The Hook

So why Cruise ships?

So why Cruise ships? Victoria is not as busy as Vancouver, but has quite a sizeable volume of marine traffic, especially off Beacon Hill Park where ships slow down to board and disembark pilots and then get back up to speed.

There's also Esquimalt with the drydock and the Cdn. Forces Navy base there.

Victoria is also exposed to windy conditions.

If this is such a concern to the Regional District, have they asked the Port of Victoria to consider shore power provisions dockside?

The cruise ships are the

The cruise ships are the worst parasites with their record of slave labour, huge pollution from the toilets of thousands of people jammed into those ugly monsters, and now with their emissions.

The BC, or Vancouver, or Victoria governments are not going to do anything to bring them into civilization, because of the "monies" they allegedly bring, which overrules all forms of logic and human decency.

The funny thing is that I have built and installed certain items on the original cruise ships, the converted Canadian minesweepers, or destroyer escorts, the Yukon Star and the Alaska Queen, back in the in the sixties, which may have been really fun experience to cruise on, but I wouldn't set foot on these sickening monsters if they paid me.

What in hell can people see in them?

Ed Deak.

Read the report

The concerns are well-founded. The suggestion that Esquimalt has anything to do with the cruise ship situation would not even occur to someone who actually knows the geographical layout of the district.

Why cruise ships

BC Boy, I'm not sure if you're asking why the report is blaming the cruise ships for the elevated level of sulphur dioxide or asking why cruise ships are having an impact.

In either case, a couple things may add clarity. First, the cruise ships do more than pass by. Many of the ships on the Alaska run stop in Victoria. The last couple of years there've been over 200 each year with each one staying for an average of something like five hours. There is no shore power available, and the Harbour Authority has rejected the idea in the past, so they are burning fuel and releasing emissions while in port.

Second, the authors of the CRD report go into detail on how observations of elevated levels of sulphur dioxide, nitrous gases and some particulate matter clearly go up when cruise ships are visiting. The report is full of charts that show spikes that they say correlate with the cruise ship schedule.

I hope that helps.

Iding ships and not cruise ships

A poster sez:

"The concerns are well-founded. The suggestion that Esquimalt has anything to do with the cruise ship situation would not even occur to someone who actually knows the geographical layout of the district."

The concerns may be well founded, but Esquimalt is a harbour with idling ships,
particularly at the drydock. Has nothing to do with the cruise ships per se, but
idling marine engines of the size found on cruise ships are also used aboard other vessels that occiasionally can be found in
the Esqimalt area.

The reporter and report

"BC Boy, I'm not sure if you're asking why the report is blaming the cruise ships for the elevated level of sulphur dioxide or asking why cruise ships are having an impact. "

The report seems to be blaming the cruise ships from what the reporter has written.

"In either case, a couple things may add clarity. First, the cruise ships do more than pass by. Many of the ships on the Alaska run stop in Victoria. The last couple of years there've been over 200 each year with each one staying for an average of something like five hours. "

Correct, there were about 25 vessels making 215 calls in 2009, most of these
were from Seattle.

"There is no shore power available, and the Harbour Authority has rejected the idea in the past, so they are burning fuel and releasing emissions while in port. "

The burning of fuel is to keep the generators running for power. So there's the problem. The solution to maintain the
economic benifits of the cruise ships
being there would be the supply of shore
power. The Port of Vancouver has recently
installed shore power at both Ballantyne
and Canada Place, so there's an initiative
for the Port of Victoria to do the same,
if the City and Regional District tried again.

Second, the authors of the CRD report go into detail on how observations of elevated levels of sulphur dioxide, nitrous gases and some particulate matter clearly go up when cruise ships are visiting. The report is full of charts that show spikes that they say correlate with the cruise ship schedule.

I hope that helps.

It does. Thank you.

People see a value vacation, Ed

"The cruise ships are the worst parasites with their record of slave labour, huge pollution from the toilets of thousands of people jammed into those ugly monsters, and now with their emissions."

No more air emissions while at sea than freighters.

"The BC, or Vancouver, or Victoria governments are not going to do anything to bring them into civilization, because of the "monies" they allegedly bring, which overrules all forms of logic and human decency. "

They have, there are restrictions on
dumping bilge and grey water in BC inland
coastal waters.

