Very fair and balanced!

I'd also add the names Ibn Warraq and Irshad Manji

Well, to the neoconazi comment above, I would only replace references to Islamist culture and substitute the out of control imperialist culture of western imperialism, especially currently manifest as a rampaging US Empire, and a Euo-Amerikan Zionist driven Holocaust that is being brought down upon the people of Occupied Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan.

Otherwise, the first paragraph of his comment above is really quite extremely accurate. :--)

The really ironic twist in all this, of course, is that these fascist neoconazi have themselves evolved from the rabid anti-semites of Nazi Germany into the current ravers they are for the US Empire, that is the real underwriter and initiator of this current new Holocaust, that now has the Arab peoples as its would be New Auschwitz victims. It is why Gaza in Occupied Palestine under this Zionist fascist occupation so much resembles and echoes the horrors of the Warsaw Ghetto.

Regrettably the Jews have followed the same path of the post US Revolution of an earlier time, and as the previously oppressed have become the new extremist oppressors. It is called, a historical irony.

Ah here is another good one, I wonder what the Neobaathist above thinks of primary source documents. Of course he is probably busy preparing anthrax for our drinking water, as Hamas recommends.

http://feralhouse.com/titles/kulchur/extreme_islam.php

Coyote bro
I`ve often wondered if the only way one could deal with horrors such as the holocaust ..the only way to defeat the monsters.. was to in fact become them.

"...the only way to defeat the monsters.. was to in fact become them." wrote Bob The Cat.

There is a statement, in fact, by one of the WW II Zionists which I have read somewhere, now a long time ago, of words to that effect. Indeed, these early Zionist who developed the Jewish Homeland concept that came out of the Holocaust, co-operated in some important regards with the Nazis, and received awards from them, for their efforts. In the end, however, it all came to naught, until the postwar Exodus of the Jews from Europe, with the co-operation again, at a number of European interests and eventually even the British Colonial Administration then of British Occupied Palestine.

How this process of the oppressed becoming a new time's oppressor actually works, I think, is still a not well studied subject, but certainly there are other examples across history.(Even England, who supplied many slaves to Rome and was occupied by them for a very long time, and Saxons and, Normans, became in due course the glob straddling British Empire, which is still not entirely dead of its imperialist ambitions.

It is certainly an observable phenomena, even within societies and between classes. (The capitalist class was itself at one time subject to "the landed aristocracy", and with its own revolutions of the 18th century onward, of course, becomes the new ruling class which works to hold down, manipulate, control, ie effectively oppress, the modern working class.)

It is certainly a cycle which needs to be broken. (Many men who are themselves oppressed, in turn oppress women, is another example that comes to mind, as a kind of pecking order sequence.)

Cool observation, bob the cat. A good day to you comrade. (Even the USSR, Communist become Capitalist Chine.)

I recall the days of the troubles.
Once minute we're at a cafe, the next arms and legs whizz by as the screams and hollers of the half mangled erupt. It seems the terror makes its own rules.
According to some, It would have been entirely "just" and "measured" then for the Brits to simply bombard the suburbs of Dublin, since that's the only thing such "animals" would have understood.
Right?
Stephen Harper is a son of a bitch.

Bob + Coyote + Yammer = Turnspeaking Terrorist Sympathizers

Shame on you

I have a couple of other books that I can recommend.

We Are Iran by Nasrin Alavi (published by Raincoast, http://www.raincoast.com/weareiran )
Nasrin has translated a number of blogs from Farsi to English so that Westerners can read what Iranians say on their blogs about politics, culture and community. It's a very personal look at Iran from the inside--the bloggers talk about conflicts with the law, the condition of women, of repression, culture, religions, politics ...

The other book is Thieves of Baghdad by Matthew Bogdanos. Bogdanos was a Marine Colonel in Iraq during the invasion of Iraq. He's also a classics scholar and lawyer, and was instrumental in organizing a recovery of the lost antiquities looted from Iraq museums. Thieves of Baghdad talks about the 14,000 pieces that were stolen and how Bogdanos' team managed to recover 5,000 of them. The things stolen included the Gold Nimrud, a 1,000-piece collection of gold jewellery and precious stones from 8-9th century BC, the Sacred Vase of Warka, the oldest carved-stone ritual vessel c. 3100 BC, really amazing stuff.

