The B.C. Liberals have been laying plans to split the May 12 environmental vote for more than a year, according to environmental activist Rod Marining.
Marining, a co-founder of Greenpeace International and vice-chair of the British Columbia Environmental Network, said a B.C. Liberal cabinet minister told him in November 2007 that the party was planning a five-issue campaign aimed at luring away about 8 per cent of the NDP and Green Party vote.
Marining told The Tyee that he met Pat Bell, then minister of agriculture and lands, at an event to celebrate the creation of protected habitat for the mountain caribou. Minister Bell was the featured speaker at the Vancouver event.
Both men had inadvertently arrived at the Richards Street restaurant an hour early. Marining said they sat down “over a couple of scotches,” and Bell brought up several environmental issues and the votes to be gained from them.
Marining recalled that Bell told him, “There are green votes in all parties,” and that Bell broke down the percentages by parties. Marining recalled Bell figuring that 8 per cent of the Green and New Democrat vote could be drawn to the Liberals.
Marining said Bell predicted five issues would attract those voters: the Great Bear Rainforest, protection of the mountain caribou, electric cars, the carbon tax, and renewable energy.
“This was clearly going to be the frontal attack,” Marining told The Tyee, “and it would take the Greens and NDP by surprise.”
Minister Bell confirmed Marining's recollection of the event and the conversation, though he said he did not recall the specifics about vote percentages.
When contacted by The Tyee on Wednesday, Bell recalled the issues he discussed with Marining slightly differently: “The mountain caribou, the Great Bear Rainforest, a light footprint for log harvesting, and a low-carbon agenda.”
If they talked about cars, he said, it was more likely hybrids rather than electric cars.
“I’m not really a politician. I don’t talk about politics on a day-to-day basis," Bell told The Tyee.
“We too are concerned about the environment,” he said. “We have an opportunity to capture the environmentalist vote.”
Crawford Kilian is a contributing editor of The Tyee.
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bcliberals_suck
3 years ago
Dark Days for the Environmental Movement in BC
See, I smelled a rat with the stench of Liberal, although, this is a very American-style strategic attack. But what no-one is writing about is how those environmental groups that have sucked up to the Liberals and have helped do their dirty work are going to be rewarded _if_ Campbell and his "I’m not really a politician" politicians get back in again.
Remember, the appointments to the Green Council, a fool is born everyday. They actually think they will matter to that government. Why not look at the real environmental record of this government:
http://bcliberalssuck.blogspot.com/2009/04/bc-liberals-real-record-on-environment.html
This has put a blight on the environmental movement in general, who would want to be associated with these groups and "climate change leaders" who participate in this kind of underhanded, psychopathic and amoral chicanery. Yuck, haven't we had 8 too many years of this?
It's time to get back to some really basic respect, dignity and integrity in BC. It's what we all deserve from our government.
politico
3 years ago
Im not really a politician
Your apparently not really a minister either...
AI
3 years ago
This is politics
As an environmentalist-type person, I can't say this bothers me overmuch. Every party should be competing for my vote by putting better policies in place. And it would be churlish and dishonest not to note that the Liberals were much better this term than last.
But they have upgraded from horrible only up to miserable, they aren't anywhere near good enough on the issues they claim to be so wonderful on (worth noting they are just as bad on forestry as they have been on climate policy, which sure as hell more than just a carbon tax) and there is no chance I wwould vote for them and their awful environmental policies.
Rod Smelser
3 years ago
Right bcliberals_suck
But what no-one is writing about is how those environmental groups that have sucked up to the Liberals and have helped do their dirty work are going to be rewarded
A polite understatement actually.
And please don't forget the similarities with last fall's federal election, the role of Elizabeth May, the Green Shift (now totally repudiated by Ignatieff) and the academic climate specialists and the open letter in support of carbon taxes from the university economists.
And don't forget the first run of this Liberal/ENGO/academics strategy, the London byelection of late late 2006.
Bruce
3 years ago
attitude problem
>A polite understatement actually.
And yet the NDP takes that attitude, it might as well pack up its tent in BC.
The fact is that not everybody is a red diaper baby, union member, or joined the international socialists in undergrad. The rest of us, you have to earn our vote, and make an effort to keep your tent a bit bigger than is comfortable. A good start would be to stop talking about "working men and women" and try out the words "citizen" or "people" again.
The enviros have, as the last poster noted, just very consistently followed what their research has told them has the best chance of working in the real world. What's really sad here is that the NDP fell right into the trap the liberals laid out for them.
brg61
3 years ago
Big Problems Left Unresolved
Campbell has implemented some good plans
regarding environmental issues. His gas
tax is bold when compared to other, more
timid governments. I think it hits low
and mid income people hard, while big
polluters are exempted. But he deserves
credit for not ignoring or just pushing
the problem decades ahead.
Green voters must hold him accountable
for the fish farm industry and the harm
it is doing to wild salmon stocks such
as lice and escaped atlantic salmon.
