Mel Hurtig, Tough Love Patriot
The author of 'The Truth about Canada' on damning stats, deluded pride, foreign control, and more.
Hurtig: 'No longer the people we think we are.'
- The Truth about Canada
- Random House Inc. (2008)
Mel Hurtig might be the angriest man in Canada. He's angry at our "myopic" politicians, he's angry at our "selfish" big business, he's angry at our "continentalist" media -- and if you aren't angry at them, too, then he's probably angry at you. Hurtig has just released The Truth About Canada, which he claims is "one of the most anti-establishment books published in my lifetime" -- no small feat for a man of 75.
But don't call him pessimistic, he'd prefer patriotic. While The Truth About Canada may be the angriest book released this year, Hurtig's aim is didactic. "Canadians are incredibly proud of their country, with justification," he says. "Just look at the space we have, the resources, the people. The main point of my book is to show people that we're losing it."
We met in Hurtig's Vancouver home, where he was relaxing on the eve of an extensive book tour. His lifetime of Canadian pride was written on the wall: honorary degrees from six universities, the Lester B. Pearson Man of the Year Award, and the Order of Canada -- an award he remembers best for the reception, where he watched his four daughters dance with Mounties.
A native of Edmonton, Hurtig operated one of the largest book retailers in the country, then his own publishing house. From 1980 to 1985, he oversaw the creation of The Canadian Encyclopedia -- now a staple of the Canadian classroom. Then in 1991, Hurtig hit the bestseller lists with an indictment of the Mulroney era, titled The Betrayal of Canada. Hurtig's titles since then reveal his increasing apprehension: At Twilight in the Country, The Vanishing Country, Rushing to Armageddon.
The Truth About Canada is the culmination of his fears. With a flair for the dramatic and an eye for the harrowing detail, Hurtig fiercely argues that "we are no longer the country we think we are, and no longer the people we think we are." After years of intensive research, Hurtig's brain is crammed with damning statistics casting a bleak light on such subjects such as health care, immigration, and the status of Canadian women.
Rather than simply comparing Canada to the United States, Hurtig pits Canada against the other 30 nations of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation Development (OECD). Suffice it to say, we don't fare very well in most categories. Hurtig is happy to ruffle a few feathers, but even he admits that this is his most controversial work.
Yet Hurtig thinks his anger will set Canada free. Only once the ugly truth is revealed will effective change commence. Does he fear retaliation for bursting Canadians' self-satisfied bubble? The angriest man shrugs and seems downright cheerful. "I told a friend that if my body is found on Bay Street, he'll know what happened."
As we conversed, here's what else Hurtig had to say...
Mel's appalling fact #1:
"The poorest 94 per cent of Canadians own three per cent of the wealth in Canada."
On the embarrassment of Canadian child poverty:
"In 1989, the House of Commons passed a unanimous resolution, claiming that they would end child poverty by the year 2000. This was considered a major breakthrough. Nineteen years on, and where are we? Child poverty today is exactly the same as when they passed the resolution. So what happened? The GDP has more than doubled since that resolution. That's about $900 billion.
"With child poverty still a problem, you would think our social spending would be at least on par with other European countries, but no. Of the 30 OECD countries, we're 25th in social spending. There are developed countries that have a quarter of the child poverty that we do, and they're still more competitive in business than us. Their taxes are higher, and they're still ahead of us. Where did all of our money go?
"Beginning with the Mulroney government, there's been a huge downgrading in the role government plays in combating poverty. Right now, the level of welfare in Canada is far below the level it was back in 1980. Meanwhile our largest corporations have charted all-time record profits for four consecutive years. Of the 30 OECD countries, we rank 21st in citizen taxes, while we're 27th in corporate taxes. So it's the people who bear the high cost of poverty and taxation. That's no way to run a country."
On the illusion of Canadian peacekeeping:
"Canadians are incredibly proud of their peacekeeping, but the truth is that we're now a war-fighting nation. Our military actions abroad are not peacekeeping efforts, they are aggressive efforts. Canada ranks 33rd among the world's peacekeeping nations. There isn't a single Canadian officer in the UN peacekeeping headquarters in New York. No wonder people ask us, 'What's happened? Where have you gone?' We used to be on the forefront, but the truth is we've changed what we think we're best known for."
On protecting Canada's Arctic:
"If Stephen Harper announced tomorrow that he's really going to build those two armed icebreakers, and he's really going to establish decent bases in the north, I think Canadians would be in favour. Canadians have always looked at their maps, and at the top of the world they see a big mass of pink. We've always felt that's a part of our country. But the Americans say, "We can sail through there any time we want, it's international waters." Now I'm not anti-American, but there's nothing wrong with defending your own territory from people who are aggressive."
Mel's appalling fact #2:
"Aboriginal people constitute about three per cent of the Canadian population, but they make up about 20 per cent of all prison inmates."
On the danger of foreign takeovers:
"Since Brian Mulroney abolished the Foreign Investment Review Agency and replaced it with this Mickey Mouse, incompetent, do-nothing organization called Investment Canada, there have been 10,924 takeovers of Canadian companies. The total value of those takeovers is $847 billion. Now here's a question: what percentage of that money was for takeovers, and what per cent for new business investment? 2.4 per cent was for new business investment, the rest for takeovers. As a result, our levels of productivity have plummeted, and we're now the 13th most competitive country in the world.
"You would think big business would take their all-time record profits and invest in new machinery, especially since the dollar has strengthened, and so the cost of equipment would be significantly lower. But what are they doing? They're sending their money out to tax havens. No other developed country in the world would allow this to happen.
"How is Canada going to be a competitive country if we sell ourselves off like this? I've got grandchildren. I have no intention of letting my grandchildren grow up in a world where they're tenants in their own country."
Mel's appalling fact #3:
"In 2005, over $22.3 billion of foreign-controlled corporate profits left Canada."
On the day of the 'bag man':
"I was a member of the Liberal Party from 1967-1973, and we used to have a guy we called the 'bag man.' He'd go east once or twice a year with a big, black satchel. When he'd come back, I'd ask, 'How much have you got this time?' and he'd say something like, '$650,000.' Then I'd ask, 'How do we know you didn't collect $750,000?' He'd look me square in the eye and say, 'You'll never know.' That was the 'bag man' attitude, back when there were no receipts for donations to political parties. I blame those days for a lot of the problems we have now. Covert funding of political parties has had a profound effect on Canadian policy.
