More Left Wing CRAP

Oooohhhh those scary right wing religious zealots, elect them and there goes abortion, there goes gay marriage, blah, blah blah.
The Canadian people are too smart to get sucked into the lefts 'hidden agenda' mantra, used to disguise the fact they have nothing to offer the Canadian voter, except more of the same old same old.
Frankly, the Conservatives are no more zealous about religion than any of the other Godless parties in our country.
I say that to our shame.

Pig Oil Alliance

I wonder if Pig Oil and other giant corps are donating big time to Harpo's church and in exchange the church encourages members to donate to the Theocons.

Good way around campaign finance limits.

93% Cons are religious nutballs

Before the previous parliaments dissolution theocon Ken Epp's private members bill c-484 Unborn Victims of Crime Act a thinly disguised anti abortion measure received second reading with the 93% support from Harpers social conservatives.

Canwest takeover and more Marci

I wonder who the shadowy investors behind the right wing takeover of Canwest were?

More from Marci

http://www.thestar.com/news/insight/article/806535--how-canada-s-christian-right-was-built

I"M SERIOUS

So much so, that after the extradition of Marc Emery (and without so much as a cow plop on THIS "progressive" website I might add) that I joined the NDP.

Of course it only takes $10 to join the NDP ($1 if you are un(der)employed) but money well spent and I threw in a campaign contribution along with it. And I am fully prepared to knock on doors in the next election - anything it takes for us to remove our incumbent conservative asshole (and I 'm just talking about our MP).

The only reason I've been reticent about donating to a political party is that I already give monthly to conservation and international aid. But I'm fighting mad now and I encourage all you other bloggers to take positive action to divest your constituency of your incumbent asshole.

Some more fuel for the fire regarding our very own McMini-Bush:

http://communities.canada.com/vancouversun/blogs/thesearch/archive/2008/09/10/why-stephen-harper-keeps-his-evangelicalism-very-private.aspx

On a more serious note.

For me the issues becomes clearer when reading the works of Robin Meyers. Fundamentalists of any stripe are deluded fanatics. Here is a link http://www.mayflowerucc.org/listening/PeaceMarchSpeech112004.pdf

don't get too smug fundies.

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Bush/Palin/Harper

There's no difference between Bush, Palin and Harper. They are right wing religious zealots and they don't want to be labeled that way in the public perception even though it's true. They prefer to continue to lie about their agenda. That makes them hypocrites who will do or say anything to gain power in order to force their religious beliefs on the rest of the country. They are political whores just like all the rest of the politicians. The only difference is that the Conservatives want to destroy democracy and replace it with theocracy. But wait a minute! That's what the Conservatives are accusing the Muslims of doing isn't it?

Phony Polarization

Having watched the US go through years of abortion rights fights while the country was stolen and the Empire spread, I have no wish to see it happen here.

The Liberals fished abortion out of our past to score points. It does not seem to have worked. The NDP is tied with the Libs at +-17%. The Cons are only around 28%. Nobody really likes any of them, so asking us to support them with funds is ridiculous.

When the NDP and the Libs drop the AGW fraud, I'll re-think my position, but I can't support people who buy into and push a scam.

Christian & Missionary Alliance and a notorious cult

"the Christian and Missionary Alliance where Preston Manning, Harper and Day all attend"

The CMA gave birth to one of the most notorious cults around, the Children of God, now known as The Family International. The documentary, All God's Children, details extreme child abuse by CMA missionaries in Africa. I wrote a blog review of that documentary. I point out the connection and similarities between the church and the cult, which includes not only severe, religiously-motivated child abuse, but many of the issues Dobbin points out in his article. You can read my review of that documentary and find other related articles about that cult at:
http://www.perrybulwer.com/chain-the-dogma/2009/12/22/child-sacrifice-a-review-of-the-documentary-all-gods-childre.html

Maybe not, Skywalker

...although this time it'll be the socialists who'll be doing the throwing. But let's not bicker about degrees of beliefs, it's all politics and them lion's are hungry!

r'man

So how many of your family were fed to lions by the godless NDP back in the 1990s?

Probably the same number as jimorsheryl's family and cboo44's family.

Not that it didn't stop any of you three from preaching that the end was nigh if welfare rates were raised.

nightbloom

Paul Wells is a Conservative so he would say that wouldn't he?

Quoting a right-wing columnist doesn't really deflect what the left-wing columnist says does it?

cboo44

You're right, and George Bush II was never president of the US.

time to stand up for our right

to Freedom From Religion. Enough of their ignorant bullying, lying, backstabbing and organized crime syndicates. All organized religions suck. I'm sick to bloody death of having their gang-signs thrown in my face every day. Just like Bloods and Crips with their colours, bikers with their jacket patches so also are all religious symbols. Crucifixes, stars, crescents, absurd haircuts and silly clothing, they all serve no other purpose than to intimidate non-cultists and to signal gang-alliance to fellow travelers.

We are living in a democracy and our first duty is to defend that democracy from the threat of tyranny from any direction.

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Nutty? You bet!

If someone who believes the Earth is 6,000 years old and denies the evolutionary process in favour of an invisible sky-daddy, as does Stockwell Day and his ilk, their political power should be constrained to the Ministry of Magical Thinking.

Their core priorities are NOT the protection and well-being of their constituents and the Country but rather, the perpetuation and fulfillment of an Iron-age Doom mythology as interpreted by a powerful fringe cadre of conservative, Fundamentalist ideologues.

If one substitutes the Islamic paradigm for the Christian theism in this discussion, the result is pretty much what the Taliban are all about.

Oppose these maroons, or risk waking up one morning in Canadistan.

bilgladstone

Apparently r'man, nightbloom, cboo44 and jimorsheryl don't believe in the Taliban.

They probably think the Taliban are some good old boys who just want lower taxes in Afghanistan and we've gone ahead and painted them with the "fundie" brush to make them look bad.

let your faith light the world

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r'man

So you're an advocate of slavery now or you're relieved to hear we don't do that anymore?

frank

I'm glad your leader's church no longer supports slavery. Quite enlightened, I'd have to admit; especially important when one considers that Jack Layton hopes to be, yeah verily, expects to be, Prime Minister of Canada.

" So going into the next election you believe the office of Prime Minister is within your grasp?

LAYTON: Yes. "

Going to have to go a bit north of 16% Jack.

r'man

"I'm glad your leader's church no longer supports slavery"

That bothers you? I guess I'm sorry to hear your leader still does. But not surprised.

Should turn your calendar to 2010 r'man

"Jack Layton of the New Democratic Party (NDP) is now the best-ranked federal party leader in Canada, according to a poll by Angus Reid Public Opinion. 29 per cent of respondents approve of Layton’s performance, up three points since February.

