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Why They Joined Occupy Vancouver
Peaceful and boisterous, Vancouver's occupiers joined a global outcry that it's time to redistribute out-of-whack wealth.
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Use the arrows above to meet the occupiers of downtown Vancouver. All photos by Justin Langille.
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Steve Collis (left): "The messy nature of this particular movement, is to get people together and then spend time, weeks, maybe longer, thinking about what we may do... It makes it messier."
Nicholas Perrin (right): "It's hard to make an assessment. There's a lot to be worked out in terms of how there might be real political strategies that come out of this, and not just a communal message. It's a beginning."
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Natasha Blinston: "I'm the everyday, working class, just-out-of-high-school-kid. This is my future and if I don't stand up for it, no one will. I want less greed. I do not want to be $40,000 in debt when I'm finished school. If the world continues on the path that it's going, there will be no world left."
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Lily Arden Bergsma-Rockenbach: "I think everyone is feeling the pressure of what's going on these days. We're built into a system that puts us further into poverty everyday. With the knowledge and technology that we have, we should be able to have free energy and free transportation. People need to let go of their greed."
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Tadros Tadros, with Shake the dog: "Ever since I was quite young, I've had a sense that the emperor had no clothes, that there was something quite amiss with what was said, and what was done, and that there wasn't any real justice. I'd like to see some justice. Shake, he wants justice too."
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Marie Petrucci, with family: "I'm not an expert by any means, but my brother is a fourth-generation farmer in Saskatchewan. My father and my brother are farmers there. The Conservative government, by next year, wants to get rid of the Canadian Wheat Board, which... gives farmers an even playing field for selling their wheat. The biggest thing is, they're not giving the farmers a vote. Let the farmers speak, I say."
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Royanne Mcfarlan: "Anything to do with freedom, as far as I'm concerned, is wonderful. I'm in the Carnival Band, it's a local band out of Britannia. I think the whole element of music is important. It makes a big difference."
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Michelle Heyes, with family: "I'm a flight attendant with Air Canada. I feel that our rights to strike have been taken away. I was at work yesterday, and I gave a 110 per cent. I do what I need to do, and it's disheartening to not be appreciated. We come to work, we do a good job -- respect us. But it's not about that anymore."
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Zehra Naqur (right, with friends): "I like seeing Vancouver really active. This year has been a people's year, people have been taking power into their own hands. I wanted to be a part of that, I wanted to see it. I think it's really good that people are becoming united to speak against corporations who are taking advantage of us, and our government not really doing anything. It's nice to see so many people aware of it, and that they're willing to take action."
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Rhys Williams: "I'm only making $17 a hour. I can't afford to pay my student loans, I'll never own my own house, my student loan is my mortgage. I'm here for my parents. They worked all their lives, paid all their taxes, did everything right. But they're watching everything collapse in front of them, and their own kids look like they won't do as well as (them). That's why I'm here."
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Lucy Lambert: "I'm mostly here because I just really care about this earth. We need to share the earth, share the land. I feel like I care so much about what's going on in the world, but sometimes I feel alone, because I don't realize there are other people that care about what's going on. This just gives me hope."
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Gurinder Sidhu: "I'm a school teacher right now. Our contract's up, expired in the province, and we're in the process of negotiating. It's becoming less and less democratic every year in terms of collective bargaining and working-class rights. I'm teaching law, social justice and senior social studies classes out in Surrey. I'm looking for my students here today."
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Zoe (left): "I don't know if it'll change anything big, but maybe it'll get enough people to speak out and change small things, one at a time."
Jenna (middle): "I didn't know quite what was going to happen today, what it was going to be about. It seems like everyone has their own cause, but they're standing together."
Robyn: "As a young Native person from the Northwest Territories, I think it's my duty to bring a voice for the environment."
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Susan (left): I'm here for my granddaughter. She's two years old. I was here in 1970 demonstrating, and I hope that in 40 years, she'll still have a country to demonstrate for.
Alan (right): Hopefully, the world will be a better place, because right now I despair for my granddaughter.
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Matt Chambers: When I first arrived, I was curious to see if people had the stamina to wade through the establishment of the camp and all that. But it seems like people are going to be here for the long haul. I think the first 48 hours are going to be super telling.
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Adbusters' Kalle Lasn Talks About OccupyWallStreet
The veteran culture-jammer on his role in getting the protest rolling, magic memes, what he would demand, and more.
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Strong labour presence at Occupy Vancouver
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Whole world watching Occupy movement
[Editor's note: Click through the photo essay above to meet some of Vancouver's occupiers, and hear their answers to the question: Why are you here today? Photos by Justin Langille.]
Downtown Vancouver was occupied today, as thousands of demonstrators converged before the steps of the art gallery to protest economic inequality, corporate malfeasance, and an economic and political system that seems to be stacked against the bottom 99 per cent.
Today's Occupy Vancouver demonstrations occurred as part of a worldwide day of action that saw protests erupt in cities across Canada, Europe, the United Kingdom and Asia. It marks the globalization of the Occupy Wall Street campaign, the prolonged anti-corporate protests that have seized sections of lower Manhattan over the last month to ever-increasing media coverage and public interest.
With official headcounts ranging between 2,000 to 3,000 people, today's demonstrations attracted a disparate crowd of seasoned activists, union members, befuddled onlookers and, most commonly, the sympathetic but unaffiliated who came simply to show support.
Not a hippy, not a freak
Sarah Pond, who travelled by ferry from the Sunshine Coast to take in today's movement, is one such supporter. With her baby in tow, Pond held a long cardboard sign.
"Not a hippy, Not a freak," the sign read, listing off half a dozen other epithets that have so far been applied to the Occupy Together protesters. "Just a mom here for a better world for my kids."
Inspired by the Wall Street protests, Pond's reasons for attending the protests are personal and local.
"In my home and in my community, income has been going down while the costs of everything else keeps going up. Meanwhile, social programs are being cut and the largest corporations are posting unprecedented profits," said Pond. "Anyone who dismisses these protests as vague isn't paying attention. There's nothing vague about standing up for what you believe in."
Not just one problem
The Occupy Together protests' lack of obvious focus has provided fodder for its opponents, while proving to be a major source of frustration for journalists struggling to summarize the movement.
The manifold viewpoints were evident amongst the many signs sprinkled throughout the crowd.
Occupied Vancouver Art Gallery. Photo by Justin Langille.
Ranging from the international in focus ("Capitalism Reset") to the provincial ("How can you trust a government that lied about the budget?") to the local ("The only way I can afford to live in Vancouver is in a tent!"), the general focus of the signage was directed at issues of economic inequality and the excesses of the financial sector.
But with animal rights activists, anti-war protesters, organic farming proponents, and a host of other single-issue groups out in full force, there were plenty of exceptions.
"There isn't just one problem," says Tina Mohns, explaining the heterogeneity of opinion waving overhead. "There are many." Mohns was inspired to come to today's protests over concerns about CETA, the pending Canadian-European free trade agreement.
