I'm speachless........................

In order to give cover for an Iran invasion Britain or the US will stage some kind of incident, although I doubt it would do anything for the popularity of either Bush or Blair....but then it doesn't have to. We've been warned that a "terrorist' attack could mean martial law.

Yes, I expect an attack, but that doesn't mean I buy the cover story.

Um, O.K. . I hear if you cover your head in tin-foil it can stop the government from reading your thoughts too. Don't worry, you're not paranoid/delusional, "they" are out to get you!

London Bombing Data page:
http://www.prisonplanet.com/archives/london/index.htm

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/london_exercise_video.html
Bruce Lait, was in a tube carriage in which an explosion occurred:

"As they made their way out, a policeman pointed out where the bomb had been. "The policeman said 'mind that hole, that's where the bomb was'. The metal was pushed upwards as if the bomb was underneath the train. They seem to think the bomb was left in a bag, but I don't remember anybody being where the bomb was, or any bag," he said. [Cambridge News]

Are we to believe that a suicide bomber was strapped beneath the carriage when he detonated the explosives?"

Being accused of wearing a tinfoil bonnet is the price one seems to pay for not having a cranial-rectal inversion.

Inform yourself!

Madrid 3/11 train bombing suspects
linked to Spanish Security Services

London Times, 20 June 2004
globalresearch.ca 22 June 2004

The URL of this article is: http://globalresearch.ca/articles/OWE406A.html

The Spanish investigation has revealed that two individuals involved in allegedly supplying explosives to the alleged 3/11 Madrid terrorists were police informers. More specifically Rafa Zouhier, was a police informer to an elite unit of the Guardia Civil known as Unidad Central de Operaciones, UCO). The second individual, Jose Emilio Suarez Trashorras, was an inforrmer to the National Police Corps, more specifically the narcotics brigade of Aviles (Cuerpo Nacional de Policia del jefe de la Brigada de Estupefacientes de Aviles).

Deafening silence of the Western media: The few press reports (outside of Spain), while acknowledging the names of the individuals, fail to mention the links of these individuals to the Spanish police.

The wife of Trashorras had in his possession the telephone number of the Head of Tedax, Juan Jesus Sanchez Manzano. Tedax is Spain’s Civil Guard bomb squad , a very specialized division of the the Spanish police. A official of the this special unit was in fact involved in the deactivation of one of the bombs which was to be placed in the train.

In a related development, the three Moroccans accused of the 3/11 attacks were released. The latter had been arrested following the death of seven prime suspects, who allegedly "blew themselves up in a suburban flat rather than surrender."

Below is a short news clip in The London Times, followed by the Spanish news report published in El Mundo, Madrid.

Michel Chossudovsky, 22 June 2004

Bomb squad link in Spanish blasts

by Edward Owen

THE man accused of supplying the dynamite used in the al-Qaeda train bombings in Madrid was in possession of the private telephone number of the head of Spain’s Civil Guard bomb squad, it emerged yesterday.

Emilio Suárez Trashorras, who is alleged to have supplied 200kg of dynamite used in the bombs, had obtained the number of Juan Jesús Sánchez Manzano, the head of Tedax.

The revelation has raised fresh concerns in Madrid about links between those held responsible for the March bombings, which killed 190 people, and Spain’s security services, and shortcomings in the police investigation. Señor Suárez Trashorras and two other men implicated in the bombings have already been identified as police informers. Other members of the group had evaded police surveillance, despite concerns within the security services about their activities and evidence of their association with al-Qaeda.

The telephone number of Señor Sanchez Manzano was contained in a Civil Guard dossier handed to Juan del Olmo, the investigating judge, at the National Court in Madrid. The number was written on a piece of paper found in the possession of Carmen Toro, the wife of Señor Suárez Trashorras. Both are in custody accused of supplying dynamite used in the Madrid bombs.

Gee Nana
I was in Malaysia Nov 2001, the Muslims were busy selling Osama Bin Laden t-shirts and celebrating the attack, I wonder if the “Secret Cabal” gets the royalties from the t-shirt sales to finance their nefarious plots?

Presently Canada is worth more to the bad guys as a safe haven, finance centre and staging ground then as a target. If the equation changes then we would be considered an easy target with a minimal security system, easy border access and large amounts of unprotected infrastructure.

I'm not expecting an attack because a rich but security-lax country like Canada is very valuable to rebellions. Terror groups like the Babbar Khalsa and Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam have extensive recruiting and canvassing networks in Canada. It is reasonable to assume that Islamists would be no less keen to exploit our weaknesses. Also, we have an open border to the Great Satan.

Blowing up the CN Tower or something might inspire Canada to crack down hard on potential terrorists, which is not something that would be to their strategic advantage.

What places this country in the greatest danger in the US Empire's global "war on terror", code speak for war against the people of the Middle East for land, control and treasure, is the decision of the Liberal and Conservative government to stand too close to the Empire. And our intervention in Afghanistan on behalf of that Empire has now really put our troops and us directly into harms way. Hopefully, one of the consequences of that will not be that it will now be brought onto our own national territory. Though now, I would not bet the farm.

What we need is a national foreign and military policy that serves the interests of our own people and nation, and let the US Empire worry about themselves. The greatest threat to our peace and national sovereignty does not come from the direction of the Middle East, at least before our intervention in the Middle East as another US Empire bootlick state.

Support Our Troops. Bring Our Soldiers Home From Afghanistan, NOW!

We need them here to serve and protect the independent national interests of our own country, not those of the friggin' US Empire.
(Shiva considered and rejected.)

To the extent which we allow and tolerate our State to send troops as part of a foreign occupation force serving the US Empire anywhere, we share the responsibility for that and agree to becoming a potential target for their enemies.

That's the real lesson of 9/11 and the London and Madrid bombings, and those yet certainly to come.

OUT NOW!

It's these goddamned US Empire Loyalist Neocons who don't serve our nation or support our troops. Rather they would have both us and them serve those of Imperial Amerika.

