Bound to happen

I had a feeling that the 8:30 AM protest might attract the - sigh - militant anarchists... kind of sad I missed it, actually, would have been interesting.

How to rally people to your cause.

The only question is, why did the police not arrest more?

snert

I wonder if they're trying to keep the arrest numbers down in the press, actually! In the CTV videos you see the police getting assaulted and then letting go the assaulter... not your grand-pappy's VPD, it seems!

Protest Update

The protest continued up Robson to Broughton street. Check out the short video clip of the protest and further photo documentation/information.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/kharvey/4353835609/in/set-72157623428215122/

Agent Provocateurs Again???

Well maybe it was protesters smashing stuff, or maybe it was the cops again. Remember Seattle 1999, Montebello 2007 etc etc etc.

e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_provocateur

I think VANOC got their

I think VANOC got their wish; 1)More viewers will now tune into the games, 2)now all the protesters will be classified as 'violent' and the legit protesters will be discredited.

Down with the foolish

Down with the foolish violence. If these folks want to justify more police and more prisons - they are achieving their goal.

Well so much for being civil. These protestors are crap!

Well so much for being civil. The majority of citizens and people in Vancouver for the games had hoped for peaceful protests so now we have this crap.

and don't give the sob story about the homeless and the poor. It's very much evident that many of the protestors don't give a rat's ass about the plight of the the downtown east side.

To the protestors who did the damage. Don't blame the police. You made the decision to do the damage.

If you're from the States, hope you're shipped back to the States on the next bus to the border
and kicked across the line like a Lui Passaglia
field goal kick.

Nice goin' fellas. You just eliminated what was barely there in your credibility.

If you want it back, come back and help the shop owners sweep up the mess you made.

Otherwise if you don't live in the Lower Mainland,
get out.

Ohhh Sure !

Agent Provocateurs Again???
Well maybe it was protesters smashing stuff, or maybe it was the cops again. Remember Seattle 1999, Montebello 2007 etc etc etc."

How quickly some people want to somehow excuse criminal activity on the part of some who take the opportunity to create violence. Isn't it funny how so-called "anarchists" depend entirely on a civil society for their "rights"? The very same people who make excuses for these scum, are the first ones to scream "Gestapo" when police act. Well, today and last night, the police were EXTREMELY lenient and let many assaults just slide.
The "Rules of Engagement" have been established, we KNOW who the perpetrators of violence are, it ain't the cops.
The people who, before today, were thinking about protesting should now reconsider, as they know now peaceful protest is impossible with these scum "Provocateurs" intent on blatant criminal activity.

Thanks Geoff for the

Thanks Geoff for the thoughtful, balanced journalism regarding the protests yesterday and today. The Globe and Mail articles read like something a ten year old twittered on behalf of the VPD.

agents provocateurs

Edoherty is right. There exist several agents provocateur amongst our policemen. CEP members filmed some of these treacherous policemen trying to incite violence at a peaceful demonstration. These unconscionable pseudo-policemen were dressed in black. CEP leader Dave Coles recognized their police-type riot boots. True anarchists are not violent, from what I've seen. They just believe in no governments, just local agreements and the tooth fairy. Bullies (corporations, CEOs, about 30% of our police force, gangsters, outlaw bikers, etc.) will take advantage of any government and any economic systems, incl. the one we have now or the kind that anarchists propose. We need to make greed a jailable crime. Society can no longer afford to tolerate greedy bullies. The police should be spying on corporate boardrooms, where the REAL crimes are taking place.

To the "protesters"

To anyone out there who thinks a newspaper box through a plate glass window is a great way to make your point:

In case you're reading this, I'm just writing to say thanks.

You see, there was a big risk, after yesterday's peaceful protest, that VANOC and the federal government would end up looking silly. Here they had spent huge amounts of money on security, shut down our local court system and short-staffed police forces across the country to ensure they had lots of officers on the street in Vancouver, and invaded all our privacy with security cameras at every corner, and it almost looked like it was going to be all for nothing.

Imagine if the whole Olympics had gone off with nothing but peaceful sit-ins and family-friendly marchers educating the tourists about social problems in Vancouver and B.C. What a waste of money all that security would have been. How excessive all the spying on Olympic opponents would have seemed.

But now we don't have to worry about that. You made sure that all that money was well spent. You made sure that for the next two weeks (and any time in the future that there is a big event in town) all those police officers and security teams will be able to get into everyone's faces without looking like bullies. Compared to throwing large objects around, riffling through people's backpacks will look perfectly reasonable.

And to all the conspiracy theorists claiming "agent provacateur", I seriously doubt it. Not that there weren't likely undercover cops in the crowd, listening in to see what was happening. But the police know that if they were caught actually committing violent or destructive acts, it would be the biggest scandal of every big scandal the RCMP and VPD have dealt with.

It should also be remembered that the "agents" at the SPP in Montebello were caught out not just because of their boots, but because all of the peaceful protesters refused to go along with them.

Great photos & story, Geoff. I hope this is as exciting as it gets.

cboo44 ...

Obviously, you are quite wrong, as was proved Friday with a very peaceful protest. Or have you somehow missed that particular news story?

As to the violence, well, I think that while regretable it is certainly understandable.

Furthermore, as some other posters have pointed out, there is reason to both wonder at and be somewhat impressed by the fact that there is not more violence. The uber-capitalist corporate state is guilty of countless instances of far worse violence than that which occured at this rather small and ineffective protest.

Are there in fact agents provcateur [sic]? I don't know. I'm sure it is both possible and plausible, after all, the ruling elite will stop at very little to carry forth their agenda. However, until there is at least some subtantial proof it strikes me as a rather thin claim.

I sincerely wish the theatricality of the black face coverings was left out. That's just too silly; too theatrical -- unless, of course, it is the so-called angents provocatuer who are covering up, in which case they would certanily need to hide their identity.

As to legitimate protestors, I feel they should have the moral strength of character to show their identity and to back up their politics with same. After all, if getting arrested for your beliefs is something you're afraid to do, then I would think those beliefs may be either questionable or rather weak. I could be wrong, and I suspect there may be exceptions that I'm not seeing, but that's how I see it at the moment.

protest these type of protestors

Let's get REAl,hey!
These are NOT activists or protesters.
I see them as people, mostly young bucks cruisin' for a bruisin.'
They spoil legitimate marches, vigils and protest.
Pete Seeger, Martin Luther King, Mandala.
None of these people covered their faces.
They worked hard, they gave speeches.
They sacrificed spare time for profound causes.
These masked bandits are basically following a gang mentality.
I have been on protests, sitins, logging blockades and many other forms of civil disobedience. My rapport with the police was in general,one of mutual respect.

Agents provocateurs

Whoa, man, I'm freaking out!

You've got to be pretty out of touch with reality to assume, without evidence, that these protests turned violent by agent provocateur. Sure, it has happened before, but more often it has not, and here, it has almost certainly not.

Haven't you all been following the lead up to the protests? Have you talked to anybody involved? Have you observed the protests first hand?

In the greater scheme of things, have you any idea of the militant protest movement in Canada, and what kind of elements exist on the spectrum? Read a bit of history. Were the Squamish Five agents provocateurs?

Sheesh

Back at ya........

I have my own suggestion for future protests.

Turn up in business suits and carry a briefcase.

We need protesters to dress up as corporate bankers.

Let's watch the photo-op on that one - the subversive confusion of symbols that presents.

Use their power symbols against them ....

They co-opt our symbols all the time...time to turn the tables.....as coyoteman suggest above "two can play at this game".

Well done Black Bloc!

Firstly this goes to Amelia Bellamy-Royds,

If you truly think that 2 weeks of sit ins and people shouting catch phrases against the olympics would have made a solid point you are absolutely insane. Over a billion $ has been spent on security and everything you listed is here to stay. NOW, which is a better way to get the attention of media and people World Wide. Sit ins claiming that this budget is ridiculous or causing econmic damage.

All of you do simple internet searches and see the comparisons from the protests on Friday compared to the ones this morning. The protests from this morning have dominated the media while the peaceful protests are barely mentioned.

Peaceful protesting is a waste of time and a dead art form when done without the people willing to use direct action. No social movement has ever been successful from non-violence and peace alone. (Anyone about to list Gandhi needds to do a bit more research if you think it was completely non-violent.)

Also, how is property damage considered violence? I have never been able to figure this out!? The reasoning is simple for breaking windows at Bay, TD, RBC, and so on. They are main supporters and sponsors from these games gaining incredible profits from the suffering of others. They do not care about peaceful protesters as that will never hurt their bottom line. Profits. Where as breaking windows does. It is that simple.

As for the 'violence' done as a few people against the police. I do not see that as violence at all. I am against the use of human violence at protests, but I am a firm believer in SELF DEFENSE. How many of you have actually been to a protest who are making these statements against those of today?

In past protests around the World I have been beaten with batons and shields, pepper sprayed, been hit with an LDAR, been hit with a water cannon, tear gassed, shot at with rubber bullets, and witnessed other friends being beaten with terrible police brutality. Where do you draw the line of 'violence' and 'self-defense'?

I say if a police officer is going to strike you just to prove a point or "push the crowd back" then it is a legal right for us to be able to protect ourselves. Hit them back and use more force if need be.

I can only say I am happy that some people took to the streets and faught for what they believed in with direct action. Most people who post seem to be no more educated than mainstream press when it comes to anarchy and people who people who may form a black bloc.

I for one, applaud all the black and red warriors on the streets of Vancouver and am proud to know that there are still a few people out there willing to fight for what they believe in instead of sit back and judge others while doing nothing themselves. I will be there shortly to join you!

Right on carfreed

The protests show the dark side of our populace. Real statements will be lost because some idiots prefer to get their anger management issues out and destroy private property. Families that own businesses are being put through hard times! What value does that have?
It should be illegal to cover your face in a protest. Why be ashamed to express yourself?
Show up in business suits or space suits or whatever, but be proud of your cause and stop destroying the privately held businesses of the public. WE are the public.
Protesters are supposed to represent the public not destroy their ability to make a living.
Those that point the finger continuously at the police are kidding themselves. Coyoteman didn't say anything but hyperbole, and get a rush from suggesting he actually knows anything.
If you want to become your enemy then be an idiot. We protect ourselves from idiots such as these cowards that hide behind hoods or murderers with tazers because there are dangerous elements inside and outside of the establishment. They are violent destructive morons.
What could possibly justify that? Anarchists. They are not anything but destructive morons bent on taking the stage at this time so they can feel some sense of enhightened importance. They are incapable of anything else.

Violence?

Violence is not the way.
You play into the hands of those that are waiting for it.

Whether by the police, or by

Whether by the police, or by people marching, I'm afraid that I can't accept destroying other people's property as a legitimate tactic by anyone.

Ed

Agreed. The cause, if there is one, does not justify the behavious.
I doubt there is a cause at all except a perverse need to express violence.

The need to get smart and be effective 1...

"While the right-wing whiners are hoping the newspaper box in a bank window "outrage" will harm the anti-Owe-lympics Movement, history shows different. In neither case did these acts of vandalism have a negative effect upon the movements which called these demonstrations."

Attacking a bank especially in this time is going to harm "the image" of the resistance? Not bloody likely! It was the most potently symbolic thing that was done in this demonstration, which will resonate the most with the mass of folks.

