It is hardly a new or forgotten phenomenon - science is a tool - like religion - to serve a political agenda. Have we progressed? I'd argue the one race that feels superior and destined to rule (in an inhumane fashion) are the Homo Sapiens - who effectively squashed the Neanderthals - the gentler of the two species. I'm sure the scientists who help build nuclear bombs or bioterrorism agents - or Agent Orange - go to sleep in their academic worlds - protected by the virtue of not partaking in the decision of how their information is ultimately used. There certainly is plenty of racial, religious, economic, political, and ethnic acts of power and inhumanity being perpetuated today. The ideologues use sweet words - like spreading democracy under the barrel of a gun and drop of a bomb - for freedom loving people (who are superior and thus justified in their acts of terror). Ironically, history has come and bit us in the rear end - looking at Israel today, we have to ask ourselves does ethnic entitlement come into play in the ravages occurring therein?

There are still economists struggling to defend the "personhood" of corporations despite growing evidence that they are in fact nothing more than psychotic schemes for looting. Apparently because they're so profitable and so powerful.

Even though many measures could be put in place to add social responsibility to them, and tend to remove that psychotic strain of absolute inhuman ruthlessness they got from that piece of legalistic mumbo jumbo. I guess if enough money and prestige is on offer, scientists can be persuaded to justify any convenient foolishness.

Now there's a parallel myth to fit the bill. Honestly, the more I look at contemporary social planning, the more I'm reminded of Germany in the late twenties.

Well put Bailey.
Haven't read the book. On the other hand, based on this review, I can't help but wonder why it seems (based on this review at least) to have ignored the role of Eugenics in the Nazi ethos. Those 'scientific' ideas started in the 19th century with Darwin's cousin Francis Galton and I'd say they are, in their own way, still alive and well today. They took a hit because Nazi scientists under Rudïn adopted them in such an appallingly thoroughgoing way but one shouldn't forget that the whole compromised 'scientific' exercise was active all across the US - building on 'evidence' from the IQ tests administered en masse for the first time to recruits for the US Army in World War I. I think it even played a part in Margaret Sanger's early campaign arguments for widely available contraception - can't have those inferior races breeding like rabbits! Even the labels tagged on immigrants to North America during those years have the flavour of superiority about them.

Well put both Avicenna and Bailey.

Our view of ourselves, even as a species, as well as the socio-political and economic ideas set and presumptions we genuflect to, are today nearly all being sorely tested, and in my view anyway, being found wanting on nearly every front.

The degree of popular hypocrisy is astounding. Makes one despair for the future of our species even, sometimes.

Hear! Hear!, Avicinna and Bailey. What is conveniently forgotten is that all the basic foundation elements of Nazi ideology came from the so-called democracies. "Race science" from France (Gobineau) and the US, Eugenics from England (Galt) , political anti-semitism from France (Maurras and Barre) , social darwinism from the US and England (Huxley), plus the model of the terrorist mass movement of the KKK and the Orange Lodge. Probably 95% of the European population in Western Europe and the Americas were racists and anti-semites circa 1910. I have a medical text published in 1905 in Chicago which reads like the worst sort of Nazi racial propaganda. But this sort of thing was the norm.

Persky writes: "In our supposedly more sophisticaed times, we have everything from Christian and Islamic fundamentalists with their apocalyptic versions of the end of the world..."

My apologies to Persky, if this omission was perhaps a mere typo, but one might consider adding Jewish fundamentalism to his short list of Christian and Islamic fundamentalism--and I invite everyone to google the latter in order that it is fairly represented among the evils to which Persky incompletely refers.

Good point Truman:
I guess you're also aware of the stirrings of Armageddon in radical Islamic thought - particularly in Iran - concerning the return of the lost Imam (or hidden Imam) or whatever.

Ahmadinejad has apparently (according to Bernard Lewis who's hardly an unbiased observer) been making a lot of apocalyptic noise about the 22 of August.

That almost qualifies as one of Bobb999's destructive 23’s don’t you know.

Bad Religion serves bad ideas too!

Stan Persky is such an astute critic – today’s New Agers and the last century’s fascist philosophers are dipping into the same well for a lot of their ideas. A number of researchers have drawn a parallel between today’s “human potential movement,” and the underpinnings of Nazi notions of a new society, and Ayn Rand’s creepy mix of capitalist ideas, metaphysics, and self-realization. Or as the New Agers say, “self-actualization.”

Like today’s New Agers, members of early 20th century groups like the Thule Society incorporated occult ideas – astrology, face reading, telepathy – along with snippets of Eastern philosophies from Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. They wove this combo of magic and spirituality-lite into 19th century ideas from German Romanticism about the mysterious power of nature. It wasn’t much of a leap for these nature mystics to embrace the idea of “Aryans” -- a mythical race that had supposedly evolved from some ancient Indo-European strain of people who became that tall, blonde, blue-eyed ideal for Nazis and supermodels.

They attempted to establish their own superiority via racism, but only because that was an acceptable yardstick in that era. Today’s fascists, I notice, tend to assert their own superiority by calling themselves “enlightened.”

Yes, Alcibiades, all THREE religions are equally nasty in their fundamentalist incarnations. I meant to say "former" instead of "latter," but I think the idea comes through anyway. And whenever I think of "racism" I always get this little gem wandering back into my consciousness: Deuteronomy Chap.7 verse 6

"For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all the people that are upon the face of the earth."

Oh, it's from the Torah, by the way. Talk about bad religion! How much suffering has this sinister chauvinistic invention caused, I wonder.

You are right Truman. But, to be fair, the Yahweh of the Torah is much toned down in modern reform Judaism too - not that some of the followers of Jesus have always been any more enlightened - but at least they're allowed to write and say 'his' name.

Shannon Rupp says, "Today's fascists tend to assert their own superiority by calling themselves "enlightened." Well, just about everybody thinks they're in the "enlightened" group, eh--not just "today's fascists"--whoever they may be, but also allopaths, naturopaths, homeopaths, evolutionists, intelligent designists, materialists and alternative theorists--so it's fairly bigoted of you to only accuse "today's fascists" of this hubris.

Do these "fascists" have names, Shannon?--cause I'm getting curiouser and curiouser--and how come you forgot to mention Christianity in your observation about magic? There's a fair number of magic stunts in the bible, eh, although Islam tends to be a bit conservative in this regard, except maybe with regard to the fairly bountiful afterlife offerings.

And those who you call "New Agers" are like Nazis and fascists eh...Can you be more specific please...unless you're referring to writers like Elizabet Sahtouris, who was up at Hollyhock, and who warns about such things as over usage of pesticides and genetic manipulation of seeds--and Deepak Chopra who might get a bit over confident regarding his apparent view into the intentions of dieties, and stuff...but "fascist"--are you sure, Shannon--and Stanley. You guys just might be being a little silly, eh.