Colin sez ...

yammer sez ...

haraldkann sez ...wait til the 2010 Olympics with a Worlwide Platform .

til then I ,think we should be safe...MAYBE[B]

Nana,

The Neocons, of course, are going to suggest that you are wearing one of their "tinfoil hats." I, however, will not so quickly write your views of the "terrorist bombings" off as total lunacy. Both the US and Britain have, no less than the Nazis with their burning of the German Reichstag in order to justify their suppression of the Communists, demonstrated their capacity for treachery, even against their own people and to manipulate media, in order to get them on the ruling class side of issues.

Indeed it would be in a long tradition of State treacheries. Even the RMS Lucitania incident, the British ocean liner bound for New York which was officially sunk by a German U boat in 1915, has long endured a theory that in fact it was sunk by the British themselves, to bring the United States into the First World War on Britain's side. But then, there are too many such historical "incidents" for me to get into here right now. (Must be off to the Credit Union.)

I will read your links with some interest, Nana-, be they tinfoil hat or not. :-)

A good day to you.

Besides, we know who really wear the tinfoil hats here, don't we? ;-)

Coyote
A serious question, I know that your preference is to keep our army home and to equip it for national defence. Does that mean that you would preclude them from taking part in UN sanctioned operations?

Colin,

The minute one raises the issue of the UN, in my understanding of its "real" as opposed to "idealized" role in the world, I begin to add "qualifiers".

By and large, the UN has been much subject to the manipulation, control and vetoe power of the "great powers", especially the US. So I think we should basically take the position of the US themselves, or Israel for that matter, and say-, "it depends" on whether we agree with it or not.

Now, its's possible that a UN may evolve one day that reflects the true democratic will of the majority citizens of the world. We sure as hell ain't there yet. It still much remains an instrument of the "Security Council", in which the US has much exercised control, and the exlusive "great power" club exercises a vetoe, to the exclusion of most states.

I think Canada should be fundamentally "unaligned" however, save closer to the smaller and "mid level" powers of Latin America and Africa etc., who have an interest, at least the same as mine in "controlling or mitigating" against the excessive exercise of global power by the so-called "great powers".

First, is the primary territorial, economic and national interest of this country, in my list of priorities, along with the pursuit of a policy of "non-interference" in the internal affairs of other countries, at a second level, the protection of small and mid level powers closer to ourselves from the excesses of global power exercised by the historically and currently "imperial" states, i.e. a policy of anti-imperialism, and finally working for the creation of a UN that is truly a reflection of the democratic interests and will of the majority global citizenry, at least in the creation of a balance of power between big and "smaller" states. And I ain't saying this latter objective is going to be easy. But until then, the reality is, everyone has to look after themselves and their own "home" interests as a primary consideration.

Canada needs especially to move out from the shadow of influence and control of first, the United States and secondly the now second rate old British Empire regime, and to build a community of its own interest, closer to the rest of Latin America and other "non-aligned" nations-, and finally, trade with everyone save with restictions on those we decide are engaged in acts of imperialism/empire extension. (A threat which we live under and close to ourselves.)

My view.

You people worry too much

Has anyone come across a cost/benefit analysis been done of what it would take for Canada to truly go it alone in national defense?

I anticipate that Coyote, say, would take the view that, regardless of cost, it would be preferable not to cooperate with the imperialist aggressor in any sense.

That's fine, but then what? Seems to me that if Canada was actually to get out from under the NORAD cover, we'd be faced with the unavoidable, humongously expensive task of setting up an independent, effective territorial defense pretty much from scratch (wee basically have no navy or air force).

I know that Gwyn Dyer thinks we can just mine the harbours and be done with it, but we'd need air support and missiles too. The Swiss have an excellent defensive military, but of course they have a totally different geographical setup -- they need tanks, for example.

I assume that this study has been done already somewhere. Worth thinking about the costs and benefits, I guess.

"I anticipate that Coyote, say, would take the view that, regardless of cost, it would be preferable not to cooperate with the imperialist aggressor in any sense." Yammer.

Well, for starters, you've got that right. (And I have great respect for Gwynn Dyer as a military analyst.)

Secondly, the development of our own primary defence industries is not all a negative. Indeed, so long as one is not actually engaged in a war, which destroys military assets and bleeds down treasure,but is merely "building up" the defensive capacity of the nation, such development becomes like any other job creation, skill development, wealth creation and environment draining economic activity. Indeed, military spending within capitalism has often been used at this stage to "stimulate" economic activity in its "trickle down and outward" effects.

So, depending on what perspective one is looking at it from, military preparedness economic activity is no different than building roads or any other economic infrastructure. There are positive and negative aspects.

I would suggest that in the case of this country, in fact, which has never completed its all round industrial and other economic development, but has been directed by "economic imperialist" influences toward resource extraction and export, that a policy directed towards our own military self-sufficiency would be a "positive", and have a rounded economic development dynamic built into it. (Had it been in place long ago, for example, we would now have our own Avro Arrow, or some such fighter sitting on our air base tarmacs, and the jobs and incomes having gone to our own communities, rather than job and treasure exporting US fighter and other aircraft. Ditto our armour, light arms and other needs.)

Now, it's possible that a cost/benefit analysis is out there, and I will certainly go looking for it, and bring back what I find here. But even Yammer and our Neocons, claims he not to be one, and the sense of what I hae said above should be immediately obvious.

Which summarizes,"Military preparedness produtction/economic activity is like any other economic activity-, generally a bonus, not without its environmental "cost" like any other, which only becomes a "negative" if one actually goes to war. At which point you begin to destroy assets and bleed down "treasure" and manpower.

Think about it.

Possible terrorist attacks? Sorry, it's already happening. Last week a gang of masked thugs shut down rail traffic in the main Toronto-Kingston-Hamilton corridor. And they're still at it. I don't have a lot of confidence in the ability of our governments to defend ordinary citizens if they won't uphold the rule of law.

General Hillier just had a big kafuffle with Harpon re the former's statement tht her would prefer new "light lift" planes, (to move military assets around Canada, implied but not said,) over the Conservative governments intention to build, "heavy lift" aircraft, (which we will need if we are going to follow the US Empire in its wars around the world).