I think the plan for private comp. getting
access to our rivers to generate power
should be better explained.
And is the benefit of less traffic from
expanded skytrain lines mitigated by the
delta port and port mann bridge project?
realisticman
3 years ago
And - the NDP endorsed a Carbon Tax
"Prior to the BC Liberal government introducing a carbon tax last year, the NDP seemed to like the policy. At the 2007 Provincial NDP party convention, they adopted unanimously a sustainability report stating that:
"Effective Climate Change Initiatives: apply carbon taxes to motivate the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions by ensuring that of fossil fuels reflect the environmental and social costs of their production and use, while building in “just transition” measures to minimize impacts on low-income households."
Since then, the website where the NDP originally posted this statement has been revised to:
"apply carbon pricing to motivate the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions by ensuring that prices of fossil fuels reflect the environmental and social costs of their production and use, while building in “just transition” measures to minimize impacts on low-income households"
The Sustainable BC report was originally drafted by the NDP Standing Committee on the Environment for an Ecologically and Economically Sustainable Future (SCOEE).
The scrubbed quote also lives on near the 16-minute mark of a video the NDP produced in conjunction with their Sustainable BC plan."
Here's a screenshot:
http://www.desmogblog.com/sites/beta.desmogblog.com/files/ndp-effective-carbon-tax.jpg
G West
3 years ago
The Campbell Tax
IS NOT A CARBON TAX
It's a money spinning tax it launders money just like Tony Soprano does - it does absolutely nothing to address ghg emissions; it is interested only in spinning money to the CEO's friends - WHEN GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE IT A REAL TAX WHICH WOULD HELP FINANCE TRANSIT AND GIVE PEOPLE REAL CHOICES AND NOT ERSATZ ONES....Wait for it - the Premier backed down.
Why would any intelligent person pay any attention to something produced by Jim Hoggan – a BC LIBERAL supporter wearing green clothes.
Environmentalists really need to take a long look at their friends.
Skywalker
3 years ago
Does the term "crass political opportunism" come to mind?
And I thought the term applied to James for her platform to axe the gas tax grab. I wonder if the greens will accuse the liberals of crass political opportunism without first looking in the mirror. It is almost comical.
Van Isle
3 years ago
Heard David Suzuki on the
Heard David Suzuki on the radio the other morning and I couldn't believe what he is still saying about Gordo's gas tax; he's very much in favour of it. It's obvious that David is still not paying attention. Not being a religious person but that old saying "Lord give me strength" comes to mind.
Rod Smelser
3 years ago
Whose "attitude problem"?
Bruce
The fact is that not everybody is a red diaper baby, union member, or joined the international socialists in undergrad. ... stop talking about "working men and women" ...
As someone who does come from a working class home where both parents belonged to unions, I do have a problem with this Victorian English, upstairs/downstairs kind of attitude. It's surprising how widespread this kind of thing is in Canada, and nowhere more so than in B.C., where Glen Clark is still vilified by environmentalists because of his work before politics with the Ironworkers Union.
The enviros have, as the last poster noted, just very consistently followed what their research has told them has the best chance of working in the real world.
The "enviros", eh? So they're another type too are they?
Have they followed the best research, or the most established voices? Have they really thought about how to price carbon, or are they just listening to the diatribes from "the government environmental poodle" who has his own private scores to settle with the NDP.
Skywalker
3 years ago
Bruce.
So you think it is OK to give Campbell a pass on a total sell-off of BC's resources to make a few friends rich just so you can get a gas tax passed that doesn't do a thing for climate change but give Gordon more money to buy votes. You think it's OK to give him a pass on all the scandals, the stonewalling the arrogance displayed just so you can claim some credit for having accomplished something? You think the NDP should have fallen for this in the same crass political opportunistic way? Is that the gullibility of "a green moss diaper" baby?
crh
3 years ago
this so-called
carbon tax is simply a political move from our current CEO.
Perhaps you could re-name it whatever you like it to be, for your purposes. One could call it a junk-food tax. See what kind of political opportunism that could bring you. You could grab all those votes from health nuts out there. Or you could call it the addiction tax. What about an organic food tax?
This tax is a tax by name only. It does nothing to help the cause of reducing carbon emissions. Get with it people!
VivianLea Doubt
3 years ago
upstairs/downstairs
I confess I never heard of a "red diaper baby" - where've I been? My point would be that even Bill Gates started out as a working person; there are indeed, very few people who do not work.
I would be inclined to agree with your analysis there, Rod.
Wilfred Laurier
3 years ago
Wow
"The B.C. Liberals have been laying plans to split the May 12 environmental vote for more than a year"
Wow, how enlightening! Tell me something I didn't know.
politico
3 years ago
When you keep digging yourself in deeper throw away the shovel
Today Will Horter and company launch their ABC Campaign. Masquerading as "conservation voters" these three sell outs now chime in with the other corporate hand maidens in the desperate plea to protect their corporate power plays.
