She'll be gone soon

Just remember and a new dynamic leader will emerge to kick Campbell liberal butt. Then the public will have their attention.

What democracy?

Jenny has rejected the democratically expressed opinion of the Party through Provincial Council. She is determined to have her way no matter what the cost, including putting at risk the opportunity to win the election and have a government for all British Columbians. Shame.

Wiki

WikiNdpLeaks

Jenny Kwan

I've been waiting for this to happen.
When Carole James admonished that criticizing the
Liberal's outrageous record is not enough I wondered just how far up
the creek she was. When Jim Sinclair handed her a paddle,
I realized what the name of that creek was.

Persistent and consistent criticism of this government
is as essential as providing a positive alternative. What we've had of the latter is tepid, and of the former almost
non-existent. I had been hoping (just hoping) that after
Ms. James' recent leadership troubles she would step up
to the plate. Jenny Kwan's statement today obviously
disappoints that hope, but I have to admit I agree with
her.

The endorsement by Party council left me flat. I have
tremendous respect for the veteran Ms. Kwan and believe it's true: you hear the frustration at the doorstep of ordinary British Columbians. A one-member-one vote review would inspire me (finally)
to rejoin the Party and contribute; and I know (really
know of) a lot of others who feel the same way.

Ms. James' platform roll-out seemed to acknowledge
the need for a more vocal criticism of the Liberals, but only
reluctantly and conditionally. I'll be waiting to see what
happens next.

P. Markunas - You would be better...

...served by changing your tune from telling those of us who oppose Carole James' leadership to shut up and fall into line, to making a case for why she's the best leader.

As to the Provincial Council vote, what a joke. I never recall the vast majority of the constituencies actually asking their members what they thought about the motion. Mine didn't.

If Carole has the support of the party, like you people claim that she does, she will call a leadership vote, beat her critics and prove once and for all that she has the confidence of the party. Just saying she has the confidence of the party doesn't make it so.

David C.

Constituency associations did meet prior to the Provincial Council - hence the many resolutions brought to the floor. I went to the meeting in my constituency. That's how democracy works.

Exactly Why Does Carole James Stay On?

I keep running into that question. What exactly is she waiting for. I agree with Jenny Kwan it's time for a change. Sadly though under the current regime Jenny will most likely be an independent. I agree with other posters here that Carole James needs to settle this once and for all and the only way is via a leadership race. If the NDP want the donations to go up, they as a party had better shape up. NDP voters are still alive and well here in BC, we are just a little disgruntled under the current Campbell administration. No matter if the BC NDP want to return to power they'll replace Ms James eventually. I think that the party brass are already all over it, so to speak. Change can after all be a good thing and I do respect Ms James for many things and I respect her work but that is not enough for anyone to win an election.

"She is determined to have

"She is determined to have her way no matter what the cost, including putting at risk the opportunity to win the election and have a government for all British Columbians. Shame."

Accusing Jenny Kwan of being self serving is about as stupid and ignorant as it gets. It is apparent the Stalinists in the NDP are prepared to take down the party with them by assassinating the character of each and every critic until no NDP member has any credibility!

Carole James' pathetic leadership and refusal to read the writing on the wall is what really puts the party at risk. The voters are telling anyone who will listen that she will not do, but the SEIC is so blinded by the lust for power and position that they are unable to accept the truth.

If the Lieberals rise in the polls with the "new" leader will these sycophants then call for James to step down? Apparently they see a mid term lead in the polls as a sure election victory in 2013 - if the Libs surge ahead in some Mustel poll will they then admit James must go?

It is one thing to dismiss a single critic like Bob Simpson as a flake, but Jenny Kwan is known all around BC as one of those who held the NDP together long enough for James to take over. She has obviously given this great thought and gone through much agonizing before finally speaking out.

Jenny's detailed and alarming analysis of James' emulation of Campbell and Harper in her dictatorial leadership has far more credibility with the public than the hysterical ravings of the Carolers - P Markunas, you are the one should be ashamed!

I nominate Jenny Kwan!

Jenny hit the nailon the head with this statement:
"Whenever a challenging policy decision arises, often the default position is to avoid taking a stand."

Go away James, and take Moe with you!

New Arguments?

The arguments Jenny advances were made prior to the Provincial Council vote as well. She has not added to the debate, she is merely circumventing the democratic processes of the Party.

To P. Markunas

You can wait until the polling shows a neck and neck race between the NDP and the hated liberals under some new package of "now we will listen". Unfortunately then you won't have the momentum. Or you can deal with the elephant in the room now, have a leadership contest after the liberals have chosen their leader and regain the momentum with a new an invigorated membership. Unfortunately the same people who supported Dosanjh and engaged in ethnic politics above all else, now want to play the gender card. What is more important making history with the first elected women Premier or forming a people's government? If they were one and the same it would make sense but they aren't!

Have your own poll done and ask which of the major caucus members would make the best leader. You may be surprised.

Title should read "Jenny Kwan is dividing the party"

This isn’t just a betrayal of Carole – sickening as that is in itself – it’s a betrayal of the party.