Dear neocon,

Once, just after 9/11, in the company of some very influential mainstream journalists, I said, delicately: "The United States needs to be mindful of the unintended consequences of its foreign policy."

"You're saying it's their fault," declared one. Am I also a terrorist sympathizer? Just checking, because I've always thought the Middle East conflict is an enormously complicated situation that evokes Greek tragedy. If it's just a TV prime-time drama where the players' motivations can be reduced to two-word epithets, I need to know.

Yes, Coyote there is much to be contemplated regarding the oppressed become the oppressors. A little-known secret in the North American black community is that, since slavery, it became routine for black parents to beat the hell out of their kids--in spite of the fact that they, themselves, were progenitors of slaves who, of course, were subject to all the rapes and brutality that accompany the reality of one group of people having complete control over another--and no human or legal rights for the oppressed.

Knowing what I know about human beings, I hate to even contemplate what it was really like to be a slave--a piece of property--the murder of which could only be seen to be a crime in so far as the destruction of property might be prosecuted.

But as if brutality is some kind of Dawkinsian "meme," this disgusting scenario just keeps repeating itself like some kind of Mendolbrot fractal.

One might make a case that "unintended" might be too "delicate" in the present circumstances, Charles.

Malapropism alert: progeny, not progenitors, I should have said.

The book "Crusades through Arab Eyes" (Amin Maalouf) gives an in depth analysis of the divisions among the Arab peoples, back as far as the second onslaught of the Crusaders against the Saracens (1100-1200 A.D.). Notably, the Franj (Franks, Gauls) used the tactic of "divide and rule". Cities of Tyre, Sidon, to name two, became the base for the early Western influence, by throwing sops to the local inhabitants. Speaking today to a Lebanese-Canadian, I am appalled at the derogatory terms he uses to describe how he feels about the plight of the Palestinian cause. Certainly not all Lebanese-Canadians harbour these feelings, as the recent outpouring of Jewish-Arab peace activists in Canada evince, but a few of them feel as though they are God's chosen children. It is my hope that the recent atrocity inflicted by Israel will bring all Arab people to their senses (that may well be occurring, as we speak). I won't belabour the point that Israel has consistently rejected any of the U.N. resolutions on proposals for a peaceful solution, even rejecting some of the dubious (Dubya) American "road map to peace" recommendations. This is either a land grab or an opening of the Western front against Islam, with U.S.-U.K. sanction.

Informal Poll:

I would really like to know who approves of the actions of the Israeli government?
The actions of Hezbollah and Hamas are criminal, no doubt, but a 'show of hands' please , those who are for the actions of the Israeli government.

Dave

"will bring all Arab people to their senses" Now what can you mean by that? They already hate Isreal.

Israel has certainly rejected many UN resolutions, but not 1559, the pertinent resolution to this recent outbreak of conflict. In fact they conformed to it completely, unlike Hezbollah.

Also you don't seem to mention that Isreal offered the Palestinians a 97% solution at Osla that was turned down by Arafat. So the obstructionism runs both ways.

There is a continued tendency here, on the part of Israel's supporters and sympathizers, to refuxt to acknowledge that the so-called State of Israel is the result of a largely European population simply mass moving into Palestine, conducting mass terror against that native Palestinian population, uprooting them, driving them out and stealing their lands. There has as a consequence been a state of "war of resistance" against this invasion ever since. These Zionists have no right to expect a "recognition of their legitimacy" from either the Palestinians or their Arab neighbours. They are the actual terrorists.

To refuse to concede to Palestinians even that much, is a blind and arrogant committment to support this crime of the Zionists, and those, as the US Empire et al, who support it.

To quote Ben Gurion, one of the founding terrorist leaders of the Zionists himself, at least even acknowledged the reality of what the Jews were doing to the Palestinians. That should be done no less by these blind faith modern day supporters of the Occupiers of Palesine.

"If I were an Artab leader", Ben Gurion said, "I would never make terms with Israel. That id natural. We have taken their county..We come from Israel, but 2000 years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Aschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing. We have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that?"

Indeed, why?

Goddamn small print, which leads to a plethora of typos. My apologies.

July 17, 1975
The Irish Republican Army (IRA) killed four British soldiers in a remote controlled bomb attack near Forkhill, County Armagh.

So let me ask this to those of you justifying Israels activities ...

