The border zone between Lebanon and Israel has always been something of a 'march' zone, now that the Cold War has gone dead, the threats that used to work in keeping Israel's hand from reaching to the sword do not work any more. Moreover the ability of Lebanon to have any effect at all over the Hezbollah is greatly diminished.

Given the two factors working at the same time, I suspect that every 'march' region all over the world will start to become more irritating to the nation-states that border them.

The Lebanese are disgusted with their government but not because Israel is attacking Hezbollah. They are disgusted because their President could have prevented this war but did nothing. The Hezbollah leader admitted to telling the President of Lebanon who admitted to knowing that Hezbollah was going to attack Israel. He could have warned them not to and that the Lebanese Army would be forced to attack them and/or he could have publicly announced that they were going to attack, taking away the element of surprise. It would have also given the population some time to prepare for the events. This makes the government of Lebanon complicit in the attack on Israel.

The government there also failed to put in place a civil defense plan to protect their population despite knowing that Hezbollah was preparing for a major conflict with Israel. One of the reason that there has only been 50+ deaths in Israel despite the greatest bombardment in their history, is the highly tuned Civil Defense network and proper shelter construction and a trained population.

The Lebanese Government allowed themselves to be dragged into a conflict which they had not prepared for. The people there know it and won’t forget.

Also wonder about the polling figures from Lebanon, with Hezbollah having strict control over the media and their access to the population, how can a poll reflect the true feelings of people who are not free to say what they think?

Good question. Now, can I ask how you can possibly substantiate a claim like this?

What makes you such an authority on what the Lebanese think? Do you have some special access to the Lebanese people that the polling firms don't?

I wonder if the polls would change if more people saw evidence that Hezbollah is using Lebanese civilians as human shields:

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,19955774-5007220,00.html

Or if people were aware that some of the casualties might be staged for media effect:

http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/07/who-is-this-man.html

Hey Stan, Isreal's army has been using the human shield trick in Gaza for years and no one said a damn thing. The American trained Isrealie army has a rule of shoot/bomb first, then ask questions, then deny. Like our four murdered soldiers in Afganistan two years ago.

Welcome to the middle east where time and babaritry go back 3000 years.

The sad fact is, the Asper Press only reports Isreals view of the war so no clear conclusion can be made. The Canadian public are being fed the drivel that the pro Isreal side wants, that would have made any former eastern bloc dictator proud!

What the Canadian public need is unbiased reporting and we are not getting it.

Well, if one ignores the Zionist Occupation of Palestine, which is the actually defining launch of this ongoing conflict, it was the Zionist re-entry into Gaza and their refusal to accept the democratic decision of the Palestinians, in electing a Hamas government which initiates the current period. (Much of the population of South Lebanon is, in fact, Palestinian diaspora driven from Palestine by the Jewish Terror that created so-called Israel out of Palestine.)

So it really is necessary to get this "mixed logic" of pro-Amerikian and pro-Zionist partisan think, sorted out first.

And Colin, you should note that Syria recently conceded that Shebba Farms which the Zionist troops have long occupied, is in fact a part of Lebanon.

So the reality we all, but especially our own US ass kissing wingnuts have to face up to is, first, that so-called Israel is a US Empire proxie, serving its world domination march, like Nazi German across Europe in an earlier time. Secondly, we need to understand that there is no solution which can begin to this period, at least until the initial Zionist crime against the Palestinians is acknowledged and corrected, and allowing for their right of return to their homeland and property assets.

That done, and only then, discussion to a final resolution can begin, in my view, hopefully leading to a "secular", religious neutral single state that will lay out conditions and enducements that allow for the Palestinian majority to live alongside whatever remaining Jewish population will opt to remain in Palestine.

The longer this goes on, and the suppressively brutal the crimes of the Zionist State against the native Palestinians and its Arab neighbours, however, looking at it realistically, one has to also acknowledge that it becomes more and more difficult for the Semite Arab majority to tolerate the Jews. And makes a mutually tolerable resolution more and more unlikely, even impossible.

But behind it all, as it is important for the common Arab masses of the Middle East, it is important that we in this country, who have our own issues awaiting resolution with the US Empire, to understand that driving this entire business is not some global Jewish conspiracy, though it is clearly a player. But that really more it all serves the interests of, and could not continue without the military, financial and political interference assistance of, this same US imperialism.

And finally, in my view, though I've stated it many times here before, it is in our own national interest that the US Empire be defeated in its latest world domination march across the globe, currently centred in the Middle East. Without a humbled US Empire, and better yet even a broken military and economic imperialism capacity, this country's own national independance and aspirations are a brown nugget swirling about the bowl, ready to disappear into the swirl of the
Great Yankee toilet as well.

Which is why it is so important to defeat the kiss US ass, Big Lying Mackayesque, neoconservative view of the world in this country. It is that and these fascist drifting folks among us, who are holding this country's own independant development back.

And Israel has NO right to defend itself. It is the thief come from Europe and Amerika who has broken into the Palestinian house, stolen their property and driven the actual owners off. They are a criminal state, whatever the sanction of The West, and have NO Rights, save to get out of the house and make restitution to the victims of their crime.

Coyote was almost right. Instead, the US is a proxy of Israel.

Read anything by former Mossad agent Victor Ostrovsky sometime.

And I think, Coyote, the Israeli Cabinet member who, in the early days of this current nightmare, referred to the actions of the IDF in the Lebanon as 'bringing the Wild West' to a country that was only just beginning to recover from the previous depredations of Ariel Sharon's discredited (by everyone, including the Israeli courts) criminal alliance with the Christian Phalange was speaking the absolute Freudian truth.

How soon they forget.

For one thing media coverage of any event in the Middle East is not exactly the definitive and instructive guide to understanding the real story. Journalists based in Lebanon are not afforded the same treatment as in Israel, given the chaotic and very dangerous conditions. As with any nation the Israelis are cognizent of international opinion but provide precise details of their victims, offer on the spot refreshments under an outdoor canopy, high tech hookups for media equipment and excellent English as a second language skills. Under such a congenial setting this makes any 2 minute sound bite presentable and somehow affable rather than the screaming images of "non descript" Arab civilians. Sure, we have Canadian citizens of Lebanese origin who are interviewed and I'll grant that CBC Newsworld gives better coverage of the victims in Lebanon than any private American TV station. But I've spent time in both countries and as we know it is such a deeply troubled region with huge survival issues that we should
take care with the images we see and the printed word we read...

...and I'm being polite here.

I certainly understand why one, in my vie, would draw this conclusion, gkam, but I think it is fundamentally incorrect-, however "unstraight forward" an issue it eaily becomes. And I'm in the middle of making "Kosher" dill pickles ironically enought, so I can't take a lot of time here, but the facts are that the so-called State of Israel was created with European and US assistance in the first place, especially British, and has for many years been entirely dependant on US financial and militarty assistance. Otherwise, it could not have successfully prosecuted its initial war of terror against Palestinians in the first place, or continue with it and the economic draining consequences of maintaining such an expensive war machine.

There are stresses and strains to the relationship, no doubt, and even the dependant party can maintain illusions about its real relationship to a larger global power (as Canada does itself vis a vis the US), but at the end of the day, it is he who pays the piper, who calls the tune. And there is no real mystery here, it is the US which pays this particular war machine piper.

And that does not mean, in the current larger Middle East situation, including Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan, that the US does not have its own level of dependancy on so-called Israel. It clearly does, as any bully does on his/her serving minions. So there is an area where the lines do blur in this relationship, no doubt.

But still, it is the US Empire that is the dominant economic and military power still, however much its dependance, and if real push comes to real shove, it is toward them that the Zionists are in the end forced to bend the knee and suckhole-, like any entity does to its boss.

On their own, without Amerika, the Zionist would soon enough perish, and nigh every man/woman and child jack Arab in the Middle East knows that. We might as well too.

My view, shared again with just about everyone in the Middle East and beyond, outside of the Neoconazis making slurping sounds under the Yankee table.

Coyote,

Read Ostrovsky.

Colin..just asking...how are you so able to make these pronouncements? Are you in Lebanon?..even journalists living in Lebanon don`t have the inside dope like you do.
C`mon share your sources.

'bringing the Wild West' so true..

the tactics are much the same..how to bring `em to their knees?

Go after their women and children.

gkam,

I think I am familiar with the theme of this book, though I have not read it.

Do you have the title? I will indeed read it, brother. I have meant to read it in the past, back near the beginning of the Iraq war, which is when I think I first heard about it, and it was often referred to, but it just kept getting shuffled on down the priority list line. :-)

A good day to you. (I will attempt to chase it down online right now, in fact.)

What a waste of time. Angus lives to spin.

One might want to read the site below, which has a condensed version of Alexander Ostrovsky's writing. I intend to read it as soon as I'm finished with canning these kosher style dill pickles.

Oops, too long a checklist and in too big a rush today.

http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/ostrovsky.html

Coyote,

I think you're on the right track. Dimantle the country of Israel and make way for a Palestinian majority to populate the region. Then, as you point out, a "final resolution can begin". (For brevity's sake, let's just refer to it as a "final solution".)

And I can't see any flaws with your plan of then creating a "secular, religious-neutral single state...for the
Palestinian majority to live alongside whatever remaining Jewish population will opt to remain in Palestine."

I don't think religion is very important to those living in the Middle East, and there are lots of countries in the area (Syria and Iran, for example) that can provide a working model for this type of government.

It's Victor Ostrovsky, I believe. I understand he has written more than one, but I read his first, By Way of Deception, (the Mossad motto).

His point is that Israel has Jews in almost every part of the world who are willing to help Israel, and they have burrowed deeply into the fabric of many nations and corporations.

Check into Israeli access to US telephone calls and the records of them.

This book is not any kind of stunning indictment of the Mossad, but a genuine look into this organization, a remembrance, really, of some of the history.

But by the end, you might just start wondering who pulls strings in Washington.

Among the speakers who addressed the crowd was Rabbi Philip Bregman, chairman of the Rabbinical Association of Vancouver, who likened Israel`s attack on Hezbollah to chemotherapy.
"You cannot stop until the cancer is eliminated," he said

Vancouver Sun Tuesday August 1 2006

Sounds like a pretty "final solution" to me.

Yes, I have been fascinated for years how the outrages of the Nazis could have spawned such self-righteous militancy in reaction.

But it's often true that we become what we oppose most stridently or fear most strongly.

Grumpy:

Is the Australian Herald Sun owned by Asper? In any case, I hardly think that the entire MSM has been pro-Israeli during this conflict. Seems more like Israel is being regularly condemned for hitting civilians, whether accidently or intentionally, while little or no condemnation is given for intentional targeting of civilians by Hezbollah.

Coyote:

Whether you like it or not, the creation of Israel was approved by the UN. Previous to that, the League of Nations gave control of Palestine to the British, and this included the establishment of a Jewish homeland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine

It is the Arabs who disragarded the UN resolution for the establishment of Israel (and also Palestine) by starting a war to destroy Israel.

Israel is there LEGALLY, therefore it does have the right to defend itself. As for thiefs stealing property and driving the original owners out, perhaps it's time for you to leave Canada, since this is all Indian land stolen by whites (assuming you're white, of course).

Vancouver Sun Tuesday August 1 2006

Sounds like a pretty "final solution" to me." wrote bob the cat.

Yup. Sounds pretty much like a Zionist "final solution" to the "Palestinian Problem" to me.

It makes clear who the real anti-semites are, doesn't it? (The Palestinians, along with the Arabs generally, being a "Semite" people themselves, in fact. And the Jews over the last three thousand years having become less Semites themselves and more European-, at least pretty diluted Semites.)

But then, one cannot really expect anyone of a neoconazi persuasion to be aware of anything too subtle or accurate.

Actually it is owned by a subsidiary of News corp. IE: Owned by the pro-American pro-zionist racist Rupert Murdoch. The same guy who owns "Faux" news.

So when one side hits children, it should not be reported, and it should be forgiven because it was accidental, but when the other side kidnaps soldiers, they are a threat to civilians?

So when the "Ay-rabs" go against a UN resolution they are terrorists. And when the Israelis do it it is because tey are freedom fighters? While we're talking about UN resolutions here, what about the resolutions that Israel has violated or ignored, too numerous to list here, but can be found on this page http://www.jatonyc.org/UNresolutions.html

Cowboy diplomacy folks. Shoot first, ask questions later.

It's funny though. In the last 15 years, Americans have invaded Iraq for 1) Invading their neighbours and 2) Amassing weapons of mass destruction.

Yet Israel has done both these things, and the Americans don't seem to mind.

Before any more of you stick your foot in your mouth, pay attention to the latest developments that indicate many of the so called atrocities by Israel, have been faked by Hizbollah.
It will start reaching MSM very soon.

Yes, IAMC, and Guantanamo, Bagram and Abu Ghraib, as well!

It's so difficult to imagine living constantly in a state of fear - not knowing whether military planes will drop bombs on your home or if a suicide bomber is in the restaurant where you are dining.

One thing is certain, though: no matter your political leaning or what you believe in theory, if your family's life is in jeopardy, you can't really know how you would react unless you have firsthand experience discussing these issues in an online forum.

And that's why I have so much respect for the authoritative tone of Tyee readers who can definitively cast blame on one side.

Actually, I believe it's the Chinese and Saudi banks who are bankrolling the US war budget right now; the Saudis because it's in their interest to keep non-Sunni fundamentalists (i.e. the Shia) from threatening their own hold on Mecca and the Maghrib, the Chinese because it's good business to let your competition destroy itself on futile causes....

It's the US who will eventually have to pay the piper. And it may have to pay in Euros, renminbi, and rials...

The Chinese banks by the way extend loans based on 1% of assets/capital (their own, that is), unlike other banking systems which extend loans on 10% of assets/capital. This is part of what brought down the Five Tigers; but in those cases they didn't have the political clout to hold off the IMF from calling margin. It's all a house of cards, and it's recipe for disaster given the escalation of US indebtedness to China because of all these wars....

In Philip Mansell's Constantinople, City of the World's Desire he points out, as have other Great Power and Ottoman historians concerning the Eastern Question, that the day the Sultans had to start borrowing money from Britain and France (1820s) was the effective end of their sovereignty and ability to act without the permission of foreign powers, and led inevitably to the dissolution of the Sultanate. Sobering stuff if you consider how much the "sole surviving superpower" has mortgaged itself to its main competition....

One factor in the Mid-East right now, in a pure-geopolitical theory sort of way, is that the two superpowers with vested interests in the region (the US and Russia, still a superpower if not in actual name) are on the same side, more or less; i.e. anti-Islamic. If they weren't, the powderkeg we're all watching could involve a "launch state"; China's too far out of the action to care (for now), and as noted is more willing to watch the US and the Islamic world go at each other's throats, and wait for the aftermath to pick up the pieces. Long-range vision and all that, which the US could use a good dose of....

"...the Chinese because it's good business to let your competition destroy itself on futile causes...." wrote Skookum.

Actually a very astute observation. Certainly the Chinese hold the paper on enough US debt that if they really wanted to, they could damage it significantly.

No doubt Capitalist China has its own fish to fry in the particular fire. Likewise,

Israel, I read somewhere in the last few days, apparently get most of its oil supply from Russia, without which it would be pressed to conduct this occupation war as well-, which is their stake in Iraq by the by. (They would like to get away from dependancy on Russian oil, and have dearly been urging the US to create the conditions that would bring them more oil cheaply and directly from Iraq.

The problem is, of course, the Iraqi Resistance keeps blowing up the oil infrastructure, and Syria is an obstacle. Which suggests, watch for Syria rather than Iran to be either bought of with US largesse or, the next WOT (war on terrah) target of the US Empire-Zionist/Jewish Nazi "Axis of Evil."

These anti-Semite Jews and Amerikans will go to any length to line their own pockets and kill Arab women and children.They've already made Gaza into one big Auschwitz.

gkam, I don't think you will ever be able to extract your foot from your mouth, once the truth comes out about this theatre Hizbollah is creating.
Make sure you hang around for your humiliation.

Yes IAMC, and I suppose is was Hizbollah that shelled a UN observation post for 6 hours before finishing it off with a US built precision guided bomb.
Those crafy Arab devils.

...but 65 per cent of Americans think the U.S. should not take sides.

In addition, 58 per cent think it is not their country's business to try to resolve the situation...

… and 87 per cent of respondents believe the U.S. military should stay out of the war.

This American poll surprises me. Could it be that the Americans are becoming less agressive? Oh, I forgot - it is only the White House, in this pillar of democracy, that is controlled by Israel.

ARConn:

Perhaps this is the reason why the UN post got shelled:

http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2006/07/international-peacekeepers.html

Colin,

Blaming Lebanon for not protecting their population from Israeli bombs?

I hate to tell ya this but Canada's population would suffer pretty bad if somebody started bombing us too. Yet I would doubt the world press would blame us for not having a shelter prepared for everyone.

[

]Although I was more meaning my observation in terms of what used to be called "the Great Game" in the days of Britain vs. Russia, i.e. every small local war or struggle is simply a piece on the global chessboard, which as we know is now more up-close-and-personal than mere physical distance would seem to indicate; and also in the context of Sun Tzu's The Art of War (though von Clausewitz makes exactly the same observation about letting one's enemies destroy each other rather than dealing with it yourself).

But here's another factor to consider: The country with the largest Islamic population is, as we know, Indonesia. Next on the list is Pakistan, after which is (of all things) India (at over 175 million Muslims); India is another big but silent player in the game that's too deep underway to put a halt to, IMO. Creepily like the dominos falling in August 1914, in fact...

Fourth? Well, hard to say exactly because the PRC doesn't keep accurate and reliable religion stats, or any other stats for that matter, and of course are busy repressing religion and killing off religionists whenever possible. But at an estimate of 3-5% of the PRC's population being Muslim (as per Wikipedia resource) pages, that's up to just over 65 million. In the same order of population as Turkey and Iran and Egypt and so on; and it could be higher; the official number, by the way, is under 15 million....

Needless to say, the PRC is as worried about Islamism as anybody else is (who's not Islamist); but rather than engage them directly and risk escalating Islamic fundamentalism in Eastern Turkestan, or among the Hui (Han Moslems, basically), as well as alienating potential trade and military powers like Pakistan and Indonesia...well, let the US take care of it and burn itself out in the process.

Sure, I'm concerned about the immediate action on the ground in Lebanon as anyone else; but I've read enough history and geopolitics and strategic theory to know there's a lot more at stake than just Hezbollah vs. Israel....