The approval rating for Canadian prime minister and Conservative Party leader Stephen Harper stands at 26 per cent, down two points in a month. 15 per cent of respondents approve of the way Liberal and Official Opposition leader Michael Ignatieff is handling his duties, also down two points in a month. "

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/layton_surpasses_harper_in_canada/

Just to help you with that, the poll means the leader of the forces of darkness, that would be your guy, is trailing the leader of the forces of light and goodness by 3%.

Paul Wells brooks no criticism of religion, esp Evangelicals

here is my email to Wells and Coyne - who knows if they got it, but Wells hs banned me from Macleans comment board. Today he has a nominal article on science as a way to cover his deep-rooted hatred of religious criticism, especially for evangelicals.

" You know Paul,

I think you've improved quite a bit since you started at Macleans, however your credibility on this issue is rather suspect given you banned me and my little computer from commenting on anything in Macleans because I had the temerity to make some global comment about evangelicals - the exact same thing we see everyday at Maclean's and other media outlets where blanket condemnations of Liberals or NDP parties or whatever occurs frequently.

The only difference is that I went after a religious affiliation versus a political affiliation.

Unban me sir, otherwise you are very tainted and biased against any criticism of religious belief - indeed your jihad against me continues to kill me, as it were.

Is this the face of Christianity you represent? Banning and censoring critics?

I note also that often fundamentalists save their most vituperative attacks for female critics though I do not see you as a fundamentalist, I am disturbed at the many attacks on this women and the absolute paucity of evidence against her thesis - tiny little picayune elements may be misinterpreted but the central thesis is clear for all to see - the abortion change in our foreign policy, the punishment is the only way attitude and the fact that Toews and others have stated explicitly "we don't need evidence" we have (w/30% of the previous vote) "the will of Canadians".

Those of us of sound mind and body can see the ratcheting towards a fundamentalist dogma being forced upon everyone through pain of the law.

Unban me or all those words you wrote are simply bafflegab to cover your own intolerance to criticism of religious bigotry.

Sincerely, "

r'man

To win the next election I suggest you appeal to the 7% that call themselves "Greens". Most of them are probably ex-Conservatives and you should find fertile ground there for your "the-private-sector-and-prayer-will-save-the-world" bullshit.

Have Faith

yourself and do not use the State to force everyone else to believe, think and act in exactly what you believe.

Those seeking to punish those who do not have the same beliefs are simply bigots and thugs. The critics of Marci McDonald fall exactly into this category.

MichaelT

Unfortunately hypocrites like Paul Wells and their fan club which I guess includes nightbloom are not going to un-ban you.

Over at Macleans you pretty have to declare dinosaurs to be a myth before they let you in the door.

Which probably explains why their circulation is what it is now, so far down from the old days. No wonder they keep sending me free issues in hopes of finding a new subscriber.

They Ain't "Christian"

They may as well admit they took crap like this right out of Mein Kampf.
http://www.harpercollins.com/books/9780061692666/The_Rise_of_the_Fourth_Reich/index.aspx

Yes, Athens was a democracy - but not for the slaves

It's not that I am AGAINST religion, it's just that the New Testament says something about the hypocrites standing in church praying loudly. Here's the thing: I have my own beliefs but they don't require me to attend a state-sanctioned church and pray loudly with all the other hypocrites.

And now here is what I DO have against evangelicalism: If you have not accepted Jesus Christ as your Personal Saviour under the guidance of the Orthodox Alliance Church or other approved evangelical organization, then you are "lost". And as one of the "lost", you have the semi-human status of one destined for eternal hellfire and deserve everything that you have coming to you in payment for your sinful ways.

It's not JUST that the Alliance fundies are against abortion or same-sex marriage - they are against everyone who doesn't belong to an officially approved denomination. Democracy, yes - but only if you've been washed clean in the Blood of the Lamb.

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How dare Harper and his 'flock' call themselves Christian

... when they have deliberately supported and legalized Ethnic Cleansing in Canada! How dare they distort and remove over 2.5 MILLION Canadians from Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedoms! How dare they 'look the other way' while 2.5 Million English speaking Quebeckers - with a 400 year HISTORY in the Province of Quebeck - are being ERASED out of existence in Quebec!
How dare ANY Canadian Politician - get in BED with Gilles Duceppe and the BLOC - a party bent on destroying Canada - which by the way - they are doing beyond belief!

And for all you Harper devotees - how dare you allow this? How dare you let us be thrown to the wolves while your leader - befriends and vigorously supports the BLOC, the PQ and these days the Provincial Liberal Party - determined to get those English Devils and their culture out of Quebec? How dare you all - look the other way and say and do nothing. Wait my friends - the SAME will reach your doorstep before you know it. What then?

DidiM ...

Huh?

takuan

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Wanna rethink that? It's not up to your usual standard.

Frank Your conclusions are a mystery

FRANK: how in the world do you come to the conclusions you are crediting to my thinking based on what I said?
What you are saying makes NO sense to me at all. Care to explain??

Didn't think so.

"So how many of your family were fed to lions by the godless NDP back in the 1990s?

Probably the same number as jimorsheryl's family and cboo44's family.

Not that it didn't stop any of you three from preaching that the end was nigh if welfare rates were raised."

"Apparently r'man, nightbloom, cboo44 and jimorsheryl don't believe in the Taliban.

They probably think the Taliban are some good old boys who just want lower taxes in Afghanistan and we've gone ahead and painted them with the "fundie" brush to make them look bad."

Zalm.... you confuse a little?

Your comment:

"You, on the other hand, have more of the flavour of the Christ-like in you. I invite you to re-examine your political and social allegiances with a critical and sober eye."

Perhaps you presume I am allied to the Conservatives? I did not say that. The Lib? Didn't say that either. The NDP? Didn't say that either.

IMHO we are all in the glue, where we have blindly gone by making the error of following after men.

jimorsheryl

Go back and read what you wrote in the post with the friendly title "More Left Wing CRAP" and then tell me in what way you feel you've been slighted.

Care to do that? I didn't think so.

we have blindly gone by making the error of following after men.

You are right! We should be followng after women.

Jesus who?

For those who regurgitate the attributes and characteristics of a "Jesus" character, you might want to do a little research. It is more likely than not that no such person ever existed. During the time of his "alleged" life, there was not one word recorded or mentioned of him anywhere - and this during a time when the Romans were fastidious record keepers. All we have are wonder stories from primitive, superstious, pre-scientific desert people, written decades after his "alleged" death. And then the whole cult got a massive push forward by Constantine making it the official State religion.

http://www.pocm.info/

http://www.bandoli.no/

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/

http://www.pointofinquiry.org/robert_m_price_jesus_the_failed_hypothesis/

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/jesus_myth_history.htm

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/jesus_myth_followup.htm

Skywalker

If Jesus were to materialize in society today, I am confident He would trucked off to Guantanamo...... such is the way of today's "Christian" leadership.