Shameful display amongst the environmental community which proves the old adage that most of these front groups are simply conservatives hiding behind trees.
Here is the rhetoric from today's annoncement
foudn here: http://www.conservationvoters.ca/endorsements
“Anybody But Carole” (Victoria – Beacon Hill) As leader, the decision to position the NDP campaign against world-leading climate policies while not putting forward improvements or better alternatives is on her shoulders. We do not endorse Carole James for re-election.
Due to the New Democrats’ failure to be leaders in promoting real solutions to global warming we cannot endorse any NDP incumbents that were members of this past caucus. We believe the party needs new leadership and new voices that take a more urgent, principled and collaborative approach to meeting the challenges of climate change.
Frank
3 years ago
Conservation Voters
I'm sure they'll prefer Campbell if they didn't already.
politico
3 years ago
true enough Frank
Oddly, Horter has a following amongst center left leaning types due to his feel good environmental convictions.
I remember him marching around with Dobbin years ago.....
Point is, what we are seeing is sheer, crass political opportunism. These folks see the Liberal threepeat as inevitable (especially given the green strategy within the NDP designed to sideline the party for Gregor's debut on to the big stage) and they are playing up every angle to this end.
However the full court press is beginning to spin back on them. Clearly this onslaught is leaving a bad taste in the mouth of anybody in possession of a clue.
These guys may green themselves right out of government!
freebear
3 years ago
Green to the Gills over Enviro Sell Outs!
Next thing you know enviro groups will be for profit companies and begin issuing stocks shares!
Shame , shame!
freebear
3 years ago
Barry Penner endorsed!
And Horters pals seen fit to endorse the Env Minister Penner!
Like endorsing the captain of the Exxcon Valdez!
Rod Smelser
3 years ago
Will Horter and David Cubberly
Attn: G West and Politico
There's not much new here, in that Will Horter was a central, if not the central character in the various manouevres in Saanich-Gulf Islands desigend to force out Green and NDP candidates in an ultimately unsuccessful attempt to coalesce all non-Tory support behind Briony Penn.
I wonder what David Cubberly has to say about this, since he also endorsed Penn, and pointedly refused to run again provincially.
Bruce
3 years ago
Rod>As someone who does come
Rod>As someone who does come from a working class home where both parents belonged to unions, I do have a problem with this Victorian English, upstairs/downstairs kind of attitude...
Yikes, that wasn't my point at all, and I was intending to poke fun, not disparage the NDP's core members. I've actually found even former international socialists disciplined and solid to work with, much more so than the alternative crowd.
My issue is that *within the NDP*, non-working class people have second-class status and are very often (including on this thread) trashed and treated as if their motives are suspect. The fact that you may have experienced a "victorian" attitude outside the NDP doesn't mean its constructive to flip it around within the NDP. I swear a lot of NDP campaigners sound like Rush listeners, going on about urban latte drinking enviros driving beamers.
The NDP can't win unless it keeps a bigger tent. Look at this thread - the minute you find yourselves having to complete for the environmentalist vote, it's all sour grapes. It's a suicidal response. It's exactly what gordo was hoping for.
Opposition to the carbon tax would have been passible *if* a viable alternative had been offered, or if the criticism had been constructive. But the NDP did totally the wrong thing - it opposed the very idea of any scheme that would increase gas prices. Even their cap and trade system is crippled by the fact it exempts consumers.
They're not just against this one
tactically motived tax structure, the axe the tax campaign is salting the ground against a whole range of policy options. You left enviros who put climate as their #1 issue with *no choice* but to counter attack.
Bruce
3 years ago
Holy crap, its like reading
Holy crap, its like reading a forum for a suicide pact. You guys are *done* if you keep going like this!
MAC
3 years ago
A vote for the Green is a vote for the BC Liberals
The science is in on the Carbon Tax. It doesn't work - people are actually consuming more fuel since the implementation of the Carbon Tax - making oil company profits soar.
A vote for the Green Party is a vote for the BC Liberals! Its the Green Party keeping the BC Liberals in power. It's time for the Green and the NDP to almagamate.
Rod Smelser
3 years ago
Where did you come across this attitude?
Bruce
My issue is that *within the NDP*, non-working class people have second-class status and are very often (including on this thread) trashed and treated as if their motives are suspect.
I have never seen people who are not workers treated uncivily in NDP offices or campaigns. They might get kidded about being degree holders, but it's not exclusionary or serious. Where have you ever come across this hostile attitude you're refering to?
G West
3 years ago
Bruce
That's not my experience at all...and I'd wager I've been involved in more campaigns in more ridings across more provinces than you have.
Sometimes a little knowledge is a very dangerous thing.
The NDP is offering a alternative - but, even if they weren't, the phony CAMPBELL Tax is worse than nothing and has to go...if the CEO had taken a different approach in his meetings with the mayors yesterday and agreed to halt the money-spinning aspect of the tax and put the revenue towards something useful besides his own fragile ego then I'd have changed my tune and called it a Carbon Tax.