There is a more complex process going on here, at street level, than just saying, "This good. But that is bad."

Anarcho is correct.

An entire movement is struggling to emerge, and go through its learning curve. It's struggling to reconcile effective and weed out ineffective actions... this latter which "peaceful" actions can be as ineffective as the "violent" ones.

There is a need to be more effective and to pick better symbols /targets to attack, by whatever methodology.

On the other hand THEIR violence, that of The State and The System, as in the case of this latest major assault on the impoverished and war ravaged cities and towns, being "the people" of Afghanistan, is far more brutal and criminal than any news box thrown through a bank door. Get real here, on whose violence is the far more dangerous, and damaging to the greater number of people. Starvation is violence as well, and on a street near you.

And one doesn't have to condone anything. Just keep it in some kind of rational perspective and balance.

But for everybody in "the movement" here, in whatever camp you place yourself, there is a need to get smarter and more focused in our tactics, and our choices of "the symbols" and "persons" we select to direct peoples attention to, direct their anger, and educate them about.

The "peaceful" side of the movement will only lose, where and when it IS seen to be ineffective and not bold enough, or does in fact submit to allowing itself to be influenced, and up dead end streets and into ineffectiveness, by the Powers That Be. (The current trade union movement, for example.)

continued next post...

The need to get smart and effective 2

From previous post...

Look at Iran right now. "The System" and its supporters do not have any difficulty sympathizing with or even supporting that kind of violence, on the part of "the opposition" masses against that State and Islamic Capitalist System. But when it comes to attacking "their system", the one here at home, all of a sudden they are concerned about "violence", and only support peaceful protests. They are suddenly cherubic little angels.

All of a sudden, these rightists become the same as their enemy elsewhere. They in effect become and take up the voice and cause of Ahmadenajad, for protection of the State and the status quo.

No, we should not be swayed either way by these rightists and indignant "upright citizens". We should understand a little better the fuller dynamic that is in play here, its many sides and facets. This business will evolve in the fullness of time here, to do what works and what is necessary for the victory of a real, not bullshit democracy, the creation of a true and fuller equality of all citizens. And for those again and again raised revolutionary demands of the people for bread, shelter, social security, and freedom from oppression and exploitation by the wealthy.

cboo44, BC Boy and the other Liberals

Sorry buttercups, but you ignored the problems for 9 years.

You wanted your precious Olympics to go off without a hitch so you could feel warm inside as world media purred about how nice Vancouver was and your property values went up.

Well, if you had truly wanted no protests you wouldn't have supported Campbell's class warfare that's been going on.

Angus Reid poll :

"83 per cent believe the Games are planned to benefit elite members of society"

"Almost 60 per cent of respondents agreed with the statement that the Vancouver Olympics are a waste of money that could be used for more important things."

veganterraist is right, we've had peaceful protests and you ignored them.

If you live in poverty you

If you live in poverty you experience personal harm every fucking day. If a few well insured windows, a paper box here and there are damaged, so be it. Why do we care more about consumer stuff then the violence of poverty. Do you think our kids in Afghanistan are from rich families? I don't.

Criminal Protesters

The OWElympics are a waste of money.

Nevertheless, anyone involved in a group, with members of that same group who involve themselves in criminal acts, are also complicit as far as I am concerned.

Some people in my circles are now also turning against these anarcho clowns and are looking at forming their own vigilante groups to go to Vancouver's downtown core and TURN ON THESE ANARCHO CRIMINALS.

Frankly, if anyone pulled a similar criminal act in my presence, I would personally give them a good sh$# kicking.

People are now turning against these anarchos.

And the sad part is, the public is also now turning against these criminal protest acts, which erases all the good that the legitimate and peaceful protesteres did on Friday afternoon.

Matt T

"the public is also now turning against"

Bullshit, the "public" has been cheering violence for 9 years. But it turns out they only like it when the poor are on the receiving end, not their precious banks.

Let's keep it civil here

Stop the personal insults folks. Calling people names isn't going to help us sort through this difficult but necessary conversation.

curious...

Is it true? Do we really value the sanctity of private (corporate) property more than...well, pretty much anything else? That we decry the violence of window-breaking, but not the violence of poverty, the bullying of corporate 'rights' holders, the terrrible wastefulness of a lugers' death that might be attributed to an insanity of greed and ego?

I have never in my life practised violence - or willfully broken a window - but if I have to choose it will be to stand with the anarchists. For apparently there are some of you that just cannot see the violence that others live with every day. The goddess knows I cannot stand with you.

Call me crazy if you like...

CTVbc has video of the window smashers and has come out with a new article titled "who are the anarchists", which is a statement from police and which separates the people involved with this incident from those who were responsible for staging the peaceful protest on Friday.
Previous to this article was a piece called "first day of olympics marred by violence" where we can see almost 150 comments which are predominantly anti protestors of all flavors. At least half of these comments are, as one extremely astute commentor says, recognizable as coming from the same con and neocon supporters around election time. Further, as a few commentors point out, these protestors that are clad completely in black could easily have been inserted into the situation.
I thought personally that it was insertion by the police, but it makes much more sense that it was insertion by our government. Harper arrives and so too does his entourage of lemmings.
21 comments so far to the "who are the anarchists articles". It appears that the cons and neocons have retreated for now.. perhaps they are satisfied with the damage they've done.

Whuh?

There is no acceptance of anyone's behaviour going on here, Campbell or the IOC etc.
Whoever says they are one of the "anarchists" destroying private property....read "our property"...is fighting against the people that work for their families. What good does that do?
Nothing.
It works against the greater good. Hooking people up with your demons does not make ay rational sense whatsoever except to rationalize your bent existence. What is important is retaining the side of the the Right, which is to be good despite hte action of your perceived enemy.
We as British Columbians and Canadians are selling our country by the pond, that I have no doubt. But playing into the hands of the ones that will cosume our resources and property is plain stupid.
Anarchovegy is in his or her anger stating the angst that we have. I doubt there is much fact in it but it is what it is.
Playing into the hands of those who will take our property and resources is stupid. stupid. stupid.
The public is not 100% supportive, but violent action will only add to the numbers that do support the administration that Vegy abhours. Why not think about the outcomes before acting in violence and anger?
The insults, thanks Mr. Beers, are meaningless. Consider the source.

Spoilt little brats....

.... jumping up and down shouting "look at me, look at me".

Sorry, David Beers, I take your point but I'm saying that as a fairly restrained observation of fact and not as an insult.

I'm a strong opponent of the Games and the corporatism that they represent and I know that there are places and have been times when violent resistance has been the only option available against such forces. This is not such a place or time.

I have had the misfortune to see first hand the human and material consequences of political violence taken to its extreme, in the IRA campaign in Britain. I have heard the same justification and glamorization that can be read above. I will never regard these people with anything but contempt.

You're so proud and brave, boys? Put up your names.

the Bay

This is the Tyee, where posters regularly call for a revolution!
How do you expect a revolution to happen if you cry over some broken windows?
I feel they choose wisely since the Bay is a main sponsor of this idiotic event, if you need to "nail" any property it should be the sponsors property.
They get fat selling stuff made by slave labour, and profit from the medias promotion of silly mitts etc.

Violence

It is not an option.

Alive

Whose windows were they? Not your obviously. You profit from the same system they do. If change needs to be made it has to be made in a way that doesn't prejudice the goal.

korporate media loves violent vandalism

black clad masked brats and vandals only harm the cause, and themselves when caught for administrative justice. should be shunned and isolated when seeking cover in non violent mass gatherings. anyone touches my nikon loses their nuts.

max's nikon

Heaven forbid your precious piece of 'private property' gets damaged. It is comments like that which make me lose all faith in humanity.

You can rape our land and spend over $6 billion on an event most people do not want... just don't touch my nikon.

Wow! Really..? You obviously have no idea what 'The Cause' really is do you?

We are not hiding from anyone. We are just being tactically intelligent. Why does no one complain that all the cops out there in riot gear have masks on? Why not tell them to show themselves? Why is no one asking for their names?

HOW?

DavidN
"If change needs to be made it has to be made in a way that doesn't prejudice the goal."

Please tell us how you would change things in this corporate world, without violence?

Obviously, the idea of voting does not sit well with about half of the citizens, even if they swear at the government!

A new discourse

I think the issue here is that the opposition movement has not been able to build a coherent message against the Games (whether peacefully or through direct action).

Marching through downtown on Friday night I know more than a few people were confused when the protest seemingly turned into an anti-Tar Sands march. I understand the connection and purpose, but people were there to protest the Olympics - not its connections.

The lack of a clear message and focus keeps the movement fractured and small. While there is quite a large amount of dissatisfaction across the city with the Games and its priorities, the movement has not been able to ignite these sentiments. Most people are turned off by the everything under the sun approach to current protests and will simply allow their frustrations to simmer inside.

Likewise, direct action is not the pulse of the people. Most Canadians live comfortable and peaceful lives and while they might sympathize with those that do not, lack the necessary connection (and often the deeper understanding) needed to prompt them to start smashing corporate symbols or challenging the police.

The message needs to be more palatable and accessible. This doesn't mean it has to be diluted; far from. It needs to be strengthened. It needs to be smarter.

Well put Sean

Although I do not agree with everything you have said Sean, that was a very well put post.

I have been an activist for a long time attending protests, demo's, and riots in more than 10 different Countries and in my opinion the biggest problem has ALWAYS been infighting and lack of focus within various movements. This is one of the main reasons I ignored the Friday protest (ie... festival march.)

I still stand by direct action as it is easy to see that these actions speak for themselves... even though the vast majority of the people fail to see just that.

property damage is violence...

Scaring children is violence. Violence is thuggery. I am 100% opposed to the Owelympics, but I will not spoil this experience for anyone else by imposing my opinion. Not with violence. And if the protesters firmly stand behind their opinion I question why their faces are covered? That is a sign of cowardice. Sorry, lost me guys.

Protests

I hope the hooded protesters are all the poor and the oppressed. I also hope there is lots of representation from immigrants of colour to Canada. I can understand their wrath. I hope that the hooded protesters aren't just a bunch of middle class whites who eventually in a couple of years see this as "a great experience". Maybe they should put themselves actually in harms way, say going to the West Bank, or joining FARC, or stopping those pesky rebels in Darfur.

Ed Seedhouse

Quite right! And a very good reason to get rid of thenotion of private property!

Direct Action

While I don't condone the vandalism, I don't condemn it either. I think the protesters were pretty strategic with their targets and it didn't seem to be random or wanton.

And in fairness, I think the black bloc was pretty clear about what everyone could expect today. Those that did not agree should have just stayed away.

That being said, I can't speak about their general behaviour, which didn't seem to be very inclusive or too bright. Grabbing Geoff Dembicki's notebook and accusing him of being a cop is not only an affront to the democratic principles of freedom of the press, but downright dumb.

But the bigger question is what impact this has all had. The anti-Olympics crowd seems quite polarized around this action, with most opposed, while the general public is universally opposed (and incredibly pissed off).