Would July 18th, 1975 have been a good time for Britain to launch airstrikes against Dublin or Belfast? Or would a ground offensive have been more appropriate? How many dead Irish civilians would satisy your hunger for "teaching these people a lesson"?

"Completely different scenario"?
Well, no - not really...

From the U.K's Independent newspaper, October 2005:
----
Eight British soldiers killed during ambushes in Iraq were the victims of a highly sophisticated bomb first used by the IRA, The Independent on Sunday can reveal.
The soldiers, who were targeted by insurgents as they travelled through the country, died after being attacked with bombs triggered by infra- red beams. The bombs were developed by the IRA using technology passed on by the security services in a botched "sting" operation more than a decade ago.
This contradicts the British government's claims that Iran's Revolutionary Guard is helping Shia insurgents to make the devices. The Independent on Sunday can also reveal that the bombs and the firing devices used to kill the soldiers, as well as two private security
guards, were initially created by the UK security services as part of a counter-terrorism strategy at the height of the troubles in the early
1990s.
According to security sources, the technology for the bombs used in the attacks, which were developed using technology from photographic flash units, was employed by the IRA some 15 years ago after Irish terrorists were given advice by British agents.
"We are seeing technology in Iraq today that it took the IRA 20 years to develop," said a military intelligence officer with experience in
Northern Ireland.
He revealed that one trigger used in a recent Iraqi bombing was a three-way device, combining a command wire, a radio signal and an infra-red beam - a technique perfected by the IRA.
Britain claims that the bomb-making expertise now being used in southern Iraq was passed on by Iran's Revolutionary Guard through
Hizbollah, the revolutionary Islamist group it sponsors in Lebanon.
----

Oh.
Who'd have thunk it?

I am much enjoying reading your "Irish experience" stuff here, godsChild. Very interesting.

We tend to forget that absolutely none of this is new. What's painful is that our ability to relate to the "old country" blinds us to the fact that these very same events have been a VERY RECENT part of our - the "rational", "civilized" Wests past - Catholics killing Protestants, Protestants killing Catholics etc etc etc...
Behind it all (JUST LIKE LEBANON) lay a group (IRA/Hezbollah) that the state (Lebanon/Ireland) that must amends for - all while pretending that they dont exist, so as to satisy those members of the populace with whom their sympathies lie.
Same story.
Different what? Colour? "Race"? Language?

I didn't hear anyone suggesting England ought to go in and "nuke" Belfast , Cork, or Dublin back when the IRA was doing "the terror".
Why not?
Because they would have been denigrated for being a murderous, insane, war mongering pig - that's why.
Wow - how times have changed.

Come on out now you Israeli apologists - explain why you weren't calling for the extermination of those "barbaric" Irishmen only a few decades or so ago.
Give your twisted "logic" another spin for our pleasure.

Can anybody possibly imagine the Prime Minister of Canada brushing off the MURDER of 8 Canadians as "a measured response", or defending Englands right to "defend itself" in circumstances outlined above?
What level of insanity must take hold for such "justification"?
Steven Harper is a son of a bitch.

godschild

The history of the IRA is a non sequitur to this thread.

One wonders what Steve Harpers response would be if some of his family got bombed to death because some coutry like Isreal had the abilility to do just that. As a bit player in the world this guy is trying to make us look like one of the big boys.Next thinbg we know he will be asking Busie for some nucleur weapons. we had them before under Dief.

We have a shortage of troops and no matter waht the present governemtn has to say, recruiting isn't doing that well. So do we go te US way and hire mercenaries? Do we have some of them now.?
Two more soliders go the chop today in their rebuilding of Afghanistan. one was a reservist as was the last one who died. Reservists used to join to march now and again but are now included in front line positions. when they get huirt its out the door as quickly as possible.

I was in Beuruit a number of years ago just after it had been bombed. What a mess and now we are at it again. To what purpose?

Don't know where to put this so I'll put it here...

More Canadian soldiers were killed today (07/22) in Afghanistan but the CBC news report did not give the casualty toll. Is there a website similar to the Iraq Body Count (iraqbodycount.net/) Afghanistan?

It must be about 20 Canadian soldiers that have died in Afghanistan by now. How many more caualties will there be before Haprer withdraws the troops?

The US Department of Defense planners use to have, according to Gwynn Dyer, a "Mogadishu Limit" for the number of casualties Americans would accept before turning against a military action. That number was 20, the number of Americans who died in Somali in the Black Hawk down incident. 9/11 changed that number, of course.