(Stanley magically found a link between alternative medicine and Nazis, too)

Shannon Rupp is smearing the New Agers, virtually 90% of which - if my knowledge of them has any relevance - stand on the left, with ideas such as decentralization, cooperation etc. If any of them were fascist they would have already made the cross-over provided by the contemporary substitute for fascism, neoconservatism, as have certain ex-leftists like David Horowitz, Christoper Hitchens etc. Certainly there was right-wing occultism in the past, but one not forget to overlook the left-wing variety either. Remember, Annie Bessant, Sandino etc. Theosophy and Free Masonry were very important among radical circles. And if one wants to be honest about it and cease to create the artificial divide between spirituality and so-called occultism, one should also list the Social Gospel movement, so important in the development of the Canadian left. Discussions like this are no place for finger-pointing and hypocrisy!

Smearing people you don't like with the label "fascist" (or "communist" if the slanderer is from the right) is an old trick and anyone who uses it shows themselves for what they really are. I know this very well, as the Stalinists used to smear my comrades as "anarcho-fascist" (even though such a term is a complete oxymoron) This gave them an excuse to shoot them. Is this what Shannon has in mind for the New Age people?

This is a comment on the commentators.

For almost every story posted on Tyee, while there may be a few sensible comments, invariably a group of regulars weighs in. Apart from their in-groupy, sneering, know-it-all tone, in no time flat they're way off topic, or riding a hobbyhorse, or reduced to near name-calling. They seem incapable of paying more than minimal attention to the piece upon which they're commenting. One wants to say to them: please, get a life. You're wasting your time in a "reader response" hell.

Heather Pringle's book (which I've read) is a valuable piece of research about "bad ideas," as reviewer Stan Persky puts it, and how such ideas developed and were (mis)used in Nazi Germany. In Persky's favourable review of the book, he says that it's relevant to our own times, because we, too, are faced with lots of bad ideas. He cites religious fundamentalism, New Age "fringe cults," and various paranormal claims as examples. He doesn't criticise religion in general, or New Age beliefs in general, or even unusual ideas in general. He criticises bad ideas which permeate our own intellectual climate. That's not so difficult to understand, is it?

Interesting comments on this article.

I'd like to hear peoples views on what I see to be a common ideological thread between Conservative thinking and far-right fascist thinking. The common thread I see between these ideologies is that they reduce the cause of human behaviour to genetics, or hereditary tendencies. Poor people are poor because they don't work hard enough. Poor people are unlikely to go to good schools because they are intellectually inferior, or their parents are. Black and Indegenous people are over-represented in North American prisons because they are more likely to have genetic defects. Rich white people don't end up in prison because they are genetically superior. Of course the Stephen Harper's and George Bush's of this world are smart enough not to air these beliefs publically, as it would be political suicide.

However, if one judges one's beliefs by their actions, then we have to conclude that Stephen Harper and the Conservative Party of Canada do hold these beliefs, that stem from the same sources of Nazi and Fascist 'ideology': that social conditions do not play a role in forming human behaviour; that it is only, or primarily, genetic factors that cause deviant behaviour. Hence, the emphasis on building more prisons to house society's criminals, whilst eliminating social programs, reducing funding to education, and on and on, that can raise a child in an physically, mentally, spiritually and environmentally healthy manner.

No. And hardly necessary to mention either.

Crass.
My brief raction above was in response to 'reader', not you. Sorry for any misunderstanding...in general, I agree with what you posted.

hasten to add that I meant to type 'reaction' not 'raction'.

Crass; as a Canadian conservative I must stand up to your opinion that Conservatives are like Nazi's.
By standing beside Israel, as a legally sovereign country, being attacked by Hizbollah, who is dedicated to the elimination of Israel, I find your stupid point. a stretch.
But nice try though Hitler, You have found the website where you can get away with this kind of goofy viewpoint.
Let me say this, you are stupid, the Canadian conservatives have no time for racism.

In their book Tournament of Shadows -the Great game and the race for Empire, Meyer and Brysac discuss Ahnenerbe at length pointing out that more money was spent on Ahnenerbe than on building the German atomic bomb.

IAMC/Ron Erwin
Why would you bring Israel/Hezbollah into it?

Look at Crass's post again, please. No mention of Israel; not a word about Hezbollah.

You've been into the sauce again haven't you?

G West; read it again, I don't think you ever read it once. If you did you would know that Stephen Harper doesn't use genealogy to judge anyone, and that he is fair person, looking after all Canadians interest.
To compare someone who supports Israel ( Jews ) because they are a democratic, legal country, under attack from terrorists, is sick.
There isn't an evil bone in the CPC's body.

Have you heard what your little hero said about the NDP? I take it you haven't. He is as full of ad hominem garbage as you are. He said the NDP was the work of the devil - sounds pretty demonizing and dissmissive to me. An awful lot like what Hitler said about the JEWS.

Furthermore, you were responding to crass - look at your own post and then read his again - no mention of Israel. no mention of Hezbollah

No, I haven't heard any recent comments on the NDP. Sorry if I am out of date to this information.
I can't imagine Stephen Harper saying anything out of line.
You need to get me more information G, if you care for a comment.
" An awful lot like what Hitler said about Jews ( although you posted JEWS )
What are you talking about?

Here it is, Ron, I knew you'd come back and question me. WHen are you going to learn you're out of your league:
"The NDP could be described as basically a party of liberal Democrats, but it's actually worse than that, I have to say. And forgive me jesting again, but the NDP is kind of proof that the Devil lives and interferes in the affairs of men."

- Conservative leader Stephen Harper, then vice-president of the National Citizens Coalition, in a June 1997 Montreal meeting of the Council for National Policy, a right-wing American think tank.

I expect an immediate apology.

IAMC/Ron Erwin:

I'm still waiting.

I can't get qoutes to work for some reason but
G West said:

"He is as full of ad hominem garbage as you are. He said the NDP was the work of the devil - sounds pretty demonizing and dissmissive to me. An awful lot like what Hitler said about the JEWS."

Hyperbole. You do provide the Harper quote, here is the complete text http://www.cbc.ca/canadavotes/leadersparties/harper_speech.html

The quote you use from Harper sounds nothing like what Hitler said, even in German. Hitler rarely prefaced comments about the Jews with "forgive me jesting again."

Not to G West but a general comment, I am amazed at the number of folks around the complete Escher like ideological structure that lives here at the Tyee willing to decry demonisation of a group or party or person when they share some common ground yet perfectly willing to use similar buzz words and catch phrases to describe an opponent. How often have the major parties or leaders or even MPs been commented about in a "demonizing and dismissive" way? Not only by oppositon party members but by the media and the public.

Harper has been compared to Hitler in this discussion
Layton has been called all manner of names
Martin was Mr. Dithers
Gordon Campbell has more devil caricatures of him extant than Beelzebub
Glen Clarke suffered

Ad hominem attacks, other logical fallacies and unsupportable statements are not unique to one ideology. If you believe that they are you have truly guzzled the kool aid no matter how "communitarian" or "self-reliant" one is. A mind that only finds errors in opponents is dulled by ideological sludge and entered the realm of faith.