Jenny Kwan and the Bob Simpson gang are all drinking the Koolaid and destroying the party in the process.

I’ve been involved with the NDP for 30 years, and never have I been so ashamed or so disgusted by the people we’ve worked so hard to elect.

And Jenny did not even have the decency or the courage to stand up in front of the media to answer questions and explain her actions.

Instead, she plays the victim at the same time as she engages in personal attacks. She doesn’t have an ounce of the integrity that Carole James has. And today, she’s destroyed her own reputation for good.

Shame. Complete shame.

liberal sympathizers

Liberal sympathizers sound like they are running scared. Go Jenny, go!

A Bloodbath In the Making

Grab your popcorn folks, the entertainment is about to begin:

"Jenny Kwan is playing chicken with the leader, and is hoping that she gets kicked out so that the entire party will revolt."

"There are more waiting to make a string of announcements that are similar to Kwan’s, and instead of coming out as a group as I was first informed, they are going to stagger this process so that the bleeding never ends in the media and in the public for James."

What a mess this is turning into…I have to say that the BC Liberals have all the momentum right now, precisely because of this shortsighted and selfish politicking."

http://civicscene.ca/bc-ndp-dissidents-to-make-major-announcement-in-the-next-hour

Jenny should resign...

...from caucus and take the other dissidents with her. It's the best way of declaring non-confidence in the leader and provides the most leverage if the Legislature ever sits again.

I'm thinking of something like the 'Democratic Representatives Caucus' or whatever it was certain Reformers called themselves when they pulled the rug out from under 6000-year-old-dinosaur guy.

As its currently constituted, the NDP is a dead horse. Anything's better than the current situation.

Queen of DeNile

I too am an old NDP supporter (36yrs) and stopped giving to the party after Carole's 2nd loss. She seems like a lovely lady but nice is nice. That's it. It doesn't win an election. I think various posters have said similar in other articles about Carole James.

As an HEU member who lived to tell of the effects of Bill 29, I'm scared stiff that the NDP will lose this election.

Jenny Kwan and Joy McPhail - two amazing warriors - did their utmost to speak out for so many in the province for so long. It amazes me how, after reading this article, anyone would have the audacity to question Kwan's "decency" or "courage" let alone call into question her integrity.

Yes, "ferncrest", it's a complete shame. A shame on you.

Quotes without credits?

Hey Cool Hand, more copy and paste or should that be more "quotes from yourself". How ever do you do that?

The party membership has

The party membership has ultimate authority. If James has the support of 84% of the NDP membership as some have claimed then a 1 member 1 vote leadership convention would result in an overwhelming mandate even her detractors would have to acknowledge.

Surely the Carolers would wish to see such an unchallengeable decision be made by the party in light of the ongoing media spotlight on the party's disarray.

Provincial council has historically been much more willing to toe the party line as decreed by the inner circle and to work to temper the democratic urges of the membership when expected to do so. A victory there is hardly a resounding vote of confidence from the party much less the public.

It has reached the point where even were James a great leader whose qualities are simply underrated and unrecognized by a fickle public and traitorous MLAs, most people don't see it that way. For the sake of her own credibility and that of the NDP she needs to renew her mandate party wide and as soon as possible.

This will not weaken, but

This will not weaken, but strengthen the NDP, as a democratic organization.

Party loyalty is not loyalty demanded to serve the whims of individuals.

The signs of discontent within the party have been growing for a long time and this was the best time to bring them out into the open, ready to face the most corrupt government in my 54 years experience as a BC voter.

Had this happened after another Lib. victory, entrenching them to sell BC off for another 4 years, it would have been too late, but now the real fight for BC can begin, with all the dirty deals coming out into the open.

I think, Jenny can wipe Christy Clark off the map. Wouldn't be surprised to see her back off from the contest.

Ed Deak. .

Power Hungry Backstabber, much?

How typical!

When the NDP is in the doldrums with only 2 MLAs and barely double digit support, everyone pretended to support Carole because nobody wanted the thankless and hard job of rebuilding a dead party.

But now that the party is poised for power with a 25% lead over the Liberals, suddenly the Long Knives come out and all of the power-hungry backstabbers who didnt want the job in 2003 and now gunning for it? Power hungry, much?

I am disgusted by the actions of these traitors. The only reason to stab Carole James in the back at this particular time is to expose your own leadership ambitions. Otherwise, what's the point? The NDP are poised to win the next election, so why rock the boat?

I'm disgusted by Kwan and her allies.

I have always liked Jenny

I have always liked Jenny Kwan. I wish she was leader. I met her once at the May Day Parade and left with a very good impression of her.

Carole James whether if she is in the right or not is irrelevant now as she is divisive and tearing the party apart. Something has to be done. Jenny Kwan is a long term MLA and her words should be heeded...I actually think she would be a great replacement for Layton when he decides to retire.

