments to climate-boiling.

The ones looking for factual story-telling will find the facts. Like that excellent link of Britain’s “small wars” since 1945. The notion that the state of the world “just happened” to be highly skewed towards us among “the lucky billion” with internet-access, with little or no deliberation behind it, is seriously undermined when the pattern of military interference is presented that clearly.

The time has come for a planned decommissioning of Western empire. Time to recognize that Reciprocity rules us all. Whether we like it or not. So we better start liking it, right?

(Now my high horse is tired – gotta give it a rest. Tnx for reading this posting.)

Alcibiades, mayhap you should reconsider your above post to IamClueless

- you're stretching the bounds of imagination to suggest he has been thinking at all. I do believe he is still innocent in all things cerebral.

- Ullern
Aye, though I don't think it will be a matter of choice. This so-called empire was built on both imported genius and the exploitation of the have-nots of the world. America was the expected inheritor of British imperialism - but they lack the finesse of their predecessor. Britain obviously was in decline when she pathetically pointed at Palestine as compensation to the homeless and abused Jews of Europe. However, she underestimated the resistance of the Palestinians in taking this atrocity lying down - as they are unlike previously oppressed people that had fallen under the shadow of the imperialist's knife.

I hate to say it - but after watching Mike Wallace's interview with Mahmoud Ahmadinejad - Ahmadinejad made more sense than anyone in the Bush administration to date. Imagine how the other side sees the nonsense coming out from this side of the mad world....

You, like IAMC, are very often just too tiresome and empty headed to engage with, Climber. Irt's that depth of a saucer of water thing again, which so afflicts the Neoconazi mindset.

Maybe another time, when I am more of a mind to toy with you, and be amused by your shallow empty headedness.

Avicenna,

The piece by former King Abdullah was excellent. Thank you for posting it here.

Now, I have a busy day today. I shall, however, return of course. Always enjoy these threads with most of you folks. (The dingbat wingbats excluded, understandably. :-)

Alcibiades

While the Hezbollah have given a very good account for themselves, they have not fought the IDF to a standstill, in fact the ceasefire is the only thing preventing them from being destroyed as a conventional force. Hezbollah has likely used up most of it’s modern weapons and has lost at least ¼ of it best fighting force, if the offensive continues they will not be able to maintain the ability they have so far shown.
The IDF can destroy a large portion of the Hezbollah forces, but not all of them, victory for Hezbollah is merely surviving, where for Israel it is far more complex. Either way Israel loses, no constrained offensive will effectively reduce Hezbollah and no action would have only postponed this war by a short period.
This ceasefire sets the stage for a far more brutal war within 10 years, the UN has effectively come to the rescue of Hezbollah and does not have the guts to force them to disarm, Iran will help rebuild them. The UNFIL will be intimidated into silence again and the Lebanese army will stay in it’s barracks to avoid confronting Hezbollah. Both Israel and Hezbollah will learn from this war and use those lessons in the next very bloody war.
Who do you suggest they negotiate with? Hezbollah has no intention of honouring a long term truce, merely a ceasefire in order to rebuild. The Lebanese government can not control Hezbollah and fear that trying to do so will plunge them into civil war again. If Syria was trying to be sane and intelligent, then they could have significant impact on the stability of the region, but their recent pact with Iran and funneling support to Hezbollah appears to show a lack of interest in a peaceful solution.

You can be sure that heads will roll in the IDF after they review what went wrong, they will refocus on combined arms training and stop carrying out unsupported armour attacks

Anarcho

So your suggestion is that the US abandons its ally and allows the Israelis to be slowly destroyed? I have no doubt the world would happily sit by while radical Islamist sack Jerusalem and murder the last Jew, they sat by and did nothing for Rwanda either. No doubt the UN would issue a strongly worded letter condemning the violence (of course they wouldn’t use the term “genocide” as the debate would prevent them from issuing any statement at all).

The US can’t pull out of the world affairs as it needs to interact with the world on a daily basis and even trying to do so will certainly encourage people to attack them, as attacking the US is a quick way to bolster credibility.

Galoway, credible? Oh god that was good for a laugh,

"The US can’t pull out of the world affairs as it needs to interact with the world on a daily basis"

And Colin whaere does this "interaction" stem from? The thirst for oil and the thirst for blood. your entire post is contradictory. You criticize Iran for supporting its ally in the fight against the racism that is Zionism, yet state that it is ok for the US to supply arms to Israel to kill civilians.