Then there's Turkey, a silent ally of Israel and also very wary of fundamentalism. Somewhere quite a while ago there was a discussion I saw, form the NY Times I think, or the Herald-Tribune (when it was still a good paper) on a lot of the MidEast political scenarios having to do mostly with water supplies for Israel; Turkey has the water, and Israel needs security on the intervening turf to get it to the Chosen Land safely. Hold on to your hats if for some reason Turkey gets involved in all this; it's been a while since they made military inroads into the rest of the Islamic World and MidEast; they're a big factor, perhaps bigger than Iran or Saudi Arabia. And let's just hope the fundamentalists don't take firm hold there, i.e. to unbuckle the military's support for an ersatz Western political system and social/cultural values....

The Globe published a poll today with this telling headline:

Only 32% Back P.M. on Mideast
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20060801.POLL01/TPStory/Front

It seems Harper's out of step with Canadians on the Middle East, with his Bush-like Israel boosting of Israel's right to "defend" itself (...and then some)Most of us think we should stay neutral, not pick sides.

...Curious how the CanWest commissioned poll of Canadians, that Angus Reid cites (and links to) has an apparently differing poll result to the Globe's:

Harper’s position is fair and balanced
and completely appropriate - 45% of respondents

32% vs. 45%. Quite a discrepancy, I'd say.

Should we be surprised Canwest's poll shows the best marks for Harper?

Canada will never be `neutral` when dealing with terrorists. Never in the past and never in the future.

All of this could end if the US would tell Israel - "go back to your '67 borders, pay reparations to the Palestinians. Do this now, or no more aid, period." The fact that they don't do this, indicates to me - as Coyote says - that it is in the interests of the US empire to prop up an aggressive and racist state like Israel. But to me it is insane. After all there is no oil in Israel. If I was an American I'd want to let them hang out to dry and cozy up to the Arabs, rather than pissing them off. All very bizarre.

Anarcho does not understand that this a real case of the tail wagging the dog.

Both sides are fighting for a piece of dirt that they believe god gave them. If you could remove that from the equation this could be solved. But, since both sides will die to protect this dirt, there has to be a winner and a loser in this. Fortunately, peace for the individual and his/her family can only occur one way: leave for greener pastures. I hear they are hiring in Alberta.

Well, I find that hard to believe, as you probably know. For me the problem is how it could be true. And this is where it gets to a part I really don't like - because it smacks too much of the old anti-semitic charge that Jews are running the world. Don't get me wrong, gkam, I am NOT accusing you of this - there is far too many accusations of anti-semitism these days, for me to do the same. We see them pop up every time someone criticizes the zionists in any way. Anyway, I will check Coyote's link

If 77% of Canadians think Canada should be neutral, in a conflict between a liberal democracy and armed terrorists, it only reinforces my disdain for Canadians. But to give them a break, we have never been involved in " foreign policy ". And they have a disdain for all things " Middle East "
It's going to be hard for us to be totally against US foreign policy, every time. They aren't always wrong.
I don't expect this crisis to negatively effect the way Quebec voters.
Peter McKay said 'Hizbollah is like a cancer' He is not backing down, nor is Harper. If a leader rules by the results of polls, he becomes a liberal.
Besides, public opinion has been colored by the theatre that the Hizbollah are creating by killing their own women and children.
It's one thing to be anti-American, it's another thing to be an apologist for terrorists.
What happens if your wishes for the destruction of Israel comes true?
Is that it?
No, it's just the beginning. You will be next, and if you don't see this, you are the enemy.

anarcho,

I am not antisemitic. But I am slowly becoming anti-Zionist. I think the establishment of Israel was a terrible blunder - is there anything the British did right?

Well gkam, they did Canada, so judge for yourself.

maxwell,

I don't recall us attacking Ireland or the USA because of the IRA even though the IRA wouldn't have been able to have the stockpiles they did if it wasn't for the money raised in places like Boston. Come to think of it we even traded with the USA when they were funding terrorists to attack Nicaragua.

IAMC,

Uh huh, Has Hexbollah attacked anyone outside of the Middle East? Do you think it might have something to do with Israel's legitimacy?

In the meantime,glad to hear that Canada supports people killing 35 kids in one shot. But then that was days ago so I guess we've all moved on.

Bobb999 and versoline your both a couple of fock all agist, claim to know every thing, but in actuality, know fock all.

IAMC sez:

AND yet, my clueless friend, you're the first fella who crows to the high heavens every time you find a poll that seems to point toward some concurrence between public opinion and your own jaundiced and prejudicial and selfish take on things.

Guess your verdict doesn’t count if it happens to favour Mr. Harper and Condi’s best friend Peter Mackay.

How come? Short memory, Alzheimer’s, or just plain ignorance?

Woody: What the hell is a "fock all agist",
exactly? Reads like gibberish to me.

How do you explain the 13 point discrepancy between the Globe and Canwest polls, I wonder?

Maxwell,

You are right. We should not be neutral towards Zionist and US Empire terrorism. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

"Crush Zionist and US Empire terrorism!" I assume you mean. :-)

Though it does run counter to this country's empire bootlicking history, no doubt-, first for the British Empire and now for the US Empire, and everything they say and do.

We are only better than the Zionists of Occupied Palestine insofar as our Native aboriginals suffered serious population depletion due to diseases we introduced, which the neoconservatives of those days assisted, as necessary, with smallpox infused blankets etc.

The Amerikans near extirpated their Native populations, as well,though by other means plus disease, of course.

Today, they are all more or less securely ensconed in their/our versions of the Gaza Strip. Though they are evidencing some restlesness with the dead-end, going nowhere, endless poverty lot to which we have assigned them as well.

So yes, we "in spirit" like the Zionists, no doubt, would have likely no less blood dripping from our hands had the circumstances of history been a little different. Even at that, we have the crushing of the Riel Rebellion, which sought a just solution in the NA West for Natives and Metis.

So, unless the Natives come back in say 3000 years, like the Jews of Europe and other parts of the world vis a vis Palestine, to reclaim their disinherited land again, we should be alright. At least until then, eh?

Let the fuking future and their generations take care of themselves. We will be well out of reach by then, presumably-, unless there really is a future day of the Second Coming of the Lord, and the earth gives back up its dead to be judged. Ya think? :-)

These right wingnuts are such a pack of intellectual fuktards. Where is Dr. Mengela when we could really use him?

This crew have about the depth of a saucer of water, and salivate whenever Amerika takes another dump. Somebody really needs to teach them to use a spoon at least, instead of just their hands.

Yes G West, I am a fan of polls, there is no doubt about it.
I like democracy. Wherever it takes us.
This war between Hizbollah and Israel, is a fight for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
The happingling part is American.

I'm doubtful of any alleged plan to import Russian or Iraqian oil by pipeline into Israel. Oil tankers work fine and Israel already has a reliable supplier of oil. Russia has no shortage of buyers for oil, neither does
Iraq.

Officially where Israel gets its oil is a state secret as they are under an Arab country oil boycott. Unofficially though it's Norway. Before Norway did though they consulted with the PLO, which is how Norway got more involved with diplomatic peace initiatives as they were communicating with both sides already when they were not speaking with each other. Secret talks between Israel and the PLO led to the 1993 Oslo accord.

More details here in a lengthy website:

http://www.dep.no/ud/english/doc/reports/032041-220003/hov006-bn.html

Since then Norway has also been involved with other diplomatic initiatives including getting involved with ceasefire initiatives in Sri Lanka.

IAMC
SO I guess it's just plain ignorance then. We shouldn't expect anything you write to be either consistent, logical or to make any sense whatsoever.
I'd kind of hoped it might be something else that was going in that head of yours.

So Norway is supplying the Jews with oi ?
What's going on here?
Love Norway since I had to study then in the 60's.
They have fjords, did you know ?

gkam, I read that link about Ostrovsky. Pretty brutal stuff, I admit. Thing is I can't believe that Mossad subversion could lead to the sort of total control of US foreign policy visa vis Israel. There has to be active collusion, or a combination of interests. Here's an idea. The worst thing for the US military industrial complex is an outbreak of peace in the world. They have been milking the US tax payer for decades with their booga-booga scary puppet the USSR, which is now gone. However, Israel keeps the Middle East pot stirred, creating a situation where they can sell arms and milk the American people some more. Combine this with the ultra imperialists who want to make sure that Europe and China don't threaten US global dominance. What better way than to keep the oil supply under threat? Combine this with the psychopathic hate cults in the US who want a war in the Middle East cause they think Armageddon will happen and Jesus is going to beam them up. Stir in a very large dollop of Mossad and you have US inflexible support for Israel, no matter what crimes it commits.

anarcho, you are a nut case. You seem to be saying " Christian right " values will dominate this discussion site.
I couldn't disagree more.
But, what is Christian right, ( right now? )
This dispute between Israel and the rest, is very complex. Please let us all temper this discussion.

Liberty? In Israel? Oy Vey. Looks like you've been drinking the Fox news Kool-Aid IAMC.

Archbishop Desmond Tutu (A guy who knows more about apartheid than Canadians know about hockey) actually called on Israel to stop its apartheid-like treatment of Palestinians as second class citizens.

From its origins in the 19th century, Zionism centered on the idea of creating a specifically Jewish state in which Jews would be protected and privileged over non-Jews.

By means of the 1947-48 war, Israel took over even greater expanses of land and forcibly expelled about 750,000 Palestinians. This travesty was the basis for the official founding of the Israeli (or should I say ZIONIST) state in 1948.

From 1948 to 1966, the Palestinians within Israel lived under explicit military rule.

They were considered a military threat to the Israeli state, and they were ruled under a completely different set of laws than the Jewish population.

After 1966, military rule was lifted, but it was replaced by a set of Jim Crow-like laws designed to discriminate against Arabs in Israel. According to Adalah, an Arab rights organization, today there are at least 20 laws that specifically provide unequal rights and obligations based on what the Israelis call nationality, which in Israel is defined on the basis of religion.

Israelis must carry a card which identifies them as either a Jew, a Muslim, or a Christian. All non-Jews are second class citizens. The Israeli Supreme Court has dismissed virtually all cases which dealt with equal rights for Arab citizens.

All Israeli citizens, including Palestinians, have the right to vote in elections for members of the Knesset (parliament) and for the prime minister. But not all rights are citizenship rights. Other rights are defined as nationality rights, and are reserved for Jews only.

Jews from anywhere in the world can travel to Israel, declare citizenship, and be granted all the privileges of being Jewish that are denied to Palestinians who have lived in the area for hundreds of years.

Now which part of this Middle Eastern Theocracy is "liberal" or shows "liberty?"

anarcho
I think US/Israeli ties are tight for other reasons - not least the management of information. For example, it is pretty much a given here in the West that the presence of Hezbollah men near the target at Qana is being used as a justification for the disastrous bombing of civilians by the IDF.

While this was originally claimed by the Israeli Air Force in the initial offical reaction in Israel - and it was this story that was mostly picked up here in the West - almost no one here has followed up and reported that Israeli sources are no longer claiming this at all. In fact, as this story in Ha’aretz shows, the opposite may well be the case.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/745185.html
When the facts are censored, one way or another, the public can hardly be expected to react to what would otherwise be an important factor in forming public opinion about what is, and has been, actually going on in Lebanon.

If you’re interested, I can post links to the original stories – the ones that started the excuse-making program in Western papers.

I aint drinkin any FOX cool aid Tom Joad.
I am an independant thinker, who is not impressed by you.
The Jews made the desert blossim;
The Americans do the same thing in California.
Drive across the border, betwwen USA and Mexico, and you will see.
I am not puttimg down Mexicans.

Tom Joad
I think IAMC gets his Kool-Ade right from the source - the old Rush Limbaugh - and from another open-mouthed empty-brained idiot on an Edmonton talk show whose maunderings I listened to once or twice just to get an idea of how big a klutz he actually was. No need for him to go to Fox. He also is a big fan of Ezra Levant and the Western Standard. Proto-Fascists all, in my view.

Of course he has no idea what proportion of the Israeli budget comes direct from the US of A and has done so for the past 40 odd years; he doesn’t realize that without US support and funding there would be no Israel in its present state and he further has no clue about the fiscal mess that the state of California finds itself in currently - nor the role in Californian agriculture played by Mexican 'illegal' labourers who do the actual work of greening the state for a fraction of a living wage without either health care or any social safety net at all. There’s a move down there to call them ‘guest workers’ these days and to extend a welcoming hand to them as permanent residents after they’ve done 17 years of ‘guest work’ for their American masters. He wouldn’t call that a form of slavery, but I would.

He doesn't put down Mexicans of course, he's far too busy putting down himself and destroying what shreds of credibility he has left.

"anarcho, you are a nut case. You seem to be saying " Christian right " values will dominate this discussion...

Where do I say that? You take one sentence and ignore everything else I say. I do not reduce US support for Israel to the "Christian Zionist" hate cults.

Lebanon has a wealth of water resources in its numerous rivers, its underground aquifers, and heavy winter rains, but the country faces a perennial shortage of water. It could one day meet all its own needs and be an exporter of hundreds of millions of cubic meters (mcm) of water to its parched neighbors, but many buildings in Beirut once again this summer are without running water. Donors have spent over $600 million since the end of the civil war on renovating the antiquated water supply networks, but a USAID-funded study estimates that more than half of the distribution systems still need to be overhauled. Irrigation systems are in equally bad shape, use mostly inefficient flood methods, and reach less than half of the potential agricultural areas. USAID has funded almost $6 million in potable water and irrigation projects in the past decade.http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/epic/internet/inimr-ri.nsf/en/gr108528e.html

Just as Israel efectively annexed the Golan Heights:
http://www.golan.org.il/water.html

and the West Bank:
http://www.mideastweb.org/westbankwater.htm

So it is driving into Lebanon; all in the name of "national security" or course................

It would be no different than the US deciding to occupy Alberta and diverting the Saskatchewan river system, in the name of "national security"..........

Oops!

http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/epic/internet/inimr-ri.nsf/en/gr108528e.html

Verso & Bob the cat

Perhaps you should look at the state of Lebanon before this crisis to answer the question you posed to me, most Lebanese consider their current president a toady of the Syrians.

Frank on holidays (aka lucky dog!)

Considering Lebanon is a country that has been heavily involved in conflicts and live in a region full of strife, one would think that a government would take the steps to protect it’s citizens. Hezbollah spent the 100’s of millions they get from Iran building bunkers for their weapons and TV station but neglected the people they claim to protect.

Your right though our Civil Defense system is a shadow of what it used to be and what bunkers there were have been bulldozed over. However we do have a PEP program that could be built up.

Frank the IRA mostly confined it’s attacks to the UK, Hezbollah killed close to 100 people in one attack in Argentina, plus many other places.

Plus how was Israel to know that people were sheltering there, the only people that would are the Hezbollah who used the area for launching rocket, actually 150 rockets came from that area, plus there was a delay of over 7 hrs between the attack and collapse of the building.

Anarcho
Israel has already given up the Sinai, pulled out of Lebanon and now Gaza and has been willing to give up most of the West bank, what do they get for this? Rockets and suicide bombs. Both Hezbollah and Hamas make it very clear that their goal is not to live in peace beside Israel but to destroy it, your solution is no solution, but will encourage more attacks.

Rotlin
There is still parts of a pipeline in existence that was built to run oil from Iran to Haifa but never used for that purpose.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/eastmed.html

Tom Joad
What you describe for Israel is also common place in every Islamic country and in fact the Koran stipulates that non-Muslims who are considered to be “people of the book” must also pay a tax for the privilege of practicing their religion. If your religion is not in the book, then you can be tried and punished for practicing it in land considered holy to Muslims.

For anyone interested in a good article on the US hate cults disguised as Christians
http://www.antiwar.com/utley/?articleid=9456

One could argue that Arabs living in Israel are second class citizens, but that is also the argument used by virtually every minority groupin all countries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Israeli

How well were/are Jews treated in Muslim countries? How many Muslim countries have Jews as 15%+ of their population?

"In our struggle against apartheid, the great supporters were Jewish people. They almost instinctively had to be on the side of the disenfranchised, of the voiceless ones, fighting injustice, oppression and evil. I have continued to feel strongly with the Jews. I am a patron of a Holocaust Center in South Africa. I believe Israel has a right to secure borders.

"What is not so understandable, not justified, is what it did to another people to guarantee its existence. I've been very deeply distressed in my visit to the Holy Land; it reminded me so much of what happened to us black people in South Africa. I have seen the humiliation of the Palestinians at checkpoints and roadblocks, suffering like us when young white police officers prevented us from moving about. My heart aches. I say, Why are our memories so short?"

Perhaps if some Palestinians stopped the disconcerting habit of strapping on bombs and blowing themselves up in public places there wouldn't be a need for so many police checks.

Colin
I haven't got the reference at my fingertips, but I believe the Buenos Aires bombing was done by the Iranians and not the Lebanese. I'll check my files later and see if I can find the data from the Argentinean court finding. I had a long argument about this with Robert Fulford some years ago when he was making the same claim you have.

I also notice you’ve totally neglected to address Israeli complicity with the Christian Phalange and Ariel Sharon’s indictment for Sabra and Shatila. Why?

For anyone who has a similar blind spot about Israel, the information is available. A good starting point is this article from Global Policy Forum:
http://www.globalpolicy.org/intljustice/general/2001/sab&shat.htm

Outstanding comments, Tom Load. Which is the demarcation line that separates actually thinking folks from these IAMC style "Yankee/Zionist propaganda regurgitators." It's a pleasure to read your stuff, from which I almost always learn something. (Indeed there has been a sudden blossoming of persons with detailed knowledge of the Middle East and its people on this site-, reflecting the value of "scholarly specialization", no doubt. :-)

This guy though is a real intellectual and political knuckle-dragger. Woooeeee!

gkam,

This site I posted, not the book for sure, but a simple condensing of Alexander Ostovsky's views, while a pretty good insight into the Zionist/Mossad view of the world, at least insofar as how these types see themselves, is interesting stuff. And, no doubt, there is a huge Jewish, pro-Zionist influence over US imperial policy, and their huge "Jewish friends of Israel" network within especially, but not exclusively the United $tates, gives them a powerful edge in the exercise of this political influence. And they have been very successful at it. (Canadian Jews have been successful at their own policy influence in this pro-Zionist direction as well, and have much "influenced" State policy here as well, I suggest.)

At the same time, I don't think there is any doubt either that, in large part, like anarcho has noted above, there has been a tolerance of this on the part of US (and Canadian) ruling class circles as a consequence of a "convergence of interests" between the US Empire's "world domination" ambition, and the role so-called Israel plays for them in keeping the Middle East and the Arabs destabilized and off balance, and factionalized.