CF1

But Skywalker's description of Jesus is a pleasant thought though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Canticle_for_Leibowitz
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Name_of_the_Rose

Sorry CF1, I think you are wrong.

There are historical accounts in ancient Greek and Roman writings. The accounts of Josephus being one. That he existed is verified so is the method and reason for his persecution. As are the persecutions in the Roman Colliseum verified. A lot of the rest and the claims is handed down in oral history and subject to inaccuracy. Tthe writings were only documented in the second century. Much of what the modern day religious groups use, at least the ones that selectively use his teachings or make their own interpretations of what he actually said, is self-serving mind controlling doctrine.

All of which really means is that Christian fundamentalists who are firm in their belief that they know everything and are following his teachings are way out there. In politics they are just as dangerous as the Taliban.

Skywalker

Kind causes one to wonder just who decided which texts to use in compiling the Bible, and what was their "methodology"..........
I think the right-wing fundies would have loved this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian_Crusade

Right RickW.

A lot of that is covered in books by John Dominic Crossan and L. Michael White. There is a great book written by Robin A. Meyers called Saving Jesus from the Church that makes it all relevant in very readable and today's language.

O.K it's time to move on...

Skywalker

I'd just like to offer the observation that many scholars on this subject believe that the passage in the writings of Josephus were added later, and not by Josephus himself. I've read the passage myself and it sticks out like a sore thumb from the rest of the text.

I believe it was a recent Canadian author that wrote the book claiming that Jesus never existed but unfortunately I haven't read it.

There may be other evidence, the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hammadi books come to mind immediately but I wouldn't accept the passage in Josephus as such.

Frank ??????

I did not say I felt slighted. You seem to assume much from a few words.
"Be very afraid of those right wing zealots, they won't let gays marry nor women kill their babies", is the mantra of the left wing, which I feel is just CRAP designed to frighten people into voting for them. They are every bit a frightening as the right wing zealots IMHO.
Sorry, Frank, I don't fit your box.

Was Jesus Really Who Christians Say He Was??

The truth is, one can never know the Truth, unless the Truth reveals Himself to you.
Debating whether or not GOD is real, is really a foolish argument.

jimorsheryl

And its your view of the world that I find "frightening".

Fortunately, at least in this province, people seem to be turning the lights out on your right-wing philosophy, what with having to live with it for the last 9 years.

jimorsheryl

"Perhaps you presume I am allied to the Conservatives? I did not say that. The Lib? Didn't say that either. The NDP? Didn't say that either."

Jeez, I can't imagine where I would have gotten that from....
http://thetyee.ca/Views/2009/05/04/BCRail/

Your bona fides are well established. Apparently you hold your nose a lot while voting, but you still vote for the worst party out there.

Please have the decency to be honest about your prejudices, and not blame them on your imaginary friend. I don't, yet I do my best to keep God's anabaptist spirit alive on Sundays too, although perhaps you might not recognize it.

"IMHO we are all in the glue, where we have blindly gone by making the error of following after men."

The only problem with the alternative you propose is that theocracy forever fails to recognize theodicy until it falls off the cliff with it. RickW, with his usual aplomb, pointed us in the direction of the Beast - "weaponized Christianity" the man called it.

http://www.harpers.org/archive/2009/05/0082488

Nice one, RickW.

PS

This is a red herring, but...

"The truth is, one can never know the Truth, unless the Truth reveals Himself to you."

Where on earth in Scripture does it say that?

Enough

Enough about this Jesus person. Let's talk about Robin Hood. I understand that the new revisionist film staring Russell Crowe makes Him out to be a libertarian freemarketeer. The True and Revealed Robin Hood was clearly a Wobblie! Joe Hill told me so in a dream last night.

Zalm ...

That is not a red herring.
There are many people who 'believe' they believe the Bible and what it says about Jesus.
However, the only way to KNOW is if the Spirit of Truth reveals it to you. That is all a part of the being born again from above experience.
There is much difference.

Zalm,, there you go again

"Your bona fides are well established. Apparently you hold your nose a lot while voting, but you still vote for the worst party out there."

Lets be perfectly honest, this is YOUR opinion about being the worst party, and not necessarily gospel truth, right? Unless you claim divine insight in these matters.

The Conservative (IMHO) are the least worst, of the alternatives. They all have learned well from the Libs, that if you ever hope to hold power in this country, you simply have to borrow enough money to keep buying peoples votes with programs we can not afford.

If you are going to argue we can afford them, where did that huge deficit come from?

We are all fools, simply being led by other fools. In the end, where will we have been led?

jimorsheryl ...

Yes. Delusion, neuroses, and concommittant hallucinations sort of work that way.

Only in the sense that debating the existence of Bilbo Baggins is a foolish argument -- there are equal amounts of proof as to the existence of either.

Like most theists, you and only you know the real truth, even it if differs from the other 5 billion or so theists currently pottering about the planet.

All yee who would be free; jimorsheryl for the one true way! Yippee-ayai-kyai.

jimorsheryl

"If you are going to argue we can afford them, where did that huge deficit come from?"

Certainly not from wild and carefree spending on social programs. Even recently the government has had plenty of money to back our banks and give out a hundred billion in corporate tax cuts.

Direct business subsidies, infrastructure built for business, public lands handed over to business, frivolous business write-offs and tax cuts to high income earners have all continued without a hiccup.

The share of tax from corporations versus individuals has also fallen markedly. And we don't even have a number for what individuals are able to get away with behind the wall of corporate citizenship. Where a company can declare bankruptcy and leave the public to deal with the waste and mess it leaves behind.

So if there's a StatsCan report somewhere saying that social programs caused our debt by all means produce it.

@jimorsheryl

So that phrase isn't from scripture, correct?

The implication that it was is, therefore, a lie.

It's just your own daft opinion. Right?

You also appear to have misunderstood what zalm wrote.

Perhaps you need to read your original words - think about them - compare them to what you've said previously - and try to understand why you aren't making any sense.

As for the size of the deficit - it started to grow, comprehensively, with tax giveaways to businesses and individuals who - arguably - were not paying their share of the freight a generation ago. At least they were paying something AND, most of them actually provided some jobs into the bargain

You remember what it was like back then? When poverty was not rampant and there was some chance that people working for something like the equivalent of today's minimum wage had at least a chance of a decent life; when the streets weren't filled with homeless and I didn't have to spend every Saturday morning volunteering at a soup kitchen.

Perhaps the two of you should read a bit more deeply and get out a little more.

Things were better then - it's not hard to see why.

In those days, 70% of every dollar of GDP wasn't little more than pin money for the financial gambling industry. This is the world your avatars - your heroes - have given us and our children.