If we have to have a military capability, I would agree with General Hillier, hands down. Though I disagree with him on the Afghanistan adventure. But then, he has no choice if he wants to hold onto his job. (Guess where we will be buying those "heavy lift" aircraft and at how much greater cost, than say if we built those "light lift" ones ourselves, allowing for the jobs etc and tax monies that would then stay "in country"?

You Neocons really do need to think more deeply about this entire issue of tying yourselves to the US Empire, with your assumptions that it all a positive. It comes at a huge cost to the economic and development interest of your own country-, whether or not we agree on status quo capitalism

Coyote
Thanks for answering my question. I wish that we did have a better defence industry, but having seen the stuff that came out of Bombardier and that Kelowna company, My hopes are not high.

Lets assume that we did follow your path. In the case of “Light” vs “Medium” lift aircraft (C130 vs the C17) One could argue that the bigger aircraft are required to support the possible UN missions that you have allowed for. Considering that Canada right now depends on leased Russian Antovs that are getting very long in the tooth, there is expected to be a shortage of long range lift aircraft in the world by 2015. Canada would be well positioned to help the UN or “our non-aligned friends” if we had that long range lift capacity. Thoughts to ponder.

Ah, but I have not. I am assuming that you inadverantly "misinterpreted" me.

But then perhaps I should have simply categorically said that under the current UN form and arrangement, and given current "Big Power" dominance over it, I am not in favour of making a carte blanche committment to the UN. Indeed I think we should avoid it at just about all costs, barring "very special" circumstanes, PERHAPS. (Which I cannot forsee.)

I think Canada should stay out of the business of following the BIG POWER dominated UN, or the US Empire around the world as a matter of policy assumption.

Get the C17s and focus on "home defence". Once that is dealt with and digested, and our expertise nailed nown there, then we can look at the world situation at that time. Hopefully it will be post-US Empire, Capitalists Russia and/or China will not pose a threat, and there is a more egalitarian UN forma and world situation. (No. I am not holding my breath.)

That is my view.

And, barring a sudden invasion of Canadian territory that catches us with our pants down and no previous possibility, I am in favour of a universal vote of the Canadian citizenry, a national referendum if you will, before this country engages in any war outside of of our own national territory.

Now the ruling class and cons here will whine about the "lack of understanding" of the issues of the masses, their lack of military expertise etc. etc., but frig 'em. The "average woman or man" is as capable of determining "the national interest" as any of these fuqs. They likelihood certainly is that they or theirs will be asked to do the dying.

It's one of those "new laws" the new society is going to need, by way of circumscribing ruling class power, once the decision has been made to move away from the norms of capitalism. :-)

I remember the analysis done during the Vietnam War for US spending. Job creation by military spending was far below spending on health, education, transportation, etc.

Our problematic neighbor to the south of us already has the power ....and the permission from the Martin government, to invade us up to 400 miles north of the border without notification. Who else is going to invade Canada?

Yup.

No one else of whom I am aware. :-)

And I'm agreed with you, re the jobs and social value of defence industry development. But to the extent the threat exists, and for that frankly, I look mostly south, it becomes a necessity. And I do think there is a need to keep a "prudent eye" out for such other "Empire ambitions" as may be emerging from out of global capitalist development. And two, like I say, that come immediately to mind are Capitalist China and Russia. (Though they certainly show no signs of being a threat to us at this point. But given the historical way in which "dynamic and aggressive" capitalist development seem linked to "imperialist behaviours", one would be foolish not to, again like I say, "Maintain a prudent eye."

But immediately, a Canada that might choose to begin to move away from the shadow of US Empire influence and control, and strike off on a course of its own independant economic and political development, in my view, faces no other threat than that which may come fromt the United States. And for which it would need to prepare at some level.

And hopefully that will prove out to be wrong. I just wouldn't count on it. (They have this history.)

Currently they pose no real threat to us because we lie with our legs or cheeks spread, and let them have their way with us. Reasonably effective, but humiliating, and for which we pay with our independant economic development potential,

The dark forces of Islamist Extremism is not at war with the US only, they are trying to bring down western civilisation. Canada is part of western civilisation. We are at risk.
Now should we listen to those that blame the US for our uncertain state ? No, they are fools and I wonder if they are actually hoping our lifestyle is destroyed, in order to justify their constant bleating against capitalism.

Give your head a shake IAMC, Moussaui and Reid the shoe bomber...the "dark forces of Islamic extremism" indeed.

We are at risk from Washington, London, Jerusalem, Canberra and now Ottawa. If anything it's Anglo/Israeli terrorism we should fear....they are the ones with the bombers, missiles and nuclear warheads.

So the US Empire and its coalition of boolickers would like to convince us, of which there is zero evidence to here. Those western states which have been attacked have been of assistance to the US War against the people of the Middle East, or Middle East regimes themselves who have acted as puppet states for The Empire.

But which situation for us has now changed and suddenly become more dangerous because of the decision of the Martin and Harpo regimes, aided and abetted by our own US Republican Style Neocons to involve us in this US war for Empire. It is they and no others who have now brought the change in danger to ourselves-, for no good purpose other than to be good little US Empire Loyalists and colonial servants of Amerika.

I Am Clueless is a full load of bricks short of a load. He is a Clueless panderer after US Empire favour, and betrays the interests of his own country, entirely possibly now bringing the wrath of The Empire's enemies down upon us.

They are traitors to the nation and our people, and should be treated with the contempt of such. Other countries know how to deal with such people. We need to learn, fast.

Support Our Troops! Bring Them Home Now! End The Humiliation of Our Pandering to The US Empire.

A chuckle I heard a comedian relate: when Bush talks about a "war on terra" (his pronunciation) he is NOT mispronouncing the word - he really does mean a WAR ON TERRA

I'm with nana on this whole issue; 911 WAS Herr Cheney's 'fire in the Reichstag', and the US administration's history of False flag operations is well known:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_flag

I feel like puking when I hear people parrotting the lies and crap oozing from the likes of Dubya, Rumsfeld, Harper, and all of those who profit from suffering and murder and waste. 350,000 barrels per day of fuel to destroy a country and the lives of Iraqis. 2300 Canadian troops (and getting less each day) to further the agenda of these monsters in their WAR ON TERRA.