And speaking of killing civilians and "murdering," I guess the 1000 plus Lebanese civilians, and the 4 million civilians killed in the vietnam war, the over 40 thousand civilians killed in Iraq in the search for those elusive weapons of mass destruction (where are they by the way?), the 4000 Afghan civilians dead from US airstrikes, the 3500 Iraqi civilians in the gulf war who were murdered, along with the mass graves found in Panama after the US left don't mean anything. Oh yeah, and Israeli occupation forces have killed over 3,000 Palestinian civilians since the last Intifada began.

“We don’t do body counts”
General Tommy Franks, US Central Command

Browsing through Neale News today and I noticed the release of a COMPAS poll, that indicates Canadians are unlike most of the posters on this site.
A vast majority of Canadians support Israel, Harper and all the actions taken so far.

IAMC, the Compas poll shows that 80% of Canadians approve of Israel's right to defend itself, a motherhood issue. All countries have a right to defend themselves. But only 38% think that Hezbolah started the war. You and the Harpocrit in reality are only supported by 38% of the population.

Climber, iwhat I want the US to do is tell Israel, pull back to the 1967 borders and allow the formation of a viable Palestinian state or no more welfare payments. The UN could then guarantee the borders of both Israel and Palestine and reparations payments could be made to the families of displaced Palestinians. Even if we had to place peacekeepers every yard of the way it would be better than the present situation. As for the rest of your contention, people will trade with the US anyway, a market is a market. They don't need to bully and terrorize the rest of the world. They can settle down and become a country like any other and forget about the glories of Empire. As for Galloway, I find little wrong with his position. He seems to understand Fourth Generation warfare better than that toady of a PM he has

Truth about Compas

Anyone who believes the Compas poll (shown in the Asper Zionist press) is a moron. They only surveryed 500 people. For a National poll, the number should exced 1000.

Compas arrived at its conclusion that Canadians supported Harper after asking the following four questions:

— Does Israel have a right to defend itself? (82 per cent responded in the affirmative)

— Was Iran wrong to arm Hezbollah and call for the destruction of Israel? (69 per cent agreed)

— Was Syria wrong to arm Hezbollah and disobey the United Nations resolution requiring Syria to keep guns out of Lebanon? (68 per cent agreed)

— Did Hezbollah in Lebanon start the war? (Just 38 per cent agreed)

Compas then took those four responses, AVERAGED THEM OUT, and concluded that 64 per cent of Canadians supported Harper's policy.

That's like saying the average Canadian has one testicle (if you average amount the number of testicles in canada).

Contrastingly, the Strategic Counsel polled 1,000 Canadians. In the survey conducted by The Strategic Counsel for CTV and The Globe and Mail, 45 per cent said they disagreed with Harper's open support for Israel. Thirty-two per cent agreed with the prime minister.

When asked who Canada should support, a majority, 77 per cent, said Canada should be neutral. Sixteen per cent said Canada should support Israel, while only one per cent said Hezbollah.

When asked why they thought Harper had taken this stance, a majority, 51 per cent, said because it is in line with the position of U.S. President George Bush and his administration. Nineteen per cent thought the prime minister did so out of principle.

Now the founder of COMPAS is Conrad Winn. He of course being a fellow at the ultra right wing Fraser Institute. Link: http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/shared/author.asp?id=195

COMPAS is frequently used by more conservative, right-winged companies such as The National Post. For years Winn hung on as the National Post’s pollster, giving them the whinging right-wing trend lines that Terence Corcoran and The Fraser Institute demanded, instead of credible public opinion analysis and solid social science data.

What else can you say about the only pollster who cooked up push-polled conclusions stating a plurality of Canadians supported sending troops to fight with the United States because of the undeniable threat posed by Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction?

By the way, Winn is also someone with a Pro-Israel bias who cavorts with many Zionist groups.

Anarcho-sounds like a good idea, at least you have ideas. Got to do something, it is worth a try.

Thanks Climber, but I can't take credit for it. I believe this is more or less Noam Chomsky's position. While the "Two State solution" is not ideal, it is better than continuing the fighting.Undoubtedly the hard liners on both sides would object. But I have the example of the Basques and ETA. When the Basques were granted autonomy, support for the ETA melted away. At the same time the Francoists who opposed autonomy were also marginalized.

Colin
I guess you haven't read Sy Hersh's latest in the New Yorker, or the flaming criticism of Olmert in Ha'aretz. I posted the link on one of the other sites – the piece is on line right now.