However, I saw a poll in the Globe and Mail today that about 60% of Canadians are against the Canadian government keeping troops in Afghanistan, so it looks like Canadians still have a limit of less than 20.

I too find godschilds insights and Irish experience interesting and useful to this thread.

Nice try Gray.
Actually it was pretty weak.
Being dismissive means you can't rub a coherent rebuttal together.

Explain why the similarities aren't relevant here.
Explain how England would have been better served by bombing Belfast or Dublin.

Stated again - Hezbollah (like the IRA) operates within a State (Lebanon/Ireland) with the tacit approval of the state due to major portions of its population sympathizing with the organization.
Both the IRA (bombings in Britain) and Hezbollah (bombings in Israel) used foreign operations. Both found backers from distant places (U.S. citizens financially backing the IRA, Iran supporting Hezbollah) And if you read real carefully you'll even note that tactically, they've shared a few friends too.
What part of these striking similarities don't you get?
Is the picture a little too white and too recent for you to be comfortable with?

If you support Israels current rampage into Lebanon I cant see how you couldn't justify the extermination if Dubliners back in the day.

Can we add you to such "thinkers"?
A simple yes or no will do.

Stephen Harper is a son of a bitch.

Months ago, on another thread I asked the question, "Why is it necessary for Israel, a tiny country, with 7 million people (one third the size of Mexico City, for instance) find it necessary to have the third or so, greatest military power on earth, including nuclear arms?"

This is in keeping with my patent pending, "ask the right question" theory: that most problems can be understood if one can find the one question that defines the greatest number of nuances...or something like that.

Answer: because the existence of Israel is not organic, but artificial. (I know...what's organic?)

Godschild got a fairly decent analogy going there, alright.

Another good question: What does the population shift in the city of Jaffa (between 1886 and l952) tell us about the emergence of the modern state of Israel?

An eye for an eye...........

What we are all fighting over is, whose eye was plucked first........?

BTW, whatever happened to "The Troubles"? Is it still sitting there, biding it's time......................?

Who brought this to pass?

Who has brought the flaming imperial anger?

Who has brought the army with drums and with kettle-drums?
Barbarous kings.

A gracious spring turned to blood-ravenous autumn.

Li Po (701-62)

for GodsChild

I took one look at this world and said goodbye.

I knew in a flash all that it had to offer.

If you count my days, I vanished when I was young.

But I was old if you add the things I suffered.

Andreas Gryphius (1616-64)

Gray: You are in error concerning Israel conforming to UN laws on this one.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2006/07/23/un-beirut.html

The question that needs to be asked, just to get the ball rolling, is who is prosecutable for such war crimes? When will the world opinion and ACTION shift enough to rebel against such crimes against humanity during instead of after the fact? Southern Lebanon is being bulldozed, block by block as we speak. Anyone who reads this story will see it for what it is. Lebanese casualties 10 : 1 over Israels, A history of two prior Israeli occupations, the last one lasting for 20 years and ending in 2000... Israel isn't occupying Lebanon this time round. They are levelling it, creating a visible barrier of rubble for 15 to 20 km's at the Lebanese/Israeli borders. This strategy will be justified for the range of rockets Hezbollah has... pure idiocy. What is truly happening is clear violations of UN laws concerning war crimes and there is no hiding Israels rudderless course of immorality and violence now. Israel's actions are fast becoming an eyesore to the entire world, revealling as well just how ugly U.S. foriegn policy truly is, never mind Israels.

And godsChild:
Your IRA/Hezbollah analogy of what both organizations had in common and how two very different nations dealt with it in such radically different ways, is genius. Its arguements like this one in war crime courts that bring war criminals to justice, be they ruthless dicators, or elected ministers in democratic governments (as is the case with Israel). You've discovered an excellent portrayal of truth pertaining to the choices Israel had, but didn't take, in favor of destruction and control of its weaker neighbors through military force. Thanks for sharing that one with us.

Moving words, bob the cat.

asher, the death count for Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan now stands at nineteen...but as you say that information is not easy to find.

Some very nice Li Po, Bob the Cat. But in the present conflict who would be the "Barbarous Kings?"

And who threatens to become death, "destroyer of worlds" (Bhagavad Gita) as famously said by Robert Oppenheimer at Los Alamos after witnessing the first nuclear fission device go off in the desert?