He didn't, and I didn't have to.
Campbell is the incumbent - he had a chance to do things differently, be honest and accountable and govern for someone other than a small circle of friends.
He failed - it's time to put paid to the era of CEO government - none too soon either - if you were in the halls of the Finance Ministry these days you'd understand how big the bill is going to be.
politico
3 years ago
Smelser
relax
that was then this is now.
Penn would not be and is not running as a BC Lib. She ran as a Dion green Lib.
Big differnce there and where I and the likes Horter part company.
Bruce
3 years ago
Re the "working people"
Re the "working people" thing, most people I know take that to be a kind of code, the way "taxpayers" is meant to be taken as middle class or above, and exclude students or the poor.
As I brought up on another thread, the NDP in 1999 removed almost all labour code protection from high tech workers with next to no consultation except with employers. I guess we weren't real working people.
Anyways. I agree this issue needs to be put to rest very quickly and gordo defeated. Moving on to more constructive things - what's needed to do that is some kind of signal that the NDP accepts that consumer-level carbon pricing is on the table. I'm sure it can be done in an equitable way, and if the NDP were in power it could be.
Focus on how unfair the carbon tax is, sure, but cut out the witchunt against enviro campaigners. They just need a signal the NDP intends to deal with emmissions pricing at the consumer level as well.
Wilfred Laurier
3 years ago
Exactly
"A vote for the Green is a vote for the BC Liberals"
The Liberals have stolen a major plank of the Green platform. When the NDP flip-flopped on carbon taxes, they moved in like sharks for the kill.
Now the election is centred on the NDP and the Greenies having it out in public.
It is politically brilliant and Carole fell for it hook, line and sinker. Campbell waved the red cape and Carole charged straight for it. Now she is going to go to political oblivion. Well, if her party has any sense she will but that is an open question, isn't it?
politico
3 years ago
See Bruce gets it!
He is bang on when he says
Holy crap, its like reading a forum for a suicide pact. You guys are *done* if you keep going like this!
Then NDP is being destroyed from within by "green" politics.
Currently the push is to sideline the party and cater to Gordo's threepeat while ensuring a clear path for "change" to be introduced by their chosen one. Enter Gregor Robertson 2013.
Take back BC, yeah right, only after the oilympics and the sell out of what's left of BC.
Frank
3 years ago
politico
With all respect to Bruce and his well reasoned argument, the NDP is not the enemy.
As you posted about Horter, the "greens" are actually supporting Campbell. Many people that care about the environment AND other things like poverty and health care will support the NDP. That's all there is to it.
If the "greens" want to support Campbell over the carbon tax and turn a blind eye to everything else then they, not the NDP, are to blame for the next 4 years.
After all, no one is forcing "greens" to vote for Gateway, child poverty, run of river, huge deficits and so on. They jsut like to pretend they're being forced.
Wilfred Laurier
3 years ago
Bruce, you are bang on
Bruce is correct in his observation that the NDP is shooting itself in the foot by picking a public fight with the Greenies.
"Then NDP is being destroyed from within by "green" politics."
There will always be a hard core of NDP in BC of about 30%. Well, it is 30% at the moment but demographics have brought that number down already from 35% in 1990. To win elections, the NDP has to broaden its tent and the Greenies are the logical place to do that. Harcourt did just this and the Greenies were the major reason Clark won in 1996.
The Greenies have now been cast from the tent by the edicts of metal bashing unions who oppose carbon taxes, feeling that such a tax on pollution will cost them jobs. Well, those jobs are going anyway as the economy changes away from metal bashing to services and technology.
Meanwhile, when the NDP flip-flopped on carbon taxes, Campbell saw a golden opportunity to divide and conquer. He will always poll a good 40% in BC but last time it was just too close a shave, only 5000 votes, so he set about to get Carole to pick a fight with the Greenies. With nary a thought, Carole charged at the carbon tax red cape. Sure, this played to the faithful who would oppose free vaccines for babies if the Liberals offered it, but it set a rift between the Greenies and the NDP, who are now at war with each other.
The problem is that when the post morten is done is that the NDP will, as usual, be unable to admit the reasons for its flummoxing were of their own doing. First there will be silence and then blame: of course that blame will be of anyone but themselves.
Finally, whomever is running their campaign should be publicly flogged for running such and awful show. Really, it is pathetic how they cannot pick and issue and run with it.
I also agree that Robertson would be a much better leader for the NDP but he has rather green credentials and I don't think the party Faithful could swallow that.
Campbellwearsatutu
3 years ago
Greens have screwed up......
The so-called frontal attack,it has totally backfired,no greens will be voting for Campbell,in fact what has happened is the greens have torn themselves apart,disgruntled green voters will be voting for the NDP.
This election won`t be decided by endorsements,everyone knows the Campbell tax doesn`t work.