Apologies for any spelling/grammatical errors: tore knee ligaments tonight and not typing in the most comfortable position.

Just re-visiting that "mythical" Aryan group - I wouldn't say they are mythical (but I do doubt they are all blond and blue-eyed). Aryans are (and were) real people from Caucasia (present day Iran and surrounding areas - hence the term aryan - which Iranian is a derivative). The Nazi propoganda was fiction - in terms of Germanic entitlement to the Aryan heredity - though it is believed that most of Europe has sprung from that "ethnic branch" of the human evolutionary tree - but the caucasians - or Aryans - did (do) have a superiority complex - and when they went into present day India - they established the cast system which has become a part of Hindu society (the "swastika" is a religious symbol - not a salute to Nazi theology). So, mayhap, fault, dear Brutus, is in their (Aryan) genes and not their stars.

The fact is - anyone can take any piece of information and use the bits that justifies their agenda or preferred world view - but that is delusional. I don't see the "enlightened" link from Ms. Rupp's commentary littered with disdain for modern-philosphical meanderings in search of meaning. - Most peace loving Buddists hope to reach enlightenment - and they aren't exactly tearing down paradise to put up a parking lot. I find it interesting that so many different faith groups are awaiting their "prophet/messenger" - jokes on the feuding lot of the "awaitees" to be fighting over the same guy - and dark irony if they bomb him/her in the process. Imagine screwing up Armageddon because you were bombing hte hell out of each other (no pun intended).

This seems to me to be the core of this behaviour. This tendency toward delusional thinking for gain. Mr Harper has been clear he thinks the devil is the only explanation why anybody would disagree with him. Clearly only God would give him all these opportunities to exercize power over others, so if God's on his side, all who protest can be treated as he wishes.

Just like the Nazis found justification for treating their dissenters with extreme measures in the delusion that there is a hierarchy of "races" and of course theirs is at the top.

Who was it said that people hold those opinions necessary to maintain them in their positions, and hold them sincerely?

I think there's a fairly good case to be made that it was Persky who began the stereotyping with his last paragraph by equating the "bad ideas," (translate as ideas in which he doesn't believe) to Nazism. He even informed us that the Nazis took up "alternative medicine" too.

All I'm saying is that this kind of innuendo is a propaganda technique, not a serious consideration of issues. One might suggest that this kind of approach seemed a bit like the nazism that these two supposedly decry.

I mean...I think we all pretty much agree that the Nazis were a pack of degenerate killers and genociders. Exactly how did the modern alternative theorists become fascists and nazis?

Maybe Persky and Rupp will be more specific.

Gerhardius
Sorry to hear about your knee. Trying to compose in the tiny font that this particular program provides is difficult enough – for me at least – without adding a throbbing knee into the mix.

I actually agree the name-calling can go too far and it gets in the way of actually discussing cases and issues. Just another step in the cheapening of discourse.

Interestingly, I happened to be looking back through Ian Kershaw's excellent biography of Hitler last night and was struck by how 'political' Hitler's demonization of Communists, Social Democrats and Jews actually was, at least in its initial stages. So much of the commentary about Hitler since the war has tried to make the point that he was nothing more than a loony psychopath - which he undoubtedly was by the late 30s. But, prior to that, his attitudes weren't all that unique in the Germany of the time….and, as someone here on this thread pointed out yesterday, the same attitudes were not far from being central to a lot of thinking outside Germany too; and, they were being strongly enforced and underlined by theories (and practices) in the scientific and pseudoscientific field as well. Alas. Sadly, this is not unique. I believe there is a scientist at a Canadian university who is/was (haven’t heard much of him lately) still drawing conclusions about relative intelligence on the basis of the cubic capacity of racially segregated human skulls.

As to Mr. Harper, I certainly hope he’s no Hitler and the comparison for the moment was clearly hyperbolic. However, his dismissive attitude toward people who disagree with his personal take on the world is, nevertheless, very troubling and his pretense that it is all in jest in the quoted material is clearly disingenuous. The way he attracts the support of many people of my acquaintance who would much rather we found a way to turn the clock back fifty years and returned this nation to a time and circumstance when it was pretty much a sliced white bread country: tasteless and without much character, is still disconcerting to me.

Nice touch, btw, Avicenna.

Have a good day, both of you. You too Ron Erwin - I'm still waiting.

G West:
"IAMC/Ron Erwin: I'm still waiting."

You will have to wait a long time. An apology is a sign of weakness, and therefore a sign of genetic inferiority...........

Just remembered who the Canadian researcher I mentioned above actually is.

His name is Professor John Philippe (Phil) Rushton Ph.D , D.Sc and he is a psychology professor at the University of Western Ontario. He's best known for his controversial work on racial differences.

There's a little group of these people, including Rushton, who meet every couple of years under the auspices of a group called American Renaissance.

Here's just a tiny taste from a report on their conference in 2000.

"The meeting was held at the Sheraton Hotel in Reston, Virginia, and began with a Friday evening cocktail reception. The general session on Saturday opened with Richard Lynn of the Ulster Institute for Social Research, who discussed the history and impact of Third-World immigration on Britain. He noted that despite Enoch Powell's famous warning that "we are building our own funeral pyre," non-white immigration continues in the face of popular opposition. Arranged marriages, false documents, chain migration, and haphazard enforcement of immigration laws have resulted in an increase of non-whites from 300,000 to three million from 1961 to 1991 – a ten-fold increase.

The American audience was joined by participants from Canada, England, and France.

Prof. Lynn says there is so much black-on-white violence and anti-police rioting in Britain that it can be likened to a low-level civil war. Blacks in England – particularly Caribbean blacks – resemble American blacks, with problems of unemployment, crime, illegitimacy, and low IQ, while Indians and Chinese are generally better adapted. He warned that unless current trends were reversed whites could become a minority in Europe by 2100."

Their 2006 meeting was held February 20-22, in Herndon, Virginia and featured speakers such as: Professor Philippe Rushton, Samuel Francis, Professor Richard Lynn, Rabbi Meyer Schiller, Professor Michael Levin, Joe Sobran, Father Ronald Tacelli

At these get togethers these worthies discuss important topics like: race differences in IQ, the impact of mass immigration, and whether a culture can survive apart from the people who created it.

Nice guys. They even instruct their members on the best ways to respond to criticism from the left.

Perhaps a little more to whet your appetite. This from a summary report about Dr Rushton's address in 2000.

"In a discussion of his latest research on race, Philippe Rushton spoke of a recent trip to South Africa. He tested the IQs of university blacks in the expectation that they would be approximately one standard deviation above the general population, as is the case with European students. The average score he found of 84 for African university students suggests a devastatingly low average of 70 for the population as a whole. If this figure is accurate, it would mean half the African population is retarded by European standards. Perhaps it is more fruitful to think of African IQs at this level as indicators of mental age rather than evidence of retardation.

