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In Search of an Aboriginal Future
Author Marie Wadden on suicides, solutions, Harper's apology and more.
Carrying baby brother on the Esketemc reserve.
Gallery: In Search of an Aboriginal Future »
The face of Canada changed for Marie Wadden when she first visited the Innu community of Sheshatshiu, Labrador in 1970. "I thought I knew everything there was," she says, "but I was blown away by the language, the diversity of the culture. I wondered how I'd never heard of them. It was my first realization that there was another, unknown reality in this country."
Since then, Wadden has felt closely linked to the struggle of Canada's Aboriginal people -- a struggle she believes they are on the verge of losing.
In the introduction to her stunning new book, Where the Pavement Ends, Wadden writes, "The situation could not be more urgent...I have come to believe that the very survival of the first peoples of this country is at risk." Aboriginal communities have suffered profound psychological trauma due to the abuses of residential schooling, resulting in generations haunted by violence, alcohol addiction and suicide.
Yet a healing process has risen from the grassroots in many Aboriginal communities. In 2006, having received the Atkinson Fellowship in Public Policy, Wadden travelled across Canada, seeking community leaders with viable solutions to these urgent issues. The journey brought her to Inuit communities in the Arctic to First Nations and Metis communities from coast to coast. "Few of the communities I visited were marked on road maps," she writes. "Often, I knew I'd come to the reserve because I had reached the end of the pavement."
(You can see photographs from her travels in this story's photo gallery.)
Through 21 short essays, Where the Pavement Ends paints a panoramic portrait of the Aboriginal situation in Canada. A network producer for CBC Radio in St. John's, and winner of the Edna Staebler Award for Creative Non-Fiction, Wadden writes with the eye of an investigative journalist and the control of a novelist. Her prose is calm and informed, making Where the Pavement Ends an ideal entry-point for those interested in learning about Aboriginal issues for the first time.
Where the Pavement Ends concludes with a 12-step action plan, aimed to shape future government policy. In an effort to get these recommendations heard, Douglas & McIntyre, the publisher, has mailed complimentary copies to Aboriginal affairs bureaus across Canada.
With the advent of the Residential Schools Truth and Reconciliation Commission, and Prime Minister Harper's formal apology on June 1, Canada has a tremendous opportunity to stimulate the healing process. "I truly believe that this is the make-or-break point for so many communities, families, people," says Wadden. "If there's going to be healing, now is the time. There's some momentum, and Canadians have got to support it."
Here are some of the comments and stories Wadden shared during our conversation.
On the failure of the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs:
"Non-Aboriginal citizens need to understand how both the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs and the Indian Act work, or rather, don't work. Most Canadians can't understand why something isn't being done to help Aboriginals. They're constantly told how much money is spent on Aboriginal communities -- it's up to something like $8 billion a year. Then we come to blame Aboriginal people for the persistence of the problems. We need to examine the big bureaucracy. With all the money that's being spent, where's the economic development? Where's the community development? All the money goes into the bureaucracy.
"Many decisions are made in Ottawa about native lands, but all those decisions are made without consultation with Aboriginals. This is very disrespectful, and it's morally and emotionally debilitating. We need to show some faith. Aboriginals want to work out and operate under their own plan. They don't want to be told by Ottawa that they can apply for funding. They want to tell Ottawa what their needs are, and be given long-term funding, not just funding for one year. We don't need top-down bureaucracy, we need to let them tell us what their vision is."
On the horrors of youth suicide:
"The youth suicide rate in Aboriginal communities is just appalling. No one is really keeping track of the numbers, but my experience over just a few days raised my antenna to the problem.
"I went to a First Nations reserve called Wanipigow ('Hollow Water') on the eastern edge of Lake Winnipeg. This community had done some pretty amazing things for social healing. They had lowered alcohol consumption considerably, so much so that the local bar owner told me that he was going to try to sell his business and move away.
"In Hollow Water there are a lot of foster children from neighbouring reserves. I met one young man who was living at Hollow Water because he could not go home. He had found the body of his sister's boyfriend, who had killed himself there, and he was having nightmares. I drove this young man to the store, and as we went along, he pointed to a house and said, 'A 15-year-old girl is under suicide watch there.' Then another house, 'Someone committed suicide there two weeks ago.' I stopped to take pictures of some young men, and one of them had rope burn marks around his neck.
"Later I went to visit Marcel Hardisty, who is a local leader there. He was fixing his car, it was a beautiful day, and I told him about the encounters I'd had. Marcel just welled up, and I could feel the sorrow and grief. He said, 'My wife and I are raising a boy now. Both of his parents committed suicide.' I shared this moment with this man, and I could just feel the sorrow that pervades the community.
"A few days later I drove to Kenora, and I'd chosen that area because I wanted to focus on the problem of suicide. I was going out to a reserve that day, but a message left at my hotel said we'd have to cancel, because there was a suicide the day before. I then opened my e-mail, and there was a message from a reserve in New Brunswick that read, 'Another suicide here today.'
"How typical is this? I wondered. Just three days, and this is what I see. What happens when I'm not there to see? You cannot meet a First Nations person who has not had a relative or friend die of suicide. There is a federal suicide strategy, but nothing has been done. Time is ticking by."
On what non-Aboriginals can do to help:
"The first and most important thing we can do is have conversations with Aboriginals. Respectfully listen to what Aboriginals have to say. We've done such a lot of talking at them, but we've done such a poor job of listening. I've found that once we start to listen, once we have meaningful relationships with their communities, everything becomes so much clearer. I'd like to see large turnouts at these Truth and Reconciliation hearings by people who are willing to hear how past policy has done terrible damage. Raising your awareness goes a really long way. I'd also like to see people stop being afraid of going to reserves. So much mutual suspicion exists. The more we understand and listen, the more we build relationships, Aboriginal social healing will be made a government priority."
On the need to share British Columbia's wealth:
"The prosperity and wealth in British Columbia just blows me away, all those yachts in Vancouver harbour that never seem to move. It's going to be very hard for British Columbia to stall any longer. The smallest reserves in Canada were granted to natives in B.C., so now all around them this great prosperity has grown up. Yet still we cling to this pretence, that Aboriginals have to prove their land claim. So much has been written about them, from Jacques Cartier on up. How can we dispute that these people ought to occupy their land? And yet, for years, young native leaders have been striving to prove their land claims. This is not a problem non-Aboriginals have to face. For example, I found a ranch in British Columbia near the Alkali Lake reserve that miners had been given by "right of occupation" in the 19th century. Our arrogance is just stupefying! And here these people are considered squatters on their own land.
"We have to better share the wealth of this country with the people who were here before, the people whose land we stole, whose languages we tried to destroy, whose children we took, whose rituals we outlawed. That's where all the trauma and social chaos comes from."