"This is about people showing that they have a voice," she says. "This will be a success if it initiates more momentum, gets people to take even small initiatives, and gives those in power the sense that there is a rumbling out here."
'Seen it all'
Across the street, Dave Ellis cuts a dapper figure in a black suit and hat.
Ellis is the doorman at the swanky Rosewood Hotel Georgia. With an unobstructed view of the art gallery grounds, the improbable epicenter for so many Vancouver's protests and demonstrations, he has "seen it all."
The hotel had locked its front doors, redirecting its guests to the Howe street entrance for security purposes. The windows of the hotel restaurant, one of the more expensive eateries in town, appear to have been blacked out.
"It's understandable why people are angry," says Ellis. Throughout our conversation, he constantly interrupts himself to greet and redirect hotel guests. "It's a bit better here than in the U.S. in terms of banking, but the system clearly isn't working for a lot of people."
Considering the assortment of mismatched signage, he shrugs.
"People always make these things about their own pet issue," says Ellis. But given the systematic nature of the problem -- that the economic and political system is considered by many to be broken -- "maybe in this case, that actually makes sense."
Mic checked, and checked again
Today's demonstration formally began at 10 a.m. this morning with the commencement of the first General Assembly of the Occupy Vancouver movement.
As the Occupy Vancouver organizers devised it, the General Assembly, composed of all protesters present, is where major policy and logistical decisions relating to the demonstration will be made throughout the duration of the campaign.
Though organizers planned the details of the G.A. well into last night, the assembly got off to a bumpy start.
"Mic check!" shouted one of the moderators.
In response to a New York City ordinance that requires a permit for amplified sound devices, the Occupy Wall Street protesters have resorted to "The People's Mic," a coordinated amplification in which a speaker's statements are carried across the crowd in word-of-mouth repetition.
Hence, the call to "Mic Check!" should be met with a vigorous response of the same.
But from the majority of those present, the callout was met with blank stares and baffled silence.
A palpable symbol of people power, the People's Mic was nonetheless forsaken for convenience's sake when, a few minutes later, someone showed up with an electronic microphone.
Process over protest
The importance of the General Assembly highlighted a key disagreement between those who helped to organize today's protests and the majority of those in attendance, many of whom have little experience as activists.
Speaking at last night's meeting of the General Assembly committee, one organizer summarized the former position concisely: "consensus process is the agenda."
This statement was reiterated today by Nora Samaran and Claire Love, both of whom described themselves as experienced activists.
Marchers in Occupy Vancouver. Photo by Justin Langille.
"Process is the point," said Samaran.
Love agreed. "Focusing on process is essential when there is such diversity," she explained. "It involves a tangible acknowledgment of connection."
In other words, by proving that collective decisions can be through consensus, this group hopes to undermine what they see as the "authoritarian" approach at the heart of most political and economic structures.
At the very least, says Anthony Florio, another organizer, "this empowers people to get involved by showing them that their voices can and do make a difference."
But as the G.A. discussion over voting procedure and the definition of consensus continued into the late morning, not all of those in attendance seemed convinced.
"This strikes me as a bit of time waster," said Cathy Martin. An Australian who is visiting her son who lives in Vancouver, Martin was surprised at the focus on process over chanting, singing, and marching.
"You Canadians are so polite."
Jazz hands for democracy
By noon, as the chilled shadows of the square gave way to the sun (and the procedural discussion of the G.A. gave way to speeches), the crowd became more engaged. Orators spoke on topics of economic inequality, social justice, and, more esoterically, the exigencies of the current monetary system.
The audience conveyed their agreement and enthusiasm with claps, shouts, and most notably, fluttering fingers -- the hand gesture that the General Assembly had agreed would indicate assent.
A moderator then suggested that a protest march begin at 1 p.m. This march would take place with the help of the police, he explained.
The people's language: Fluttering fingers show assent. Photo by Justin Langille.
"And while we're at it, let's give it up for officers of the peace!" said the moderator. Fingers fluttered across the audience.
Marching down Hornby to Hastings, before rounding up Howe and back around the art gallery, the protest took on a more familiar tone. Chants were chanted and songs sung.
"We are the 99 per cent!" went one slogan.
"This is what democracy looks like," went another.
And: "This is not a protest."
Situated back at the gallery grounds after the short march, a small brass band picked up. Speeches continued as the afternoon sun warms a crowd noticeably more at ease. Rather than standing stiffly and staring at the microphone on the gallery steps, the thousands milled about. Small groups of police and fire department officers stand in small clusters throughout, sometimes chatting with civilians.
With many of the protesters intending to camp on the art gallery grounds tonight and perhaps indefinitely, it's hard to know how long this demonstration will last -- and in what form.
After today's event, the next General Assembly meeting planned for this evening will likely be as much about redefining the terms of the occupation as about logistics.
Whether Occupy Vancouver will ultimately be seen and ultimately remembered as a protest, a celebration, or an experiment in democracy, at the microphone this afternoon, one of the speakers already started that conversation.
"This is not a protest!" he reminded his fellow demonstrators. "This is a movement!"
And at this, the crowd erupted with fluttering fingers.
[Find similar Tyee stories in: Rights + Justice, Politics, and The Hook blog.] ![[Tyee]](http://thetyee.cachefly.net/ui/img/ico_fishie.png){kind=small}
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49
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carfreecity
32 weeks ago
Occupy Victoria
A fabulous day.
Great facilitators.
Rose Henry spoke about colonialism, the need for respect for aboriginal persons
excellent facilitators at Centennial square
a quick Consensus training and resolutions easily passed during people's assembly
democracy in action on a splendid October day.
Fiat lux
32 weeks ago
Regardless of the predictable
Regardless of the predictable propaganda the controlled media will spout, now that it started, the movement is unstoppable.
The only thing we can hope for is NO VIOLENCE from either side.
Those in power should realize that the days of uncontrolled thievery, in the name of "economics", are over and capitalism, as we know it, is on its way to follow its idiot twin, communism, into the grave.
The most important thing now is to prevent any major collapse that would hurt people and come up with plans to, basically return to a similar system we had 40-50 years ago.
There will always be rich and poor, but there's a limit to any form of exploitation and obscenity against the human race, in the name of religions and economic theories.
No Stevie, Canada is not "free trader country" open to takeovers by international crooks, licenced by governments representing a quarter, or third of the people.
Ed Deak.
seth
32 weeks ago
hijack the political system
I don't get why organizers, who shouldn't be as dumb as the mad a hell but haven't learned to read types that haunt the Occupy and Tea Party movements, don't just organize all these protesters to buy Fascist party memberships on mass and hijack the current political system. Start by taking away the current Fascist movement in Canada's main vehicle -mthe former PROGRESSIVE Conservation Party away from it, and unseat the odious Harper. Do under Harper and his Fascist horde what he did to Joe Clark and the relatively benign Progressive Conservative Party.
