The Hook

Free speech ? !

I'm glad to see that:
--protest and free speech are still alive and, well at least still alive.
--perhaps (although I kinda doubt it) games security will peacefully allow the voice of the common guy to be heard.
--the media is covering the protests and not being totally brainwashed by the 'once-in-a-lifetime' hoopla balderdash.

I'm sorry I had to miss the fun, but I'm glad others carried the flame for freedom of speech on my behalf. Thanks!!

you're wrong

DPL says: "The Victoria cops overreacted. Those citizens were dong nothing illegal as protest is still legal, even in Gordo, the red mitten boy's province."

I see this argument time and time again, and it is wrong. It is illegal to impede lawful traffic -- like cars, or buses, or torch carriers with a legal permit -- and all the protestors could have been issued tickets for by-law infractions. That, my friend, has nothing to do with the right to protest. They can protest 24/7 as long as they don't get in the way of someone exercising their legal rights. You want an analogy? You're right to swing your fist around wildly stops at my nose.

There were no arrests, no tickets issued, no violence. They re-routed the torch procession to avoid a confrontation. In doing so, I understand a few people who were in line to participate lost their chance to do that, and a lot of other people lost their chance to see it all. And you say the cops over-reacted? In what way?

I'm fed up with all the lefties who think the right to protest includes the right to mess up everyone else and get in their way. There is no right to do that.

Support the Flaming Doobie

I am sick to death of all the negative comments.

The torch is a beautiful rendition of a hastily rolled doobie, a wonderful
symbol of the BC experience. It's an amazing design - it even burns down one side like the real thing.

So when the torch comes to your town, don't protest - celebrate !

Spark up your own doobie as the torch passes. Join the party !

Show the world what inspires you and helps you dream Olympic dreams.

SUPPORT THE FLAMING DOOBIE !

Marbles

Throwing marbles out to disable horses is despicable. Doing such does not further their causes one bit. They are just a bunch of malcontents.

I don't know but I've been told

This fiasco is gonna burn "white hot".
Two choices of weather for the Olympics:
1)No snow
2)Too much snow

So herself just got home

She works weekends now and then for VIHA.
Running her usual route into: wait for it
"Olympic Torch Relay"
Halloween in Nanaimo

a beautiful thing

would be having a first rate health care, homes for everyone, food for everyone to eat once a day, a first class free education for all who want it, not games for those who fail to see the suffering it has and will cause. Not cut backs for mental health on vancouver island with futher cut backs to crisis lines that know the community they serve etc. Compliments of premier spite Heard him called that standing in a store line waiting for the cashier

This fiasco is gonna burn

This fiasco is gonna burn "white hot".
Two choices of weather for the Olympics:
1)No snow
2)Too much snow
========

I hope it snmows a couple inches here as the city will crawl to a stop and even the skytrain will probably stop running as it does so many times in snowy weather.

To bad we do not live in a real democracy where all people in the province could of voted on whether to have this party for the rich and elite.

The Olympics has not been about athletes for many many years, the IOC has a history of corruption and now it is just to rake in money from broadcasts and money for the local elite to profit while the rest of us are work for minimum wage or unemployed.

Some Protests Not Okay

Anyone with the mentality to intentionally risk injury to animals by throwing marbles under the feet of horses hasn't the intelligence to understand what they are protesting.

I too am livid at the blatant waste of taxpayer's money at the expense of anyone not fitting into an affluent lifestyle. But, the money is already spent and the olympics are happening. Now we have to try and salvage any benefit we can out of a bad situation.

Protest, but do it with a modicum of class and for heaven's sake don't let it result in yet more cost to the province.

Karen D

Governments shouldn't use the modern equivalent of "cossacks" against unarmed people.

If they do the people should arm themselves with passive weapons. If the horses aren't used against the people then the horses won't be hurt.

I'm happy to see people disrupting the Olympics. Me and a lot of other BCers aren't going to be attending any of the events but we're going to be paying for your 2 week party for a long time to come.

Blackie says :I see this

Blackie says :I see this argument time and time again, and it is wrong. It is illegal to impede lawful traffic -- like cars, or buses, or torch carriers with a legal permit -- and all the protestors could have been issued tickets for by-law infractions. That, my friend, has nothing to do with the right to protest. They can protest 24/7 as long as they don't get in the way of someone exercising their legal rights. You want an analogy? You're right to swing your fist around wildly stops at my nose.

What should they do then Blackie, stay within the confines of the allotted Free Speech zones? it's called Civil disobedience, it's people protesting and stepping outside the law in a way to show the injustice in certain segments of our society, Martin Luther King and Gandhi knew this, it's called Non-Violent Direct Action and I'm sure back when MLK was heading the civil rights movement and blocking traffic and sitting in and protesting injustices in his society, there were people like you there to moan about how much of a nuisance these people were.