"The funny thing is that I have built and installed certain items on the original cruise ships, the converted Canadian minesweepers, or destroyer escorts, the Yukon Star and the Alaska Queen, back in the in the sixties, which may have been really fun experience to cruise on, but I wouldn't set foot on these sickening monsters if they paid me."

I wouldn't go aboard for an Alaskan Cruise
on those myself since there is an alternative more interesting means of sailing available along the same route

What in hell can people see in them?

They see a value vacation since a cruise
to the Caribbean and so forth can be had for as little as $150.00 a day. Had friends
who went on a South American cruise to places they've never seen before and love to travel.

Many go for the casinos and wanting to be
at sea (there's no chance of being out in
open waters at Big Lake, Quesnel or Saskatoon Saskatchewan).

It is the choice of people to take a cruise as it is Eds' not to.

Just as it is to go camping near Alexis
Creek Chiko Lake or north of Fort St. James.

There is no connection

You've obviously never been to Victoria - or Esquimalt - or, if you have, you didn't actually look at the characteristics of either place. The proximity to the cruise ship anchorage at Ogden Point to residential areas of James Bay is not difficult to understand - and the problem, when as many as four of these tubs are anchored there spewing noxious fumes for hours on end - is very different from anything you might see in a dry-dock, which is, for anyone who knows about it, and entirely different thing.

Cruise ships contribute little or nothing of real value to the local economy except for a few restaurants, some bus and limousine operators (also spewing into the environment) and Butchart Gardens.

Most of the people in James Bay would 'choose' not to have them there at all. Given the health concerns, it’s not hard to see why. If Vancouver wants the bloody things – they’re more then welcome to them – with my blessings.

Been to Victoria

"You've obviously never been to Victoria - or Esquimalt - or, if you have, you didn't actually look at the characteristics of either place. "

Been to Victoria many times. Last time was
last November. Amazing how this poster
can predicate the fact "obviouslyt never
been to Victoria". Potential talent for that sideshow booth at the PNE next year
for him/her.

"The proximity to the cruise ship anchorage at Ogden Point to residential areas of James Bay is not difficult to understand - and the problem, when as many as four of these tubs are anchored there spewing noxious fumes for hours on end - is very different from anything you might see in a dry-dock, which is, for anyone who knows about it, and entirely different thing."

Am aware where the Ogden Dock is. The breakwater can easily be been in relationship to the residential area on a
publicly accessible webcam.

"Cruise ships contribute little or nothing of real value to the local economy except for a few restaurants, some bus and limousine operators (also spewing into the environment) and Butchart Gardens."

Well not exactly, there's the union longshoremen and the provision suppliers. Tourism brings in quite a bit of contribution to the Victoria economy.

"Most of the people in James Bay would 'choose' not to have them there at all."

Is this poster an advocate for James Bay?
Has han actual poll been done to validate his assumption? If there was such a large
uprising against the cruise ships not being there, it would have happened by now.

"Given the health concerns, it’s not hard to see why. If Vancouver wants the bloody things – they’re more then welcome to them – with my blessings."

The poster's blessings wouldn't have much merit in repositioning cruise ships, but granted Vancouver could use more visits
from cruise ships.

They don't provision here

In fact, their time in port amounts to less than 24 hours. The passengers aren't tourists in anything other than a very temporary and completely itinerant sense - hotels in the city never see them since they bunk on board in their own staterooms.

If they don't schlep themselves out to Butchart Gardens in a convenient but antiquated and filthy old London diesel burning double-decker bus their 'experience' of the city often amounts to little more than a walking “cruise” along that Ogden Point breakwater.

The ‘poster’ - whose name is G West (what's yours BCBoy?) - does live in Victoria and actually knows what he's talking about. The cruise ships, when in harbour, are INSIDE the breakwater....busily belching a noxious spew of gases into the atmosphere the people of the adjacent area LIVE IN....ALL THE TIME. Get it?

As for uprisings, why should that be necessary if the filthy things are harming peoples' health? That's what health and public safety regulations are all about.

Take 'em Vancouver - your filthy atmosphere would hardly notice the additional insult.