And if one pays attention to the United States, at a number of levels of public opinion, there is a particularly and increasingly vocal "resentment" being expressed towards this overweening and excessive influence of Amerika's "Jewish Lobby". And as the "Peace Movement" within Amerika grows going forward, I suggest this issue is destined to be raised more and more-, is already by anti-war activists, even around just Iraq.

All that said, I do see where you are coming from and why you would think that so-called Israel and the US "Jewish Lobby" is the tail that wags the US Empire dog. I just have a different read of the evidence, even of Ostovsky, thus far, and suggest as I've already said, that this is more this same "convergence of interests" phenomena at work again.

Continued next post...

From Previous Post...

On the other hand, the day this convergence of interests collapses, if and when it does, and placating the Arab Nation becomes more important than "utilizing Israel", I think one is likely to find that a new set of US politicians might be just suddenly more willing to cast the Zionist State aside like old news, and make the necessary policy correction.

We shall have to see the final outcome of this period first, however. Assuming it does not lead to a disasterous World War and nuclear consequences, of course.

Note re Israel's Oil Supply,

Indeed Israel does get some modest oil supply from Norway and a number of smaller states, but the preponderance of its supply comes, as I've stated, according to the best detailed evidence I can secure, from Russia, as I earlier claimed.

Read:

http://www.slate.com/id/2145704/

From which also comes this observation:

I apologize for the length, but that will be it for the day.

Perhaps you should look at the state of Lebanon before this crisis to answer the question you posed to me, most Lebanese consider their current president a toady of the Syrians.

Look at what colin? Do you have source for your claims or not? Are you making these statements based on a hunch? Some poll you think is valid? Have you been there or do you have some Lebanese friends telling you this?

You claimed the poll is a fabrication, you claimed to to know how the Lebanese feel. For all I know, you may be right. I'm just questioning the certainty with which you speak.

Stan Asked

Your question made me think of Morocco.
In Morocco, Sunni Moslems represent the majority. The Jewish community represents a mere 7,000 people.

I once had a co-worker, a Jewish woman who had been to Morocco. She said:
"It's awful the way the Jews there treat
the Arabs. They treat them terribly".

I didn't ask her to elaborate, but I'm picturing a wealthy Jewish community which can get away with treating Arab domestic help like "niggers", and discriminating against other Arabs in other dealings.

In Morocco at least, the minority Jews may be abusive of the majority Arabs, not the other way around.

Which is NOT to say that certain Moslem communities elsewhere don't discriminate against others outside their own group.
Discrimination, is unfortunately, a human trait. Canada, and Canadians have had this trait for most of our history (vis a vis our indigenous peoples, for instance). It remains to this day among many.

According to a Globe article today, Is Jewish Support for Liberals Eroding? http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20060802.LIBERALS02/TPStory/Front, it looks like the Liberals are being lobbied hard by many of their traditional Jewish supporters to join Harper in his nearly unqualified support for Israel's right to "defend" itself (and then some...)
Some like Ignatieff have already jumped on the "bomb the Hell out of Lebanon camp".

I think my money's on Bob Rae.

I don't know Bob. The last few years - before he was running for leadership - he's been espousing 'neo-con' ideology.
He may be exactly the same as Ignatieff.

If the Liberals don't elect a progressive leader they'll suffer at the polls. Many people are not going to be fooled so readily and are deeply concerned with geo-politics at this time.

I'm less sure about the capacity of people to be fooled, though I would certainly wish that you are right. Nonetheless, I do think you have Bob Rae pegged about right.

Bob is smooth and "cute", as in tricky, as seems to go with the being a politician territory, but he is certainly not all that he has in the past posed himself to be. I don't think, at rock bottom, he is really that much different from Ignatieff either.

I sure as hell wouldn't "trust" him. He is the classic centre-right shape shifter, along with Ignatieff and virtually all the current crop who dominate Canadian "colonial" politics. Closet Conservatives, waiting their turn to serve the US Empire and the homegrown ruling class better, the lot of them.

Bobb999,

You start off great:

"I once had a co-worker, a Jewish woman who had been to Morocco. She said:
"It's awful the way the Jews there treat
the Arabs. They treat them terribly".

I didn't ask her to elaborate, but I'm picturing a wealthy Jewish community which can get away with treating Arab domestic help like "niggers", and discriminating against other Arabs in other dealings."

Well-researched. Excellent sample size. Obvious conclusion. Very much worth posting.

But then I feel you stumble:

"Which is NOT to say that certain Moslem communities elsewhere don't discriminate against others outside their own group.
Discrimination, is unfortunately, a human trait. Canada, and Canadians have had this trait for most of our history (vis a vis our indigenous peoples, for instance). It remains to this day among many."

Here you appear weak. Tradition in this forum dictates that you blame one side. This makes the discussions easier to follow and makes clear the fact that there is never any gray area when it comes to war.

Doing this is easy. You can either:
1) Ignore transgressions from the side you are supporting;
2) Defend the transgressions by citing an example of a transgression by your opponent;
3) Once you become skilled, actually blame your opponent for your side's transgressions.

Don't worry - you'll get the hang of it.

Despite popular opinion in Canada the Prime Minister is doing the "right" thing by backing Israel. Really this is common sense. Israel is a sovereign nation. Naturally we Canada, also a sovereign nation should support a natural ally. Remember, Israel did not start this war with Hezbollah, they were grossly provoked. They has every right to protect themselves and fight for the soldiers safe return. Prime Minister Harper has earned my respect for standing with Isreal unwavering. He does not lick his finger and bend with the direction of the wind, ie/ polls. He is not a spinless leader like our former Libers PM's. Steven Harper stands in good company with the leaders of Germany, France, Britian and the United States. I applaude his non wavering stance on this issue.

Amen to that Clear Cut!!

right field, I will pose this question to you as I am still looking for a repsonse from the neocon collective: If harpo is so spineless, then why does he NOT let the parliamentary media ask questions without the PMO's approval?

And Right Field - yay!! Poor old Liberal Party cannot make up it`s mind where it stands. Confirming it`s stance as `interminable equivocators`

Clear Cut:

Stan's question merely evoked a memory which I thought made an interesting anecdote, which I then thought appeared to illustrate a larger theme, that is, ethnocentric discrimination is an unfortunate human trait... It was a riff on thoughts of a moment,that's all.

As to your point that I "blame one side"... The statistical evidence points to Israel's actions over decades as having been much more threatening and deadly to human life than Arab actions.(The tally of Arab casualties vs. Israeli shows a far greater no. of dead Arabs). Last I looked, the running tally shows at least a 10 to 1 ratio of dead Arabs to dead Israelis in the current conflict. Bombing a known civilian area and killing 100 civilians appears a greater crime to me than the killing of 10 civilians even if it's by a suicide bomber.

If you think because I believe Israel deserves more blame (largely based on death stats, and power flaunting),that this means I do not also blame Arab extremists' use of suicide bombing, well, you're quite wrong. I think any action that kills innocents, whether it's deliberate targeting (Hamas, Hezbollah)or due to indifference to "collateral damage" as well as deliberate targeting of civilian areas (Israel),
is despicable and indefensible, on both sides.

I blame Israel more only because Israel continues to commit greater crimes.

I don't know if you ascribe to the belief
that those Arab casualties over decades at the hands of Israel are all the Arabs' own fault("blame the victim"). But if you do, I'd say it would be rather you who is blaming one side in an irrational, unjust fashion.

I say look at the casualty stats, in deciding who deserves more blame for crimes against civilians.

Fingers pointed, suggestions made as to who started what, behind all the discrimination, wars poverty, terrorism, the driving force is, ...... “Religion”.

"Religion" is an excuse, not a driving force.

Red RG and Coyote: On Bob Rae: I'm not his biggest booster or anything. I was just pleased to see him take less hawkish stands on foreign affairs issues than Iggy and some others. For instance, Ignatieff backs our Afstan mission. Rae has been clear he does not. I haven't seen much "shape shifting" from Rae on the middle east lately.

I just saw a new article quoting Iggy as now shifting his shape on Lebanon though. Today he's calling for ceasefire, while saying "last week was too soon for a cease fire". Yeah, right.

I agree with you RRG that the Libs need to choose a leader leaning to the left to clearly differentiate the party from
the Harpatives. If not Rae, who?
I'm certainly open to alternatives to Rae. Rae also reportedly as perhaps the most bilingual of anglophones running, and is liked in Quebec. This could potentially help the party win the next election. If the Libs choose someone who does not appeal to Quebec voters, no matter how progressive the person is, it may just help Harper hold on to power.

I understand, Bob999.

We are caught in a political place in this country where we are all trying to find the lesser evils. :-) And there are too few about.

A good day to you.

right field
We should support Israel because it is a sovereign nation?

Why not then, if that's the operative criteria support:
(a) Serbia;
(b) Iraq;
(c) Afghanistan;
(d) The Sudan;
(e) Cuba;
(f) Liberia;
(g) DO I need to continue.

You'll have to come up with a better rationale than that I'm afraid.

Obviously I could go on.
As to your other point, that Hebollah was the agressor. Are you sure about that?

Given the spin the Israelis and the US, not to mention out own pee wee rambo have put on this situation I wouldn't be so sure.

You might be interested to know that the 911 commission in the US has recently revealled that they didn't (and presumably don't) trust the 'story' the Pentagon spun about that little incident either.

You might want to investigate a little more deeply before you make up your mind.

I must respond to those that blame religion for all the terrible things that happened did religion have to with the millions killed by Stalin? The millions murdered by Mao? Those millions done away by Pol Pot ? ( I hope I spelled that right )
You get the point?

IAMC, I don't think that anyone is blaming religion for ALL the bad things in the world. Anyway, a better expression would be to blame ideology, for religion is a sub set of ideology. Or another way of looking at it would be to say that ideologies like Nazism, Stalinism and secular Neoconnery are secular religions. Ideology, is of course, a narrow set of ideas into which the ideologue attempts to force the world, which is the reason why so much damage is done. Sometimes the term "ideology" is used when people mean "theory" or "political position" but I am not using it in this milder sense.

Essentially, ideology is reification. Processes involving living human beings are turned into things by ideological reification. Thus mass murder, to "protect the national interest" or to "stamp out the terrorist threat" or "eliminate the anarcho-fascist-Trotskyite Gestapo agents wrecking the Five Year Plan" etc and etc.

Well Bob, I hope you're right. The trouble is he knows how to talk like a progressive Canadian. Many of our neo-cons started off as not even Conservative but because of their individual 'tragic flaws' they were vulnerable to the neo-con cult. Also, he really has a bad rep in Ontario. Still, people might think he is being genuine and perhaps he is. My nose is sniffing though. I'll be voting NDP anyway. Emerson taught us that and the NDP are well positioned in BC.

I think Coyote has it right when he describes the dilemma we are in. And, one can't believe a word out of their mouths. At least the NDP mostly stand for what they claim.

As for 'backing' Israel, this position puts Israel in the undesirable position of not being able to save face later if they need to do so. Having a grown-up country to broker a deal for your retreat can be a mighty fine ace in the hole of your tactical arsenal if one needs to retreat to fight another day.

These people - the neo-cons within Israel and without - are really hurting it. They seem to think they will be able to crush the Arab population by the US might and forget everything history has shown from the beginning of time. Not to mention the pain and suffering they are contributing to in the world and on ppeople whether it is economic, or deadly. This is very crude, but the term that comes to mind observing these clowns is 'wanker'. No other word seems to encompass their incredible immaturity combined with such unbelievable stupidity.

And, one would have to be blind not to understand that the neo-cons want to create a major war before they lose the influence they now hold in Washington which will take place this November. They want to embroil us all in WW3 because they think that we will not be able to disentangle ourselves by then and that is what this is really about no matter who did what to whom 'first'.

Did you see the barbecue held for Democrat hopeful John Kerry ?
Only a handful or people showed up. It was embarrassing.
This Party has decided to go left big time, and it's not selling.
I don't think the so called " American Neocon Empire " is going away anytime soon.
Their opposition, Dem's, have no original ideas.
Don't hang your hat on the Decline of the American Empire.
Even though you might wish this to happen.

RRG:
No, I'm not absolutely certain about Rae at all, and you're right he still likely has lots of baggage with Ontarians. Lesser of evils maybe, as Coyote said something about. Potential neocon, though? I sure hope not! I like to think neocons are are on the run now. Their blueprint to make the world in their image at the point of a gun, has blown up in their faces. Wolfowitz and Perle, two of the most rabid architects of the neocon philosophy, have been banished from the White House inner circle, and the W.H. itself. Some of their star theorists are now recanting too like Francis Fukiyama (if I have the name right).
*******************************
IAMC: Senator Joe Lieberman,Democrat, a hawk on Iraq, an apologist for Bush, is in the fight of his political life in a primary which occurs this month. His anti-war Democrat opponent is ahead now in the polls.
Democrats are furious about hawkish right wingers (centrists, so called) in their midst today. The Lieberman race tells the tale, and has national implications, NOT f'ing Kerry BBQs!

"This Party has decided to go left big time,"

what planet do you live on? The Democrats are anything but a left wing party. I despise them as much, perhaps even more than the Republicans. Really there is hardly a dog hairs difference between the two. The US is a one party state where the party has two names. They have nothing even as mild as the NDP, let alone a real left wing party.

If you want to se what "left" looks like have a good, long, hard look IAMC. THIS is a leftist group - one used to kickin Nazi ass, not a bunch of smarmy liberal sell-outs
http://www.farcep.org/

IAMC, weren't you the subject of a committee to ignore before you changed your name?

Anyhoo,

Please please, tell me a few left-wing policies advocated by that raving communist John Kerry. Just for laughs you understand since I don't believe you know any, it was just a sound bite you heard.

IAMC has definitely had too much to drink tonight - he's even less rational than normal - and that's hard to do.
How's the holiday Frank?

Frank; Democrats Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson, are campaigning against Joe Lieberman.
Joe will lose the primary, but win the election. The point is , though , that there is a push to the left by the DNC.
To toast Joe, and use him as a sacrifice to higher values, so called, that try to self loath themselves into a frenzy. I can't tell you how much I hope Joe still remains a Senator.
Joe's Jewish, as you know.
I guess we can say that now.

You didn't answer the question IAMC, what policies does Kerry advocate that are left wing?

GWest, some vacation, I took my work computer with me :-) But I am taking a real one soon and I won't be bringing this thing.

Ran back to Saskatoon for yours?

No, they are pretty right wing although maybe not reactionary. Moveon and other activist groups are the progressive arm of the party and while we're on that deaar Joe voted for the bankruptcy bill among other usury type laws that no progressive would ever vote for. The guy went after Clinton like crazy and then defends Bush. He would do less damage to the Dems as a sitting independent even if he were to win which is not likely. It may split the dem vote which would let the republican win, but still his constituents couldn't be worse off than they are now with him. And, the republicans couldn't hold him up as being a centerist! lol The fact that he will run as an independent shows what he is really like, 'nice guy', or not.

And, very few here want to see the US do badly as a country and as a people. What we want is more of the positive and an elimination of the worst aspects which unfortunately are at this time running the show.

How long can this artificial economy go on? Not much longer is my guess.

RRG, he's got "Joe-Motion" doncha know :-)

But then the Democratic party is full of right-wingers who joined the party when they thought it would rule for decades. And since you have a better chance of losing an election in the old Soviet Union than a Senator in the States does I can see their point.

Frank
Yep, spent most of two weeks there. Plus some time down on the farm near the home where my Dad lives now (he's going on for 88). I'm not sure you'd call it a holiday (he had a heart attack while I was there/ he’s hanging on) but S/toon is definitely an improved place now from what it was in my college days.

Place is greener this year (for this time of year) than I've ever seen it though. I met a young couple on the plane who were moving there from Vancouver. She has a job teaching math at U of S and they managed to buy a 3 bedroom house just off Broadway for 155G – which was what they offered on a 450 sq ft apartment in East Vancouver (it sold for 185G and the buyers were ecstatic apparently). GO figure. When they realized they couldn’t afford any more than that they just gave up on BC and headed for Saskatoon – Nice people – Saskatchewan’s gain I’d say.

Seems a pretty good option to me for young people who can’t find a way to make it in Vancouver’s crazy RE market.

I think re-election rates for the Senate are about 80+ % and the House closer to 95%.

Some democracy. Wasn't the term rotten borough in England? Seems appropriate to me.

I agree with you about not wanting Americans as people to get the shaft RRG. They just have such an appalling government that it's often hard not to think of country in totally negative terms.

Hey, I lived near Broadway, just off Ruth. 155g? Not too bad at all. I also know some people, friends through my daughter who moved there just this spring, same reasons. Haven't been back there myself since a wedding about 15 years ago. Can't believe its been that long, always loved the place.

Sorry to hear about your dad G!

Thanks for that Frank. Keeping my fingers crossed - he still has his wits but he'd rather be dead than spend the rest of his life on his back. Problem with those old soldier/farmers - never knew when to start taking it easy. Jesus you have to be tough to be old in this culture - these 'homes' are frightful places.

Saskatoon has a great farmer's market every Saturday through the summer and fall - they block off the street between the Library and City Hall and there's a huge bust of Gandhi on a street corner right in the middle of downtown, and a bronze statue of Laurier meeting a paper boy on the corner of the next block. All new to me.

You should take a trip back - it's changed a lot, but still wonderful. It must have the most restaurants per capita of any city in Canada now: everything from Tai to Vietnamese with several kinds of African and Burmese Ukrainian and Greek, Russian and God knows what all thrown in for good measure along with all the usual suspects.

The Continuing Polls Battle:

A few days ago we saw serious discrepencies, re. Harper, between Angus Reid's Canwest (Aspers) commissioned poll vs. a Strategic Counsel/Globe Poll. Today we have a new Decima/Sun chain poll, that seems to corroborate the Globe one...
which is to say Harper's fortunes are falling fast. Good news! Yippeeiokayay.
http://www.ottawasun.com/News/National/2006/08/03/1716611-sun.html

Thu, August 3, 2006
Tories losing battle
Party plunges into tie with Grits as pro-U.S. policy on Mideast backfires: Poll

By SUE BAILEY, CP

A NEW POLL suggests Tory support is sliding over voter concern that Canada has become too cosy with the U.S. on Mideast policy.

The latest results by Decima Research put the Tories and Liberals in a virtual tie.