On B.C.'s treatment of an Aboriginal hero:
"I stayed with the Chelsea family at Alkali Lake, about six hours from Vancouver. Phyllis Chelsea has the Order of British Columbia. Among Aboriginals in North America, these people are saints. They're held in such high esteem. Even in Sheshatshiu, on the other side of the country, a young man told me to bring back sage and sweetgrass and autographs from them. So I knew I was going to meet some very important, very influential healers. I couldn't believe the state of the house. I couldn't believe that Phyllis had been diagnosed with osteoporosis, but had no money to buy calcium products. I couldn't believe they had to scrounge around to find $60 to get their son's lights put back on. I just couldn't believe it.
"Yet what proud, dignified people. Thanks to them, and others, Alkali Lake has successfully lowered its alcohol rate, but it remains impoverished. As Andy Chelsea told me, living on the reserve is like being back in residential school, except the principal is Indian and Northern Affairs Canada, and the priests and nuns are the band council."
On Gordon Campbell's goal to raise Aboriginals to the provincial standard by 2016:
"I think it's realistic, because he didn't say he'll do it by 2010. It's still a long way off. A lot of hardship will be endured by people before that time. But I like the way Campbell is going about it, it's non-confrontational. It's maybe too slow for many people's tastes, but I think there's a lot of dignity being restored, a lot of healing going on. There's still a long way to go, but Campbell is showing an example that is having an influence on other provinces. When he came to Newfoundland, for example, he got Premier Danny Williams to sign the Kelowna Accord, and that is not a premier who is hugely knowledgeable when it comes to First Nations. Campbell is encouraging the premiers to do something, to share the wealth of this country."
On the dismantling of the Kelowna Accord:
"The Kelowna Accord was a true act of reconciliation. It was all the provinces and territories and ministers saying, 'We will make a concerted effort to improve your lives, and we're going to do it together.' The Accord was a document of hope, everywhere I travelled in Canada. When it was ruined, how personally everyone took it was just tragic.
"I think the Conservatives dismantled it because it was a Liberal initiative, and it flew in the face of what many Conservatives think about Aboriginal issues, which is that too much money is being spent already. I have a big fear that this government's policy is not to support reserves, but to get Aboriginals into urban communities. I think that would be their preferred way, because a lot of Conservatives find the cost of providing services to reserves untenable.
"But we have these treaty obligations, and unresolved land claims, and a history of land and resource theft that needs to be resolved. Healing has to take place on the reserves, in the communities. A new initiative like the Kelowna Accord is urgently needed. I would like to see it arise out of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. When I travelled through Hope, British Columbia, I thought it was the perfect place for this new accord. I'd like to see Mr. Harper write a new initiative, make it a document that no other government can overturn, bring Aboriginal leaders to Hope, B.C., and create the Hope Accord."
On Stephen Harper's upcoming apology:
"Its significance will depend on how it's made, how it's said. My experience with Aboriginal people is that they're very perceptive about sincerity. Mr. Harper's sincerity will depend on whether he's ever had any significant experience in an Aboriginal community, whether he's ever been in a position of listening with an open heart to what is being said by Aboriginals. Only that will give him what he needs to make a sincere apology. If it's just words on a paper that someone has written for him, then it's not going to have the same impact as if it really came from the heart."
Related Tyee stories:
- Turning the Corner on Suicide
Aboriginal youth share life saving insights. - Residential School Survivors: Justice Frustrated (series)
- Reconciling with First Nations
How the 'New Relationship' is faring in the Fraser Valley.
![[Tyee]](http://thetyee.cachefly.net/ui/img/ico_fishie.png){kind=small}
- BC snuffs out AirCare test program
- AFN national chief Shawn Atleo to launch re-election bid
- Citizens group releases video to fight undead Bill C-30
- Conservative MP says he might vote against budget, then 'clarifies' his position
- Genetically modified plants won't take root with councillors in Richmond, BC
- Hundreds at Vancouver rally to support Quebec students
- Could Fort Mac become an eco-tourist hotspot?
- Rick Hansen's Man in Motion anniversary tour concludes in Vancouver
- The Gem of Canadian Science that Harper Killed
- Who Mowed Down the Premier?
- Canada's Economy, Deconstructed (by a 12 year-old)
- Death in Remand: a Tyee Inquiry
- Now Is the Time to Talk up Big Ideas
- Sexism Tinges Criticism of Teachers' Job Action
- Bill C-38: the Environmental Destruction Act
- Death In Remand: 'A Gut Feeling'
- Bias in BC's Pesticide Decision? Follow the Bouncing Verbs
- The Ethics of Addiction Studies
- The Gem of Canadian Science that Harper Killed
- Sexism Tinges Criticism of Teachers' Job Action
- Now Is the Time to Talk up Big Ideas
- The Ethics of Addiction Studies
- Bill C-38: the Environmental Destruction Act
- Alberta Fills Pipes with Corrosive Denial
- Bias in BC's Pesticide Decision? Follow the Bouncing Verbs
- How Our Immune Systems Exaggerate Fear
- BC biotech company seeks approval for GM apple
- What's Behind BC's Doors?
- The Ethics of Addiction Studies
- What's Behind BC's Doors?
- The Gem of Canadian Science that Harper Killed
- Sexism Tinges Criticism of Teachers' Job Action
- Should You Run from that Medical Test?
- 'The Dictator'
- Death in Remand: Stacked Deck
- 'Moonrise Kingdom'
- From Financial Advisor to Occupier
- Seven Goals to Build the Conservative 'Dream'
- Double lung recipient dances on Ellen show
- ISS astronauts grab DragonX space capsule by the tail with Canada Arm
- Metro Vancouver gas prices peak at record levels
- Ottawa posts $9-billion deficit in March despite pledge to avoid spending spree
- BC phases out AirCare to focus on fighting bigger vehicle emissions
- Tsunami senors to be dropped into deep sea off of Vancouver Island
- Student groups file court challenge against Quebec protest law
- ...while on the streets, pirates and ninjas put aside mutual animosity to join student protests
62
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realisticman
4 years ago
Small town girl
Go to the airfield too Marie. You can see lots of big aeroplanes there that cost lots of money too.
Money doesn't buy happiness Marie; if that's what you're thinking. Some people that own boats drink too much too.
If the summation of your research odyssey is to take more money from one group of people and give it to another group - after all the billions already and continually transferred proves to be of little avail - I'm afraid you've come up quite a bit short.
Go see Clarence Louie.
G West
4 years ago
Realisticman
If the 8 - 9 billion dollars a year in the Indian Affairs budget were actually going to the people who need it...you might have a point.
It doesn't and you don't - the accident of Clarence Louie's 'location' notwithstanding.