In support of the view that racial differences in IQ have genetic origins, Prof. Rushton showed slides demonstrating that whites have brains six percent larger, and Asians eight percent larger than those of blacks. He also explained that brain size has a cascading effect on the body, influencing everything from the width of the birth canal to jaw structure and pelvis size. Biological differences affect many kinds of behavior, and world AIDS rates show a clear racial pattern. Over eight percent of black African adults have HIV compared to 0.2 percent of Europeans and 0.05 percent of Asians.

In the question-and-answer period Prof. Rushton discussed reasons why Asians appear to be less dynamic and creative than whites despite higher IQs. He mentioned several theories, including differences in temperament, a larger standard deviation in the distribution of white IQs, and the possibility that higher achievement by Westerners over Asians "may be only a temporary blip in history."

Other speakers at the conference didn't hesitate to point out that conservative politicians were missing the boat when they ignored the impact of race and how it could and should be turned to their political advantage.

Here's the link, if anyone wants more of this, though I can't think why.:

http://www.amren.com/005issue/005issue.html

And here, is the 2006 version link if anyone thinks this stuff is in the past and not worth paying attention to:

http://www.amren.com/

Another noted Black-hater, David Horowitz,(the Moonbat Prince) has also appeared at Amren conferences. Justin Raimondo of Antiwar.com once called this group a bunch of "gentlemen Nazis".

Always strikes me as funny how the words fascist, redneck, nazi, whitebread etc., get flung around without a care by the "tolerant" ones among us. Why is it ok to call someone a redneck, but terrible to call someone a nigger, chug, gook, etc? Now that racism is an easy evil, whites are the new whipping boy, but of course labels are put on by those with power, so it is the working class, white men who get the tag, by the tolerant, of course. I don't call people names relating to thier race or color or social class, what they do is what matters, not what they look like. Matbe I am a little sensitive, driving a big 4x4, listening to hard rock/heavy metal, having a mullet, making my living with a chainsaw. What a stereotype of a "redneck" for those who are given to label . Lets all try to be a little nicer to each other, and remember that names hurt.

As an antidote to Persky's snide insult of alternative medicine practitioners and patients (He informs that the Nazis, too were interested in alternative medicine), there's an excellent article in this month's Common Ground Magazine entitled, "Monopoly medicine squashes the alternatives," by Alan Casells, who also wrote the book, "Selling Sickness; How the World's Biggest Pharmaceutical Companies Are Turning Us All Into Patients."

In response to Truman Green - Alan Casells is one "science writer" who actually knows what he is talking about. I have been very impressed by his grasp of the science and the industry. I had first thought he was a scientist himself because he has an insider's view of our white lab coat world.

G West - your knowledge is encyclopedic. All those "docs" who preach racial superiority in intelligence - can't even define intelligence - so it is just more pollution from their hot air. However, it is not a unique perception of "white Western" pseudo-scholars - many other cultures have their graded intelligence spectrum and go out of their way to prove themselves superior. There is more evidence of this on a national comparative - the Japanese regard Americans as lazy, fat, and stupid in comparison to themselves. I'll just leave it at that - those crazy Japanese! Where do they get their wacky ideas....?

Sorry G west, but I forgot about this thread.
I said recent comments from Stephen Harper, not something from nine years ago. He wasn't even saying anything out of line, the truth hurts doesn't it. You see, we conservatives really believe the NDP is an evil force, preventing Canadians from achieving there potential.
David Horowitz isn't a black hater. If you want to view his website it's frontpagemagazine.com
David Horowitz can defend himself as good as his fellow Jews.

IAMC
Yeh, Ron, but Harper hasn't changed his tune since then - in fact he hasn't changed his tune about anything so you still own me an apology. I know all about David Horowitz and the kind of hate he has for people he doesn't agree with. People who question his orthodoxy: I've subscribed to his hateful little rag since he started publishing it. Why do you think I know every stupid idea you've ever spouted or written on this site? Because I know how you think, I read everything your heroes write and say and I know the hate that bubbles in your blood stream for anyone who doesn’t accept your point of view.
You don’t even realize that much of the society and the quality of life you enjoy today is because of the CCF and the NDP, without whom someone like you might never have got an education at all, wouldn’t be able to afford to send your children to school or pay for medical care – let alone have a pension or get UI when you lost a job. These things didn’t just happen and they sure as hell didn’t come from the thin air either: And you say that the NDP interferes with people reaching their full potential – what a joke.

It is exactly the same kind of hateful resentment of others and their needs and desires that fueled the fires in Germany after the First World War.

I still think you owe me an apology. I don't think you have the character to realize it. But I wouldn't expect much from someone who has only a passing acquaintance with the truth.

There are no evil people Ron, just evil ideas…as this review and the comments added to it illustrate – but you just don’t get it do you? I’m afraid you and Stephen Harper share the same prejudices you’ve just expressed them to me and everyone else who read your words. God help us all if this ideologue ever gets a majority government.

I too have read Horowitz's hate sheet. He really doesn't like Black people. It is terrible that you should apologise for this sicko, IAMC. I see in another article (Psychedelics...) you now claim to be a libertarian. Here you claim to be a neocon. Well which is it? All the free market libertarians I know of - folks like Justin Raimondo or Lew Rockwell, to name only two, HATE the neocons, hate the war, and regard Horowitz as basically a neo-nazi. You sound confused. Get your politics straight.

anarcho: my politics are simple after all. Are you confused about what a Libertarian is?
I don't know what a neocon is. Perhaps you will have to explain why anyone who disagrees with you is tagged with this label.
Call me a neocon if that makes you feel better.

I checked out these Amren website links G West, thank you. Not a very nice theme there, I support freedom of speech however and I wonder how long that would last in Canada, the screaming for censorship would be loud. No, its not censorship, we are trying to stop the hate, right, Fine line, slippery slope. A few weeks back in my local paper (Queen Charlotte Observer) a Haida lady complained that the Haida race was being diluted and urged that the race be kept strong. I feel that it is her right to say that, but of course I wondered, what if I asked the same thing for the white race? Double standards, double speak, bullshit and guilt abound in these kind of topics.

climber
Not very nice indeed. And, I think pretty apropos to the theme of this review - the bad science bit particularly. I’m not sure about Canada’s hate speech laws – on the other hand, we haven’t really got much of an independent press anymore so the take one gets on things in the papers and TV is pretty narrow.