Without mass membership buy by environmentalists in our recent BCLiberal convention, the province would still be under the fascist yoke of Gordo's premier designate, Falcon. When compared to Falcon, Christy Clark, could be called a communist.
Similarly the recent success of progressives in Alberta in removing the fascist's there, returning the Progressive Conservative party back to its Progressive roots.
As useful as the occupy movement it is, it needs to focus on getting its members organized into the existing party system as basis for change, and as a vehicle for rebuilding from the ground up.
Then force the 1%'ers to disgorge giving them manual labor jobs working in the fields.
Kreditanstalt
32 weeks ago
You said it...
"...it's time to redistribute out-of-whack wealth..."
What does "redistribute" mean, other than "steal"?
Cloaking it in "fairness", "stakeholder consultation", "equal treatment" or "social justice" does not obscure the fact that this taking of the product of another's labour and risk-taking is being done by force.
That tells me all I need to know about the REAL goals of these protestors. Their standards of living are falling, they want THEIR bailouts, and they want other people to pay for them.
Call it what you will - stimulus spending, infrastructure spending, money-printing, deficit spending - it isn't real, and won't add any real wealth to this economy.
The fact is - the wealth that they claim "the rich" have "stolen" from "the people" never existed in the first place. Wealth can only be created through PRODUCTIVITY.
I guess it really is, as some wag once described Social Credit, "a movement from the bottom" of society...
Jack Black
32 weeks ago
At the Whine-In
Best #OccupyVancouver Tweet:
"Filled up the SUV at Shell Oil $79 headed to McDonalds $7 & Starbucks $6 Parked for $10 #OccupyVancouver Protesting Capitalism - Priceless."
Best #OccupyVancouver Poster:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/67639790@N07/6249403192/
Best [Western?] #OccupyVancouver insta- campground:
http://twitpic.com/718k1h
ron wilton
32 weeks ago
Will the preemy 'get' the message?
Thoreau said that if a man is unable to keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears the music of a different drummer. Let him step to that music, however measured or far away.
I doubt very much that our current preemy can or will do anything to facilitate the governmental changes that are needed to change the effects of corporate influence on their policy decisions.
The corrosive effects of the corporate financed and controlled Campbell era have so deeply penetrated the mindset of her current cabinet and advisors, that only a wholesale change in government will stem the tide.
Even if they do 'get' it, they don't give a damn for what the people that voted for them want or think.
The only sound they hear is the jingle of corporate money pouring ito their party coffers, and that is the music they step to.
snert
32 weeks ago
So, does anybody know?
"Peaceful and boisterous, Vancouver's occupiers joined a global outcry that it's time to redistribute out-of-whack wealth. "
Just how much of the above "out-of-whack wealth" is not being distributed already? Is it all being stashed away somewhere to be buried with it's owner? Is it being burned in the furnaces of the wealthy to keep their mansions warm? I know, wild orgies every day....well maybe not every day.
My point is that there is a group of people that are getting upset about "out-of-whack wealth" without thinking about just what that wealth is actually doing. Nobody except the occasional drug lord sits around on piles of money or swims in their own pool of gold coins like Scrooge McDuck.
So, I'll ask again, does anybody know?
Fiat lux
32 weeks ago
Look up how much of that
Look up how much of that wealth is playing the money markets, tax free and their programmed computers buying and selling stocks every few seconds, while calling it "investment".
The last time I looked close to $2. trillion changed hands in the money markets every day.
Canada adopted the Tobin Tax many years ago, when Paul Martin was finance minister, but never implemented it.
A couple of years ago the highest paid Canadian executive took home $52 or 55 million. Calling it "earnings" of course.
Cutting the wages and hours of workers is "good efficient, competitive economics"
Expecting market gamblers and multimillion dollar executives to pay the same tax rates as their employees is "stealing"
I wrote on a list some years ago that I was paying all my guys the same wages. It caused an outrage, because "workers should receive wages of how much they're worth to the employer." Milton Friedman said so, and it must be right.
We can see the world the theories of Friedman and von Hayek have created. The two world wars and the death camps of Stalin Hitler and Mao killed about 120 million in about 70 years.
Supply side neoclassical capitalism kills the same number in about 4 years with starvation and easily preventable illnesses, while the numbers of millionaires and billionaires increase by 10-15% every year.
Reagan, who forced this crime wave on the world racked up higher debts that all US presidents before him, combined.
BC's debt stood at $33 billion when the NDP were voted out. Now, after ten years of good, conservative fiscal management of the BC Libs, it stands only at over $100. billion and everybody is applauding.
Ed Deak.
Cynic
32 weeks ago
Let's not let the
Let's not let the "exigencies" of the money system continue to be esoteric. I hope the occupy movement will start to ask the simple question, where does money come from? That will really send a chill into the elite.
This short video answers the question well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBJ1kxnVMw4
Barher
32 weeks ago
Kreditanstalt
“The fact is - the wealth that they claim "the rich" have "stolen" from "the people" never existed in the first place. Wealth can only be created through PRODUCTIVITY.”
Perhaps Kreditanstalt was away for the last couple of decades.
Unless I completely misunderstand how“productivity” is being used here, I dosn’t sense to me that Bernie Maddoff, , the dot.com bubble, the sub-prime mortgage fiasco, Enron, Lehman Brothers, Worldcom, Arthur Anderson, ... could be considered productive?
Fiat lux
32 weeks ago
Wealth can not be created in
Wealth can not be created in any way, only taken from others, the environment and from future generations.
The first law of thermodynamics : We can not create anything, only convert resources into other forms.
In any case, what does the word "productivity" mean in this fraudulent system?
Converting resources and selling them. When people are making something for themselves, or for others, without getting paid, that's not "productive".
We've given away probably a million bucks worth of things, while remaining poor, work 7 days a week, but we're not "productive", because no money changes hands. Not even cash. We just enjoy making things and art.
Having lived under every known ideology, I'm still surprised, and shocked, about people's gullibility and what they believe in against all logic.
Ed Deak.
freewilly
32 weeks ago
wish you were here I wish I was there
Not sure if this movement has 'legs' or not but when you attend an event like this it motivates you to do something. Whenever Ive attended similar events I come away feeling not so lonely.
Why not bring your one issue plackard to the protest, wether its GM food, free trade, the teachers agenda.
Where we live in the sticks the economic situation is probably worse. Government cuts to social programs and healthcare have especially hurt the elderly and sick. Yet folks here try to help out their neighbour and there are always volunteers. My biggest concern is that we are losing more people in our small village.
That critical mass of people to kick-start a healthy business climate is long gone. The only people who can afford to live in our west coast town with under 300 people are the rich, fishing lodge owners or some retirees.
Rural BC is dying and we need help, big time.
There are solutions for a growing desparity, I see between the lowermainland and towns in rural BC. Like the growing divide between the rich and the poor, some redistribution of wealth and people needs the attention government.