Truman...here is one take on who the "Barbarous Kings" might be..not that I agree with all of it but some interesting ideas presented here:
http://beirut.indymedia.org/ar/2006/07/4650.shtml

Barbarous Kings are, I imagine, anyone who covets thier neighbours ....everything.....and is in some kind of position to do something about it.

The quesion has been asked. How many Canadians have been killed in the so called rebuildingf of Aphganistan. Easy way to find out. Email Steve Harper with a copy to the interim Liberal leader , the leader of the Bloc and the leader of the NDP. somebody in the bunch wil tell you pretty quickly.
The Seattle TV sation KCTS, now seen on chanel 19, shows a picture and the name of those being killed in both iraq and Aphganistan, for George and Haliberton,. Nothing is said as the pictures roll by. So many are little kids , around 19 or 20. Now and again even a officer shows up on the list.

Man, typing in a print form of about 1 makes it pretty hard not to make errors, for which I am sorry

Godschild

I'll deal with your fallacies in reverse order.

Your opinion ( and mine) of Stephen Harper as far as this thread goes is irrelevant. Also it is an ad hominem.

You want to add me to some group of "thinkers"? Well I'm not sure what you mean by this but my best guess is that you want to label me so you can emply another form of ad hominem attack. However I concede this is only speculation. My arguments about other issues are essentially irelevant to this thread.

Finally your analogy. It fails on two counts. The IRA wasn't calling for the destruction of England and they weren't launching rocket attacks on England from Irish soil with the permission and/ or aid of the Irish Army. If they had you can be sure there would have been a far more robust response from the UK. For what it is worth I doubt that they would have aerialy bombed Dublin as well. Still that is all conjecture.

The current issue of whether Isreal should be employing force against Hezbollah and the nature of that force can be adequately addressed with the actual facts of that issue.

I know this may sound like psychobabble but there is definite research that supports the idea that people who are oppressed do indeed, in many cases, become the oppressors. They identify with the powers that held them in chains for so long and NEED to become them in order for them to prevent those things from ever happening to them again.

It's not a hard argument to make but it's actually backed by science.

And it's also true that after the oppressed identify with the aggressor several targets are chosen by the new aggressors, hence the African American slaves beating their children even though they are simply innocent bystanders.

It's just a way for the new aggressor to feel powerful and to practice wielding that power on nearby things, like his/her own children.

A point was brought up earlier about the Oslo Agreement. It was not the PLO that reneged on the agreement, but in fact Ehud Barak. During his tenure, more illegal settlements were constructed than at any other time. Oslo never dealt with the Universal Right of Return, nor did it properly aknowledge the annexation of East Jerusalem.

As for the parallels between the IRA and Hizbollah, the purpose of such a comparison is to, um, compare. A comparison is a useful tool to examine siilarites and differences in order to better understand the present.

The IRA did attack England. Wether they used rockets or bombs is irrelevant. The UK dealt with the IRA on a criminal level, not a cultural one. Nobody began questioning the Catholic Religion as fundamentalist and full of hatred. It was a political concern over territory that has never been resolved. But by isolating the IRA as exremists, and by not including the entire population of Ireland, the British succesfully (arguablly) managed a ceasefire.

Of course, there are many differences. The occupation of Ulster dates back hundreds of years, before the UN existed. In order to prevent the same thing from happeining we created a set of international laws called the Geneva Conventions, Laws that are currently ignored by Israel. Also, the Civil Rights of Catholics in Ulster were questionable, but they are non existent in Palestine. In fact, it is approaching a humanitarian disaster.

To be honest, I think the timing of the holocaust where a full one-half of Europe's jewish population was decimated has contributed to the fierceness of Israel's protection of its population and its homeland. It affects Jews terribly to kill Arabs -- especially children. There is a famous Golda Meir quote: "We can forgive you for killing our sons. But we will never forgive you for making us kill yours."

Do the oppressed become oppressors? I wish that were not true, but in cases when self-defense is such a sensitive part of the Jewish psyche, it may be a post-traumatic stress reaction. It's certainly not inspired by some of the outrageous things said here on this site and on so many left-wing sites. These days I'm ashamed that so many leftwingers have lost all sense of proportion and objectivity.

