Topic
As BC Liberals panic, denying they made an anti-HST election promise, various false claims need correction. Here goes.
No HST petition station on Main Street in Vancouver. Photo courtesy of Photocat62 from the Tyee readers' photo pool.
This is good tax policy for consumers, say two UBC economists, and I agree.
Timber companies keep getting bigger tax breaks, yet put less and less into BC. The HST won't turn that around.
Why aren't Canadian Taxpayers Federation and chambers of commerce fighting the tax small business hates?
"I'm not a big fan of direct democracy." -- B.C. Liberal MLA Terry Lake
As the B.C. Liberal government panics in the face of overwhelming opposition to the 12 per cent Harmonized Sales Tax due to be imposed July 1, it's time to separate the HST hits from the myths.
Start with Terry Lake, the Kamloops-North Thompson B.C. Liberal MLA who chairs a legislative committee that will deal with the Fight HST citizens initiative petition that has achieved the signatures of 10 per cent of all voters in each of the province's 85 ridings.
Lake should be removed as chair after first saying that: "The committee could look at that initiative and say that it's invalid. I'm not a lawyer, but I don't know about the constitutionality of the wording of the petition, for example."
Premier Gordon Campbell had to quickly correct Lake's bone-headed misreading of Elections B.C. rules and admit the committee can't dismiss the petition. But Lake has already demonstrated his unfitness for the job.
Lake claimed that the initiative process "Gives people a voice and an opportunity to speak to government directly" before throwing under the train the Fight HST initiative led by former B.C. premier Bill Vander Zalm.
In case anyone thought Lake liked the fact that more than 600,000 British Columbia voters have signed a petition disagreeing with the HST, he clarified, "I'm not a big fan of direct democracy. What we have is a representative democracy, and I think we should work within that tradition."
Hansen’s claim of 'no promise made'
Unfortunately, Lake is far from alone in myth-representing the facts about the HST, which will add an additional seven per cent tax onto the GST of five per cent on a wide range of goods and services currently not subject to the existing Provincial Sales Tax.
B.C. Liberal Finance Minister Colin Hansen leads the pack. When asked by CKNW radio host Jill Bennett why his government had broken a promise made before the 2009 election not to impose the HST, Hansen denied it.
"There was no such promise made," Hansen claimed. "When people say that, they're not being accurate."
Hansen should talk to restaurant owners and their association, which will suffer under the extra seven per cent tax on food.
"The province broke a promise to our industry when they introduced the HST, and today they have broken another one by offering nothing in the budget to lessen the impact on our industry," said Mark von Schellwitz, vice president Western Canada for the Canadian Restaurant and Foodservices Association on March 2.
The CFRA's news release goes on to say: "During the last election the B.C. government promised the CRFA in writing that they would not introduce the HST or change taxation on food without consultation. Then, September's budget speech included a promise to work with the restaurant industry to mitigate the negative impact of the HST. So far the government has refused to act on any of the industry's recommendations." In a May 18 letter to The Province newspaper, Hansen explained the party position this way: "What did happen? During elections, political parties receive dozens of surveys from organizations. These surveys are answered on behalf of candidates by individuals working out of the party headquarters.
"In response to two surveys asking about the HST, the answer was sent out, quite correctly, that the HST 'is not something that is contemplated in the B.C. Liberal platform.'"
Oh, I see. How could anyone think that was a promise?
Home Builders heard a promise
Hansen should also talk to the Greater Vancouver Home Builders' Association. It also asked the BC Liberal Party specific questions on the HST: "Does your party wish to promote HST? If so, how does your party plan to preserve housing affordability?"
Association CEO Peter Simpson wrote in a Vancouver Sun column that Ontario's announcement to impose an HST on new homes there had prompted concerns in his members. "In its response, the Liberals defended the current provincial tax system and found fault with tax harmonization," Simpson wrote.
"The response included: 'A harmonized GST would reduce the provincial government's ability to unilaterally adjust sales tax rates. The harmonized GST would make it harder for future provincial governments to lower or raise sales tax rates, which reduces flexibility. In short, a harmonized GST is not something that is contemplated in the B.C. Liberal platform...'
"Because the Liberals indicated they did not support harmonization, it is reasonable to assume that was the reason the second question regarding preserving housing affordability under HST went unanswered," Simpson concluded.
'Harmonization has not been on our agenda'
And why would restaurant and home builders' associations or anyone else think the B.C. Liberals would bring in an HST, after past B.C. Liberal policy on the HST was clear from statements from like then -- Small Business and Revenue Minister Rick Thorpe in the B.C. Legislature on March 11, 2008, in response to a question from NDP MLA Jagrup Brar about creating a Harmonized Sales Tax:
J. Brar: "I will move on to another question. There has been a recommendation on the table of the minister about PST and GST harmonizing. I would like to ask the minister where the minister is. Is that on the table, or is there any action on that?"
Hon. R. Thorpe: "First of all, that is tax policy, which would fall under the minister of finance. But I have commented on that in the past, and I will comment on that here today, because on this particular issue, the minister of finance and I have worked extremely closely and have both said exactly the same thing to the public.
"It sounds very attractive to talk about harmonization, but one of the things that people have to realize is... I can't remember if it was the competition board or the Progress Board that estimated that flow-throughs through harmonization to taxpayers could amount to $2 billion a year.
"I think that careful consideration has to take place when you contemplate those kinds of things.
"In British Columbia we have an extensive exemption list. Under GST, there aren't exemptions.
"Let me just give you a couple of examples. One is that restaurant meals in British Columbia are PST-exempt. They are not GST-exempt.
"That is a serious question. One that I think all members in this House would have concern about is that children's clothing is PST-exempt, but it's not GST-exempt.
"Those types of decisions have far-reaching ramifications, and I can say that harmonization has not been on our agenda."
Hmmmm. So if the HST has "not been on our agenda" and could cost taxpayers $2 billion and later, in response to both restaurant and development industry questions before the election, the answer is that the HST is "not something that is contemplated" then -- hell, no -- that's not a promise!
But don't think Hansen and Campbell are the only ones who confuse a promise with a straight answer. There are others who can't even figure out what the HST will do.
Mistakes in Victoria's opinion pages
Long-time political columnist Jim Hume of the Victoria Times-Colonist is retired but still contributes to the paper. Regrettably his HST analysis misses the mark.
"We can't have all we wish for. We tailor our demands or raise taxes to fund them," Hume recently concluded after writing with tongue in cheek that B.C. would be an even greater place if the government spent far more money on public services, but without raising taxes.
The problem with Hume's conclusion that the HST will raise extra money to buy public services is simple. It's wrong. The additional income coming from applying the HST extra seven per cent will not contribute one thin dime to health care, education or social services -- because it is revenue neutral.