I think there's lots of room left for free speech, which is what I'd say the Haida woman you're referring to was exercising. If a community wants to be insular I'd say they have that right, as long as people are allowed to make their own decisions. As long as the group isn't trying to limit the freedom or opportunity of other groups - which is what a whites only policy always seems to try and do. But then there’s the David Ahenikew case – where he made certain offensive statements about Jews and the Germans and runs afoul of the hate speech laws. I don’t know. I find what he said was pretty offensive to me, as well as to the Jews but I’m sure lots of people all across the prairies say and think similar things all the time. I think there is an extra duty on people who are public figures to use the power of the microphone and the media appropriately – for example, I think Harper’s statement about Israeli proportionality in its attack on Lebanon was both stupid and unfair and I think he’s right to be called on it – but does it amount to hate speech against Muslims? It’s close believe me – but you know he’ll never be charged under the law like Ahenikew was. Not fair either.

If the Haida lady said throw everyone who's not Haida off the Islands then I'd agree that was racist behavior too - but I don't think that's what she said.

The saving grace - which makes white racism look so ridiculous - is science itself. Well over half the 'white' population of the US has at least 10% mixed blood so there is no real 'white' race anymore - despite what Horowitz and Phil Rushton would have you think. And, the variations within racial groups in IQ and the like are much greater than the variations between groups so you can't even make the limited case he claims to base his conclusions upon.

Race is really a fiction and if we continue to speak freely, with the exception of someone like Ron (IAMC) who isn't really a factor in a real discussion, people of good will can find common ground in these matters - as long as we don't start off with closed minds.

How is the ferry situation now for you guys? More or less back to normal I hope.

The ferry situation, thanks for asking, no, its nowhere near back to normal, just the Queen of Prince Rupert, smaller than the ill fated beautiful Queen of the North. As far as David Ahenikew, what a travesty, we don't need him to be criminally charged to know what he said was hatefull, he has every right to say what he thinks in a free society, which I guess we are not. He didn't say "lets kill all the Jews tonight with rifles" Where does it stop, who decides, its the road to hell. What if I say a significant percentage of Asians have appaling driving habits and shouldn't even be allowed to operate a whealbarrow? Am I spreading hate, causing a minority to be possibly genocided? And, like you calling BS on the "white" idea, Asians raised in BC are decent drivers, so, its not about race. Freedom of speech is something you have or don't have. I like the quote, I believe it to be a giant from the past, maybe the American judge Loius Brandiez (spelling error) or Churchill. "the best disinfectant is sunlight"

Don't disagree in principle climber, the restraint should be self-imposed. Let's let folks who bleed that kind of bile roast in their own juice - as Mel Gibson is right now.
But we need a more independent and responsible media than we've got today.
And, just because a thing can be done or said doesn't always mean it should be. There's an excellent book on that subject I'd recommend called Forbidden Knowledge: From Prometheus to Pornography by Roger Shattuck.
I'm sure you can pick it up for next to nothing at a second hand book store.

It made me think.

I wish the Victoria Govt. didn't always sweep anything that doesn't concern the lower mainland off their desks the minute the TV lights get cold. I’d like to hear a lot more about your situation up there. I’ve flown near the Charlottes many times in small planes when going up and down the coast but never been there – maybe next summer.

IAMC wrote " I don't know what a neocon is. Perhaps you will have to explain why anyone who disagrees with you is tagged with this label."

If you don't know what a neocon is where have you been hiding all these years? Obviously you are not interested in finding out otherwise you would go to Wikipedia. As for me labeling everyone I disagree with that term, this is utter rubbish. I happen to disagree with to one degree or another with social democrats, liberals, marxist leninists and traditional conservatives, and I would never call them neocons. They already have a perfectly legitimate name. Neocons - in a nut shell are self-styled conservatives who are pro-war, pro-empire, pro-corporate state, pro-Bush, pro-military industrial complex, who slander their opponants using the Big Lie Technique. Eg Horowitz O'Reilly, Limbaugh, etc.

Personally, I feel that the Haida woman who wants to keep the Haida race pure is espousing a sentiment which is at the very core of racism. I don't think she should be prosecuted for such ideas, but I feel she's quite stupid, and in effect, not much different than all the other racists who wish to proclaim some special status for their own group--as I mentioned, like Persky, who condemned Christian and Islamic fundamentalism, but strangely forgot to mention Jewish fundamentalism. There are many way to insinuate exceptionalist beliefs regarding one's own group, and omission of this sort is just another one.

Unfortunately, it has probably never occurred to that Haida woman that her requirement for a pure race is racism, pure and simple, whether recommended by a supposedly oppressed people, or David Duke.

Truman, I don't think this Haida woman is stupid, or a racist. I believe she is trying to preserve her culture in a way that makes sense to her. I don't think she considers the Haida superior, my experience with them is that they believe we are all equal, but that they should have thier way here on the Charlottes. My point is about what would happen if a white person said the same thing, thats the problem. To me racism is all about believing that one race is superior to another. I like it here, its kind of like BC was many years ago, whites and natives, with just a smidgen of other races, guess that makes me a racist, oh well.

I don't know why I'm allowing myself to get sucked into this debate, having done so to no good effect once before, but here goes. We need good science. Credible, dispassionate science. Does Laetrille work as a cancer treatment? Don't ask me to take it on faith, as so many people do. I've never found any evidence for it, except the ever-popular and unreliable anecdotal evidence. I've seen people line up to have hydrogen peroxide solution injected into their veins as a cancer treatment, based on extremely dubious theories about blood oxygenation and tumour growth. By all means, alternative medicine -- when thoughtful analysis shows it works. By all means, let's not succumb to the prescriptions of the pharmeceutical industry, when the prescriptions are dubious. But let's not, if we believe there are verifiable truths, rush to judgment based on what ill-defined group of people an idea emerges from. Let's consider the idea, and test it. Is there anything wrong with that? Or am I being a fascist again?

Climber, I'm not a white person, but if I was, and made the kind of comment attributed to that Haida woman, I would be fairly called a racist--and so would you.

The most common enabling concept regarding race and culture is that culture and tradition are genetically inheritable. They are not!

(google: acquired characteristics, which is what this idea used to be called. Darwin accepted it hook, line and sinker)

ALL racists accept this long discredited claim in order to bolster their exceptionalist assumptions about their own group. In fact, there is no way to be a racist without accepting the idea of genetic inheritance of culture, and secondarily, all those who recommend the "pure race" concept espouse this faulty inheritance belief.

The best way to preserve any culture is by fostering respect for its attributes--not by trying to genetically design the physical appearance of those who wish to participate in the culture. Recommending racial isolation is contraindicated for such a program.

This non-inheritability of culture, for some reason, is among the most difficult and elusive of ideas for most human beings to understand.

But one can only hope that the next order of humanoids will have a bit higher mean intelligence quotient, as the idea is quite obviously a pack of crap.