"Thank God we've made that change, at least. That's one of our only hopes: no corporate or trade union donations to political parties."
On the failure of a Canadian education:
"The educational establishment has not done a proper job of teaching young people what this country is all about. We've developed a caring society, a tolerant society, and a compassionate society, but students have never been taught why it's important to know our history and values. As a result, young people don't know why it's important to participate in Canada. It's not that they're afraid to be patriotic -- people love their country instinctively -- but why it's important to participate has never been properly explained to them. This is an unacceptable situation. I really do fault our educators for not teaching Canadian history and Canadian values. But then again, what can they do without the necessary funds? Canada, for public spending on education as a percentage of all government spending, ranks 91st of the world's countries. Ninety-first, for Christ's sake!"
Mel's appalling fact #4:
"For social spending as a percentage of Canada's GDP, Canada ranks 25th of the 30 OECD countries."
On the vanishing Canadian identity:
"Canadian performing arts have more revenue than all of our sports put together. This boggles most people's minds. All you have to do is open up the daily newspaper and see how many pages are devoted to sports, and how many to performing arts. Yet there are more jobs in Canadian cultural industries than in agriculture, mining, and forestry combined. Despite this, we're still not doing a good job of protecting Canada's cultural industry. Would you live next door to the world's most powerful culture-exporting country in the world, and then agree to sell-off major components of your cultural industry? Eighty-nine per cent of Canadians say the CBC helps distinguish Canada from the United States, but we decide to cut the CBC's budget by $400 million. This is no way to maintain the Canadian identity."
Mel's five steps to fix Canada:
"Step 1: Reform the way we elect members of government. This is absolutely the top priority. The system we have now does not reflect the true will of the people, and it exacerbates regional tensions. Many other countries have better results in their elections than us, and all of them have a mixed-member proportional representation system. These countries have a very high proportion of votes that count. Canada's system, on the other hand, has a low amount of votes that count, so people feel powerless.
"Step 2: Increase taxes on large corporations. Right now corporations are not bearing enough taxation, so they have no incentive to do anything meaningful for Canada. Only 3.8 per cent of Canadian industrial revenue is spent on research and development. Let's make them work a bit. I would give them a tax incentive to do meaningful research.
"Step 3: Curtail the foreign takeover of Canadian corporations. I would do this tomorrow if I could. Canada does not need any more foreign ownership or foreign control. The Canadian Council of Chief Executives might say, "Foreign investment is the foundation of the Canadian economy!" but they don't present any evidence, they have no facts. Here's a fact: I once went to a Canadian Gulf Oil refinery, and before they could let us in the gate, they had to phone Chicago to get permission.
"Step 4: Increase social spending. It's absolutely essential to increase spending on education and health care. Thirty-three per cent of university students can't remember the third line of the national anthem, and we rank 54th in the world for number of doctors per 100,000 citizens. One piece of good news is that public-opinion polls, time after time, show that most Canadians think a top priority in this country is the support of social programs. If only our CEOs thought the same way.
"Step 5: Eradicate child poverty. We have to do something meaningful about this. It is unconscionable for us to have the levels of child poverty that we have in this country. There is terrible human misery in Canada, and it is a huge injustice."
![[Tyee]](http://thetyee.cachefly.net/ui/img/ico_fishie.png){kind=small}
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G West
3 years ago
Mel
Where have you been?
All this stuff, and more, have been subjects of discussion, illustration and debate right here at Tyee for years.
You should stop around some time and see what kind of reaction the naysayers deal out when you discuss these kinds of facts.
I invite respectful comments to my posts at Tyee.
G West
rjm
3 years ago
Media Interest
I look forward to the ceaseless globabl media frenzy surrounding Mr. Hurtig's revelations.
should I hold my breath/nose and watch bctv? how long do you think I'll have to wait?
surely CWG will incorporate Mr. Hurtig's points into a package that can be inserted into a daily/weekly/monthly rotation.
G(can) West... as always.
rjm
ME2
3 years ago
GWest
Well, Garth, the proper answer to your question is to ask "Where have YOU been" if you don't recall that Mel spent most of his money setting up the National Party, which flourished only a few months following a very premature attempt in the 1993 Federal election.
In my little Socred town of 500, we learned of the new party only six weeks prior to the election, but managed to sign up 16 members and collect over $1500 in donations in that short time.
The convincer was Mel's book A New and Better Canada, the content of which, my guess is, is much the same as Mel's new book, as described above.
The Party was destroyed by internal wrangling with a major financial sponsor, and externally with loss of control at its first convention to a bunch of crazies, IMO a put-up-job by NDP lefties.
In the process Mel lost the rights to his book, which had been signed over to the Party, and that's the last we've ever heard of it. And also (until now) of a politically prominent Mel Hurtig, who rumour has it, was totally bummed out by it all, and I can't say I blame him.
The point of this post is to note that if his new book is anything like A New And Better Canada, it could well be the foundation for another attempt for forming a new party on the Left, for it will outline what is required to capture the imagination of the Center-Left Canadian voter who comes far closer to constituting a majority vote than most people think.
I say that while remembering the ease with which we recruited people who had never before belonged to a political party, along with NDP drop-outs.
Conservative NDP'ers will no doubt characterise Mel's points as "old bromides", but even so, they are still very much in the public's mind, and moreso as we all watch those chickens coming home to roost.
I agree that we've discussed these issues to death, but if we don't have a Party willing to make them major planks in its platform, what's the point in even discussing them anyway?
G West
3 years ago
ME2
Unless there's a change in the way we elect governments - see Mel's step #1 - the idea of creating a new party will do little more than provide some cathartic relief for the disenchanted, disgruntled and disheartened.
I don't know what the answer is, but Mel doesn't seem to be the guy to organize it...any more than David Suzuki is.
Which doesn't mean that both of them, much of the time, make good (but hardly earth-shattering or new) points.
I think the objective is clear - how we get there is the problem.
There’s an interesting little story about Juneau, Alaska in the New York Times this morning. Sometimes the only thing which actually creates change is a knock-down; (or even a knockout) - maybe that’s what we need right now:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/14/us/14juneau.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin
Jeffrey J.
3 years ago
Pen Mightier than Sword
The pen has always been mightier than the sword. Unfortunately, it is the damage and destruction the rich and powerful do with their swords in the meantime that worries everyone.
Hurtig has always understood the logic behind social justice and democracy. His book will be a wake up call for people who haven't yet realized that Canada's media monopoly no longer reflects the truth about this once great country. Let's hope we can save what's left.