The Tories had 32% support nationally, compared with 31% for the Liberals and 16% for the NDP.

The Liberals widened their Ontario lead to 42-33 over the Tories, and have pulled in front of the Conservatives in Quebec for the first time since the election. The two parties had been neck-and-neck in Ontario as recently as mid-June.

"When we look at the combination of the alignment of the government with the current U.S. administration policy on the Middle East -- and in particular with respect to the Lebanon-Israel conflict -- it's reasonable to assume it's one of the factors that's driving Conservative support down in the near term," says Decima CEO Bruce Anderson. "They clearly are encountering some pushback from voters in Ontario and Quebec in particular."

The Liberals have also taken the lead in crucial urban ridings, by a 35-29 margin, and are increasingly preferred by women and by voters aged 25-34, the poll suggests.

Mideast policy and hefty new defence spending announced by the Tories in June have apparently left Quebecers cold, Anderson says.

The province tends to be the most pacifist in Canada. It's also where Harper has invested most of his political capital.

Harper has been vilified by critics for his pro-Israel stance on the latest crisis in Lebanon. But Anderson notes the Tory slide started in June, before the fighting started.

Anderson cautions against reading too much into the latest poll of 1,000 Canadians, taken July 27-31....
************************************
On Lieberman, I fear he may in fact lose the primary, but win the election as an Independent, cause even Republicans like him and some will vote for him.
Still, the Lieberman race shows grassroots Dems to be anything but complacent. They're mad as hell!
...Strange how Lieberman was anti war in the Vietnam era when Asia was the battleground, but is a raging hawk when it comes to the middle east. Typically
news articles won't connect the dots:
He in fact is a devout Jew (he takes Fri. night and Sat. off from campaigning), presumably supports Israel "unconditionally". Why else would he be such a middle east hawk? The media tip toes away from the Israel allegiance explanation though. There's nothing anti Semitic about mentioning that angle, but the chill exists for the media none
the less.

Bobb999
Most Jews had to leave Morocco in between 51-56 because of the pogroms there. My friend family had to leave because of the threats to them. However in recent times Morocco has been a fairly balanced player in the Jewish-Arab issues. They have been to busy with their own little civil war. Also if you do a proper analysis, you will find the greatest threat to a Muslim is another Muslim. Almost everyday a mosque somewhere in the world is attacked by an opposing Muslim group.

Verso
So why is it that the Hezbollah has to control the media with armed guards and threats to individual reporters? People there do not speak out against the Hezbollah because they will come and kill them and have just reminded people that they will deal with anyone that opposes them after this conflict.

Colin
Notice you still haven't come to grips with Israel's record re Lebanon and Sharon's 'alliance' with the Christian Phalange - The situation there isn't sui generis either. Buldozers almost never solve problems and Olmert's won't either. They are just sowing more seeds for future conflict.

Nothing better than hearing that Harper is sliding in the polls, but beware of those "informal powers" of rule (mentioned by ArConn, I think, on another thread )...those hidden powers that purposely intrude, sway and manipulate.

I remember on these threads when even the thought of Harper, becoming PM was devastating enough...now he sits in the PM chair. Then the actual ability of his minority government "to do much" was discounted...and here he is now already changing, indeed reversing the face of Canada's foreign policy...and the face of Canada itself.

"Step by step"...isn't that what the neo-cons always say ?

(And didn't Gore really win the last US election, yet somehow, Stevie's best friend still sits on the Imperial throne).

Then remember during the last election, and that "fortuitous" leak that turned the tides for Mr. Harper....word of a criminal investigation into the possibility of a leak from the Liberal government prior to a November announcement on taxation of income trusts....all the while the RCMP saying they had "no evidence of wrongdoing or illegal activity on the part of anyone associated to this investigation, including Ralph Goodale."

And so it goes...

So I think there is much reason for caution and for paying close attention to those unseen but powerful informal powers that manipulate advantageous political serendipity better than the gods themselves.

So true, Lynn. We're a long way from the endgame and it's far too soon for cheering.

My ears are hearing ya, woman, and my head is nodding of its own accord. I know words of wisdom when I hear them. :-)

I think the press is ignoring one basic issue here. That is, that hardcore extremist fundamentalist evangelical christians like the Prime Minister, and his cabinet ministers (Stockwell Day) believe in the rapture.

Evangelicals support Israel because of biblical prophecy, including passages that tie the survival of Israel to the Second Coming of Jesus.

The establishment--and continuation--of the State of Israel is essential to set the stage for the imminent return of Jesus. At the time of the Second Coming, these Christians believe, Jesus will descend from heaven, subdue all of Israel's enemies and take believers to heaven in what is known as the Rapture--literally, they will ascend to the clouds to be in heaven. This series of events ushers in the end-times. According to conservative Christians' reading of the Book of Revelation, this won't happen unless Israel exists in the Holy Land.

This also explains US support for the racist nation of Israel. A quarter of US congressmen are evangelicals. Bush buddy Ralph Reed leads the Christian "Stand for Israel" campaign.

Kinda scary that Canada's stance is to support the slaughter of children and the butchering of civilians, all because of some distorted, demented interpretation of the Bible people like Stephen Harper and Stockwell Day have. Sick really.

I thought it was interesting that after reading the Harvard study called the "ISRAEL LOBBY", the top of the list as the most powerful The Assoc. of Retired Persons, in Canada the branch is CARP and the original tip accusing Ralph Goodales office came from a guy from CARP - he later said he made a mistake but it was got the ball rolling to the final nail for the Libs. There is a Civil Liberties group pushing for a full investigation into this whole fishy matter with the RCMP - and anybody concerned about the future of Canada's democracy should support it.
The second most powerful in the US is the NRA.
Critics of the report say the charges are baseless.
We can still read without being called names or be labelled something can't we?

Colin, this doesn't answer the questions I raised concerning your first post... if you don't want to address those questions, fine, I'm finished asking them over and over.

After listening to many Arab leaders in interviews on such shows as Charlie Rose, etc many of them sound a lot saner and more reasonable than most of the American and Israeli leaders. Israelis and the Bush Admin just label a group Terrorists then make a law that you cannot negotiate with
with terrorists or their supporters which means they will not talk to the heads of most of the parties involved with the conflict! What could be more stupid that that? and then have the nerve to say you want peace? give me a break...

As far as I'm concerned the sooner thay rapture the hell out of here the better for the state of the world. Sadly, Tom Joad, I don't think you can ignore the fact that these idiots believe in such utter garbage.

Harper gave speeches to the Christian Coalition started by Jerry Falwell where he and Pat Robertson were the founders of the Christian Zionist movement. Google 'CHRISTIAN ZIONIST' for more info.

You are obviously paying attention, asking the right questions and noting the most appropriate details, rebel. And you are wisened to Colin. :-) An enlightening moment in itself. :-)

And good google suggestion. I will do it right now.

Peace.

The people who want a Rupture, I mean Rapture, have to be the sickest group to ever come down the old religious sewage pipe. Dig. Muslim fanatics only want to establish their authoritarian regime on other Muslims, and they sure as Hell don't want to destroy the world. Zionist fanatics want a Greater Israel, and the rest of the world be damned, Nazis and Stalinists only want to murder some of the people, but not all of them. But the Rupturite lunatics want everyone, and every living thing, for that matter, to be destroyed, so Jesus can beam them up. This is evil concentrated to the max. They should be instituitionalized as criminal psychopaths.

Rapture, no doubt is a stupid attempt to try and say Christian values can be compared to suicide bombers.
I don't think so.
There is nothing about ' Rapture " that has children at the age of 5 years old, being brainwashed into believing killing Jews and Americans, by strapping a bomb onto yourself and purposely killing yourself and other innocent children of Jewish decent, as being our equivalent of taking up a trade.
There are some pretty sick puppies posting on this site.

Enlighten us, IAMC, what is the Rapture all about then?

Rapture info:

hallindseyoracle.com

hiltonsutton.org

God has predetermined the time in which the church will be raptured. There is nothing any man or political leader can do to quicken his return. Sorry this doesn't wash Tom Joad. Christians don't believe that there is anything that we as mere man can do to fast forward the second coming. You are mis informed, warping the facts, Be careful...

mommyinlove

You don't seriously believe this stuff, surely.

It sure looks like Tom Joad believes that Harper, Bush, et al believe in it...without providing any documented proof. On the other hand, Islam is the religion of peace.

Dunno Stan, I can't put my finger on the proof at this precise moment but I think Tom Joad's claim about fundamentalist evangelicals in the US Government is about right. I think I read a piece in Ha-aretz two or three years ago which made precisely the same argument and which, to boot, expressed some real concern about how close these groups have come to be allied with certain Jewish orthodox groups both in the US and in Israel.

Obviously the Jews want the alliances for strategic reasons that have nothing to do with the Rapture. Still, the writer was very concerned about the implication of any formal alliances with a group that believed, ultimately, that the Jews could never enter the kingdom of heaven without accepting JC as their lord and savior. I certainly don’t believe all of this is coincidental.

GO figure.

I agree that many of these people are fundamentalist evangelicals (though, in my opinion they aren't always following the teachings of Christ), I just don't believe that they are trying to set the stage for the second coming. Support for Israel is certainly a lot more complicated then just preparing for the Rapture.

Rapture, we have won, it's not an issue.
Nobody is going to killed by ' RAPTURE "
That cannot be said of the Madras in Pakistan, India, Syria, Iran that go constantly in favour of suicide, juvenile, female, anybody than strong. victims of a perverted ideology, should be applauded by the posters on this thread.

Stan
you didn't happen to watch the Daily Show tonight did you?

If you can still catch it - I think it rebroadcasts at midnight on CTV - it's worth a laugh - apropos of what we've been saying above.

What the hell are you talking about IAMC?

Are you into the sauce again?

Sorry, no cable or antenna so I guess I missed out...maybe CTV will have a clip on their website.

IAMC, the rapture folks and Christian Zionists aren't hurting anybody? Have you ever heard of 1948? Palestinians were pushed out of their homes and were sent as refugees so a homeland could be specifically set up for one ethnic/religious group.

Anyhow, this isn't really about Islam vs the west, Muslims vs Jews, Israel vs Hezbollah, etc. The real issue is....what the real issue always is. It is a war between the rich and the poor.

You think that rich Palestinians lost their homes? Oridnary, working people were moved out, so a new, US puppet dollar machine country could be set up. This Jewish homeland thing is just a ruse. Tootsies in Rwanda are persecuted to you know?

Hogwash mommyinlove, and you other neocon "rapture" fanatics. You extremist Christians are no less fractious and quibbling, and inclined to war with each other over scriptural minutia and interpretation than are the extremist Islamists. You are as equally at war with each other as are they, and our own history bears yet those many scars, over unprovable and delusional shitt.

And you are all-, Islamist, Zionist and Christian extremist nutters, about as equally dangerous to the rest of us all, here and in the Middle East. The extreme and brutal rampage of the US Empire across the world, a fanatically religious state in itself, has let you all out of Pandora's Box to plague the rest of us, and move us towards your End Days nonsence.

Getting you religious wingy-dings all back into the box and locking it, while at the same time separating out and taking all that is progressive and truly socially and economically transforming and liberating, and facilitating and encouraging that, is going to be the trick of our time for all serious secular social, political and economic radicals.

And it just could get whole bunches uglier here, before a line of advance starts to open up for us. At least, the way it is looking, thanks to you fuks.

Bang friggin' on, brother. Where the hammer meets the nail.

The rest is all so much ideological and propaganda smoke and mirrors.

(And here, all along, I thought your moniker said Tom Toad. 8-D LOL.)

When the rich decide on war..its the poor who die

Lynn said:

I see Coyote grabbed hold of this one too. Too true.
I view the US political system NOT as "the world's greatest democracy". I'd say it's in the running for winning "the world's greatest disgrace to democracy" award! Yes, elections stolen - with the conivance of the Supreme Court even,the corruption of the system by lobbyists offering kickbacks for legislative favours, disinformation campaigns to vilify, attack ads
(the "swift boating" of Kerry), etc., ad nauseum.

Unfortunately, the Chretien Libs subscribed to ingrained corruption, considering it just "doing business" with that adscam racket they set up.

Here's a cynical "hope": that the "natural governing party" (Libs) may still have enough "powerful informal powers" behind them from all those decades of control, to out-do any such
"helpers" the new kids on the block Cons may have at their disposal...especially if Harper becomes increasingly viewed as out of step with Canadians, the wrong horse to back.

...oh, about that scandal mid-election Lynn mentioned that may have been the turning point (against the Libs).

I recall at the time being among those actually calling for investigation of an apparently blatant case of major insider trading, suggesting leaks from gov't to rich market players, such as CIBC...later I realized how wrong the RCMP was to overstate their preliminary investigation
as a "criminal investigation" in a letter to the NDP. Issuing such a letter was a break with normal RCMP policy, making it look very suspicious. Apparently, no charges are likely to be forthcoming after all the headlines.

No doubt the RCMP expected the NDP would
release the letter and cause damage to Martin's election chances. But hey, "they always get their man"! Apparently they got Martin.

I think the RCMP intentionally interfered
with an election campaign, which, in a democracy, is unacceptable.

I hope the Cdn Civil Liberties Assoc's official complaint lodged against the RCMP over this, results in censure and embarrassment for our Mounties, such that they don't try a similar stunt again.

Amen on that score Bobb many nines. On this particular point, relative to the RCMP and their newly (relatively) revealed 'political' agenda I think I'd be willing to go along with my sometime adversary Murdock and support an independent provincial police force.

The political involvement of the police didn't, of course, begin with the Goodale question - it has been going on, in spades, for at least a dozen years and probably longer in respect of matters involving native issues and, closer to home, here in Vancouver, during the Chretien years and the APEC debacle. In fact, it dates to the seventies if my memory serves - especially in Quebec. I suspect that others here have stories to tell about CSIS as well, btw.

Anyway, I think in the absence of evidence to the contrary (that the RCMP has clean hands) that each province should establish, as soon as possible, its own independent and professional police service. The opportunities for manipulation, given the current government's appetite for information management and selective memory is just to great to continue to leave investigations in the hands of a force that is now more political than professional. If for no other reason than keeping training and financing funds in a more local economy and removing some of Ottawa’s ability to manipulate these issues it would be a good idea. The structure of governance would of course be problematic since one has no reason to expect that Victoria would not as easily succumb to the temptation to use a provincial force to further its own ends.

Regarding the shelling of the UN observation post last week: "This has not been deliberate targeting, but has rather been due to tactical necessity," wrote Major Paeta Hess-von Kruedener.

National Post
Published: Thursday, July 27, 2006
BEIRUT - In the days leading up to his death, Major Paeta Hess-von Kruedener was a soldier under siege, trapped in his UN compound as the war closed in around him.

But even as the bombing intensified, the Canadian peacekeeper managed to send a letter from the front lines.

"What I can tell you is this; we have on a daily basis had numerous occasions where our position has come under direct or indirect fire from both artillery and aerial bombing," he wrote in an e-mail just nine days before he was killed with three other UN peacekeepers by an Israeli bomb.

"The closest artillery has landed within two metres of our position and the closest 1,000-lb aerial bomb has landed 100 metres from our patrol base."

He attributed the attacks to the grim reality of war, refusing to blame the Israelis for hitting the compound and emphasizing "the nature of my job here is to be impartial and to report violations from both sides without bias."

"This has not been deliberate targeting, but has rather been due to tactical necessity," he wrote.

The statement suggested that Hezbollah fighters were operating close to the UN base.

His death struck a chord with other Canadian troops yesterday as they evacuated stranded foreigners from the southern Lebanese city of Tyre.

"It's brought everything home for a lot of us," said one soldier who had served with Maj. Hess-von Kruedener on a tour of duty.

"He was a real veteran, willing to go anywhere and do anything," added the soldier, who could not give his name for security reasons.

Maj. Hess-von Kruedener was the only Canadian serving as a UN military observer in Lebanon.

It was the sixth tour of overseas duty for the infantryman, a 20-year army veteran who had served in Cyprus, Bosnia and Congo.

For the past nine months, he had been stationed on a patrol base about 10 kilometres from the Israeli border.

His eight-man team was responsible for reporting any violations of a United Nations ceasefire, but as unarmed observers they had no ability to enforce it.

He signed his letters "Maj. H.v.K" but was known as "Wolf" to most of his friends.

Maj. Hess-von Kruedener wrote about what he had seen before the outbreak of all-out war -- a failed attempt by Hezbollah to kidnap Israeli soldiers last November, the Israeli shooting of a shepherd boy a few months later.

Border skirmishes grew increasingly intense as Hezbollah continued to lob rockets into northern Israel.

He described the current fighting as "by far the most spectacular and intensive" he had ever seen. It was so intense it forced his UN team to retreat to their camp.

"We are not safe to venture out to conduct our normal patrol activities. We have now switched to Operational Post Duties and are observing any and all violations as they occur," he recounted.

According to a preliminary UN report, the peacekeepers warned the Israeli army as many as 10 times to stop bombing near their camp.

Yesterday, Maj. Hess-von Kruedener's body was airlifted out of southern Lebanon. The UN border post where he had served was destroyed.

stan
Not quite sure what you're suggesting. The post was in Lebanon, right?

We have Kruedener's statement about 'tactical' necessity from a statement written 9 days prior to his death. OK so far. We also know that the UN says they warned Israel 10 times about the proximity of their targeting (this, presumably in the hours prior to the destruction of the post) and we have the fact that the IDF has apologized for its 'mistake'.

The rest, with respect is conjecture. Including, most crucially, this 'opinion' from the unnamed writer of the piece:

I don't think we can draw any definitive conclusions from the article other than the fact that the writer of the piece is trying to shift the responsibility for the post's destruction to Hezbollah. And, even if the opinion expressed in the above quotation reflects the facts on the ground, so what? Would you expect Hezbollah to be operating somewhere other than the Lebanon after all?

I see from today’s reports that the IDF is now bringing down fire on Beirut proper and also north of the city. The initial (subsequently discredited) attempts to spin the attack on Qana in the hours immediately after that tragedy further underscores the point I’m trying to sustain.

Is that fair? I just don't think we can judge on the basis of this story.

G West:
You're likely right about the RCMP interfering in politics on previous occasions. They've definitely gone way outside their mandate in various ways before. Yes, Quebec in the '70s - The RCMP was caught breaking the law several times at least, in the course of investigating and gathering intel on separatists, once committing arson by burning down a barn.

They've done lots of lobbying for gun control, stiffer jail sentences etc... Lobbying's one thing, but attempting to influence elections in mid campaign, is
something else again!