The same mistake has been made by other commentators who presume that all new taxes simply go to government coffers -- not true with the HST.
As Hansen, Campbell, the B.C. Business Council and other HST supporters have made clear, the HST raises $1.9 billion a year from consumers and transfers all of it to businesses.
The HST is designed to be revenue neutral to government. It is a tax shift from businesses to consumers, not a new source of income to pay for additional services.
Savings for citizens? No sure thing
The big business community loves the HST, and no wonder. Large companies will no longer pay the current seven per cent PST on the purchase of goods and services needed to produce their products and instead get "input tax credits."
And yet some claim in another HST myth that these businesses will all reduce their prices by the same seven per cent savings.
"If the tax credits are passed through completely to consumers, then the HST will be a wash for consumers as a whole -- $2 billion up and $2 billion down," wrote Kevin Milligan, an associate professor of economics at the University of British Columbia, in a recent Vancouver Sun commentary. Milligan admits that if businesses do not pass on the savings that "consumers will face a steeper tax burden." No kidding!
But he figures, based on "textbook lessons" and "real-world evidence" that we have nothing to worry about.
I beg to differ.
After the federal Goods and Services Tax was imposed did we see huge savings passed on to anything we buy? No, just higher costs.
But the main problem is even simpler. Most big B.C. businesses don't produce the goods and services that B.C. consumers purchase, so they can't pass on "savings" to the people who are paying the extra HST costs.
Big breaks for foreign corporations
I'm no economics professor but I do know that businesses like Rio Tinto Alcan, Canfor, Timber West, Teck Resources, and others don't sell products that most of us purchase in any significant quantity.
That means that even if the price of aluminum, copper or wood products drops by seven per cent, it won't matter to individual consumers compared to paying an extra seven per cent on restaurant food, haircuts, basic cablevision, domestic airline tickets, sports and concert tickets, gym memberships, massage therapy and a huge number of other goods and services that currently are not subject to the seven per cent PST but will be taxed under the HST
In other words, you and I will each be paying hundreds to thousands of dollars in extra HST costs -- for a total of $1.9 billion every year -- simply to subsidize Alcan selling aluminum to China!
And the only possible price reduction for most of us will be, maybe, seven per cent less on a roll of aluminum foil worth under $5!
And Campbell and Hansen still wonder why over 82 per cent of British Columbians oppose the HST?
You could ask if they're nuts. But you know they aren't.
Campbell and Hansen also think it's a myth that British Columbians will remember the HST after it's been imposed. In three years they think the B.C. Liberals can be re-elected, likely under a new leader.
I'm betting they're wrong, and that if they don't drop the HST, a recall campaign starting in November will end their re-election opportunities a lot sooner.
Elegy
My biggest fan, best political advisor and toughest editor -- my mom Pat Tieleman -- passed away last week after a courageous battle with lung cancer. You can read my tribute to her here. ![[Tyee]](http://thetyee.cachefly.net/ui/img/ico_fishie.png){kind=small}
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CanadianLatitude
2 years ago
Hansen should talk to
Hansen should talk to restaurant owners and their association, which will suffer under the extra seven per cent tax on food.
===========
I do not feel to bad for them even though I am against the HST as they are the ones who put pressure to bring in the 6 buck 'training wage' and no doubt keep the pressure from raising the lowest min wage in Canada which has not been raised 8 1/2 years...
miguel
2 years ago
Direct democracy
The OED defines democracy as government of, and by the people. In other words, it is direct by definition. Anything else isn't democracy.
Ronald Pagan
2 years ago
Rich
pretty rich to see Bill Tieleman right an article about HST myths when he is the biggest progenitor of them.
First, revenue neutrality of the HST. The HST has been shown in each province that has previously adopted it to spur economic growth. More growth will lead to more tax receipts. That's undeniable so yes the HST will raise more revenue.
Your GST point is simply laughable. Shocking actually that you would put that in an article. After we implemented a NEW tax did we see prices go down? Absolutely not, do you think we are braindead Bill? An appropriate comparison would have been if we had a sales tax and then changed it to the GST. Unbelievably bad, but expected.
Moreover, most, if not all analysis of VAT adoption in the western world shows that yes competition does force businesses to pass on the cost savings. The fact that you just repudiate this with absolute non-sense or anecdotal evidence about your business doesn't take away from that fact.
Finally, you don't have to "produce" goods to be in a supply chain whereby the HST will bear its advantages. Any supply chain, that involves two or more intermediaries will lower the total tax burden for everyone, not just businesses.
Finally, the weak populist attempt to paint this as a powerful corporation versus the little guy struggling to make ends meet is just baseless. VATs have been used successfully in many more socially oriented countries who have some basic understanding of taxation and economics. Moreover, the fundamental core of the BC economy is resource extraction and that is not likely to change any time soon. Making those businesses more competitive will help the average BCer struggling, especially in rural areas. But this issue is often painted from Bill's urban I have to pay more for my latte perspective which compeletely disregards that other side of the ledger.
Carry on spreading misinformation Bill and The Tyee.
Ed Seedhouse
2 years ago
[EDITED. ]
[ACCUSING ANOTHER COMMENTER OF SPREADING FALSE INFORMATION WITHOUT BACKING UP THAT CLAIM IS CONSIDERED OFFENSIVE AND WILL BE REMOVED. -MODERATOR.]
rantnic
2 years ago
AFTER RECALL?
Let's say we do recall a bunch of Liberals? What do we get then? The NDP think that they are the naturals to form a new government, as they are, the major contenders. A prominent NDP MLA recently told me that it would be very unlikely that they, as the government, would repeal the HST. They lost my support quite easily on that note.
We need to look for "alternatives" or "independents" that will break the hold that the present political parties have in Victoria.
Word on the street is "we need change" but please lets not drag out that old horse the STV, as it's main job is to insure that incumbents hold the advantage.
RickW
2 years ago
Ronald Pagan
But what kind of "economic growth"? So far, the only hint the government has given us is that logging companies will be able to ship yet more raw logs out of province. Show me how that "economic growth" helps Joe and Janet Lunchbucket, please.
DJT
2 years ago
Sorry to hear about your
Sorry to hear about your mother, Bill.
Jeffrey J.
2 years ago
Tieleman Having An Effect
I admire and respect the ongoing work of Mr. Tieleman (along with so many others, including the Tyee, Michael Geist, Sean Holman and Dr. Chris Shaw).
Folks, this is what REAL journalism and real democracy looks like. It is about printing articles and opinions, week in and week out, regarding our ruling elites and what they are doing to us, how they describe it, and how unjust and unfair it is. Full stop.
Without these tenacious volunteers working far harder than the owners of the MSM (Mainstream Media), BC citizens would know almost nothing about the Campbell Liberals and how they are slowly destroying BC's democracy.
Great coverage.