The mistake the greens and Campbell is making is underestimating the voters intelligence,all 21 mayors have stated that the carbon tax doesn`t work,Sterk and Campbell want to tell some worker in prince george or where ever who hasn`t changed their life one iota,they are still snow mobiling,still driving their truck,still heating their home,still watching TV on their 80 inch HDTV---To tell these people that the carbon/gas tax is saving the world when they are doing the same old,same old thing is a joke!
The green movement (IMO) is going to suffer setbacks on any gains they made in the past,all because they made side deals with Campbell/
Wilfred Laurier
3 years ago
Today's Flip-Flop
"Wrong bride, wrong place, wrong time" was Carole's long time opinion of the Port Mann expansion.
But that changed today on the radio debate. Well done, Carole!
Frank
3 years ago
Meanwhile, in reality land
"I also agree that Robertson would be a much better leader for the NDP but he has rather green credentials and I don't think the party Faithful could swallow that."
Robertson burned his bridges with those he needs to support him. Perhaps he could become the leader of the Greens and then you would see the NDP get 30%, the Greens get 20% and the provincial "Reform Party" get 50% and win in a landslide.
And of course those 70% that didn't vote NDP would still blame us for all the problems of the world.
Wilfred Laurier
3 years ago
My point exactly, Frank
Frank, you made my point exactly. It is not very possible for Gregor to be part of the NDP. Their flip flop on carbon taxes were a major issue on his departure.
That aside, what is your opinion on the Port Mann flip-flop, Frank?
G West
3 years ago
Robertson
Funny, I heard he mayor interviewed on radio either yesterday or the day before and he made it quite clear he supports the NDP and is against the Campbell Tax as presently constituted.
The fact of the matter is that the 'fight' you're talking about is a PAB-sponsored kerfuffle and that's about all.
But, hey, greens, go ahead and vote for the Campbell Tax - as I've said before, there is no accounting for the stupidity of some people.
As for you Wilfrid, give us a break, you're here for the same reason Bruce is, to keep piling this molehill into a mountain.
If Bruce actually tells the truth when he describes the Campbell government as corrupt then there's no other explanation for his behavior. The fact the Opposition opposed the Campbell Tax from the day it was passed is hardly news to anyone - this issue is a phony and manipulative attempt to draw attention away from the real issue - Gordon Campbell and corruption.
The NDP tried to get the Liberals to amend and change the carbon tax but Campbell and his henchmen forced the issue with NO substantive debate.
If that's the kind of government you want - by all means - vote BC Liberal.
I hope you noticed the title of this article folks!
Frank
3 years ago
Wilf
"That aside, what is your opinion on the Port Mann flip-flop, Frank?"
I've been against the new Port Mann and still am. As for James, that's the problem with a "big tent" party, you get leaders that many in the party don't agree with on some issues.
However, unlike your party, the federal Libs, I doubt too many left-wing NDPers will dump James on election day the way federal Libs that didn't like Dion sat on their hands.
Speaking of flip-flops, today I see the Conservatives are going to bail out the auto companies with another $6 billion.
Wilfred Laurier
3 years ago
Garth
Garth, I would like to know your opinion of the Port Mann flip-flop. Why the sudden change? Wasn't it the "Wrong bridge, wrong place, wrong time?" Or has that changed as of a couple of hours ago?
Garth, your party needs to examine what it is doing wrong and how that is leading to the debacle of May 12. Your campaign is in a shambles and Campbell won't pull out the heavy artillery until next week at the earliest. You can have the best intentions in the world but in a democracy, you need votes to form a government.
Wilfred Laurier
3 years ago
Frank
Frank, this is a provincial election. What do you think is the reason of the Port Mann flip flop? Is this a positive development for your party?
Frank
3 years ago
Wilf
What part of my answer was confusing?
G West
3 years ago
No flip flop Wilfrid - you just haven't been paying attention!
As Frank points out, and Rod has too, that's been policy for quite some time.
I disagree with it - and I hope, when James is in government, she'll reconsider...but, even if she doesn't, I find the question a bit odd coming from someone who supports a serial liar and promise-breaker like the current CEO.
Would you care for examples?
My understanding is that even some of his time honoured supporters like my old friend and Liberal bagman Marty Zlotnik aren't so pleased with the way your guy does does the turnaround..
I certainly do agree with you that if the stupid people - who have as many votes as the smart ones (ie one each) come out to the polls on May 12 in their numbers that it will be a disaster.
But, as I've said before, I'm in this for the long haul and guys like you and Campbell are little more than fly spots on the wall in my world.
I just try to work for something better for the people who've been forgotten in YOURS.
Luke Skywalker Redux
3 years ago
Wilfred Laurier...
Like the BC Place retractable roof flip-flop, the carbon tax flip flop... not much credibility there anymore.