Excellent article. Thank you Marie Wadden. Thank you Tyee.
I welcome respectful comments to my posts at Tyee.
G West
G West
4 years ago
Please also recall, Realisticman
You're the same person who, on this website a couple of years ago, wrote that someone who called attention to the deplorable situation on Indian Reservations was, in visiting them, indulging in something you called 'cruising'.
Perhaps YOU have spent too much time on yachts and airplanes.
On this subject someone with such attitudes, from your background, has zero credibility.
I welcome respectful comments to my posts at Tyee.
G West.
ubiquitous
4 years ago
rman...
...completely misses the point with this comment:
Money doesn't buy happiness Marie; if that's what you're thinking. Some people that own boats drink too much too.
I don't think it's happiness that they wish to buy - just some of the amenities that folk such as yourself take for granted.
realisticman
4 years ago
Oh Jee Ouest
It was you that said you occasionally drive through a reserve to see just how badly "we" have treated them. Don't be shy.
More money into the archaic and somewhat feudal reservation system is not going to help. We all know that.
Economic opportunity is not going to sufficiently manifest itself in remote locations.
Talk to Calvin Helin.
Canis Latrans
4 years ago
Real alternative to the "reserve system".
Actually, I don't entirely disagree with realisticman, on some aspects. First, though money resources always do in fact help some, and can help with initial startup of some underpinning infrastructure, the current relationship system between Natives and the rest of Immigrant Canada is indeed much broken.
And it depends much on what one, firstly Natives, define as "economic opportunity, and less on realisticman's or anyone else's definition.
But what broke it all was first the alienation of Natives from the land, which was their economic base, and its control being usurped by the new Immigrant Society. Indeed "the land" is the basis of all economies, including our own, though we may "think" we have grown beyond it.
So, in addition to other "needs" which I will leave Natives themselves to articulate to us, it's clear to me that Immigrant Canada has to recognize the continued existence of "a", or a "number" of Native Nations, just like Quebec in the case of the Quebecois, and accede back to them, these Native Nations, such a land base from their original territories as has the real possibility of sustaining them. And the form of that sustenance will likely arise from partly traditional economic practises as well as other resource and even secondary developments-, once they have control of their land base and resources.
The critical element is, however, that what Natives need as any folkjs do, is the land for an economic base for themselves. And we owe them at least that much back-, in my view, subject to negotiations in the light of the new historical realities, of course.
But Natives first need their own "national territories" if they are to maintain their communities as they clearly wish, even after all the futile attempts to forcibly "absorb" them, and prosper into the future.
That much seems clear to me, even a Whiteman. :-)
Canis Latrans
4 years ago
Oh...
And money, certainly in this capitalist world, does buy happiness. A lot more than being poor does.
Why do we think it is so goddamn important to all these supporters of capitalist society.
Stop the bullshite, that changes as it suits you wingnuts.
G West
4 years ago
Not the way I recall it Realisticman, As for Calvin Helin
We've covered that too...in the context of the situation of third world conditions in which most First Nations bring up their families I think he's interesting but largely irrelevant...
I've just ticked the offensive button on you again by the way.
Please consult commenting rules - the name is G West.
I welcome respectful comments to my posts at Tyee.
G West
Yammer
4 years ago
Aboriginal future or future for aboriginals?
Discussions of the aboriginal future always tend to talk about what can be done to improve life on the reserve, as though the reserve offers the only possible model for aboriginal happiness.
The assumption seems to be that most aboriginal people in 2008 actually want to be physically and culturally separate from the mainstream of Canadian life simply because they happen to be born into it.
If you made the same assumption about Canadians who happen to be born black, white, or left-handed, you'd be unceasingly mocked, at best.
Reserves and treaties are facts of law and therefore have to be dealt with. But surely they are just tools to help people live. The living is more important than the tool. What actually matters is physical, mental, and economic health.
It's fine to cite the self-help success of Clarence Louis, but they've got great location. Some reserves are never going to make it, just as non-aboriginal towns sometimes go bust. People are fleeing Kitimat in droves. It's terrible for Kitimat's future, but it doesn't mean that Kitimat ought to be preserved as a museum.
And even if it was, what young person wants to live in a town with no jobs? It sucks to just exist.
Accordingly, I am thinking that a good place to start would be to have a sort of Commonwealth of Reserves, where status in one allows EU-like residence in another. That would at least allow aboriginal people to keep their status while they pursue gainful employment.
southdeltawalker
4 years ago
"Gathering of Mother Earth Protectors"
Today on in Toronto is the "Gathering of Mother Earth protectors"-
"Starting this Monday, hundreds (hopefully thousands!) will descend on Queen’s Park in Toronto to stand up for the rights of Indigenous peoples to govern and take care of our own land."
I think the presence and determination of so many First Nations people at the rally to save the Upper Pitt was what stopped the Government plans for a "Run of The River" private power project.
Unlike out here in South Delta where the Tsawwassen Band has been bought off by Campbell and signed the First Urban Treaty.
This Treaty which among other things allows for the for Port development and the taking off agricultural land to be turned into rail storage yards.
One has to wonder what the outcome would be if we had the Tsawwassen Band was on "Mother Earth's" side when it comes to fighting the Port Developmnet, The South Fraser Perimeter Road, the removal of the lands from the ALR etc.?
Here is a link to show the enviromental devastation of the proposed Port development:
http://www.againstportexpansion.org/
Link for info on "Gathering"
http://www.shamelessmag.com/blog/2008/05/gathering-of-mother-earth-protectors-starts-this-/
Anyways, found this essay informative and the photos moving.
realisticman
4 years ago
Well Said.
Canis Latrans, I appreciate your objectivity and, like Yammer, you both have made some very good and important points.
snert
4 years ago
Good point, Yammer
But only for starters. There may be some benefit to allowing for the purchase of properties that adjoin existing or future reserves once treaty territories have been established. Title may still remain with the original owner in some form but the tax base gets transferred to the band. Wealthier bands may be able to facilitate this non traditional move as long as politics don't get in the way.
Unfortunately the last time I checked FNs were no different than the rest of use so the chances of politics rearing it's ugly head are pretty good.
Docfly
4 years ago
In search of an Aboriginal future
Thanks Tyee & Marie Wadden for the interesting photo essay.
The comment;
"As Andy Chelsea told me, living on the reserve is like being back in residential school, except the principal is Indian and Northern Affairs Canada, and the priests and nuns are the band council."
rings true. To what degree are band councils part of continuing problems? One hears of some successes alongside the 'failures'
ME2
4 years ago
DINA bureaucracy to blame ?