I sympathize with their frustrations, but they have done more harm than good. It has almost completely alienated the general pubic and caused further fracturing within the protest movement.

explain it to me.

please, i do not get the tactic. posters are saying they are not the public and that the public supports violence. yet what would an anarchist state look like? how can a revolution take place without a revolutionary public? and what is the point of such forceful and shadowy tactics if there is no hope the public will come on board? because they certainly will not like this. i work in the downtown eastside and most of the folks i know about were not for this and some were scared. do you assume to speak for them? do you assume to speak for marginalized people that don't agree with you? or "know what's best for them"? the parallel to colonialism is evident. you have to appeal to common humanity and build grass roots movements to cause change. you have to expose the injustice so that people will really get it. is it impossible? maybe. but how do you propose to maintain justice, and where is that message for the world to see when you cover your face and smash windows? comparing to iran is ridiculous, because there is MASS support for the demonstrations. this was 200 people. if violence is ever justified, or property damage, or whatever, you need real people power on your side not tactics to just alienate yourself further. i have a feeling that exclusivity is part of the charm though. the world is fucked and injustice is everywhere, including harsh systemic oppressions right outside our door. so? how did that demonstration do a damn thing to expose it. how is an observer supposed to put that together. like...hey...you've got something there

and yeah, smashing a few windows doesn't even warrant mentioning when it comes to the violence perpetrated by corporations, by the system, by rigged trade rules, by racism, by the imf, by capitalism in general...but again, how is this tactic doing anything to stop it?

Broken windows

"Is it true? Do we really value the sanctity of private (corporate) property more than...well, pretty much anything else?"

I can't find the video link right now unfortunately, but a Hudson's Bay representative interviewed on Global IIRC (either there or CTV) was relatively unconcerned about the window breaking, characterizing it as basically a minor annoyance. Take from that what you will and remember we've seen similar levels of property destruction over lost hockey games and cancelled rock concerts in the past.

Sean Cordon

The Olympics are here, the money has been spent, the spring budget and its cuts has already been written.

So who cares if the public that elected Campbell three times now declare themselves no longer onside with the protesters? Based on the last 3 elections they obviously never were.

The responsibility for the damage should be laid at the feet of the apathetic public that didn't care about the class war against the poor we've had for 9 years.

Violence

–noun
1. swift and intense force: the violence of a storm.
2. rough or injurious physical force, action, or treatment: to die by violence.
3. an unjust or unwarranted exertion of force or power, as against rights or laws: to take over a government by violence.
4. a violent act or proceeding.
5. rough or immoderate vehemence, as of feeling or language: the violence of his hatred.
6. damage through distortion or unwarranted alteration: to do editorial violence to a text.

Rebel all you like, guys, but try not to rebel against the dictionary. Choose your battles ;-)

HBC rep

HBC reps speaks to protest in second story on Global news

http://www.globaltvbc.com/video/index.html

In watching the coverage, turns out I know one of the people arrested. I am 99.9% sure they would not have engaged in acts of violence, but won't say it for certain, simply because I wasn't there.

Frank

Public opinion is a fickle mistress (it once supported an NDP government, if I recall correctly - not that that necessarily did a lot of good for the public either).

Mass apathy is an epidemic, but is not resigning yourself to that just another form of apathy?

There has been a growing sense of disenchantment with the Games. There needs to be a way to tap into that. This direct action failed to do that (in fairness, it wasn't its intention either).

While many people might not understand the strong opposition, I believe they have a lot of problems with what they're seeing/learning about the impact and the broken promises. I expect this will be more fully realized after the Games once we see the final price tag and the lack of long-term economic benefits.

To capitalize, protesters will need to articulate a clear and concise message that everyone can relate/connect to.

Strange thinking.

"While I don't condone the vandalism, I don't condemn it either."

Seems kind of wishy-washy. Would this person say the same thing if vandalism hit his car or personal
property of value?

" think the protesters were pretty strategic with their targets and it didn't seem to be random or wanton."

Stupidity can also be added to the equation.

And in fairness, I think the black bloc was pretty clear about what everyone could expect today. Those that did not agree should have just stayed away. "

and since when does this Black Bloc have any rights over anyone else? Excuse us, but it is a public area, and we'll go where we want.

"hat being said, I can't speak about their general behaviour, which didn't seem to be very inclusive or too bright.

Dumb would be good start in the description. As for the level of brightness with these protestors,
its about as bright as an expired 40 watt lightbulb.

"rabbing Geoff Dembicki's notebook and accusing him of being a cop is not only an affront to the democratic principles of freedom of the press, but downright dumb. "

Well.. duh!!! If I were attacked by this protestor,
I might decide to work the guy over, resulting in
him writhing in pain.

"ut the bigger question is what impact this has all had. The anti-Olympics crowd seems quite polarized around this action, with most opposed, while the general public is universally opposed (and incredibly pissed off)."

yeah so? Why wouldn't the public be pissed off at the antics of this so-called protest??

" sympathize with their frustrations, but they have done more harm than good."

Crossed the line would be a good phrase to use.

It has almost completely alienated the general pubic and caused further fracturing within the protest movement.

No, it's completely pissed off the public, and eliminated any credibility if any the OLR Network had and throws shit onto Chris Shaw, who is supposed to be a manager of peaceful protests.

I hope there is a way to sue these protestors and clean out their bank accounts by those who were
injured. I'd like to see The Bay sue the OLR for damages.

But of course that isn't going to happen. We have to be comfy cozy with these troubled people and not infringe on their rights to protest even if that protest means crosses the line.

Sean Condon

"Mass apathy is an epidemic, but is not resigning yourself to that just another form of apathy?"

Of course, I expect little of BCers and have yet to be surprised. I suppose that's apathy but oh well.

"There has been a growing sense of disenchantment with the Games. There needs to be a way to tap into that."

Why? They'll be over in two weeks.

"To capitalize, protesters will need to articulate a clear and concise message that everyone can relate/connect to."

Sean, the protesters are not a political party. And as you know there is no anti-Olympics party. The only surprise is it took this long for people without a voice to demand attention.

Afghanistan, tar sands, olympic spending

But Sean and others, it is all connected.

And when people are being blown up in Marjah, and people are complaining about big windows, their cars, their cameras, it does seem pretty laughable.

No goofy anarchism

...on stolen land!

LOL LOL LOL

And the Award for Black Comedy Farce goes to...

all the pseudo-revolutionaries, pseudo-anarchists, and other leeches on society who post here the laughable comments about how rotten the system is while you are sponging off mommy and daddy or otherwise ripping off the system ("I snuck into Avatar twice"). It's this "rotten" system that supports your pathetic little lifestyles.

And just what grand scheme do you all have for reorganizing society? Should we let the geniouses of the "Black Bloc" run things?? Oh, I forgot, they are anarchists and can't run anything.

How about a socialist nirvana like, oh say, North Korea? Then we would all starve!

So why don't all you naive idealists practice some realpolitik and tell all of us capitalist lackeys how you would provide equally for 6 billion people and have a just, civil society at the same time.

And finally, those who support the destruction of this afternoon are just plain creepy. Don't expect any sympathy if you get smacked by a cop.

6 billion and civil

I always recommend this article in response to the question how can we address poverty without materially affecting the lives of the 'haves'. I don't think the suggestions in it (by ethicist Peter Singer) are unworkable,m but they do require an adjustment in our thinking.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/17/magazine/17charity.t.html

To Chris Keam

You have recommended an article by an ethicist that advocates the few obscenely rich giving away most of their money to level the playing field for the multitudes of obscenely poor. I thought it was a good article. I agree with it. There comes a point when having any more money is pointless. The obscenely rich should give until it really hurts.

However, the so far silent Friends of the Black Bloc on this discussion list will probably be apoplectic over this idea as it involves their favourite bogeyman "capitalism".

C'mon boys and girls, discard your black bandanas and expose your ideas.

I would not be surprised if

I would not be surprised if the Police were behind this, from blowing up oil wells back in the 90's to Montebello to Seattle and one only has to look at the news the last couple of years to see the charactyer of many police in BC...

Doesn't anyone (who grew up poor) remember ...

... how angry you were when you were 20 years old and knew your choices were limited to going $25,000 in debt so you can get a job that might allow you to pay it back in a decade or so, or working for minimum wage and not being able to survive on that?

These youth, many of whom are residents of the DTES, deal with this in a province with the lowest minimum wage in the country, in a city that has recently been ranked as having the most expensive housing market of any city in the world where $6 billion dollars are being spent on an extravaganza they can only afford to watch on TV - if they can afford a TV.

I was one of the photographers who had his camera swatted by a protester. I didn't like it because I haven't owned many expensive things in my life (the most expensive vehicle I've purchased was a used motorcycle), but also because just before my camera was hit the protesters were shouting, "THIS IS WHAT DEMOCRACY LOOKS LIKE!" I understand why they wear masks, hoods and sunglasses - some may have prior negative experience with police and feel anxious about having their image recorded, possibly for police to seize with a warrant later. But if they value democracy, cameras, videocams and reporters' notebooks like my friend Geoff's - as tools used by a free press - are part of the package. They know this, but I think their wariness of police and their anger over the grave injustices they experience and observe daily - combined with their youth - got the better of them.

As for the property damage, those identified as having caused specific damage will be arrested, charged and ordered to appear in court. I was about to suggest people just let justice take its course, but justice is relative. I agree with the commenter above who stated the amount of damage caused by these angry young folks is microscopic compared to that meted out by the state when it works too closely with the profit-driven corporate sector.

If I was 20 years old again yesterday, I'd have thrown something through a window too. I wouldn't have interfered with those seeking to document the action with cameras or pens, though.

Limited prespective

"... how angry you were when you were 20 years old and knew your choices were limited to going $25,000 in debt so you can get a job that might allow you to pay it back in a decade or so, or working for minimum wage and not being able to survive on that?"

So being angry means having to take it out on destruction of property does it.

Many have taken that job to pay back the $25,000.
It works out to only $208 a month. There are many people who have far larger debts owing than $25.000 and they still enjoy life.

Many went through University with half the tuition
and ended up with half that debt.

Others have lived beyond their means and are paying
more than $208 a month on their MasterCard.

Protest, but NOT violently

In my sixty some-odd years, I have been involved in many protests, for many causes. Never once have I felt the need to cover my face, or resort to violence to get my point across.

Looking at the pictures, and reading the story prove to me that those idiots deliberately set out to do violence. Otherwise why would they go to the trouble of filling eggs with red paint, carrying chains and hammers and dressing in semi-uniforms?

During my major organizing days of 30 years ago, there were two maxims we always kept in mind . . . never call a protest near "welfare wednesday, and the "rent a protestor" group will show up for any demonstration, the cause does not matter. I'm afraid that this is exactly what has happened here.

I am not a fan of the olympics, and if I lived anywhere near Vancouver I would probably have been on the streets with the legitimate protestors, but I cannot condone people who resort to the extremes of hiding their faces and intentions, behind masks and black clothes.

then isn't it pretty obvious

that since the state has guns and people willing to use them on you that the only way out of this to mobilize those that have given up?

You think things are bad now? Take a look at what is unfolding in the US. A massive, permanent underclass is forming. This will be used a model for here.

If you have never been political before, NOW is the time. Failure to act could mean whole generations lost, just as the communist bloc experience demonstrated. Or Hitler.

Frogs in slowly boiling water.

Where people learn about violence as a solution?

"So being angry means having to take it out on destruction of property does it."