But the most bizarre aspect of the Port Mann Bridge flip-flop, is that Carole James is now taking credit for the HOV/rapid bus lanes across the new Port Mann Bridge, when in fact the HOV/rapid bus lanes were already part of the initial proposal.
http://www.cknw.com/Channels/Reg/NewsLocal/Story.aspx?ID=1085580
Too funny.
Frank
3 years ago
Luke
"not much credibility there anymore."
I note you haven't addressed your own flip flops in spite of me posting a few of them twice.
Wilfred Laurier
3 years ago
No Flip Flop?
So Garth, there hasn't been a Port Mann flip-flop? What about the "wrong bridge, wrong place, wrong time" thingie? If the flip-flop wasn't today, can you refresh my memory when the exact date of the flip-flop was? Was around the same time as the carbon tax flip-flop, say mid-2007?
Luke, when a huge flip-flop has been made, Carole has to try to take some of the credit.
There must be a lot of howling laughter on the Campbell campaign today!
Campbellwearsatutu
3 years ago
Flip flops
"I won`t sell BC Rail,I won`t tear up contracts,goverment advertising,open and honest goverment,5000 long term care beds,Surrey hospitals,Gambling,Poverty,Coquihalla highway,Golden parachute pensions"
Gordon Campbell KING of FLIP FLOPS--Bold faced liar and lawbreaker,Credibilty,,LOL LOL LOL
Wilfred Laurier
3 years ago
Glad to hear it Garth
"But, as I've said before, I'm in this for the long haul and guys like you and Campbell are little more than fly spots on the wall in my world."
So, Garth, given that your party is going down to a flummoxing of 1983 proportions (fortunately not 2001 proportions) what is your proposals for an NDP victory in 2013? Is there anything you think your party could do to actually form a government or is the status quo a guarantee of victory?
Frank
3 years ago
its all a big joke
"There must be a lot of howling laughter on the Campbell campaign today!"
And on Howe Street. And in the Chambers of Commerce. And at the Fraser Institute. And at the BC Car Dealer's Association. And at...
Probably also a lot of kids wishing someone would help their mum and a lot of senior's wishing they could get some assistance too, but then no one thinks of them when there's champagne to be poured.
realisticman
3 years ago
Frank
"And on Howe Street. And in the Chambers of Commerce. And at the Fraser Institute. And at the BC Car Dealer's Association. And at..."
You're just continuing to do exactly what Bruce suggests.
Like Garth telling people to go back to their big-business-Campbell friends. Telling successful people that they HAD to be born with a silver spoon, simple hard work is just not credible, and all gains are really 'stolen' from the 'working people'.
Classic outdated class war in an attempt to drive division.
Frank
3 years ago
r/man
"Like Garth telling people to go back to their big-business-Campbell friends."
Ummm, I see nothing wrong with that statement.
"Classic outdated class war in an attempt to drive division."
Campbell (and you) don't "drive division"? Did you read the article?
Wilfred Laurier
3 years ago
True...
"Classic outdated class war in an attempt to drive division."
And it is not working. The NDP campaign is in a shambles. They need to find another way to do the good works they want to do and get enough votes to do it.
But that point is completely missed so Campbell is waltzing into a third term. They haven't even pulled out they heavy artillery yet and the NDP is already all but beaten. Only the size of the defeat is now in question.
Liberals 60 NDP 25. Any other estimates?
Frank
3 years ago
and...
"And it is not working."
No, it certainly isn't. The number of kids in poverty keeps rising but the champagne keeps flowing.
Wilfred Laurier
3 years ago
Perhaps, Frank
Perhaps you are correct, Frank, but really, if your party wants to win elections it has to change something because the staus quo isn't working for you.
Frank
3 years ago
Wilf
"because the staus quo isn't working for you."
It never will. But although it would be nice to win this is a democracy and if people can't look around at the problems and stop voting for the people making things worse there's not much anyone can do.
G West
3 years ago
Sorry Wilfrid
You're going to have to learn to read.
I could care less about winning anything if I have to appeal to "successful" people like the realisticman and you wilfrid - I'd rather continue to build than do the kind of tearing down of social capital that your kind of 'government' means.
Perhaps you'd both care to read Warren Buffett on what 'real' class warfare is all about.
How'd it be if I provided a few quotes for you - or do you think you can handle clicking on the link and reading this for yourself?
http://tiny.cc/PeJvl
frenchy mcswede
3 years ago
frenchy mcswede
As reported two or three issues ago in Victoria's Monday Magazine, Jane Sterk has a large picture of herself being hugged by a smiking gordon campbell on her office wall. She also has nearly as many ties to the business community as campbell himself. I guess you could say that sterk is kind of a puppet's puppet's puppet, although even saying that leaves out several sets of strings.