So have a simple question for you, what should these protesters do to make their point in a way not to upset you. Should they funnel their concerns/anger through the ballet box? Should they put their eggs in the basket of gradualism and hope that the ruling party/government over time comes to their senses and changes their situation? Should they resort to violence and try and intimate the government/society into giving into their demands?. I'm just interested to know your view on it because anything other than non-violent direct action doesn't seem to bring about the necessary change in Liberal Democracies.

Civil Disobedience Doesn't include harming animals...

Throwing marbles with the intention to hurt or kill an animal is not an ethical form of protest. It wasn't a method used by Martin Luther King, and it CERTAINLY wasn't used by Gandhi.

These two men preached non-violent confrontation, followed by arrest to show the world the injustice of the laws they're fighting.

What happened last night in Victoria was a shameful insult to the proud history of REAL activism and REAL civil disobedience. And those in the crowd who don't condemn it, condone it.

OK Sockeye

"it's called Civil disobedience, it's people protesting and stepping outside the law in a way to show the injustice in certain segments of our society."

Brush up on what Gandhi's view on civil disobedience was, and see if you can find a way to apply it here that doesn't make the Olympic "civil disobedience" look a tad juvenile.

First, he was acting against an oppressive colonial regime that wouldn't get out of his country. Does the Olympics hit that standard of oppression?(remembering of course that it was approved in a referendum).

Second -- and this is one of the founding tenets of civil disobedience -- he and his followers were prepared to face the charges and go to jail. And indeed he did. Is there a willingness on the left to spend a few days in jail for this Olympic oppression? Strikes me that the common refrain (and not just from Olympics protestors I might add) is to fight any legal responsibility for their actions. Had he not been cremated, Gandhi would roll in his grave at the antics of the Olympic protestors, and the nobility of their cause.

"Should they funnel their concerns/anger through the ballet box?"

In a word, yes. That's how it's supposed to happen in a democratic society. If you can't muster enough support for the cause to turf out those hated politicians and replace them with someone else who agrees with you, then you don't have much of a cause. As I recall, the NDP also supported the Olympics -- that sounds like rock and hard place territory.

"I'm just interested to know your view on it because anything other than non-violent direct action doesn't seem to bring about the necessary change in Liberal Democracies."

Well, that points to the arrogance of the argument. You assume that everyone wants "necessary change." Who defines necessary? Again, if you can't muster public support at the ballot box for what you believe is "necessary change" then that means that the majority either don't agree with you, or they don't care. Judging by the turnout in the last election, "don't care" seems to be winning the day. That's unfortunate, although I am highly amused by the suggestion (from the left) that if the voter turnout hit 75% somehow Campbell would have been turfed. My guess is it would have been another landslide.

The Olympics is going to happen. The protests are not going to change that. They are also not going to win any converts to the cause -- if anything, they'll turn people in the other direction and do damage to the cause. Will they give us an international black eye? Maybe, but someone needs to explain to me why that would be a good thing, and what would change as a result of it. Nothing, I believe.

I didn't support the Olympics, by the way. I do support representative democracy though.

blackie

"remembering of course that it was approved in a referendum"

I don't recall Victoria having a referendum on the Olympics, perhaps you could tell me when that was? After all, the protests were on the Island.

"Gandhi would roll in his grave at the antics of the Olympic protestors, and the nobility of their cause."

Oh right, because Gandhi would instead have attended the gold medal hockey game on a corporate sponsored junket and shaken hands with the premier. Sure he would have.

"As I recall, the NDP also supported the Olympics -- that sounds like rock and hard place territory."

In other words the people were not given a political outlet and when that happens they find a new outlet.

"The Olympics is going to happen. The protests are not going to change that."

The protests are also going to happen.

"They are also not going to win any converts to the cause"

I somehow doubt that if protests didn't take place and everyone just smiled for the foreign media and did what we were told that we wouldn't win any "converts to the cause" either.

"Will they give us an international black eye?"

Most assuredly.

"Maybe, but someone needs to explain to me why that would be a good thing"

Why would we care what you think is a "good thing"? You're a Campbell supporter so we already know you think cutbacks are "good things".

"I didn't support the Olympics, by the way. I do support representative democracy though."

When the people aren't represented new avenues will be found.

If we had a democracy, we

If we had a democracy, we could vote against this kind of thing. But wait, we didn't GET to vote on this did we? Only the people in Vancouver got to vote, then the rest of us get to pay. We were lied to about the costs, lied to about the budget, lied to about just who was going to pay, lied to about just about everything have to do with these games. Hard to have a democracy when the kleptocracy in charge gets to do that sort of thing and get away with it.