Where have you been anyway?

I put your analysis of the embarrassing performance of the IDF against Hizbollah in the same category as your statement about the US winning the Vietnam war…utter garbage and pathetic wishful thinking. The IDF had their ass handed to them by Hizbollah and it is a good thing too. It’s quite evident from the comments of people Hersh interviewed for his column that the US saw this as a proxy war for them and a dumb show dress rehearsal for a campaign to take up Iran’s nuclear capability.

You spend too much time on those military websites and it is affecting your judgment my friend.

Israel won, the lowly UN even realised they had gone to far in their hatred of Israel.
We now have a deal on the table. The Security Council ( insecurity council { had to come up with some kind of deal. They normally don't. They saw the proxy war as it was. Iran and Syria against Israel ( US).
It appears Canadians are not a stupid as the majority of Tyee posters hoped they would be, again. Like the election of a conservative Govt., it's a shocker to many here.
Hey, pull your hair out, if you have any left.
The spread of misinformation on this site is becoming epidemic.
As Tom said only 38% of Canadians said that Hizbollah was responsible for the war. Now that sounds very low indeed. But what this spinmiester didn't say was that it wasn't 62& of Canadians thought it was Israel responsible for this mayhem, It was only 35%.
I think BS like this is easy for Canadians to see.
Nice try buddy.

Israel won?

Ron, have you read Sy Hersh in the New Yorker?

Have you been following the reaction to the big 'win' in Israel?

You are the biggest bloviator of misinformation anywhere, and the most sincere supporter of the hateful Ann Coulter too. I notice you haven’t yet apologized for posting her thoughts as if they were your own.

The reason there was a deal at the UN is because the US realized Israel was not going to be able to follow through on the little nudge, nudge, wink, wink deal that the two of them had cooked up.

Read the New Yorker piece. Hersh, unlike your little heroes, knows what he's talking about because he does his homework and because he’s not blind to the situation in the real world.

-IamClueless
Well, that may be, but being the open forum it is, the Tyee won't stop your error-plagued meanderings - very liberal of them....

Alcibiades, I did read Hersh's piece in the New Yorker - and there is a full interview with him posted at http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2006/s1714570.htm
Some can't help just telling like it is - but it is amazing how few can spot a mirage for what it is - even after experience should have taught them otherwise.

Alcibiades

I will respond to your posts later, but I have been crazy busy at work, out in the field and with family. I rather be playing with my daughter outside than argue with this crowd.

Thanks Avicenna; and you too Colin - enjoy your daughter.

Israel won? Hezbollah won? Isn't this a little childish? This isn't a pick up basketball game, it is an armed conflict where about 1000 civilians in Lebanon perished. It is not significant who wins. What is significant is that as human beings, we learn from the circumstances that gave rise to the war and try to fix them. We need to end the occupation of Lebanon once and for all, and create a state for the Palestinian people with Jerusalem as the capital. Arguing over who won will solve nothing....Do you think those Lebanese people who lost their homes, mothers, father, sons, daughters, granparents, friends and neighbours are celebrating a victory or crying in defeat? I for one, think they have bigger fish to fry.

P.S. Now that another war is over, can someone please show me where the weapons of mass destruction were/are?

Absolutely. Tom Joad. But, IAMC and Colin are not unique - watch and listen as the spinning begins.

" IAMC and Colin are not unique "

Of course not. There are many among us whose necks are of a redder hue than we would like

Colin,
When you find the time to respond - I know you're busy - here's one more commentary you might want to read (assuming you've already finished the Sy Hersh piece):
http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=34270

Of course, Colin, you may prefer this assessment from the LATimes yesterday. Somehow, to me at least, it sounds a lot like another thoroughly discredited speech delivered from the deck of an aircraft carrier.

You decide...

Bush Declares Hezbollah Defeated
By Johanna Neuman and Peter Wallsten
Times Staff Writers

2:11 PM PDT, August 14, 2006

President Bush today said Hezbollah suffered "a defeat" in its monthlong war against Israel.

"Hezbollah started the crisis, and Hezbollah suffered a defeat in this crisis," Bush said after meeting at the State Department with Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and her foreign policy team.

Conceding that the terrorist group has "a fantastic propaganda machine," Bush said Hezbollah lost because a still-forming international force will become "the new power" in southern Lebanon, and the international community will work to seal off the Syrian border that allows Hezbollah to be resupplied.