Sad story. All political

Sad story. All political parties are increasingly submitting themselves to dictatorial leaders. What ever happened to the idea of "first among equals?" To the idea of working thru ideas and policies and arriving at agreement on policies, and then pushing them? To the idea of mutual respect among folks who might not agree with each other on every point?

James's main failing (as it appears to this long time NDPer who is informed by what he reads in the papers but is not plugged into the party infighting) has been her constant effort to "listen" to others (including many who will never support the NDP's relatively egalitarian vision) -- and not to engage the party in defining strong POLICIES to set things right.

Kwan's memo suggests that she doesn't even "listen" to caucus -- or lacks the skill to secure, if not consensus, at least agreement on a course of action -- and then fails to follow through even on points that are agreed. Given her record in the NDP, I don't think Kwan is making things up.

Oh, my.

But is a leadership race the right medicine? Or would it result in more bloodletting and the election of another "leader" of a party full of injured losers, and repetition of many of the same mistakes?

Is there any chance at all that the caucus members can take a deep breath, can sit down like adults, and actively explore whether they can map out a less destructive course of action? (If they can engage the others fomenting this, such as the other Bill in the leadership of Bill Vander Zalm's anti-HST/antiLiberal crusade, so much the better.)

Given Carole's social work background, surely she understands that one person isn't always right, and that focused discussion can sometimes yield better results than blowing everything up and starting over -- even if that means everyone swallowing some pride in the interest of moving ahead?

Can old dogs learn new tricks?

Hope so, but I'm not holding my breath.

Live denial if you like

Ok read all the comments; I stated it last week and now I’ll state it again. The NDP can have 84% support for Carole; they can have a leadership convention and get 100% support….

Hey I will even vote for her too, and I have never voted NDP. So there you have one more 101%....

The NDP can have what it likes. The voting public of BC will decide if Carole is to be the queen of the hop.

Further, the voting public has already spoken not ONCE but TWICE in 10 years; Carole does not make it with the BC voter. Wake up here…..

And we all collectively laugh at the Liberals because they now say that they are “listening” in another news story here.

Campbell Rebuilt the NDP

Oh please, if Taylor ran for premier, she'd win over James right off the bat. Hands down. The media would make damn good and sure of it.

Unfortunately, it was Campbell who gets most credit for rebuilding the NDP. One can only speculate how different the Opposition support could/would have been had Carole not been at the helm.

Carole Should Think Carefully

This is a real test of her leadership (whatever abilities she might have that way). She has to carefully consider her action based on what is best for the people in BC and the best for the party's future, not what is best for her. I don't know all the options she might be considering, but I think she should think very carefully about this challenge and how best to deal with all the rampant (or lingering) concerns for her leadership of the NDP.

Carole, No One to Blame but Yourself

Carole James and Moe Sihota are ruining the NDP, and they have no one to blame but themselves.

I strongly support Jenny, Katrine, Bob and the rest of the dissident '13'. Its about time somebody actually said out loud what many of us have suspected all a long.

Carole, you're an ineffectual leader and developing a Campbell leadership style shows your afraid to face your NDP members, 'cause you have no substance.

Carole, if you actually gave a damn about the party, you'd hold a leadership convention now and put an end to the destruction of our party.

Try thinking of the greater good of the people of BC for once before your own unrealistic dreams.

Well said, kootenay.

Well said, kootenay.

There is NO reason for Carole to resign or hold a vote

kootenay, if every party leader of a political party resigned because a few people "tell them to", it would make a mockery of the process and it would make the leader look weak.

The party has a leadership process and a leadership review process.

Why should she resign just because a few MLA's don't like her style? Carole James was elected leader and until the next official leadership review, doesnt need to resign.

Can you imagine if every party leader held a leadership convention every single time someone criticized them???

The Liberals are laughing right now. Even if Carole has a style some people oppose, I have yet to hear a good reason why she should resign, either from a Party Constitution point of view, or from a Political Strategy point of view.

I hope she shows her strength and fights the Power Hungry Backstabbers.

I too am an old NDP

I too am an old NDP supporter (36yrs) and stopped giving to the party after Carole's 2nd loss.
=========

Same with me and will spoil my ballot first before I vote NDP under this current leadership of the Carole and Moe show...

But now that the party is poised for power with a 25% lead over the Liberals,
=========

Uhm no. It is not Carole but the liberals being so bad and that will change with a new leader. If Carole was so great why are the NDP marginally higher than they were last election? Logic would dictate they should be closing in on 70% support, yet that support the Liberals lost seems to be going to Greens and Cons and not NDP....

If Carole is forced out, I will quit my membership

Logic would dictate they should be closing in on 70% support

Are you kidding? When in the history of BC politics has one party ever been so high in the polls. No matter how bad the Liberals are, enough British Columbians are on the Right/Centre-Right of the spectrum that they would never support the NDP. That's just foolish talk. That would never happen no matter what.

If we are leading the Libs by 25% in the polls, we are headed for a majority government, so why do this now????

I have been a party member for 15 years but if Carole gets kicked out in this viscious, Night of the Long Knives manner I will NOT vote for the party and I will quit my membership. I don't want to be in a party that does this kind of thing to its leader.