Please have the good grace to understand that and stop putting your faith in the sky pilot - there's work to be done.

The last thing...

Jesus would consider himself to be today is a Christian. Religion has so bastardized His message, His intent, that what we call Christianity today is nothing more than a political organization that occasionally takes time to pray. As near as I can see, religion and fundamentalism are about nothing more than total control of a population, using the threat of God at every opportunity.

As for praying for Israel...we're not talking the country of Israel here. When praying for Israel, we're supposed to be praying for "my PEOPLE Israel." His people Israel is anyone who believes in God...regardless of birth place, color, or any other identifiable trait. Not that religion wants us to know that, we wouldn't be so easily manipulated.

jimorsheryl

"There are many people who 'believe' they believe the Bible and what it says about Jesus.
However, the only way to KNOW is if the Spirit of Truth reveals it to you. That is all a part of the being born again from above experience.
There is much difference."

Perhaps you’re right. This isn’t a red herring. It speaks exactly to the issue - that because scripture says different things to different people at different times, it is not a reliable guide for everybody every where at all times. All those, both mighty and small, who have fallen away know that there is no difference. But I suspect from your last words that you would have it be so based on your own special revelation.

Scripture says a lot about people who heard Jesus and did not believe him.

John 5:37-40
And the Father who sent me has himself testified on my behalf. You have never heard his voice or seen his form, and you do not have his word abiding in you, because you do not believe him whom he has sent.

‘You search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that testify on my behalf. Yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

Paul had a lot to say about people who believed in Jesus in different ways.

1 Corinthians 1:10-13
Now I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you should be in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you, but that you should be united in the same mind and the same purpose. For it has been reported to me by Chloe’s people that there are quarrels among you, my brothers and sisters. What I mean is that each of you says, ‘I belong to Paul’, or ‘I belong to Apollos’, or ‘I belong to Cephas’, or ‘I belong to Christ.’ Has Christ been divided?

jimorsheryl - part II

Paul also pointed out that the revelation of God’s work to Man was complete in every time

Romans 1:20-21
Ever since the creation of the world his eternal power and divine nature, invisible though they are, have been understood and seen through the things he has made. So they are without excuse; for though they knew God, they did not honour him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their senseless minds were darkened.

But some, or perhaps even many fail to treat God’s revelation with respect and honour.

Romans 1:28-31
And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind and to things that should not be done. They were filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, craftiness, they are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, rebellious towards parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. They know God’s decree, that those who practise such things deserve to die—yet they not only do them but even applaud others who practise them.

But you are not to judge their revelation!

Romans 2:1
Therefore you have no excuse, whoever you are, when you judge others; for in passing judgement on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, are doing the very same things.

This is why Jesuits sent out among the First Nations hundreds of years ago acknowledged parts of native spirituality as revealed, yet educated them to a spiritual foundation to incorporate it into Christian belief. Would you judge their revelation? Or their work?

jimorsheryl - part III

Your “born again from above” statement lacks a firm physical, spiritual or moral test that can be rigorously administered to each convert to determine the depth or truth of individual revelation. That makes your rule simply another method of dividing the Christian body. Paul spoke to this too.

Colossians 2:20-23
If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the universe, why do you live as if you still belonged to the world? Why do you submit to regulations, ‘Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch’? All these regulations refer to things that perish with use; they are simply human commands and teachings. These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-imposed piety, humility, and severe treatment of the body, but they are of no value in checking self-indulgence.

John pointed out that revelation is given to all, and are free to accept or abandon.

John 8:31-32
Then Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, ‘If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.’

And followed up with God’s ultimate commandment:

1John 3:11
For this is the message you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

I myself have had no special revelation. Despite serving in the church for 20 years, (where else better to ask God to know him?) I cannot count myself baptised in the spirit, hence I have not asked to be baptised with water. Will you continue to divide us? Or will you love?

Or, for that matter, will Harper (which is where this whole thing started in the first place).

Sorry about the homiletic, folks

This properly belongs in a private conversation. But there's no avenue for that.

G West

You said:
"So that phrase isn't from scripture, correct?"

No, it is not word for word, I have paraphrased, however, I am sure you are familiar with the scripture when the LORD told Peter, that he (Peter) knew that Jesus was the Christ because it had been revealed TO Him, and that is the ONLY way that that Truth can be KNOWN.

Sorry, it is not my own daft opinion,as it is shared by the LORD.

Zalm

Scripture can speak many different things and have different meanings as the Spirit leads, not as our gray matter THINKS.
What you are presenting is what you and others Think.
Sorry, I did not read all of your sermon.
The short truth is simply that unless and until the Spirit of God quickens our Spirit (born again) we are dead to the Spiritual things of God. we are then left with our intellect, which, as I am sure you are aware is proven woefully inadequate time and again in the Bible.

Zalm .. which church?

You said:
"Despite serving in the church for 20 years, (where else better to ask God to know him?)"

Which church did you look for Him in? RC. Anglican, Presb. Baptist, Pentecostal etc. etc.

Elijah, explains where you will hear from Him, and it is not by listening to other men, unless they can lead you into a relationship with the Holy Spirit.

Nope - you don't have a personal relationship with any 'LORD'

You just THINK you do.

It's your own daft OPINION - and that's all it ever will be.

Even the word LORD is open to interpretation - there is no logical reason for anyone to believe anything YOU tell them about anything.

These 'beliefs' are nothing but myths - comforting to some and frightening to others.

As an excuse for doing nothing about the REAL problems of the day fundamentalist Christianity is all about excluding, labeling and condemning people - that's what lies at the center of everything I've seen you write here.

To now pretend that it's all Yahweh's will is simply passing the buck for your own responsibility - you want to make a difference - show up at the local soup kitchen and get stuck in.

Pretending that you've seen the light (and others haven't) is just another way of saying you're special and excluding everyone else - exactly the kind of think elites have done throughout history.

Resorting to a imaginary and illogical concept like the 'holy ghost' or the 'holy spirit' as your authority is about as sensible as believing that the FULLER BRUSH man brings babies into the world.

G West

I don't think you like Christians much, do you?
Your earlier comment implied that had what I said been in scripture it would have merit.
Now, since I have shown it does appear in scripture you just want to throw it out anyway.
So, just be honest, you don't know if God is real or not, and anyone who claims He is, threatens your belief or lack of belief system.

G West just one more comment

"Pretending that you've seen the light (and others haven't) is just another way of saying you're special and excluding everyone else - exactly the kind of think elites have done throughout history."

There could not be a statement further from the truth, and it amazes me how well you know me when we have never met. How would you know I don't do my little part to help reduce human suffering. Just because I don't come into a forum like this and blow my own horn about how much good I'm doing, means nothing.