Hughes
2 years ago
Horse's ass
I’m no rocket surgeon either Bill, but the notion that business will pass along any savings to consumers is complete bunk IMO. I personally like the image conjured up by Galbraith’s explanation of the horse-and-sparrow theory whereby “If you feed the horse enough oats, some will pass through to the road for the sparrows.”
Well, it would seem that 600,000, and counting, British Colombians are tired of the shit that passes from the horse's ass that is Campbell.
Case in point. Is the Liquor Distribution Branch passing along the 3% savings to British Columbians for their favourite libations?
off-the-radar
2 years ago
recall for who?
I think recall is a great idea. Not so sure though that voters want a change of government i.e NDP. Or at least not with Carol James at the helm (nice lady that she is).
But what about exercising recall and electing some conservative MLAs belonging to a new conservative party? Might end up with the Liberals having to work as a coalition government.
Van Isle
2 years ago
Everyone seems to forget
Everyone seems to forget that this whole GST business was and is promoted by the Corporations. Why? Very simple; so they get more of a tax break. That is why the Vancouver Board of Trade, the Fraser Institute, and the BC Chamber of Commerce are all for it. If there's a shortage of tax revenue someone or somebody has to make up for it; simple, imply another tax on the great unwashed.
off-the-radar
2 years ago
PS Recall Gordon Campbell
Chris Delaney seems like a smart prinicipled guy; maybe he would be a great premier. Could not be worse than Campbell at any rate.
Gotta recall Campbell, even if that is the only recall campaign.
jim1966
2 years ago
Plain And Simple, They Lied 100%
First my condolences for your recent loss Bill. Okay, I read your article this morning and I cannot believe there are still people posting that think the HST is a good thing. They are wrong. Despite the so called benefits the BC Liberals lied and and that is the truth. Mr Hansen denied lying, of course he would deny it. Admit a lie, are we talking about the same BC government here or what folks?. Okay, this is a boondoggle for sure. We the people demand better from any government that is the point here folks. We all know that death and taxes are about the only real "for sure" thing in life. Most people agree, what people are angry about is the lie before, during and after the election. That is the core meat of the issue and Mr Hansen cannot deny it ever. The HST is a tax shift from big business to us the consumers. Big business will get tax breaks when we will all pay more. And the HST credit thing that the BC Liberals keeping harping about?. It is a paltry $57.50 every three months. (Based on a single's person's income)(This rate might be higher for a larger family). If you are a disabled person or a low income earner. You can forget any huge rebates like Ontario is issuing to folks, about $1000.00 per person (Income test required to qualify for this one time rebate). Heck we did not even get asked about this either. Once again Mr Campbell's actions speak louder than words. Bottom line is that he and others members of this government must go. There is no other choice. It is the only way to restore or repair the BC Liberal's sinking ship and it is sinking fast.
Camero409
2 years ago
Ronald Pagan
EDITED FOR PERSONAL INSULTS -- TYEE MODERATOR I am a realtor. I will benefit from the HST. The clients I work for will not. That is why I am against the HST. It is unequivocally, a tax shift from the working class, white collar workers and the poor to the business elite. To say it isn't is misleading and a outright lie. Shaw cable was asked if they will reduce their services by 7%. They said NO! Will Alcan and the rest reduce their costs proportionally? Let me put it this way RP, I'll give you two to one odds they won't. Let me ask you this, when the Maritime provinces went to the HST did the manufacturing industry rush to those provinces and set up business? NO THEY DIDN'T! Instead they moved to China, India, all over southeast Asia and other low wage countries. Did we see a reduction in the cost of our goods? NO!
You're very mistaken if you think the people of BC will believe the LIbERalS again.
dave49
2 years ago
Paying for the Olympics?
My wife's view is that the Libs pushed this knowing the huge debts that would result from the Olympics.
In Quebec, they taxed cigarettes to finish the Olympic Stadium. Here, we are taxing everyone.
Skywalker
2 years ago
Way to go Bill, hang in there.
The liberals lied to get elected once and it worked for them. Why would they not do it again. They assume that the voters has an attention span of two weeks and for the most part they are correct. But the HST will be around till election time if they have their way and that makes it different. It has legs, lots of them and the issue will grate on people's nerves every time the buy something.
I have yet to run into someone that thinks HST is a good idea or one who appreciates the liberal contention that it will do something positive. Nobody believes prices will go down ever because of it. Only the anonymous, like Pagan, believe something so mythical.
Frank
2 years ago
Ronald's lies
First, the HST has not led to high economic growth in any province. If it did, Nova Scotia and Quebec would be leading the nation in economic growth. They aren't.
Second, many countries that have a VAT have social policies and levels of equality that people like Ronald fight against. If you have a roughly equal society as far as incomes consumption taxes work fine. In countries where there is a high degree of inequality, such as Canada, its a recipe for disaster if you're not in the top 20%.
Third, some countries with VAT taxes are talking about lowering them, in order to spur consumer demand. The obvious conclusion of course is that VAT taxes have hurt consumer demand.
Fourth, BC business has already enjoyed huge tax cuts federally and provincially and yet prices didn't fall and unemployment remains very high. Ronald has obviously never been north of Hope where he'd discover that all those corporate tax cuts has left Campbell's "heartland" in worse shape than its ever been. Which might explain why people there are signing the anti-HST petition in high numbers. Too bad economists can't understand why that happens in the real world. Maybe one day they will.
Fifth, even the government admits its a business versus the little guy issue. They've said its revenue neutral for them and that business will pay $1.9 billion less and consumers will pay $1.9 billion more. Can't get more clear than that.
Carry on trying to convince us all that what happens in the real world can't happen Ronald.
Conductor274
2 years ago
Ronald Pagon type views
Campbell and his cronies sent callers to radio talk shows and stacked different events with Liberal loyalists in an attempt to quash any disagreements with their policies in the past. EDITED FOR PERSONAL INSULTS AND INSINUATIONS WITHOUT PROOF. TYEE MODERATOR
We can argue about the merits or the draw backs of the HST until the cows come home but that is not going to take away the public's anger about being lied to by Campbell AGAIN! Most people are honorable and want justice for themselves and others. Receiving such dishonesty and crooked behavior from our elected officials flies right in the face of everything that makes up a civilized society. The HST is the straw that broke the camels back. Trust with these lying Liberal/Conservatives has been destroyed forever.
For those of you that fear that the NDP or some other party would take over our government I say this. No other leader and no other political party could be as bad as these bunch of liars that are destroying our province in favor of corporate power and greed.
tlowan
2 years ago
Elegy
I'm sorry for your loss, Bill and I respect your ability to continue your reporting in the face of it.
FishingFool
2 years ago
GST - a new tax
Ronald Pagan wrote: "Your GST point is simply laughable. Shocking actually that you would put that in an article. After we implemented a NEW tax did we see prices go down? Absolutely not, do you think we are braindead Bill? An appropriate comparison would have been if we had a sales tax and then changed it to the GST. Unbelievably bad, but expected."