Sadly, our entertainment, sports, and political systems routinely send the message that violence solves problems. So when we ask where these predominately young people learn to smash things as a means of venting their anger or dissatisfaction, one only has to watch Don Cherry on his soapbox every Saturday night, or the latest Hollywood shoot-em-up or video game to see exactly where they learned that force gets results. Those spectacles are financed by the corporations and capitalists who could, if they chose, refuse to market violence as an entertainment. Certainly our politicians aren't loath to use violence or the threat thereof as a social control mechanism.

To quote that old anti-drug commercial... "I learned it from you Dad."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-Elr5K2Vuo

"The obscenely rich should give until it really hurts."

Typically, when someone in our society won't do what they should, those in charge find ways to coerce them that can include taking their money, or property, or their freedom. The Black Bloc are playing by a different set of rules, reflecting what they see happening to people around them, but they are using the methods they have learned from our leaders. One of the common complaints I've heard from homeless people is the fact that when they are arrested for one reason or another, they typically lose what few possessions they have as part of the process, because they can't take their stuff with them, nor do they have somewhere to keep it. The 'system' destroys their stuff so to speak.

The VPD is doing a good job of keeping a handle on things and allowing dissent to occur. They have had lots of practice, so I guess we can certainly thank every other protest in the past for so many dry runs!

However, the violent protesters are unfortunately reflecting the worst aspects of a system we as a culture appear to support and finance. The difference between 'us' and 'them' is one of degree and viewpoint I think, and while perspectives differ, there's no way we can escape the reality that practices on both sides of the fence are essentially the same. We don't mind when the police or army destroy a pot harvest or opium field, right?

Who's worse? The millionaire hockey player who beats an opponent out of rage for some perceived wrong during a game, or the protester who smashes a window in defiance of the values they despise?

I'd like to see 100% peaceful protests, but I can't help thinking we are reaping what we have sown. The problem isn't that our children aren't learning the values we espouse, it's that they ARE.

Let's not sterotype anarchists!

Keep it in perspective please.There are maybe a thousand anarchists in BC and 20 Black Blocers were involved in vandalism. That is .2% of the movement, so don't generalize about anarchists. Keep in mind anarchists are as divided on tactics as the rest of you here and debate gets just as hot amongst us. Most anarchists are involved in community movements, coops, labour etc., not in breaking things up.

Angels in the real world

Good comments both, Chris Keam and Anarcho. Both make the essential statement that needs to be made here, I think: "Keep it in perspective."

Far greater crimes are committed by the State and economic elites, in the name of law, order and property rights.

We are in a real world here, not a theoretical one. And angels exist only in the priesthoods, of course. :-). lol.

So 1000 anarchists can't decide what they are?

So 1000 anarchists can't decide what they are? Very funny.

Why would anyone want to be an anarchist in a democratic society?

One only has to see Somalia as an example of anarchy (no government authority of any kind including police protection for citizens from
the criminal element).

Perhaps our anarcharists would like to go to Somalia for a direct experience of a country that is lawless and without any government to aid the citizens there.

and while we're on the subset topic, let's not
stereotype corporations. A fwe are excessively greedy many are not. Almost everything you buy comes from a company that is legally a corporation,
from the computer you are using to Google, to the camera you're using, to the bus you ride and the clothes you wear.
The premise of the protests orginally was that they were supposed to be peaceful people.

and if the so-called anarchists and ORN can't control their own kind in behaviour in protests, then it says alot about the quality talent that run these groups.

Get going on positive solutions, protest with peaceful means, and restore what little there is of the credibility of these protest movements.

watch the endless clips

of Nodar's death, and ask yourself who is promoting violence. It is being shown over and over again in Canada ...while many foreign journalists decry the outrage of such graphic footage.When an athlete dies violently it is ascribed to 'human error' and everybody moves on to see who will win the next medal. When our premier drives drunkenly down a Hawaiian highway and is arrested, it is ascribed to 'human error' and everybody moves on to re-elect him. When a few protesters perhaps act less than wisely and break a few windows, the indignation erupts.
I would find it laughable if I wasn't weeping over a needless death.

controlling behaviour

"and if the so-called anarchists and ORN can't control their own kind in behaviour in protests, then it says alot about the quality talent that run these groups."

Every single segment of society has individuals who do not conform to expectations and break rules, from bankers, to doctors, to police to politicians. Does that say a lot about the quality talent that run those groups, or simply highlight the fact that some individuals make choices we don't agree with?

The long and depressing litany of leaders and upstanding member of society who have robbed, lied, cheated or even murdered others just demonstrates that you can't make a generalized connection between individual actions and their peer group.

Ed Hardy doesn't equal Black Bloc

"you're no better than bunch of drunken Ed Hardy douchebags at a bar."

Lazily cut and pasting my comment on Frances Bula's blog re the same sentiment:

Sorry, but they totally are. Lager Louts are just folks who can’t manage to use a product as directed by its manufacturer, these protestors are directing violence towards targets they take issue with. Love ‘em or hate ‘em, realistically, there’s an ocean of difference between someone picking a fight fuelled by bravado, booze, and testosterone on a Saturday night, and an individual publicly destroying private property as a political statement.

and if the so-called

and if the so-called anarchists and ORN can't control their own kind in behaviour in protests, then it says alot about the quality talent that run these groups."

Every single segment of society has individuals who do not conform to expectations and break rules, from bankers, to doctors, to police to politicians. Does that say a lot about the quality talent that run those groups, or simply highlight the fact that some individuals make choices we don't agree with?

Well partially true, but the ORN decides to have these protests and yet doesn't enact any control over them. Sure there's bad apples in very bushel,
but let's take this in prespective. There would have needed to be at least some kind of limitations of activity that the ORN would tolerate and from what we've seen, there isn't any
in fact they have opened the gate when they said they would support ANY kind of protest. Its on their website.

Doctors have limitations of conduct. There's been many instances of medical licences being lifted,
the same for lawyers. Banker's careers have come to an end because of misconduct. If a politician gets out of line far enough, the voters will vote that person out. So what's the recourse for unruly protestors?

The long and depressing litany of leaders and upstanding member of society who have robbed, lied, cheated or even murdered others just demonstrates that you can't make a generalized connection between individual actions and their peer group.

So all of this provides an excuse for damaging property does it?

The previous poster does have a point. Example, the member of the Cdn. Forces who is accused of murder. But that does not mean all Cdn. Forces personnel are bad. A few RCMP officers have errors in judgement, leading to potting off a suspect in
Houston and the zapping of a Polish immigrant wanting to come to Canada to live with his Mom.
But those RCMP members don't make the entire RCMP
be bad.

Works both ways I suppose, but the protestors only see things one way. They see RCMP making a big error in Tasering and therefore paint the RCMP as being all bad. They see an NDP politician raid the charity cookie jar skimming off the top, and don't
say much.

Blackbird...

Absolutely right, but I'm pretty sure most of the masked "protesters" weren't these people. Most of the masked avengers were likely white, middle class citizens. I grew up poor, but certainly never involved myself in anonymous protest. When I protested, you knew who I was because my uncovered face was right there for all to see!

My daughter lives in the DTES. Owelympic decisions have directly impacted her life, very negatively. Pretty sure she wasn't one of those protesters. She's too busy just trying to survive to bother with violent protest.

I think these people like to think they are acting on people like my daughter's behalf, but they forgot to ask them if that's the way they want to be defended. Pretty sure the answer would be no. Don't scare kids, don't smash property. Pissing people off doesn't help us. Get us some REAL results from the government. Think that would be the answer.

Tactics and Respect...

Violence is not an option?

What total nonsence. Violence is just not an option when it's directed against the sanctity of ruling class property and exploitation rights, is what you really mean.

Violence, directed against the masses of this country or any other weaker country resisting its oppression, is carried out in a never ending war that has been going on for my entire life. It is just now that you, of the ruling class "public" and its supporters, are beginning to see where this contradiction in your thinking leads to.

"Bullshit, the "public" has been cheering violence for 9 years. But it turns out they only like it when the poor are on the receiving end, not their precious banks."

And Frank is right above.

Peaceful methods, at least those that don't really risk anything, have been tried and failed frankly. If the so-called "peaceful" resistance movement wants to play a real and useful role in dragging society back from this precipice, then it better get off its often too comfortable ass, and start coming up with tactics and actions that actually work, and produce quantifiable results. You gotta do better than your current hand wringing on the lawn of the art gallery, and actually put yourselves on the line a little more. It's going to take more than appearances, folks. Sorry.

Even Ghandi actually took it on the noggin and spent more time in prison than this "peaceful" resistance movement. And I actually believe all aspects of the Resistance Movement, struggling to come into being, have their roles to play in shaping the new future. It's just that handwringing, holding a sign on the lawn of the art gallety, and feeling good for putting an X on a ballot in a rigged electoral system isn't going to do it. And the measure of that is, these Rightists here actually think you are doing a good job and doing it right. They applaud your tactics. This should be telling you all something. It's called damning with praise.

When we hear them railing against you more, because what you're doing is actually effective at raising their fear level, then you'll maybe get a little more credibility and respect, from even those of us who want a peaceful strategy that works.

@BC Boy

"So all of this provides an excuse for damaging property does it? "

I really take issue when my comments, which are made to provide context, are taken as an implicit approval of methods or goals. Please don't presume to read more into what I've written than is on the screen.

thanks,
CK

yeah so?

"really take issue when my comments, which are made to provide context, are taken as an implicit approval of methods or goals. Please don't presume to read more into what I've written than is on the screen."

yeah so? You haven't stated any disapproval of the
damaging of property. How about stating that now so readers know where you stand. Here's a good
opportunity.

and to the person who stated Somalia isn't run by anacharists, that's true, but if the anarchists are against any state authority, then what's the point of being anarchist in the first place since
anarchists want to exert their own control on sitations to achieve their goals.

Somalia does not have any state authority, and since anarchists don't want any state authority, then Somilia would be an optimum enviroment for the anarchists who don't want state authority at all to live in. Think of it. A state with no state authority, no police, hundreds of days with sunny skies, and sandy beaches along the Indian Ocean.

What anarchist wouldn't want to live that no authority paradise?

Are peaceful protests automatically ineffective?

And can destructive protests ever be effective?

You make a good point, veganterraist, when you say that the destruction was mostly directed at a few large corporate sponsors. However, as others have noted, the impact on their colossal profits is likely minimal.

If the "black bloc" really wanted to make a point and cut into The Bay's bank balance at the same time, they wouldn't have smashed windows, they would have blocked the entrances. They would have stood there, shoulder to shoulder, silently on the sidewalk all day, every day.

When people came by looking to shop, they would have directed them to where they could buy an authentic Cowichan sweater that actually helps support the Cowichan people. They would have told them where to buy a red tent instead of red mittens. Or they would have had a long talk about how buying things is a seriously misguided way of showing your patriotism.

When the security and police asked them to move, they would have politely pointed out that they were standing on a public sidewalk, and that Canada is supposed to value the right to free speech and free assembly. When the police eventually pulled them away in handcuffs, they would have called out to any passers-by who believed in the right to peaceful protest to come take their place. If they were organized, they would have compatriots in the crowd ready to do so, but if the imbalance between peaceful but persistent protesters and bullying security was undeniable, I am sure that others would join them. All those people in the "festival march" on Friday were just waiting for someone to show them a more effective way to make their point.