As for provincial police forces replacing
the RCMP. Perhaps. Ontario has the OPP and Quebec has its prov. force. Newfoundland has theirs. OPP has a good rep I think (I was an Ontarian once).

City forces worry me too. Toronto has seen a lot of officer corruption come to light the last few years.
The most chilling for me is the Saskatoon force, which apparently had the habit of stranding drunk natives far out of town in -40 degree winter weather with insufficient clothing. At least several died. Some officers were convicted of minor charges, but not manslaughter or murder. A police force with racist serial killers among them! In Canada?

re. Stan's take on the UN post bombing:
Destroying a UN post with a precision guided missile was a tactical necessity?
...Hey, it's not as if Hezbollah was using the UN post roof as a platform for launching rockets. There was no reason for Israel to think Hezbollah had taken over the post - especially with the UN
observers there making frantic phone calls to the Israeli gov't pleading for them to quit threatening UN lives.

Even if the story's true about Hezbollah fighters being somewhere nearby, that doesn't excuse endangering innocent parties such as the unarmed UN soldiers.
...But then we know Israel hates the UN 'cause, unlike the US, the UN calls Israel on the carpet for its aggression and human rights violations.
So why would Israel care what happens to UN guys?

Bob-be-nign:
Toronto police certainly have a problematic rep, as does, I think, Edmonton's force and certainly, Saskatoon's. Typical I think of the democratic and professional deficit at the municipal level.

When I lived in Ontario I found the OPP was pretty decent as well and I never had any complaints about the QPP when I lived in Montreal. However, on that score, if I had lived in Oka I probably wouldn't feel that way.

I'm not generally a provincial rights sort of fellow but, if one could have truly professional and independent oversight I'd be more than happy to see provincial police forces and shrink the RCMP considerably: For their own good as well as ours and, more generally, in the interests of justice as well.

Israel did not want the UN watching and knowing what they were doing. I think the evidence is pretty much clear about that. So they "lit it up" to send a message to the UN.

"Shut 'em all down!", or we may have more "mistakes" like this here.

And I understand the wingnut desire to rationalize these aggressor Zionist/US war crimes away. It's part of what defines these folks amongst us.

In any casem, the source for the story is the National Post, which brought us a recent example of the outright lying reportage to which they are prone. (The precise issue immediately eludes me.) In any case, it reads like it came right out of the fertile imagination of these folks and their backroom Neoconazi "spin" machine.

They should really call themselves the US Bootlick Post in any case.

GWest and Bob999,

Myself, I'm less certain about the value of "provincial police" as a solution to the problem of RCMP corruption and "political interference". For such as myself who have some familiarity and "historical problem" with the RCMP as a "political police", they have always been so and that has not changed even with the creation of our official KGB, CSIS, part of which purpose was reputedly to correct that past practice.

But additionally, corruption is, in my view, part and parcel of the current "neoconazi period" anyway, with the police like our US beholden and integrated military leadership pretty naturally gravitating towards the natural upholders of capitalism, and their neoconazi predisposition to bigger and grander "law and order" police and military budgets.

So, again in my view, within the framework of the current social order and its natural power structure predispositions, I think the actual change to a provincial police system is more likely to be outright harmful than useful: further creating and fortifying the "competing power" tendencies of our "provincial system" with the national government , further weakening the latter.

We already have a problem with this power of the provinces base, competing for influence, control and jurisdiction over national systems of governance, authority and social policy, and wanting to create a "provinces rights" environment that echoes the reactionary US "states rights" model. Further evidence of their deep integration ambitions. I would rather see the provinces abolished altogether actually, eliminating the financial and other resource wastefulness and national bureaucratic fractiousness that this reduntant level of governance encourages: Going over instead to a national system of smaller, more local, and cooperative based systems of counties or such like, such as is more common in Europe. (Which idea we have discussed here before actually, and as I recall, Frank and I were in agreement, interestingly enough.)

There are no short cuts around dealing with this problem of "corruption", I think, without dealing with the economic and social ideas, morality and material base or underpinnings out of which it rises, being capitalism itself.

Good points Coyote; I confess I have plenty of problems with provincial parochialism too and I'm not congenitally disinclined to support your, and Frank's, concept as well.

I guess my problem with the status quo and the current character of political 'policing' at the federal level makes me wonder if a scrupulously independent handful of provincial or regional forces might not still be better than continuing on with what we have now.

Today, apparently, another RCMP officer who had made various public statements about something or other (slipped my mind at the moment) has been muzzled by his superiors and forbidden from further comment on the issue in question.

Something clearly needs to be done.

As to the general dilemma and its possible solutions, as I've said several times before, I'll happily follow along behind your lead.

It's funny, if Hezbollah hit a U.N. building, or if North Korea or China did, it would be bombs away and the shareholders with stakes in US munitions companies would be eating steak tonight.

G West:

Sonia Verma was the writer of the article. (I don't know why it didn't appear with the article.)

In any case, I think that Kruedener's messages imply that the IDF was shelling near the post because Hezbollah was near the post. NEAR...as in perhaps right beside. What difference does it make if the post is located in Lebanon. That's where the fighting is.

Here's a link I posted earlier showing the sometimes incestuous relationship the UN has with Hezbollah:

http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2006/07/international-peacekeepers.html

Note the picture at the bottom. If you think it's a fake then prove it. Otherwise, I think that the UN has to explain how it's being neutral when it's helping the Hezbollah.

I don't know what actually happened to that day, other than the result, and neither do you. All we can do is speculate. So why is it that you and others here are so quick to blame Israel?

Stan
I'm not!

You need to read what I've written on the subject again, in my view. Have you read Ha'aretz on the Israeli attempts to spin the Qana bombing? They more or less acknowledge that the initial reaction was just marketing and that there is no evidence whatsoever to indicate that the Qana situation was anything other than an Israeli mistake.

Israel is manipulating this to beat the band. They have thousands of volunteers posting in various languages in support of Israel and demonizing Hezbollah at every opportunity. They manage information at the front very purposefully too - not to say that Hezbollah isn't doing the same thing to the best of its ability too. I also subscribe to a half-dozen Jewish journals and list servers and I've been innundated with propaganda ever since the war started. Take from that what you will.

I'll look at the material you posted re the UN.

GWest,

And I do understand the desire and motivation, for sure.

Rabbinic Council Says
Dead Lebanon Kids
Not Innocent
By Rev. Ted Pike
8-4-6

Yesha Rabbinical Council is the recognized authority on Jewish religious questions in Gaza and the West Bank. This week it decreed that at least 56 Lebanese citizens of Kfar Qanna, including at least 34 children, targeted by an Israeli air strike, were not "innocent."

"The Yesha Rabbinical Counsel announced in response to an IDF attack in Kfar Qanna that 'according to Jewish law, during a time of battle and war, there is no such thing as 'innocence' among the enemy.'" 1

The council's edict reflects existing Israeli military/religious law. The chaplain for the IDF forces says, "In war, when our forces storm the enemies, they are allowed and even enjoined by the Halakah to kill even good civilians, that is, civilians that are ostensibly good." 2

Such official standards come from binding Jewish law, or Halakah, contained in the Babylonian Talmud. The Talmud is the highest religious and ethical authority for the state of Israel and religious Jews. The Talmudic 'proof text' for Yesha's decision came from treatise Abodah-Zarah 26b, where Rabbi Simeon Ben Yohai says: "The best among the gentiles deserves to be killed. The best of snakes ought to have its head crushed."

Is the author of such bloodthirsty racism denounced in our time? Hardly. Rabbi Ben Yohai is one of the earliest and therefore most respected of Talmudic rabbis. He is so beloved by Ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel that every year at his birth place, in Meron, tens of thousands gather for days in the festival of Lag Ba Omar to sing and dance in honor of his memory. The prestigious Encyclopedia Judaica, in its article on him, describes Ben Yohai as one of the giants of Judaism for all time.

Interestingly enough, as quick as the last story came out the Yesha Council shut down their site http://www.moetzetyesha.co.il/

From Pro-Zionist Alan Dershowitz in the LA Times:

Interesting stuff, Tom Joad. Keep it coming.

Hmmmm. I guess that is what you were referring to. That link doesn't work.

Unltra orthodox Jewish leaders saying there are no innocents is no different then what the terrorists are saying:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: October 28, 2005
1:00 a.m. Eastern

By Aaron Klein
© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com

JERUSALEM – While Israelis were burying casualties from this week's suicide bombing and over a dozen injured were still lying in hospitals – some in critical condition – a senior leader of a terror group reportedly involved in the attack told WND the blast just north of Tel Aviv was "legitimate" because all Israelis are "military targets, they are not civilians."

"As long as Israelis do not react against their government and its policy, we will never consider them as innocent civilians and they will always be a legitimate goal for our attacks," said Abu Carmel, a West Bank leader of the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, the military wing of PA President Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah Party.

Abu Carmel was speaking to WND after a suicide bomber exploded in an open-air market in the coastal city of Hadera Wednesday, killing five people and wounding more than two dozen others. The attack was carried out in front of a falafel stand at the entrance to the market. Hadera has been a frequent target of bombings during the past five years.

The Islamic Jihad terror group immediately claimed responsibility for the blast, saying the bombing was retaliation for the death of one of its senior leader in an Israel Defense Forces raid in the West Bank earlier this week. Sources close to the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades told WND the group was involved in the attack as well.

Abu Carmel confirmed his group coordinates attacks with Islamic Jihad:

"I don't want to speak about [Wednesday's] attack, but we coordinate and collaborate very often. It is true that we have excellent relations with our brothers in the Islamic Jihad. We felicitate our brothers in their heroic attacks, and we promise not to leave them alone in the campaign that Israel is leading against them."

Abu Carmel emphasized his group considers Jews living anywhere in Israel legitimate military targets.

"Only the Palestinians, who get killed every day, are innocent civilians," Abu Carmel said.

Meanwhile, thousands of mourners turned out yesterday to pay their last respects at the respective funerals of the five Israelis killed.

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon announced a "broad and nonstop offensive" against terrorism, pledging the Israeli Defense Forces response - which is primarily aimed at Islamic Jihad - would continue until terror attacks end.

Israel yesterday fired a rocket at two senior Islamic Jihad terrorists in northern Gaza, also reportedly killing four other Palestinians. Jihad pledged "harsh retaliation."

Stan
Not quite sure what your posted material signifies. My understanding is that the UN personnel in the area are "observers" not peacemakers. In fact, the dispatches from von Kreudener would seem to confirm this.

As for the picture of Annan with Nazralla - big deal. The leader of Hezbollah in Lebanon is the leader of a democratically elected party in the Lebanese Government.

All kinds of people shake hands with George Bush and intelligent folks are seriously debating whether or not there is a case to indict him for war crimes. The same thing is true of Henry Kissinger.

You're going to have to come up with something a little more significant to convince me of your case.

As to whether or not the mandate of the UN observers – note they are supposed to:
• Confirm the withdrawal of Israeli forces from southern Lebanon;
• Restore international peace and security (this one is really a joke I do admit);
• Assist the Government of Lebanon in ensuring the return of its effective authority in the area. I'd say it's the interference of others - Syria and Israel primarily - who've been thwarting this one much of the time.

Flying a UN flag nearby the Hezbollah flag at a border post – when Hezbollah is a legitimate member of the cabinet government in Lebanon – hardly makes your case.

I’m not saying you can’t make the case, just that, like that story from the National Post and much of the stuff I’m getting daily from the Forward, David Horowitz and Aish.com, you haven’t.

I rely almost completely on Ha’aretz for Israeli news.

Stan,
That post is dated October 28 2005. What does it have to do with the current war? This insanity has been going on, man and boy, mother and daughter, since the 1930s. For every suicide bomber atomized in Israel I can produce a Neanderthal like Ariel Sharon driving a bulldozer over a Palestinian village. SO What!

I'd say the wingnuts on both extremes - ultra orthodox Jews on the one hand and suicide bombers on the other are pretty much the equivalent of the Provos and The Ulster Unionists in Ireland.

Get rid of the whackjobs on both sides, spike their bloody guns and realize all these poor folks have a right to live together in some kind of reasonable arrangement and you'll have a solution to the Middle East - just as eventually the thugs ran out of justification for terror in Ireland.

It ain't perfect but it's better than the insanity the American have spawed in the ME now, don't you think?

I should edit more carefully, sorry.

Last line should read:
"...insanity the Americans have spawned..."

G West:

I'm not sure what you mean by "making my case"? My point was and is that the shelling of the UN post, and by extension, the shelling of "civilian" targets in Lebanon, Israel is going after the Hezbollah no matter where they try to hide. If this is to be considered a war crime, then you must also accept that hiding behind civilians or in "neutral territory" like the UN post is also a war crime. Critics of the Israelis tend to ignore this.

Hess-von Kruedener wrote: "This has not been deliberate targeting, but has rather been due to tactical necessity." Those are his words and not the National Post's. I understand this to mean that the Israelis were shelling Hezbollah, who were hiding near the UN post. What else could he be implying?

The Hezbollah would like to have it both ways: act like a military force when attacking Israeli positions, then pretend that they are civilians when fire is returned.

How many of the civilian casualties in Lebanon are actually Hezbollah fighters? Who's to say that they're not intentionally hiding amongst the civilians in order to provoke a higher "innocent civilian" casualty rate and thus gain more sympathy for their cause? This tactic is not unheard of: In Yugoslavia, Bosnians shelled their own people and then blamed the Serbs. And we all KNOW who the bad guys were there, right?

G West:

Nothing has changed.

Get rid of the whackjobs on both sides, spike their bloody guns and realize all these poor folks have a right to live together in some kind of reasonable arrangement and you'll have a solution to the Middle East - just as eventually the thugs ran out of justification for terror in Ireland.

I agree.

If you mean Iraq and Afghanistan, I agree. Unfortunately, I think that Israel's problems are not as simple as just blaming the US.

But, Stan:

My point simply is that Hezbollah is a Lebanese entity, whether we like it or not, created, at least partly, by the actions of Ariel Sharon and the IDF some two decades ago and facilitated by how quickly Ronny Reagan pulled the Marines out of Beirut after the barracks bombing.

Remember?

My examples merely point out that there is a propaganda exercise of enormous proportions going on on both sides of this appalling conflict. Whatever motivates the current Israeli assault the fact is that the blood of the innocents being slaughtered today will soak into Lebanese soil and stimulate the growth of subsequent bombers and assassins another generation from now. Just like the tit for tat violence of the IRA and the Unionists did in the generations following Britain's original mistakes in Ireland.

Israel can't, under any rubric, wipe their enemies off the map, any more than Hezbollah and Hamas (which is arguably at least partly a product of the US’s absurd ‘democracy’ project) can push Israel into the sea. Both sides have squandered their moral authority under an umbrella cloud of vile and misplaced American self-interest and it has to stop. More and more I come to agree with Coyote that the only hope for the world is a total economic collapse in the US and I fear the consequences of that too.

There are no white hats in this movie. If the yanks hadn't been so bloody minded as to start their current aggressive war with Iraq (which is now a civil war breeding even more hate for the west and the Jews) there might have been an opportunity to make the 'road map' work. As it is, I don't see anything but more blood and hate on the horizon, DO you? Arguing about who’s worse in this dance is about as worthwhile as shifting the lounges on the Titanic.

Do you seriously think that Bush and his handlers have any credibility any more? If the UN is compromised then the US is compromised cubed. Can you honestly say the public is getting even 10% of the truth in the media – there’s a Pew study just out that I pointed somewhere on Tyee which says that less than 30% of the population has any trust in the media any more – and a lot more besides – check it out if you’re interested.

Sorry you didn’t see the Daily Show. I think they archive clips on their website and it’s usually worth a laugh – if nor a sober second thought.

Here's the link to the Pew study, btw:
http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?PageID=1069

Alan Dershowitz, quoted from an inerview in the Aug.14 edition of 'The Western Standard'
"It has now become a litmus test to join the hard left that one becomes a knee-jerk opponent of Israel and everything it tries to do. This kind of bias cannot be affected by rational changes or rational thought. When Israel gives up land for peace these academics attack it.When Israel absorbs attacks without responding, as it did following it's withdrawal from Gaza, these hard leftists increase their attack. The British Teachers' campaign to boycott Israel only got worse when Israel made significant sacrafices for peace. "
Don't you feel ashamed of yourselves ?

Yeh, IAMC, I'm ashamed that anyone such as yourself would use Alan Dershowitz as anything but an example of an idiot. He's the same fella who thinks torture is just dandy too. And he also wrote the above, which, thanks to Tom Joad, I don't have to did back into my archives to find because he's posted it just above.

Some exemplar!

From Pro-Zionist Alan Dershowitz in the LA Times:
Quote:
“Hezbollah and Hamas militants. . .are difficult to distinguish from those ‘civilians’ who recruit, finance, harbor and facilitate their terrorism. Nor can women and children always be counted as civilians, as some organizations do. Terrorists increasingly use women and teenagers to play important roles in their attacks.”

I guess he doesn't think there's anything wrong with blowing up women and children either. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

Drinking in the afternoon now, are you?

Thre is a joke from a few years back in which the Secretary-General prposes that, in the interests of global peace and harmony, the worlds soccer players should come together one United Nations global soccer team.
"Great idea" says his deputy. "er, but who would we play?"
"Israel, of course."

You're not just drinking today, you're falling down drunk.

Not only are you lauding someone who says it's okay to blow up women and children as long as they're not Israeli children but you're laughing about it.

THe only thing that's funny is how pathetic you actually are.

You should head back to Alberta where you'll feel more at home.

He also said "The world has reacted essentially the same to Israeli casualties and to Lebanese casualties without understanding the enormous difference. Every casualty inflicted by Hizbollah on an Israeli civilian is deliberate, because targets Israeli civilians.
Israels military response has been more cautious, and has killed fewer innocent civilians, than the response of any other nation to comparable threats in modern history."
The Western Standard is a great read. I recommend this publication. It was the first publication in North America to publish the famous Danish cartoons.
This of course resulted in a complaint to the Alberta Human Rights Council, and a hearing is forthcoming.
You can donate to Western Standards legal fund by visiting their website.

G West:

I don't disagree with what you posted 1 hour ago. But even though there are no "white hats" in this situation, many commentators here seem to be siding against Israel. Your recent posts seem to be more neutral, but I felt that your earlier posts had an anti-Israeli bias re Arial Sharon's actions,etc.