Cynic
3 years ago
I haven't read the book yet
I haven't read the book yet but does Mel include proper use of the Bank of Canada in his analysis? Doesn't sound like it and therefore he blows it. Mel, the way that money is created must be reformed or all other attempts to "fix" Canada will falter. Step #1 is to change the Bank Act and rein in the private banks from loaning too much money into existence. Then use the Bank of Canada to properly fund the programs and services that Canadians want and deserve.
City Person
3 years ago
Falling Skies
Interesting to see Olde Mel back at it again. Mel's been tellin' me the sky is fallin' for quite a while now. And he's made a ton of dosh doing it, but I digress.
Mel is correct that other nations have higher social spending but there are other factors he is not telling you, like systemic unemployment in said countries. Go there and ask around.
Gotta get my umbrella in case the sky falls!
Van Isle
3 years ago
Do you remember last year
Do you remember last year when our dollar soared to new highs and everyone was behaving that happy days are here again. The mass-media just sort of forgot to tell us the reason for our leaping dollar; foreign take overs of Canadian companies, using Canadian dollars which created a shortage of Canadian dollars and that's why it went up. Has any one payed attention to our dollar in relation to the Euro since then? It's gone back down to the level before 'the great leap up'
Van Isle
3 years ago
Hello City Person and where
Hello City Person and where have you been looking? I was in Scandinavia last year and all of those countries are doing really well and a lot better than Canada in my opinion. I'm not saying that they don't have problems but I would say that the average Scandinavian is better off than the average Canadian.
monty
3 years ago
Time to re-read
The Grand Ayatollah the tyee.ca Sept.12/07
then check out www.ceocouncil.ca/en to see what Tom d"Aquino is up to now. Then, we'll see what the neocons have in store. Cheers.
Fiat lux
3 years ago
Foreign investment is a
Foreign investment is a fraud as it brings nothing to a country. It is an irrepayable loan that enslaves the proprietors of certain resources.
When you have resources, you don't need foreign investment, because you can convert them into development capital, for you own benefit.
Then we come to the phoney "free trade agreements", in reality, licences for total exploitation with the free movement of imaginary capital, created from the air by some bank for the takeover of other people's properties.
The most disgusting part is that they give immediate citizens' rights, in the form of "national treatment", to some of the biggest crooks, with miles long lists of fines and convictions, all over the globe, giving them the power to buy political parties and governments to ensure the limitless continuation of their crime waves against the environment and humanity.
Ed Deak.
City Person
3 years ago
Scandanavia
Van Isle, there is a lot I admire about the Scandinavian countries, particularly their extremely tough stance on carbon taxes. However, they only have about 20,000,000 people among them and have been blessed with some incredible natural resources, Norway in particular. They are also ethically homogeneous for all purposes.
A better study would be Germany and France and how they calculate their unemployment rates.
ursus
3 years ago
National Party
I was a member of the National Party and the NDP didn't kill it at least not in Vancouver, there were a lot of Socreds Conservatives NDP and Liberals who were very unhappy with their parties working for the National Party.
Like many I worked hard for the National knocking on doors in my riding after work going to meetings to listen and learn lots of strange stuff was happening, the head office on Kingsway was broken into and a lot of valuable equipment was stolen, contact numbers etc.
The media was backing prestone doing little things like showing on t.v. an image of Mel taken from a newspaper all dark and sinister and prestone with a warmed light shining down on him from above and behind creating a halo like effect, probably a 81b filter.
When I read about the spiderman breaking into that office it brought back memories, wonder if he was a member of the National? No it was not the NDP lefties who destroyed the party from within, more likely a bunch of corrupt right wingers, I remember arguing with some of them they were pretty twisted couldn't for the life of me understand why they were in the National Party, makes sense now, they were there to destroy the party from within.
Van Isle
3 years ago
Comments back to you City
Comments back to you City Person about comparing us to European reagions. Yes I agree that Norway has done wonders with it's oil resource but you got to admit that the riches from it is going back into the country and the wealth is spread around. The oil is owned by Stats Oil which is owned by the Norwegian Government. They sell the oil on the international market not like the oil companies do here. There are a number of complaints that the Norwegians have about the system but the biggest one is that they sell their oil in $U.S. which is so unstable. I can babble on about how other things that they do right but there is one thing that you mention that I disagree on; and that's being a homogeneous people. The Finnish Language isn't even close to the other Scandinavian languages. Finland is a bi-ligual country, Finnish and Swedish; there are Finns who don't speak Swedish and Swedes, on the west coast of Finland who don't speak, Finnish. The Sami people still live a different style than the rest of the population. The Islandic language has transformed so much in a 1000 years it's hardly recognizable as is the same for the people on the Faroe Islands. The people in Finn Mark, in northern Norway, feel left out of the loop with the southerners. Yes I agree with you about France and Germany are going through tough times but Ontario and Quebec are having the same difficulties.
lynn
3 years ago
We stand on guard for thee
Great book review.
The Truth About Canada is the culmination of his fears.
The sad tragedy of those titles, each growing progressively more so, is shattering but Hurtig is right - this is the very alarming state this great country.....this greatly loved country.... and greatly betrayed country has found itself in.
Some people are ahead of their time and Mel Hurtig is one of those people. He saw years ago the way Canada was disappearing before our eyes, becoming unrecognizable and he is quite right that Canada has become the culmination of the fears he expressed then...and that "we are no longer the country we think we are, and no longer the people we think we are".
I am glad that he is angry and that he expects we should be as well. Anger is a good and necessary thing sometimes - necessary, as ursus points out in his comment, because those who would sabotage this country are among us, befriending us to betray us. The selling of Canada down the road did not happen without a well- orchestrated and intentional plan to do so, one based on control of the press, complicity, co-option, secrecy and lies :
Skywalker
3 years ago
Thanks ursus!
I think you describe the situation very well. There were a lot of the NDP who greatly admired Mel and his positions. Reform Preston was getting all the attention as the darling of the media. I may well be that the the NDP will regret not joining forces with Mel.
dorothy
3 years ago
homo-what?
"...blessed with some incredible natural resources, Norway in particular. They are also ethically homogeneous for all purposes."
I trust there is an 'n' missing, so that the postulate is, that the Scandinavian countries are 'ethnically' homogeneous?
The other thing, if that is what is meant, would be patently untrue. I can testify to that as a former Scandinavian.