Charles, funny you should mention hydrogen peroxide as a cancer treatment. A few weeks ago I was considering the possibility that the killing of normally-occuring microflora--notably lactobacillus which produce HYDROGEN PEROXIDE (in vivo)--could be the beginning of a carcinogenic syndrome resulting in cervical cancer--and that the carcinogens are present in deodorant products. It certainly ain't human papilloma virus, for which pharmacorpia has recently developed vaccines they're trying to persuade world governments to inject into all 9 to 26 year-old females. ($300-$500 a pop) Do the math!

For instance--98% of the time hpv gets busted by the human immune system or causes genital warts, then goes away of boredom.

I doubt if Merck and Glaxo (hpv vaccine patent holders) are going to be doing clinical tests anytime soon to determine the rates of cervical cancer in woman whose microflora have been diminished to the degree that they are no longer producing hydrogen peroxide naturally--or clinical tests on any other possible cervical cancer mutagens or aneugens, anytime soon!

Your news about h202 being injected is a very interesting, and increases my interest in h2l2 as a cancer treatment.

Regardless, cancers are caused by carcinogens--sometimes naturally occurring, but most often as a result of chemicals occurring as a by product of industrialization. Whether you accept the mutagen (nucleotide sequencing errors) or aneugen (chromosomal abnormality) paradigms, the key is not treatment but PREVENTION.

And for very weird quirk of history, get this: The Nazis (speak of the devil) developed a very progressive preventive program against cancer. Now before you go thinking, 'here's Truman applauding the Nazis (which I'd be the last to do), take a look at Robert Procter's book, "The Nazi War On Cancer."

A wee bit disconcerting to imagine that the Nazis ever had a single good idea, but life's like that sometimes.

Here's some of the stuff they recommended: 1. anti-smoking campaigns, 2.linking of smoking to cancer 3.environmental and workplace chemical hazards 4.restriction of asbestos products. 5. bans on pesticides. 6. bans on food additives. 7 linkage of lung cancer and asbestos.8.physical exercise programs. (All to get master-race type Aryans, no doubt)

Somewhere between 35 and 45 percent of all people in western nations are now going to get cancer. The problem's in our food manufacturing and chemical environment, including hydrocarbon pollutants--and that's a very alternative theorist concept--but not particularly patentable.

Hey Truman,

Interesting conversation between you and climber. I always enjoy your thoughts on things Truman.

I will just add my 2 bits if you do not mind.

I love so many things about different cultures, and as you know, I especially have a very warm place in my heart for the FN people and always have... Much of their spirituallity rings very true to me. In saying this, I believe there is so much more to them then simply the blood that runs in their veins, and I believe for the most part, they know this.

Do they feel they have to keep their genetic lines pure?? Some maybe do, as I witnessed as such down in the Black Hills. But the wise of these cultures know that the sustainabity of their culture, is not upheld or measured by their blood, but by their spirit and dedication towards their beliefs and traditions.

A good friend once told me that a wise leader has 2 faces, one that faces inside towards their community, and one that faces outside towards other cultures of the world. I believe this is happening now more than ever...and it's good. I believe the "blood" issue is diminishing as it should with these people.

They are a "big" people on many levels and have much to offer us and other cultures. Whether they are brown, red or white would never limit their potential to impact our world in a good way, and I believe they know this.

Peace

RTB

Hi RTB. You wrote, "But the wise of these cultures know that the sustainability of these cultures, is not upheld or measured by their blood, but by their spirit and dedication towards their beliefs and traditions."

Which is an excellent restatement of my point.
Thanks.

Truman, I'm glad you're not my doctor.

Trouble with the "right" is they have adopted the principles of Newspeak:
http://www.newspeakdictionary.com/ns-prin.html
which is something like the fishing weirs once set up by fishers, and which do not allow thoughts to go in any direction except that which is prescribed.

Hi Charles. How ya doin? The Tyee's the best, eh!

How come you wouldn't have me as your doctor? You mean just because you'd be down at the police station bailing me out for practising without a license, or what? I got this email last week where a guy can get a medical degree just by filling out some blanks and sending a credit card number, and like that, so that wouldn't be a problem, eh.

Was it the Nazi war on cancer? Honest, those bastards figured out that cancer is caused by carcinogens in industrial chemicals. (okay, so that's a tautology, you know what I mean, though) Did you google the book on it?

Was it the hydrogen peroxide? I was just studying about hydrogen peroxide depletion due to lactobacillus depletion, and was wondering about a link with cervical cancer--because I was studying hiv microbicides and discovered that the worry is that they will deplete good bacteria near the cervix--which might encourage fungal growth--yeast etc, that is. These syndromes are all connected, eh.

Did you study the Vom Saal--Welshons research where they looked at 130 studies into the danger of bisphenol A? (a well known carcinogen and actually causes aneuploidy in meiotic female mouse cells--not good) They found that of the 119 studies done by government funding 92% reported adverse reactions and of the 11 studies funded by industry not a single study reported adverse reactions. It's called Flaws in Bisphenol A Research, or something like that.

A real eye-opener and makes one wonder if Celia Farber's correct in her Harper's article, "The Corruption of Medical Science."

This sorta goes along with the "bad science" idea, eh.

But I wouldn't be injecting hydrogen peroxide into your bloodstream, if I was your doctor, honest. You do realize the the body produces it naturally, though-- Sorta like vitamin b12--from bacteria.

I won't labour this much, Truman, as I don't think the comments section for these articles should become conversations between a few individuals. It was your enthusiasm for the idea that there might be something to this hydrogen peroxide business that made me nervous. I'll tell everyone what I've said here before, however. I've found a lot of bad science on both sides of the alternative/mainstream medical divide. On the alternative side, though, I also found a lot of 'no science.' Just rejection of the mainstream and blind faith, from people who can't bring themselves to put any stock in the beliefs of "the other".

Hey Charles, I just found this study regarding the possible hydrogen peroxide-lactobacillus depletion by microbicides which I had surmised, and for which you showed relief that I'm not your doctor: It's on PUBMED, pretty decent publisher, eh.

Google: hydrogen peroxide lactobacillus. Click on "Hydrogen Peroxide production by lactobacillus."

The researchers are two guys from the University of Toronto Department of Surgery (Division of Urology) JA McGroaty et al.

"Facultative anaerobic lactobacilli were recovered from the vaginas of 96.8% of 63 nonpregnant, healthy, premenopausal woman. The prdominant species were lactobacillus jensenii, lactobacillus acidophilus and lacto bacillus casei. Of the women 74% had hydrogen peroxide-producing lactobacilli, 22.2% had non-hydrogen peroxide producing lactobacilli and 3.2% had no lactobacilli...All of the lactobacilli that were sensitive to nonoxynol 9 (the microbicide I referred to in my post) produced hydrogen peroxide, wheras only 3 of 21 resistant strains were hydrogen peroxide producers. "

"It is suggested that the vaginal flora of spermicide users could be depleted of
hydrogen peroxide producing lactobacilli, possibly increasing susceptibility to urogenital infection."

And Charles, hpv is a urogenital infection supposedly causing cervical cancer.