Who is behind "Al Qaeda in Iraq"? Pentagon acknowledges fabricating a "Zarqawi Legend"
by Michel Chossudovsky

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=CHO20060418&articleId=2275

"

"The Pentagon documents leaked to the Washington Post regarding Zarqawi have revealed that Al Qaeda in Iraq is fabricated.

"The suicide attacks in Iraq are indeed real, but who is behind them? There are indications that some of the suicide attacks could have been organized by the US-UK military and intelligence. (See references below pertaining to British Special Forces Soldiers caught Planting Bombs in Basra.)" see article for link to the false flag operation.

We know they are liars. They started lying before they went into Iraq, and have never stopped. They are still lying, and our own US Empire Loyalist Neocons are helping to spread their lies, and want us to live the lie with them.

Be like me. IAMC.

Fuq!

Coyote

You run with the assumption that everyone who agrees with the war ties himself to the US Empire.

I don't think so. I think you can be an ally and not a subject. I also think you cannot be afraid of looking like a subject, if the goal is worth achieving.

You may not believe that it is worth our while prosecuting the war with Islamism. Does that make you an Islamist, an ally of theocracy? Surely not, we have all enjoyed your lengthy memoirs on the development of your atheism.

Grant then the possibility that one can feel that it is necessary to face that we are in a war, and have certain obligations to our own national principles, while simultaneously not agitating for abdication of sovereignty to the superpower that happens to be leading it.

If that's "living a lie" with Empire Loyalists, or whatever petty putdown you have made up in your spare time, so be it...your opinion is just your opinion. And neither your opinion nor mine uncreates Israel, unbombs the Suez, unteaches the fanatics to seek revenge and the glory of Allah (or Jesus), or rebuilds the World Trade Center.

>
>
>The following SPINE press release was sent yesterday to the editors of
>over 1,000 American newspapers...
>
>April 5th, 2006 ( Physics911.net) - The evidence is in, the analyses
>have been made, and conclusions have been drawn by scientists, engineers
>and other experts: the so-called terror attacks of September 11, 2001
>were faked. There is, moreover, independent evidence from multiple and
>credible sources that Al Qaeda is the creation of western intelligence
>agencies.
>
>If you have any questions concerning these assertions, visit
>http://www.physics911.net
>
>The Scientific Panel Investigating Nine-Eleven has formed around this
>website. The Panel consists of over thirty experts in the fields of
>science, engineering, architecture, intelligence, the military,
>medicine, Islamic studies and other disciplines. The members are willing
>to stand up and be counted, even the ones with the highest public
>profiles. You will find them listed on this page:
>http://physics911.net/spine.htm.
>
>Of course, the Physics 911 website is hardly alone in cyberspace.
>There are now literally hundreds of skeptical websites on the internet
>(with only a handful of dissenting sites defending the official story).
>There are other working groups with websites, as well, not to mention
>thousands of people doing their own inquiries into 911, and millions of
>people skeptical of the official story (including 48% of New Yorkers,
>according to a Zogby poll taken in 2005).
>
>We are now living in what has been called the Age of Synthetic Terror.
>In contrast to the corporate media line, "terrorism" is the brainchild
>and product of western intelligence agencies. Its purpose is to foment
>domestic anger at Muslims in order to justify a program of a) invasion
>of sovereign nations, b) seizure of their oil resources, c) mass murder
>designed to look like sectarian violence,
>d) establishing permanent military bases and e) the installation of
>puppet governments in the countries so affected.
>
>It follows that the mass murder of 9/11, blamed on Arab/Muslim patsies,
>was but the opening scene of a drama that would have many acts, with
>hundreds of thousands of murders to follow.
>
>There is one and only one way to bring this program of synthetic terror
>to an end. The knowledge that we have acquired must be made public and
>made public soon. The next massive military operation may be against
>Iran. Such an attack would require a triggering episode in which a
>handful of Muslims, Iranian this time, would be blamed for the bombing
>of a western target, possibly involving a nuclear device, given the
>(pretended) concern over Iran's nuclear program. (Think Iraq. Think
>WMDs.)
>
>How long will it take members of the corporate media to break free with
>this story? Their colleagues may be unaware that the country of
>Venezuela has undertaken an international inquiry into 9/11. They may be
>unaware that Charlie Sheen's allegations are but the tip of an iceberg
>or unaware of the deception in Iraq or that the Osama tapes are faked.
>
>The story is yours.
>
>A. K. Dewdney, PhD
>Coordinator Scientific Panel Investigating Nine-Eleven
>
>MainPage
>http://www.rense.com
>--
> Release Date: 21/04/2006

Well I have sat down and talked with fundamental Islamist and Imams here and in Malaysia. Their goal is to make the world one with Islam. They will do it by a variety of means, some peaceful some not. The peaceful process is such:

Through immigration and conversion, build up a sizable devout Muslim community.
Push the authorities to allow Sharia law to be used to govern the community
Push for state recognition of Islam as one of the main religions.
Suppress any attempts by moderate Muslims to get power
Once the above is completed the country is now considered part of the Islamic world (there is a specific word for it)
Now it is legitimate to use force against anyone that opposes Islam or “insults it”
Once control of government is obtained other religions are suppressed, although Christians and Jews are allowed to practice after paying a tax. The rest are considered infidels and severely persecuted.

Sounds far fetched? Ask Indonesia, Australia and Britain. Also there are 6 million Muslims in the US and is the fastest growing religion there. At the rate it is growing, in 15 years there will be more Muslims in the US than in Malaysia (11 million)

Extremely interesting stuff coming from Nana and, at the end here, Fait. Regrettably, I must be away today, but I am reading all this stuff with great interest.

I have, of course, been aware of these so-called "conspiracy theories" concerning the 9/11 attack, which theories I never rule out, but I can see that I must also give them new credibility. (Conspiracies go on all the time-, and none more adept and effective at it than our much vaunted "Western" ruling elites, of course, simply given the extent of their vast "information control" networks. The treacheries of ruling elites everywhere are limited only by their own inventiveness, and they are certainly a creative lot-, one must concede them that, with vast resources at their disposal.) And of course, they have our very own US Empire Loyalist minions to conciously or naively assist them in the hoodwinking of us all that goes on.