Again, nobody is providing a good reasons why:

1. Prove, why, according to the party constitution, she should have to resign.

2. Prove, why, it makes sense to go through this infighting while the Liberals are doing so badly.

Jenny has been a loyal

Jenny has been a loyal worker for the party since well before James came along.Jenny and Joy kept the party alive, working out of a large closet with the food vent outside their window. Gordo did his best to get rid of them , limited staff and lots of insults, but those two soldiered on.Jenny did long hours in the house while very pregnant so nobody should suggest she is a threat to the party. If Jenny says it's time for a leadership vote, well I'm with Jenny.

Her troops are deserting

"Why should she resign just because a few MLA's don't like her style?"
This does not seem like "a few MLA's".
Jenny asks for "one member one vote"
You got a problem with that?

Jenny is not God, just a party member

So, let's throw the party constitution out the window? As long as Jenny says let's hold a leadership vote, we do it? Jenny Kwan is just 1 party member out of thousands.

I don't care how hard Jenny had it after Glen Clark and Ujjal Dosanjh destroyed the party, the party constitution and party leadership has to be respected.

You people wanted Carole to do the dirty work of rebuidling the party that Glen Clark and his cronies (such as Harry Lali) destroyed and now you want to toss her aside?

alcm

BC Liberals, in a Mustel poll, early 2001 - 72% - 18% for the NDP.

It's actually 20% with ARS and 5% with Mustel. With the party imploding in front of the public, probably guaranteed that the lead is vanishing.

A new leader won't help either. It's too late. Tom Berger, Bob Skelly as "new" leaders are prime examples without the baggage of party implosion.

From the G & B:"Whichever way this ends up breaking, the NDP is a deeply, deeply divided party right now. Its very survival as a relevant political institution is at stake."

@DPL...loyal?...doesn't much sound that way

Did you miss that letter from past MLAs - including Joy McPhail?

You know the one that pledged solid support for the current leader.

I'm not going to bad mouth Jenny Kwan - especially because I think she's being badly advised by someone - but, I think I can say without fear of contradiction that Joy McPhail was the senior operating partner of the team that kept the party in the game after 2001.

I put a little more stock in her verdict relative to Ms James than I'm ready to invest in supporting what seems to me to be a pretty rambling and not terribly well thought out stream of consciousness.

In the end though, these are strange times indeed when the nominal and traditional defenders of the interests of the people the government of this province have ignored for nearly 10 years can't get their act together in the face of the best opportunity to turf the real VILLAINS 'whenever' the next election comes around.

I know this is ‘politics’ but it’s also ridiculous.

Aw Lukie

I wouldn't have thought you'd use 'that' quote from Gary Mason - Seems to me a cut and paste of the last sentence in his article would have suited your character much more closely: "As things stand, the Liberals could have Environment Minister Barry Penner’s cat, Ranger – being touted on Facebook as a candidate – leading them into the next election and likely win hands down."

Maybe you'd like to rethink, eh?

The NDP has survived worse and it'll survive this fuck-up too.

You know why?

Because the other alternative - the one that's offered by YOUR side in this little dust up - is always worse....no matter how bad things get for progressives, they'll always be head and shoulders over the people who you believe in.

My wife and I had a very

My wife and I had a very good meeting with Carole in July and came away in full support and full of hope for things to change for the better.

It didn't take very long to realize that she didn't mean a single word she told us. This was the second time for us, the first one in 06, with the same result, and I can just imagine what the MLAs had to put up with for years .

The Sihota secret salary, not even the MLAs knew about, was the last straw.

Bob Simpson had our full support and now so is Jenny and the rest of the 13, with letters of support from us.

There's absolutely no problem with the questioning of the leader in any volunteer organization, because the leader must be accountable at all times.

We haven't seen any sign of any accountability from CJ, although she has been given all the chances.

Ed Deak.

Who Owns Carole James?

It makes me wonder, given what a pathetic leader Carole James is, that the same bunch of blue suits who bought & paid for Gordo Campbell (and told him it is time to resign now), also OWN Carole James and the NDP Party SS. A tactic used very successfully in the last US elections. Buy the opposition, get them to run WhackJobs, Religious NutBalls or Lunatics against their Chosen Puppet. Offer the public a choice: the frying pan or the fire.

What "Party Constitution"?

Yes please, throw it out.
I do not know it nor do many voters in this province.
To me what matters is:
The NDP is in tatters and the goofy "Liberals" are imagining a comeback with the likes of de Jong and Falcon.
B.C. needs a change of government. I'm happy to vote against the current bunch - just not convinced Carol James should run the next local

PAB...

[OFFENSIVE COMMENT REMOVED. -MODERATOR.]

Glen Clark cronies like Moe, Ken, Joy and Jack

"You people wanted Carole to do the dirty work of rebuidling the party that Glen Clark and his cronies (such as Harry Lali) destroyed and now you want to toss her aside?"