Israel is not a colonial power. It does not seek to exploit Arabs for financial gain like Britain, France, South Africa (Afrikaners) did in their heyday as occupiers. Israel seeks to maintain a Jewish homeland because of the horrendous acts of anti-semitism experienced by Jews for 2,000 years since they were expelled from Israel by the Roman occupation.

Have they made mistakes? Yes, many, including the settlements. But, if you think the Palestinians, Iran, Syria, Jordan, Egypt and don't have blood on their hands, then your dogma is overtaking your critical reasoning.

The best thing that non-parties to this conflict can do is try to get both sides to find a long-lasting peaceful solution to the problem. Unless you've walked in the shoes of people on both sides of the green line, you just don't know.

quandra, writes, "It affects Jews terribly to kill Arabs -- especially children. There is a famous Golda Meir quote: "We can forgive you for killing our sons. But we will never forgive you for making us kill yours."

I encourage you to go to and read the responses to Levi's opinion piece about an immediate cease fire on Haaretz.com. Also read articles and comments on Jerusalem post online.

It is not true that it affects all Jews terribly to kill Arabs. In fact perhaps not even most. Many hate Arabs, have called them 'cockroaches' and do not feel at all sympathetic to innocent loss of life. This is also true on the Arab 'side'.

I think your opinion about this is idealized and perhaps because it does bother you and people you know.

I do agree with you that in many psyches the trauma of the holocaust and the resulting PTSD has created a heightened fight response. I read somewhere - unfortunately I can not recall where - an author who is Jewish who makes a link between the religion which traditionally sees itself as persecuted and celebrates as a reminders those persecutions in its high holidays and the aggressive stance we are seeing.

I think ultimately this is hurting Israel. I also believe that no side can claim a moral authority and 'rightness' if even one innocent life is lost.

As much as I admired Golda Meir, I think this comment about '...making us kill your sons.' repugnant. It may be she was being genuine. I'm afraid with the rise of neo-conservatist fascism I have become very jaded.

Yes, parents are a good example of when abused people mindlessly perpetuate that abuse of those more vulnerable than they. Perhaps it is more unconscious than mindless for it is in perpetuation the abuse they are able to 'identify with their aggressor rather than feel the feelings they had to deny when they were abused. Perhaps some people's psyches are too fragile to withstand those overwhelming feelings. How else can we explain those people who do not abuse more vulnerable people when they themselves experienced the same thing. Perhaps they were not as psychically fragile and had mroe inner resources. Perhaps it is character.

I think it is vital to stand for what is right and just. No innocent life is justified on either side of any conflict. It is murder.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/741435.html

Here's one link. The comments are quite revealing. The article itself makes an interesting point about the carnage not being shown to the Israeli people. Just like here the reactionaries are attempting to keep the consequences of their actions away from us. If we follow the money we see the arms dealers are making money. And, probably this is what this era in history is really about. Corruption and organized crime really.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?apage=2&cid=1153291973626&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

And, here is a well know American neo-con who recently wrote an article in which he stated some civilian not as bad as others.

The comments are interesting especially the first one.

Laughable Gray, completely laughable.
Rocket attacks versus suicide bombers? Rocket attacks versus road side bombs? So a rocket attack is not the same as a road side bomb then? Killing British citizens (and soldiers) on British soil... oh no, that's not anything like killing Jews (or IDF members) in Israel is it? Next up you'll parse us a little argument on why a dead Arab does not quite measure up to a dead Brit. Give it a go for us will ya?
Give your head a shake.
Take your conscience out for spin.
Go scrub your ethics. You're stinking the place up.

You strike me as exactly the type of imbecile that prefers to see the world for its differences instead of its similarities. A smug, spineless hypocrite with a half full intellect and broken moral compass.
I pity you.

And while you, my dear little waffler, might "feel" that this is ad hominem:
Stephen Harper is a son of a bitch.
I call it a "measured response" to an ongoing issue.

How's that grab you Mr Twobits?

godschild

All the invective and ad hominems. Bring some facts or sources. I rest my case.

redrivergirl

Interesting links.

====
I hope it ends soon and Hezbollah is neutralized as a military entity. In the medium and long term this the solution that will result in the fewest deaths.

I've read reports that Isreal would be open to a NATO peacekeeping force in South Lebanon. This might be the best way forward.

It was "measured" ....considering what they have the capabilities to do.

Good quote from "Cross Country Check-up" on CBC this aft:

If the Arabs give up their guns there will be no war.