And most of us are not near cynical enough-, that we give them the benefit of the doubt.

When I return to this thread this evening or tomorrow, hopefully there will be much further useful discussions to read.

And it is important to keep bashing these Neocon dupes of theirs. Hopefully knocking some sense into them over time. Though unlikely. 8-D LOL

Whether they know it or not.

And many do not know it, I suspect. They think they are simply defending "democracy", "christianity", "western civilization" or whatever. Or they fall in with the ultimate "conspiracy theory" of our time-, the "clash of civilizaions" which would pit Islam against the Christian West, and into which they would suck us all.

And some are just dummies, of course. They are mere uncritical "believers".

But what really drives it all is transparently much more simple; the continuation of the long history of capitalist countries' imperialist drives and ambitions, currently manifest through the US Empire drive for control over the Middle East for the purpose of the theft of their oil resources, primarily but not exclusively. (And it is the reality of a network of US military bases throughout the world, many of which I have personally seen, that manifests their desire to in fact dominate the world and control all countries.)

And fuq, can you not even see all the obvious signs of their "control" over our own nation, for the purpose of rip, raping and running off with our natural resources? Are you totally blind, brother?

And, as they say, the proof of the pudding is always in the eating. There are no Arabic or Islamist invasion or occupation forces anywhere throughout the entire Western Civilization, for all your kinds claims. There are only such imperialist occupation forces from the West, which has to include those of Zionist Israel, upon the Arab territories of the Middle East, trying to desparately pump their oil out of the ground just as fast as they can. I see no such parallel of so-called "Conquering-Intent Islamist Forces" anywhere throughout the entire Western World. And other than, fundamentally, Arab guerrilla forces, assuming even the real existence of Al Quaida, PERHAPS invading these Western countries in an attempt to stop the rape and pillaging of their own, whatever their "formal" Islamist ideology", I cannot see nor anyone point to a credible "Arabic/Islamist Force" capable of actually carrying out any serious invasion or occupation of any Western country. It just isn't there or on anywhere.

And these claims about the evil intent of Islamist US citizens or Canadians ring hollow, too much like the demonizing of the Japanese-Canadians in WW2, and earlier East Indians and Chinese, and I remember these same right wing-nut harrassments of "Bohunks", Ukranians, the Irish, and other migrant waves of Canadians now merged into a single stream of citizens.

Continued next post...

Continued from previous post...

Yes, Yammer. Know you it or not, I think you are a mere Neocon like the others here. And the concrete evidence is here in the reactionary and xenophobic positions you consistently take, the way you faun over the US Empire, and the manner in which you demonize Arabs/Islamists. (Colin is a tad more skillful at it, but he basically runs with the same Neocon pack as well, in my view.)

When I see a change in that content and fundamental character of yourself, and the objective ass kissing positions you take vis a vis The Empire, which I'm not holding my breath for, I will acknowledge my change of assessment regarding yourself. Because contrary to what you may think, I go around here not looking for enemies, but allies.

I think we have a nation to build ourselves, and a socially progressive society, and for that to occur, there is a need to break down that reactionary sanctifying of Amerika, and justifying of its imperialist behaviours, which acts in its own particular way even in our own country. And along with that we need to create a progressive alliance of Canadian citizens such as will put a social force in place capable of securing the peace, moving us out from the shadow of the US Empire, and launching us in quite a different nation building and development direction.

And in that venture, I would much rather put out my hand to you than quarrel or war with you. Likewise whether you know it or not.

One does not judge another by what he/she thinks of herself/himself, and that goes for me no less than you, but by the sum of your experience with him or her. And in our case here, by the character of the ideas they advocate for and the political positions they take.

Of course, Islam is out to conquer and rule the world. They've been trying it for 600 years, right up to Vienna in 1683, after occupying Hungary from 1526, but so have the Christians with their missions all over the world. Enslaving continents, the Americas for example, with the Bible and the sword, killing millions for their gold and lands. Not to mention a few epidemics thrown in, as the Will of God, for good measure.

The enslavement of Africans was going on for centuries on Biblical grounds, Noah's curse, underwitten by God, declaring them as slaves "properties".

This is how the "Right to own property" was introduced into the American Constitution, legitimizing slavery, where blacks were first recognized as "human beings", by the Catholic Church, I believe in 1808, but not by the Protestants, by some not even to this day.

As long as religious nuts, of any kind, are permitted to rule and control governments, these crime waves will be permitted to go on and on and keep on killing people in the name of God. Bush gets his orders from his God to kill Muslims and the Muslims from Allah to kill Christians and other "infidels". So, what else is new?

The Jews never had any missionary, or conversion programs, but now are making up for them with their ethnic cleansing in Palestine.

The Will of God, of course !

Ed Deak.

http://www.waynemadsenreport.com/

cont'd at site

Coyote sez

I'm not afraid to be called names. I am afraid of sticks and stones, also bombs, guns, and oppression.

I can understand why you would think that, since I am rarely motivated to chime in with an "I agree with you." I tend to post whenever I see something that irritates me for want of logic. That makes me a troll, kinda, except that my arguments are (hopefully) coherent, referenced, and generally unrancourous.

I plead not guilty. I have consistently stated that I think Bush is manifestly not smart, that his regime has a troubling hostility to civil liberties. My support for the Iraq invasion is based on human rights considerations, not because I am advancing the multinational agenda or deep integration or whatever else you tend to ascribe to the neoCon. I'm not "comfortable" supporting Bush.

Well, in what manner am I supposed to "demonize" them, Coyote? If you are objecting to my holding in contempt fundamentalist theocracies which persecute women, gays, religious minorities, journalists, political opponents, and aid workers, why? Don't you?

I agree with that, but that is a wooly truism. Getting to specifics, you say "bring back the troops from Afghanistan" -- no, I don't agree.