Glen Clark cronies Moe Sihota, Joy MacPhail, Ken Georgetti, Jack Munro, and most of Clark's cabinet were equally arrogant and out of touch in the 90s as Sihota and James now are. The result was a 2-77 disaster. This came after years when activists who questioned the direction of the government in even the tiniest way were seen as heretics and traitors and bullied into submission or despair.

Even purely strategic suggestions were ignored, as they now are being, as power went to people's heads and they lost the ability to listen to and respect the "peons".

Many of us said "Peon you then" and sat out the 2001 debacle.

One of James' weaknesses is her lack of support and understanding of environmental issues; this is magnified by Sihota's industrialist bias. Many activists still work for, and green leaning voters support, the NDP as the only viable electable alternative.
If the remaining environmental activists left the NDP for the Green party and united the environmental vote we would see a surprising result - none of the MSM understand this but the splitting of the green vote has also helped keep many young voters from getting involved.

Go Christy Clark!!

"doggone: throw it out (the party constitution)"

"Tommy Gunn: All retracters and Carole James supporters can fuck-off."

These attitudes says it all about the type of people engaging in this betrayal. Imagine if you treated YOUR boss or workplace that way -youd be fired.

The Liberals would LOVE to see the NDP led by someone who sat at the cabinet table with Glen Clark. They would much prefer that to Carole James.

So yeah maybe Harry Lali or Mike Farnworth or Jenny Kwan or another 1990s cabinet minister would be a better choice than Carole James. NOT.

The "Activist" wing of the party IS the problem!

"This came after years when activists who questioned the direction of the government in even the tiniest way were seen as heretics and traitors and bullied into submission or despair."

I disagree. The problem with the NDP is that every time a leader even HINTS at reaching out to business or moving to the center, the left wing-activist-Socialist Caucus-Young NDP wing of the party screams Betrayal and Sellout!

It happened to Alexa McDonough when the left wing of the party spread rumors that she wants to do a Tony Blair and move the party to the center (Third Way, etc).

Lets face it. The far left activist wing of the party throw a fit any time a leader even tries to move to the center, and THAT is what this is about.

to be fair

there are more than "just a few" NDPers who are
disaffected by Ms. James' leadership, as suggested above.

It is unfair and false to characterize dissenters as either rogue individuals or power hungry factions drawing out
"long knives." The real dissent is broad and accumulated
ever since Ms. James' leadership began, only getting
louder with each successive electoral defeat and now
with the disgrace of the Liberals. The criticism has been
consistent. Ms. James' "I'll show Bob Simpson who's Boss"
tactic underscored her unwillingness to rigorously
attack Liberal corruption and lies. Only made things
worse. Repeating the tactic with yellow scarves was
ill thought out. Party Council seemed not to hear the
cry of voters and 40% of caucus? "Who's the Boss"
looked like it was more important than relentlessly
pursuing the Liberal culprits who daily and blatantly
pervert justice and subvert the public weal.

Carole James has risked a lot by standing on a
principle (of offering only "positive alternatives") that
now seems merely stubborn and which could be
fixed (like critics in her party have been saying for years) without substantially compromising her other-
wise worthy policies.

To be fair, Jenny Kwan has not demanded James'
resignation, as suggested above. Rather she has invited
her to contend the leadership. I hope she does.

Stewart MacKenzie

Why am I not surprised you're one of those that abandoned the party in 2001 and cheered Campbell's coronation?

I showed up and voted NDP.

Lots of fair-weather friends like yourself around here though.

To put it bluntly, I don't want you to vote NDP because if you vote for the party it means we're doing something wrong.

Much as I despise the faux liberal

Something also bothers me about posts by ALCM and FRANC.
If these people are such staunch NDP supporters--------
Count me out.
Green it is
or?

doggone

You counted yourself out long ago.

A party of "intellectuals" led by Jenny would be hilarious.

Image counts...

While James may be a good person and capable politician, the public does not appear to warm to her image.

In a perfect world, people would be inspired to vote. It isn't going to happen with the current leadership. And I would like to be wrong.

And Frank, your attack on Stewart MacKenzie is uncalled for.

Please take a break from posting for a few days so you may reflect on your stance. This isn't about winning or losing a debate with other posters, it is about discussing a problem within the NDP.

Moat

Stewart has no problem name-calling anyone who disagrees with him on anything.

If he can't take what he dishes out, and I bet he can't, then he should grow up.

Go back and read his first post if you're worried about our little Stewart's fragile ego.

I think

I think most of you are missing the bigger picture here.

If what Jenny Kwan and Bill Bennett have stated is true, then the real problem lies with political parties and party politics. Bennett stated that Campbell was a one-man show and Kwan states much the same about Carole James. As elections go now, we may as well eliminate the facade that we are electing a representative and admit that we are electing a bobblehead who will vote as they are told, speak the words provided to them by their leader and basically appear at photo-ops to smile for the camera when summoned. Hell, we may as well just have the leaders run at large and whomever gets the most votes gets to be the dictator and the second place finisher can be his or her foil. No need for the other 83 MLAs, which would actually save the taxpayer money.