I am always frustrated, when people say things that start with 'now for instance the Scandinavian countries...' The blessing with natural resources would only be true for Norway and Sweden, certainly not Denmark, which only has 'soil and fish' to its name, and for the rest lives on its wits. Which are not inconsiderable. Rather, I think the success of those countries depended, and depends, on their exposure to the limits for growth on a much more brutal scale than has yet hit North America. Denmark in particular, was rather cut and bruised in the 1800's and had to learn to 'inwards gain what was outwards lost'. Study this part of history, and take a good look at the World Values Survey website, in order to understand what they do that we might wish to emulate. Many of Mel'spoints will be borne out there.
RickW
3 years ago
Scandinavian Countries
The "big thing" about the Scandinavian countries is that, if nothing else, they at least APPEAR to be doing something -- in contrast to Canada, which has reverted to it's antedeluvian image of "hewers of wood and drawers of water".
realisticman
3 years ago
Van Isle
Quite right. We, here in BC, need to seriously consider what both Norway and now Sweden have done and that is to drill for and reap the benefits of off-shore oil.
http://www.npd.no/English/Emner/Ressursforvaltning/Promotering/whynorway_oil_gas_cluster.htm
ursus
3 years ago
Offshore Drilling
So what your are telling us is Norway keeps the money for its citizens unlike Canada who gives it to foreign corporations to profit while our roads and infrastructure are falling apart like in Alberta.
I just came back from fort mac and believe me the roads are falling apart, don't get sick or like me you will spend 7 hours waiting in emerg then leaving when told you will have to wait another 6 or more.
Our politicians are sooo good at taking care of their foreign friends or their own offshore accounts is more like it.
Cheers.
G West
3 years ago
So I take it, Realisticman
You're a fan of Stat Oil too then. Should we start re-purchasing Petro Canada now - or set up a new company of our own? Certainly, we can't even consider permitting private buccaneers to get into the offshore business and we need to be sure all the profits won't just move south of the border or the whole exercise won't turn out any better than the current utter failure has.
The government of Norway holds about 65% of the shares and controls the company, its policies and procedures and the disposition and uses of its funds.
I'm glad you're finally coming around.
Of course, given the fact that we don't really 'need' the offshore, a simple exercise in regaining public control of our current production and turning off the tap to foreigners while building a pipe line to serve central and eastern Canada sounds like a made in Canada solution to me.
Furthermore, under that kind of discipline there would be no need to continue the insane pace of oil sands development either.
I always invite respectful comments to my posts at Tyee.
G West
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
ursus...
I just came back from fort mac and believe me the roads are falling apart
Come on, you're kidding right?
Alberta Infrastructure has been spending more funds on highway infrastructure than any province in Canada over the past few years, even puts Ontario and BC to shame.
Billions of dollars being spent and billions of dollars planned. That's the power of provincial revenues derived from oil/gas royalties.
As for Fort MacMurray, here are the plans for the 6-lane freeway (10 lanes if you include the adjacent new services roads)
http://www.infratrans.gov.ab.ca/INFTRA_Content/docType140/Production/proposedfwyplan.pdf
As for Alberta overall, here is an extensive and detailed list of Alberta highway construction for the period 2008 - 2011.
http://www.infratrans.gov.ab.ca/INFTRA_Content/docType181/production/ProvincialHighways2008-2011.pdf
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
Realisticman...
At least you "get it". Former BC New Democrat premier Dan Miller also "gets it" and supports offshore oil/gas development.
The additional billions derived therefrom in terms of royalties into provincial coffers will certainly assist in higher quality health care, education, infrastructure as well as provide additional funding for social services in terms of the poor.
The east coast is certainly benefitting from offshore oil/gas and it appears that Newfoundland will soon become become a "have" province. Who would have known.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080429/cda_economy_080429/20080429?hub=QPeriod
SharingIsGood
3 years ago
My take on it too, G West
G West:
I couldn't agree more.
He who owns/controls the energy and owns the raw materials and has an educated workforce should have no problem competing on the world stage. As Ed Deak always says, we just need to cut out the middlemen.
I think we need to reinstitute much of the National Policy. Canadians can build their own car companies, we don't need Ford, Chrysler or GM. We don't need Japan. I'll bet we can build a great ammonia/hydrogen infrastructure that converts leftover wind and water power to ammonia. Farmers have been safely using ammonia to fertilize their fields for a couple of generations now. We know how to handle and use the material. Burning it releases water and nitrogen gas. Nitrogen already makes up 72% of our atmosphere.
In BC, we have coal, oil, natural gas, other minerals, hydro-electric power and potential, timbre, farmland and ranchland. We have areas of great tidal power, wind and sun power. We can use our energy resources to see us through building a wind/water/solar/ammonia-based economy. We have abundance, yet our government seems intent on selling it off natural resources, and the hell with added value. As the world is becoming more populous, if we are patient, the resources will always be worth more in due course. And if the rest of the world has to buy those resources with at least some value added, then we will double our profits while being able to save resources for future generations.
http://www.memagazine.org/contents/current/webonly/webex710.html
http://www.energy.iastate.edu/Renewable/ammonia/ammonia.htm
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb5260/is_200508/ai_n20368451
Any CO2 that may be generated during production of ammonia from methane etc. is easily contained. It can also be produced with plane electrolysis of hydrogen, heat and a catalyst.
http://www.ausetute.com.au/haberpro.html
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
Hmmmmmm...
Not even the left-wing federal NDP has such a policy plank in their political platform.
siamdave
3 years ago
more hole and more future ...
Mel does a good job as always, but scary as he is, the rabbit hole is much deeper - he alludes to it in passing by saying education is failing, but do you suppose this is just innocent incompetence, or is there a reason that our kids are being so poorly educated? I would suspect the latter. For a look at another level of the rabbit hole, you could do worse than They're Building a Box - and You're In It - http://www.rudemacedon.ca/dlp/box/box-intro.html - and for a vision of a positive future, try Green Island http://www.rudemacedon.ca/greenisland.html .
Frank
3 years ago
Luke
Maybe ursus didn't drive on the planned one, maybe he drove on the real-world one?
Most of those dates seem to be in the future...
By the way, what's the effect of the tar sands on the environment? Good or bad?
Because apparently former Conservative (Neo_Liberal) premier Lougheed of Alberta "gets it".
Alberta has had oil since just after WW2. Are you telling me that in 60 years none of those problems are fixed but they all will be real soon now?