The ships come her as a

The ships come her as a convenience to the ship companies to comply with the Jones Act that basically says that a foreign ship leaving the US of A must stop somehwere before re-entering US territory. They stink up James Bay and yes the locals have complained for years about them running their large generators at all hours. They don't appear keen on the idea of using shore power so the argument goes round and round

Victorian visits

"In fact, their time in port amounts to less than 24 hours. The passengers aren't tourists in anything other than a very temporary and completely itinerant sense - hotels in the city never see them since they bunk on board in their own staterooms."

Wrong actually. They are visiting downtown
Victoria. Doesn't make sense to take in
a room for just a 5 hour layover.

"If they don't schlep themselves out to Butchart Gardens in a convenient but antiquated and filthy old London diesel burning double-decker bus their 'experience' of the city often amounts to little more than a walking “cruise” along that Ogden Point breakwater."

Perhaps, but the majority are enjoying the
Inner Harbour walks.

"The ‘poster’ - whose name is G West (what's yours BCBoy?) - does live in Victoria and actually knows what he's talking about. The cruise ships, when in harbour, are INSIDE the breakwater"

No kidding. I mentioned the breakwater
is visible from a public webcam as is
a portion of the nearby residential area,
not the pier itself.

For someone who thinks he knows alot about everything, there's quite a bit missing off
his boat.

"....busily belching a noxious spew of gases into the atmosphere the people of the adjacent area LIVE IN....ALL THE TIME. Get it?

Obviously the poster doesn't.

"As for uprisings, why should that be necessary if the filthy things are harming peoples' health? That's what health and public safety regulations are all about."

Well get busy and discuss with the Port of
Victoria. I'm sure they would be interested in the 'expertise'

"Take 'em Vancouver - your filthy atmosphere would hardly notice the additional insult."

What insult? Vancouver has the provision
for additional cruise ships and the City
does welcome the activity. There's no problem with the cruise ships being here,
and if they're docked at Canada Place, there is shore power available now.

But as mentioned by another poster, the reason for the stop is the Jones Act. Cruise ships cannot simply start from Seattle and go to Alaska without being
manned with US crews and being US registered, so hence the stop in Victoria
and also Nanaimo for Seattle originating
ships.

Not wrong

They stop in for short layovers - often as little as five hours - during which time local eateries like Milestones fall over themselves trying to squeeze as much change as possible from the on-board marks while they're in port....I'm sure the hotels would sell them a room for a quickie if that was what they were dreaming of - hasn't made much of dent in the vacancy rate though.

As I said, Mr anonymous, Vancouver is more than welcome to their spew, their commerce and their continued presence.

With our blessings.

See Victoria then come Bring 'em over

"They stop in for short layovers - often as little as five hours - during which time local eateries like Milestones fall over themselves trying to squeeze as much change as possible from the on-board marks while they're in port...."

Nothing wrong with that, if the cruise passengers want to go to Milestones, so what?

"I'm sure the hotels would sell them a room for a quickie if that was what they were dreaming of - hasn't made much of dent in the vacancy rate though."

These 5 hour stop overs aren't marketed
by the hotels. The hotels are more interested in the weekend visitors from
Seattle and longer stay vacationers.

"As I said, Mr anonymous, Vancouver is more than welcome to their spew, their commerce and their continued presence."

No problem there, Vancouver always has room for another cruise ship or two..

"With our blessings."

A bit of an odd statement, is this poster an overall representative of Victoria? The
entire tourism industry in the Victoria area? Works for the Victoria Tourist Bureau?

But back to the original topic, if there is concern about polluants from the cruise ships by citizens, the Regional District, the City of Victoria in working with the Port of Victoria can come up with a solution to bring shore power to the pier.

It's just a matter of the will to get it done.

It's been a problem for ages

And nothing's been done heretofore.

It this report actually causes some concern and initiates change well and good.

I'd rather just lose the stupid cruise ships and let the pollution go where they seem to like it better - the lower mainland.

Victoria has enough of a problem dealing with it's own untreated sewage - it doesn't need more pollution.

Will has nothing to do with it Mr Anonymous.

If there's a will, there's a way.

"And nothing's been done heretofore."

Not yet, anyway.

"It this report actually causes some concern and initiates change well and good."