How much of a stretch is it then, to at least speculate, that the depletion of hydrogen peroxide in the vagina could lead to carcinogenesis, (by allowing silent chronic infection) and that human papilloma virus could possibly be merely epiphenomenal or associatively causative in the etiology of carcinogenesis-if not from microbicides, but other chemicals? In other words the actual first line cause of cervical cancer might be lactobacillus depletion that allows hpv to cause neoplasia. If this were the case simple, cheap probiotics might do the trick--and much better than vaccines because they could be prescribed after diagnosis with lactobacillus depletion, and target only women with this condition--not millions of women who are already infected with hpv, which is what will be happening under the currect vaccination program.

This is all speculation, but fairly intelligent, wouldn't you say? Don't you think it makes as much sense as the oncogene--tumour-suppressor gene theory of cancer?

Isn't this how scientists develope hypotheses?

How all this all ties into "bad science" Charles, is that in spite of all this research today 50% of all condoms are still treated with nonoxynol 9 as a microbicide against hiv infection. Bad science?

The other well known problem with nonoxynol 9 is that it irritates the membranes, causing small sores, and actually makes hiv MORE transmissable. Hard to believe, eh!

Here's a study you can do for yourself regarding neuropathy. It is widely claimed that neuropathy is a "hiv-related illness." There's a huge amount of CONCLUSIVE evidence that the neuropathy suffered by so-called Aids victims is actually caused by the anti-retrovirals used to treat hiv infectioin, AND NOT the so-called infection, which is diagnosed by way of antigen-antibody reaction--the dreaded hiv test. More bad science?

Haven't seen you address julio Montaner's latest AIDS gambit directly yet, Truman. Did I just miss it?

THis one: http://www.macleans.ca/topstories/health/article.jsp?content=20060814_131886_131886

Charles Campbell said: "I won't labour this much, Truman, as I don't think the comments section for these articles should become conversations between a few individuals".

Charles, first you bring up a subject (hydrogen peroxide on human health), then give people crap for commenting and expanding with interesting and applicable information.

Really Charles, yes, we ARE commenting relative to the articles, but so what if a little sideline is taken, as long as it is temporary...right? A certain amount of flow and deviation often (not always) makes a even more interesting thread, and holds the potential of exposing background information relative to fundamental understandings which in turn allow for even more pertinent and well thought out postings.

Anyways, that is my take my friend...

Peace

RTB

I think it's bad science for someone to take some rudimentary research on the absence/presence of hydrogen peroxide in the early stage development of one sort of cancer and suggest that somehow repudiates skepticism about flooding hydrogen peroxide into the bloodstreams of people with another sort of late-stage cancer. I had a relative a number of years ago who ingested a substance on the theory that it would just manifest itself in the part of the body where its absence was creating a health problem. Alternative health advice at work. Unfortunately, our bodies function in rather more complex ways. As his doctor ultimately advised him, putting iron filings in a crankcase doesn't rebuild an engine.

As for what's appropriate or not in these threads, I think when six people talk to each other like old friends at a party, it closes the discussion off to others who might otherwise participate. And I was guilty of doing that myself by addressing Truman directly. I was apologizing for being a hypocrite, essentially. Nevertheless, I do think there is an increasingly small group of people participating in these threads, and for me that's a problem. Not that I've done any scientific analysis mind you; the observation's purely anecdotal.

And of course, Charles, I would strongly agree with you that drinking hydrogen peroxide or shooting it intravenously would be entirely ridiculous, and my comments regarding my own coincidental research into lactobacillus-producing hydrogen peroxide were not meant to claim any knowledge of efficacy for hydrogen peroxide as a cancer treatment--early or late state--but that I had discovered (serendipitous to your original comment regarding hydrogen peroxide) some interesting research regarding microbicides depleting hydrogen peroxide-producing lactobacillus--particularly nonoxynol 9.

From which I speculated that because hpv is a urogenital infection--and it is known that hydrogen peroxide furnishes protection against infection--it might be relevant to investigate if its depletion concurrent with resistant strains of lactobacillus might be productive. And I maintain that that might be an entirely reasonable hypothesis for investigation.

And, of course, I have no scientific credentials whatsoever, but I claim to be quite well informed for a layman, as science is my main intellecutal hobby--good science and bad science.

May I respond to Alcibiades, since he asked me a direct question? I would suppose that he's interested in my reply.

Yes, Alcbiades, I'm very knowledgeable about Julio Montaner's latest recommendations that all hiv positive people be treated with antiretrovirals. I find this weird and crazy because Aids establishment scientists have long claimed that the reason they can't come up with a vaccine is that the virus is constantly becoming resistant by mutating, and is, in fact, a latent virus, which may take 10 to 30 years to cause severe immunosuppression. We're liable to get a few hundred million people walking around with drug-resistant antiretrovirals in their systems!

Of course the real reaon why they can't do a vaccine is because HIV doesn't cause Aids, and they've erroneously transplanted conventional virology assumptions, (like hep b, for instance) onto a 9 kilobase retrovirus that supposedly ATTACKS THE IMMUNE SYSTEM. If the immune system is already working well enough to produce antibodies, that should have signalled to them that a vaccine will never work, because it has been made redundant by a functioning immune system. So, no vaccine--ever, it's not possible. This is so bizarre that if they ever managed to get a vaccine the recipient would need a certificate from the vaccine company informing any future medical practitioner to disregard any future hiv positive test (from that particular patient) because the vaccine had made the recipient immune.

The key is--antibodies do not equal illness!

I repeated that ad nauseum to show how inane the whole thing is.

Prescribing dangerous meds like AZT, protease inhibitors and other chain terminators to people merely in response to antigen-antibody reaction seems a peculiarly ill-advised way to go and I hope it will be resisted.

Montaner's disclosure list can be seen, incidentally, by googling "Dr. Montaner disclosure," and clicking on "Treatment and Management of HIV Infection."

Aids pharmacorp has been trying to come up with a vaccine since l984 and it seems as though they're now trying to get the 100s of billions they would have reaped from vaccines, by flooding the world with their antiretrovirals, all of which have been proven to be very dangerous. In fact, I emailed Dr. Montaner a few weeks ago with my concerns about the misidentification of neuropathy as "hiv-related," insteaad of "hiv-drugs related," which I mentioned in my above post. No response yet.

The rethinking aids movement is again gaining ground largely due to interest generated by Celia Farber's article in Harper's Magazine, "The Aids Machine--The Corruption of Medical Science." It's available on the Harper's website.

And the rejuvenated rethinking aids site is here:

http://www.rethinkaids.com/body.cfm?id=60

Charles Campbell said: " Nevertheless, I do think there is an increasingly small group of people participating in these threads, and for me that's a problem."

Thanks Charles for your reply. I understand what you are saying here Charles, and I will keep this in mind. A little movement is o.k, but "Party on Thread", or a "Blog Party" is not... Right? If so, fair enough and agreed...