You do know that the GST replaced the 14% FST with a 7% GST, right? When the HST was implemented in the Maritimes the rate was reduced from the PST rates in effect at the time.
If you are going to slam others you might take the time to get your facts straight.
MichaelT
2 years ago
I put this on the LPC page on Facebook
and it was deleted damn fast - first post yes we need a coalition, link to poll, next post I said Layton should lead it! and it was deleted pretty quick.
They are hidebound too recalcitrant over there.
Liberals for Layton! Let's start it up, who's with me?
MichaelT
2 years ago
doh wrong page+ GM's bizarre elect harper Gordon Campbell
sorry wrong tab on browser - I;ll go over there now.
Oh and check out the GM's bizarre elect harper Gordon Campbell should "fight" for HSt, damn referendums!
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/editorials/campbell-should-fight-on-for-the-hst/article1587320/
thumbs up on Earth Man!
KWD
2 years ago
great post Frank
It's time to look at the real world ...
One never ceases to be amazed by how readily the myopic will rely on simplistic justification for restructuring tax regimes ... particularly ones that benefit the already wealthy. The secret to prosperity? ... more growth. If only it were true.
Even if we ignore the obvious failures of various VAT and HST regiemes; if one bothers to clear away the haze generated by the nonsense that uses measures like GDP or business investment/growth as a measure of quality of life and looks at the full impact of growth, particularly economic growth, a much different picture comes into view.
Economic … and human population … growth on this planet is limited by resource availability. For a good part of human history resources have been plentiful. This has allowed economies to flourish and populations to grow, almost exponentially.
During this period of rapid growth a great many folks appropriated enormous amounts of wealth, and, not surprisingly, they were’nt about to yield to those who tried to shed light on the growth picture.
But times have changed. Globablly, humanity is facing a problem that results when easily accessed resources peak … in economic terms that’s the point when the energy return on investment approaches zero. When that happens resource abundance begins to look more like resource scarcity and populations and economies must adjust to the new, lower levels.
The most obvious example is fossil fuels but there are many others, like the increasing scarcity of potable water, reduced productivity in the oceans due to acidification, and the loss of enormous tracts of land suitable for agriculture due to desertification and human encroachment. This stuff is common knowledge yet is convieniently ignore by the growth-is-good proponents.
Yes, times have changed and the bulk of humanity is starting to question the growth-is-good philosphy … and the wealthy don’t like being under the spotlight.
deeby
2 years ago
Ronald Pagan...(WTF?)
Looks like the spirits are restless in the hexenkeller at the Ledge....
Elsewhere, erstwhile wizard, the Zalm, assembles the tools for an exorcism :-)
DPL
2 years ago
Hansen was at it again today
Hansen was at it again today ( Tuesday) in question period. seems some small educational Institute in Port Alberni suddenly found out their building costs were going up around 70,000 bucks. Oh can't happen says Hansen, then he wandered off on a tangent telling us the benefits of the HST. The NO HST folks will pick up a lot of signatures when his tirade hits the TV News this evening. Keep babbling Hansen and the protest vote will keep going up. Nobody likes getting told lies, especially by someone collecting a large salary paid by the folks the lies are directed toward. BUt by gosh Gordo can sure clap.
cboo44
2 years ago
And the bad news is
If there was an election tomorrow, a change of government, the HST would STILL be with us. Remember GST ?
NO government can afford to renege on the HST agreement. Fact of life. As much as I hate the HST, it's here, and those lying b*&^*#@*&^ in Victoria planned it all, well in advance of the election.
Tangler
2 years ago
Your Mother Pat
I am sorry to take this off-track for a minute, but your Elegy struck me so very, very hard. Just yesterday, I learned that my wife, my best friend, and the love of my life for 40 (short) years has inoperable lung cancer. She will leave me soon, and I simply can't bear the thought of losing her. Her son and daughter are equally devastated, if not more so.
I'm deeply sorry for your loss Mr. Tieleman and I hope your wounds heal soon. But at this moment, I don't know how that might happen. It all seems impossible in the face of such devastation.
Again, sorry for the off-topic post. I had to get that off my chest.
Sockeye
2 years ago
Where is BC Boy?
I do recall BC Boy telling me that the HST petition would fail and that we would never hit our targets, I want him to admit he was wrong and that he underestimated how pissed off people are.
Realist
2 years ago
yea Campbel is big liar
Everyone seems hell bent om proving that the Campblell liberals lie, This is a fact we all know From the ndp to the world's reporters we all get the message that these are dihonerable men and women who should never again hold anyone's trust.
Let's move on from this fact and do something else that proves their dishonesty is costing the taxpayer their hard earnrd money, Yeah they srink to high heaven of dishonesty. lets go after the results of their lies be it a disabled man and his son being forced out of bc housing due to excsssive rates, seniors living in the streets becuse too much money was wasted on the olympics or suicide rates of the homless who have no one to turn to as a result of corporate welfare. Lets ge to the roots of the problem. get rid of this poor rexcuse for ahuman being asnd gert back to the Canaians we all feel we should be. Course then ther is Harper who has taken over the mantle of Canada's weapon of Mass Destrution. he too must go and be replace with a human being with a heart instead of a cahregister in his chest. O vicious problem at a time
rantnic
2 years ago
The Banks Pay Taylor, We Pay HST
After Taylor Gave the banks a 135M a year tax break and collected her "Directorship" reward, someone must take up the slack. Guess Who! The reason that so many of our politicians are lawyers is because the bottom feeders like to pick the bones of those who cant swim away. How many times have we seen a taxpayer or two drowning?
Fiat lux
2 years ago
The words "economic growth"
The words "economic growth" or the GDP, measure and mean absolutely nothing. Some of the countries that report the largest "growths" also have the largest poverty and slave labour systems, with the money going into the pockets of the owners and executives of the slave driver corporate mafia.
Also, the more "competitive", the more poor and enslaved we get. Which is the purpose of economic competition in the first place: The legalization of slavery under fascist dictatorships, calling themselves "conservatives"
Ed Deak. Big Lake.
Stephanie T
2 years ago
I have a question....
I have been following the HST debate since the beginning and I have yet to see or hear this question asked...
Since HST is replacing both the PST and the GST, won't the HST rebate merely replace the GST rebate? If this is the case, we lowly "taxpayers" will see a net gain of.....ZERO! Can someone answer this question?
Camero409
2 years ago
rantnic
Back up what your saying. I'm working on the HST campaign and one of the individuals I'm working with on this is a NDP MLA. Do you think he will work on this and then keep it after forming a government? I doubt it. In fact I'll ask him next time I see him. Who is the MLA you said won't rescind the HST? Or are you just a LIbERal spreading innuendo?