But smashing windows is not effective. Not if you are trying to make the corporate sponsors pay, and certainly not if you are trying to convince people of the rightness of your cause, which is the only way to change the system you are protesting against.

Yes, the protest got media coverage. Yes, people around the world know that some people in Vancouver are mad as hell and they aren't going to take it anymore. They just don't know why. They certainly don't know why they should feel the same way.

When I advocated for peaceful protest, I certainly wasn't suggesting that you limit yourself to standing off to the side singing slogans and waving signs. But refusing to be pushed around is not the same as pushing back.

More of a crock.

What did the people in Vancouver expect from those excluded in society for whatever reason. If they have had their services cut and have at least been inconvenienced by an event and then see no benefit nor can they participate except as cheerleaders or puppets on a string for the corporate interests, why would they care? So a few of them protest and a few decide to do some damage. Its more likely that the ones doing the damage care less about the issues than the real protesters. That is always a risk. That may even be deliberately staged to discredit all protesters. Does that mean all those who are opposed should go home? Are we not intelligent enough to know that not all of them were engaged in vandalism or is it just so easy to say that they are all a nuisance because it deviates from our notion of how wonderful the games are? That in itself is self-serving political spin coming for either the RCMP or the VANOC/Liberal spin machine

Those who were/are excluded, why would they care about the image BC Boy and his ilk are trying to portray to the world. Their life won't change! They didn't invite the world and they don't "Believe". Hell that's life isn't it. That is what is so pathetic about the notion than circuses and extravagant displays will distract from the everyday struggle with increased costs, extra fees, taxes, HST and what not. And, they are coming.

I don't support violence either but give the rubbish about everything bad being left and everything good being Campbell Liberal a rest. It is so dumb. It is because of attitudes like this that some protesters probably feel the need to go over the top.

Why is it necessary for all to have to get on the bandwagon? What is undemocratic about standing in front of the spending stampede and yelling "STOP".? Maybe it is just standing there and as they thunder by hold up a sign that quotes Bugs Bunny, "What a bunch of Maroons." Either way arrest the people doing vandalism, fill up the jails if you have to. Oh no, can't do that! It's better to leave them out there to undermine the entire protest movement.

Love it

I wonder how many bank windows will have to be smashed before the damage equals the destruction delivered to the rivers of Bute Inlet?

But of course its okay to damage rivers, its the banks that are truly important.

Almost a quarter of kids in BC have lives that none of us would want for our kids but that's okay because its more important that we get to guzzle 350,000 cans of beer at Molson House while watching hockey.

Damn protesters ruin everything good, why can't they just stay in their designated areas and quietly hold up signs so we can ignore them and the silly issues they care about.

violence and where I stand

"yeah so? You haven't stated any disapproval of the
damaging of property. How about stating that now so readers know where you stand. Here's a good
opportunity."

I'm ambivalent about it (direct action). Sometimes it's a useful tactic. On the one hand, no one wants to see their stuff wrecked. On the other, we routinely allow the destruction of private property for goals that I disagree with, such as expropriating farmland to put in highways, whether the owner agrees or not.

So, I can't see the issue in black or white, either/or terms. As I noted upthread, the HBC representative on the news didn't seem to worked up about, so I guess I'm not going to manufacture outrage on his behalf.

Complex issue, tough questions. Thinkers greater than I have struggled with it for centuries, so I'm not going to pretend to have the decoder ring, or the final answer.

If they had walked through the DTES, grabbing and smashing the cel phones of drug dealers I think you might find favour with that direct action? (based upon your earlier comments about running drug dealers out of the East side). So, I don't think we can examine the issue without looking at the situation or circumstance. Believing in absolutes tend to lead to cessation of critical thinking in my experience.

Consider this destruction of private property. How do you feel about it. Should the message have been allowed to stand unchallenged and unblemished?

http://www.jillposener.com/photodetail.cfm?file=FiatAd.jpg&category=graffiti&CFID=9950175&CFTOKEN=92978398

BC Boy

Your rhetoric is frothing at the mouth. The world, and the reality we all inhabit, is not and can never be as black and white as you would like. That's just not the way the real world works. The real world is full of nuance and gray areas and the indeterminate confusion of almost nothing ever being absolute.

If you go over all the comments in this thread with an open mind and a willingness to learn, rather than just rabidly pontificating and speechifying, you will see that there are some very good points being made on both sides of the argument. And Chris Keam is one of the most reasoned and calm voices here. You might try to pull in your thorny testosterones and take heed.

Seriously, you (and all other rabid ranters and absolutists on both sides) could benefit by calming down and trying to understand the world from a different perspective.

Lastly, BC Boy, if you are incapable of understanding what folks such as Chris Keam are writing, and it's clear that you are, then perhaps it's time to take a breather and practice up on your comprehension skills.

you, too make excellent points

Amelia Bellamy-Royds...yet apparently those who refused to be 'pushed around' were arrested, rather than those who broke windows. Convincing others of the "rightness of the cause" is pointless, I fear...since the refusal of many British Columbians to do such a simple thing as to vote would seem to indicate a lack of intellectual rigour applied to sort out the complex issues of our times.

Myself, I think that changes to our 'system' will come about by its moral, ethical, and complete financial collapse...because the apathy of the 'public' is rather entrenched - I am not holding my breath. Myself, I understand the pain(and violence) of poverty only too well...and I can not bring myself to chastise those who choose another path of protest. Those deserving of chastisement are those NOT protesting, in my view.

veganterraist

Good work, if only there were more like you.

These were acts of vandalism. Promoting them to acts of violence is ridiculous. These weren't even acts of vandalism on "shop owners" - these were acts of vandalism on immoral corporations.

I'll bet the CEO of The Hudson Bay Company is sitting back with his scotch and cigar LOLling his head off, to see the leaders of the peaceful protest movement denouncing their more active brethren. We don't even need the corporate media to do their regular thing, when the movement itself will do their job for them.

"We do not advocate or support vandalism" is all I want to hear from leaders of peaceful protest. Anything more than that and I tune out.

"If they tried that when I was around I would knock their teeth out" is expected from certain kinds of people. But people who believe in the right to a warm dry place to sleep at night and enough food to eat during the day should be a little less protective of corporate property.

People who believe that the proportionate response to vandalism is a crack with a baton (real actual violence) have something wrong with them.

The only thing that will actually scare those with all the power is people uprising. When people who rise up get shot down by the very people who share their goals if not their tactics, then the people with all the power get confirmation that they have nothing to fear.

If you shout down people who smash a few windows, you support the immoral corporations who own those windows. You don't have to cheer vandalism, but you should be careful who you lend your support to - you won't get any favours in return for standing up for TD Bank.

exactly

Amelia Bellamy-Royds

You're exactly right in describing how peaceful protest can be effective and mobilize rather than alienate public opinion. And given the ultimate need for tax revenues to fund the stated aims of the protesters that is essential.

Unfortunately for the black bloc group that would be way less fun, far too much like hard work and completely contary to the inflexible world view which they hold onto like religious zealots.

Meanwhile a NATO rocket just killed twelve civilians sheltering in their house in Afghanistan, that's a real issue, not the shenannigans here.

ostensibly, david hadaway

the fighting in Afghanistan is to bring the concept of democracy - including free assembly and free speech - to that country.

The "shenannigans here" are all about freedom and democracy, whether you agree or not.

No peace without justice... elementary.

"...they would have blocked the entrances. They would have stood there, shoulder to shoulder, silently on the sidewalk all day, every day." Bellamy-Royds.

"they"? "they"? Always the other guy, right?

Well, Bellamy-Royds, IF you are in that "peaceful" camp,of interfering with the free movement of folks in the Bay or wherever, there's nothing standing in your way from organizing this tactic. I actually think its a good tactic.

That you're not, but only preaching it to "they", tells me you have more in common with the other rightists, status quo supporters here.

'Cause if you think THIS interference with "free" ruling class property rights is going to get you any less bopped on the noggin and thrown in jail, than say, turfing a news box through the TD bank, or less vilified in the ruling class controlled "tame" media, you don't know what the hell you are talking about. Really. Besides, you never let "your enemy or his/her supporters", decide your tactics for you.

And this is not to advocate for anything. Just common sense.

How long do you think the ruling class would listen to me telling "them" what to do?

Yup. About that long.

But giving you the benefit of the doubt here, I think your proposal is an excellent tactic for the "non-violent" resistance movement to take up. Then you can come back here later and praise them for blocking the free flow of commerce within capitalism.

I think it is a brilliant concept. Seriously.

There is one central fact that thee as well as we need to be aware of, there is not going to be any lasting social Peace without justice. You can't realistically expect anything else. And the longer it takes to get resolved, and for social and economic justice to be served, the more the Resistance, of whatever tactical preference hue, is going to grow, and take to the streets, and conspire to undermine "the system". Elementary physics, dear Watson.... or Bellamy-Royds.

continued next post...

More on No Peace Without Justice...

From previous post...

And who has brought this state of affairs down upon us is, yup, these Rightist folks above with their anti-working class, anti-union, impoverishment of the people, destruction of the social safety net, including socialized medical care etc etc since the last time folks took to challenge "the system" in Operation Solidarity in the 80s. It is they and their anti-human policies and practises who have brought this coming conflict down upon themselves and us all.

And it will not be righted without another, at least, Operation Solidarity magnitude movement that takes to the streets and the work places, organizing people to defend themselves and challenge the power structure, again. Only this time, control of it must never again be given over to the control of it by the Union Bosses. And it must be taken through to its logical conclusion of transforming the power structure, clear down to its economic base.

It's not "they" who must do it, but "we", in the homes and work places of the nation, and languishing on the streets and in the alleys of the dispossessed and sick, who need our help.

Read up on a subject before you rant about it!

BC Boy, why don't you actually read up on anarchism before you spout nonsense about it? Good start, try the Anarchist FAQ, or even Google "anarchist theory" for cripes sake. Anarchism is not chaos or disorder, but is libertarian socialism, ie it emphasizes an economy based upon worker self-management and coops. Governance through direct democratic assemblies federated together. Anarchism is better represented by the likes of Noam Chomsky and the late Howard Zinn than any chaotic individuals

OK, it's a beautiful day and

OK, it's a beautiful day and I'm going out! But...

My beef with the anarchists here is that they are self deluding and irrelevant. They chuck a box through a window, spit at a policeman, dress like Ninjas, so what? It is as effective, alluding to an earlier post, as a flea bite on a dog. In a country like Canada change on big issues such as the war in Afghanistan comes only as result of a groundswell of public opinion, and these people are in fact counterproductive in that respect.

So if the current virtually non existent violence is ineffective , what is the alternative? More violence? Worse violence? Where do you stop? As I mentioned I have seen something of the results of political terror and it isn't pretty. It's also pointless. The social changes in Northern Ireland were delayed by the bombing campaign, the stated aim of re-unification is unobtained and possibly now unobtainable.

You can indulge yourselves by playing games at the beginning of that road but don't expect anything from those of us who know where it leads except unbending opposition. You are like children playing with fire

be careful...

not to dress in black, david hadaway, or indulge in anything that might be construed as "shennanigans".