There is absolutely nothing special about me nor do I exclude ANYONE. I am nothing more than a true sinner, saved by Grace, who deserves ( as do we all) to spend an eternity in Hell forever absent from the Presence of God.

GWest

Apparently you're not allowed to believe about God what jimorsheryl believes about Leftees.

jimorsheryl

I'm fine with you not reading my sermon, and I draw no inferences about your faith because of it, although I suspect that in the same way, were you elected to Parliament, that you would not read any legislation that was put in front of you either.

But your response perfectly proves my point in response to your opinion:
Frankly, the Conservatives are no more zealous about religion than any of the other Godless parties in our country.
I say that to our shame.

Despite considerable evidence to the contrary, you insist that all political parties are godless, by which you mean the people in them and the aims for which they work.

You can't see that as opinion, you can only see it as revealed truth.

And that's why doing as your personal Saviour directs you when you lead a government of people of many opinions is particularly dangerous, as dangerous as Christianizing the military with a flavour of the end-times.

Weaponized Christianity indeed. Should this ever happen, I recommend handing out that old bumper sticker to everyone - "Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?"

"Which church did you look for Him in?..."

Mennonite. Anabaptist, meaning "re-baptizer". And I'm sure God will strike me with his grace in his own sweet time, not mine (and that's my opinion, not scriptural fact). Patience is a useful lesson to learn, and I'm learning a lot.

There's a whirlwind outside right now and it's not saying anything to me except "Stay out of the rain!"

Apocrypha

"Elijah, explains where you will hear from Him, and it is not by listening to other men, unless they can lead you into a relationship with the Holy Spirit."

1 Timothy explains how new Christians are to be instructed and led, and it is not by listening only for that still small voice, which is more likely to be your own than God's. Religious instruction of newcomers to the faith is to be conducted with others, with oversight, and with as much learning on the part of the teacher as can be profitably gained.

To G West, you quoted:

"You said:
"So that phrase isn't from scripture, correct?"

"No, it is not word for word, I have paraphrased..."

And by so doing inexpertly, you have fallen into error, and attempted to lead others into error. What is the penalty for altering Scripture?

Rev. 22:18-19

Nonetheless, I will pray for your wisdom and understanding to be increased, and I will ask others in our church to pray for you too, in case it may be true that (as I have been informed) God does not hear the intercessory prayers of an unbaptized heathen like me.

Blessings,

Truly.

nightbloom

I wouldn't call Paul Wells "analysis" sober or serious. Cherry-picking partial quotes out of the book, leaving her thesis nebulous while setting up a straw man to demolish, and failing to define terms are not the hallmarks of either good scholarship or good book reviews.

I've no idea if Marci McDonald's book looks into who Harper surrounds himself with, but to have Darrel Reid as deputy chief of Staff and Paul Wilson as director of policy at his doorstep or at his desk all day long gives fundamentalist Christians more access than the whole cabinet. And what with Reid's record of castigating welfare moms for their faults, and invoking Godwin's law by comparing human rights for gays to human rights for Nazis, there should be considerable concern shown on the part of all Canadians, Wells, included, that the advice Harper is getting is the best, the fairest and the least biased. And it seems that maybe it's not.

That Wells espouses no such concern reveals an axe to be ground. Conservatism, regardless of cost. Not a pretty sight, nor a moral one.

http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/05/14/those-crazy-christians-are-taking-over-ottawa/

Zalm... I had no idea

That such a font of authority resided in the forum of the humble Tyee. Does the rest of the Church know of your existance?

There is no error in my paraphrase, only in your interpretation.

Zalm ... me again

"Nonetheless, I will pray for your wisdom and understanding to be increased, and I will ask others in our church to pray for you too, in case it may be true that (as I have been informed) God does not hear the intercessory prayers of an unbaptized heathen like me."
I am aure you are familiar with scripture which says we know not how to pray, and that is why we need the Holy Spirit, as He alone prays according to God's will.
Well intentioned soulish prayers of Christians, have been referred to as white witchcraft by Derek Prince.

Great Googley Moogley ...

Now we are the heathen.

Oh, woe is me.

jimorsheryl, your contradictions, confabulations, and confusions are legion and you are a stain on righteous thought.

Well, no, not really.

But you are pretty gosh darn funny.

Godless?

Yep. That's me. Occam said it best: Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem.

Basically, "Don't bother making up silly, complicated sh1t when a simple explanation will do.

What I know of you is what you have revealed of yourself

My opinion is that you are a selfish, hateful fundamentalist Christian - you hate paying taxes and you assume anyone who does not vote the way you do is somehow a lesser human being.

You want to change my view - stop the proselytizing and show up at your local soup kitchen every week for twenty years - you`ll meet a lot of folks like me. You might even learn something.

"Zalm... I had no idea That

"Zalm... I had no idea

That such a font of authority resided in the forum of the humble Tyee.

I read my bible, I attend a bible study, though I will admit for the last three years not regularly at all, I've three different translations, I've stumbled through what little Greek NT that I can, I use different translations as preferred by other speakers and worship leaders when preparing the church bulletin each week, I read commentaries, and I read interesting, thoughtful, provocative and inspiring books, I lead worship singing of four-part hymns and provide background and interest for same, I go to the occasional free lecture at Regent, I did a weekend of soul-seaching with other men under the direction of Jim Houston and best of all, I talk with other Christians, most often around the dinner table. If this makes me an authority, the standards have gotten a lot lower in the last few hours.

Yet with my miserable learning, and no access to the Holy Spirit (at least none that I can discern) I cannot help but be insulted by the simplistic errors of interpretation in your born-again belief. I can only hope your pastor or spiritual director is a LOT better educated, and encourage you to bring this argument to him to justify yourself. Or learn something.

I wonder what you would do with such magnificent wisdom literature as Ecclesiastes? Now THAT's the inspired word of God.

Speaking of Regent, you might want to see if you can get into town for a couple of the free lectures they hold in the chapel.
http://www.regent-college.edu/events/public_lectures.php

May I recommend John Hare speaking on Can We Be Good without God? on Wednesday, July 21, at 8:00pm, or David Smith on Learning from the Stranger: Christians and Other Cultures on Monday, June 28 at 8:00pm? Or here's one! Charles Ringma on God's Concern for the Poor: Liberation Theology's Challenge to Evangelicals Wednesday, June 2 at 8:00pm. That one ought to rattle my cage a bit... it would be nice to have someone to attend with and talk about it afterward - you game or do I have to attend with some of the other "white witches" I usually hang out with?

West ... one last thing

You say:

My opinion is that you are a selfish, hateful fundamentalist Christian - you hate paying taxes and you assume anyone who does not vote the way you do is somehow a lesser human being.

You want to change my view

Why do you think I value your opinion?

Zalm.......