Much is made of the supposed "fact" that nost of the monies directed toward FNs are actually eaten up by the DINA bureaucracy, as GWest notes :
"If the 8 - 9 billion dollars a year in the Indian Affairs budget were actually going to the people who need it...you might have a point."
There are two issues relevant to this charge. One is that several years ago, both Federal and Provincial governments began programs to give their Gov't jobs to FNs themselves, and now the monies dedicated for Health care right through to municipal services are administered by FNs who pay themselves to do so out of these monies.
My guess is that there are now double the bureaucrats per capita in FN communities than there are in "white" communities.
The other issue is that nowhere have I seen the slightest shred of evidence that TODAY Garth's claim is valid, and I challenge him to produce some.
G West
4 years ago
Pour votre plaisir monsieur,
You can start with this:
http://www.afn.ca/cmslib/general/M-Ex.pdf
Then move on to this:
http://www.afn.ca/article.asp?id=3416
G West
4 years ago
And don't forget tp notice that:
The First Nations Plan for Creating Opportunity offers a feasible, affordable, and holistic approach tackling all root causes of poverty, and grounded in a greater role and responsibility for First Nations governments.
Specific targets of the First Nations Plan include:
• Remove budget caps of 2-3% on services to First Nations communities and create fiscal arrangements based on real costs.
• Close the gap in the number of First Nations children who live in poverty compared to other Canadians.
• Advance the Political Accord on the recognition and implementation of First Nations governments as the foundation for a new legislative and policy framework.
• Eliminate the backlog in unresolved specific claims of First Nations governments.
• Implement a new First Nations Economic Advantage plan based on Nation Building, Infrastructure, Human Resources and Labour Force Development and Resource Revenue Sharing.
• Eliminate the number of First Nations communities under consistent boil water advisories.
• Eliminate overcrowding and the prevalence of related infectious diseases (TB, shigellosis) in First Nations communities.
realisticman
4 years ago
Fundemantally Flawed
The entire concept of ameliorating the dire conditions of Canada's aboriginal population needs a quantum readjustment. Any group selected specifically because of their, even collected, racial origins and then consigned or relegated to live in remote communities run by so-called 'leaders', is a recipe for disaster. And dolling out cash for the groups to those leaders to dispense as they deem fit compounds the problems and invites misuse of those funds. Doesn't matter if it were groups of assorted Africans or peoples from the Caucasus.
Even the most sympathetic 'whites' that have worked with and for remote native communities, usually shake their heads and roll their eyes when confronting the dilemma, the solutions and the prognosis.
Financial support for individuals and individual native families that wish to live in remote traditional locales, may be in order but wholesale attempts at sustaining entire communities that are administered in feudal ways is obviously a complete and utter disaster.
We must tell the elders and the young that if they wish to remain on distant reserves, that economic opportunity in this modern world will be severely limited at the very best.
The exact opposite of what, to date, has been practiced is probably what needs to be done and that is to encourage the young to go away to school in the cities of Canada and return to their reserves, maybe one day, the same as all immigrants and migrants do - just to visit and reminisce.
Here's a sad tale:
http://www.nationalpost.com/story.html?id=542007
G West
4 years ago
Jonathan Kay????
You must be kidding - unless you're talking about 'the' Jonathan Kay who is a public fool and performance artist.
The Jonathan Kay who writes in the National Post must still be wiping egg off his face after his column from last September 17 about the 'really really good news about the world's poor'. Now where have I heard those same lies before….?
Like so many other trumpeters of the glory of market forces and globalization as a force for to pick people out of poverty he's just so 'yesterday's' news. The people whose prospects are improved by market forces and globalization are the same ones who designed the program to enrich themselves…at that they have been significant successes.
I think it's time you cancelled your subscription to the Aspers' papers - especially the National Post.
The sad tale is that folks like Jonathan actually are given a place to spout their hatred of anyone who doesn't buy their particular brand of neo-con kleptocracy. Drop your culture – it’s worthless anyway!
Although, all things being equal, they’re not so sanguine about the situation when the shoe is on the other foot.
For any descendant of the colonial experiment to pronounce on what's best for the people from whom this land was stolen is, in my view, offensive in the extreme. Kay's ideology almost sounds like another of your 'cruising' suggestions.
I welcome respectful comments on my posts at Tyee.
G West.
realisticman
4 years ago
Jee Ouest
It's tiresome when you continually shoot the messenger - if it the message doesn't slot into your ideology.
Perhaps you should read what he wrote - before making up your mind.
G West
4 years ago
Realisticman
I DID read it.
I also read his Pollyanna pronouncements last fall about how well food programs were meeting the needs of the billions of the earth’s citizens who live on less than two or three dollars a day. Like other I could name, he chooses to believe only the selective material he finds which happens to promote his own particular, and I would say rather narrow, point of view.
He suggests the only reason young people would go back to Reserves is nostalgia...that's where the 'cruising' reference came in - perhaps YOU missed it so I’ll post it again for you:
(quote)We must tell the elders and the young that if they wish to remain on distant reserves, that economic opportunity in this modern world will be severely limited at the very best.
The exact opposite of what, to date, has been practiced is probably what needs to be done and that is to encourage the young to go away to school in the cities of Canada and return to their reserves, maybe one day, the same as all immigrants and migrants do - just to visit and reminisce.
(quote)
If you don’t find that kind of talk paternalistic and colonial in its impact and spin, well, the image of Jonathan Kay telling native 'elders' what they should do and promote is equally risible.
Furthermore, let us imagine, if you will, that someone made a similar suggestion to Kay's co-religionists in Israel.
What do you think would be the reaction both here in Canada, and around the world if someone said:
'The situation in Israel is untenable; 5 million Jews are sinking in a growing sea of Arab and Palestinian humanity. The Israelis should cancel their 60 year experiment and move out - things will never change in the Middle East and they will still be able to go back a pay nostalgic visits to a failed experiment.
Many more Jews live in the rest of the world than populate Israel..it's pointless to keep on.'
I also read his other stuff, occasionally he writes something worth reading - the column on Ann Coulter was one such example.
I've ticked the offensive button on you again.
The name is G West.
I invite respectful comments to my posts here at Tyee.
G West
realisticman
4 years ago
GWhest
First this:
Then, again:
What to do? If you read him, can I, should I, or not? I'm getting mixed signals here buddy.
G West
4 years ago
That's an interesting tactic
Rather than deal with the substance of what was written...you post something about 'my' reading material. I certainly agree you're getting mixed up.
I'm pushing the button on you again; it's G West.
I welcome respectful comments to my posts here at Tyee.
G West
Geoff
4 years ago
GWest / Rman
Please quit the bickering.
Thanks,
Geoff.
Yammer
4 years ago
If you don’t find that
If you don’t find that kind of talk paternalistic and colonial in its impact and spin, well, the image of Jonathan Kay telling native 'elders' what they should do and promote is equally risible.