At the very least our provincial government could pour some marketing dollars into expousing the benifits of living and retiring in a rural BC community. And there are numerous benifits like affordable homes, and rent, almost 0 crime, clean environment etc... Now, living in a small town isnt for everyone but for some folks retired, or on a fixed income its preferable to living in a crowded fish bowl.
Anyways I wonder wether the distribution of people in citys and rural communities has a correlation between the widening gap of rich and poor.
Fiat lux
32 weeks ago
Free....I know what you mean,
Free....I know what you mean, but it is a deliberate plan to depopulate the countryside, and jam people into mega cities to jack up the GDP for total control, and put more money into the pockets of big business, where people have to buy everything.
We've been working toward the highest degree of self sufficiency, virtually all our lives, having seen the depression, the war and postwar years in Europe.
Mention "self sufficiency" to economists, or "conservative" politicians and they have a fit, because it doesn't show up in their idiotic GDP figures.
Now, in our old age, our yearly pension income is something under $25,000. but the way we're set up we never had it better, because we have land and workshops and can grow and make a lot of things we need and can give away.
Right now I'm working on about 40 picture frames for a planned show next Sept in the artist owned Station House Gallery in Williams Lake, where all our paintings, quite a few thousand dollars worth, will be donated to save the gallery,in dire situation because of lottery funds cuts.
Meanwhile I'm driving a 1980 truck, but never been happier
Ed Deak.
suebrady
31 weeks ago
Why I joined
Hi. I am a 60 year woman and I really enjoyed myself yesterday at the Occupy Vancouver event. Thankyou everyone for making it so great. I was very happy that so many people turned out for this. We were told that 5000 people were there. Alot of other media folks were down playing it and saying 2000-3000 people were there. Getting back to Why I joined. I have an average job here and yet I make $8000 a year less than the average Canadian (CPP). As people know metro Vancouver is the most expensive place to live in Canada. Yet, I have heard that B.C. has the lowest wages across Canada. On another note, I worked on the anti-hst campaign. I was shocked at the fraud that was coming from some politicians and the business community. They are so bad that the average citizen can see it now. This has got to stop. We need a change. Trying to shuffle 12% tax (almost 2 billion dollars), without debate, away from big corporations onto us ordinary citizens. Lying in advertisements. Links to the actual agreement between BC and the Federal gov.disappearing. Links on the internet to help people make their own decision about hst were rerouted to government web site. I don't know whether it was our provincial govermnent or the business association that was responsible for that.Videos of town meetings to discuss the issue disappeared from the web for awhile. If we need so much more money for healthcare and education, why did they take 12% tax away from bussines? Why is there no talk about putting that tax back on if we need the money? Why are they talking as if it is our fault? Why are they focusing on us and saying we will have to make some big cuts on our social programs? It is us citizens who voted the government in. They are supposed to work for us not the Busines community. The link between Government and big business should be cut. This has gone too far. Something big needs to be changed. What we have here is not democracy.
jwlaurie
31 weeks ago
Occupy Vancouver
I want to add, I don't believe that anyone expects an actual "re-distribution of current wealth" other than corporate rebates to the social system but rather we expect there to be no more hoarding and phony creation of non existent money and no more corresponding action by Governments of all stripes to facilitate these abuses of justice.
Kudos to commentators like Ed Deak who pretty well sum up the rest of what's wrong.
snert
31 weeks ago
Ed Deak
Wow, not. That's roughly $287.80 per person which may very well be a high number but you are forgetting one thing, Ed, each time that money changes hands a government somewhere gets a cut. The stock market is just a big casino where some people make more than they lose and others lose more than they make. Then there's the brokerage house executives and of course the bank executives that, for the most part are way over compensated but even they must pay taxes and I don't think they constitute even close to 1% of the worlds population or any country's for that matter.
So, that leaves all the other rich people and just what do they do with all of their spare change that's not tied up in the market? Maybe we should find out what they're spending it on before we hang 'em.
Did you go to Alberta for that assessment? I'm not sure I know anyone in BC outside of a couple of dummies in the Fraser Institute that might believe that.
igbymac
31 weeks ago
ron wilton
Agreed, ron wilton, but it is not just the leaders who are confused. Clearly what we have is a very dumbed-down citizenry across the board. Whether it is the second-rate people running the government, or the people on the street who are upset with the way of the world, we are grossly out of touch with our humanity. We carry on "as if there were safety in stupidity alone".
How can we effect change when we do not change ourselves? We rarely take stock of the lessons learned from the past, and we seem too preoccupied with frivolities to bother figuring out what is important in life. But how can we when we are herded into urban centres, driven through training institutions to shape our minds, and bombarded with debt incurred to live in a false paradise?
I read all the comments of the people in the photolog provided and one thing stood out: our aim is far too low. We don't even conjure up a different world in our minds anymore, just some deckchair changes on the Titanic. Our minds are deadened. "Things do not change, we change. Sell your clothes and keep your thoughts".
(both quotes from Walden by Thoreau)
Cynic
31 weeks ago
The elite's financial system
The elite's financial system is designed to inexorably transfer wealth into their pockets. It's structural and pretty simple really. They print the money fresh for our loans, but they want interest too. However, no money is printed to cover the added interest debt. And so we slave, and stagger from one financial crisis to the inevitable next one. Their system works exactly as intended.
Btw Ed, Buckminster Fuller defined wealth as the resources of the planet multiplied by the intelligence of the people. How does that fit with your ideas?
Fiat lux
31 weeks ago
Snert...The NDP inherited a
Snert...The NDP inherited a $20 billion debt, which they increased by $13 to $33 billion.
The BCLibs officially increased it to $53.4 billion, but they don't account the P3s as "debts", but as "contractual obligations" the public still has to pay for, which increased the last known figure to $99.2 billion.
If the public has to pay higher interests on the borrowing, plus interests on the interests, plus the corporations' profits, how is it "cheaper" and why isn't it accounted as debt?
I wish I could have ran my businesses with this kind of accounting. Otherwise known as fraud.
Cynic....My respect to Buckie Fuller, and I don't argue with his definition, except mine is simpler and anybody over the age of 10 should understand it. Except politicians and economists.
English was my 5th and I have to keep wordings simple
Ed Deak
Cool Hand
31 weeks ago
Ed Deak
Well, not exactly. Did Adrian Dix state these numbers?
From BC Public Accounts:
March 31, 1991: $17.3 billion
March 31, 2001: $33.8 billion (+95%)
And yes, GAAP accounting rules came into effect after 2001, which is much more transparent. For example, the revenue for $2 billion in BC natural gas sales/drilling rights can no longer be stated in one year but over 10 years, unlike AB and SK.
And under GAAP, future contractual obligations also have to be stated from annual office space, leased vehicles, to P-3 and IPP obligations. That was not a requirement in the 1990's and yes the NDP guvmint also entered into IPP obligations and one P-3 as well IIRC.
Back to Occupy Vancouver. What do these guys want? From the pics a strange rag-tag group that even includes the 9-11 conspiracy theorists.
How would they accomplish their goals - With an NDP guvmint? Ya gotta be kidding.