Even more scary is the fact that we don't really know if the leader of the party is making all the decisions, or if they are just carrying out the marching orders of those in the backrooms, who are not elected by the voter, and the money men they represent, who are also not elected by the voter.

What I'm really saying is, who are we really voting for? A person, a leader, a party or a group of shadows.

Frank, it is not really the name calling....

Frank, it is not really the name calling that is the issue, it is you hoping that he will not be voting for the party that YOU support.

Are not elections won by counting up the votes? Does not every vote count?

It appears that you do not recognize how the public views Ms. James.

Moat

Stewart and I disagree on everything, he said so himself, so why would I want us to support the same party? Kevin Falcon and I disagree on everything and you don't see us supporting the same party.

Every vote does count, and I think the leader that has given the party 2 of its 3 best electoral turnouts in history should be supported. CJ is trying to gain the support of people who don't normally vote NDP. She's trying to grow the party not circle the wagons. Over the long term I think her strategy is the right one.

Some say that no one likes James so we should get rid of her. All well and good, but her electoral success undermines their reasoning.

We've had firebrand left-wing leaders before and their vote count has been less than that of James. I therefore would expect a Jenny Kwan led party to do worse. Even when we only had two MLAs she was clearly the junior partner.

Selecting a leader because he or she appeals to your base is not what a party that wants to win elections does.

no confidence

Carole James lost my confidence as a result of her summary expulsion of Bob Simpson. A leader should be able to tolerate criticism from a colleague. Carole seems to have over-reacted and unleashed her inner autocrat. I would expect that from Gordon Campbell.

G West

"I'm not going to bad mouth Jenny Kwan - especially because I think she's being badly advised by someone - "

Whoever that is seems to speak for a huge section of the party and a majority of posters here.

reality not liked?

What a lot of NDP people seem to intentionally be missing here is that the voting public of BC wants a centrist government. Voters are weary of the left/right bullshit at the moment; voters are looking for moderation to the extremist nonsense that has been going on for years…..maybe not from the NDP but voters are tired of this quarrel right now; they want to see EFFECTIVE CHANGE.

And this, unfortunately for many here, does not come with the left/right vision any longer or for the moment.

So Kwan takes the lucky 13 with her; Simpson goes too, and they come up the middle of the political spectrum in this province.

The first group of political people that realizes this and mobilizes to reach these voters who are “wait and see” will win the next election.

Do your own poll by yourself. Turn and ask someone in the line up for a coffee; or at the grocery store; in the library; anywhere you like: “if she was not head of the NDP party would you vote for Carole James to be premier? I can’t find anyone who would.

I am sure many can find error in what I post here. The ones who do however are the ones who refuse to see that with Carole James as leader of the Opposition simply will not translate into votes. Plain and simple fact of life. Get over it and soon, before the Holidays are upon us or it will be too late.

Musing

The problem is that Kwan is on the left of the NDP. She's not centrist.

And another one of these MLA's has called for a law setting a limit on how much individuals can earn. Now that's as left wing as one can get.

And Bob Simpson himself has stated that they cannot form another party together because their vision and ideas are too divergent. Read: too far across the political spectrum to the left.

Only a handful could be described as centrists. The rest go quite far to the left. A proverbial rogue gallery.

But a new political party comprised of centrists and a populist leader would sweep BC right now with the political vacuum that exists. The NDP is finished and we'll have to see where the Libs go.

Regardless of anything else...

It seems like Carole and her people have spent much more time and energy defending Carole's leadership than speaking out on behalf on British Columbians after Lieberal scandal after scandal.

Moat: Thanks for the support

Moat: Thanks for the support - Frank and I have had a thing going for weeks now as I've tried to encourage him to be factual which is a chore for him at times.

"Stewart has no problem name-calling anyone who disagrees with him on anything."

Actually I have a special place in my heart for bullies and their apologists and will go after them the same way they have gone after Simpson, Kwan and others. These people have gone over the line and are fair game! Otherwise I'm a pretty mild fellow.

Frank: Sorry, you will need to find a new party - as I have said here before, I have always voted NDP and have worked hard for the party in many elections - canvassing, writing letters, going to all candidates meetings, calling open lines(if you think I give Carole a rough time you should have seen how I ragged our local Socreds), putting up signs, scrutineering, etc.

The '01 election was a lost cause thanks to the geniuses in the NDP who handed Campbell the victory - we did not participate in the campaign but we still voted NDP. Since then we have been working during elections but haven't signed on as members - that way we avoid the incessant pleas for money which have driven many from the party!

Recently I've turned my venom on regional rednecks and racists who have promoted hatred against the Tsilqot'in and First Nations generally, and the minions of Taseko mines they were serving - they don't like it much either!.
The NDP's waffling and evasions on the Prosperity Mine issue has been one more reason to question the party's direction under the present leadership! I never heard a single word from James til after the proposal was turned down.