Furthermore, let us imagine, if you will, that someone made a similar suggestion to Kay's co-religionists in Israel.
What do you think would be the reaction both here in Canada, and around the world if someone said:
'The situation in Israel is untenable; 5 million Jews are sinking in a growing sea of Arab and Palestinian humanity. The Israelis should cancel their 60 year experiment and move out - things will never change in the Middle East and they will still be able to go back a pay nostalgic visits to a failed experiment.
Many more Jews live in the rest of the world than populate Israel..it's pointless to keep on.'
This isn't a very good example, because Israel is at least competitive, militarily and economically speaking, in its corner of the world. They're not sinking, except in the sentiments of people who believe in things like human rights.
Which brings about the second point, which is that lots of people actually do criticize the 'elders' of Israel all the time.
The reaction would be a mixture of agreement and hostility, which one expects in a pluralistic society.
Basically, G West, you seem to be saying that 'elders' can't hack being scrutinized and that they should get a pass.
If kids are offing themselves on reserves under their administration in the present system, it's time for the hard questions, not bon bons.
G West
4 years ago
Perhaps, yammer
Perhaps yammer, Israel would NOT be competitive without billions of dollars in support (military and otherwise) from outside. In fact, I think it's pretty clear that the country wouldn't exist without that help. Not that I think it shouldn’t – I think, however, that the example had merit.
Furthermore, I'm not at all upset when First Nations people criticize their leaders and elders...just as many Jews do their leaders. I don't think anything I wrote implied the conclusion you've drawn from it.
My problem is people from our colonialist background - like Jonathan Kay and others - who take it upon themselves to tell the Native Nations of this country how to manage their affairs.
If you don't think that is paternalistic, well, I do.
First Nations need to ask hard questions - one of them being why they should bother at all with the rest of us - given the way we've treated them.
I welcome respectful comments to my posts at Tyee - and I'm more than prepared to defend them without rancour and name calling.
G West.
Canis Latrans
4 years ago
On Perhaps Yammer....
GW,
Whilst I have a considerably more critical view of US/NATO created, to let Germany/Europe off the hook, financially and militarily supported, underwritten and defended so-called "Israel" than yourself, otherwise balanced and good comments overall immediately above me here.
These right wingnuts keeping attempting to put words in our mouths in order to create the strawmen they need to knock down, in a vain attempt to look more rational than everyone knows that they are not. They need a smokescreen behind which to move the pawn pieces of their innate, and scarcely closeted racism.
... and I'm more than prepared to defend my positions vis a vis these goofs, with rancour and name calling, or whatever. :-)
ME2
4 years ago
GWest
First off, good posts, Yammer and Canis L.
I'm not going to argue with you about the info on the sites you've provided, Garth.
Let me illustrate why. Both you and I agree that most of the sites that Mopled advances are so biased, containing unverifiable info, that it becomes too much of a chore to sort out the occasional trustworthy site he offers from all the rest.
And similarly, I an even less willing to read ANYTHING that emanates from the propaganda offices of the Assembly of First Nations, for equally obvious reasons.
Seeing as I can find all kinds of "proof" from people who claim the Earth is flat, perhaps I should I should have added a qualifier to the my challenge to you :
"The other issue is that nowhere have I seen the slightest shred of evidence that TODAY Garth's claim is valid, and I challenge him to produce some credible evidence"[b]
G West
4 years ago
ME2 - my reply
Frankly, I'm tired of this. I gave you two references, and here's a third:
http://www.parl.gc.ca/37/2/parlbus/commbus/senate/Com-e/abor-e/rep-e/repfinoct03-e.htm
I believe all of them to be more than credible - despite your own interpretation – I think the data contained therein is entirely convincing and in more or less perfect agreement with my own observations and readings about the situation - your opinion of the credibility of the authors and contributors notwithstanding.
I have, previously, provided you with a comprehensive list of the differences between First Nations communities and non-First Nations communities with respect to such items as incarceration, alcoholism, suicide, life expectancy, morbidity, education and the like. I didn’t bother to post that information again since I’m sure you recall it from the last time we discussed these issues in detail.
When I try to make what I believe is a cogent and empirical case for my opinions I find that you:
a) insult me by comparing what I've put forward with the material presented by another poster (whose name I won’t mention);
b) insult the credibility of both the Senate Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and the Grand Chief of Canada's First Nations, and;
c) make at least two other ad hominem references which are, to say the least, personally insulting.
I'm simply not interested in continuing this debate.
We disagree. When I try to encourage Realisticman to engage in a 'real' discussion he calls me names.
When I object to this behavior I'm accused of bickering by an editor. A conclusion that I categorically reject, by the way - and which opinion I've expressed directly to the editor in question.
When I present what seems convincing to me, you respond with personal insults.
This is not a debate (particularly given the current attitude of the moderators) that I’m interested in pursuing here unless my interlocutors are willing to refrain from such tactics. In the absence of what I interpret as fair moderation I’m not going to engage in any further discussion with either you or Realisticman in this forum on this subject – there is no point.
So be it.
You know my views. I think they are well-formed and evidence based and that they are shared by a great many other Canadians. I hope a majority of them.
I'm realize that you're not a part of that group but the fact that you aren't isn't going to cause me to lose any sleep tonight.
I welcome respectful comments to my posts at Tyee.
G West
ME2
4 years ago
Why only the Royals?
The very first sentence of the "preamble to the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms", reads :
"Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law"
If we are to get rid of outmoded conventions, I would suggest that there are at least as many people who would want to dump the words "recognize the supremacy of God" every bit as much as getting rid of any real or imagined allegiances to the Royal Family.
ME2
4 years ago
GWest
Sorry, Garth, I couldn't care less if you've tired of this issue. It is you who brought it up and it is you who cannot supply any figures to verify your claims excepting from ONE clearly biased source.
Your gov't source gives NO data re the issue. Since you are usually capable of tracking things down right to the uncrossed "T", it sure looks to me that there IS no supportive evidence for your and the AFN's claim.
Now you're crying crocodile tears, claiming you've been "insulted". How? By comparing your insistence upon offering only clearly biased information with Mopled's practice of doing so? That's very funny, because I've watched you and others gang up on him for doing so and even progress on to ad hominem attacks.
Shit or get off the pot, Garth. If you can't provide hard evidence for your claim, be man enough to admit it and not yet again hide behind your usual plea of "I'm tired of arguing about it"
G West
4 years ago
That's right ME2 - I'm crying crocodile tears
I've provided lots of hard evidence over the months, much of it in a long and bitter dispute with YOU. I'm simply not interested in another slanging match with you - especially given the current attitude of the moderators here. Furthermore, my contribution here came initially as a response to what Realisticman had written...perhaps you've forgotten that.