Peace Charles

RTB

It is, to put it colloquially, "funny," how the possibility for learning is always present. (I'm assuming that 18 hours without a single comment on this thread is is sufficient time for me to wait before adding to this discussion about good science-bad science).

I've been studying the lactobacillus-hydrogen peroxide link, and speculating that it might me analogous to bacteria-B12-pernicious anemia--even pancreas-insulin--it's interesting that insulin has been produced by recombinant DNA technology--genetically engineering it from escherrichia-coli--that sometimes obnoxious bacteria found in feces and the gastrointestinal tract.

To discover that certain strains of lactobacillus produce hydrogen peroxide is very interesting for the simple reason that it's intuitively suggestive of a possible therapeutic role, as is B12 from naturally-occurring bacteria.

And so, it's not totally farcical to speculate that there might, indeed, be some therapeutic possibilities for hydrogen peroxide, not only as a natural kind of antibiotic and antiviral, but for its oxidizing effect.

And I think the pharmaceutical industry could either disprove or confirm any possible efficacy if it was motivated by the eventuality of patentable, hugely- marked up products at the end of the clinical trials. Even getting a patentable product on the market can cost 500 million bucks, so we'll probably never know if h202 is a COMPLETE fraud as a therapy--as I'm sure it is in the hands of SOME unscrupulous practitioners--or, in the right form and treatment, etc, an interesting possibility. But as for "flooding the bloodstream" with it--. probably "contraindicating," as doctors sometimes say.

Truman:
I think Charles' concerns about thread hijacking are overblown. IF ii weren't for the few regulars who posted here ‘this’ comment thread would be barren indeed.

Hardly a new or unique phenomenon. When someone has something to say he or she is free to do so. I suspect, in the end, the activity in the comment section (relevant or otherwise) is proportional to the number of attentive readers of the original article.

Alcibiades, I really appreciate what you have said, because I think it is true. I have been going over all the threads for hours and I think it's possibly the regulars who inspire much of the discussion. Thanks again, and especially thanks for your query above. I suspect you're also right about the original article being responsible for the number of commentors.

Afterall, this does not really operate like a town meeting. You can't really just yell over somebody and drown out their voice if they want to join in the discussion, or change it.

The printed word is silent, and if it is interesting and provocative it will inspire reponse, whether from a commentor or the original article. Thanks!

Perhaps Charles has an "inside" view of this though, and I'd be interested to know if he has concerns we're not aware of.

Hey Truman and Alcibiades,

Yeah, maybe Charles can expand on the "view" from the inside. I was concerned I was not being sensitive to his position in all this, but I am curious as to how he defines "appropriate" posting edicate. I still think sideline visits are almost always helpful and necessary . I was really enjoying Truman's conversation with climber and Charles himself... Why the concern??

Help us help you Charles and at the same time, not surrender our creative and social human juices...

Peace man,

RTB

I figured you'd be back, RTB, and I thought that's what you'd say when you got back. Peace to all.

Yeah Truman, I tried to accomodate Charles, but I was quite unsatified. You two requestion the original situation, so in support, I thought I would reiterate my original question...

So if Charles has some concerns he would share with us, maybe we can learn his "inside view" is on the subject of, as Alcibiades said so well, "thread hijacking"... We'll see...

Thanks for the info on lactobacillus-hydrogen peroxide link... So interesting dude...

Peace my friend

RTB

Really glad you share my fascination with the fact that certain lactobacilli manufacture hydrogen peroxide, RTB. (not for themselves, but for US) It's beyond belief. How do they do it? Do they know the atomic structure of h2o2? And where do they get the atoms? It's just totally mind-boggling.

Imagine 200 trillion cells in the human body and every single ONE of them contains, in its nucleus and chromosomes, the information to make a complete human being. The information load is 200 trillion times 200 trillion. (how's your scientific notation?) Each cellular component knows its job. And the materialists mock Sheldrake when he figures there's intelligence in the universe beyond what's available in our brains! The stupidity is as fascinating as dna-enzyme and protein expression--all from four nucleotide bases and 20 amino acids. I still can't believe it.

Glad I'm not the only one who's totally dazzled by it all!

"Really Charles, yes, we ARE commenting relative to the articles, but so what if a little sideline is taken, as long as it is temporary...right? A certain amount of flow and deviation often (not always) makes a even more interesting thread, and holds the potential of exposing background information relative to fundamental understandings which in turn allow for even more pertinent and well thought out postings." - RTB

Aside from war, famine and disease being beneficial for population growth, lets talk about how 'solidarity' of the left failed to stop this nazi fringe group from taking power just like here in Canada and during the general strike in Vancouver.

I see, Janet666! You're obviously responding to this by Persky:

"I think most readers of Pringle's 'Master Plan' will be struck by its contemporary relevance. What ideas are afloat today, we have to ask, that could easily give rise to living nightmares as terrifying as those of more than half a century ago."

Then he goes on to throw in Christian and Islamic fundamentalists, New Age fringe cults, alien abductions, psychic powers and alternative medicine.

And in his final sentence, he asks again, "What bad ideas of our own are waiting in the wings for the right moment to step onto (on to) the world stage."

The book review was good, but wouldn't you think, Janet 666, that Persky owes us another essay on these questions instead of just tagging them on to the end of the review?

At any rate, I understand, Janet666, your interest in developing Persky's titillating queries, and staying on track--by talking about, "how solidarity of the left failed to stop this nazi fringe group from taking power just like here in Canada and during the general strike in Vancouver."

No going off on a wild tangent for you, eh!

"No going off on a wild tangent for you, eh! - TG"

Frankly, yes, or should it be, no.

It is nazi politics that keep socialist reform from occuring.

It is this 'dominant' competitive nature in both the left and the right of our society, which drives all our cultures and survival, as well as much of the commentary on this site.

The lust for power, or just plain lust is a powerful driving force that affects all of us. It's hard to say what Persky feels he owes.

I've been reading all those other posts, Charles Campbell, with those often acrimonious and combative discussions, with commentors addressing each other directly and usually five or six regulars leading the way.

Especially after the "six lessons" article. And being concerned that I was guilty of doing something to damage the Tyee, as suggested in your above comment, that people should not be addressing 'Truman' directly, I would like to suggest that it appears that you have unfairly singled me out, and that your chastisement was a projection of the fact that you did not appreciate the content of my commentary.

The direct addressing of commentors seems to be an inherent circumstance of this and all other commentors' blogs with which I am familiar.

Unless you are planning to similarly chastise all those other enthusiastic commentors...in which case I would gladly cease any behaviour that the editor believes is detrimental to the Tyee, as well as apologize for accusing you of treating me in any exceptionalist fashion.

At any rate, I acknowledge that the Tyee has allowed us free reign to express any and all opinions except those which cross the line into bigotry or libel, for which I was on at least one occasion guilty.