I have been a small business operator and understand how the NDP's hostility to any kind of business has been an obstacle to progress. However, anyone who thinks big business will ever be NDP friendly is living in a dream world. Why would they support any party but the one they own lock stock and barrel - whatever name it goes by at the time?

The Business Council and the rest are playing Carole, and would like nothing more than to see her continue as NDP leader as they feel sure they can beat her again.

Having lived under every

Having lived under every known ideology, I'm still trying to find out what the hell "left, centrist, and right" mean in politics?

What are the definitions ?

I've been asking this question on this list for years, but nobody has been able to explain it ?

Perhaps if I had been living in BC all my life and read a few books I'd know ?

E.g. What were Stalin, Hitler and Mao ?

Ed Deak.

Stewart

You just said you didn't vote NDP in 2001. Hate to tell you this but that counts. And if Carole is still leader next time around I assume you'll be voting for her then?

Fact is, your side has been calling Carole names like stupid, shrill, incompetent, pathetic, Stalinist and so on for years. (And that's just from Seth and CanadianLatitude)

After years go by and someone challenges them instead of ignoring them you guys suddenly revert to this victim routine and claim that the Stalinists and "SEIC" are trying to assassinate you. Its frankly bizarre.

Why go around calling everybody names all the time if you're going to go into the fetal position when someone eventually does it back to you?

There was nothing in the post of P.Markunas that called for your over the top outburst. Nothing except your usual over-reaction to the merest disagreement. P.Markunas didn't call anyone a name, he simply made a point without having to use words like Stalinist and SEIC.

In the last election CJ got 42% of the vote. Except for Bob Skelly, no NDP leader has ever done better. Since the election she's been polling even higher than that.

So clearly her strategy of reaching out to the middle-of-the-road voters has been a good strategy. Whatever number of voters she's lost on the Left has been more than made up by attracting centrists to the party.

The current crisis is caused by people on the Left who are upset the party has moved towards the centre and they want to pull it back. Which requires new leadership.

That's fine, I understand their position. It makes perfect sense to me. But in addition there's this logic that replacing CJ and moving the party to the Left will bring back the disenchanted while not turning off all the people that CJ brought in. Those of us who question this logic are thus called names like Stalinists and SEIC.

The proof will be in the pudding. As I said a week ago the party has been damaged. With James and the moderates under attack from the Left, centrists are probably already on their way back to the Liberals and so the chances of the NDP forming government are gone.

So by all means bring in a left-wing leader like Kwan. Against a new Liberal leader she'll be lucky to hit 38% in an election but the Left will be happy.

Yep R/man

I agree. A lot of people who post at Tyee (especially anonymous ones like Lukie who have a history of screwing with people like Rod Smelser) are, and have been since before the deluge, inimical to the idea of social democratic government in this province...that's 'why' they post here.

Anyone who's been around here as long as I have would know that.

You know it too - I'd even suggest it's your reason for being here...to give bad advice and sow dissension.

Which is your ‘democratic’ and free speech right I suppose – just as it’s mine to point out what you’re up to and why no one should ever listen to your bad advice, flawed analysis and neocon thinking.

Anyone who thinks what Jenny Kwan and her roomies are doing will help the party and its prospects for power is, frankly, insane.

I want a decent humane government for this province - presumably Jenny Kwan does too.

This, her current diva moment, isn't the way to get it.

As for the so-called 'summary' expulsion of Bob Simpson...I think you need to look a lot more closely and listen much harder to what has actually been going on for the past several years in caucus.

I’m with Frank, I think shooting yourself in both feet is stupid – the guns need to be turned in an entirely different direction.

Seventh Generationists

Ed,

Left and right are concepts used by those who still think in the terms of the early twentieth century, most voters don't think in those terms but idealogues are unable to move past these oversimplifications, resulting in a lot of meaningless rhetoric.

My ideology is based on taking responsibility for the well being of the next seven generations; it means every decision must pass this test: Will it result in long term benefits or not?

This obviously means protecting our water, air, and other key resources and precludes
the rape and pillage "we want it now!" mentality of industrial society.

Industrialists who believe the wealthy should rule by some kind of divine right and take almost all the benefits, are right wing.

"Socialists" who support industrialism and merely want to tax industry to pay for social programs are supposedly "left wing"

"Seventh Generationists" fit in where in this spectrum?

Ed

As I've explained to you in the past, phrases like "left" and "right" are defined in the context of each political environment.

A "left-winger" in Soviet Russia is not the same as a "left-winger" in Saskatchewan.

Besides geography, era also has to be taken into account as positions change over the decades so a right-winger in 1871 Germany and one in 2010 probably won't agree on many policies.

If you don't want to use short-hand terms like left-winger we can instead say what? List all the policies a group supports and those they disagree with every time we want to identify them?

That will end up looking like a scene involving the Judaen People's Front from Monty Python's Life of Brian.

Frank.....I've studied this

Frank.....I've studied this question for over 60 years, in 4 countries, in about 3,000 books, 1,500 still on stock- we live about halfway between 150 Mile House and Likely, welcome to come and count them.