Just like in Yugoslavia, somebody always did something in the past that deserves retaliation. In my opinion, there will only be peace if Israel's existance is accepted. Doesn't matter who's land it is or who's fault it is for Israel being there...they ARE there, and they are not going away. So, in a nutshell, the Arabs must make the first move. Until that happens, or until someone goes nuclear, the conflict will continue.

Anyway, too nice a day to spend at the computer...time to enjoy the sunshine.

Stan
I don’t think you know what you're talking about but on Sharon - I don't think so. I think you'll find, if you delve a little deeper, that the Israeli commission of enquiry into Sharon's responsibility for allowing the Sabra and Shatila massacre was quite unequivocal. I had quite a debate with Norman Spector over this same subject when he tried to suggest that Robert Fisk has misspoken over these details some time ago. I will see if I can dig out the evidence from my email file if I can find the time later this weekend. This is not to mention anything else that the ‘bulldozer’ has done with power when he had it. The real tragedy in all of this began when a Jew assassinated the Prime Minister Rabin who might, with luck, have brought about a rapproachment with Palestine and gotten his countrymen to actually implement it.

Ironically, if you had said to me in 1967, while I was a student listening to the sounds of that war between the Arabs and the Israelis, that there would ever come a time when my congenital sympathy for the Jews would not override virtually all other considerations in matters where they were involved I would have called you a liar. But Israel - and I don't think this is an indictment of the Jews - has spent its moral capital too profligately and I can only say what I wrote above - that all sides have lost my sympathy and won't get it back until they all (and especially the current American administration) get back their basic humanity.

Cheers.

On your 'first-move' suggestion, I don't think that's a starter either. This requires something else - like the Americans to take a seriously significant time out and actually do something positive. Condi Rice might be capable of it but Bush and the other neoconmen in Washington.. uh,uh.

Sorry.

Enjoy the sun.

Please, edit to remove the "but" in line one above and drop the “I don’t think so.” to get what I was trying to say; my apologies.

Stan: Here's the essential part of the exchange I had with Spector - it's pretty muc self-explanatory:

Dear Norman Spector:
The report of the Kahane Commission says, as you no doubt know, a good deal more than that. The distinction made in the report between 'direct' and 'indirect' responsibility is not, it seems to me, anywhere nearly as exculpatory of Ariel Sharon's involvement as you would have your readers (or listeners in the case of the CBC transcript) believe.

The report quite clearly places the 'direct responsibility' for the massacre upon the phalangist forces who actually did the killing. It says, "Our conclusion is therefore that the direct responsibility for the perpetration of the acts of slaughter rests on the Phalangist forces." The Report then goes into considerable detail about the nature of what it calls 'indirect responsibility'.

For the authors of the Kahane report then, there is no way that Ariel Sharon's action (or inaction) could be described as anything other than 'indirectly' responsible for the massacre. Let's look for just a moment about what the report actually says about the nature of 'indirect responsibility'. First of all, the report clearly rejects any suggestion that because no IDF troops took part in the killings and since it could be argued (with difficulty I would think) that the events took place in an area over which Israel had no jurisdiction that there could be no possibility of Israel being held indirectly responsible for the events under investigation. In fact, the report goes on at length to describe why Israel - or any other nation in similar circumstances - ought to be held 'indirectly' culpable under conditions such as those that obtained at the time of the massacre.

Therefore, the only kind of responsibility which could be assigned to any citizen of Israel with respect to the substance of the report is indirect - by definition. If this is the case, it hardly follows that such an attribution is exculpatory with respect to Mr. Sharon's involvement. In fact, the words used by Mr. Fisk refer to the Minister's 'personal responsibility' and it is these same precise words which form the subtitle of the section of the report that deals with Mr. Sharon's involvement. It is these words to which you have objected so strongly. I will not go much further since you can read the words of that section yourself. Suffice it to say that the Kahane Report contains the following statement:

It is our view that responsibility is to be imputed to the Minister of Defense for having disregarded the danger of acts of vengeance and bloodshed by the Phalangists against the population of the refugee camps, and having failed to take this danger into account when he decided to have the Phalangists enter the camps. In addition, responsibility is to be imputed to the Minister of Defense for not ordering appropriate measures for preventing or reducing the danger of massacre as a condition for the Phalangists' entry into the camps. These blunders constitute the non-fulfillment of a duty with which the Defense Minister was charged. [quoted from the English translation of the Kahane Report]

I think your argument that the distinction between indirect and direct responsibility somehow absolves or ameliorates Ariel Sharon's 'personal' responsibility (as ascribed to him by the Kahane Commission) for the way he handled this situation - especially as a defence minister who was intimately involved in every aspect of the control, command and administration of the IDF at the time and particularly with respect to its activities in the Lebanon as you well know and as the report makes very very clear - is unsustainable. Robert Fisk undoubtedly goes too far in describing Mr. Sharon as he does in his new book. Undoubtedly, however, your defence of Israel's current Prime Minister would be more effective if it did not try to ignore the facts....or the actual words of the Kahane Report.

And, a bit more from the Lebanese perspective, a piece I just found in the London Review of Books:

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n15/print/khou01_.html

Louise Arbour went as far as to accuse Israel guilty of war crimes. She seems to ignore the Hizbollah war crimees, such as the rockets specially augmented with ball bearings, which have no military terms but maximize civilian Casualties. ( that's a war crime. )
Mr. Dershowitz comments "Arbour has been biased against Israel for years."
"She is part of the problem, not part of the solution, and should be removed from her important position. Her real calling in life is to become a lobbyist for Hizbollah and Hamas. Come to think of it she is already doing that job."
"The idea that the leadership of Hizbollah could be brought before an international court is absurd. Moreover if Arbour were the judge, they would be acquitted and only the democracies would be convicted."
The UN truly sucks.

Drunk out of your mind again IAMC - still deending Alan Dershowitz - you need to expand your research beyond Ezra Levant's stupid little Alberta rag.

You may not have noticed, even Air Canada dumped the issue you were crowing about that reprinted the Danish cartoons.

You suck!

should be 'defending' not deending: Mea Culpa.

Pouring gasoline on an open fire is not just stupid, it's criminal.

There is a Fatwa proclaimed today from Wahhabi cleric in Saudi Arabia agaist Hizbollah. Not Israel. The hatred this cleric has for these Persian Muslims is encouraging. Rather than a mass of dark Muslim extremists, it appears they are a split worse than we are. In fact I am now learning that this wall of hate, may be crumbling. That there are huge splits within the Muslim community. It's not anything close to black and white.
The divisions on the Western side are not anywhere close to that of the Muslims.
I mean can you imagine the settled Arabs caring one bit for the Nomadic Palestinians? If you do you are uneducated about this issue.
It gives us all hope that this is the case, so don't let anyone fool you into thinking that Israel is the demon in this.

IAMC

Can you actually read? If so, roll back up these threads and do a little reading - it might shut you up for a minute and then you wouldn't make the egregiously stupid remarks you seem congenitally incapable of foregoing.

The only person around here who doesn't care a bit for human values is you and that is at least partly because you're blind drunk every night when you stumble in here around 9 pm dropping pearls of wisdom

You are such a racist.

A UN report dated this year exposes plan to import Uranium 238. The plan was thwarted by Tanzania. As reported by The London Times, last fall a shipment that originated from the Lububasi mine in the Congo.
Please see the UN report from July, this year.
Not that I have any faith in what the UN has to say on ANYTHING.
The Iranians who attempted this importation of Hazardous Goods, into a country that has free oil, and is attempting to lie that they only want nuclear power in order to produce energy cheaply. is a cheap joke.
We can't let these guys get away with this.

Have another drink you racist. No one is listening.

SO, I AM Clueless, do you have something good to say about the UN or not. Just above here you were busy excoriating Louise Arbour and everything the UN represented and tried to do: What's up?

Confused?

Seems to me I heard a few suggestions from your sacred Alberta a while ago concerning the usefulness of nuclear power as a means to extracting oil from the tar sands more cheaply.

I don't think anyone should trust the Alberta government with nukes do you?

I mean, what kind of a jurisdiction has the same government for decades - sounds like a sold-out dictatorship to me.

Europe may think they will get off the hook by sacrificing Israel, to their worst nightmare, Islamofascism.
Gutless ones they are. Stupid as well.
How could anyone believe that to destroy Israel would appease these enemies, is a folly. We are all NEXT, if these A Holes get their way.
G West is listening. He won't be able to let this thread end now, without her further comment.
Let's see what happens in the thread that lasts forever.

Why bother quoting Dershowitz IAMC? Nobody takes him seriously. He's become a cartoon.

Israel in your mind can do no wrong, I get it.

You're confused. The people of Hezbollah are not "Persian Muslims". How would "Persians" get elected to the Lebanese parliament?

You have to think before you write this stuff.

Frank; you should revisit you information. You don't seem to realise that there is not a gloomy, dark, homogenized opposition to the Jews.
The opposition is fractionalised.
Your oppostional is not fractionalised.
We are in harmony agaist the terrorists on all sides.

Have another drink Iamc, you are crazy as a loon.

The only fractionalized person here is you. Unfortunately you're operating on a fraction of a brain. What kind of a civilization do you think Israel is creating with its bombs and missiles in Lebanon – what do you think those people will feel for you and the Israelis now? Heroes, liberators, I think not. In fact, if you can steel yourself to read tomorrow’s New York Times you’ll find a story there about what the Lebanese think of Hezbollah. Here’s the link. When you’re sober check it out:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/06/world/middleeast/06tyre.html?hp&ex=1154923200&en=1da2da8c23c8c426&ei=5094&partner=homepage

This is not a religious problem. Jews and Muslims have lived and worked together for centuries - if you knew any history that wouldn't be such a surprise for you. Treat people with contempt long enough, just like teasing a chained dog, and you'll create a monster. Israel and the United States will reap what they've sown and the losers, alas, will be all of us - witness the 20 odd young Canadians who've died for nothing but Stephen Harper's selfish egomania in Afghanistan since he came to power.

How can you, and he, live with yourselves?

Alcibiades;
The New York Times sucks. They suck you. This rag is a self loathing anti-American publication. I suggest you to go with Hizbollah, the only path for you, obviously. Being a Jew hater, blaming Stephen Harper for a world for something he didn't create, or has any real control of, ( Liberals put us there )
Land for peace doesn't work. Secure borders are a fantasy. Anti-American rhetoric is not heard by me.
Aug. 22 is coming up. And we don't need you to be promoting any more Israel hating thoughts. We Israel supporters are going to prevail against hateful views like yours.
FU Alchi.

IAMC/Ron Erwin
Guess you'll have had a good sleep, collapsing into bed in a drunken stupor after that little tirade. Don't suppose we'll see any more of you for at least 10 hours eh?

Keep it up, your ranting isn't convincing anyone of anything except the obvious fact that you are a pathetic waste of time, a know-nothing who revels in his own ignorance. Why not move back to your precious Alberta where you'll find more characterless individuals to hold your hand?

Keep on pretending - it must be quite a comfort because I'm sure you don't have any friends. What do you do for a living? I can’t imagine you have the temperament to actually deal with the public.

Look at your little post again and then think about whom is doing the hating. Hating you would be a complete misallocation of emotional resources; you are much more valuable as a stalking horse – or Judas Goat, if you prefer.

Keep raving: With every post you help destroy whatever credibility, not much left I admit since the advent of the Bush era, the neocon 'philosophy' has left.

Can I put you down as being 'for' the war in Lebanon then?

Thank you.

Listening to Wolf Blitzer on CNN this morning and his interviews with the US leadership and that of Lebanon, I think it is now obvious that this so-called UN plan to compel a halt to hostilities is not going to fly. It is really a plan to shut down Lebanon's and Hizbullah's armed resistance apparatus while leaving the Zionist occupation forces in place and in control of Lebanon. The Lebanese government itself has declared that it will not comply with this resolution. And Hizbullah says that if it leaves the Zionist forces in place and does not return them back to their own territory, neither will they accept this resolution and/or stop their armed resistance.

Amd The Empire, running interference for the Zionist Occupiers as per usual, has certainly got to know all this. This "plan" of theirs will not fly. Which says to me it is a deliberate exercise in futility, designed to buy more time for the Zionist aggression to continue their devastation of Lebanon.

So none of us should be fooled here, as to the intent of this UN farce being played out, or the roles of the US Empire and the Zionists in it. Though France's apparent willingness to do the dance around the Maypole with Amerika and the Zionists does surprise me some. (But just some. For they along with Germany, even Italy, have their own interest in seeing continued Western domination over the Middle East as well-, they would just prefer to shove The US Empire's nose out of the trough, if they can. Within the limits available to them to do that, of course.)

My prediction is that the war continues, with an ever widening risk of wider involvement going forward. And that will be the case, in all likelihood, until either Amerika and the Zionists crush the Arabs across the region, with the aid of whatever regional client states, or the Arab Resistance and the regional states allied with them prevail, and are victorious.

There is likely no credible middle ground in this-, anymore than there would be in this country or even Amerika if we/they were occupied and/or being interferred with on the ground by a foreign power and interest set.

In any case, like I have said, it is in the "independant" national interest of this country that the Arab/Persian peoples are victorious over Amerika and its Zionist collaborator. Otherwise we set ourselves up for a similar fate in the end, frankly.

G West over on the thread “Finding Family in Lebanon” you made the following remark to Clearcutter.

G West, it is one thing for people to choose sides during a conflict, but to out right distort the truth is another matter, I know you like to exaggerate or over emphasize your pet peeves , but your Remark in regards to “ Israeli school children personalizing munitions before they are taken to the front” is false..
Its more than a little ironic, that you accuse people on these threads of being drunks and raciest , particularly when its you, who distorts a news story about Israeli school children. The story on the news was about, a Jewish parent who was allowing his children to “gather up recent expended rockets and missiles and shrapnel” that their enemies had deployed at them, it was his view and hope that this would act like therapy, to try and dispel some of the fear his children were suffering from the trauma, due to the war around them, and from which they were unable to escape from.
I realize you’re a bit of a codger West, but do try to grow up! .

woody,
Check it out. It's not false. Israeli school kids are writing messages on iron bombs and missiles with felt markers and chalk before they are delivered to the front.
Sad but true. Sorry to disabuse you.

Here's the evidence woody:
http://www.infowars.com/articles/ww3/israel_kids_write_messages_on_bombs.htm

You might have at least tried to find it yourself before you shot your mouth off.

By the way woody, how exactly is this:

taking sides?

Enlighten me codger, please!

And woody/codger if that's not enough for you here's the same story from what ought to be, for you, an umimpeachable source, The Jerusalem Post:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1153291980307

Woody,

You really should check out your knowledge of things before attacking such as GWest here, who has an entirely credible reputation here for near meticulous accuracy-, contrary to the Jerusalem Post wingnut view of Middle East events.

And having read and observed this story on the tellie, if not remembering precisely which show, though likely CNN, as I subscribe to the "know thy enemy" school of political education, I know this story is true, as reported by GWest.

We also know that he is very unlikely to receive an apology from you as well, once we are sure you discover your own too quick willingness to apologize for everything Zionist and US Empire. :-)

Coyote
Thank you for the kind words and a very good long weekend to you and yours.

I wonder if you've read Sidney Blumenthal's latest piece from Salon:

http://www.salon.com/opinion/blumenthal/2006/08/03/mideast/print.html

I think you have to watch a short ad to get access to it - probably worth the trouble.

Many on the left in North America share in the standard European view, holding Israel responsible for the crime of existing. But the great majority here are thankful that Israel is holding her own against the jihad, and we should let them know it.

Codger West from your quoted site, be enlightened.

Codger West you in particular, who extolls the virtues of Law and order, the presumption of innocence theory, its plain to see, you have your own benefit of the doubt theory.
You sure as sh!t never applied any of these theories to the possibility of these pictures and stories being unproven, at least the news I quoted was substantiated.
One other thing Codger while I have your ear, unlike you who sits on the fence swaying from side to side, I have not taken any sides in this religious war.

Go to Drudge and read the stories about Reuters posting digitally doctored photos that exaggerate the damage done in Lebanon.
You are correct Woody, there is a lot of BS flying around right now..

woody
The attribution in the Jerusalem Post story is clear enough. It's hardly surprising the Israeli commenter you cite would try to make the connection to a Palestinian effort which is/was equally repellant.

As I said, and which you conveniently have ignored, a pox on both their houses. Why am I not surprised.

IAMC/Ron Erwin
Surprised you're up so early. That was quite a bender last night.

Matt Drudge!

You sink to lower levels daily.

woody:
Why didn't you post the whole article from the Jerusalem Post?

emphasis added.

Why do you waste my valuable time?

Notice another line in Frenkel's story, the quote from the Israeli public affairs official:

You might want to take that official's advice. There is no way to spin the incident in a positive light. Period. As the official went on to add :"Some people are just irresponsible."

How true!

G west lets not bullsh!t ourselves here, your biased along with the Coyote when it comes to Israel, maybe not to the extent of Coyote but just the same biased.
The purpose of inserting this story of the Jewish kids was an intended put down, but you don’t have the balls to admit though, how do enjoy being in the same camp as the Coyote, feel a mite bit squeamish codger?

Wellll, though I can certainly be accused of many things, not making them necessarily true of course, at least one can't accuse me of being a herd follower, like all ye status quo dingbat wingbats, eh. Thinking yourself, Colon, IAMClueless, noleftnut, capitualism and the ilk.

Ye all spend so much of your time here down on your knees blowing and kissing Yankee and Zionist dick and butt, I'm thinking of having to start calling y'all nightbloom 1, 2, and 3 etc. You've got me concluding it's the shared predilection what gets you off in the blooming night. :-) Next y'all will be getting together to organize a Neocon Pride Day, get City Hall onside and such to make it official and so on.

Hmmmm. I'm even thinking Neocon Marriages as a constitutionally enshrined right.

I'll work on the concept.

Nah, no one will ever go for it. You guys might actually multiply.

Even I'd turn out to that though, a Neocon Pride Parade, to huck Molotov cocktails at ya, and reams of arse wipe. 8-D LOL

Okay, that's it. The Devil's onto me. When this mood strikes, it's time to engage in a little self-flagellation/mortification, and purify myself of all incorrect political thoughts. :-) (Thinking one or two of the Tyee ladies. Preferably two.) :-)

,The mangey warily Coyote says,

Well mangey coyote at least I don’t get down on all fours with G West and peer through each other arse hole reading and sharing the same crap, then end up brown nosing , and ass kissing one another, as you both did 10 threads back.

woody
You are the equal of IAMC/Ron Erwin. Neither of you can read and you're still wasting my time. When evidence and rationality fail you, as they always do, you revert back to type.