If the Israelies give up their guns there will be no Israel.

And, if they both give up their guns there will be peace.

Not that I necessarily buy the premise.

Gray writes, "I've read reports that Isreal would be open to a NATO peacekeeping force in South Lebanon. This might be the best way forward."

It appears this was planned a year ago.

Gray ...
I gave you facts.
• The IRA (like Hezobollah) had the support of a large part of the population. "Sympathizers" included politicians and members of the military.
• The IRA (like Hezbollah) carried out attacks on foreign troops and civilians in both Ireland and Britain.
• Both receive a large portion of their finances through foreigners (Iran Hezbollah - USA IRA)
• As was explained in a post earlier, they also share similiar "terrorist" tactics and technologies. Conveniently placed into their hands by British forces.

All those are facts Gray.
As far as your ignorance about the IRA not wanting to do away with England - I suggest you grab a schoolbook old boy and take a gander at what was happening between the IRA and the Nazis back in WWII. You are neither right nor wrong on this - just ignorant.
And the completely laughable suggestion that *some* members of the Irish military weren't sympathetic to the IRA reveals a level of naivete on your part that ought to make you blush.
So there's your stuff right back.
I brought analogies , facts and some insight (or so I and apparently some others here thought), you tried to start and argument - and all you got was a lousy reputation as a sloppy thinker. (As brain also noted). Ouch.
Beside which - if we're scoring this at home I still have 4 similarities to your 2 disimilarities.
BOOYAH! PWNED.

You're plainly on the outside looking in here anyway Gray. Enough folks have noted that indeed, the simiilarities are striking and considerable. They are, to at least a few others here, quite pertinent to this issue.
Too bad you and your "opinions" aren't.

So I'll take this victory over your bland hominiminumness and humbly suggest next time come in with your eyes *and* your mind open and maybe, just maybe, you'll learn something from someone here.

When pigs fly.

Stephen Harper is a son of a bitch.

redrivergirl

Do you mean that Isreal has been planning for a year or Hezbollah? Do you have a link?

Thanks

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/07/21/MNG2QK396D1.DTL&hw=kalman&sn=001&sc=1000

And, here is another one that is interesting.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/max-blumenthal/there-is-a-limit_b_25620.html

The brain

My point was pretty explicit, Isreal has conformed to UN Security Resolution 1559, which is the pertinent resolution in regards to the current conflict. Hezbollah and Lebanon have not. wiki or google UN 1559 to see what I mean. Aisde from the Shebaa Farms there is no border dispute/ disputed land between Isreal and Lebanon and the Securty Council believes that Shebaa farms is an issue between Syria and Isreal in any event.

I was not, nor am I, suggesting that Isreal has conformed to all UN security resolutions.

I am aware of the allegations in your link and my comments do not contradict them in any way. While this would not excuse the Isrealis in any event, please note that Hezbollah is being accused of war crimes by the same agencies. Something you did not mention in your post.

I have made my arguments that Isreal has the right to defend itself but it is too early, for me at least, to a make definitive statements about the conduct of that defense. I hope that Isreal conducts itself in accordance with the laws of war and attempts to spare civilian life as much as possible. I also recognize that Hezbollah has consciously put military facilities among civilians.

Gray - your hopes are irrelevant to this thread.

redrivergirl

Thanks for the links

I don't find the existence of a military plan to invade South Lebabnon all that ominous. It would have been surprising if there was no plan. Especially given the state of relations between Hezbollah and Isreal. Armies plan all the time.

A political decision to invade a year ago would be surprising.

@QUADRA:

Have they made mistakes? Yes, many, including the settlements. But, if you think the Palestinians, Iran, Syria, Jordan, Egypt and don't have blood on their hands, then your dogma is overtaking your critical reasoning.

The best thing that non-parties to this conflict can do is try to get both sides to find a long-lasting peaceful solution to the problem. Unless you've walked in the shoes of people on both sides of the green line, you just don't know.

-If it is not colonial then how do you expalin the enourmous wall that expropriates land from Palestinians? How do you explain the theft of water? Is that not economic? How do you explain the strict control held over all ports? Is it a coincidence that Palestinian ghettoes have been called Bandustans, after the colonial villages imposed upon South Africans by the COLONIAL occupation?