That's what the report is supposed to do,
bring out outcomes and invoke discussion
from which positive solutions come out.

"I'd rather just lose the stupid cruise ships and let the pollution go where they seem to like it better - the lower mainland."

Kind of closed minded. The Port of Victoria and the City has welcomed the
cruise ships and passengers, no matter what
one upside down frowned person thinks.

"Victoria has enough of a problem dealing with it's own untreated sewage - it doesn't need more pollution."

a tenth of a point awarded there.

Will has nothing to do with it Mr Anonymous."

Actually it does. As in a will to correct
the sewage problem, and to provide a solution for the emission levels from
tied up cruise ships at Ogden Pier.

Change is only going to come if people
actually act on a positive solution.

Constantly whining about the problem isn't
going to resolve anything.

So now that this report is out, it can
be reviewed by the CRD, the City of Victoria and the Port of Victoria to come up with a workable solution.

Whining isn't going to help.

Seems BC Boy knows little or

Seems BC Boy knows little or nothing about Victoria. But he or she or the agency she or he works for keeps telling us things that the locals simply don't agree with. A large number of the folks on the ships don't even get off them. Sure a few boosters assemle to try to lure them off to some stores, a rid in a pedal operated tour thing or a horse drawn deal. The docks are rather uninviting and a walk to town center doesn't seem to be a must thing for the travellers. Bucharts is sort of nice first time around but is quite a way from downtown and now costs an arm or leg to get there, and into the place. The COHO arrives right down town a most folks wander around and even buy a few things. Cuban cigars being a best seller

A few little facts

A previous poster sez:

"Seems BC Boy knows little or nothing about Victoria. But he or she or the agency she or he works for keeps telling us things that the locals simply don't agree with."
A few facts:

Victoria: With just under 452,000
passengers and 219 sailings, Victoria
continues to gain in popularity as a
cruise destination. The total economic
impact of Victoria’s cruise sector
increased over 2008 – from $148.2
million to $164.2 million – a rise of approximately 10%. Passenger and crew
expenditures went from $29 million to
$33.6 million and cruise line expenditures
also rose from $48.9 million to
$53.4 million. The cruise industry in
Victoria also generated 524 jobs (430
full time equivalent), rising to 1,024
(848 full time equivalent) jobs generated
indirectly." (Cruise BC)

and if you can waddle out the door

and to the previous posters thinking they both are representatives for everyone in James Bay, turn off the computer and waddle down to Ogden Point to see a bit of construction:

The Port of Victoria is expanding capacity at the pier:

http://www.timescolonist.com/entertainment/music/Mooring+magnet+massive+cruise+ships/2549801/story.html

Face facts, boys. The emission problems can be corrected, but the fact remains that the cruise ships are an economic boost to Victoria no matter to what degree there is whining and complaining about them being there during the summer.

Nothing will be corrected

These chamber of commerce idiots know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

In fact, the federal neo cons and the provincial neocons are also doing their best to turn parts of the inner harbour into a yacht basin.

Whoop de doo!

It also interesting to note that Campbell's idiot gas tax applies to neither cruise ships nor airlines - simply two of the greatest and most troublesome producers of pollution and greenhouse gases.

It's not a question of knowing what these idiots are - it's simply a question of making the voting public aware of what they're up to.

Not hard to find examples of the genre in cyberspace either, apparently.

Send ‘em all back to where they came from – 530 minimum wage jobs in the lowest minimum wage jurisdiction in the country isn’t much to cheer about – the cruise ships are simply stopping here so they can continue to pay their crews peanuts anyway. That we’re a part of this scam is simply reprehensible: So a bunch of fat tourists can waddle around the inner harbour for a couple of hours.

Another day and another whine

"These chamber of commerce idiots know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

and the previous poster is an expert
on tourism and the economic benifits
to Victoria over anyone else involved
in business in the area?

"In fact, the federal neo cons and the provincial neocons are also doing their best to turn parts of the inner harbour into a yacht basin."

Hasn't been passed yet. There isn't any provincial neo-cons, unless there is
thinking of the Provincial Conservative Party.

The same thing - cruise ships in Victoria
would still happen under the NDP.