Oh me too, I appreciate it. I don't think of this as a personal spat (one of the reasons I like pseudonyms, it hopefully takes some of the pissiness out of these things). Yeah, I don't think we disagree on a lot of things as much as you think.

Canadian troops in Afghanistan. Tell me, Yammer, why you feel this is a good idea. Please outline to me the goals and reasons behind our involvement there. And do NOT trot out the old "You're either with us or agin us" bullcrap. Explain to me how paving the way for oil and gas pipelines through Afghanistan is a benefit to us here in Canada. Explain to me what effect our mission has on the populace there. Explain to me the exponential increase in opium production that has occured since the fall of the Taliban.
Just because BushCorp and Harper refuse to learn from history doesn't mean we as Canadians should not voice our displeasure at our government's toadying and bootlicking new attitude to the US administrations long litany of disasters. Just because some of us feel Bush and Harper's thumbing of their noses at the Kyoto accord is asinine, that warmaking is wasteful and environmentally catastrophic, that it's time for a regime change south of the 49th parallel, that we are ashamed at our prime minister's new "ignore the bodybags" Bushesque policy.. doesn't mean we dislike you. I do take exception to your troll-like tendency to only pipe up and post what you term "logic", when in fact what you do is mouth neoconservative platitudes and rhetoric.

60 Minutes: CIA Official Reveals Bush, Cheney, Rice Were Personally Told Iraq Had No WMD in Fall 2002

transcript available here:
http://thinkprogress.org/60-minutes-42306

Coyote
I guess the role that Islam plays in global politic is more real for me, because as a convertee, I am subject to Sharia law when in a Muslim country. They take it seriously and so do I when I am over there. I also get to see it’s effects through my friends and my wife’s family. My sister in-law is now working as NGO trying to teach hardcore Islamists a more moderate view of Islam to try to prevent them from completely taking over.

Ed
While most religions can be accused of excesses while attempting to convert the world, do you really want the majority of the world’s population being directed by Iman’s who have a moral code based on tribal culture and the writings of a book 1400 years ago? A code that does not allow woman any rights at all.

Colin

Sounds about as palatable as having James Dobson, Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson or George Bush making the rules. His, 'I'm the decider, I'll decide.' has a distinctly excessive air about it too, don't you know.

What percentage of nominal Muslims are there who take the whole thing about as seriously as you appear to - not very, that is? I'd bet the proportion of whackos goes up and down, probably in concert with the west's imperialistic activities in the Middle East.

Tommymoore: As I understand it, after the fall of the Taliban government, Canada went over to Afghanistan on a peacekeeping mission (I have a brother in law in the army). Subsequently the peacekeeping has been scaled back and Canadians have been in the coalition hunting down Islamist troops.

Why do I think military action is the right recourse? Largely because of what Thomas Friedmann has coined the "terrorism bubble" -- i.e. the escalating tendency of radical groups to show their anger (some justified, some not) at the West by burning our embassies, hijacking our airplanes, capturing our journalists and aid workers and cutting their heads off on videotape. Canada is helping dispell that bubble.

Will it cause more problems than it solves? A good question. But I think a violent response was merited by both the scope of the war (it has been going on since 1947 if not earlier) and our irreconcilable ideological differences.

Were Afghanistan and Iraq targeted in part because they were (a) wreckable compared to a nuke-having, equally wicked regime like North Korea and (b) have the oil and gas resources to defray the cost of their presumed salvation? Yes. Definitely adds an odour to the proceedings but it's hard to say that the Taliban didn't have it coming.

Interesting point.

No, not all Muslims are bearded, fulminating, bomb-throwing stereotypes agitating for the caliphate. My Muslim friends exhibit none of these tendencies and, apart from not eating pork, are basically average Canadians. I think that is the future. That personal liberties and secular governance are just good ideas, and therefore certain to prevail in the long run.

The thing is, these normal Muslims don't seem to have any ability to control the crazy ones who are fervent haters with access to large amounts of C4 and guns. Reformers who are talking about the need to merge the cultures, like Irshad Manji or Ibn Warraq, probably can't count the death threats they receive.

I would hope that after the US (and Canada) and us neoconnazis are done rattling sabres, that the constructive talks and bridge building can begin.

The alternatives are: they win (unacceptable), or we win by heinous methods a la how the Punjab State Police under KPS Gill put down the Sikh militancy (only marginally more acceptable).

Any more than you and I have much ability to control the fulminating, clean-shaven, Armageddon-citing free radicals called fundamentalist Christians in our midst. I'm not at all sure the alternatives available are quite as limited as you and Tom Friedman believe. He is, after all, the same fellow who wrote, after 9/11, that nothing good ever happens in the world if the Americans aren't involved.

As for the Israeli aspect of the problem (your obvious 1947 allusion), I'd say little Israel is more than capable of looking after itself these days; its armed forces must be no worse than 5th or 6th on any list of the world’s leaders in that department. Any real settlement in the region is going to, finally, probably have more to do with the actual residents of the area (like the Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland) getting around to finding ways to tolerate each other's presence in some kind of grudging peace.

The West hasn't shown much ability - since Jimmy Carter's time - to bring the two contesting parties to the table.

I fear your solution yammer, and Harper's too it seems, probably creates more problems than it solves.

John Pilger

Well, Friedmann is just blowing his usual bubbles...their isn't a better apologist for the US or Israel around and a sneering racist to boot...all malevolency attributable to the shady Arab bad guys over there of course,...and all benevolency resides in the United States of the Good...benevolent US terrorism, benevolent US war crimes... and the expansion of the bubble of US markets via invasion all done in the name of Amerikan benevolency as well... what else.

I saw him on TV the other night bemoaning the Iraq war but not in any terms of what it had done to the people and country of Iraq but no, he moans... there wouldn't be this mess if only Amerika could have brought more allies on side at the beginning...you know faked it a little better (my words, not his) things could have been soooo different for the US and its clients... Iraqi pain and suffering completely discounted...completely invisible to this man...not even acknowledged...

and that continues to be his suggestion now - that the US must work to bring more countries on board with them...along with more young bodies to help them defend their cause, of course...(enter the ever helpful Mr. Harper).