If you think that the living conditions under which many First Nations people find themselves 'existing' in this country are simply a consequence of the maladjustment of a 'stone age' culture to the wonders of modern European civilization that's fine with me.
I don't.
I'm hardly in hiding - I'm just not interested in having a discussion with someone who starts out a conversation with words like the ones you've directed my way on this thread.
I know you don't agree.
I can live with that.
I welcome respectful comments to my posts at Tyee.
G West
Yammer
4 years ago
G West on the Israel/FN analogy
Perhaps yammer, Israel would NOT be competitive without billions of dollars in support (military and otherwise) from outside. In fact, I think it's pretty clear that the country wouldn't exist without that help. Not that I think it shouldn’t – I think, however, that the example had merit.
Furthermore, I'm not at all upset when First Nations people criticize their leaders and elders...just as many Jews do their leaders. I don't think anything I wrote implied the conclusion you've drawn from it.
I know Israel wouldn't exist (at least with its current 'tude) without the US propping it up, I don't think we disagree.
I do disagree with the curious theory that only insiders are allowed to criticize a group. Is Vanessa Redgrave Jewish? How about Paul Craig Roberts? But they have had things to say about Israel that are useful to hear.
Of course, criticism must be respectful. That it must also come with a bloodtest to determine authority seems...grotesque, frankly.
ME2
4 years ago
GWest
OK, I agree, a constantly repeated litany of all the ills that FNs suffer constitutes adequate proof that DINA spends more on bureaucracy than on programs to FNs.
Elegant logic, Garth, who'd need - or even want - actual figures in the face of all that?
G West
4 years ago
yammer the criticism part was only one element
The criticism part was only one element of the analogy - I was actually equally interested in the other part of the equation...that is, that First Nations - like Israel - if they're going to survive as distinct cultural entities - are also going to need an awful lot of help.
As to the rest of your proposition, criticism is one thing - Kay was suggesting that the whole 'idea' of a separate 'native' culture wasn't worth much as anything other than a tourist artifact.
At least that's the way I read him - I think there's a big difference
ME2 - I did present actual figures.
You simply choose to disbelieve them.
I welcome respectful comments to my posts here at Tyee.
G West.
realisticman
4 years ago
What's it ll about
According to what I read, Jonathan Kay was pleading for us to consider the lives of aboriginal children. I read, again, his article that I linked to, which pleads the case again and I found his previous story that West refers to. Nowhere did I see anything that West says is, "Kay was suggesting that the whole 'idea' of a separate 'native' culture wasn't worth much as anything other than a tourist artifact."
Here's a paragraph from the earlier column:
Kay is writing because children are suffering. The reference to his other columns about Israel are completely irrelevant and any analogy is too. This diversionary attack has also become bogged down, yet is persisted.
It seems that there's a knee-jerk reaction against anything published in the National Post. Dogmatic and simplistic ideological battle station positions eliminate objective thinking.
Don't expect anything rational soon. Too bad for the children.
G West
4 years ago
Just so we're clear Realisticman
This is the passage I was alluding to:
We must tell the elders and the young that if they wish to remain on distant reserves, that economic opportunity in this modern world will be severely limited at the very best.
The exact opposite of what, to date, has been practiced is probably what needs to be done and that is to encourage the young to go away to school in the cities of Canada and return to their reserves, maybe one day, the same as all immigrants and migrants do - just to visit and reminisce.
I know that there are many Canadians who think that 'economic' opportunity is the only thing that has any importance.
I don't happen to agree.
Furthermore, anyone who knows what the result of taking children away from their homes was in the past - for native children and families, would not make such an insensitive remark as this latest suggested 'solution'.
Children and their parents are certainly suffering - the suggestion that more of the same (residential schools or urban ghettoes) is a valid approach for First Nations to adopt is, in my view, paternalistic and insensitive to the traditions of the First Nations of Canada and the history of colonialism.
There is not, in my view, any other possible interpretation for the words copied in bold italics above.
I don't doubt Kay is a person who sees himself as a compassionate person - he's just not very sensitive to the history of this country or its real owners.
European culture dislocated the human beings from whom this land was stolen, pushed them off the land that the settlers wanted and shoved them onto 'reservations'.
Then we stole their children, disrupted their family's lives, disrespected their religion and language and turned them into little more than ghosts and artifacts.
Now, instead of giving them respect and support - not to mention the power to tax, an opportunity to take advantage of THEIR resources in whatever model THEY create and rebuild their lives as they see fit, people like Jonathan Kay, Stephen Harper and Tom Flanagan want to start all over on the same dead end road.
And, Realisticman, I hardly think you're a paragon of objective thinking - in this or any other matter. It's that kind of ad hominem reference to an interlocutor - rather than a critique of his ideas and observations - which leads to the situation where discussion is impossible.
At least you've stopped calling me names - I do appreciate that.
I welcome respectful comments to my posts here at Tyee.
G West.
snert
4 years ago
So they're not taken away any more.
Just how the hell do you account for all the gasoline and glue sniffing?
All you are doing is reinforcing bad logic.
Said with the utmost of respect.
G West
4 years ago
So, I take it you'd support the 'logic'
So I take it you would support the 'logic' behind taking away First Nations children from their families for several generations to send them to residential schools, the attempts to extirpate them from their cultural and linguistic traditions and in many cases abuse these young children horribly?
The effects of which are still being visited upon the survivors and their children and their children's children.
Good luck with that snert - but please don't call it logic.
Why would anyone suggest such a thing?
And I'll send my remakrs right back at you with about an equal measure of 'respect' for your contributions - they are accepted in precisedly the same spirit you've advanced them.
I appreciate respectful comments about my posts at Tyee.
G West
snert
4 years ago
At some point in time
one has to say enough and quite blaming everyone and everything else for the dire straits they find themselves in. Constantly picking at scabs will not allow any wound to heal.
I do not support the continual moaning and groaning about things that are over and done with. There are a significant number of people that went to residential school that did not face emotional collapse. I suspect that for most it was a life altering experience but by no means life destroying.
Focus is always on the horror stories but very seldom on the successes. Therein lies the flaw to your logic. Eventually you will have everyone believing that they are hard done by.
I've said it before and I'll say it again views like yours, if acted upon, will do nothing but perpetuate the misery.
Self pity is not the answer nor is tribalism per se.
That being said I am not against treaties that provide bands with a meaningful opportunity to support themselves but if they are in any way successful eventually even that would not be enough.
How do you think this circle should be broken without isolating the children from the polluted environment that you claim they are living in?
ME2
4 years ago
Snert
Well said Snert. For some it's an industry, and for others it's a paternlistic, feelgood platform from which to pontificate.