"It also interesting to note that Campbell's idiot gas tax applies to neither cruise ships nor airlines - simply two of the greatest and most troublesome producers of pollution and greenhouse gases."

Whiners and complainers after eating
a bean burrito?

Airlines and cruise ship fuels are taxes
at the federal level.

"It's not a question of knowing what these idiots are - it's simply a question of making the voting public aware of what they're up to."

Enter the NDP.

"Send ‘em all back to where they came from – 530 minimum wage jobs in the lowest minimum wage jurisdiction in the country isn’t much to cheer about – the cruise ships are simply stopping here so they can continue to pay their crews peanuts anyway."

Tourism can't run on $20.00 an hour jobs.

amazing how the previous poster can decide for everyone what is best for Victoria. Real talent. Should run for office. For the NDP.

"That we’re a part of this scam is simply reprehensible: So a bunch of fat tourists can waddle around the inner harbour for a couple of hours"

and spend money in the local shops to keep small business happening in Victoria.

and what happenes when the previous poster
visits another part of BC?

Waddles around the city centre for a couple of hours looking for the local pub.

Provincial NEO CONS

BC Liberal Party.

I really shouldn't bother

I really shouldn't bother trying to get BC Boy to understand that we live in the village of Victoria, we do spend time down at the water front and yes some money is being spent to put in a Dolphin to assist the bigger ships, but the really large ones simply have too much draft to safely dock here. One wonders just how often BC Boy drops by to keep abreast of the issues? we almost bought a condo just across the road, but between the boats and the helicopters, the noise and smells convinced us to move into Vic West. I don't think the local C of Commerce is coming up with the funds for the dolphin, so its the locals who will be paying. Victoria is simple a stop to comply with the Jones Act as I mentioned before. A couple of other places up the coast are trying to get the same traffic.
We know nothing locals use the small restaurant beside the docks when the wind is right. Almost forgot , its common to see some of those boats anchor off Esquimalt due to cross winds at the dock.

A question of length, not draft.

"I really shouldn't bother trying to get BC Boy to understand that we live in the village of Victoria, we do spend time down at the water front and yes some money is being spent to put in a Dolphin to assist the bigger ships, but the really large ones simply have too much draft to safely dock here."

The project is to address length, not draft. Part of the project does include
dredging according to the Times-Colonist
article.

"One wonders just how often BC Boy drops by to keep abreast of the issues?"

How often does the previous poster? And just how wide is his peripheral vision?

"we almost bought a condo just across the road, but between the boats and the helicopters, the noise and smells convinced us to move into Vic West."

At least this person did the homework. If a potential buyer doesn't like the environment they can move. Obviously there are others living in James Bay.

"I don't think the local C of Commerce is coming up with the funds for the dolphin, so its the locals who will be paying."

Um not exactly. The costs are borne by the
Port of Victoria, and there's problably a federal grant involved, so there would be
minimal if any effect on civic spending,
other than a contribution from the City. It is a Port of Victoria project, who runs
the Ogden Dock, not the city.

" Victoria is simple a stop to comply with the Jones Act as I mentioned before. A couple of other places up the coast are trying to get the same traffic."

For the same economic benifits. Nanaimo and Campbell River are also vying for part of the trade, and why not? It brings in
additional economic activity to the local areas.

"We know nothing locals use the small restaurant beside the docks when the wind is right."

yeah so?

"Almost forgot , its common to see some of those boats anchor off Esquimalt due to cross winds at the dock."

he pier can only tie up 2 of the ships
at a time, hence the offshore anchorage. There's no dedicated anchorage off Brotchie Ledge, so the ships would anchor
off Esquimalt.

Someone in Victoria has an upside down frown all the time.

Drop in Vancoiuver Cruise ship traffic

I presume that the Victoria stops are from cruise ships based in Seattle. My wife was looking into Alaska cruise departures from Vancouver for family friends in Europe. Basically, from a peak of 3 departures per day from Vancouver a few years ago, it is now down to 3 a WEEK.

Apparently, with all the new border security, Americans prefer NOT to cross the border into Canada, and instead go on Seattle-based cruises.

And, yes, I've read about how successful the IMO has been at avoiding regulation for the quality of the fuel these ships burn. It's catch-up time....