Although I don't approve of all the actions of the protesters, it's really the only way to get the message out that the Olympics really is just as scam. Newspapers? Owned and operated by the same people who profit from public funding of a private venture. They're too busy hyping this thing to report accurately or fairly on it. Our government? They're too busy kicking back to large corporations to listen to anyone but themselves.

The only way for the negative aspects of the Olympics to be publicised is for protesters to break the law. So be it. Let's have more of that.

Someone put it quite concisely: $1 billion of taxpayer money to guarantee high profits for private corporations involved in this Olympic[tm] scam. $1 billion in cutbacks to health, education, welfare, and other services taxpayers actually paid for. Gee, I wonder where the money went?

Watch out Roger Federer!.....

An excellent series of return volleys, Frank.

Great stuff.

I was going to post, but I

I was going to post, but I think Frank's comebacks just settled it.

A lesson in Democracy...

So why didn't the protestors start a political party to oppose the Olympics? Why don't they now?

Because they'd lose an election because they have little support.

That's the way democracy works. And I think most people will choose that system over the protesters strange, dangerous, marble-throwing, horse-maiming system.

RightofAttilaTheHun

"So why didn't the protestors start a political party to oppose the Olympics?"

I think they should have too.

"Because they'd lose an election because they have little support."

Strange, the last poll I saw said only 9% of people in BC were "excited about the Olympics". I would say, considering that 52% of the population didn't support any party in the last election that an anti-Olympic party would have done extremely well.

"That's the way democracy works"

What is? What is the way democracy works? Did you leave something out of your post?

"And I think most people will choose that system"

What system?

"over the protesters strange, dangerous, marble-throwing, horse-maiming system."

How many horses have been maimed? 1,000? 100? 10? 1? I'm sorry Agent 86 but you're exaggerating again.

Blue pill referendum

People keep claiming this bogus "referendum" held in Vancouver settles the question of whether the Olympics should be held because "Vancouver voted for it".

They may have, but it wasn't a referendum, which is binding, or an election question, but a plebiscite, which is non-binding, and Larry Campbell even said so. When Charlie Smith (Georgia Straight) held his feet to the fire, he even said once in an unguarded moment that he would ignore an unfavourable vote in the plebiscite because "this is good for Vancouver".

Well, it was good for his career, but it wasn't good for Vancouver, which is facing a massive tax-sale and loss when the real-estate downturn hits the market next June as rising interest rates destroy the credit market and collapse the current real estate bubble, leaving Vancouver taxpayers to make up the shortfall on the Owelympic Village sales.

That plebiscite was conducted in a highly improper fashion, with the Mayor's staffers (supposedly impartial) and individuals in the City Clerk's office (definitely impartial, but answerable to Boss Hogg) working on the process to manufacture consent by producing advertising copy, backgrounders and briefings on Olympics without a serious examination of both sides of the question. The local paid media, columnists and open-mouth hosts included, did its usual hatchet job as it manufactured consent by showing images of happy winners and more advertising bumph without any examination of the costs or problems associated with other Olympics games in other cities, and characterizing opponents as evil nay-sayers without any examination whatsoever of the issues raised. Typical ad hominem exercise so contrary to good journalism as it might be taught in journalism school, were there anyone with any ethics to teach it.

This was no vote, it was an exercise in corporate authoritarianism worthy of a Soviet May Day parade. Nobody should ever refer to it again, except as a bad example. And kudos to the 35% of the population of Vancouver who voted against it despite unyielding pressure exerted by the Mr Smiths of the bid crew to force a blue pill down their throats.

lie back & enjoy it?

Since I am by nature a non-confrontational person, I was tempted to buy the argument that "the Olympics are going to happen, and protesting won't change that, so we might as well make the best of it".

But then I realized that sounds an awful lot like saying: "You're going to get scr*wed anyway, so you might as well lie back & enjoy it..."

And that's just not right.

"A large group of anti-Games protesters "

says the first sentence in this article.
How large? 2-300 according to news reports, Tyee included. Out of a province of 4 million.
Wow. The Revolution has begun.
Tielman and Vander Zalm managed about 10 times that for an anti-tax rally.
Nothing more need be said really. Nobody takes a small mob wearing ski masks seriously.
Almost nobody...

People not to take seriously

The 9% of BCers that are enthusiastic about the Olympics.

And the other 91%? Those would be the ones paying the bills but not getting free tickets.

Less than 9%?

Hmm, and yet far less than 9% showed up for the torch run. You'd think if they are as enthusiastic as they claim, and since it was a weekend anyway, that more would have showed up to show their support.

I guess they had better things to do.

OK Frank

Please supply figures/sources that show the number of spectators that have turned out for the run in the first 3 days then, seeing as how you claim to know.

happy

I haven't seen a single visual report with 400,000 people in it.