As Huxley, I think, put it, 'Logical consequences are the scarecrows of fools and the beacons of wise men.'

Alas so many innocent victims of both sides in this unholy conflict are bleeding and dying for ignorant, selfish and inhumane reasons.

Again I say, as I did above, a pox on both their houses.

G West says

Codger, Not only are you biased, now your being rude,, arrogant, and discriminatory , as you appreciate famous quotes here is one by Rhet Butler-- Frankly Scarlet my dear, I don’t give a fock.

Montreal hosts huge Lebanon peace rally
ROSS MAROWITS

Canadian Press

Montreal - A demonstration billed as a protest for peace assumed a
distinctly anti-Israeli flavour Sunday as protesters denounced the Jewish
state for killing hundreds of Lebanese.

Children carrying two large Lebanese flags and adults who trailed behind
accused Prime Minister Stephen Harper of being an accomplice to Israeli
murder.

"Israel terrorist, Harper accomplice," members of the crowd shouted in
unison as marchers left a downtown park on their journey through city
streets.

Police said more than 15,000 people participated in the rally, making it one
of the largest that took place around the world over the weekend.

Demonstrations also took place in Belgium, Britain, South Africa, Iraq and
Egypt.

A coalition of 60 political, social and union groups invited Montrealers to
join the protest in a massive demonstration for peace and justice in
Lebanon.

They called for an immediate ceasefire that would end hostilities.

Among the many participants were members of the city's Lebanese community,
which numbers about 200,000.

Many held placards denouncing Mr. Harper's handling of the crisis,
particularly his open support of Israel.

"Yo Stevie, they're only dead Arabs," read one sign hoisted by Asem Samhat,
whose home village on the Lebanese border has been turned into rubble by
Israeli attacks.

"Our country has the right to live," the 35-year-old construction worker
said, denying Canada's assertion that Hezbollah is a terrorist group.

While many participants claimed they weren't singling out either side in the
bloody conflict, some carried placards that linked Israel to Nazi atrocities
during the Second World War.

"Israel learned from Hitler and the student has surpassed the master," read
one sign.

A representative of the Quebec Israel Committee said he understands the
desire for peace. But Marc Gold said there is no hope for peace as long as
Hezbollah continues to fire rockets at Israel.

"We all want a peace but a peace that means something not just a pause to
give time for Hezbollah to regroup," he said in an interview.

Mr. Gold criticized rhetoric that singled out Israeli's aggression.

"Demonstrations like this that can find nothing to say except to criticize
Israel and do not focus on the causes of this conflict are unbalanced and
frankly unprincipled."

Political representatives from the Bloc Québécois, Parti Québécois and
federal Liberals denounced Ottawa's handling of the crisis.

"We want to make sure that Canada comes back as a mediator," said former
Liberal immigration minister Denis Coderre.

"We cannot govern a country and manage a crisis by dogma."

Some of the loudest ovations were received by some ultra-religious Jews who
denounced Israel's actions and its right to exist.

"We are totally in opposition in every step of the way to what the state of
Israel is doing," said Rabbi Israel David Weiss, a New Yorker with Jews
United Against Zionism.

"The actual existence of the state of Israel is forbidden by the torah
(Jewish bible)."

Rabbi Weiss marched near the front row of the demonstration, locking arms
with Sayed Nabil Abbas, a representative of the Islamic Shiite Supreme
Council in Canada.

"We don't have any problems against the Jews, our problem is with the
Zionists," said Mr. Abbas.

The demonstration came as Hezbollah and Israel continue to trade violent
strikes that have killed about 700 people in nearly a month of fighting.

bob the cat says

bob the cat,your point being?

woody
Who was it that you said was being rude?

You obviously missed the main point in bob the cat's post which was, for those who need to have it spelled out, that there are a significant number of Jews who, like the Rabbi quoted above, are highly critical of Israel's current actions.

If you read a little more and spent less time criticizing people who do read you might have come to that conclusion yourself.

On the other hand, you wouldn't then be providing the same kind of comic relief that IAMC does here most every night.

This site is full of rude, ignorant people. The type of abuse IAMC recieves on this site is discusting. Give the guy a little slack and enough with the personal attacks. Grow up, attack the opinion and not the person.
Manners 101

As there are a significant amount of Israeli citizens questioning their leaders actions, so are there amongst Arabs and Persians. Arab clerics have declared a fatwa on Hizbollah.
The only difference, is that the citizens of Israel have a chance to vote out the Government of the day, in a free and democratic, audited system that the Arabs or Persians do not, generally.
I trust a thinking democracy to brainwashed terrorists.
The positions put out by the anti-Zionists on this string, are not what we should be adhering to.
I am not surprised by their position, it's par for the course that the left would take a position against Israel, because they equate that to being anti-American.
These people are brain dead, as you can clearly see by the comments coming from the Achi, Mangy Dog and G East.
I actually feel sorry for them. They are suicidal, apparently.

bob the cat,your point being?

Woody your "point"..being?

bobthecat:
I just came across that McLeans article myself elsewhere and was just about to post some juicy sections from it, particularly the part about the organization of ultra religious Jews led by a Rabbi which is against Zionism and against Israel's attacks on Lebanon.

Who'd a thunk it?

Glad to see someone is already on top of this (you)!

IAMC/Ron Erwin
Right on time I see. And you even have a friend just above. Someone who's also apparently prepared to ignore the facts just as you are and do nothing but spout hate and half-truths.

Any time you want to change the atmosphere, change your attitude and your style of address. Otherwise, if you don't like it, leave.

Further infomation is coming out about fabrications from the left, who seem to have a twisted desire to fabricate false information. There is no MAIN SCREAM MEDIA. It's only what we use to source for information, and your viewpoint, that decerns us.
Otherwise, I am confident in my support for Israel.

What fabrications? What information? What are your sources Ron?

Bobb999
I am no expert on Judaism..but I think.. putting it simply.. ultra orthodox Jews see the present state of Israel as idol worship and believe the true state of Israel will only be established with the coming of the Messiah.

An ultra orthodox rabbi once said to a Christian clergyman.. on Christ having "been" the Messiah..."ok ok so when he comes ..we`ll ask him if he`s been here before."
I didn`t get my article from McLeans but from a Jewish lefty site I frequent quite a bit. Seeing as Montreal is in Canada ..and we live in Canada.. the march having significant participation... and the debate seemingly (outside of the usual baiting and name calling by the usual crowd) being on the pro and con of Israeli and Hezbollahs present actions this might have some "points" of relevance.

Alcibiades are you the stand in for bob the cat?
Oh pardon me, who the hell do I think I am, questioning the almighty authority of the ultra left NDP-LIBERAL- Hezbollah supporters, shame on me.
Your obviously another head line reader , happy to accept what ever is not substantiated so long as it agrees with and does not criticize your ideology ,there are about 10 others on this site who are of like minds , were it not for the names, many times one would assume what is being read is from all the same script, very much a monkey see monkey do mentality from your groupie, in addition , your boring, dull writers, and void of logical opinions, facts, thankfully there are many others, who are able to and who do write their thoughts and or opinions clearly, legibly and factually and not have to utilize 5000 words to accomplish their mission.
Bob the cat—reproducing from other sites or news papers is not writing your opinion or thoughts its copying some one else work, it’s one thing to quote a sentence or two but reproducing 6-8 paragraphs, that’s a crock, I’ve seen column after column recopied to these sites, many if not most, were meaning less, I would hope that the tyee would forbid this practice, but the monkey see and do mentality clan are more preoccupied with censoring, those who would oppose or question their writings or even have their own views.

- I'm less confident that you have any coherency at all. I'm not sure if your resistance is towards global learning. We can try for damage control - and our best route of action would be leading the horse to the sea of information. A good place to start to try to patch up your rather leaky information basin you (IAMConfused and Co.) seem to be burdened with is the wonderful resource provided by the rather astute organization called the Jews Against the Occupation: http://www.jatonyc.org/. Therein, you will get some of the history of current states of angst - though I'm uncertain if you know the art of perception and information processing. Going by your handle - things look dubious.
Things are close to blowing mad hatter - religion is a powerful battle call for the literal monotheists - and with the Christians of Lebanon and Palestine being caught in the crossfire - and the Pope thinking Bush is the anti-Christ (and the evangelicals' flights of fancy who support Bush thinking Israel needs to be occupied by the Jews for the second coming of Christ) - I believe the world has indeed inherited the mad gene - and the maddest seem best at reproducing themselves. Where is Budda when you need a calm vegetarian? And why are all nuts conservatives who insist on being armed and logically challenged at the same time? The only thing bearing any certainity is that ignorance and right-wingedness are NOT mutually exclusive phenomena.

Good to read you again Avicenna. I see you've noticed the little right wing eruption here of late.

And woody, my little friend, why would you object to someone posting evidence?

A thing you never have to worry about doing because most of what you write is a sui generis product of your fevered brain and deep-seated prejudices anyway ...constructed of whole cloth not from what is, but from what you wish the world to be.

I thank whatever gods there be that the world, miserable, unfair and frequently rotten as it is, is not in fact any closer to the kind of place it would be if your imagination were a better approximation of reality. As to what you are or are not, the evidence is quite clear.

bob the cat, I'd further add, needs no one to stand in for him. He is more than your master with two, or even three, paws tied behind his back.

Rave on!

Well I hope to think I have kept my right wing diabtribe, exclusive to this thread only.
But I fear I have not.
The Taliban are still killing our Infantry. We have help from NATO know.

Alcibiades, now aren’t you the witty one, but on second thought, I came to the conclusion that your really only a half
Mull that one over, Buddy Holly

Well Im Bushed, Im going to hit the hay, so good night you all.

On the tradgedy of Canadian blood being spilled and lives wasted in Afghanistan for no good purpose I have no trouble agreeing with you for once.

misspelled tragedy, sorry!

Which part of your anatomy were you referring to, or thinking of, when you decided to adopt the 'woody' persona? Or is one permitted to draw one's own conclusions?

You are definitely 'Bushed' as you put it.

bobthecat:
Now that you've described why the ultra-orthodox oppose Zionism (only the coming messiah can establish a Jewish state),the idea sounds familiar. I must have encountered it before somewhere.
I wonder if it's all ultra-Os or just one branch?

Your joke about the rabbi saying when the messiah comes, we'll ask him if he's been here before, is pretty funny!

Certainly, it's a fact very relevant to the discussion, that thousands of Canadians are marching in support of Lebanon and against Israel.
It seems as if it hasn't quite registered with Harper that Canada has a lot of Arab Canadians and Muslims nowadays, or that Arabs in the middle east have some legitimate grievances against Israel. He looks ridiculous (putting it charitably) siding with one country and one group of Canadians over another.

Alci

I was expecting the woody to throw Glen Clark and the fast ferries at you :

didn`t it used to be..pinko commie kike nigger lovers?

Interesting,there was a march by 5,000 Israelis in Tel Aviv protesting the occupation of Lebanon, and mirroring the Montreal march of largely Muslim Canadians.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jayne-lyn-stahl/dereliction-of-duty_b_26659.html

Those early polls, trumpeted in the media, saying something like 95% of Israelis supported the government sending the military into Lebanon, don't seem to likely reflect current Israeli opinion about Israel's destruction of Lebanon's infrastrucure, and the slaughter of civilians.

As Avicenna points out, there is an active peace movement in Israel which opposes strong arm tactics and violence on both sides. These are the people who need to be encouraged, brought into the conversation much more, and given international media coverage on a regular basis. The hawks and "peace through strength" crowd receives way too much
media attention.

btc

I think he, woody, was tired last night; slipped his mind. He'll get back on the horse and drag Glen into it again today, no doubt.

Absolutely bob b-nine.

"I have seen war. I have seen war on land and sea. I have seen blood running from the wounded. I have seen men coughing out their gassed lungs. I have seen the dead in the mud. I have seen cities destroyed. I have seen 200 limping, exhausted men come out of line - the survivors of a regiment of 1,000 that went forward 48 hours before. I have seen children starving. I have seen the agony of mothers and wives. I hate war."
Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Chautauqua, NY, August 1936.

Alcibiades, your the last one who should question ones name ,at least woody is drvied from Canadian culture, woody is known for being rigid, stead fast, additionally, beavers are known to frequent where it’s woody..
You must have dove to the bottom of a east end Vancouver dumpster in order to come up with, with such dull, boreing,bohunk title such as yours, along with being a self proclaimed elitist your dull, boring, your pick ( Alcibiades) shows a lack of imagination and character, you should have considered maybe using a original name like Archie but no that would be to BLA-se, to Canadian , to American .

And, in case there are any war lovers left out there, Dwight Eisenhower - another American president of course who knew something about the horrors of war - put it this way:
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms in not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its labourers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children."
Washington speech, 16 April 1953.

So it was your head!

Alcibiades, well I have two heads one is big , the other is really big, which one turns your crank.

Bobbus ninus maximus

Right on! I`ll post this address again.

http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en

I was wanting to reread your posts on Sheldrake..and structure..ritual space..but couldn`t find it..really good stuff..Leonard Cohen says some similar things..

Alci
bohunk? should have made it commie pinko bohunk etc.

the wood is coming unglued methinks.

Just a taste of the material from the site bob's posted above, for those among us too shy to actually click the link and follow:

The biggest demonstration against the war held in Israel until now took place today (5.8.06) in the heart of downtown Tel-Aviv, an area that is considered especially right-wing.

Close to 10 thousand demonstrators from all over the country, among them many Arab citizens, marched from Ben-Zion Boulevard, along King George Street, to Magen David Square. There, at the entrance to the Carmel market, a stage was set up. The thousands that did not find place in the square flowed over into Nahlat Binyamin and the other neighboring streets.

When the demonstrators were still waiting for the start, a salvo of eggs was thrown at them from the balcony of a building. The perpetrators fled before the police could reach them.

More serious was another act of sabotage. It had been decided to carry a mass of black flags. One of the activists brought the flags to the assembly point before the demonstrators arrived. Suddenly a car stopped, three youngsters got out, seized the flags by force and disappeared. The demonstration had to take place without them.

During the march, the demonstrators shouted (in Hebrew): "Jews and Arabs / refuse to be enemies!" - "We shall not die nor kill / in the service of the USA!" - "Children want to live / in Beirut and Haifa!" - "Peretz, Peretz resign / peace is more important!" - "A million refugees / that's a war crime!" - "Olmert, Peretz and Ramon / Get out of Lebanon!"

The two most popular stickers were Gush Shalom's "Bring the Soldiers Home" and the Israeli-Palestinian Bereaved Families' Forum's "It will not End Until we Talk!"

bob the rat, so what are you the proof reader for the bohunk.
Oh right, almost forgot about your groupie, monkey see as monkey does!

Very heartening bob t.c. and Alcibiades, this Israeli march.

Do you think it will get the coverage it deserves in the National Post and the rest of Canwest's "evil empire"?
I have doubts about that. Maybe they'll have a super-spun version of the protest, emphasizing the opposition to the marchers, spinning the small crowd of
hawks that showed up, into fantastical size, for their poor duped readers, listeners and viewers.

bob t.c. : I shouldn't be surprised Leonard is big on ritual. He's said he has "a family religion" (Judaism), in addition to his Zen Buddhism, making him
a JewBu (Jewish Buddhist), a very common hybrid nowadays, apparently.
...The world could use more of those, I say!

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2006/08/07/afghanistan.html

25 dead Canadians in the name of war, all for greed.

Bobb
just some maybe interesting suddenly remembered Fortean data..I can remember reading the two predominent groups for reported UFO sightings and experiences..Jewish people and North American Indigenous people...A serious study was undertaken by one of the Israeli universities into ..I`m not sure if it was the Cheyenne, Sioux..Cherokee people to determine if they were in fact direct descendants of " The Lost Tribe"..they weren`t.
Yes this march is heartening...the hope is with these courageous people.

woody: I`m sorry but I really don`t know what you`re on about. Has someone hurt your feelings?

No, nobody hurt my feelings.
Are being a smart ass btc, or a candy ass?

So, woody, since you aren't crying somewhere in a corner, perhaps we can return to something constructive and actually pertinent to the subject at hand.

You might enjoy reading Gwynne Dyer's thoughts on the matter.

You can find an archive of his columns here:
http://www.gwynnedyer.net/articles2006.htm

The actual columns pertinent to the current situation are the July 7, 13, 17 and 22 numbers - but there are other things of interest in the archive as well - just for you woody.

Another Jewish organization that doesn't toe the party line, just for you too, woody:
http://www.hostultra.com/~jwceo/jwceo4/

Funny how complicated the real world is when you actually think about it, eh?

And of course there's always Rick Salutin. You can't get him for free at the Globe and Mail, but you can get the same column gratis here:

http://rabble.ca/columnists_full.shtml?x=51624

Read on little one!

Alcibiades, the bloom on the right occurs everytime there are cuts in education. It is amusingly coincidental that I was reading about the brontosaurus - whose body was so large that it had 2 puny brains - a nugget in its head and one in its rear that controlled the movement of its massive rearend - and then I read our woody here has two heads. LOL - it is just icing on the irony cake that a bulk of the neocons don't believe in dinosaurs and the whole evolution thing - yet act like primitive primates thinking blowing things (and people) up are conducive to progress.

I'm not sure if anyone understands the raison d'etre of Israel's temper tantrum that resulted in uniting the Arab world to reign in the seizure-induced nation high on American drugs. A rather wacky explanation was posted in the Toronto Sun http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0806-24.htm - to quote a portion:

-neanderthal is the word of the day

Alcibiades if you want to research and review every site regarding all the wars and religions, ( which incidently is the root cause to all their problems) of and in the far east , then I suggest you go ahead and knock yourself out, these people have been fighting and killing one another for centuries and will continue so for centuries beyond, what ever you and I say will not make one iota of difference, not only that, there is not red cent in debating this, at least not me. Besides I have more interest in reading the Rafe Mair story and threads regarding the hired mouths. Keep your pecker up.

Alciabades please stop posting quotes and articles written by intelligent people. Clearly, Woody can't understand all the big words!

For sure, Avicenna, interestingly enough, there is some talk, a bit of which I'll post below, that Shin Bet had a big hand in this present debacle. I have no idea how accurate or reliable the information is, but here's a bit of what's being said:

Who knows what the truth is? I can’t confirm any of this and it may be a complete fabrication, but, we can be fairly certain it won't impress the dinosaurs...or make them 'think' any more deeply about what they believe.