Bush, who met earlier in the day at the Pentagon with Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and his senior leaders, said the crisis in Lebanon gave the world a chance to see "what it means to confront terrorists…. It's a hard fight, it requires different tactics, solid will."

Calling the struggle against terrorism "the challenge of the 21st century," Bush said, "You got to have hope that ultimately freedom will prevail."

In a not-so-subtle chiding of the United Nations, Bush said that "none of this would have happened" if a previous resolution, 1559, "had been fully implemented." But he said the new U.N. cease-fire resolution was "an important step forward that will help bring an end to the violence."

Bush said several times that Hezbollah started the conflict with an unprovoked attack on Israel, without the Lebanese government's knowledge.

"Lebanon can't be a strong democracy when there is a state within a state and that's Hezbollah," he said.

Today's meetings were the first of several he plans this week with key policy teams. He was scheduled to meet Tuesday with experts at the National Counter-Terrorism Center in McLean, Va., and Friday he plans a summit with economic advisors at Camp David.

In past years, Bush held meetings in August at his ranch near Crawford, Texas. But this year, with wars dominating the news in Lebanon and Iraq, he returned earlier to Washington.

Alcibiades, aw shucks are you lonely, no one to talk with , no Imac, ron, colin, woodpecker, to encourage you on, here put your fat head on my lap, oops shouldn’t go there, after reading your suggestion of “enjoy your daughter” me suspects you might just be a mite kinky.

Alcibiades I was trying to be humorous , but upon re- reading my comment to you , I see that I failed miserably. Please accept my apology.

Apology accepted woody. Though I can't say I'm not tempted to turn your Margaret Mitchell inspired quote from the other day around on you.

I suspect we all find there are times that certain thoughts and ideas, once rendered in typescript, would have been better left unexpressed.

As Coyote wrote earlier, you might well find you share a lot more with some of your harshest critics than you imagine.

Avicenna:
Further to our discontinuous dialogue about what Canada and its idealistic young people could be doing in Afghanistan (for example), rather than what members of the Armed Forces 'are' doing, I found this article from Le Monde diplomatique (August 2006) to be interesting and enlightening. Especially given the kind of reaction any mention of Cuba usually attracts in the USA.

Interesting too in relation to the nominal subject of this thread - the Muslim mind - what ever that may be.

That Canada under its current leadership is surrendering any claim to moral authority it has had is a real tragedy in the making...apart from losing the opportunity to do something really worthwhile without, seemingly pointlessly, surrendering young lives to a demonstrated example of neo colonial pathology.

Here's the link - I hope it'll work.

http://mondediplo.com/2006/08/11cuba

Alcibiades, thanks for not being to harsh with me, I know I deserved it, and yes, I do owe the mangy Coyote an apology too, sorry there old timer.

Alcibiades, I certainly hope the current leadership is surrendering claim to moral authority - with their compass we'd be heading for the glaciers (wait, I think we're already there...). In a twist of irony, I was actually contemplating a quick cycling trip around Cuba - so your link is quite timely - especially since I was just perusing their advanced biological sciences programs (self interest due to my particular career trajectory). The demonization of socialism turns a blind eye to both its virtues as well as the gluttony inspired victims of capitalism. The loss of life (Canadian, Arab, Afghani, young, old, or otherwise) is gratuitous wastage - and it hurts everyone - no winners in this game whatsover - and anyone claiming otherwise is delusional beyond help.

Tom Joad - your articulate posts speak volumes - and your insight is certainly appreciated from this vantage. After viewing the before and after of Beruit after the Israeli attacks - I felt raw anger, angst, and frustration as someone coming home to such devastation http://electronicintifada.net/bytopic/maps/468.shtml
We have great empathy for those who have suffered great losses due to natural disasters - and I would think this kind of senseless destruction is even more hopeless. If there was even a modicum of justice in this world, Israel should have to pay for the rebuilding of all they have harshly destroyed - if this is what they call "targeted" attacks - I'd hate to see them be haphazard in their vandalism.

Thanks Avicenna.

There's a piece in the late edition of today's NYTimes (I reckon it'll be in tomorrow's papers elsewhere too) about how Hezbollah is rising to the task of helping the victims in Lebanon. You can find it here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/16/world/middleeast/16hezbollah.html?hp&ex=1155700800&en=ce2e2bfc4bd82c69&ei=5094&partner=homepage

I hope it'll open for you.