As you point out, both have their own reasons to perpetuate "the circle", and neither have FN interests truly at heart.
The first group only wants money, and the second want to force FNs into a cultural model found only in Suzuki's fairy tales, in order to prove their Edenic, utopian model did / can exist.
Meanwhile, more money pours in and even more keeps being called for - while the kids sniff glue.
realisticman
4 years ago
Clear as mud
GWest says, "This is the passage I was alluding to:", in support of his claim that Jonathan Kay, "was suggesting that the whole 'idea' of a separate 'native' culture wasn't worth much as anything other than a tourist artifact.".
Jonathan Kay didn't write what you're quoting to alluding to, West, I did. Perhaps he's owed an apology.
No wonder West says, "..It's that kind of ad hominem reference to an interlocutor - rather than a critique of his ideas and observations - which leads to the situation where discussion is impossible." Just about a perfect case of the pot calling the kettle black.
Canis (to a degree), Yammer, Snert, ME2 and I have all suggested that the old system, still being clung to by some old-school types, has to radically change.
Thank god a majority of clear thinking people are coming around to the understanding that throwing more money at the same system has to stop. Moaning and groaning, paternalistic pontificating and perpetuating the ideal of a tribal utopia far away in the woods, must end.
Courts can work out who owns what. When it comes to social services and funding an entirely new paradigm must be established.
For the sake of the children.
G West
4 years ago
Ah yes.
Well, sorry for blaming Jonathan Kay for your racist remark Realisticman.
However, he's equally culpable.
You might recall this, just the start of one of Kay's paragraphs:
Gage's bloodline sealed his fate
Keep on with this kind of colonialist mentality, it suits you well:
"Moaning and groaning, paternalistic pontificating and perpetuating the ideal of a tribal utopia far away in the woods, must end."
It would be worthy of Cecil Rhodes.
I welcome respectful comments to my posts here at Tyee.
G West.
G West
4 years ago
As for you snert
Please, provide me with a list of 10 First Nations people who'll go on record about the 'positive' experience of residential schools - for themselves - not for some imaginary person you've allegedly 'heard' about.
I welcome respectful comments to my posts here at Tyee.
As for my views about what the solution(s) to these problems is (are)- I'd really appreciate it if you could show me anywhere I've written positively about the Indian Affairs Bureaucracy or suggested I have a program in mind to address the situation.
But don't waste too much of your time on it - because I haven't said. It's just so much easier to pretend I have.
Thank you.
G West
G West
4 years ago
And futher, lest we forget
Readers might actually find a quick re-read of the story and comments appended to this Tyee piece from a little less than a year and a half ago.
http://thetyee.ca/Views/2007/01/30/Charter/
snert
3 years ago
I know
But don't waste too much of your time on it - because I haven't said. It's just so much easier to pretend I have.
Said in the true spirit of the poem Antigonish.
You're good at pretending. You referenced a good article. You and your 'doppelgänger' working the crowd at the same time. Wow!
You almost have me convinced to start looking for those 10 people I didn't say existed even though I'm certain they do.
Answer the question. "How do you think this circle should be broken without isolating the children from the polluted environment that you claim they are living in?"
"Readers" might really be interested in that.
Oh "If that costs some tax money, so be it. Let’s spend a little less on the crazy adventure in Afghanistan." doesn't count as a solution.
G West
3 years ago
Sounds like a great idea to me
I'm glad you appreciate my work.
I'm very proud of it. And I enjoy the opportunity to bring it to the attention of a wider audience.
The previous federal government - and all the provincial governments with an oar in the water at the time - working in consultation with the First Nations - arrived at a deal called the Kelowna Accord.
Perhaps you've forgotten that.
And perhaps you've forgotten what happened to it the minute Pee Wee came to power. He appears, like the folks who support him, much more interested in apologetics than honouring agreements.
One can hardly blame First Nations for suggesting that the rest of us don't keep our promises - that's pretty much the way it has always been...
And, yes, we should either commit the necessary forces (minimum 100,000 active soldiers and 10 - 15 years time line and probably a billion and a half to two billion dollars a year for that period) to Afghanistan or get out and spend the billions being wasted there on something far more worthwhile.
The waste of lives and resources on the current debacle is pitiful and pointless.
As for your poetics, I think I'd suggest the following adjustments while keeping the meter and structure:
There was a snert upon the stair
Strange, he’s almost never there
He drops in with a nasty sneer
Then leaves again without a care.
I welcome respectful comments to my posts at Tyee.
G West
realisticman
3 years ago
Kelowna meeting
The, so called, Kelowna Accord was in fact working papers agreed as a basis for thinking about things. In typical federal Liberal style, there was nothing except a skeleton outline for future discussions. Promises, maybe.
During testimony before the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development, former Prime Minister Paul Martin was questioned on the lack of a signed accord, to which he could not answer. He was further questioned on whether the $5 billion had been budgeted, to which he admitted had not been done. Mr. Martin and former Minister of Finance Ralph Goodale testified that the $5 billion dollars set out in the press release were in fact in the Sources and Uses Table, an internal Department of Finance document which could not be produced or confirmed.
When presenting their first budget on May 2, 2006, the Conservatives indicated that they were committed to meeting the targets set out at the First Ministers' Meeting in Kelowna and the working paper therein produced.
There was no agreement to honour.
I often flag disrespectful comments to West's post at Tyee.
G West
3 years ago
I disagree
You can believe the wikipedia entry if you like Realisticman.
I prefer to refer to the following for my information:
http://www.parl.gc.ca/information/library/prbpubs/prb0604-e.htm
As for whether or not there was an agreement which would bind Stephen Harper's government; you're correct - the Martin government fell in a non-confidence motion before binding action was taken.
However, the pretense that those of a narrow and libertarian frame of mind are the only ones capable of addressing these complex issues is, quite frankly, nonsense.
Like most proponents of tough love like Rudy Giuliani and Rush Limbaugh, these ideas are little more than interesting artifacts from a miserable and mean-spirited past.
Thankfully, most citizens are recognizing the interconnection and dependence necessary to create a decent and humane society and are more interested in building one than sitting around lecturing people about failures of personal responsibility. I must say I find the fact that these are the same folks who, on this file, are also the ones who promote the notion that it is time to say ‘let’s move on’, let’s forget the past,’ let’s let bygones be bygones.’
Have you noticed that disconnect? I certainly have – especially from individuals like Tom Flanagan (an immigrant from the United States); Stephen Harper; Tony Clement; Stockwell Day; … I could to on (the list is not meant to be exhaustive).
This is especially troubling since it comes from people whose backgrounds often have given them no empathy for the actual lives of the people whose futures they are trying to run.