Sockeye
2 years ago
I also have a question
Have there been any companies in BC that have come out and said they would invest more capital to expand their operations and hire more workers because of the HST? My guess would be no because the expansion of jobs especially in forestry and mining are tied to demand for the product, not the supply.
zalm
2 years ago
sockeye
it is axiomatic in economics that investing more in capital causes more workers to lose their jobs. That is the purpose of investing in capital.
zalm
2 years ago
Economic bafflegab
Those who would defend the HST should at least read the studies they’re based on. That would keep them from spreading such wretched lies like the one Ronald the Fagan started us off with up top:
”First, revenue neutrality of the HST. The HST has been shown in each province that has previously adopted it to spur economic growth.”
It hasn’t been shown in any of the studies that adoption of the HST spurred any economic growth whatsoever. Each of the studies specifically mentions that other tax changes such as the Atlantic Investment Tax Credit and the services subsidies to businesses supplying municipalities, hospitals and schools (MASH), and royalty holidays paid to businesses engaging in oil & gas and manufacturing opportunities in the provinces; or changes in the Bank of Canada rate; or further, that it is impossible to justify any changes in revenues as accruing to the change in retail tax (RST) policy.
There are three studies only - all the rest is just commentary, or does not address the question, or uses data from other countries with different situations. I have included one of Michael Smart’s commentaries because it is referred to in passing by proponents of the HST.
The Effect of the Harmonized Sales Tax on Consumer Prices in Atlantic Canada Murrell & Yu (2000)
On the Incidence of the Manufacturers’ Sales Tax and the Goods and Services Tax. Ruggeri & Bluck, 1990.
Lessons in Harmony: What experience in the Atlantic provinces shows about the benefits of a HST Michael Smart, CD Howe commentary, (2007)
The economic impacts of value added taxation: Evidence from the HST provinces Michael Smart, U of T (2007).
Not one of them comes down unequivocally on the side of reform as a genuine revenue-neutral policy the way it has been sold. Michael Smart’s study has been used by Hansen and the rest of the BC Fiberals, so let’s see what he says:
zalm
2 years ago
Bafflegab, Part II
Smart, in his paper, further says:
This paper goes beyond conventional wisdom and provides quantitative estimates of the likely economic effect of converting provincial RSTs to a value-added base like the GST, with particular emphasis on the effects on business investment and on consumer prices and the distribution of tax burdens resulting from the reform.
So this “paper” provides only estimates, no actual statistics of price cuts! And doesn't use "convention wisdom", but rather... what? Wild-ass guesses? Knowledge from space aliens?
However, my empirical methodology, discussed below, does not allow these long-run effects to be estimated directly.
And even the estimates cannot be trusted further than next week!
I examine the relationship between changes in consumer prices and changes in effective tax rates in the harmonizing provinces in the years following the 1997 reform.... The results show that the pattern of relative price changes among consumer expenditures was quite similar to the pattern of relative changes in taxes and business costs induced by the reform — that is, each 1 percent increase in costs induced by taxes leads to approximately a 1 percent increase (or perhaps more) in the price paid by consumers.
Great - so prices go up.
Indeed, overall, consumer prices in the harmonizing provinces fell with the 1997 reform, although prices rose somewhat for shelter and for clothing and footwear, so that the reform was slightly regressive.
So much for the poor. Let ‘em eat cake, if they can afford it.
The treatment of services is complicated under the GST, with many service sectors receiving tax-exempt status, while [airlines, ships, foreign autos and trucks] are in fact zero-rated... input tax rebates paid under the GST to exempt suppliers in the Municipal, Academic, Schools, and Hospitals (MASH) sector makes these services much closer to zero-rated (i.e., tax-free) under the GST.
And tax-free airlines benefits hospitals and schools.... how? And we have to jigger with the GST to stop the public services sector from paying excess taxes...this is a simplification - how?
zalm
2 years ago
Bullshit Part III
Smart goes on to write:
These differences mean that a move by the provinces from their current RST bases to any true value-added tax base might have large consequences for government revenues and for the distribution of tax burdens between business and consumers and among sectors of the economy. Just how big the consequences would be, however, is an open question.
So, you don’t know this either?
A primary effect of reform in the RST provinces would be to reduce the effective tax rates on capital.... causing investment per capita in the reforming provinces to rise. However, the sudden rise in relative investment appears to slow down or even reverse after 1999; this is as expected, since a reduction in the effective tax rate on capital goods should lead to a permanent rise in capital per unit of output but not a permanent rise in investment flows.
So business pays less, but there is only a one-time “big bang” for society for this gift. Or maybe not - there’s not even any proof, according to Smart.
Of course, the pattern shown only suggests the possible effects of sales-tax reform, and many other factors may have caused the rise in relative investment rates in HST provinces. For example, the rise may be due to a general rise in economic growth in the HST provinces, rather than in investment per se; it may be due to long-term trends in the HST provinces unrelated to the reform; and it may be due to changes in the relative cost of capital there that have nothing to with taxes. Certainly, investment in Newfoundland has risen with the development in recent years of the offshore oil sector.
So business wins, people are displaced by machinery, and government loses unless it forks more tax dollars over to business.
Furthermore, when firms have market power and consumers are not fully informed about taxes, it may be reasonable to suppose that business markups rise when hidden taxes on business inputs are replaced by explicit taxes on consumers (Chetty, Looney, and Kroft 2006)
So consumers lose too.
zalm
2 years ago
Horsefeathers Part IV
The empirical strategy of examining changes in consumer prices after the reform was also employed by Murrell and Yu (2000). The present analysis differs from theirs chiefly by incorporating measures of changes... in order to control for nationwide factors unrelated to the reform that may have affected price inflation after 1997. One such factor is monetary policy. From July 1997, when the reform took effect, until the latter half of 2000, the bank rate rose from 3.25 to 6 percent — a change that may well have impeded price growth in all provinces.
So the supposed benefit to consumers - lower prices - may have actually been brought about by a rise in the Bank of Canada rate, not by easing the tax burden on businesses at all! Well, the Fraser Institution always told us so, even if we didn’t believe ‘em....
To make those comparisons, I obtained from Statistics Canada’s Input-Output division estimates of the effective tax rates on consumer purchases of goods and services under all provinces’ RSTs in 1996. Overall, CPI prices fell by about 0.3 percent in HST provinces after 1997... in all categories but one (Transportation, where prices rose despite a decline in taxes).
Particularly notable, perhaps, are the estimated 1.4 percent price increase for Shelter, reflecting the extension of the tax base to include purchases of new houses, and 1.5 percent price increase for Clothing and Footwear, which also likely reflects the broader base of the HST. Since expenditure shares for these categories tend to be larger for low-income households, this suggests the possibility that the reform was regressive in that it raised average prices for low-income households while lowering prices overall.