Frothing at the Mouth

There are enough specious arguments being posted here to drown an Anarchist. For example, what garbage to argue that any of what went on yesterday with the "protesters" was about freedom and democracy.

The protesters are not what you would call deep thinkers, as some of the posts here show. The slogans and simple minded party lines in many of these postings are very revealing. These people look at the world in black and white, much like Fundamentalist Christians or right wing shock jocks. The protesters are rebels without a cause and have no credibility.

And what they absolutely don't have, for all their religious zeal, are solutions to any of the social problems they claim to be so concerned about.

Time to go watch more of the Olympics.

Teams and Sponsors

What does one tell out-of-town friends that ask what being protested? Well, it's complicated.

The armchair commanders urge the protesters on because their side is just loosing all the time.

The protesters and their commanders cry out about:

The Homeless; Provincial responsibility.
The Oil Sands; Provincial (Alberta) responsibility.
Afghanistan; NATO obligation for Canada (Federal), initiated by a Liberal government (without parliamentary debate).
Child Poverty as compared to other provinces; in one of richest countries in the world! (won't get much sympathy from anyone outside Canada for that.
7 years of Gordon Campbell; the opposition in the province isn't winning elections.
Indian Lands; (almost exclusively spoiled white kids appropriating this theme) even though all four local tribes are enthusiastically involved and supporting the games, and many others are involved too.
One guy even protest saying we have to save the planet.
Capitalism; is there any alternative that has brought so many out of poverty? This isn't changing soon and the commanders know it and they are seriously at their wits end. So, send out the jerks into the streets and see if they can ferment a revolution. Might as well because this democracy thingy sure ain't working. Too bad if a few go crazy and get whacked, that might even spur the 'cause' on a bit. Collateral damage.
(http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/commentary/humanitys-rise-from-poverty-slays-the-naysayers/article1465567/)

The athletes and the Games go on with sponsors logos worn with pride on banners and uniforms; Royal Bank, Bell Canada, Sleep Country, Weston Bakeries, etc., etc.

The protesters go on with their uniforms too and their logos too, maybe hand drawn and crude but it's basically the same game.

One side with pride and joy after years of working hard and a positive, inclusive theme in a global fraternity.

The other side with hate, negativity, destructive vandalism and aggressive and threatening insults to our city's visitors. When most of the protests are directed towards issues that the city of Vancouver has absolutely no responsibility for.

Meanwhile, Vancouver Mayor Gregor Robertson is on the front page of yesterday's Globe and Mail speaking hopefully that the Games will bring corporate development.

It has been said that the hard-core vandals number just a few. Their actions will certainly not forward any of their mish-mosh of discombobulated causes and their minuscule number as proved by the record breaking tv viewing numbers;

"VANCOUVER, Feb. 13 /CNW/ - Live coverage of the Vancouver 2010 Olympic Winter Games Opening Ceremony Friday night by Canada's Olympic Broadcast Media Consortium has made history as the most-watched television event ever in Canadian history."

Things are looking up.

Categories and communication

What a conversation! I think if one were to count the categories that we are claiming either for ourselves or for each other the total would be impressive.

All this is good communication, mostly verbal. The protest was also all about communication, mostly non-verbal. A lady above said that throwing a Province box through a bank window is not effective communication. She's maybe right, but I saw the picture, and that was very effective communication. It delivered a huge message on many levels, from political to metaphoric, that picture.

When people dressed in black or white, that was communication. When police spies wear steel-toed boots in compliance with Worksafe BC regulations for their occupation, that communicates something too. Something quite telling. And the people who assign them to that duty are also showing their fear and their awareness of the true situation clearly.

Wear a mask or publish your name, and you tell us what you feel, and who you fear.

Ask any three people for their true opinions on any complicated topic and you will surely get five definate answers. The important part is that these categories are all valid, and they are all effective.

The protest, just the fact of it alone, makes me proud of the people who went there. This conversation makes me proud of all of you, if that's permitted.

You all give us hope for the future, even those of you dedicated to scotching such hope. Keep it up, please. Keep talking and marching and shouting and arguing. Something is bound to emerge from it all. Maybe even something good.

Take the Anarchist Test!

With all this (usually ill informed) talk about anarchism, it is time to take the Anarchist Test!

Do you believe;

1. that corporations should predominate in most areas

2. or that government should run most things

3. or that the economy and society should be more on a cooperative basis and that you should have a say over all important aspects of your life.

If you answer "no" to questions 1 and 2 and "yes" to question 3, you are politically closer to being an anarchist than either a state socialist or capitalist.

excellent points, Bailey...

It is critical to remember that no group, no matter how large - and most assuredly, no one person, x4estworker - define(s) democracy. Democracy is defined by the people that participate in it...and it is a vast, messy, complex thing...

"... a vast, messy, complex thing..."

"The protest, just the fact of it alone, makes me proud of the people who went there. This conversation makes me proud of all of you, if that's permitted.

You all give us hope for the future, even those of you dedicated to scotching such hope. Keep it up, please. Keep talking and marching and shouting and arguing. Something is bound to emerge from it all. Maybe even something good." Bailey.

Amen, Bailey. You are good man. I have always known you are. :-)

And, "Democracy is defined by the people that participate in it...and it is a vast, messy, complex thing..."

And the definitions and expectations of it evolve and change over time, just as everything else does. Nothing remains as it is forever. We are again approaching such another transformational point, certainly in the history of our society.

"...a vast, messy, complex thing..."

That's for true. :-)

Excellent point, ViveanLea.

At your wits end

Much of the violence I see, happens when no alternative can be found.

There are many who are going hungry and homeless today. They are many with little dignity and hope today.

The takers work 24 / 7 / 365 days a year, aware and uncaring of their destructive nature.

Violence does not appeal to me, but I sure understand why it happens.

VivianLea Doubt

Democracy doesn't give anyone or any group a licence to carry out any type of action. You seem to think that whatever is fine as long as the protesters are hiding behind a facade of democratic protest.

What about my right to walk down the street and not be assaulted by some creep wearing a mask, as described in the above story? What's the difference between that and being mugged?

Don't be so naive.

Some More Reality to Shine Upon the Subject

Without exception every movement that has sought to improve our situation has been divided by a number of tactical differences. The Abolitionist movement had non-violent practitioners but also Old John Brown. The Chartist Movement which sought universal manhood suffrage had its "physical force" wing as well as its "moral force" majority. The movement for women's suffrage had a minority that went window-smashing and other forms of vandalism. Trade unionists have traditionally beaten the shit out of scabs and many a time have gone mano a mano with the cops. The Civil Rights Movement had a Black Power armed faction. Why should contemporary struggles be any different? This does not mean that I endorse "violence" , but it is the reality of the situation, that different means will be tried.

And while I am about it, how is it that every other political tendency has a moderate wing, a centrist group and an extreme wing, yet we anarchists are not supposed to?

Raving and Sanity...

"Why should contemporary struggles be any different? This does not mean that I endorse "violence" , but it is the reality of the situation, that different means will be tried." Anarcho.

This is all just too much nuance and complexity here, for the Rightist Ravers, Anarcho. They have no tendency to analysis, but only to rave at those who threaten their riches and their monopoly authoritarian power within the economy.

Then there is, in the next instant, that precious gem that exchudes simple honesty and insight, from a voice that is still sane. " Violence does not appeal to me, but I sure understand why it happens."

Noggy, I sure as hell hope you hang around here for awhile.

Anarchy test is questionable to say the least

An anarchist supporter sez:

"With all this (usually ill informed) talk about anarchism, it is time to take the Anarchist Test!

Do you believe;

"1. that corporations should predominate in most areas"

Yes - if there is the economic will and the cost
effectiveness to grow a business. Remember folks,
corporations are not nessesarily Big Business as
seen in New York or Toronto.

"2. or that government should run most things"

No not most things. Government should not be involved in business such as railways and ferries
for example.

3. or that the economy and society should be more on a cooperative basis and that you should have a say over all important aspects of your life.

Depends on what is meant by co-operative. Done in
a "co-operate with me" or collectively.

You do have a say in all important aspects of your life. Far much more here in Canada than in some
countries.

If you answer "no" to questions 1 and 2 and "yes" to question 3, you are politically closer to being an anarchist than either a state socialist or capitalist.

Kind of simplistic outcome. Anarchy is basically wanting no state control. Aside from the rhetoric
of following anarchist heroes of the people, go to any dictionary and you'll see the basic aspects of
anarchy. Read any political science textbook on the several forms of political ideaology. It's all there.

Anarchy is not equated to collective governance nor socialist thought. It's total abolition of state control.

Someone needs re-education.

BC Boy, why don't you actually read up on anarchism before you spout nonsense about it? Good start, try the Anarchist FAQ, or even Google "anarchist theory" for cripes sake. Anarchism is not chaos or disorder, but is libertarian socialism, ie it emphasizes an economy based upon worker self-management and coops.

Bullshit. This means that in some form there would need to be some kind of authorative control over the masses. Self-management of workers doesn't work in manufacturing at some point someone has to
be in charge, and the so-called anarchist country
would need direction, therefore state control. What the definition is getting close to is Soviet
style collectivism not anarchy in its purest form.

"Governance through direct democratic assemblies federated together."

State control at that point, which does not equate anarchy in its basic defination. Statement sounds like Soviet Communism than anarchy.

"Anarchism is better represented by the likes of Noam Chomsky and the late Howard Zinn than any chaotic individuals

and idiotic protestors who decide it is within their right to disrupt events and damage properties.

Re-read the basic definitions of anarchy rather than pathatic twists of definations as set by Chomsky and others (including the left wing nuts in
this commentary comic strip.)

oh RLY?

Dude.
You are *so* not grokking the optics here.
Smashing stuff+threatening people = send in the cops and kick some ass. Doesn't matter if you have a legitimate complaint or if the system blows chunks, because some poor schmuck who owns a hot dog stand sees that and goes, hey - I'm poor, but these jerks might smash up my hot dog stand.
You "divide" your potential supporters instead of "multiplying" them.
And of course, smashing stuff permits the ever-growing "security" arm of the capitalist movement to gather up ever more resources as they work at devising new methods of control. Right now, there's a businessman making plate glass who no doubt supports you whole-heartedly.
Basically, you show impotent rage which accomplishes nothing except to give more legitimacy to a police state and ensures that "creative destruction" by morons continues apace.
What parts of this do you not understand?
If you want to play politics kiddo, play to win.
And you will *not* win by the means espoused by some on this board, because "the system" owns all the cards.
So listen and understand that if you are looking for legitimacy (or at least to muster political credibility), the first thing to do is disavow violence. Completely. Cut those who would be violent out of your "movement" immediately, publicly and remorselessly. You need to earn trust as being "reasonable", because the majority of civil society sees violence as unreasonable. It does not matter what *you* believe or think.
Second, you must act in a manner that disengages from all capitalist production. That means realizing that everything you break would invariably be repaired of re-purchased using the "system" (the "fixing the window" thing) you hate so very very much. So you can't enter into the production process (producing violence only ensures the opposing side purchases that much more) AT ALL.
Third - since public property is under assault by privatization, it would be of greater utility to act in a public space. This demonstrates again that you are law abiding and, in choosing a widely recognized spot, plays to public sentiment.
Finally, show your face. If you haven't noticed, the wider public tends to want a "recognition" factor - a person or persons to whom they can ascribe these principled, dignified, entirely legal responses to inequities to.
And then you begin your mass hunger strike.
See how it works?
This is how you *GAIN* support and avoid all the rhetorical garbage foisted by the press. Honestly - think about it. 100 morons dressed for Halloween and acting like A.D.D. kids is not a big problem for the state or media to handle. They can take you down in so many ways - and draw wide support while doing it.
But 100 people sitting down in a very public space and refusing to eat is several orders of difficulty harder to demonize. That's VERY effective anarchy.
But that would also be serious politics.
You game?