You do realize that your pedigree closely parallels the religious crowd that did not recognize Jesus when He stood in their midst.
They put much faith in their traditions and 'club' but still did not Know Him as He stood before them, and on the off chance He was Who others said He was, they decided to kill Him.
There is nothing new under the sun.

Thanks, jimorsheryl

We'll agree to disagree.

Skywalker:

No, I am not wrong. There was not one word recorded of the Jesus character during his alleged life. It all came decades later. And the Josphus yarn has been dismissed long ago; all he essentially said is that "There are these people who follow a Christ". And he was correct, there were all kinds of superstitious, illiterate, ignorant people who followed all kinds of saviour figures, gods, heros etc.

Please check out the previous links I offered.

And for those wish to delve into the "god" debate further, go here:

http://www.whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/

or here:

http://www.isgodimaginary.com/forum/

Speaking of hidden agendas

Can you imagine if Tommy Douglas the Baptist preacher had ever been elected PM?
Those Baptists have some pretty strong views on the place of women in the family.
Not to mention what Tommy had in mind for those with mental problems....

I have been unbanned

managed to post no probs.

happy

That's disingenuous - as for Douglas's views on eugenics - (which he later recanted) - he was a person of his time as are we all.

You may not be aware that Preston Manning's brother - son of the sainted Ernest Manning (how long WAS HE premier of Alberta?) - was castrated at an Alberta mental institution called the Alberta Training School.. you can look it up.

It isn't that we all don't make mistakes, hold mistaken impressions, believe in what turns out to be false science....The key is that we learn something from them.

I'd suggest that Tommy Douglas (who actually broke with his Baptist confreres over his political activities) did learn something and went on to become the greatest politician this country has ever known.

The problem is, Pee Wee is not learning - he' simply becoming more devious and evil...and he hides it under a carapace of 'Christianity'....

I don't think so West

Sure Harper's strongly religous - just like Douglas - but just like Doulas he's a politician first and foremost. You say Douglas distanced himself from the Baptists. True, but why. Because he no longer believed? Or because it was interfering with political ambitions.
Remember when Harper in his first term used to sign off every public appearance with "God bless Canada"?
That didn't last long did it. I'm sure the backroom boys told him to drop it and he did. Thats politics.

happy

What laws did Douglas pass based on his religious beliefs?

Nope.

Douglas was asked to stop his politica activity.

He refused and stepped down from his duties at the manse - and he spent the rest of his life serving the people of Canada in a way that a prune like Harper can't even imagine.

If you think Harper has forgotten his fundamentalist inclinations you haven't been paying attention. It's been all over the news for the past two months or so..check it out:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-refuses-to-fund-abortion-in-g8-plan/article1547671/

Have you been travelling outside the country?

Frank

What laws has Harper passed based on his?

I'm not defending Harpers ignorant personal beliefs. Would you have defended Douglas if he had come out and preached the Baptist mantra - that women are subservient to men and to do as thay are told.

And heres food for thought. Isn't it ironic that you can mention Tommy Douglas and George Bush in the same sentence if you are talking about that particular brand of god fearing.....

G West ...

LOL! I'm not sure why, but that phrase has me cackling like a giddy loon. Thanks for that.

happy

"What laws has Harper passed based on his? "

How about the one that's put him in the news all over the world. Didn't you read the article? Try the 4th paragraph.

Again, when did Douglas ever do that?

You're trying to smear Douglas with innuendo while defending Harper in spite of actual facts and examples.

The fourth paragraph

Those aren't laws Frank. Those are policies. Laws can only be changed by the Government of Canada and the Cons cannot do that on thier own in a minority. Dobbin goes somewhat over the top as usual.
So....no hidden agenda there.

happy

So you agree with the article that Harper has imposed "policies" based on his religious views?

Hmm!

happy - just a quick note about what constitutes 'law and legislation'. The rules are not as hard and fast as you might like to think. In fact, all kinds of legislation NEVER sees the inside of the House of Commons and is passed, approved and signed into law by nothing more than a signature from a member of the executive council.

Harper has changed the rules - and cut the funding - of a great many groups that he, apparently, does not agree with. I don't believe that you can make a convincing case for those changes NOT being motivated by his personal religious attitudes, his prejudices and his beliefs.

@ John Greg

Glad you liked it.

I have other names for our 'esteemed' leader. I still think my favourite is Pee Wee Rambo...a label that Jean-Robert Sansfaçon applied to him in Le Devoir after his fist prime ministerial trip to Afghanistan.

It actually comes out better in French:

But, by all means, if 'prune' works for you use it with my blessings - in fact use it well and use it often!

Cheers.

From G West:

His "becoming more devious and evil" is directly proportional to the increasing wimpiness of the "opposition". Imagine what he would do, given a majority.....

Tea Party Pick Causes Uproar on Civil Rights

http://www.onenewspage.com/news/Front+Page/20100521/11225496/Tea-Party-Pick-Causes-Uproar-on-Civil-Rights.htm
Rand Paul, the Tea Party candidate who challenged the Republican establishment to win the party’s Senate nomination in Kentucky two days ago, criticized a landmark civil rights law on Thursday
Mr. Paul, in a series of television and radio interviews, suggested that the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was too broad and should not apply to private businesses, such as luncheonettes.

PM Harper's "role model"..........?

Separation of Church and State

Is not a Canadian law and is simply a mantra for those who wish to exclude God from having anything to do with the affairs of man.
Nothing new there.
The separation of Church and State was to stop the State from interfering with the Church. Of course during this age of rampant humanism, and secularism that concept has been turned on it's head.
There has never been a better example of the benefits of God being involved with the affairs of man, than during the reign of King Solomon.

Rampant humanism?

I learn a new one every day at the Tyee....is being human bad now? Should I stop?

To answer Frank and West - personal bias affects all our decision making, so sure, that would affect Harper too. The thing is, have his policies gone over the line?
I don't see much backlash over the cuts except for those who's funding was chopped, which would be expected.
Just my personal observations.

Non separation of church and state

I guess you'd prefer we go back to 15th and 16th century Spain or perhaps 21st century Saudi Arabia where there was(and is) NO SEPARATION BETWEEN CHURCH AND STATE. LOVELY.

As for using Solomon as an example of the 'benefits' of God being involved in the affairs of men I suggest you brush up on your history a little bit...You might want to take a poll among his 600 wives - or is that just a myth?

The little bit of archeological evidence that exists indicates that - in Solomon's time (if he existed at all) - the kingdom of Israel was little more than a small city state…with absolutely no wider influence and fewer accurate evidence of any of the fairy stories and poetry in the Torah.

You might want to trust a few Jewish historians rather than the re-jigged 'bible' you apparently believe without question. And you might want to talk to a few Jews about what their opinion(s) are relative to how they’ve been treated when by Christian kings and parliaments.