Just in case you missed it the first time, Smart repeats it two more times - poor consumers lose, implying that wealthy consumers get a tax break too along with business.
Of course, broadening the base to include new-home purchases, in the context of a revenue-neutral harmonization, would increase the visible taxes paid by some consumers. This shift in statutory burdens is usually regarded as a major obstacle to such a reform... Overall, consumer prices in the harmonizing provinces fell with the reform, although prices rose somewhat for shelter and clothing and footwear, and that fact tended to make the reform slightly regressive.
zalm
2 years ago
Bafflegab - the conclusion
Smart then goes on in the appendix to note that the Hall-Jorgensen User Cost of Capital (which is a Department of Finance calculation based on the relative sizes of industries in each province) skews the results still further, so that the benefits of the HST are further reduced unless you apply fudge factors. His math is dense and impenetrable to someone like me who failed Econ 100 three times in the past, but his conclusions are stark. In Manufacturing, the estimated effect of the HST reform is a 20.3 percent increase in machinery and equipment investment when the UCC is excluded from the regression, but a mere 2.3 percent when it is included.
To listen to the shills for Gordo and Colin Hansen is bad enough, never mind the press releases the local media such as Harvey Enchin pass off as “informed analysis”, but when ordinary people with ordinary brains start regurgitating the same nonsense without question or qualification, it’s time to take them out to the woodshed, and I don’t mean for a smoke.
Ronald Pagan, consider yourself spanked by an economist. And I don’t mean me.
morechatter
2 years ago
Whose Telling Those Lies
Do all politicians lie? Maybe. It all depends what the lies are about, or is it? I'm not certain is it like a Doctor telling you this isn't going to hurt because we know it is and are we going to feel better after? That is the problem after everything is said and done the average British Columbian who pays a good 76 % of their wages on mortgage payments will disagree saying it should be the other way around. And how do you get blood from a stone isn't that like taking money from those who just don't got any to spare?
jim1966
2 years ago
HST/GST Rebates As Per Stephanie T Enquiry
Okay, the HST/GST credit. There are some things that a person or persons must do to qualify and get this benefit. The benefit is paid alongside the GST and Carbon Tax rebates every 3 months. In order that a person get the credit he or she MUST file their income taxes. You can also get more detailed information on the CRA website. Here is an example based on a single person with no kids. Your GST credit will not change in July unless your income has reached the cut off limits. (Around $37,000 income yearly), Lets say for examples sake that every 3 months this person got $80.00 GST credit, In addition to this person would also get a carbon tax credit from BC, this amount in July will be around $27.00 also paid alongside the HST/GST rebate. With the HST this example would get another $57.50 alongside the 2 credits. So in total this person every 3 months would get a total of $164.50 every three months. Please bear in mind that this is just an example and that people should check the CRA website. This in no way changes my opinion of the HST. If you are on social assistance or PPMB or PWD these credits are not deducted from your benefits. In other words you get to keep 100% of your credits. The credits are usually direct deposited on the 5th of the issuing months with the new "cycle" beginning in July and Oct and Jan And April. Hope that this bit of info helps.If any of the info is incorrect I apologize in advance.
cheers
jim1966
jim1966
crankypants
2 years ago
One man's opinion
First of all, I would also offer my condolences to Bill on the passing of his mother to lung cancer. My father succumbed to the same disease in 2004 and I still miss him each and every day.
The proponents of the HST make all kinds of claims regarding to more jobs and reductions in prices for most things. The problem is that they never seem to provide any documented proof to these claims. Quebec and most of the maritime provinces have had the HST for over 10 years, so there must be a plethora of data to be mined from their experiences with the HST. I know if I was trying to sell an idea and there was tangible proof available to support my claims, then I would be trotting out all relevant data. All we are getting is theoretical mumbo jumbo.
One more thing to ponder is do companies start a business to create employment or to gain monetarily, be they a mom and pop endeavor or a multi-national conglomerate? Joe/Jane six-pack may get to vote every so often, but it is the CEO's of the business world that are able to gain the ear of government either through lobbyists or financial support of said government.
rantnic
2 years ago
CAMERO 409/BACK UP
I'm also working for the FightHST Initiative and seeing our MLA friends making the best political hay of it, one would think that there would be a definite commitment to get rid of the HST. The next time you see your NDP MLA, (likely at a photo op) ask him to give you a letter on his official letterhead, stating that he will definitely vote to get rid of the HST. I'm betting you won't see our friend offering anything that may, in the future go against the presently unrevealed "Party Policy". Even better, we should try to get Ms. James to make a recorded commitment to rescind the HST if elected. Remember, these are politicians we are talking about, and "their word" is "their bond". Just ask "Gordo".
realisticman
2 years ago
Frank
You say that some countries are thinking of lowering their VAT. Which ones? I see that Germany is thinking of raising theirs and Portugal has just hiked theirs by 1%. Greece just Topped out with a 4% increase to 23% - almost double what BC will have in a few days!
I will agree with you that lower taxes do encourage consumer spending and help promote our consumption society. Some do say say that we consume too much.
G West
2 years ago
Thank you zalm
Pretty comprehensive spanking I'd say...I hope everyone takes the time to read this and then, if they haven't already done so, goes out and finds a petition to sign.
Sockeye
2 years ago
zalm
"""it is axiomatic in economics that investing more in capital causes more workers to lose their jobs. That is the purpose of investing in capital."""
But the HST supporters are making that claim out the Ying-Yang, companies save, invest back into the compnay more jobs created.
Stephanie T
2 years ago
@Jim1966
Thanks for the info. I still find it hard to believe they will give an HST rebate alongside the GST rebate.
Fiat lux
2 years ago
Investment doesn't
Investment doesn't automatically "create" jobs and overcapitalization is the cause of the biggest job losses, part time jobs and lousy wages.
Years ago any investment over one wage year into a job was considered ovwercapitalization. Today many jobs have 60-70 wage years of investment and some up to 100.
Which means that the servicing of the capital eats up most of the benefits and people become superfluous.
Especially by "wealth creating foreign investors" who bring nothing to this country, apart from non existing, imaginary monetary capital, much of it "created" from the air by Canadian banks, while stealing us blind.
Ed Deak, Big Lake,.
Tieleman
2 years ago
Thanks from Bill Tieleman
Thanks for the kind comments about the passing of my mother - they are most appreciated. I am very sorry to hear from Tangler about his wife's newly-diagnosed lung cancer - my heart goes out to you and your wife. There are treatments that can slow this cancer and I hope she is able to take them. Our family was unfortunate that Pat was stricken with cancer but lucky that we had a chance to say goodbye and be with her till the end.
Fiat lux
2 years ago
Our deepest sympathy
Our deepest sympathy !