Look at the Nova Scotia NDP guvmint:
1. Increased the HST rate from 12% to 15%;
2. Healthcare cutbacks by 3%; (announced last week)
3. Education cutbacks by 22%;
Is this progressive?
Look at the Manitoba NDP guvmint:
1. Reduced corporate taxes from 17% to 12% eventually going to 10%; (same as BC)
2. Reduced the Small Business Tax rate from 5% to 0%; (lower than BC's 2%)
3. Eliminated the corporate capital tax; (same as BC)
4. Manitoba Hydro entering into expensive IPP contracts; (same as BC)
Almost the highest poverty rate in Canada as a result.
Is this progressive?
Is the answer to these Occupy Vancouver supporters also an NDP guvmint based upon the Nova Scotia and Manitoba NDP guvmint experience? - Seemingly more regressive than BC's guvmint!
Perhaps they should start up their won Die Linke party like in Germany, which has many looney left supporters supporting such causes as a new Berlin Wall and a new Stasi secret police. Sounds like such a political vehicle could fit the mold.
Cool Hand
31 weeks ago
Talk the Talk - But Not Walk the Walk?
BCGEU president Daryl Walker said that its union members belong to the 99% who are not benefiting from the current political and economic system.
Well, the BCGEU pension plan alone includes $8 billion in these equity holdings:
Top 10 Canadian Equities Holdings
Royal Bank of Canada
Toronto Dominion Bank
Suncor Energy Incorporated
Bank of Nova Scotia
Canadian Natural Resources
Research in Motion
Barrick Gold Corporation
Canadian National Railway
Potash Corporation of Saskatchewan
Teck Resources
Top 10 U.S. Equities Holdings
Exxon Mobil Corporation
Microsoft Corporation
General Electric
Wells Fargo & Company
Proctor and Gamble
Bank of America
JPMorgan Chase
Apple Incorporated
Johnson & Johnson
IBM
Top 10 International Equities Holdings
Royal Dutch Shell
BHP Billiton Limited
Nestle S.A.
HSBC Holdings
Rio Tinto PLC
BP PLC
Samsung Electronics
Banco Santander
Telfonica S.A.
Roche
The same companies that Occupy Vancouver supporters are targetting as greedy. Why does't the BCGEU just "talk the talk" and "walk the walk" and have these equity holdings liquidated and transfer the balance into a credit union earning interest at 1% - 2%?
They won't. Because of GREED.
pneves
31 weeks ago
They are right the system is broken.
They are right the system is very broken. I believe what these protesters are doing is a good thing. The only way to fix the system is through more democracy. And this is a prime example of this. The system is stacked against the majority. If this movement continues to grow the powers that be will no longer be able to ignore them.
We've seen in this province the power that a democratic movement can have when we voted on the referendum to cancel the HST. The powers that be should be for warned. Most places that such movements have taken place are not able to make what they are talking about happen. But in BC that is not so much. Here we have the power to change things. We have referendum laws that make it possible. Just not easy
Fiat lux
31 weeks ago
Nice figures , Cool, but you
Nice figures , Cool, but you forgot the liabilities under the P3 racket. I know they're not debts but "contractual obligations" but we still have to pay for them through the nose.
Is it true that they're around $80 billion ?
Reminds me of the time when Wacky Bennett shot a flaming arrow into a pile of papers on a raft on Lake Okanagan and declared BC debt free.
The arrow didn't work and somebody had to swim out with a lighter to set the pile on fire and whatever debt was left Wacky called "contingent liabilities"
But I still wish we were back in those bad old days, before "wealth creation", when thousands of businesses were opening up, employing people with decent wages in fulltime jobs, working people could afford to buy their own homes in Vancouver, most of my guys had one, one breadwinner per family was enough, there were hundreds of privately owned sawmills, the cancer rate was 2%, we could cross the border into the US with a wave of the hands of the border guards and the US wasn't held up by the communists buying their bonds to keep them aloft..
What happened to our "wealth creating" system
In any case, when the Occupy marches are going on in 950 cities around the world (Global TV), the days of the present crime wave against humanity and the environment are counted. As we counted them down for their brother Soviets.
Ed Deak.
Jeffrey J.
31 weeks ago
Fantastic coverage Tyee
This is great coverage. The Tyee has kept alive a sense of independence and democracy for many years (as have rabble.ca, Public Eye; Common Sense Canadian and others).
Now, we are privileged to see citizens stepping forward to speak out in favour of the 99%.
Where this will take us, we don't know. But we can hope (and pray) that it may lead to social justice. This is a lot to ask for in the midst of a deeply unjust society. It certainly won't come easy. The elite, no matter how quiet they currently appear, have NO intention of changing the structure of the totally unfair system we live in. So we will begin with a waiting match.
Hopefully to be followed by more and more people willing to step forward to change a rigged, unfair system based on deceit and privilege and trickery.
Time will tell.
I look forward to more coverage of this very courageous movement.
A Drop in the Bucket
31 weeks ago
Low corporate tax rates
Before Bankruptcy, Conservatives Touted Ireland As Model For U.S.
By Pat Garofalo on Dec 2, 2010 at 1:30 pm
ThinkProgress intern Riley Waggaman contributed research for this post.
During the 2008 Presidential campaign, Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) praised the Irish economy for its low corporate tax rate and said that if the U.S. would just follow suit, companies would “be able to create jobs, increase your business, make more investment.” And McCain was far from the only conservative making the “Celtic Tiger” argument that Ireland’s low tax rates were a shining, successful model of conservatism in action. Some examples:
– Dan Mitchell (then of the Heritage Foundation, now at The Cato Institute), July 2002:
Ireland already has shown that tax cuts are a recipe for prosperity. Thanks to Reagan-style tax-rate reductions, including a corporate income tax rate of just 10 percent, Ireland has become the “Celtic Tiger” and is now the European Union’s second richest country.
– Sean Dorgan, The Heritage Foundation, June 2006:
While economic success over the past 15 years can be ascribed to a range of domestic and international factors, it was not a fluke. Ireland has long had, and intends to sustain, low tax rates to attract investment. Its current 12.5 percent corporate tax rate evolved from the zero rate on export sales in the 1950s and the 10 percent rate on manufacturing and some internationally traded services introduced in 1980.
– Chris Edwards, The Cato Institute, March 2007:
However, the key to Ireland’s success has been its excellent tax climate for business. In 1980, Ireland established a corporate tax rate for manufacturing of just ten percent. That low rate was subsequently extended to high-technology, financial services, and other industries. More recently, Ireland established a flat 12.5 percent tax rate on all corporations — one of the lowest rates in the world, and just one-third of the U.S. rate. Low business tax rates have helped Ireland attract huge inflows of foreign investment.
– Jurgen Reinhoudt, American Enterprise Institute, October 2007:
The real credit belongs to Irish fiscal policy. Beginning in the late 1980s, successive Irish governments pursued vital spending cuts and tax relief…At present, Ireland has a 12.5 percent corporate tax rate, which has made it a magnet for powerhouse firms.