But getting back to the Kelowna Accord, that, of course, doesn't mean that there was no agreement - it simply means the agreement didn't accord with the ‘philosophy’ of the new Prime Minister: A philosophy which, apparently, doesn't put much stock in telling the truth about anything - including the activities of certain 'important' cabinet ministers.
By the way, there is no button available to flag disrespectful comments here at Tyee, Realisticman - only offensive ones.
Please, also, refer to the commenting rules and tell me when I've violated them - I'd appreciate it. My objective is to enlighten, entertain, educate and counter attitudes and beliefs I consider inimical to the future of the province and the country.
I hope never to be offensive whilst doing that. If I’ve ever been, I apologize.
This, of course, doesn’t mean I won’t slap back when provoked.
I welcome respectful comments to my posts here at Tyee.
G West.
G West
3 years ago
I should have added
I also come here to learn about things and attitudes.
I welcome respectful comments to my posts here at Tyee.
G West
snert
3 years ago
[EDITED. -MODERATOR.]
G West
3 years ago
Thanks snert
You've just illustrated my case very nicely.
I'll just tick the offensive button on you in response to that snide remark.
[EDITED. -MODERATOR.]
I welcome respectful comments to my posts here at Tyee.
G West
G West
3 years ago
Much appreciated editor
Pardon me for saying that it is about time.
I welcome respectful comments to my posts here at Tyee.
G West
realisticman
3 years ago
I bow
In awe and humility at the feet of his goodly godliness. Striketh me not, I be beseech thee.
Garth West
realisticman
3 years ago
Interesting
...to see that, as of now, the latest "Best Comment" as approved by the editors, is a post from G West that he later said sorry for mistaking attributing a quote he had repeated.
Hardly stands up to the sniff test if it's later proved, and admitted to be, wrong.
Just like all things in life; caveat emptor.
G West
3 years ago
Please, don't be too generous - what I actually said was:
This is what I actually said:
(quote)
Well, sorry for blaming Jonathan Kay for your racist remark Realisticman.
However, he's equally culpable.
You might recall this, just the start of one of Kay's paragraphs:
Gage's bloodline sealed his fate
Keep on with this kind of colonialist mentality, it suits you well:
"Moaning and groaning, paternalistic pontificating and perpetuating the ideal of a tribal utopia far away in the woods, must end." [quoted from Realisticman’s post]
It would be worthy of Cecil Rhodes.
(quote)
IF one of my students asked for an example of the straw man argument I'd be hard pressed to find a better one than that quote of yours about 'a tribal utopia'.
As for the 'best comments' business; who cares - I never look past the 'all comments' tab.
It's a complete waste of time.
I will say, however, that in this case, it would appear the editors understood the pith and substance of what I'd written more comprehensively than you appear to have done.
As for Latin maxims, I'd suggest that 'volenti non fit iniuria' would be much more appropriate under the circumstances...
I welcome respectful comments to my posts here at Tyee.
G West.
realisticman
3 years ago
Au contraire
It may be easy for you, West, to call Jonathan Kay and me racists but I believe that the racists are really the social service people.
Like virtually all aboriginal-run child-services outfits, this one had a mandate to place children in homes that are “culturally” — which is to say, racially — “appropriate.”
And so — following an explicitly racist logic that our society would deem abhorrent in just about any other context — child services sentenced Gage to a lice-ridden life amidst the anonymous alcoholics traipsing through his paternal grandmother’s house; and then with a great-aunt, a former car thief who’d been imprisoned for assault.
So, he's dead. Can you accept that an ethnically considered social policy is paramount, no matter the circumstances?
And, you call me a racist!
G West
3 years ago
That's hardly fair
WE created that system; we created the atmosphere of cultural genocide...why would you be surprised that a system which spends more on administration than it does on building homes and providing water treatment would also end up with such results?
Your statements, and statements like Kay's about what a person's 'blood' condemns them to rings far too clearly of another ‘great’ cultural experiment of the 20th century.
Why do you think First Nations are so desperate to hang onto what you seem to think are the shards of their culture - however threadbare you and Jonathan Kay happen to think it is?
By the way, I never called you or Jonathan Kay a racist - I said you'd both made racist remarks.
There is a difference.
I think your anger betrays you.
You might wish to think about another Latin maxim in that context - this one from Horace:
"...ira furor brevis est."
I welcome respectful comments to my posts at Tyee.
G West
realisticman
3 years ago
GWest
I'm not angry but I am sad; for the children and for the families.
You say;
You need not accept ownership and responsibility. It started probably before you or I were around. The collective 'we' is really all of us here now and that includes everyone. The point is we are here now and things should change. If you feel so strongly why do you constantly complain while Jonathan Kay and I criticize that same system?
G West
3 years ago
Because of the way you do it.
Surely you can't have missed the fact that I expect the Native Peoples to behave decently toward their own people and to respect the laws of the land as well?
Perhaps you recall that my objection to the Tsawwassen settlement wasn't because that First Nation ended up with a big deal from the government - I was upset because the Campbell forces ignored the rules for taking land out of the ALR and created a treaty on that basis.
Morality cuts both ways - just as I believe the first problem to be solved for the homeless is to get them into HOMES - then worry about jobs, health, addiction and the like once the basics have been converted.
It's the same thing with the safe injection site. Before you can change peoples lives - first you have to save them.
And I do accept ownership and responsibility - which is why I won't sit still while you and Jonathan Kay and pee wee Rambo and his ilk talk nonsense about what the FIRST NATIONS 'have' to do. And I won’t cheer when Campbell cheapens the discourse with the kind of thing he ‘did’ in the Tsawwassen ‘deal’ and he and Graham Bruce have done with the Cowichan band government.
WE can only provide the conditions - and so far we've totally failed at everything about that (in fact and by example).
Destroying the few vestiges of pride they have left in the process.
I welcome and appreciate respectful replies to my posts at Tyee.
Thanks for finally delivering one.
G West
snert
3 years ago
Hmmmm?
http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=40284c29-7b52-467a-af5d-02a74cbad630
ME2
3 years ago
Snert
Yes, it's a Hmmmm alright Snert. Since this is far from just a single, isolated instance, I wonder when TYEE, in the spirit of keeping us informed, will run a series on these happenings?
But then, maybe Democratic procedure is something only "white" populations have a right to expect? It sure looks that way.
Following his declaration in his post immediately preceding yours, in which he avers.......
"Surely you can't have missed the fact that I expect the Native Peoples to behave decently toward their own people and to respect the laws of the land as well?"
.......I'm surprised that GWest hasn't dived in right away with a ready explanation, since he has never missed such a golden opportunity before.
realisticman
3 years ago
Qu'a de neuf?
Plus ca change.
What's new? Things don't change.
Feudal.