My apologies to all for not correcting the formatting - I was in a hurry.

I think you're right Tom Joad, posting anything else will clearly cause Woody pain. He's now reverted to his default position: Everything, God help us, is the fault of religion. Ignorance couldn't possibly have anything to do with it.

Thanks Woody. once again proving that civil debate and intelligent discussion is the enemy of the Conservative movement as it exposes (just read this thread) the weaknesses and narrow mindedness of the right. Just like the President says:

"We shouldn't fear a world that is more interacted." --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., June 27, 2006

bobthecat:
That's quite quite an odd statistic, if true, about Jews and North American natives, and UFO sightings?! Bizarre sounding.
...Of course there was Ezekial in the Old Testament seeing the wheel within a wheel in the sky. Latter day Ezekials?

What makes me a bit sceptical is I'm imagining Jews in North America, at least, tend to be urban dwellers, and less likely to be sky watchers (with city lights,tall buildings in the way).

The Mormons believe our N.A. First Nations are lost tribes of Israel. I doubt DNA evidence contrary to their official doctrine will be enough sway them though. A dogma's a dogma!

I have heard that B.C. gets more reports of UFO sightings than any other province.

Bobb999 - re: BC's high report of UFO sightings - I always thought it (the strange sightings) may be due to US combat planes/jets doing their thing over our air - the cold war may be over but their desperate attempt to keep the world under their incompetent eye never ceases.

Alcibiades - I definitely think that there is something fishy in the State of Israel. Their response was very "9/11-ish" - in regards to the rapid rabid response on Lebanon - for an event which is still under a cloud of confusion. Like the fake WMD excuse the US used to infiltrate Iraq with their heinous and unconscionable acts against humanity - Israel also seemed to be waiting for an excuse to go into Lebanon once again. They both cry out the laughable claims to be the victims instead of the perpetrators of war crimes - when in reality it really is a David vs Goliath match. Only those whose thinking faculties have not been burnt out by war propoganda see things as they are - and are left scratching their heads at the madness that reigns around them - trying to make sense of the senseless (for some, as is obvious by a few respondants on this thread - this comes more naturally).

Bobb999 says,I have heard that B.C. gets more reports of UFO sightings than any other province.
Bobb999 how often do you hear these voices in your head telling you of the UFOs. OOOooooweeeooo.

Avicenna excitedly says to Bobb3-9s, I too can hear the voices in your head OOOooooweeooo

Woody: I didn't say I claimed to have seen a UFO. Sorry to disappoint you, but I've never seen anything remotely ET looking, and I've never yet been abducted by little bulbous headed grey dudes(touch wood!). Avicenna said she thinks
US military fly overs are likely the cause.
(Certainly a plausible theory, Avicenna)

...So neither of us are making any controversial claims here...(Check the Sheldrake penned article's comments if you want to see some unusual claims!)

Avicema;\The rate of shark attacks, in Australia raised with the increase the consumption of cream. I state this as a comparison to your idiotic argument that cutbacks in the education budget ( That has not occurred, so I don't know what you are talking about. ) has led to an increase of right wingers plaguing you right now.
If I say that the increases in education funding has made more intelligent people, and thus the rise of conservatism in North America ( Canada, United States ) I guess you would agree with me.

Boob with 3-9s you said (I have heard that B.C. gets more reports of UFO sightings than any other province.)
hence, the voices in your head. dah

IAMC/Ron Erwin
I thought maybe you had learned some manners. Guess not. You and woody are now officially the Katzenjammer Kids of illogic and vituperation. Neocon and Elliot have passed the baton to you, hold it high with un-ironic pride as the two of you stumble along with your feet in each other's mouth.

Of course you don't understand, you never do!

IAMC let me introduce you to Codger West he's the self appointed head of the groupie 10 bunch , they all still live at home with their parents.

I knew I could count on you woody. Well done!

"right field" said,

Ah, a new guy. I assure you that IAMC/Ron gives as good as he gets. I'm still in therapy over being called a Jew-hating fascist trying to put forward a new and improved, lemony-fresh, Final Solution because I said attacking Lebanon would simply make Hezbollah stronger. I now realize Ron was just attacking the opinion and didn't mean the Eichman jab either...

The Tyee is the favourite web site of many of us and we thus spend a lot of time here being entertained by and attacking each other's ludicrous opinions.

I like to think of Ron as this site's version of the coyote from Bugs Bunny, the one with the sheepdog. Ralph and Sam I believe they were called. Sure we beat him up all day but its only because Capitalism isn't always around.

G West,
You've forgotten ignorance. That all too human characteristic of which Beveridge said:
Ignorance is an evil weed, which dictators may cultivate among their dupes, but which no democracy can afford among its citizens.

With the current level of support for Stephen Harper crashing as it is, I'd say that this country may soon have a chance to prove that it is not a dictatorship. Although I'm certain Steve would much rather it were...there is nothing more dangerous than self-righteous stupidity.

Alcibiades:
Using ignorance as a yardstick of democracy, the US fails miserably, considering a majority of Americans still believe Saddam had WMDs at the start of the war, and that he was an Al Qaida ally.
Gullible morons led by the nose.

Teus. Aug 8: It's Senator(not for long)Joe Loserman day! Bye bye Joe (I realize it's still only the primary)!

Bobb999
That is, of course, the most delicious irony of all. The country which defines itself most prominently as the avatar of democracy is, in many ways, the furthest from that ideal.

Both in terms of the way voting is actually done and, more importantly, in terms of the way the rotten boroughs are bought and paid for.

The fact that the current government is also an avatar of ignorance, know nothingness, secrecy and under the table manipulation just makes the parallel sweeter.

Bob999;
Sadam did have WMD's, the story has been broken slowly, because MSM is too embarrassed to admit they were wrong. I am sure you will never admit it, even if one of his ricin devices blew up in your face.

Just as an aside here, to this Lebanon conflict, I hope you are all noticing the effectiveness of the Hizbullah mulitary system, its command and field structure, somewhere in between and effectively balancing a guerrilla style of strategic and tactical form, with elements of a stand and fight conventional military. If you recall some of our past conversations around the military forms we have discussed for our own national military, especially in relation to any possible future military threat from the US Empire, I would refer you to this Hizbullah model as most closely reflecting the military command structure, strategical and tactical model that I advocate for, only secular-, embracing all "ideas" views of the universe if you will.

While it works here in Lebanon as a kind of militia military network outside the "state military system", I see no reason whatsoever it could not be just as well integrated into that state military system, as an operational model for the defence of Canads from foreign generated invasion and occupation threats.

It is merely a matter of will, realignement of the military's "traditional" command structure and its re-education, along with that of the average fighting person, and integrated into their training regime, such that it flows naturally.

In short, where the numbers and arms equivilancy are absent to meet an invading army on the open field of battle, there needs to be more creative thinking, development of structural forms and military tactics. As it is, there is too much staid thinking and dependancy upon, and bending the knee to our British Empire past military schooling, and our US Empire integrated and beholden present.

I was a contactee for about 10 years...I had to break off...it had become too bizarre.. and say goodbye to my inter stellar friends..I was about to become a father and had to settle down to providing.
When my son was born..I was so proud..I wished my old friends to see him..Living in a log house in the Upper Hat Creek We awoke one night to a bright light shining on the crib..looking out the window ..a dark shape with a very bright light was hovering noiselessly near..the details couldn`t be made out as the main light was very bright..they were very low..the light shining and moving about on the crib was a secondary light..much like the semiphore spot lights on deep sea vessels..I could sense.. though couldn`t see.. due to the bright light "crewmen"
on an outside deck..they remained for hours..and had began to very slowly ascend when we fell back asleep..I had thought of leaving the house and walking beneath them but a very strong feeling warned me to remain inside the house. " Better not"
My wife won`t talk of it to this day...I`ve never told her they were here on invitation..

Careful what you wish for.

I have considered the UFO phenomena possibly a human creation..they are manifestations originating from human mind.

In today's Washington Post, indications that Bush's lies and Republican arrogance may be catching up to them:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/07/AR2006080701120.html

IAMC/Ron Erwin. Of course he did - he got them - in the main, from the US and used them to fight a US proxy war with Iran.

But the WMD that Bush lied about before he started his latest utterly dicreditied empire building war against Iraq - give me a break - that's nothing but a Rush Limbaugh occicontin-induced dream. You're not on drugs as well as booze are you?

Anyone watch CTV Newsnet this monrning? They are showing a series of "doctored" photos that were published in Rueters and other newspapers. The photos of course show exaggerated damage and attacks by the Isreal army in Lebanon.
Interesting stuff.

yeah both, but that doesn't stop me from seeing the truth, not the truth as per MSM ( Reuters ), if you believe all that BS, you are not looking hard enough.
Alci, you should see all the news out there that indicates, much of the information we are getting from Lebanon is faked.

Baloney IAMC/Ron
Here's some more evidence of just how utterly incompetent and feckless your heroes in Washington actually are:

http://www.belgraviadispatch.com/2006/08/speechless_again.html

Right field: the photographer in question was fired; more than I can say for the POTUS - who still doesn't realize Rumsfeld is his greatest problem.

Ron/IAMC
I thought so, about the booze and drugs, it shows! You and Limbaugh are twins.

I guess this is the kind of thing you wanted me to look at is it?

From the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz:

There are no white hats in this tussle, get over it!

There is an article in the National Post today. It describes an incident where three Israeli commandos get dropped somewhere in Lebanon.
They are dropped by helicopter, they had grown beards and wore no uniforms. Their mission is to storm an apartment where a rocket launcher is hidden.
The Commander is the first one to break through the door of the apartment. He takes a bullet through his lung. The other two kill the adult, males inside.
They then make their escape through a hail of bullets. The Commander lives.
Now why would they go through such a risky mission, when they could have easily dropped a bomb on the apartment building? So they wouldn't kill any innocent Lebanese civilians, that's why.
I wish Hizbollah was so polite.

bobthecat:
I'm not sure we're on the right thread for this topic...but,you're evidently more adventurous than me, I should say.
I like some of Jacque Vallee's theories about such phenomena. He now doubts the ET explanation too, yet doesn't buy into conventional explanations either.
(I expect Woody's going to be on our case
soon).

As for the "doctored" photos of so much pivotal concern to IAMC; why this guy doctored them in the first place is a mystery to me. The fact is that the originals are far better and more dramatic photos of the Zionist inspired carnage anyway.

Big hairy, IAMClueless.

And the other "photoshoped" picture merely added in two more flairs, presumably for effect, dropped from the Zionist aircraft to distract any missles that might be sent their way.

Again, deceptive, no doubt, but certainly not earth shakingly so, or powerful indicators that might change the essentials. I mean, no worse than a bald man wearing a rug, or a flat chested woman falsies.

The Zionist "disproportionate response" carnage remains still overwhelmingly lopsided, destructive and criminal enough to be obvious.

And that can't be "doctored" up by you, the Zionist Occupation Forces, or their arms supplier enabler and Master, the US Empire.

And ehhhh, Hizbullah is winning. :-)

There is more from Reuters. They released photos of the same woman, wearing the same clothes, mourning in front of two diferent homes in Lebanon.
Homes that were destroyed. Two, in the same day. I guess they think we are stupid.

Sorry Bobb999 Im unable to expound on your topic, Im more a believer in Tinker Bell the fairy and her magic wand.
I can visual her now, flying low looking for parasites, ready to sprinkler her magic dust on them, make them return to their natural state, maggots ,oh,oh look she’s circling she spotted something, look it’s, it’s, Bobb999 and Alcibiades and bob the cat and G West and a mangy looking thing, it’s the Coyote. Look, she sprinkled her magic dust on them, they all disappeared, wait, look what are those 5 little spots left there on the side walk where they stood , it’s fly sh!t, they have all returned to their natural state.

woody
You keep proving more persuasively with every post what Martin Luther King said about ignorance:

"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."

As for you and Ron/IAMC, there's a quotation from the gospel of Matthew that seems to fit the case of the two of you pretty well.

'They be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.'

Alcibiades as I said before, you have no class, no imagination, no pizzazz ,you’re a bore, no wonder you’re a bible thumper, are you a new born again Christian, or a bored again Christian. You really are a low life, you did your damdest to try and get me into a pissing match with you on the Rafe Mair thread , because you failed, your pissed, well to bad for you, jerk off.

Bobb999 yes..way off topic..apologies to all..think I meant it for the other thread..I don`t know Vallee..I`ll have to investigate further..

Woody Allan he ain`t huh?

woody
I've been called a lot of things. Never before a bible thumper though. That's a new one - scraping the bottom of the barrel I guess. You might want to check with nightbloom as to my bona fides as a Christian.

It's actually not necessary to get into a fight with you woody, you manage to destroy whatever credibility a non-entity like you might have every time you put your paws on the keyboard. I don't have to say a thing, let alone stoop to the level you and IAMC/Ron Erwin inhabit.

I could quote examples.

However, I can understand why you might be envious of someone who actually has a brain.

I take it I can put you down as positive for the war in Lebanon then.

I've already stated my thoughts on the war, remember.
I realize you have some sort of a brain,but, its your mind that's not functioning.

You don't have any thoughts, you just pick up half-baked ideas while you're trolling through cyberspace. Like mud on a rolling stone.

Hey guys:

Woody is here not for adult debate particularly. He's here to get rises out of people through needling, belittling, insulting, making outrageous statements, etc. It's all in aid of his nasty juvenile idea of entertainment!

It's behaviour typical of grade school.

(Take that, Woody).

I guess I do have to post a few examples of woody's wit and wisdom (in no particular order, but all from this thread):

Oh right, almost forgot about your groupie, monkey see as monkey does!

I have two heads one is big , the other is really big,

your the last one who should question ones name ,at least woody is drvied from Canadian culture, woody is known for being rigid, stead fast, additionally, beavers are known to frequent where it’s woody..

You must have dove to the bottom of a east end Vancouver dumpster in order to come up with, with such dull, boreing,bohunk title such as yours, along with being a self proclaimed elitist your dull, boring, your pick ( Alcibiades) shows a lack of imagination and character, you should have considered maybe using a original name like Archie but no that would be to BLA-se, to Canadian , to American .

Codger, Not only are you biased, now your being rude,, arrogant, and discriminatory , as you appreciate famous quotes here is one by Rhet Butler-- Frankly Scarlet my dear, I don’t give a fock.

Well mangey coyote at least I don’t get down on all fours with G West and peer through each other arse hole reading and sharing the same crap, then end up brown nosing , and ass kissing one another, as you both did 10 threads back.

G west lets not bullsh!t ourselves here, your biased along with the Coyote when it comes to Israel, maybe not to the extent of Coyote but just the same biased.
The purpose of inserting this story of the Jewish kids was an intended put down, but you don’t have the balls to admit though, how do enjoy being in the same camp as the Coyote, feel a mite bit squeamish codger?

Are being a smart ass btc, or a candy ass?

Pretty intelligent stuff, you have to admit.

I fact, reading back over that stuff, I think you make IAMC/Ron Erwin look like a moderately intelligent human being.

Alcibiades at least now when you wish to use a quote ,rather than go to the bible, now you have your own bank of quotes by “woody” . I noticed you over looked my fly sh!t quote, why, too funny for you.
Do you have a speech impediment, lisp or hair lip? I couldn’t help but notice how you started your last thread, here is a complementary copy for you.

Robert Fisk, reporting from Beiruit, August 5, 2006:

That's it for today, ally, have to work now, good night.

Just thought I'd drop in a syntax and grammar error from time to time so you wouldn't feel badly.

Proud of yourself yet little one?

I understand. I guess you have deliveries to make, bye!

It's okay, you won't be missed and Ron will show up for the late shift, no doubt.

Watching CBC Newsworld I noticed that the Lebanese armed forces are very weak indeed. The idea that they can keep peace is laughable.
I hope NATO gets involved, in a coupe of months, once Hizbollah is toast, that it isn't the UN. After all they failed in their last mandate in Lebanon.
They showed the UN Ambassador responding to the Ambassador from Lebanon, at a security council meeting, point out the the statemnt from them did not ever mention the word 'Hizbollah'.
Like an elephant in your bathroom. How can you ignore it?
With the reports of faked journalism coming from that region. I have to point out, you leftists claim MSM is on our side ( the right side ) , and yet I consider MSM on your side ( the liberal side ).
There was an anonymous poll taken within US journalists. About 70% of respondents would have voted for the Democrats.

IAMC/Ron Erwin
Where do you get your ideas? Do you ever read any of the material that's posted here?

How many times does one have to make the point with you that opinion here is not monolithic?

You can't seem to understand that the entity you call the 'left' doesn't even exist - and certainly not as a single set of opinions.

I've tried dozens of times to point out the fact that I support neither side in this ridiculous slaughter. Why can't you understand that? Still, you assume everyone on the left is anti-Israeli. It just isn’t true and your constant spouting nonsense makes you look completely ridiculous.

As for believing in polls, I’d say anyone who thinks anonymous polls aren’t worth the time it takes to cite them. If you don’t know the questions asked and the make up of the sample, as well as the methodology you’re no wiser after the poll than before.

Have you ever heard of a poll that wasn't anonymous?
Whenever I quote a poll, I am careful.
It's like the CFAX poll I quoted. Whenever the results are 70% plus I take it seriously. Even if you take 20% off, you have a strong indication of discourse.
There is a special place in Hell for those that decide to remain neutral.
I know what side I support. You are wimpy G West.
The left does exist. How can you deny it? George Soros is pulling your strings.
Exreme leftist that you are.

IAMC/Ron Erwin
You don't know which side is up. An anonymous poll is useless because one doesn't know the methodology, the sample size or the margin of error. That is the kind of thing Conservative and some Liberal pollsters do all the time when they conclude their party’s support is increasing. Many of the polls you seem to think are meaningful are push polls - designed specifically to return a pre-determined or favourable result.

You might want to do a little research into statistical methods when your head is clearer.

Two weeks ago, you posted here that polls were useless and you never paid them any mind. What do you really think?

Of course the left exists - the point is it's not monolithic. Many liberals and leftists actually support Israel; many don't. An increasing number of conservatives, which you clearly know nothing about, are also critical of Israel, as they are of the Bush administration and its disingenuousness and the mess it has created in the world. A number of conservatives of my acquaintance are appalled at the mess ‘Steve’ has gotten this country into in less than 8 months in power

No one pulls my strings. Ever.

You post the following sentence:

Pray tell, what does that mean? On the other hand, is it just another indication that you've had too much to drink again tonight?