A Drop in the Bucket
31 weeks ago
Led to Ireland`s over 1000% Debt to GDP
– Former Gov. Mitt Romney (R-MA), FOX News, January 2008:
MITT ROMNEY: Well, you know, the — the experience of other countries in the world is some guide. You take a nation like Ireland, for instance. They cut their tax rate. I believe it’s less than half of the tax rate in most of the other European nations. And they have become — well, they have moved from a basket-case economy to a booming economy. Jobs have been flowing into Ireland.
– Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) and Sean Hannity, FOX News, October 2008:
MCCAIN: No. But you know what, Sean? You’re going to go on my first overseas trip. And I think it might be to Ireland.
HANNITY: Listen, you were right about their tax rates. They did lower tax rates on businesses and it’s been a big economic boom for them.
But now that Ireland’s economy has crashed down around it, those on the right are claiming that Ireland’s woes are due to big government run amok. As Jonathan Chait mocked, “Sadly, the Irish fiscal crisis has prompted a quick realization [amongst conservatives] that Ireland was not actually the free market state we thought it was”:
– Dan Mitchell, Cato Institute, November 2010:
There are lots of lessons to learn from Ireland’s fiscal/economic/financial crisis. There was too much government spending. Ireland also had a major housing bubble. And some people say that adopting the euro (the common currency of many European nations) helped create the current mess.
– Nicole Gelinas, The National Review, November 2010:
A big reason for Ireland’s current sub-crisis is that in the fall of 2008, the nation guaranteed all of its bank liabilities. This fateful choice was not a market decision, but a government one. One could make the case that had Ireland let its bank bondholders go, as Iceland did, Ireland would be better off today. Unlike Greece, Ireland has competitive tax rates, an English-speaking population, and a workforce that desires work.
– Margot Crouch, The Heritage Foundation, March 2010:
One of the reasons for the flight of companies from Ireland and other European nations is the potential for a common tax base across the European Union which forced Ireland to raise its taxes on businesses significantly to be more consistent with high-tax European norms.
– Reihan Salam, The National Review, November 2010:
Let me say that I’m quite willing to believe that an excessively progressive income tax in Ireland exacerbated underlying political economy problems.
A Drop in the Bucket
31 weeks ago
Ireland makes Greece`s debt look like pocket change
Though far from being the sole cause of Ireland’s economic calamity, its very low-tax environment turned it into a favorite tax haven and led to an influx of “business” that wasn’t really business at all: it was just companies like Google shuffling paper through Ireland to dodge taxes.
Ireland then experienced the same housing bubble that plagued both the U.S. and mainland Europe, and its banks, the biggest of which were twice the size of the nation’s GDP, went bust. As Peter Boone and Simon Johnson wrote, “Simply put, the Irish miracle was a mirage driven by clever use of tax-haven rules and a huge credit boom that permitted real estate prices and construction to grow quickly before declining ever more rapidly.”
Now, Ireland is undertaking draconian austerity measures, including raising personal income taxes by 1.9 billion and cutting the minimum wage, in order to receive an 85 billion bailout. So as Fortune’s Dan Primack wrote, “Got to wonder if McCain would like to recall his original message, or if he still considers Ireland to be the beacon of federal tax policy. And, if the latter, I’d assume he also believes that raising personal income taxes [is] a smart way to deal with staggering budget deficits.”
A Drop in the Bucket
31 weeks ago
Debt over $2 trillion dollars
Dublin City Centre
Rank 48th
Currency 1 Euro = 100 cent(s)
Fiscal year Calendar year
Trade organisations EU, WTO and OECD
Statistics
GDP $164.6 bn (2010)[1]
GDP growth 2.8% (Q1 2011 est.)[2]
GDP per capita $37,700 (2009 est.)[3]
GDP by sector agriculture (5%), manufacturing (46%), services (49%) (2002)
Inflation (CPI) -0.88% (June 2010)
Population
below poverty line 4.2%[4]
Gini index 30.7 (2008)
Labour force 2.154 million (2006)[5]
Labour force
by occupation services (64%), manufacturing (29%), agriculture (8%) (2005)
Unemployment 14.0 % (August 2011 est.)[6]
Average gross salary 2,764 € / 3,731 $, monthly (2006)[7]
Average net salary 2,025 € / 2,733 $, monthly (2006)[8]
Main industries steel, lead, zinc, silver, aluminium, barite, and gypsum mining processing; food, brewing, textiles, clothing; chemicals, pharmacology; machinery, rail transportation equipment, passenger and commercial vehicles, ship construction and refurbishment; glass and crystal; computer software, tourism
Ease of Doing Business Rank 9th[9]
External
Exports $108.6 billion (2009 est.)
Export goods machinery and equipment, computers, chemicals, pharmaceuticals; live animals, animal products
Main export partners US 20.52%, Belgium 17.78%, UK 16.31%, Germany 5.66%, France 5.56%, Spain 4.19% (2009)
Imports $63.12 billion (2009 est.)
Import goods data processing equipment, other machinery and equipment, chemicals, petroleum and petroleum products, textiles, clothing
Main import partners UK 35.28%, US 16.87%, Germany 6.76%, Netherlands 5.86%, France 4.76% (2009)
Gross external debt $2.287 trillion (30 June 2009)
A Drop in the Bucket
31 weeks ago
Led to Ireland`s over 1000% Debt to GDP
The Finance Dublin Debt Clock of Ireland ticks on still
See the Republic of Ireland's national debt mount up, a measure of the legacy the Irish Government is in the process of bequeathing to the children of Ireland:
€ 115,462,347,736
The FINANCE DUBLIN Irish Government Debt Clock was set at midnight on June 30th 2009, when it was €65.278 billion It updates the latest figures for the National Debt of Ireland. The clock is re-set periodically, to reflect changes in debt and deficit estimates from the Dept of Finance, the National Treasury Management Agency (NTMA), and independent economists. For further background on what the debt figures mean click here.
(6th October 2011): 'Ireland has already restructured its debt'
'Ireland has already restructured its debt' is the title of an important analysis of the Irish debt situation, published today by NCB Stockbrokers. "Assuming Ireland can maintain the average interest rate at 5.2%, the primary surplus at 3.1p.c. and assuming the economy can grow at a real GDP growth rate of 2.5 p.c. Ireland would actually be reducing its debt to GDP ratio going forward by approximately 1.9 p.c. per annum", it says. The full report can be found: HERE
(3rd October 2011): Is it time for a Government statement on Ireland's exchange rate policy?
Click here to read more (Editorial in the latest issue of Finance Dublin)
(5th August 2011):Nineteen months and nineteen days...the length of time it took Ireland to go from AAA rating to IMF bailout
Food for thought on the United States' loss of its triple A rate is underlined by the speed of Ireland's subsequent downgrades, folllowing its first downgrade from Triple A status in March 2009.....