According to the Conservative ex-premier of Alberta it might be a few more decades before that oil pays for anything.
RickW
3 years ago
Even Gordon Campbell has Admitted.....
....that drilling for oil in a known fault zone is risky. After all, didn't he just comment on the awesome power of Mother Nature, as witnessed by the earthquake in China?
BTW, the Alberta gov't is a doppelganger of the current federal government (or vice versa) -- much talk but little action.
G West
3 years ago
Well.......
As the price of gas moves into the stratosphere it might be kind of nice if some of those profits had continued to flow into the privy purse for some good works to assist all Canadians and not just a few Albertans.
If you don't want to pony up the cash to re-purchase a bag full of Petro-Can shares it's fine with me Luke Skywalker. Let's just pick up majority control in one of the smaller Alberta companies and 'grow' it into some competition for the big boys.
Isn't that the way the folks who 'get it' do it?
Time for a few more blatantly left-wing solutions - and BTW - did you notice the Federal Court of Canada just slapped Imperial Oil for 'flawed' work on its Kearl operation?
Canadian judge rejects Imperial Oil application for permit, halts bid to build oil sands mine
May 14, 2008 - 5:59 p.m.
CALGARY, Alberta (AP) - Imperial Oil Ltd. failed Wednesday to get a judge to reinstate a key water permit to build a $8 billion oil sands mine in Northern Alberta.
Federal Judge Douglas Campbell dismissed Imperial's application to have Canada's Department of Fisheries and Oceans reinstate the permit at the Kearl oil sands mine.
The company has said losing the permit could set the project back by a year.
In his ruling, Campbell ruled that Canada's Department of Fisheries and Oceans was right in yanking the permit, since it was based on a "fundamentally flawed" environmental report.
The permit is central to Imperial's plans to drain a vast stretch of northern Alberta bog land in preparation for its vast, open-pit
mine.
(Source: Canadian Business)
I always welcome respectful comments to my posts at Tyee.
G West
ursus
3 years ago
Alberta roads.
I quit a job in Grand Prairie last March (07) because the side street I was living on had not been plowed once since I got there in Oct, people are losing their lives and loved ones on the Alberta highways because the roads are so poorly maintained it is disgusting. I have driven from ft Mac to Jasper hitting three different storms and no snowplows on the road???WTF!
Read the Calgary and Edmonton papers in the winter and most of the letters to the editor after a snow storm are from people upset that their streets have not been cleared for days, the feds are partly to blame in my opinion. I drive that road too fort mac a lot and yes they are working on it but how many people have died before they finally got off their asses and started doing something. How many more will die before it is completed?
The roads in Northern B.C. are in pretty rough shape now from what friends and family have been telling me, apparently gordo let his mining friends put another 92(?) trucks a day on Hwy 16 from Smithers to Endako to have the ore processed there then it will be hauled to Rupert?
Yup he is really concerned about the environment and peoples lives, trying to dodge logging trucks, container trucks, chip trucks, ore trucks hauling from south of Houston to Stuart and lets not forget all the trucks hauling produce for some companies, Pattisons for example from Calgary to as far as Rupert.
I seriously doubt the taxes the truckers pay will actually go into repairing or rebuilding our roads as I suspect it is all a write off for the companies.
Don't mean to hijack the thread but its the same old crap people read the right wing rhetoric and believe without actually going out and taking a look for themselves. Why is it good for a Country to give their natural resources to a foreign country for pennies on the dollar, makes no sense to me.
When are we going to stop worshipping the dollar over everything else, family friends community are all second to personal greed, kinda scary when you think about it people are getting very rich in real estate and oil but have absolutely no compassion for the less fortunate in society labelling them so they can feel better about their own greed and lack of compassion.
It is going to be interesting to see how they react if they end up in a food line up, it has happened before and could very well happen again! Seeing soccer moms in a food line up would be kinda interesting.
Cheers.
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
Frank...
Maybe ursus didn't drive on the planned one, maybe he drove on the real-world one?
Aside from the planned freeway within Fort MacMurray's limits, there is also the ongoing construction in the twinning of highway 63 from Edmonton to Fort Mac in the ~$1 billion range.
http://www.infratrans.gov.ab.ca/2611.htm
Your are absolutely right. Lougheed certainly "gets it" regarding the out-of-control development of the tar sands, which should be reigned in - too much, too fast.
Due to the royalty regime put in place concerning non-conventional oil extraction, ie. the tar sands.
Alberta has had oil since just after WW2. Are you telling me that in 60 years none of those problems are fixed but they all will be real soon now?
Alberta with no provincial debt (BC's roughly around $28 billion, tax-payer supported that is), is currently in the process of catching up with its infrastructure deficit due to the massive in-migration and growth over the past decade.
Poor planning. BC is also in that same situation.
Back to BC's offshore oil and gas. All the science is sound and North Sea oil is also situate in a seismic zone.
Former BC New Democrat premier Dan Miller supports development of offshore oil and gas.
Development of that resource will provide additional billions into provincial coffers just like Newfoundland is now experiencing.
So are you saying you don't want the provincial government to receive those billions in order that we can improve upon health care, education, infrastructure as well as provide additional funding for social services in terms of the poor?
The NDP government of the 1990's would have loved to have that revenue stream!
ursus
3 years ago
Hwy 63
I drove south from fort mac on friday and yes they are working on the hwy from the south end of town to approximately the long lake turn off but it is a long way from being completed and too many people have died on that road and too many more will unfortunately die before it is finished.
They have taken far too long to do this and as far as the rest of 63 being twinned goes well it will be a long time coming. There were two accidents on the road to Syncrude with fatalities while I was on the 08 Utilities shutdown, in 7 weeks! These are the ones we heard about.
Cheers
realisticman
3 years ago
GWest
Don't be silly. Norway exports oil to the USA.
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move_impcus_a2_nus_ep00_im0_mbbl_m.htm
Furthermore, Ottawa gets the bulk of oil money, it's just stupid for anyone to suggest that all the revenue goes to international corporations.
kootenay
3 years ago
Tar Sands, The Selling of Alberta
I wonder how many people caught the CBC documentary aired on May 13 regarding the Alberta Tar Sands.
They did an excellent job highlighting the Environmental, Social and Financial consequences of this project.
Also a comparison was made between the oil revenues Alberta collects compared to Newfoundland and Norway. Essentially, Alberta has lost control of their resource and not only will the province generate much less revenue than either NFLD or Norway, they also have lost control over the development and ownership of their own resource.