I can no longer give energy to this post...

I have read every comment on this post and I refuse to give one more ounce of energy to the discussion. As an activist I come across people like BCBoy and others daily and that saps enough of my energy. To see most of the comments on this post make me realise that there is no point trying to get any point across to people who refuse to listen.

I have already stated my full name on this post and if anyone is ever in Victoria, stop in at the anarchist bookstore and ask for me as I volunteer there often. I would be happy to have any meaningful discussions on the topic.

I leave you with a poem myself and my best friend wrote which reflects my opinions on the matter. I am and always will be a proud black/red/green mask wearing anarchist. Wearing a mask does not mean I have anything to hide, it is symbolism which is lost on so many people here.

Ba Ba Blind Sheep

We have the shepherds…

These are the people who train, (a more polite word than brainwash) us from birth to blindly follow the ‘rules’ of society. Rules. Set in motion by these shepherds in order to keep us in a state of fear and conformity which inables us to question anything. They make us believe such rules exist “for our own good”, to salvage the order they work so hard to install. We call this ‘herding’. The shepherds use this method of herding to keep us under constant surveillance and to perform their bidding at all times. Their constant presence makes us believe that if it were not for them, we wouldn’t be able to find our own way. And so we shelter the slavery we so much despise.

We have the sheep…

This is the large majority of the remainder of us… Us. Anyone who is not a shepherd. The people who allow fear to be common place in their lives. People afraid to question the utter chaos that soaks into every fiber of being. Sheep are in constant need of guidance because somewhere along the line they have lost the ability to think for themselves, or even worse, they once had that ability and instead allowed others to dictate their lives for them because of the believed simplicity. They make every effort to look, act and think like other sheep, while struggling to perform the tasks they were given better than the others, as to call the attention of the shepherd and be granted with even more work and a pat on the head as a reward. This homogenization makes it easier for the shepherds to substitute the sheep; they matter only as numbers, never as individuals. Sheep work extremely hard to sustain themselves but at the end of each cycle the shepherds take everything. We call this, ‘Being Fleeced’.

We have the dogs…

These are used by the shepherds to intimidate the sheep. They are “trained” by them to punish those sheep who behave inadequately. Their main weapons are fear and ignorance, but they are fearful and ignorant themselves. Dogs abuse their power by biting, hurting and sometimes even killing the sheep, but their friendship with the shepherds justify their every action by stating it is all for the safety of the herd.

ba ba blind sheep- part 2

We have the Wolves…

This category is most peculiar. In most cases the wolf is a dominant figure, the hunter. But on this rare occasion the wolf is the hunted… We have small pockets of wolves spread throughout the plains of this disturbed existence, but we are becoming extinct. Wolves are independent and able to think for themselves; they dictate their own rules and have no need of a herd to follow; they have to hunt their own food instead of eating that which is given to them. Astray sheep can become wolves, but they are too afraid and comfortable to imagine a free life. Wolves challenge the shepherd, they threaten the sheep. Threaten not with promise of death, but with the promise of the truth. For this we are being oppressed and even terminated, as the shepherds have an arsenal so vast it is incomprehensible… and even the sheep are on their side.

The Truth…

There are no shepherds, there are no sheep, there are no wolves or dogs. There is no such thing as dominance over another sentient being, no such thing as blind guidance or unchallenged rules. No work, status or herd is imposed on you; only you can choose to live by them or dictate your own. Shepherds are only shepherds because we give them the power to call themselves such; dogs can hurt and oppress us only because we let them so; wolves can only be a threat when we see them as one; sheep are blind just because they won’t open their eyes. Take their names off, bare their ranks, dare to be unlabeled, be free from lies. Be your own shepherd, and decide which road to walk on; be your own dog, and protect yourself from fear and laws; be your own wolf, and defy those who try to take freedom from you.

But never, ever, be a sheep.

Anarcho - Violent Resistance Movements

Anarcho, you argue in support of a violent wing for the Anarchists.

One of the most well-defined examples of a political movement with a violent wing was the very violent struggle in Northern Ireland to take Northern Ireland away from British control, and reunite with Ireland to form a republic. All English politicians, and the vast majority of the population in the British Isles, did not take the Irish Republican movement seriously until the Irish Republican Army was starting to fall apart because its campaign of violence was failing. British intelligence had so thoroughly infiltrated the IRA that many senior IRA members were rats.

Sinn Fein began to move away from the provisional IRA because they wanted a political solution. Eventually the Provisionals declared a complete cease-fire and the political solution that is in place today came about.

Even with that political solution, Sinn Fein, who largely represents the Catholic Irish, shares power with the leaders of the Protestant Irish and England is still very involved in Northern Ireland.

In other words, the provisional IRA in the end had very little impact on the political outcome. They were on the verge of falling apart when Sinn Fein decided it would be best to seek a political compromise. That political compromise fell far short of what Irish Catholics were originally seeking.

So in answer to your question, the so-called "Black Bloc" tactics eliminate any credibility the protest movement may have had to start with. Just look around at the news blogs in Vancouver, and the overwhelming sentiment is that the Black Bloc are a bunch of assholes who should be thrown in jail. They have completely distracted the general public from any legitimate message the protesters may have been trying to get out.

Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose......

A lot of the difficulty in finding an effective means of protest, I think, if we are honest, is the reality of how deeply enmeshed we all have become in the corporate crew's co-option/raid of all our meaningful symbols.

They have been baiting and reeling far too many of us in. Few of us escape it. Look at the paper work that now defines our lives. Where our pension funds are invested etc. etc? The result? The subterfuge implicates almost all of us in its crimes. And it is not as easy as it looks to extricate ourselves from this tangled weave.

Everything, every... thing.... in this world has become extremely interwoven, melded one to the other. A terrible tapestry whose democratic threads now knit themselves tightly into and alongside more fascist ones. To the point that we cannot separate them one from the other. These slyly entangled threads now serve the free market...where very little now is defined in terms of whether it is good for the people.... and where almost everything is defined in terms of whether it is good for the free market.

Arundhati Roy says it so well here, I would like to quote her:

Quote:

"But what I think is beginning to be very clear now — whether it’s the courts or whether it’s the media or whether it’s all the other institutions of democracy, they’ve been sort of hollowed out, and just their shells have been replaced, and we play out this charade. And it’s much more complicated for people to understand what’s going on, because there’s so much shadow play." End of quote

I think she nails it here.

So much has been emptied of meaning, the human map torn up - that is our dilemma - to find what is meaningful and re-name and re-invent it. (For this very reason, I like what Bailey says above about the non-verbal, because at this point in time so much of the verbal is being used to confuse and betray us.)

These are interesting, and challenging times.

And in that vein of thought: Is it really "peace" we want? Because all those millions spent on security have been put in place, I would humbly suggest, to guarantee exactly that.

A stable, silent peace.

In fact, I would further, and again most humbly ;-) suggest that that is exactly what all the security is about.

To ensure a state of utter predictability.

For the free market forces.

In a complicated world that has become largely "shadow play" it is worth considering whether it is really peace we want?......or is it freedom?

"I have read every comment

"I have read every comment on this post and I refuse to give one more ounce of energy to the discussion."

So why the post here?

"As an activist I come across people like BCBoy and others daily and that saps enough of my energy."

yeah so? I've run acrosss left wing and right wing
types (libertarian kooks) and they are good easty targets.

"To see most of the comments on this post make me realise that there is no point trying to get any point across to people who refuse to listen."

Especailly when supporting protestors who decide
to damage private property to get their points across?

"I have already stated my full name on this post and if anyone is ever in Victoria, stop in at the anarchist bookstore and ask for me as I volunteer there often."

Selecting the comic books?

"I would be happy to have any meaningful discussions on the topic."

Wouldn't happen.

"I leave you with a poem myself and my best friend wrote which reflects my opinions on the matter. I am and always will be a proud black/red/green mask wearing anarchist."

Sure, not wanting to show your face?

"Wearing a mask does not mean I have anything to hide, it is symbolism which is lost on so many people here."

No it means you're afraid to show your face.Not much more than that.

tactics must adapt to and reflect a situation

Activist/protest tactics must adapt to and reflect a given situation. This is a fluid question. It's not about whether a particular tactic is right or wrong, but whether it is beneficial to a cause or movement in a given situation.

Contrast yesterday actions with those of more radical elements at Seattle WTO protests. In Seattle, a massive coalition of activists had converged on a major globalization conference - I actually sympathized with crimes against property in that context because I felt it was a legitimate, spontaneous expression of protester intensity and police over-reaction of that moment. A lot of the window braking in Seattle happened in reaction to tear gas, batons, arrests and police violence, and efforts to crush dissent.

Yesterday in Vancouver - completely different. A relative small crowd of peaceful demonstrators; and a handful of anarchists not reacting to anything more than a desire to create headlines and attention. Their actions seemed wau out of sync with the context. The context did not call for or justify vandalism. Hence, the protester message was lost and irreparably damaged. Yes, the BLack Bloc tactic achieved international media coverage, but no understanding or sympathy in that coverage - unlike the Battle in Seattle, and various other violent protests or picket lines that see police as a more obvious arm of an unjust state.

The lesson: Pick your battles and tactics according to situation. And when you do something that's sure to provoke a police response, ensure you are buffered by a few thousand comrades who at least share the overall vision of protest, even if they don't support your tactics. These masked morons yesterday not only looked like thugs, but they alienated the majority of the peaceful 100-200 others who had come to engage in peaceful protest.

Provocateurs?: possibly, almost certainly yes, amid this group, but I think this theory is too often used by activists to avoid tough questions about tactics, or is used to simply avoid acknowledging that our side screwed up bad by letting a few hotheads crash and ruin the party.

I'd love to see lots and lots more, BIG Olympic street protests, but the kind that win public & media sympathy rather than the sort that alienates everyone. Street theatre, humour, red tents, vigils, the poverty olympics, all that sort of stuff in the current Vancouver Olympic context is gonna get far more mileage than some image of a disguised punk throwing a chairs through a department store window and chasing terrorized tourists down the street.

If 300,000 angry people start turning our to anti-Olympic protests, and police start gassing and beating people up randomly, then, maybe then, throwing a mailbox through a window might be better appreciated or at least understood. But that ain't gonna happen at this Olympics.

fair warning...

x4estworker. I find it a bit of a hoot to be called naive at my age, but do stop using my words out of context, or you will get into trouble.
I do not condone violence, but I refuse to denigrate those who are willing to damage property - and to bear the legal/other consequences - to draw attention to those who get away with more serious crimes against humanity.

Nice work.

I don't like the Olympics. Or more accurately, I don't like the way the Olympics suck up public resources and turn them into private profit. However, I also don't like violence - whether it's directed against people or property.