_________________________________________
Irish debt clock live, click here.
http://www.financedublin.com/debtclock.php
A Drop in the Bucket
31 weeks ago
The US Debt Clocks, all the debt clocks
http://www.usdebtclock.org/
Check out the very last debt clock at this link...
Every citizen in the USA has debt liabilities of a staggering...
Over $1 million dollars each!
Yikes
realisticman
31 weeks ago
Low Irish Corporate Taxes are Working!
...but the Irish:
"But when Ireland went cap in hand to the euro zone for help, it held to one principle: Its low, 12.5% corporate tax rate was not to be bargained away, no matter the pressure exerted by high-tax France, and a German chancellor eager to eliminate competition for inbound investment. That's not the only reason Ireland is now in a position to claim that it has met the terms of the bailout, and is entitled to have its interest rate reduced. It is important both in itself and as a symbol of Ireland's determination to grow out of its problem.
Ireland has sold off assets worth €2 billion ($2.7 billion), almost halfway to its agreed target of €5 billion of sales. But it is pressing the troika to allow it to invest some of the proceeds to grow its economy, most notably by rolling back the personal-tax increases it had to impose to get access to bailout funds.
Exports are up 40%, much of the increase due to sales by multinational firms that invest in the country because of its pro-investment climate and an educated, English-speaking work force that prefers jobs to riots.
Yields on Irish bonds have trended down—from 14% this past summer for 10-year bonds, to 7.6%—while those in other heavily indebted countries have risen. ..."
Wall Street Journal, October 17, 2011
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204479504576634763636920524.html
Frank
31 weeks ago
Luke
"Almost the highest poverty rate in Canada as a result."
As a result of cutting taxes I believe is what you inferred.
Best comment you've ever posted.
I kind of feel like the master when grasshopper finally snatched the pebble from his hand. Brings a tear to my eye to see everything I've told you over the years is finally sinking in.
I'd normally reply now by telling you what your dear Liberal leaders say about the protests and how they support it but I'm just too happy.
A Drop in the Bucket
31 weeks ago
Basketcase of Europe, Ireland
Ireland: Europe's Biggest Basket Case
Posted Oct 07, 2010 07:30am EDT by Daniel Gross in Banking, Emerging Markets
Related: XLF, FXE, IRE, FAZ, INTC, MSFT, C
The race of the title for "Biggest Basket Case in Europe" is a tight one. There's Iceland, with its wholesale bankruptcy. There's Greece, unwilling (or unable) to collect taxes and dependent on a European bailout. There's Spain, now grappling with 20-percent employment. How about England, the once high-flying economy laid low by a banking meltdown?
But the biggest basket case in Europe may be Ireland.
"Ireland over the last quarter century has gone from rags to riches and then halfway back to rags again," says David Lynch, author of When the Luck of the Irish Ran Out: The World's Most Resilient Country and Its Struggle to Rise Again.
In the wake of a spectacular housing and credit collapse that required an expensive bailout, Ireland faces a 2010 budget deficit that amounts to a whopping 32 percent of gross domestic product. With growth faltering - Ireland's central bank this week said it expects the island nation's economy to grow just 0.2 percent in 2010 -- the ratings agency Fitch on Wednesday downgraded Ireland's already-troubled credit rating.
Lynch, a longtime global economics correspondent for USA Today who is preparing to join Bloomberg, tells me in the accompanying clip that Ireland's problems are an echo of the issues that ravaged the U.S. economy.
"Ireland had incredibly reckless banks, coupled with weak regulators and a complicit political class," he said. "The result was a housing and credit bubble that dwarfs even what we've had here in the U.S., with a bailout tab that would make Tea Party advocates run for the hills."
http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/article/535482/Ireland%3A-Europes-Biggest-Basket-Case
igbymac
31 weeks ago
property of the state
In our capitalist world of governance, murder and over-running foreign soils is part of the economic policy.
I refuse to be part of it. For that fundamental and conscionable reason alone, I refuse to endorse the state particularly through the ballot box, and do all I can to not associate myself with it.
If you want 'change' and not more of the same, you must, individually, be 'change' first.
Luck
31 weeks ago
WE SAY NO TO GMO
IT IS ABOUT TIME THE POOR PART OF THE ECONOMY HAS STOOD UP AND BE COUNTED.
99% POOR.
GOOD WORK MEN AND WOMEN.
OUR PRESENT GOVERNMENTS WORLDWIDE ARE A BUNCH OF DUMMIES.
I WOULD NOT GET ANY GOV ELECTS TO HELP ME ARRANGE A CHURCH PICNIC.
OUR OWN GOV IN CANADA IS A FAILURE BUT THEY ARE HIDING ALL THE INFORMATION.
FAILURE AT JOB CREATION METHODS TO STIMULATE AN ECONOMY THAT HAS EVERYTHING BUT LEADERSHIP FROM THE VERY PEOPLE ELECTED.
HEY THERE GETTING PAID TO OCCUPY AS SEAT AND THATS IT.
LETS NOT LET THEM GET AWAY WITH THIS ANY LONGER PLEASE.
STAND UP AND FIGHT NOW OR FRO.
Skywalker
31 weeks ago
Cool Hand's figures
By March 31, 1991 the socreds were still in control. The provincial election that year was in October so there was not much of the fiscal year left. Nor did the NDP introduce any new programs until the following year. The figure does not include the $2.4 billion budget deficit of that same (1991) year. That is about as close to $20 billion in accumulated debt as you can get. Cool Hand is always sparse with the truth.
A Drop in the Bucket
31 weeks ago
Sparse?
Puke is an effing liar and conman!
PERIOD...And he is the owner of the BriangoughandStraightgoodsisawesome web site.
He is a child, a pouty lip syncing child with no real ability, he can`t write, he can`t narrate, he can`t hold a real conversation.
And he can`t get anyone to read his effing blog.
And still David Beers lets him puke on the Tyee
A Drop in the Bucket
31 weeks ago
The Real Cool Hand
The real evil behind Luke Skywalker is here!
http://powellriverpersuader.blogspot.com/2010/10/luke-skywalkerluke-cool-handbradpublic.html
borg
31 weeks ago
A Drop in the Bucket
I agree 100% with of your evaluation (maybe a little too kind) of Cool Hand. Evil,liar and conman have proven to be synonymous with every BC Liberal and their supporters.
G West
31 weeks ago
Lukie
What did the Auditor General say to Kevvie the Finance Minister about HIS accounting methods?
Please, remind us?
EDITED FOR BAITING ANOTHER COMMENTER. GWEST, IT IS TIRING TO HAVE TO REMIND YOU OF THE RULES AFTER ALL THIS TIME. YOU ARE BLOCKED FOR TWO WEEKS - MODERATOR
And, can we have a 'real' accounting of what the sale of all those gas leases has meant for the treasury while we're at it?
What's the royalty rate Luke? And what happens before ANY of these companies (even the ones bought by the Chinese) have to pay one penny of royalty to the province?
Please, Lukie, you're on top of these things - let us in on how we're actually doing in the gas exploitation area?