Don't hold your breath on Israeli reparations; although, to be honest, if they were smart they'd be paying for reconstruction too - without anyone leaning on them. This, as your satellite photos indicate, is a humanitarian and public relations disaster. Speaking of which did you watch the video flagged on the sideboard (billed I think with Chomsky’s name)?

Hi Folks,

I marvel at you guys - Alcibiades, Avicenna, Woody, Coyote , etc - in a positive sense.

I read Woody's totally target-missing shot at humor, thought he'd lost it. Then next post - wham! - he sees it without any reminder, and maturely apologizes. That's a good victory for reason in this world. Alcibiades (as the great philosopher-politician) then graciously accepts.

What a lovely exchange.

That set me thinking. What if politicians - particularly the Burning Bush - were a little more ready to simply say "Oops - sorry" whenever a strategy doesn't work out quite as intended? It would make it so much easier to change obviously faulty decisions as soon as they prove to be.

I mean, it's a fact of life that reality isn't totally forseeable. So why isn't that incorporated into our political discourse? Instead admitting mistakes is treated as showing defects - which it surely doesn't need to be. Rather the contrary - politicians need to be able to listen to the public and correct course accordingly. As when people say between ourselves: "Yeah, you're right," and act upon it by moving on. Happens all the time. Impossible to avoid. Yet politicians act as if faultlessness is expected of them. And the media correspondingly – and strangely codependently – are hunting for any and all mistakes as signs of weakness.

Makes me think admitting mistakes should be constitutionally protected, globally. It should be incorporated into the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and into the UN charter & Declaration of Human Rights: The Freedom to be Mistaken, with impunity.

I’m not kidding here. This is a good thought, and totally overlooked - for being embarassing, probably. But it’s nonetheless needed.

I look at my self, and I recall all the times I’ve been caught in defending a point or an act I’d much rather have dropped and apologized for, if only it was allowed for – instead of admission of mistake being set up for counting as defeat, and carrying other penalties.

How much better place the world might be, with a little more leeway for maturity.

Israel might have stopped killing Lebanese much earlier, Hizbollah might have trusted that the Israeli’s all by themselves could start being a little more sensitive to the needs of others, even the USA might have stopped building its wild arsenal by the middle of the 1950'ies (!) - if only admitting mistakes was internationally accepted between nations as comme il faut, and then we move on.

Call me a utopian. But I am.

Simple as this: No one CAN be right all the time. Not even the best politicians. The universe is too big and unpredictable for that. In fact it’s infinite, whereas the mind is not (mine isn't, at least, I've noticed - well, my factual knowledge I mean - mind itself may still be infinite, but that's quite another point, or infinite set, rather...)

That was a fiiine example you guys gave. Thanks.

Now, what has this got to do with books? Well, reading into different literatures has made me see differences, potential misunderstandings and human fallibility better, and from that the need for being allowed to undramatically admit mistakes.

Then, ONE minute after that posting, I encountered this article making much of the same point.

Synchronicity rules.

***

Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - Wall Street Journal
A Self-Defeating War
by George Soros