If you have a link to one on YouTube, send it along but otherwise I'll continue to believe the mere 400,000 BCers that are "enthusiastic" aren't enthusiastic enough to show up. On a weekend.

In fact

I would have to say looking at the pictures that less than 1% of the province can be seen.

How pathetic.

I stand corrected

Your right Frank, 400,000 souls didn't turn out between Victoria and Campbell River in the first 3 days of the 4 month Run that ends in February.
Therefore you must be right. I bow to your "logic"

happy

Thank you, I based it on your logic of equating 200 protesters versus a population of 4 million.

For those keeping score...

Port Alberni: 2500 Anti-Olympians: 0

http://www.alberniportal.ca/modules/AMS/article.php?storyid=246

Same with Cowichan, Tofino & Nanaimo...lots of people, zero protesters.

leftofcentre

You're not going to count friends and families of the bearers are you? Or kids in school who have to be there?

Regardless if you do, as happy would tell you... 2,500 out of 4 million people?

In the Vancouver Sun on Saturday there was a story about a guy who brought his daughter to the torch run even though he's against the Olympics because he wanted his daughter to enjoy the thing.

Unlike happy's, that logic makes sense to me. One can be against the thing while still wanting to support people for whom running with the torch is a big moment for them.

After all, that's the point of the run. To market the Olympics and few of us can resist the pull on the heartstrings of sick kids smiling and running with the Olympic torch. Okay, Liberals are immune to the needs of kids, but the other 75% of us aren't.

That being said the funding for those kids' care, hospitals, extra learning help and sports activities has been cut by the same people trying to sell this thing so its pretty easy to call them hypocrites.

sad supporters don't get it

From yesterday's Globe & Mail, Rod Mickelburgh in Port Alberni:

"Nearby, Theresa Franks, whose 13-year old son, Bryon, also carried the torch, said times are tough in town. Her husband, after 20 years at his sawmill, has had only three weeks work all year.

Yet the day was still special, Ms. Franks said. "This event is pretty big. At least for a while, it gets your mind off the mundane and the bills piling up at home."

Some people just don't see the connections ...

By the way, we protested in the Comox Valley - ratio of thumbs up for us vs. thumbs down : 4:1 .

"The police overreacted"

I was there as a Legal Observer and I noticed nothing to suggest this was the case.

Points made above by blackie are sound. The protesters did not have a permit for their march through Victoria's streets, they tied traffic at rush hour on a Friday in the busiest part of downtown Victoria for nearly an hour.

I have to give credit to Victoria motorists and transit riders, the vast majority of whom tolerated the delays and detours without honking their horns in anger or shouting. Great patience showed by them.

The police's highly visible yet soft approach to dealing with the protesters spared Victoria, Canada and the IOC a potentially embarrassing occurrence that would have made worldwide headline news. It was good to see a relaxed policy toward the fact the protesters did not possess a permit for the march and took a gentle apporach to their interference with the right of other Canadians to express themselves by relaying a torch through their city. The focus was on the outcome of the whole event, as opposed to clamping down hard on all aspects of the law and this approach was crucial in avoiding a public relations nightmare for all Olympic supporters.,

The protesters were wise to refrain from disrupting the morning Arrival Ceremony on the legislature grounds. It went off peacefully and I think their staying away from that event made a difference in how the day unfolded.

The Legal Observer summary may be found here:

http://2010legalobserver.wordpress.com/2009/11/02/legal-observers-in-victoria

Finally, I have to say I am so proud that we Canadians are showing the world how a democracy is capable of operating when intelligence, flexibility and tact are present. Under the United Kingdom's Counter-terrorism Act, it would be illegal for me to have taken all of the photos I did of the police officers that day.

Let's continue to show the world that freedom can be experienced with responsibility.

Marbles

I heard a very careful and complete report from a professional photographer who covered the protest march in Victoria.

He was there - the rest of us weren't.

He claimed no marbles were thrown at anyone, no rocks either....

more completely

He also said no marbles or rocks were thrown at or near any of the horses...

yet more completely....

...is anyone from Canvas Goebbels rags reading this? Are there any red faces or fired employees yet.

Huh. Didn't think so.

By the way, I hear their website was down a whole lot today - not paying their bills catching up to them? Can't you just imagine a world without the Notional Pest? What a bright sunny day that will be. Kind of like watching Faux News disappear into the eye of a hurricane....

G West ...

Some ten Legal Observers were present for the march. We walked in front of, behind, to the side and amidst all the marchers and police the whole way and took loads of photos and scribbled down notes of anything unusual we saw and none of us noticed any marbles being thrown or already thrown onto the road. You can bet if they were, we would have seen a photo or two of them in the news by now. I believe the report about protesters tossing marbles to hinder horses ridden by police was nothing more than a rumour as there was no physical evidence this occurred.