Frank
31 weeks ago
Productivity?
The US economy has more than doubled in size over the last few decades. That was due to increased productivity and increased population.
However, wages for men fell by 28% in the same period.
Increased productivity only makes the rich, richer. The gains due to productivity do not increase the real wages of the worker.
Cool Hand
31 weeks ago
Frank
Ahhhhh... but need I remind you that during the 1990's NDP guvmint, BC had one of the highest tax regimes (personal and corporate) in North America and still had Canada's highest poverty rate?
Even after the the reduction in personal/corporate taxes in BC after 2001 (not much different than the Manitoba NDP), the BC poverty rate fell?!
Thanks for pointing out my error.The date should read March 31, 1992.
But that brings up another point that has been posted here previously. Then NDP finance minister Glen Clark added about another $1.5 billion to the provincial books planned to be expended in the following year to make the Socreds 1991 fiscal year look much worse than it was in order to let the Socreds "wear it".
Ethical? I dunno.
Frank
31 weeks ago
Luke Luke Luke
Luke : "Ahhhhh... but need I remind you that during the 1990's NDP guvmint, BC had one of the highest tax regimes (personal and corporate) in North America and still had Canada's highest poverty rate?"
Umm, no.
The child poverty rate in BC was below the Cdn average for almost all of the NDP decade. It was after the Liberals took over that we became #1 in Canada. Something to be proud of if you're a Liberal.
In 1996 for example BC had the 2nd highest level of median income, 2nd only to Ontario.
Luke : "Even after the the reduction in personal/corporate taxes in BC after 2001 (not much different than the Manitoba NDP), the BC poverty rate fell?! "
Umm, no again. According to the report caleld Campaign 2000 by First Call which used StatsCan data the child poverty rate in BC was higher in both absolute terms and compared to the Cdn average than it had been under the NDP. Peaking at almost 25% in 2003. Under the NDP the peak was in 1997 and yet that number was still below the Liberal peak and below the Cdn average. The Liberal peak was well above the Cdn average of around 17% in 2003.
If you like children living in poverty stay in your hottub and vote Liberal.
zalm
31 weeks ago
GWest busted?
For two weeks?
Sorry, for me the bigger crime is playing fast and loose with the facts, as Kuhl Hound is prone to do. Responding to ignorance is what we do best around here. That's the whole purpose of the site.
And some commenters are so willing to give us the practice they'll stretch the truth and omit facts to suit their cause.
Well, perhaps I need a break from Tyee too. Mebbe I'll come back in two weeks... and look for a new "Ignorant" button I can push on some of these posts, like the one Kuhlie posted above:
"They won't. Because of GREED."
No, Kuhlie, it's because of fiduciary responsibility. Look up the definition, and just try to imagine what the world would be like if everyone, including corporations did theirs.
You troll, you....
nadatodo
31 weeks ago
I Don't Get It
I don't get the purpose of Occupy Vancouver. The "movement" birthed from the States is more focused and in many ways, specific to the US. We are not in the same financial situation as our neighbours to the south, nor are we struggling with the idea of bankruptcy. Now, that doesn't mean we don't have our share of problems...but to take part in a movement, and see an array of signs, in support of an array of movements, means there is no focus to Vancouver's protest. Until shit hits the fan here with a majority affected, and we can find our collective voice, our small gatherings are interest groups with a megaphone. I'm not against protesting for what matters to you...but I think the Occupy movement outside of the States is just sentiment rather than a piece from the same pie. All governments are corrupt. That's not to say everyone in the government is corrupt. Some people are assholes, others not. This game of politics isn't new. Yes, it's unfair. Yes, oligarchies and nepotism reign...that doesn't make a unified movement though. And while I think social media is amazing for spreading info to other parts of the world...I do think that sometimes we're made equal but not the same.
Frank
31 weeks ago
nadatodo
What makes you think Canada isn't suffering severe financial problems?
We have a very high rate of debt. A level that is based on people using the equity in their homes to fund their standard fo living.
If home prices fall the crash here will be worse than in the US since our debt levels are higher.
The jobs people are able to get are not paying them enough to cover what they need. Considering that productivity has increased rapidly over the last few decades wages should have increased too. Instead that wealth flowed to the top.
MkumbaJoe
31 weeks ago
Hats off to Van protesters for not giving way to hate mongering
Hats off to Vancouver protesters for not giving way to hate mongering. Below is evidence of a (probably tiny) hateful fringe present at Occupy rallies.
A very brief excerpt from an essay from Rabbi Abraham Cooper and historian Dr. Harold Brackman on anti- Semitism on the fringes of the Occupy Wall Streeters…
=
"…Unfortunately, the hateful fringe of the Occupy Wall Street Movement is now also coast-to-coast, though you might not know it from the mainstream media. Today’s hate propaganda from the New York protests has gone viral. This includes placards identifying “Wall Street Jews” as “Hitler’s Bankers,” and angry shouts of “Kill/Screw Google Jews.”
sicntired
31 weeks ago
Social engineering
With the majority that magically appeared out of a .01% increase in the popular vote,the Harper evangelicals have begun a social engineering experiment that will give corporations all the power.Eliminating the payments to parties because they are flush with corporate donations.Appointing conservative bag men and flacks and hacks to plumb positions world wide and stacking the senate with same.Now they have two supreme court appointments.Back to work legislation before a strike even starts in every dispute so far.Harper is a petty megalomaniac with a taste for vengeance.He allows no dissent and it would seem will countenance no debate either.Admitted liars who claim Canadians don't care about trifles like honesty,the conservatives forgive all and attack everything.They practice the politics of hate and use our differences against us each in turn.It was no small thing that Quebec was shut out of the mega billions in ship building.Vote for any other party and you will get nothing.Just look at the cash from the G8-20.All to conservative ridings.This will be years in the making and decades to fix.If we weren't taking part in the occupy wall street movement it would mean all debate is dead.That's how Harper and his pet police forces would like it.They do provide protest zones.That's what they consider a fair approach.
sicntired
31 weeks ago
It's hard to understand
How anyone can defend the way the very few are rigging the system for the profit of the 1%.Harper, has corporate donors and so he eliminates the money to the other parties.He can't ram things through so he loads the senate.He loses a court case and appoints two supreme court judges.He orders people back to work in every labor dispute before a strike date.He muzzles climate scientists.He hides things from his own caucus.Wealth has been steadily redistributed for the last 12 years.If Harper had been in power pre 2008 we would have harmonized our banking system with the US and be in worse shape than they are.He has increased military spending astronomically.He prorogued parliament twice to keep his desperate grasp on power because he would not listen.Our social safety net is being torn apart and our health care is being starved to institute private/public healthcare.He took Canada out of everything and changed it to Royal.The only dissent in this country is the occupy wall street movement.This is now a country that bans war resistors and welcomes war criminals to make speeches for hundreds of thousands of dollars.If you want to protest at any event they make protest zones and protest free zones.Guess which zones are furthest from the action?