Starting with a colon cancer operation last year Feb. I ended up with
Fiat lux
2 years ago
Apologies, these things are
Apologies, these things are very upsetting and I pushed the wrong button.
Last year I had 5 operations, 44 days in the hospital, 3 weeks on life support without a bite to eat or a mouthful of water, lost 40 lbs. So I know what it means for the victim and the family.
But we have to consider, what the causes are. 50 odd years ago the cancer rate was 2% of the population and no children had any cancers.
Today it is 30-40% and no end in sight, without any effort by politicians or the public to find out what and who is poisoning people.
Ed Deak.
zalm
2 years ago
sockeye
"""it is axiomatic in economics that investing more in capital causes more workers to lose their jobs. That is the purpose of investing in capital."""
But the HST supporters are making that claim out the Ying-Yang, companies save, invest back into the compnay more jobs created.
Then they should read an economics text. Capital displaces workers at the lower end of the employment ladder, "freeing them to seek employment higher up the employment ladder" in the quaint words of the libertarian. That people may not be at all qualified for anything higher up the employment ladder is not the problem of the business that invested in capital, or anyone else, to hear some tell it.
My Lipsey, Sparks and Steiner still gets a workout every month as I look up some aspect or other that I've long forgotten. They have a whole separate section on human capital, which is basically education and training, another principle and economic sphere gutted by the libertarian bagmen who've been warming places in our Parliament for the past few decades.
That text's a classic, along with Samuelson's. Anybody attending UBC in the '70s or '80s would have a copy holding up one side of their student desk for years afterwards.
zalm
2 years ago
GWest
Thanks G - After asking my friend Don the business accountant for proof, we sat down one night and reviewed our texts over a bottle of wine, and found a lot that surprised both of us.
Camero409
2 years ago
rantnic
I guess if you voted LIbERal last time you wouldn't trust politicians. Afterall these guy have lied since day one. I've worked on NDP campaigns since 1972 and have found overall the NDP to live up to their promises more so than the other parties. I will ask the MLA that is working on this with me and I will report it here.
On another subject, I see Hansen is offering a bribe to us to back off the HST campaign. What a laugh!
G West
2 years ago
Maybe Jeff Simpson should drop round here for a read
After the Campbell hagiography he penned for the Globe today...he could also learn a little about 'economists' opinions and what they're worth as well.
zalm
2 years ago
Good idea, GW
I told him. Let's see what he says.
zalm
2 years ago
Well said, fiat lux
Investment doesn't automatically "create" jobs and overcapitalization is the cause of the biggest job losses, part time jobs and lousy wages.
Years ago any investment over one wage year into a job was considered ovwercapitalization. Today many jobs have 60-70 wage years of investment and some up to 100.
The only quibble I would have is your following statement that job losses are inevitable. I suggest they are transferred to where the capital is made. We are outsourcing the benefits of our over-capitalization to the detriment of our country's economy, and the new-car-salesmen who run our country don't get it. Who will buy their cars?
Interestingly, I've never heard that statistic on over-capitalization before. Back to the Lipsey, Sparks and Steiner this weekend....
Servicing also provides some jobs, especially where capital is employed to replace non-repetitive functions such as with Accenture's contract for our health records, but such servicing is inevitably at a lower education and economic level than the jobs formerly employing people.
Sigh. The more educated some people get, the more difficult it is to get through to them. They, like teenagers, are born knowing so much.....
Fiat lux
2 years ago
Zalm, job losses are
Zalm, job losses are inevitable, because the present fraudulent definition of economic efficiency, as the biggest profits for the least monetary inputs.
This fraud encourages and mandates the replacement of 1/2 horsepower of human energy with tens or even hundreds of hp of other forms of energy inputs, like oil and electricity, causing incredible damage to the economy and humanity.
In the warped minds of economists human labour is "inefficient", although it doesn't cost any extra energy inputs into the economy.
As long as we have the present criminal, neoclassical monetary economic theory ruling our lives, things will only and always get worse until a final self destruction.
The tragicomical part is that millions of people are stripped of their properties, possessions and human rights in the name of the "property rights" of a self imposed cadre and the economy is collectivized in the best Soviet style, albeit not with bayonets, but with the perceived power of non existing, imaginary capital "created" from the air for the purpose of economic globalized kolkhozification.
Look up who and how many corporations are now controlling the world's food supplies, destroying farmers, while stealing the forcibly urbanized public blind in the supermarkets they also control. All in the name of "competitive free enterprise" and "property rights".
When will people realize that economic competition doesn't reduce, but increases costs, as we can see it in the stores every day, because the competition is for higher profits to please the stockmarkets..
Ed Deak.
farmboy
2 years ago
Something doesn't add up
Math was never my best subject but something about HST doesn't quite add up. The government gets the same 1.9 billion that it does now. Business pays 1.9 billion less than it does now. Consumers will save the 1.9 billion they pay when the companies pass on the 1.9 billion they saved to the consumers. It should follow then that the way to increase Government revenue is to double the PST portion of the HST. The government then gets 3.8 billion. They pass it along to business who in turn lower the cost of their goods and services to consumers to the point that it has the net effect of cancelling the increased tax. Should it not therefore be possible to raise the tax to 100%, give it all to business who will then provide their goods and services to consumers for free? Think of the consumer demand and jobs that will create!
While we"re all waiting for this HST miracle to unfold I"m heading down to the bullpen to spread a few more loads of conservative economic theory on the back forty>
myworld2
2 years ago
Third World
It seems that our conservative/liberal gov'ts wish us to become another third world economy. You know, those places we love to visit because they are so inexpensive. Sure, we like to visit, but we do not choose to live there.
I think that high progressive income taxes and modest user fees for optional gov't services deliver the most balanced and equitable economic results. A trong labour movement demands wages that enable a standard of living in spite of high tax rates while strengthening the middle class. A substancial public sector mellows the ups and downs of market conditions. We need to stop viewing 'taxes' as a curse, rather, they are a means to achieving mutual goals.
The HST is the wrong tax.
Fiat lux
2 years ago
Interesting to read Cariboo
Interesting to read Cariboo MLA Donna Barnett's blurbs in the local papers, gushing on how much industry is going to "save" with the HST.
But she never mentions where and how the losses incurred by these "savings" will be replaced and who will pay for them?
She got her job by 88 votes and I hope the recall campaign planned against her will be successful.
Ed Deak.
jim1966
2 years ago
Re: Stephanie T Question
Yep, basically the structure of this credit sort of goes like this: HST Credit + GST Credit + Carbon Tax Rebate = Benefit Amount. The HST portion of this (based on a single person no kids example) would be $230.00 per year. This amount divided by 4 payments would be $57.50. Again as a nice reminder please check with the CRA website or call Revenue Canada for more info. On another note, It still amazes me how Mr Campbell treats us the voters with indifference and arrogance. It is quite clear that he no longer even respects the majority's wishes in the province. In my own distaste of this government I shall return the sentiment during the recall campaign in November. Not that for a second do I personally believe that he even really cares about recall either. It will be if not lively for the BC Liberals over the summer and I bet that some MLA's will be on the hot seat as opposed to BBQ's.