But, even if your interpretation were correct, and the 600 wives and concubines don't trouble you, the slaves should AND the destruction of the imaginary kingdom at the end of Solomon's reign should give you a bit of pause with respect to what ALWAYS happens to nations that are built on religious orthodoxy and the muzzling of difference and dissent.

You believe what you like - but when it comes to politics and your neighbours, please, leave your 'bible' on the shelf.

Like I said, spend 20 or 30 years actually and regularly SERVING people who need help (there are lots of them around) then come back and tell me what you think.

For the moment, your religion seems to be all about YOU - and for me, that's just plain wrong....

religion versus spiritualism

We have a brain, a heart and a soul (something extra) and we should use them all. Christ's Good Samaritan story shows us how we should treat one another, if we want good communities. David Suzuki's advice is: we should have started looking after our environment 30 years ago. He's right. Let's do all we can to undue the harm we've done for the last 300 years. Jerry West (editor of Gold River's The Record) says we are overpopulating ourselves beyond the land's ability to provide. He's right. Let's stop reproducing ourselves beyond reason. Insist on it. Other species have a right to exist. We're all interdependent. Ed Deak writes that we need a sustainable economic system--one that respects the environment we all live in. He's right. We must consider other species and the ecological system we all live in and find a way to survive without destructive "growth". BC Mary decries the cruelty with which we treat the economically disadvantaged. Equality, sustainability should be our watchwords--not forever growth and profit stolen from the labour and the livelihood of others. We really are stupid people if we believe and follow godless people like Harper, the late Milton Friedman, Mulroney, Martin, Campbell, Klein-Stelmach, McGuinty, etc.

Common sense, kindness and respect for Mother Earth and all life are all that's needed. This is practical spiritualism, rather than mindless religion. For you diehard 'religious' people, remember that there's a devil and he may be wearing a 3-piece suit, or hiding under a religious robe. Use your brain, heart and soul. THINK with all that God gave you.

jimorsheryl ...

Your misundertstanding, misinterpretation, and widdershins spin on reality is legion and I suppose par for the course for a deluded theist.

We in Canada by and large condone and encourage the separation of church and state quite specifically to avoid the terrifying consequences that all, I repeat, all theist-based states encounter, including fundamental and severe limitations on human rights, freedom of expression, freedom of thought, equality between the sexes, and an almost always apocalyptic theist militance leading to the subjugation, incarceration, and deaths of thousands of innocents who have the simple temerity to disagree with the fanatical stance of the theist state.

jimorsheryl, I have one simple queastion for you:

If given the power to enact relevant legislation and act in law, what laws would you create, what rules of behaviour would you enact, would actions would you take in regard to the millions of atheists living, working, voting, and abiding in Canada?

C'mon jimorsheryl, pony up and put your money where your mouth is.

What would you do?

Marysue52 ...

The soul is nothing more than a metaphor of the delusion. There is no evidence of any kind that any so-called soul exists in anything other than the human imagination.

While I agree with conservation, it is nonetheless false to claim that other species have some sort of inherent or inalienable rights. We, humans, create rights. Rights are nothing more nor less than an anthropgenic fabrication developed in the human brain through debate, discussion, and the critical use of the human intellect.

Other than that most of what you say makes logical sense from a humanitarian point of view. But let's leave out the squidgey and meaningless feel-goodies of magical thinking about souls, Mother Earth, practical spritualism, God, god, and gods, and get down to those brassy human tacks for a change.

Myth-making and magical thinking only muddy already too dark waters.

If We Must Have Gods

Okay, if we have to have God/god/gods, let’s at least nominate some winners.

For Prime God I nominate the Flying Spghetti Monster replete with noodley appendages all ablaze.

For Deputy Prime God I nominate Gandalf, as protrayed by Ian McKellen replete with smoke rings, flowing white robe, and magical phallic staff.

For the Keeper of Souls I nominate J.S. Bach -- such sublime and perfect music must be godlike in its beauty, eh wot?

For the Wholly Mother I nominate Mrs. Durrell (mother of Gerald and Lawrence). She was a great cook, an amazingly tolerant mom, and an all around really Mom-like person, and short -- great Mom’s should be short.

For Devil’s Advocate ... hmm. That’s a tough one. Maybe Christopher Hitchens replete with ciggies, scotch, and bitter banter.

For the Jesus figure let’s have an ever-shifting cast of some of the great scapegoats of the last few centuries; recent enough to be familiar; ancient enough to have undergone some real nasty scapegoating.

For the Angel of the Tower of song, well, Leonard, of course. Hallelujah Lenny!

So, who or what have I left out?

happy

You're spinning. The reason this article exists and so many others like it across Canada, and the reason even the rest of the world noticed it is because it IS over the line. It IS an abrupt change in Canadian policy that is based on the religious views of the leader. And as the article points out, its not surprising given who he surrounds himself with and what other policy changes they've made.

Its just not over your personal line, which is fine.

Can't argue that Frank

We all have our personal lines. And you know what, sometimes we may look the other way if the stench isn't too bad. I'll admit I do a bit of that with Harper.
Would you admit to looking the other way with Vander Zalm may I ask in the spirit of fairness?

Vander Zalm?

Why him? I'd never vote for the guy.

If you're talking about the HST, fact is, I don't care who is leading it.

The ends justify the means

Yes, you'd never vote for hin b/c he's the neocons neocon. He thinks welfare recipients are lazy, down and out natives in the DTES are the authors of thier own misfortune and unwed pregnant females are a sin.
Items I thought were important to you.
But when it comes to doing whatever it takes to get back at Gordo, all that is swept under the carpet. Looking the other way, as I said.
I'm sure you've seen the latest news today, Harper reaffirmed there will be no abortion changes in Canada. He may have ignorant beliefs but he also knows which way the wind blows....whether he has a majority or not.

happy

That dog is not going to hunt. I haven't swept anything under the carpet.

I'm not a supporter of Vander Zalm, never have been, never will be. I can support the HST initiative and not support Vander Zalm. Its pretty easy in fact.

And I support the HST initiative not only because its throwing water in the face of Campbell but also because I've been against the HST from Day 1, I'm still against the GST too for that matter.

Increasing consumption taxes and reducing income taxes is a terrible strategy, I think its the kind of thing a high school class would come up with after a 15 minute discussion on tax reform.

I'm against it too Frank

Not b/c of the tax grab, the NDP would take it out of our wallets too in a different fashion perhaps. I'm against it b/c of the way it was introduced. Dirty politics. I have to give the NDP a let now on the fudge-it budget as I see this as exactly the same as Glen's "optimistic" forestry revenues. "Critical information was witheld from the public" was I believe the way the judge put it. Not illegal. Just dirty. Gordo too now.