Victoria gets the visitors from Seattle

"I presume that the Victoria stops are from cruise ships based in Seattle. "

They are. Arises from the U.S. Jones Act which requires ships sailing from one U.S.
port to another be registred in the U.S.
and have U.S. crews aboard. So the cruise ships depart Seattle and stop in Victoria
before continuing on to Alaska. The same manifestation is used for ships departing
Vancouver.

"My wife was looking into Alaska cruise departures from Vancouver for family friends in Europe. Basically, from a peak of 3 departures per day from Vancouver a few years ago, it is now down to 3 a WEEK."

Cruise sailings were down from 2007, largely due to the global recession, but are expected to be more but wouldn't be
the same levels as 2004-07 which was the
peak seasons.

"Apparently, with all the new border security, Americans prefer NOT to cross the border into Canada, and instead go on Seattle-based cruises. "

Quite correct. The border crossings have
been an issue as has the taxation the State of Alaska has imposed on cruises to the state.

"And, yes, I've read about how successful the IMO has been at avoiding regulation for the quality of the fuel these ships burn. It's catch-up time...."

It is catch-up time, but there is a migation of balance between the benifits
of having the cruise ships in Victoria for the economic benfits, and the abatement
of pollutants into the local James Bay
Ogden Point area.

Bunker fuel is not like diesel, it is heavier and also acts as a lubricant for the engines that use the fuel. Some of
the ships have diesel engines which turn the generators but not all of them are so fitted.

The economic benifits are many, and a move towards shore power facilities would over time save the cruise ship companies money in terms of fuel burned to keeping the generators turning.

The word "may"

All this article points out is that the word "may" is now becoming the most over used word in the English language.

I also love the way G West trifles with peoples livelihoods.

he does that.

"All this article points out is that the word "may" is now becoming the most over used word in the English language.

I also love the way G West trifles with peoples livelihoods."

He does that, plus thinking he is the sole representative for the Victoria James Bay area and everyone believes in what his position is.

Plus he has a real talent for predicting what people do, and where they are from,
and who they are.

A potential talent for a PNE booth.

More offensive, ad hominem comments

When someone's livelihood 'trifles' with other peoples' health and well-being in their own homes and gardens someone Needs to deal with them.

The cruise ship 'industry' exists by exploiting cheap foreign labour...and minimum wage/subsistence jobs here in Victoria...

'May' has NOTHING to do with it.

Nice friends!

http://www.waronwant.org/past-campaigns/sweat-ships

More crying.. what a shame

"When someone's livelihood 'trifles' with other peoples' health and well-being in their own homes and gardens someone Needs to deal with them."

Sure. and the above poster over anyone else>

The cruise ship 'industry' exists by exploiting cheap foreign labour...and minimum wage/subsistence jobs here in Victoria...

'May' has NOTHING to do with it.

The minimum wage jobs in Victoria existed well before the cruise ships arrived.

If the poster is all that concerned about it, he should go to the Victoria NDP MLAs office with a box of kleenex.

Whining here isn't going to help.

If a huge amount of people were hugely concerned about wages aboard ship, the cruise ship industry wouldn't exist.

Most the wages paid aboard ship are much more than what most of the crews would get at home in their third world countries.

and he should also think of the wages paid to those who put his computer together. That isn't exactly huge wages either.

'May' has everything to do with it.

Actually I meant to use the word trivialize ,as in trivializes people's livelihoods, but hit the comment button too soon. As always you would rather criticize than look for an effective solution to a problem that 'may' exist.

As mentioned a multitude of times in this thread, shore power is the solution to the problem that may only exist if the wind doesn't blow.

But then again we're dealing with Victoria, the city that still dumps raw sewage into the ocean.

But it's not - please read other article on this subject

The only reason the ships stop here at all is legal - and, simply, because it's cheap.

As for trivializing, I don't think the health and well-being of the residents ARE tivial - do you?

And, if you'd actually read the posts here, you'd have seen that little matter of sewage has also been mentioned...I wonder by whom?

They 'may' well be...in this case.

All the more reason to quit going global by taking on all the problems associated with the cruise industry and stick with the matter at hand which is not unsolvable.

Now that's just petty, maybe even trivial petty.