A friend of mine back in the eighties worked building a small tar and gravel roof on david suzuki's house, and mr suzuki, mr brainpower himself, actually put a nail for some purpose right through the tar thus ruining the roofing job altogether -for even a small hole in such a roof will allow water to flow in in unlimited qualities when it rains. This left suzuki's father shaking his head and exhorting, "Such a smart man, but in so many ways, how stupid!" The point being that even someone with some smarts like suzuki is still prone to serious errors of judgement, even regarding well known scientific principles. Endorsing a premier who gutted every environmental regulation in his first term, who has single handedly helped wipe out wild salmon, who is in favor of unlimited oil and gas exploration in one of the most shipwreck prone areas of the world, is however A MUCH LARGER ERROR IN JUDGEMENT, more akin to chopping a hole in said tar and gravel roof,inserting a firehouse, then turning it on full blast. Those of us with suspicious minds can not help wonder as well if suzuki's being a millionaire, his large water front prperty in kitsilano, is by itself worth several million effects his support for a premier who supports such large taxcuts for the wealthy (hint, hint)...
If, however, so-called greens want to see who a real environmental hero supports, they need look no further than Alexandra Morton, who fought vigorously against the scourge of farmed salmon, at the risk of her career as government funded scientist, long before it was fashionable, with unremitting courage and integrity, while the premier was busy denying every single one of the monumental pieces of SCIENTIFIC INFORMATION AGAINST FISH FARMING!!
Green supporters should ask themselves, WHERE WERE SUZUKI, BERMAN, AND THE PEMBINA INSTITUTE AND FOREST ETHICS WHEN ALL THESE STILL ON GOING ASSAULTS ON THE ENVIRONMENT WERE BEING PERPETRATED??? Well, we certainly know where they are now, and if you want to see the last wild salmon wash up dead on the beach, oil derrecks in some of the most dangerous coastal waters on the planet, and environmental degradation on a scale never seen before in bc then, by all means, VOTE GREEN AND ELECT GORDON CAMPBELL. If you possess both a conscience and an intellect you will want to vote ndp...
Er, "bruce," you wouldn't be bruce hallsor, would you?
G West
3 years ago
Or is Warren Buffett
Not successful enought for you?
Rod Smelser
3 years ago
politico
politico
that was then this is now.
Penn would not be and is not running as a BC Lib. She ran as a Dion green Lib.
Big differnce there and where I and the likes Horter part company.
Where is the "big difference"? I believe it's part of single integrated operating plan.
Rod Smelser
3 years ago
Bruce:
Bruce
Focus on how unfair the carbon tax is, sure, but cut out the witchunt against enviro campaigners
Who is hunting who? Have you read the Conservation Voters statement, or checked out some of the material on DeSmogBlog.com?
Rod Smelser
3 years ago
Frank: Why do people have to do this
Frank
"That aside, what is your opinion on the Port Mann flip-flop, Frank?"
I've been against the new Port Mann and still am. As for James, that's the problem with a "big tent" party, you get leaders that many in the party don't agree with on some issues.
Carole James has not flip-flopped on Port Mann. Statements made in late 2006 may have appeared that way, but that was not her intention.
Why Frank and some other NDPers are against this project, I have no idea. I can only assume they are also opposed to the new Pitt River and Golden Ears Bridges, and to the new Lake Okanagan Bridge, and to any replacement for the Patullo Bridge.
Rod Smelser
3 years ago
Wilfred Laurier
Wilfred Laurier
"Wrong bride, wrong place, wrong time" was Carole's long time opinion of the Port Mann expansion.
This is a perfectly silly and intentionally misleading distortion, as you and Luke S. well know. As you also know, the design for this structure has been changed by the Government themselves, from a second 4 to 6 lane structure to a single 10 lane structure with the existing span removed.
So even your Government has conceded, at least by their actions if not by their words, that the design was subject to considerable change.
Carole James was objecting to the fact that the initial plans did not include sufficient provisions for public transit, and in fact there is still nothing concrete, only potential capabilities.
Luke Skywalker Redux
3 years ago
Class War... The Old NDP Relic
Most people define themselves as "middle-class"... hmmmmm ~80% of the populace... and then the remaining hard-left wing of the NDP still defines itself in an outdated mode as "the working class".
That's why I have always advocated the Ontario and federal models with two "middle-class" parties ... the Libs and PC's leaving the NDP as the 3rd "working-class" party.
It's a more natural political alignment.
The current right-wing of the BC NDP, the "federal Liberal wing" inclusive of the Gregor Robertson's, the Mike Harcourt's, the Dan Miller's, etc. would more comfortably fit into the federal or Ontario-type Liberal party here in BC.
And the right-wing of the BC Liberals would also more naturally fit into a BC PC party.
It's a more natural political alignment.
Rod Smelser
3 years ago
G West
G West
I disagree with it - and I hope, when James is in government, she'll reconsider...
What is this all about, G West? It sounds like the kind of thing we hear from Stephen and Bill Rees, from Gordon Price and Larry Frank.
No one may argue rationally that 1 million additional Lower Mainland residents means more cars and more traffic. Denial is not planning. No one would take this approach with any other public utility, so why roads?
Rod Smelser
3 years ago
Class War... The Old Liberal Relic
The Liberals practice class war in a very large way. That's what Bill 29 was all about, as everyone knows.