...that is a pretty fundamentalist position, yammer...you're pretty well calling on the gods of thunder to deliver one hell of a storm.

Nice partial quote, Lynn. I said, the bridge building had to...blah blah you're not listening.

And honestly, it doesn't matter...go ahead and posture about Amerikkka. I've read Chomsky too, it makes no difference what you think or what I think. Enjoy life under Sharia. You might look good in a hijab, I really don't know or care.

Lynn is certainly onto Yammer. Hopefully you folks reading here, but not particularly given or feeling up to writing, are reading this guy too, who isn't a Neocon or racist of course. Noooo. Of course not. He just walks and talks like one.

Purely coincidental.

Myself, I put him clearly in the US Empire Loyalist column. Note, completely disregarding that it only they who have their army cast widely and based abroad, occupying many puppet colonial states, and that it is only they who routinely act to invade many, many countries,
Arab, in Latin America, and wherever they bloody please. Yet, of course, it is the Arabs who have designs upon the whole world.

In classic Neocon style insisting, insisting and insisting-, in the face of all rational argument and the evidence. He is a believer in the US Empire cause, plain and simple.

His own country's interest. To serve and wipe the US Empire's arse, of course.

(I came upon a coyote den in my travels today, brimming and active with seven coyote pups. A fantastic day. Hopefully mom won't have seen me and move them, and I can photograph their development all summer long. Note: That seven in spring typically only results in two who actually make it to their first winter on their own. In case you can't tell I'm thrilled.... I was looking for an owls nest and fair stumbled upon it-, all these fuzz balls with eyes staring out at me from under a log. I'd guess, probably born around the beginning of April, and all looking fat and sassy.)

Coyote's coyotes.

God, That's great! I'm jealous of the experience. Congratulations on the sheer quality of your life, my friend.

Can't ask for a better spring day than the one you had today, Coyote. :-)

yammer, I'm sorry if I left out part of your quote so I've included it at the end of this comment....I was listening... I just don't agree.

No, that is the now as well...your Muslim friends are the evidence.

When you talk crazy Muslims...you have to acknowledge the crazy religious right in the West as well....fervent haters as well....equally hard to control... with convenient access to an enormous military-industrial complex.

If mere sabre-rattling is what is happening in Iraq and Afghanistan, you have a different definition of it than I do...nor do I think it is creating the kind of trust and respect that future bridge-building depends upon...quite the opposite.

Lynn

Your so called 'crazy religious right in the West' are not nearly as dangerous as Muslim Extremists.
They don't cry for the deaths of those that disagree with them. They aren't sending suicide bombers into places of innocence.
If you promote the dark side of Muslim Fundamentalism , you do so at your peril.
I know you will try to equate Western Christians with the conservative cause wherever, in order to confuse the real issue, you won't fool many people.
In fact the leftist, anti-American, pro terrorist cause won't buy you a cup of coffee in the real world.
The mission of these extremists is to destroy Western Civilization and it seems many on this site are happy with that.
Remember that a vast majority of Canadians answer the Census claim to have religion, about 72%, I can be challenged on my assertions.
But, I am happy to have the good old USA looking after us.

Outstanding piece, Fait Lux, at, "Of course, Islam is out to conquer and rule the world."

Which puts that whole "religious" issue into perspective rather well. But which our Neocon enemies here will certainly simply ignore, like it wasn't there or entirely accurate history. Like all "true believers" and real dyed in the wool "ideologues", they only see what they want to see, and selectively "cherry pick" their historical reference points. (Indeed, it is this history you describe, which much lies at the "historical root" of the current Balkan conflict between "Christian" Serbia and "Muslim" Bosnia.)

And it is why our US Empire Loyalists are such clear and obvious washouts as real or credible intellectuals. History unfolds and reveals itself only according to their diktats. It must fit within the frame of the White Man's Burden view of history; the Imperialist West's sterile version of history, stripped of the achievements and complex dynamics of real living history.

And in our time, it is the US Empire who wears the blood stained robes of the White Man's Burden to civilize the savages of the world, such as the Islamist Arabs-, of course. (And hoist their oil.)

Fuq you Yammer and Company. Real history does not unfold to the diktats of your limited intellectual comprehension skill sets. You are but the pathetic supplicants, prostrate before The Holy See of Amerika, kissing its blood ruby ring to demonstrate your slavish fidelity to its imperialist cause.

We really waste out time with you, only to expose you to everyone who observes you here. Because you do have to be exposed before you can be defeated.

It;s amazing and terrifying that extreme leftists woulf revel in the deaths of our western defenders.
I can be relaxed that they are a forever diminishing influence in the real world.
Mangy dog rhetoric doesn't make any sense , of course.
God Bless America
God Bless Canada
Damn mangy dogs.

And as for IAMC, there is precious little that needs to be said. He ties his own rope, and then kicks his chair out from under himself.

As I said before somehwere, we have but to watch him twist in the breeze.

As for "diminishing influence", that seems to belong to the Bushies and their goosestepping US Empire Loyalist camp followers, even amongst the citizens of the Imperial US heartland itself. The coup de grace is being prepared as we speak. :-)

Twist away, Clueless. No one is going to pickup the chair and release you from your pain.

The Puritans of Plymouth Bay were staunch Calvinists and their legacy remains powerful. "American culture, in particular, is thoroughly Calvinist… [A]t the heart of the way Americans think and act, you’ll find this fierce and imposing reformer [Calvin]."[9]

Micheal Fitzgerald: Manifest Destiny: American Imperial Myth, Then & Now

more at: http://www.leftcurve.org/LC29WebPages/ManifestDestiny.html

History shows clearly that whenever Americans want something another nation has--such as land or oil or other resources--we are able to justify taking it." post by bob the cat.

And it is precisely this "pattern of behaviour" of our southern neighbour which makes them so dangerous to us. It is also why, in the analyses I attempted above, nearer the beginning of this thread, around our own "military development policy" that I say we need our own "entirely independant" one. Hopefully, post the US defeat in the Middle East, we will be in an entirely different situation vis a vis our neighbour and its aggressive imperialist propensities. I would not count on it though. They may indeed have greater need of us and a more covetous eye to the hemisphere's resources, including our own-, and for which we will have to be prepared to deal with it with a greater "force" credibility of our own than we currently have. If we value our own independance and "progressive" national uniqueness.