John Greg ... gladly 'pony up'

jimorsheryl, I have one simple queastion for you:

If given the power to enact relevant legislation and act in law, what laws would you create, what rules of behaviour would you enact, would actions would you take in regard to the millions of atheists living, working, voting, and abiding in Canada?

C'mon jimorsheryl, pony up and put your money where your mouth is.

What would you do?

You don't seem to realize that LAWS can NEVER change the heart of a person. We don't need any more, and there is no law which can change the heart of an atheist.
You can not legislate someone into a knowledge of GOD. It was tried by King Constantine and it has been a mess ever since.
The only thing anyone can do, is share the Truth of God and pray He will open the eyes of the atheist. I could not nothing.

John Greg I'm sorry, I didn't know you were just kidding.

I answered your question about 'pony up' until I read your nonsense about God/god/gods.
You are either a very funny guy, or one who just enjoys mindless prattle.

happy

Not that it matters but I think the Liberal fudge was about 15 to 20 times more than the Clark fudge.

Consumption and income taxes don't add up to the same amount for each individual so its doubtful you would pay jsut as much under an NDP scheme.

Marysue52 said:

"We have a brain, a heart and a soul (something extra) and we should use them all. Christ's Good Samaritan story shows us how we should treat one another, if we want good communities."

While I sense (from your entire post) that you and I are actually on the same team, I must challenge your wild, baseless assertions. Yes, we have a brain. As we are merely a part of the carbon-based tree of life that has cooked up on this planet in the last 3.5 billion years, we share that with other animals. That, however, is where our agreement divides. Yes, we have a heart, but as we all know, a heart pumps blood. Nothing more. Nothing less. You might as well have said, "We have a brain, a liver........yaddy yadda.

You also assert a supernatural claim that we have a "soul". What exactly do you mean by that, and what is your evidence for such a huge claim? The fact is, all we are and experience is, and can be fully and satisfactorilly explained in natural terms. Everything that you are and experience (including emotions) is nothing more than brain activity. Full stop. And it is proportionate to the level that our brains have evolved.

The mythic Christ character also taught a host of other things that we have thankfully discarded due to common sense and reason (have you sold all of your possessions yet?). The greatest tragedy of humanity is that morality has been hijacked by religion, and specifically the moral smugness of christinsanity. Just look at how the "Golden Rule" has been expressed outside of christendom:

http://www.teachingvalues.com/goldenrule.html

We have come to a point where we really can't afford to use religious dogma any more. Compassion, love, empathy, and a good life is available to us all through the hard work of reason and the tenets of secular humanism.

paternalism

It's strange that we still fall for a hierarchical system of centralized government that reflects our obsolete belief in how God made the universe in one mere election cycle. Speeches from Thrones are essentially the same as "words from God". Election night is like the Big Bang, and the little peons gather in front of their TV's like fools in Plato's cave, enraptured by the majesty of a new beginning, a new reign by some overweight white male that has done his utmost with a cheap suit and tie to fool us into believing our fate is now in his hands.

Great post wiley!

Reminds me of this:

The idea of god was not a lie but a device of the unconscious which needed to be decoded by psychology. A personal god was nothing more than an exalted father-figure. Desire for such a deity sprang from infantile yearnings for a powerful, protective father; for justice and fairness and for life to go on forever. God is simply a projection of these desires, feared and worshipped by human beings out of an abiding sense of helplessness. Religion belonged to the infancy of the human race; it had been a necessary stage in the transition from childhood to maturity. It had promoted ethical values which were essential to society. Now that humanity had come of age, however, it should be left behind. (Sigmund Freud)

'greatest Canadian' was a 'fundamentalist Christian

How scary those fundamentalist Christians.... such as Tommy Douglas, JS Woodsworth and Stanley Knowles.Now, they are turning over in their graves seeing their godless and anti-Christian party (NDP) lambasting those other fundamentalist Christians.Christianity allows so called left wing and right wing Christians( Douglas, Woodsworth, Knowles would be classified as leftists, Harper et all would be right wing):but that's a lot more than what the non Christians leftists allow. They think that only they are the source of all wisdom and that their doctrines are the best for humanity.
They should remember the roots of socialism in Canada and show some respect for the religion that shaped the men who shaped Canada into what it is today.

Frank ... you said

Frank, you said:

"Certainly not from wild and carefree spending on social programs. Even recently the government has had plenty of money to back our banks and give out a hundred billion in corporate tax cuts."

You are overlooking the fact they did not 'find' plenty of money to back our banks etc., they simply increased the deficit!
I am 61 years old, and MY generation has perhaps been the most deluded in history when it comes to the idea of entitlement and what we can afford.
All those high paying union jobs in the auto and forest sector and those high paying pensions, we thought were so secure ..... where are they now?
More tax on business the left will chant .... you miss the fact that GM went bust, and the government had a choice, either take on the massive debt it took to get the wheels rolling again, or pay all those auto workers welfare.
All those overpriced CUPE civil servant jobs are just another form of social welfare, and those of us having to pay those overpriced civil servants, have just about had enough of it.
As a nation, and generation we have been living in lulu land for decades.

CF1

Are you saying that GOD does not exist? That Darwin was right and we all climbed from the primal ooze?
Or are you saying that religion has done a lousy job of telling people what He is really like?
I can't tell, and quoting Freud, is well....folly.

All those overpriced CUPE civil servant jobs ......

......are what the norm should be amongst the population. Considering that government spending efficiencies operate somewhere in the single percentile category, this is easily achievable - were it not for "your types" absurd notion of "entitlement".
http://www.policyalternatives.ca/livingwage2010

PS

Where is your railinig against the "age of entitlement" amongst our MP's with their kafuffle over revealiing expenses? And how about this whining:
http://www.timescolonist.com/business/Bill+rein+Ferries+could+cost+millions+Hahn/3060167/story.html

Why 'your types' constantly denounce the working stiff, but either ignore or praise the CEO's?

Frank

"Increasing consumption taxes and reducing income taxes is a terrible strategy, ..." Why? We are frequently hearing that we consume too much 'stuff'. We have to reduce all this crazy consumption. Consumption taxes might help this crazy consumer society. Food and other essentials are HST exempt.

It's not surprising to see Murray writing here and doing just what Frank Graves and Laurence Martin talked about; a Cultural War.

Funny that since that divisive and extreme policy was recommended the left in Canada has tanked!

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-notebook/tories-surge-with-liberals-mired-in-unimaginable-depths/article1575402/

The Conservatives and the Greens are up but the Liberals and the NDP are down across the country. It's increasing looking like any attempted coalition in the near future will be Iggy and the Liberals approaching the Conservatives and offering their rump to push them into majority territory. The NDP and the Liberals combined will not be enough alone. The Bloc are out the next time but, as a consolation and with more than double the number of seats than the NDP they will become Her Majesties Loyal Official Opposition.