Even an extreme right winger should have more sense than to continue to support the Alberta model of capitalism. When the project is completed, the province will have an environmental catastrophe on their hands that will affect people and the land for generations to come.
Using the Norway model, the entire country could benefit immensely from this project, what a bloody waste.
realisticman
3 years ago
Triple those numbers
...since then oil has, more than, tripled.
ursus
3 years ago
Oil
Imagine how much the combined Governments would collect if the profits were staying in the Country, and not foreign owned foreign controlled!
Cheers.
Frank
3 years ago
Luke
Again, read ursus' post, Alberta has been oil-rich for decades yet they are way behind in their infrastructure. He's driving on the roads they have now, not the ones they will have someday.
Excellent. I'd like to see it stopped completely being as I don't think tar-sands oil is worth what it costs to extract a barrel of it but your wanting to slow down is good enough for now.
Yes. The royalties it required to attract those companies is way too low.
Its had 60 years. All of it Socred-Conservative governance. Poor planning for 60 years is not an oversight, its simply bad management.
Okay, so you want to produce more oil? And you want to do it next to our relatively pristine coast? And you think that somehow it'll make us rich when the example of Alberta shows otherwise?
So do neo-Liberals Mike Harris, Michael Walker, Jock Finlayson and Preston Manning.
Which we will partly spend on infrastructure for the development of that oil and the rest on cleanup and let's not forget advertising telling people to ignore the environmental and infrastructure problems because the oil will pay for them.
Let's see, do I want to dream or do I want to look next door and note that during the 1990's (after 50 years of oil) Alberta's health and education systems were no better than BC's. I think I'll ignore the spin and concentrate on the example. There's a great article on the web about how oil-economies are failures. I'll find it again.
Frank
3 years ago
ursus
By the way, nice to see an old face return!
G West
3 years ago
And we import oil for eastern and central canada
You need to read the post a lot more carefully; when you do, you'll notice this:
Of course, given the fact that we don't really 'need' the offshore, a simple exercise in regaining public control of our current production and turning off the tap to foreigners while building a pipe line to serve central and eastern Canada sounds like a made in Canada solution to me.
Furthermore, under that kind of discipline there would be no need to continue the insane pace of oil sands development either.
And, perhaps you're unaware of this:
http://calsun.canoe.ca/Business/2008/05/06/5482326-sun.html
G West
3 years ago
And, I should have added
We need to begin to do our part to actually reduce dependence upon oil and the internal combustion engine.
We all know perfectly well that we could, very rapidly, move to electrical motive power for all our trains - and get diesel trucks off the roads for long-distance hauling.
Perhaps you're also unaware of the recent report in Science written by Jim Hansen of NASA (and others). The abstract stated: …"if humanity wishes to preserve a planet similar to that on which civilization developed and to which life on earth is adapted, paleoclimate evidence and ongoing climate change suggest that CO2 will need to be reduced from its current 385 ppm to at most 350 ppm."
He cites six irreversible tipping points--massive sea level rise and huge changes in rainfall patterns, the first of them, judging by last summer's insane melt of Arctic ice, may already be behind us.
I invite respectful comments to my posts at Tyee.
G West
SharingIsGood
3 years ago
luke - presupposing
I'm afraid you are presupposing Luke.
There are other revenue streams that this government has squandered and has failed to develop without putting the fragile coniferous coastal rainforest in jeopardy.
The tax give-aways to big business and the obscenely wealthy alone are enough to have made huge improvements for BC citizens an build infrastructure for the future.
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
Frank...
There's a great article on the web about how oil-economies are failures.
Even Norway's described earlier in this thread?
As for Newfoundland's offhore oil (BC's is a combination of both gas and oil according to geothechnical syrveys):
For years Newfoundlanders left their native province, lured by better economic opportunities in Canada's largest province.
No more.
... the surplus for 2007-08 [is] $1.4 billion, more than five times what it projected last year.
The province is using its economic transformation to trim taxes, boost education and health-care spending, while paying down some of its whopping debt.
http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5gzcNWQwP0YD4iRY4fEFNH0ChcFVw
The people in Newfoundland "get it".
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
ooppss.. Spells.. :)
Should be:
"offshore", "geotechnical", and "surveys"
Frank
3 years ago
History versus spin
Does that mean you don't?
ursus
3 years ago
Old face
Thanks Frank been working a lot.
Cheers.
realisticman
3 years ago
GWest
This is like the 3,000 mile energy diet. Let Newfie oil go to the east and western oil stay in the west.
Would your pipeline take the shortest route and go through the US?
ursus
3 years ago
Pipeline
Would make more sense then pumping our crude to a foreign state for them to refine and set the price on their stock market then send it back to us? At a 1.339 here.
G West
3 years ago
No - of course not.
The Americans have a strategic oil reserve - we don't - they look after themselves - we should do the same - and start cutting the ties that bind.
Part of the objective here is to establish East/West links and sever, or at least de-emphasize them. We can't count on the Americans for anything anyway - as softwood and NAFTA have proved time and time again.
If there is any excess capacity start clamping down on oil sands production (it's too environmentally costly anyway) and let Newfoundland ship oil to whomsoever they want - they have the ports (Come-by-Chance), the refineries and the oil already in situ.
I always welcome respectful comments to my posts at Tyee.
G West
ME2
3 years ago
GWest
In the post above, you suggest that we sever our North - South ties and "establish East/West links". And your reasons ?
"We can't count on the Americans for anything anyway - as softwood and NAFTA have proved time and time again."
Hmmmmm... That means, I guess, that you think Eastern interests stood up for us Westerners re Nafta and Softwood ???
Hmmmmm.
RickW
3 years ago
ME2
The East had its own troubles with NAFTA and Softwood. I think Quebec lost more jobs than did BC in forestry, and Ontario lost those 300,000 "manufacturing" jobs (if you want to to call tightening widgets manufacturing)........
G West
3 years ago
ME2
'cause I believe in the nation, the idea, and the promise of Canada.
I think we’ve always had more connections to central and Eastern Canada than we’ve had with the U S of A.
Good point about Quebec jobs RickW...heard you on CBC Almanac the other day - 'right on' btw.
I invite respectful comments to my posts at Tyee.
G West
ursus
3 years ago
East
Eastern Canada is just that, Eastern Canada not a foreign country. I have worked with lots of people from back east and most are very patriotic Canadians unlike a lot of westerners I know.
realisticman
3 years ago
GWest
Well, I'm pleased to hear that - I guess.