The war on terror is a false metaphor that has led to counterproductive and self-defeating policies. Five years after 9/11, a misleading figure of speech applied literally has unleashed a real war fought on several fronts -- Iraq, Gaza, Lebanon, Afghanistan, Somalia -- a war that has killed thousands of innocent civilians and enraged millions around the world. Yet al Qaeda has not been subdued; a plot that could have claimed more victims than 9/11 has just been foiled by the vigilance of British intelligence.
Unfortunately, the "war on terror" metaphor was uncritically accepted by the American public as the obvious response to 9/11. It is now widely admitted that the invasion of Iraq was a blunder. But the war on terror remains the frame into which American policy has to fit. Most Democratic politicians subscribe to it for fear of being tagged as weak on defense.
What makes the war on terror self-defeating?
· First, war by its very nature creates innocent victims. A war waged against terrorists is even more likely to claim innocent victims because terrorists tend to keep their whereabouts hidden. The deaths, injuries and humiliation of civilians generate rage and resentment among their families and communities that in turn serves to build support for terrorists.
· Second, terrorism is an abstraction. It lumps together all political movements that use terrorist tactics. Al Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah, the Sunni insurrection and the Mahdi army in Iraq are very different forces, but President Bush's global war on terror prevents us from differentiating between them and dealing with them accordingly. It inhibits much-needed negotiations with Iran and Syria because they are states that support terrorist groups.
· Third, the war on terror emphasizes military action while most territorial conflicts require political solutions. And, as the British have shown, al Qaeda is best dealt with by good intelligence. The war on terror increases the terrorist threat and makes the task of the intelligence agencies more difficult. Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri are still at large; we need to focus on finding them, and preventing attacks like the one foiled in England.
· Fourth, the war on terror drives a wedge between "us" and "them." We are innocent victims. They are perpetrators. But we fail to notice that we also become perpetrators in the process; the rest of the world, however, does notice. That is how such a wide gap has arisen between America and much of the world.
Taken together, these four factors ensure that the war on terror cannot be won. An endless war waged against an unseen enemy is doing great damage to our power and prestige abroad and to our open society at home. It has led to a dangerous extension of executive powers; it has tarnished our adherence to universal human rights; it has inhibited the critical process that is at the heart of an open society; and it has cost a lot of money. Most importantly, it has diverted attention from other urgent tasks that require American leadership, such as finishing the job we so correctly began in Afghanistan, addressing the looming global energy crisis, and dealing with nuclear proliferation.
With American influence at low ebb, the world is in danger of sliding into a vicious circle of escalating violence. We can escape it only if we Americans repudiate the war on terror as a false metaphor. If we persevere on the wrong course, the situation will continue to deteriorate. It is not our will that is being tested, but our understanding of reality. It is painful to admit that our current predicaments are brought about by our own misconceptions. However, not admitting it is bound to prove even more painful in the long run. The strength of an open society lies in its ability to recognize and correct its mistakes. This is the test that confronts us.

Thanks Ullern,

Too bad the simplest things are often the tallest orders.

But, as Pope put it..."(N)ot to go back, is somewhat to advance,
And men must walk at least before they dance,"

Hezbollah won the war and now its going to decisively win the peace. Nice to see they've been reading the literature on what separates a successful geurilla group from the also-rans. The successful ones are there when the bullets aren't flying. Hezbollah is becoming intrinsic to southern Lebanese society.

If Nasrallah comes through, and I'm sure he will, and Hezbollah picks up the pieces it will just draw the lebanese people closer to them.

Meanwhile Israeli defence officials should do some reading of their own and see why they failed to win the hearts of those they bombed, just like every other strategic bombing advocate in history.

Frank, I fear that the occupiers in present day israel have lost their culture somewhere between their growth from David to their current Goliath like stance bolstered by American weapons - so whether they are literate enough to glean something about their barbarism is unlikely to shed enough light for them to see that they are no longer the pitied victims of an unjust Christian comdemnation - but are the perpetrators of the same kind of intolerance and impunity on the ones who had sheltered them in by-gone eras. Irony without the punchline.

Ullern: There are mistakes - like - oops - I bought fastcat ferries and it wasn't as good a deal as first anticipated; or oops - I was a drunk bastard - a la our inebriated Mel whose verbal faux pas has yet to be accepted by the American public who can overlook killing thousands of civilians and destroying the "cradle of civilization" on a bogus excuse - but not drunken freudian slips - such is the case when freedom of speech is advocated but unacceptable. The hypocrisy runs just too deep to be honest in such a society - and where the British may have turned to their "intelligence" - there is not much of that down south I'm afraid.

Alcibiades - your link regarding the rebuilding efforts being underway is somewhat heartening - and the fact it is likely coming from Iran will go a long way in uniting the Persians with the Arabs with a common front. This really does look like the beginning of the end of Israel's dominant stature, and any allies that the US may have had are unlikely to be there for them in the future as their two-facedness was hideously exposed over this bloodshed. Oh what a tangled web we weave....

And, speaking of minds, the collective Canadian mindset seems to be changing if the poll numbers in today's G & M are to be believed. Here's just a flavour of the results:

By Jeff Sallot

Ottawa -- As Canadian casualty figures climb, public support drops for the
military operation in Afghanistan, according to a new poll that suggests a
55-per-cent majority now oppose sending troops to that troubled country.

The minority Conservative government also seems to be out of step with the
public mood on support for Israel in its war with Hezbollah. A plurality of
44 per cent of poll respondents said they disagree with Stephen Harper's
support for Israel, while only 33 per cent said they agree with the Prime
Minister.

Opposition to Mr. Harper's position on these two foreign policy issues is
strongest in Quebec, a province he has been courting in the hope of building
a national majority in the next election.

But even in the rest of the country, including the Conservative-dominated
West, most Canadians clearly believe the Afghan mission is a mistake.