Frank
2 years ago
realisticman
The country I had heard doing so was France. I looked it up and they dropped their VAT on restaurant meals from 19.6% to 5.5%.
Lower prices on the other hand were not exactly passed on to the consumer as restaurant prices only fell 1.17%.
Meanwhile restaurant employment rose by 5,200 jobs in spite of general unemployment in France increasing.
Michael Campbell and our friend Ronald would of course claim neither of these outcomes could have happened.
Michael would say that competition would ensure that lower prices would have resulted and Ronald would claim a higher VAT means increased employment, not a lower one.
I guess the French didn't read the same economic texts.
Ronald Pagan
2 years ago
Two takes
Interesting that Zalm would use the exact paper to disprove my arguments that I would use to prove them.
I respect that you wrote such a long argument but remained unconvinced in the selective quoting of the article absent of its general conclusions to prove your own point.
In his regression analysis, Smart says that HST reform helped spur an estimated 26% increase in investment for the Forestry, Fishing and Agriculture sectors. Regardless if this investment is for capital or labour that is significant and would benefit BC, especially rural areas.
The economic arguments for a VAT are supported by Smart in his article. I would urge everyone to read it.
Most of your criticisms are bound up in the estimations and other jumps that are required in the silly science. That's fine. Those are legitimate but I find that they obfuscate from the point. Doing a scientific analysis of any social area is impossible. That doesn't mean we still shouldn't try to do our best.
The one legitimate critique is regressivity. However I think that a VAT could be pursued and other policy mechanisms, rebates, more social support could go to address those non-trivial side-effects.
Ultimately, I am not a free-market zealot or libertarian. I am a very concerned BC resident who is seeing the economy eroding away from producing things. I think this is a recipe for long-term decline and worse. If implementing an efficient tax system is one step to getting back to producing real things then I'm all for it.
I just hate to see the arguments split in the tired and faulty dichotomies of corporations/citizens. Tax burdens are passed through the value chains to the end consumer no matter what. Taxing the inputs and actors at their most efficient point should be a priority. I jsut want to end this garrison approach to economic policy on the left.
Frank
2 years ago
realisticman
One other thing, when France reduced its VAT on restaurant meals average salaries among restaurant workers also increased.
For a better world
2 years ago
Watch for the Spin of HST Supporters
I don't whether others have noticed that many commodities have recently increased well above the fallacious inflation index.
Although most of my observations are anecdotal, a couple of my preferred BC wines have increased by 16% during the past few months. Price-wise some of these wines have been replaced by foreign blends, "bottled in BC".
I also expect some of those BC vinters, who support the HST, might not increase their prices by the full amount of the tax increase. Their spin will be that they will give their consumers a break; however, they likely have already factored the HST into their current priciing.
realisticman
2 years ago
Frank
No question, selective tax cutting does have benefits.
I can't see why the cost of meals should have come down since the high VAT was on the final bill, not on the ingredients and other expenses restauranteur's were incurring. The VAT was simply the government's take on the final tab.
Yet another feather in the cap of Stephen Harper and the Conservatives for lowering the GST, as I'm now sure that you will agree.
G West
2 years ago
Ronald Pagan
Seems to me it's pretty clear YOU didn't understand the study; didn't take the time to differentiate between 'real' results and hypothesized ones and, in the end, you still can't explain why a regressive tax isn't always a wrong move from a societal point of view.
As for your point about human/corporate dichotomies I think you've lost the plot.
I'll happily treat corporations like humans when the law gives them the same rights, privileges and responsibilities that human beings have.
That's the problem with corporate law and governance - it creates a perfect hiding place and nursery for the sociopath. Which is why there are so many of them in the corporate hiercarchy.
I'd suggest you read Snakes in Suits: When Psychopaths Go to Work by Paul Babiak & Robert D. Hare.
And then have a close look at the behavior of the current CEO of BP for an excellent example of what the book talks about.
Frank
2 years ago
realisticman
Why do you keep trying to hit me over the head with that GST reduction when I've said a hundred times I'd like to see the GST abolished altogether?
What would be hypocritical is for anyone to support the the GST reduction and the HST.
realisticman
2 years ago
Franlk
It may not be everything you wanted but you obviously praise Stephen Harper for reducing the GST by 28.5%.
zalm
2 years ago
Ronald Pagan
"Interesting that Zalm would use the exact paper to disprove my arguments that I would use to prove them. "
Which probably says more about the paper than it does about either one of us.
"I respect that you wrote such a long argument but remained unconvinced in the selective quoting of the article absent of its general conclusions to prove your own point."
I had to quote selectively. I couldn't make the whole thing come down on one side or the other, what with vague generalizations standing in for "facts", leading to firm conclusions. The dismal science usually does better than this, quantitatively speaking.
The main point he makes clearly is that for a two-year period after implementation, business will have a "tax holiday" (for want of a better phrase) on business inputs which will allow them to invest in capital. He offers no proof anywhere that business plans to do this, or that business has done this anywhere else, relying on other studies to hopefully do so, but quoting them in the breach, rather than the observance.
My experience is that corporations that get tax holidays (such as bailouts) do not engage in competitive strategies such as investing in capital, or even in beneficient practices such as labour training (which are more often ruinous to short-term shareholder value than not), but instead use the funds to reduce competition by buying out competitors or buying back shareholder equity for additional leverage. Occasionally, they will set up production lines outside the country. Thanks very much for that, Magna.
Nowhere does Smart categorically state that employment opportunities will open up or general employment will rise as a result of dropping the retail sales taxes, and he is right to. Economic theory doesn't support it. Further, he feels that his estimates show the tax will be regressive in nature. I think he's right there too, even if he arrived at his conclusions backwards (see Table 3 - "implied elasticity" indeed!! Elasticity is the base variable in these calculations, not the dependent one.)
But politicians, and those that quote them persist in maintaining these myths at full volume in what passes for debate in this province. And not one of our so-called "qualified commentators" has taken them to task on either matter.
And yet when others like me do it, we get shit? That's insulting. You wanna call it a garrison mentality? Just think for a moment about what kind of artillery shells I had to throw just to get half a debate going on these pages. That's what it's gonna take out there in the real world where the demonization is automatic, swift, and equates 1990s NDP with communism having left the province in flames only a few moments ago.
If the drawbridge against intellectual inquiry has been pulled up anywhere, it's over in the neoliberal citadel. And it doesn't even serve business particularly well, so why isn't it being stormed?