In these times where transportation is energy-use critical, don't you think that the fact that Los Angeles is 3,000 kilometers closer to Vancouver than is Montreal, important? Particularly when one takes into account that the important centres of Seattle, Portland, San Francisco and Denver are even closer!
Instead of being jingoistic we should consider certain parts of the USA, our number 1 trading partner, as being important and probably more like us, rather than remote but sentimentally old Canada. I absolutely guarantee you that Quebec businesses feel this way. Ever since Robert Bourassa endorsed Free Trade the visage of Quebec business has been due south - and remains to a degree due east, to Europe.
Yearning for strong east-west Canadian trade is nostalgia at best and, due to the distances, environmentally bad for the planet.
Keep your kilt and fiddles but don't be a dinosaur when it comes to trade.
Frank
3 years ago
realisticman
And yearning to trade with Denver instead of Winnipeg is just the old "the grass is always greener" bit. You're not alone in suffering from this affliction, most of your right-wing allies have it too.
As for your worries about energy, you're on record as not believing in an energy crises or anything else remotely negative.
So keep your favourite Stars N Stripes pillow under your head as you dream of a day when Canada is no more and you can call yourself an American because that day isn't here yet. On the other hand, I believe they would accept you as a political refugee.
Frank
3 years ago
Speaking of dinosaurs
There are those among us who wish to keep the old trade links where we send raw materials south of the border and get to buy them back when all shined up.
Since this is bad economics no matter who is doing it I say we should boldly move from the 19th century into the 20th and manufacture our own finished products.
The dinosaurs on the Right will cry because their American friends will be ticked but I think Canada has supported the US long enough. Time to move forward and sell finished products to the advanced economies instead of meekly giving the Americans whatever they need for nostalgia sake.
Nostalgia as in comments like "and probably more like us" should be put in a box under the stairs with our racist 18th century books and instead we should embrace the idea that we can buy and sell from any and every one.
It might be a scary world sometimes but the Right shouldn't keep us huddling under the US skirts forever. Time to grow up and put Canada's interests ahead of both the USA's and those of us who always act so shy and lovestruck when an American notices them.
RickW
3 years ago
Frank!
And risk offending China...........??!!
Fiat lux
3 years ago
The only people offending
The only people offending China are our corporate mafia and their own leaders, enslaving the whole world, while destroying the ecology with their phoney theories on "cheap goods"
By the time those goods reach here, they're far more expensive in solid physical terms, than any goods produced in any locality, but the real costs are hidden and postponed with fraudulent monetary manipulations.
I have Chinese and other friends who go there either on visits, on on business, some of them several times a year and come back with the most disgusting facts and stories of enslavement and environmental destruction in the name of "cheap goods for the West".
Future generations will pay very high prices and with their lives for the "cheap goods" in our stores.
By all means, build up China's economy for the benefit of the people who live there and not for the benefit of the middlemen mafia screwing both sides.
Ed Deak.
realisticman
3 years ago
Raw
So why don't the powerful unions use some of their millions and put their money where their mouths are. Open up a wood finishing facility. Why don't they Frank? If there's such a gaping hole of opportunity why not furniture and other fine finished wood items from BC factories financed and owned, if you like, by BC unions? Plenty of Fed cash for initiatives like that.
Why not Frank?
Don't tell me they're waiting for some big businessman to build a factory.
Any ideas Frank?
SharingIsGood
3 years ago
realisticman
I think that some union employees have purchased mills etc. in the past when the mills were going to be closed by the owners, but they also got some government financing. I think it is a great idea for workers to own their own business (or at least have shares in it); but the unions are not as rich as what you might believe, and this government has never shown any kindness toward workers - especially unionized workers.
Remember what is said above, the poorest 94% of Canada's population owns but 3% of its wealth. I believe that the assets of the union employees (including their unions) would probably fall in this realm. The money that unions have comes out of the dues from working people - typically 1-3% of the members' wages. It takes a thousands of employees years to save millions.
The nurses' and teachers' unions spend whopping amounts of membership funds on professional development and social justice to improve service delivery and resurces to/for the public. Afew links to some of those sorts of activities can be found here:
http://www.bcnu.org/contracts_services/financial_assistance/education_fund.htm
http://www.bctf.ca/PSAs.aspx
http://www.bctf.ca/SocialJustice.aspx?id=6278
Frank
3 years ago
realisticman
Although tilting at union windmills is something I imagine you've always done and always will do, perhaps they are not as rich and powerful as you think?
Why ask me? Why not go ask the unemployed forestry workers r'man or is talking to people that actually work for a living something you deem beneath you?
Why not get the facts from the horse's mouth instead of the horse's rear end (Neil Reynolds) for once?
Lots. Far more than 20 right-wingers combined. You just won't like them.
Then again I'm used to the Right never having any ideas, something even Chantel Hebert has noticed in a recent Star column :
That means that all 100+ of them have yet to think up an idea individually or collectively.
Although don't think I'm not flattered by the fact that your BC Liberal and federal Conservative heroes have driven the forestry sector into the dumpster and your only "idea" is to ask me what to do.
realisticman
3 years ago
Sharing
Would fall into what category? The richest or the poorest? Only $800 million!
Working Opportunity Fund. This is a labour-sponsored Investment Fund and is BC's largest venture capital fund.
2600 - 1055 West Georgia Street
Vancouver, BC V6E 3R5
G West
3 years ago
Sorry, I don't think so.
The Fund is a long-term investment and does have a hold period.
By investing in the Fund, shareholders have the opportunity to participate in the early equity ownership of some of BC’s fastest growing companies in the province’s information technology, life sciences, and advanced manufacturing sectors. The Fund looks for companies with a strong management team, the potential for a sustainable advantage and a technological innovation for a large and growing market.
British Columbians are eligible for a 15% federal tax credit and a 15% provincial tax credit on the first $5,000 invested in RVCs each year.
Not a word about providing jobs for people in the forest industry either....
Just another effort to reward Gordon's friends and make it easier to hang onto the 97% of Canada's wealth that isn't held by 94% of its people.
Try again my friend you're spinning your wheels. The fact it was started by David Levi to the contrary, it's not the kind of outfit that seems very likely to walk in and bail out the Harmac workers by buying the plant before it has been shipped to China...
I welcome respectful responses to my posts at Tyee.
G West
SharingIsGood
3 years ago
sounds like it could be a great idea, but...