The poll by the Strategic Counsel for The Globe and Mail and CTV was
conducted from Thursday through Sunday, a period in which Canadian news was
dominated by a string of casualties suffered by the Canadian Forces in
Afghanistan. A thousand Canadian adults responded to the poll, which should
be accurate nationally within 3.1 percentage points.

Support for the Afghan mission has been sliding since March and is now at
its lowest point. Mr. Harper paid a surprise visit to the troops in
Afghanistan in early March. Polls just after that showed a 55-per-cent
majority supporting sending troops. The numbers have now flipped, with 55
per cent saying they oppose the involvement and only 37 per cent saying they
support the mission.

A follow-up question suggests that opposition to the Afghanistan policy is
even stronger if people are reminded of the casualties. Asked if the lives
of more than 20 Canadian soldiers was too high a price to pay to bring
stability and peace to Afghanistan, 58 per cent said it was. Only 36 per
cent said it is the price that must be paid. About 6 per cent didn't know or
didn't answer.

Canadians across the country increasingly say they oppose sending Canadian
troops to Afghanistan and believe the Conservative government is taking a
lopsided stance on Israeli military action in Lebanon.

Do you support or oppose sending Canadian troops to Afghanistan?

CANADA OVERALL
Support: 37%
Oppose: 55%
Don't know: 8%

QUEBEC
Support: 21%
Oppose: 75%
Don't know: 4%

REST OF CANADA
Support: 42%
Oppose: 49%
Don't know: 9%

Do you agree with Prime Minister Harper's support for Israeli actions?

CANADA OVERALL
Agree: 33%
Disagree: 44%
Neither agree or disagree: 17%
Don't know: 6%

QUEBEC
Agree: 12%
Disagree: 63%
Neither agree or disagree: 22%
Don't know: 4%

REST OF CANADA
Agree: 40%
Disagree: 38%
Neither agree or disagree: 16%
Don't know: 6%

Note: Percentages may not add up to 100 due to rounding.

SOURCE: THE STRATEGIC COUNSEL

Who cares what Canadians think, it's Hollywood that counts.
It's interesting that Nichole Kidman, Michael Douglas, Dennis Hopper, Slt Stallone, Bruce Willis, Danny De Vito, Don Johnson, James Woods, Kelly Preston, William Hurt as well as directors Ridley Scott, Michael Mann, Tony Scott and Dick Donner, Gee I don't see Michael Moore's name on that list, wrote an open letter that surprisingly condemned Hizbollah and Hamas, and terrorism in general, and supported Israel to the hilt.
I think we need a few proper polls taken to judge Canadians opinions on this matter.
I haven't run into anyone that I talk to, that is not pro Israel. I would have thought someone would be. All my associates are not like me.
The Strategic Council argument is old news.
How could two separate polling firms ( Compas ) be so absolutely different. Mirror images of each other.
I need more information than Alc's pitiful comments.

Ron, these aren't my comments. As I stated above, the information is right from the Globe and Mail - today.

I know you don't actually read newspapers so I summarized it for you.

Would you like me to post what you said a week ago about loving polls?

We're not talking about Hezbollah and Israel or what a bunch of actors think here Ron, were talking about what Canadians think - I'd be surprised if anyone you knew and associated with thinks any more deeply than you do.

By the way, the poll was conducted from Thursday to Sunday of last week - as it clearly says above - hardly old news old man.

I know it's tough to admit when you're out of your depth.

Alc; You won't be surprised when UN Resolution !701 fails. The resolution that puts UN troops, headed by France ( they hope ) into a hopeless situation that isn't even backed by the Govt. of Lebanon, is a disaster.
Israel has only to sit and wait until it fails. Once that happens they will have a green light to finish up the job of destroying some of their enemies.
More fool you, to think anything else.
I am looking forward to claiming this victory of argument sometime soon.
I guess world powers didn't want to face the final countdown right now. But eventually we will all have to take sides.

"Who cares what Canadians think, it's Hollywood that counts." Wow, you really don't know what you're talking about at all. How is what Hollywood thinks significant to Canada's foreign policy? After all aren't the Conservatives in the US the ones who coined the term "holllyweird" due to the open mindnedness of Hollywood as opposed to the rednecks of the south?

"I haven't run into anyone that I talk to, that is not pro Israel".

Maybe you should hang out somewhere other than Televangelist tapings and rodeos.