-Jews lived in Israel amongst the Bedouins, and Arabs during your 2000 years. They repelled the crusades together with the arabs. It is the Ashkenasi that have sought vengeance for European Pogroms and persecution.

-are you equating Palestinians, Iran, Syria, Jordan, Egypt? Do you realize that you are grouping many diverse peoples together? Egypt recieves the second largest amount of USAID after Israel. Why? Because the dictator Mubarrak keeps thee people oppressed. They are paid off. Same with Jordan, they recieve massive amounts of aid also. Iran is a natural enemy of Egypt and other Sunni nations including Saudi Arabia, who are drunk on the power of oil and Royalty (Kuwait, UAE etc). Syria are a secular military baathist regime. So if you think all these countries are currently conspiring against Israel you are misled.

-How can any of these countries negotiate with the USA? They are adamantly in favour of Israel and this is no secret. Take a look at the number of Security Council vetoes the US has used to protect Israel. Palestine is not a state. It cannot negotiate as one.It has no voice. It can only speak the languae of the oppressor. The language of violence.

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=6898

Interestinng comment from Joschka Fischer

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/joschka_fischer/2006/07/this_war_offers_a_chance_for_l.html

Add four dead UN observers to those qualifying Israels recklessness as "defending itself".
What class, colour or age of human being does it take to turn your "defense" into a murderous rampage?

perhaps in response to Louise Arbours comments?

The attack on the UN position was egregious or at the very least, manifestly incompetent. Either way someody in the Isreali chain of command needs to be held accountable.

Interesting review article for this book:

Seeing Islam as a culture rooted in war
By Carlin Romano
Inquirer Book Critic
Islamic Imperialism: A History
By Efraim Karsh

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/entertainment/books/15100183.htm

Read it, night, but jeepers creepers, eh, have you read the history of Christendom, (think Crusades, Richard the third and Saladin), or The Roman Empire, Or The American Empire, or in fact almost the history of any culture or religion that's survived until the present. They're all fairly blood-drenched. Hey, what about Leopold 2 in The Congo?

How about the Kymer Rouge or the Nazis, or just about any little village in Western Europe a thousands years ago that was in danger of being pillaged by mauraders from the hills.

Hey, I've got one for you: The Ghengis Khan. How about Alexander the Great, Almost all the Caesars, for instance. They say Attila the Hun could get into a very scary mood.

Even the local West Coast Indians used to go on raiding parties down to what is now Califormia to get slaves from so far away so they'd feel like they were in another world by the time they got dragged back, and wouldn't be able to escape.

And what about those 30 million slaves that were kidnapped from Africa for 300 years. That wasn't very nice, was it.

Did you eve hear about what the Turks did to the Armenians? What the Jews did to the Palestinians. What the Germans did to the Jews?

How about the British who damn near subjugated the whole planet.

Why are you singling out the Arabs?

Just kidding. I already know.

In truth, and I'm not kidding, my take on history is that the Arabs were among the least warlike, compared to just about everybody else.

"Islamic Imperialism, eh, Night. There was very little of it.

Truman,

Fascistic Islamic fundamentalism is imperialistic. Who died and made them God -- to dictate that all the people of the Middle East had to be Muslim?

Seanorr,

The "expropriation of Palestinian land" by the Israelis was originally meant to be a buffer. Israel had been repeatedly shelled via Jordan (West Bank) and Northern Israel over a 20 year period. And while I completely disagree with the settlements, let's face it for the better part of the last 40 years, there has been no one to negotiate with on the Palestinian side to swap the land for. Water, big deal, they could negotiate access with a neighbour -- hardly the reason to occupy lands for. Having been to the West Bank and Gaza, I can tell you there's not a lot worth keeping -- negligible resources -- only land. Palestine/Israell wasn't much either until the Jews got there and built a beautiful country on a mostly barren piece of land.

Israel swapped land for peace with Egypt and Jordan and guess what? The big bad Zionist boogeyman you all talk about has had a very peaceful relationship with with those two countries for many many years.

That is my hope for the Palestinians -- once they get away from the destructive dream that they're all going back to Israel and kick the Jews out. Hopefully, they will elect leaders who will bring them to a peaceful two-state solution instead of the hopelessness they now experience. Then they could use the 4 billion US dollars looted by palestinian officials like Arafat to rebuild their country. Please get real. For some Palestinian leaders, there is a lot to be gained by keeping the war alive. Read on.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20041108-125409-5690r.htm