R-man:
Perhaps GrowthWorks has little current free capital that they could invest. From reading GrowthWorks online business plan, they seem to invest capital on 3-5 yr. plans. This could mean that they have about $200,000,000 in capital being accessible in any one year; and their capital is spead accross the entire country -lots of it in Atlantic Canada. Further, BC is one of the few not currently listed as a place where GrowthWorks is a RRSP allowable investment. I don't know how it works for sure, but my take is: why would they place much money in provinces that don't allow their individual investors to have the write-downs?
Also note.
$800,000,000 / (94% X 32,000,000) Canadians = $26.57 cents on average for every person in the bottom 94%. Of course, the individual growthworks investors could have 200 times that amount per person and it would still amount to $5000 per person. Yes, many small investors can do big things, but the small investors often have to keep their money pooled to have any power with boards of directors.
Their power is alot different than a few single Jimmy Pattisons with Billions in cash and equity playing the game.
SharingIsGood
3 years ago
I see GWest...
I see GWest has concurrently done the same sort of figuring that I have.
Great minds working alike again, eh, GWest?
Remember, Sharing is good.
realisticman
3 years ago
GWest
What's the equivalent of the Quebec Federation of Labor Fund, in BC?
Don't the union pension funds in BC have any weight?
Are they actually that naiive?
realisticman
3 years ago
Frank
By the way Frank. Since you mentioned Neil, I guess you saw his piece in yesterday's Globe. Apparently no one is running out of oil.
Another scam! Who would 've thunk it? You didn't get suckered into believing oil was scarce, did you?
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080515.wreynolds0516/BNStory/robColumnsBlogs/
Frank
3 years ago
realisticman
Already read it and argued it somewhere else.
You know that he says the following...
Right? No scarcity whatsoever. Do you believe that? That oil is like right-wing columnists and there's so much of it there's no scarcity whatsoever? Because Neil does.
And in the same paragraph he blames high prices on gov't taxes. A Neil Reynolds column blaming government? I know, I was shocked too.
Did you see this column in the Ottawa Citizen on the same subject?
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=5ebeae43-5f23-44ff-9b70-f8e2d4899437
Its 3 times longer than Neil's column but I wonder if Neil read this paragraph..
Kinda puts a different spin on things eh?
Unlike Neil he seems to suggest there is less oil than there needs to be to fill the demand for it. Neil is probably emailing the author every hour calling him a commie.
ME2
3 years ago
Rman
Anybody who would invest money in one of the Coastal dinosaur pulp mills should have his/her head read.
In 1985 the suppressed Woodbridge-Reed Report called this group of thermo-chemical mills a "Sunset Industry". It has survived until now only because its huge employment base warranted massive subsidisation.
Today pulp logs are being left in the bush because these mills cannot pay even the cost of logging and transportation, let alone offer profit to the logger. Those pulp logs that do make it to the mills do so only because of the cross-subsidisation by sawlogs.
G West
3 years ago
Quebec workers
Are definitely a different breed from the divided emasculated variety we have out here...the effects of years of Bill Bennett government and labour leadership’s collusion have had an effect all right. They could certainly teach BC workers a thing or two.
But the conditions on the ground are very different too.
And the government of Quebec never passed a Bill 29 either... the BC courts have been a very different animal on that score. If you want any labour justice in this province it's necessary to appeal all the way to the Supreme Court.
I welcome respectful comments to my posts at Tyee.
G West
ursus
3 years ago
Pulp mills
The pulp mills in B.C. have never really in my opinion recovered since the federal government helped the Indonesians with a 170 million dollar loan to build one of the largest pulp mills on the planet. It went into production shortly after the Asian flu hit B.C., nice folks eh, real nice.
Maybe they didn't want any Pulp Mills screwing up the air or their views when they retire on the Island...
Commonwealth had the contract for the construction and I seem to recall a company in Montreal with close government ties got the contract for the expediting, go figure eh!
Doesn't matter if its the libs or harper, they are all the same once they get into power. Tell us what ever they think we want to hear then turn around and take care of their corporate sponsors.
I suspect the recent bill C-51 the cons are cramming down our throats is a perfect example.
Cheers.
RickW
3 years ago
R/Man
Then, using that "logic", it would put China completely outta sight on the trade issue, and would in point of fact, argue for the promotion of made-at-home everything.
Where do you draw your particular "line in the sand", R/Man?
realisticman
3 years ago
rickW
We were discussing oil pipelines. An energy pipeline across the Pacific is obviously impractical. That's where I draw the line - practicability.
Containerized shipping of goods, as well as huge ships, has become much more practical as a transport mode than ever before.
Practicality has to be the overriding criterion rather than nationalistic nostalgia that disregards financial and ecological logic.
Oil is a commodity and thereby doesn't have any distinction by origin. Whereas, although there seems to be a substantial market for cheap shoes made in China, there is still a good market for niche companies like John Fluevog to make high quality, yet more expensive, shoes here in Vancouver.
I don't draw any sand lines but I do prefer items of high quality to those of low.
RickW
3 years ago
The same then....
....could be argued about roads, railways, airlines, et al.
Sorry RM, but it don't wash -- unless you are talking about the dissolution of the country, and nations in general.
RickW
3 years ago
In which case:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four#Political_geography
realisticman
3 years ago
RickW
I don't know where you're going with this. GWest said something about a pipeline across the country for western oil to the east, even though it's thousands of kilometers, simply because it's Canada. What's the relevance of your comments?
ursus
3 years ago
Oil
We should build our own refineries in western Canada instead of letting the U.S. refine our oil.
I try to get my fuel from a Co-op or if necessary a Husky, haven't bought fuel at a Shell since I read about them being in the headwaters of the Skeena and will never buy fuel from Shell again.
Cheers.
G West
3 years ago
Damn right
The Americans can and do look after themselves.
We should build pipelines to get Canadian oil to Canadian consumers and, as I also stated, sell any excess beyond our current and strategic needs through East Coast ports in Newfoundland.
The distance between Vancouver and Los Angeles is irrelevant. The jobs and the benefits of building for our own future are not.
Additional refining capacity in the West is also vital - to meet local needs. Expanding the tar sands extraction beyond our own requirements (given current technology and the state of the environment) is insane - even voices from the distant past like Peter Lougheed understand such simple facts.
I invite respectful comments to my posts at Tyee.
G West
Tigana
3 years ago
Thank you, Mr. Hurtig
I don't know where we would be without you.
See you at vivelecanada.ca!