Luke Skywalker Redux
3 years ago
Rod Smelser...
Oh come on Rod. I always thought better of you:
http://www2.canada.com/surreynow/story.html?id=45e4f3a7-f25e-41da-9002-7aadeaf5747d
Just google it up. Tons of articles on the matter over the past few years.
Frank
3 years ago
Luke
"That's why I have always advocated the Ontario and federal models with two "middle-class" parties ... the Libs and PC's"
LOL. Yep, Harper and Iggy, just regular working joe's... LOL
"The current right-wing of the BC NDP, the "federal Liberal wing" inclusive of the Gregor Robertson's, the Mike Harcourt's, the Dan Miller's, etc. would more comfortably fit into the federal or Ontario-type Liberal party here in BC."
You don't vote for NDPers from the federal Liberal wing of the party so this statement means nothing.
"It's a more natural political alignment."
No it isn't, what's more natural is to have lots of parties because all the political views of the people of BC or Canada can't be represented by 2 parties.
Wilfred Laurier
3 years ago
Post Mortem
So, in the end, who will the NDP blame in the post mortem? Can anything be learned from this? Can the NDP alter it's dynamics to attract more voters?
From what I read above, I don't see that it can. Even the Faithful have admitted defeat.
Rod Smelser
3 years ago
Quote out of context
Luke S.
Just google it up. Tons of articles on the matter over the past few years.
A quote out of context, interpreted in a way the speaker did not intend, is an intentional distortion. It's deliberately misleading
Frank
3 years ago
Wilf
"So, in the end, who will the NDP blame in the post mortem?"
The lack of votes.
"Can anything be learned from this?"
Yes, there's more right-wing voters than left-wing voters.
"Can the NDP alter it's dynamics to attract more voters?"
Not at all, there is no growth to be made as right-wingers will never vote NDP.
Luke Skywalker Redux
3 years ago
Rod Smelser...
Rod, the NDP's own press release from September 27, 2007 re-inforced Carole James "It is the wrong bridge and the wrong plan right now" statement.
She was expressing her opposition not only to the Port Mann Bridge twinning but also the related freeway expansion of Highway 1 at the 2007 UBCM convention and the NDP released a press release on the same day:
http://www.bcndp.ca/newsroom/transit-now-reduce-congestion-greenhouse-gases-james-tells-ubcm
Again the buzz word's:
1. "Transit is first priority";
2. "Not [past] solutions"; (freeways and bridges)
3. "Yesterday's solution"; (freeways and bridges);
That was when the NDP was still pandering to the enviro vote and supported a carbon tax.
But they threw those principles out the window and then flip-flopped later on both issues.
Frank
3 years ago
Luke
"and then flip-flopped later on both issues"
Maybe they were copying you...
Luke was against carbon taxes, then for them, then supported them but didn't like them and now supports them unreservedly.
Bruce
3 years ago
>"Can anything be learned
>"Can anything be learned from this?"
Hire a cast of skilled actors and start a right wing party.
Rod Smelser
3 years ago
Intentional Distortion
But they threw those principles out the window and then flip-flopped later on both issues.
Some might call this spin, I call it intentional distortion.
G West
3 years ago
Rod
We've been down this road before - I think every driver who comes into the downtown peninsula should be charged a $10 fee - automatically - just like they do in London...(and the proceeds used to pay for a REAL transit system)...You're right that James hasn't flip-flopped on the Pt Mann but that doesn't mean I have to agree with her position on the new bridge.
I think we have to get rid of cars anyway and the sooner the better - but I wouldn't leave you without an alternative AND paying all the bills the way Campbell wants you to be left...
I know why you think the way you do on the issue - I think you're mistaken, but, just as I disagree with Frank about Afghanistan, I can live with that.
G West
3 years ago
reallife - re: a post on another thread.
Hope you'll see this - I can't respond in the correct thread since it's already closed.
I reject your accusation out of hand...I was reacting to the character and tone of your own post.
Perhaps you've forgotten what you actually wrote so I'll refresh your memory and you can decide for yourself what sort of 'bias' those words connote....
"The NDP's proposed budget is unrealistic beyond belief. "
I think your own tone belies a certain 'bias' of its own...furthermore, you ought to be clever enough to parse what I was saying with a little more ingenuity - perhaps you'd care to read my post again and remember what happened after the 2001 election - relative to lies and fabrications about a certain set of budgetary results.
Results which were later confirmed by the auditor general to have been entirely accurate.
Your dismissal of the Opposition's estimates under somewhat analogous circumstances reveals, as I suggested, a tendency to draw conclusions based upon thin air and little else.
Furthermore, as I clearly pointed out, the financial situation is now so dire (and so hidden from public view), as I pointed out, that the piper will have to be paid….
Unlike the Liberals, who actually found the exchequer in relatively good shape, a new James government will have mountains of debt and little or no revenue to contend with.