There are no left and right wings, except in the imagination of propagandists.

Because wealth can not be created only taken, there are only the predators and their victims under every goddamn flag the crooks are robbing the people blind, under.

I think it is about time for humanity to grow up and forget this kind of bullshit and work for democracy and human rights, which will put food on everybody's table and knock outr the stealing crooks.

E.g. What is causing the destruction of the middle class and the disgusting stealing privileges of a few ? Left or right wings ? The same under communist rule.

Now off to town to waste our pensions on luxuries to make people like Jimmy richer by the minute.

Ed Deak.

Ed

Then tell me what to use instead. Should I list Stewart's 14-line post every time I want to refer to him?

Would nobody except me find that distracting?

Should I say the "seventh-generationists", "syndo-anarchists", "used-to-be communists but now part-time believers in small business" and "radical environmentalists who want to shut down all industry but still allow eco-tours" disagreed with the position of the "child poverty advocates that support using petroleum products" and the "child poverty advocates that don't support using petroleum products" on the issue of gay marriage?

Who's to say the above definitions won't be offensive to someone and they'll want more verbose definitions?

Without using political short-hand how will anyone be able to post under the word count limit on the Tyee?

Once more. Part 1

Part of the problem in any discussion here is that we can't agree on the historical facts that led us to this stage. The 90's are still viewed in the myths perpetuated by the media even though all those myths have long since been shattered by subsequent events. So the NDP lost is 2001 not because theyw ere not listening, not because or arrogance but because the media spin worked and gullible NDP supporters couldn't bother to do a little critical thinking.

Then along came Campbell and for 4 years he tore away at BC with the apologist in the media sugar coating every action as being necessary because the NDP had left things in a mess. False, but even Palmer, Baldrey and Smythe fell into line and kept it up even as every NDP gaffe was dwarfed by equal actions by Campbell. The details have been adequately written about by writers on the Tyee. Still among some who pretend to be NDP supporters the myths are regularly dragged out to prove a point no longer relevant.

So the James forces trot out how bad the Clark government was suppose to have been every time they want to build up Carole James. They still need to make an excuse for their failure after some 6 years and two elections.

Never mind the few Liberal agitators here who do the same and trot out the same nonsense just so the "mouse that roared" or "curious George" has a chance. I am reminded of the rumor in the 90's that Glen Clark had an offer to become a talk show host and the firestorm that it created from the likes of Bill Good - Rafe was involved as well - so the offer was removed. They then give the job to Christy Clark four years later and not a peep from anyone. But I digress..

So these new NDP folks have trampled all over the corpses of the NDP in the 90's, and still do at times, and no one has had any concern. Furthermore no matter how bad the Liberals get in their rape of the province, no matter what they sell off, no matter how dishonest they get with secret deal and hush money in the Bazi/Virk case the NNDP is still playing nice and hoping that the other side will self destruct.

The Carole James supporters still credit her with rebuilding the party when in fact the party was rebuilt before she arrived by all those who did not desert it when they had 2 seats in the legislature. Most of those folks were shunted aside in favor of the new order. They stayed quiet in the hopes that the new strategy would work but here we are and seeing Carol's chances slip away they are now suppose to remain silent and go away.

Once more part 2

Conclusion:

First; stop blaming Glen Clark. Start blaming the political pundits who were asleep and start holding Carole James accountable while holding the liberal clones accountable.

Second; It ain't about Moe. Do you think any of the liberal organizers take leave without pay or work for free when they do Party work?

Third; It may be about giving bad advice to Carole but that is her failure not the adviser's.

Fourth; A good leader recognizes when they are done. The party should come first. Even Harcourt was not in this kind of a soup when he recognized that he should go and take the baggage with him.

Five; No one is indispensable in the movement. No one.

treatment

Carole should have stepped aside during her cancer treatment. I truly believe that she is not the same person she was before treatment. she's lost enough of her "edge" that it's negatively effected her leadership and image.

I'm not saying that people undergoing treatment should be abandoned; just they need they time to properly heal and realistically assess their pre and post treatment abilities.

However, considering all the NDP infighting I can see why she would be afraid of never getting her leader's position back.

Showdown At the OK Corral

Looks like James will be sticking to her guns and will be fighting back her "Et tu Brute" moment.

Looks like an emergency caucus meeting with provincial council will be held this weekend for a showdown at the proverbial OK Corral. (OK Carole?)

I suspect that a majority of caucus and provincial council will support a decision to boot Kwan from caucus to send a signal to the other "Gang of 13" to get into line.

Now, after that, how does the NDP dig itself out of that political hole with the public? The dissension will still be there. Will more caucus members leave and join Kwan and Simpson as an independent caucus?

Looks like long time party stalwart Bob Williams might be pulling the strings of this beer hall putsch. He is a mentor to Jenny Kwan, opposes James, and Williams was also instrumental in attempting to boot out NDP leaders Skelly and Harcourt back in the day.

Certainly Machiavellian.

Lukie

Isn't posting a comment in just one place on the same news site enough?

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