One does not wish or like to think of such things of course, in the hope that the basis for such fears will simply evaporate like smoke from a dead fire. Through history to here however, it is demonstrated that they tend not to.

So, unless we are prepared, as we have much to here in our relationship with the US, to surrender ourselves up to them and let them make of us what they will, we had best think how to strengthen our own independant capacity in all regards, and about the kind of "non-US model" society we may better wish and to pursue.

And with that, taking into account our neighbours "real" rather than self "idealized" history and propensities, how to better arm and defend ourselves to secure it. Just in case.

An interesting link, bob the cat.

Ask the people of the bombed out cities of Iraq that, IAMC...who have lost their children, many of their loved ones, their homes, their historical antiquities....not to mention their arms, legs,... and their sight.

Extremists are dangerous on all sides, the West's no less so...and that is the point...that both Fait Lux and Coyote make eloquently above.

And bob the cat's revealing quote above...and it's astute allusion to American Calvinism defines the real danger of the Project for the New American Century...well underway now and lethal under the reign of that " Calvinist spiritual elite" ...but hidden and secret...operating behind closed doors... and behind the closed minds of the neoconazis as well.

This is the enemy who hides its agenda and pretends from within...enter Mr. Harper once again...much more dangerous to a country than the enemy clearly seen at the gates. Our real and most dangerous traitors are now operating from within:

"A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear". Cicero

coyote: it`s a good `un huh..just discovered it
myself.

lynn:

wow..Cicero is so RIGHT ON!

Coyote

Nice hand of friendship. That lasted, what, a day? Your regard, evidently, is as vacuous as your opprobrium.

Try to raise your prattle above the level of "nyah nyah, Nazi, brownshirts, fuq." It is embarassing and does nothing to elevate the tone and content of this excellent website.

Back to the article: I think most people have concern about the activities of terrorist Islamists. We're only arguing about (a) their motivations and therefore (b) the proper response.

I don't know, maybe fatalism and indifference is the best thing the West can do. Maybe it is right to take no response, and assume all of the moral responsibility for the attacks against us. Perhaps it is better that the jihadhis, unfettered by the self-excoriation of our well-meaning class, will gradually Islamicize us. Maybe we will all be better off under the caliphate. Sure, there will be no "liberty" or "intellectual development" or "productivity" but we can have the harmony of true groupthink, and such eternal rewards as may exist.

Goddamn it, Lynn! That is one powerful piece. And the quote from Cicero cuts to the heart of our problem with our own Neoconazis, such as IAMC & Co. who come here as US Empire Loyalists, feigning their loyalty to our nation.

And pay attention folks, it is this very crew who are the most ardent supporters of the Harpo Conservatives. This is not even the Progressive Conservative crew of old, who were more truly our own, if compromised no less.

This Neo-Conservative crew which appears here are more US Republican style Conservatives-, harkening to the real direction in which their loyalties lie, fascists dressed in Conservative cloth. And they are ready and willing to open the gate to this outside enemy of the nation, standing in ranks there with its army, its front rank dressed up in grey pinstripe Free Trade business suits.

They are. They are the real traitors to the nation and the national interest of Canada, this Neoconazi crew. We let them remain in possession of the key and with their hand upon The Gate to our peril.

Ohhh, I am not quite the fool you would have me be, Yammer. :-) LOL I would "prefer" to extend the hand of friendship, to be sure, but I still know enough not to be naive. Which I would be were I to extend it to you without qualifications.

You are going to have to make a big turn around in your thinking to get my "hand of friendship". As matters stand, I would rather reach my hand under a rock to stroke a poisonous snake.

Chicago may be hit next
From an email just received:

http://www.lonelantern.org/police_state_reports.html
THREE Stage Terror Drill to Take Place in Chicago: May 2-4

Gary Franchi - Chicago, IL 4-20-06 One of our Loyal Lone Lanterns has just informed us that the National Guard will be doing a training assignment in Chicago. This field exercise will be to simulate a chemical attack, whereby the National Guard will coordinate with local police, fire depts, and hospitals. One of the hospitals participating will be Rush.
1) Exercise starts as a response to a pandemic spreading throughout Chicago. It could be anything from a terrorist attack to bird flu. Nobody knows.
2) As the different groups are responding to this pandemic, there is a dirty bomb attack which releases a chemical agent.
3) If all of that is not enough, the dirty bomb collapses a building.
We do not have an exact location where this is happening, the National Guard doesn't even know. It is supposed to simulate a real life situation so, nobody knows until it starts.
It will be May 2-4.
Considering that "drills" were taking place the morning of 9/11 and 7/7 there is always the remote possibility that this is cover for another "inside job". We pray to God that it is not.
Chicago, be alert that Tuesday, May 2nd, Wednesday, May 3rd, and Thursday, May 4th

Well, coyote, that is a superb example of your sense of proportion. It is, actually, a perfect analogy for your excitement to lash out at the dreaded USA than to admit that the Islamists bear any responsibility for their actions.

Enjoy your snake!

The Cicero quote really touches the heart of the matter, doesn't iy?

Interestingly, he wrote from the peak of a high civilization. With culture, technology and imperial entanglements all over the world.

Which was just about to crash, burn and vanish from the face of the Earth, leaving a darkness that would last more than a thousand years.

Which was just about to crash, burn and vanish from the face of the Earth..." Bailey.

All of that, so many elements come together in that qote from Cicero. But these Neocons will proceed blitherly on as if they have heard nor read none of it. There is only their own insistance on what is true and their blithe arrogance. They are Party line carriers el supremo.

Yeah, yeah, it's true...the thing is, brown shirts are really flattering and you can wear them with either black, brown, green, or khaki, and they don't show cat hair.

Look, can we talk about something interesting? The Nintendo Revolution is called the Wii. What kind of a name is Wii? Are they insane? Isn't this an outrage?