"How could two separate polling firms ( Compas ) be so absolutely different."
Obviously you fail to understand statistics, much liek everything else. Lemme re post what I wrote above:

Anyone who believes the Compas poll (shown in the Asper Zionist press) is a moron. They only surveryed 500 people. For a National poll, the number should exced 1000. (The Strategic Counsel polled 1,000 Canadians. )

Compas arrived at its conclusion that Canadians supported Harper after asking the following four questions:

— Does Israel have a right to defend itself? (82 per cent responded in the affirmative)

— Was Iran wrong to arm Hezbollah and call for the destruction of Israel? (69 per cent agreed)

— Was Syria wrong to arm Hezbollah and disobey the United Nations resolution requiring Syria to keep guns out of Lebanon? (68 per cent agreed)

— Did Hezbollah in Lebanon start the war? (Just 38 per cent agreed)

Compas then took those four responses, AVERAGED THEM OUT, and concluded that 64 per cent of Canadians supported Harper's policy.

That's like saying the average Canadian has one testicle (if you average amount the number of testicles in canada).

Now the founder of COMPAS is Conrad Winn. He of course being a fellow at the ultra right wing Fraser Institute. Link: http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/shared/author.asp?id=195

COMPAS is frequently used by more conservative, right-winged companies such as The National Post. For years Winn hung on as the National Post’s pollster, giving them the whinging right-wing trend lines that Terence Corcoran and The Fraser Institute demanded, instead of credible public opinion analysis and solid social science data.

What else can you say about the only pollster who cooked up push-polled conclusions stating a plurality of Canadians supported sending troops to fight with the United States because of the undeniable threat posed by Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction?

By the way, Winn is also someone with a Pro-Israel bias who cavorts with many Zionist groups.

Hope that helps

Iamclueless/Ron has a very low opinion of Canadianss. He thinks they are all as ignorant as he is. Sorry, but poll after poll show they are not, especially in Quebec, or as I suppose the clueless one would say, Queebec...

Oh yeah, and COMPAS and their Zionist President also said in the 97 election that Canadian Alliance support in Ontario was "solid like a diamond" and that Preston Manning would be our new PM.

Not much new in your arguments. More of the same self loathing, guilt ridden thoughts that are unproductive to everyone including yourselves.
It's simple really. We are the good guys.
Radical Islam ( Islamofacism ) is not principled. It uses as a host, many fine people.

As I have said, we need a few more opinion polls to se what Canadians think.

You are not a good guy Ron. In fact, I'm beginning to think you may actually be a fascist. How do you interpret any of this as guilt on the part of anyone except yourself? In fact, you're the one saying the things you ought to be ashamed of.

I hope it's just the liquor talking.

I guess you're even prouder of your lady Ann Coulter since she called Al Gore a fag.

Pathetic and deeply shameful behavior.

- IamClueless
LOL - or in your case, how you don't....
Are you part of the great Evangelical conspiracy, IamClueless? It may be puzzling why all these previously so-called "anti-semetic" right wing dingbats and fearful puritans who lead by the rod with a angry God would want to herd all the Jews to the holy land. It is obviously the best way to make sure that before they bring the world to an end - they'll offer them (the Jews) the do or die right of accepting Jesus as their Saviour or else unleashing the wrath of madness with Georgie heading the loony brigade with Pat Robinson preaching about the beauty of the bomblit sky. This is not about "radical islamists" - heck, the Arabs were protectors of the Jews (being next of kin and all) from vengeful Christians in eras gone by. Even the Pope has pegged little George W. as the anti-Christ. Is this the way you want things to end, clueless?

Ann Coulter called Al Gore a fag? I think he is just a mega hypocrite but I guess that makes sense, seeing as Ann Coulter used to be a man. It is so fuking obviuos.

climber
Clinton too apparently; but she said she was joking about Bill - about Hillary - I suspect she’ll leave that one on the table.

I think you can see the clip (from Chris Matthew's on YouTube) Oh shit! you're on dial up aren't you?

Ann Coulter has a penis. IAMC has no arguments left so he posted with the most pathetic method of posting known since the advent of the internet, ie: All your arguments suck but I won't tell you why. So let me simplify the issue in black and white.

Unfortunately for him, international conflicts are more complex than that.

Who knows the western mind?

Thank you, Alcibiades, for posting Goldfarb's article illustrating that societies are made up of a plurality of voices, and some are not always agreable to listen to as indicated by some of the comments posted here.