In my view, violence isn't just an "option" you can choose from a list. It should be a last resort and justified by the circumstances. I support the peaceful protestors to the point of peaceful disobedience - like blocking the torch run. When it comes to a bunch of people running around breaking shit, they've crossed the line. It isn't at all clear to me (and probably not to most people) what message they were trying to send. It certainly isn't clear that they looked at alternatives before they resorted to breaking shit.

The Alissa Westergard-Thorpe, Chris Shaw and the ORN have taken a huge credibility hit by refusing to condemn the vandalism. And I take their refusal to condemn it as evidence that this is NOT the work of agent provocateurs.

Nice work.

VivianLea Doubt - Them's Fighten Words

So on the one hand you blast me because I think there are limits to freedom of expression (e.g. at the extreme, legally you can’t yell “FIRE” in a crowded theater), but on the other hand you refuse to condemn the low lifes that think it's okay to put a newspaper box through a plate glass window.

So, which is it? If you refuse to condemn the violence then you're saying that whatever form of expression the wing nuts choose is okay.

As to what constitutes a "serious crime against humanity", the companies that produce goods and services to meet human needs generally work within the system. Yes, some of them are too powerful and too cozy with governments. What exactly do you define as a "serious crime against humanity"?

And as I said quite explicitly earlier on today in another post, tell me about a better system and how that would work to meet the needs of 6 billion people and be fair to all. You can't, can you? You are content to sit back and criticize without putting forward any alternate solution.

The big flaw with the lefties that support the Olympic Resistance Network, and the ORN itself, is that they all are producing a lot of hot air (adding to global warming?) without proposing any reasonable solutions. And you wonder why very few people take you seriously.

vegantrraist and buddies

A good rule for parables is keep them short. If you don't they can start to fall apart and read like deranged rambling. I mean, you're surprised that the average sheep prefers a shepherd to wolves?

Anyway to you the people ( creating wealth and paying taxes ) are sheep. You, in your imagination, are a wolf. If my guess that you live on some kind of public assistance is true then that is sort of right, you do live off them. Even if you're not, just reflect on the meaning of your contempt for those sheep. Could you build or man the ferry that brought you from Victoria? Those sheep did. Could you hew the wood that built your home, design the generators that give it electricity, install and maintain that and all the other services that you rely on? No? Those sheep can and do. but you know better than them. You and your supporters have been given an insight that is denied to them - in your dreams.

Others have mentioned the concept of a political and paramilitary wing of a movement, the IRA / Sinn Fein is the obvious example in the English speaking world. I make no secret of my loathing of the IRA but accept that it was necessary for the British Government to negotiate with them. Not because of their violence, however, but because Sinn Fein was consistently able to demonstrate its popular support. What popular support are you anarchists able to attain? Nothing statistically significant, even to have a "riot" in Vancouver you have to bring in the rent-a-mob!

The issues of corporate infiltration of the public realm, the debasement of politics and the environment, the degradation of public discourse are real. They are being faced by serious minded people who constantly but respectfully try to put the truth in front of those that you so arrogantly call "sheep", who are in fact the People, the foundation and substance of society.

And I note that none of the "anarchists" or their apologists answer my last question about violence. Where and how do you stop?

david hadaway

"And I note that none of the "anarchists" or their apologists answer my last question about violence. Where and how do you stop?"

When the last salmon has been barbequed? When the last river has been dammed? When the Children's Ministry is abolished? When the curtain falls on the closing ceremonies?

Somehow I think your party will find a way to continue its attacks on those who can't defend themselves. You'll find new fronts in your ongoing war, you always do.

Clad in black

protesters, I find this to be interesting wonder what you would find out about them if you were to grab one of these guys and haul them off in a nice quiet corner rip off their black masks and grab their IDs?

Government used to run a rail road in this Province now that gordo has sold it off to his friends the business community that supports him are whining about lack of competition and high rates.

Suck it up boys, you earned it and I hope it causes you a lot of grief and cash!

Glen Murtz

"So listen and understand that if you are looking for legitimacy (or at least to muster political credibility), the first thing to do is disavow violence. Completely. Cut those who would be violent out of your "movement" immediately, publicly and remorselessly."

Sure, but your side first. When your side has a conversion on the Road to Damascus and decides a violent, dog-eat-dog society is no longer what they want then call us.

Underfed Kids - Yes; Protesters - NO

Rick W said:

"Or are you saying the underfed kids in this country deserve what they get?"

I DID say that we should have a "just, civil society" in the part you quoted from my post. That means a society where people get what they strive for through the democratic process, and not though little children in grown up bodies running amok in the streets.

Underfed kids get my donations to the food bank (and I know that is a very poor way to deal with underfed kids). The protesters get my absolute contempt and my wish that they personally get back exactly the violence they give.

the violence will escalate

if not at these olympics, certainly somewhere else.

Those that think change will occur through peaceful protest need to reflect on the history of change and the movements that have produced dramatic changes in the way society thinks.

In the last half century I can think of only two protests (of any consequence) that didn’t involve direct violence on the part of those seeking change (although violence was associated with these movements, it wasn’t the protestors that became violent).

The first was the women’s (feminist) movement. This was driven primarily by middle class women that decided it was time to expose male violence and oppression. These women protested for greater employment access and equality in terms of wages, access to top level managerial positions, political clout and, most importantly, general acceptance as human beings.

The second was the gay/lesbian movement.

Although women and gays/lesbians are still struggling, they have “won” part of their battle and they continue to fight … nonviolently.

But the protest being leveled at the olympics isn’t as neatly contained as the gender issues of women’s rights and the sexual preferences of the gay/lesbian movement. The anti-olympic protest is about corporate and political power, and the unending violence that results from the its abuse (multibillion dollar parties for the already-wealthy).

If anyone doubts that the violent behaviour of protesters isn’t having an impact on our “leaders”, they need to pay attention to the rants of folks like Gordon Campbell who resorted to claiming that “the protesters are self-centered and selfish and in many cases, cowardly. What Campbell doesn’t realize is that these are the labels that define the corporate and political world we live in. A world where violence is not only profitable, it is necessary to keep economies from collapsing. And these folks will use whatever force is necessary to control those that want to interfere in corporate and politcal goals.

Unfortunately, for the corporate/political types, this tactic will cease to be effective when the ranks of (jobless and homeless, those lacking meaningful social security nets, and those without any meaningful input into the way they are being treated) those that find themselves in pain becomes large enough to scare the crap out corporate and political leaders.

There’s a reason why a billion plus dollars has been spent on security, and it has nothing to do with foreign terrorists.

Frank

You are evading the question by answering 'when', not 'where' or 'how'.

Please don't tar me with the brush of other people's evil acts, motives or opinions, which are clearly not mine.

david hadaway

"Where and how do you stop?"

First we'd have to begin before we worry about how we stop. But my point was more when will the other side stop? Because violence has been working for them and I'd be interested in reading any posts you made to blogs that their disciples might read, asking them how and where they plan to stop.

"Please don't tar me with the brush of other people's evil acts, motives or opinions, which are clearly not mine."

Clearly not yours? I have no idea what your opinions are except for what you've said on this thread.

the score....

THE GAME: To unify sympathizers and supporters to your cause for greater strength, and fracture unity and strength of the opposition.

PROFILES:
ON ONE SIDE: Thousands of security officials with almost a billion dollars at their disposal, with years of strategic planning to make the brand Vancouver 2010, the BC Liberals, the federal Conservatives and the Olympic games, appear to be a 'success'.

ON THE OTHER SIDE: Thousands, perhaps millions, of British Colombians and Canadians who see the $6 billion spent on the games as an inappropriate use of tax payer money. Individually, rather weak. As a well unified group, extremely powerful.

Period : 1st of 3

The Score:
VANOC/IOC/BC LIBERALS/CONSERVATIVES: 1
BC NON-SUPPORTERS OF OLYMPICS 2010: 0

Deciding winning moment in first period: Ability of one side to identify and fully exploit weaknesses in the opposition to score points with mass media and public perception, and score goal.

Thoughts on beginning of 2nd period: Non-supporters of Vancouver 2010 must regroup, identify opposition's weaknesses (inablity of police/riot cops to respond to subversive acts expressed with humour, irony, and creative non-violent anti-corporate acts, etc.), and attack full force with their strengths in agitprop, creativity, humour, style and subversive acumen.

This game can still go to anyone.

But please, oh please, not Gordon Campbell.

SINCE WHEN IS TRAUMATISING WOMEN AND CHILDREN PROTESTING?

“Those fascistic black flags and masked faces, the nascent violence they seemed to keen for. It was palpable. This was the same group that terrorized a group of mothers and their children at the Chinese Cultural Centre on Thursday, imprisoning them in that building and screaming at them for an hour. What did those little children do to deserve that assault, disturbingly reminiscent of mob violence earlier in the city’s history? Their actions were so incredibly insensitive to the racial history of this city it was shameful.”

This is terrorism, and should be treated by the authorities as terrorism.

These black masked faced people who commit such terrorism are “thugs”; they act like “thugs” and they should be treated like “thugs”. (In this case no restraint should not be taken on the part of authorities).

Treat them, publically, like the “thugs” that they are and see if this sends a message!

We are a civil society that has no tolerance for “thug-gery”.

SUSANOPERA

Not true, we love thuggery. We've elected a thug 3 times and he in turn has inflicted pain on many citizens.

Campbell had his mugshot on the internet while most protesters were still in school. Was he a thug then?

He had inflicted pain on a lot of women who worked cleaning hospitals, even the Supreme Court said he was wrong to do so. Is that being a thug?

He reduced the wages of people at the bottom and he cut the funds going to build low-cost housing. But in your eyes when a person breaks a window they're a thug, when they break a person or a family they're a great leader.

When you extend people's pain by cutting hospital operating room one is not a thug, when you protest against that you are?

BC loves thuggery and violence, just not when its directed at banks. One thing we are not is a "civil society". That's just a myth we like to tell ourselves because we don't have to see the results of our government's actions up close and personal. Its too easy to remain ignorant.

non violent civil disobedience

Upon some sober reflection it seems to me that the actions of this black clad mob were so stupid and counterproductive that quite likely agent provocateurs played a role in fomenting such. Who benefits? The Olympic establishment and their bloated security. Genuine anarchos can try crying to PETA about mistreatment.

Hooligans, really, not activists!

Same kind of people who would smash a bus stop!

Brave, until anyone stands up to them.

I have been a demonstrater, and encountered the A-holes!

At the same time, the peaceful environmental movement has seen an accumulation of compromise and 'balanced approach' that has only added to ecosystem(s) strain and collapse.

As a kid, i thjought vthe olympics were about sport, fair competition and sportsmanship (watch how little advertising and hype there was in the media in 1976).

Now it has become a schill for corporations and selling stuff; paid for mostly by taxpayers; flaunting unhealthy crap (McD's, Cola; Debt with Visa); and benefitting cronies financially!

I'm waiting until after the economic/natural disaster, before real, effectived re-design happens

"Enlightened State Terror..."

If it's masked faces, and all the paraphernalia for war gear that terrifies you, check out those cops; masked, armed to the teeth, and using provocateurs and unrestricted "official" State violence. That was a real scary sight, up against much smaller numbers of demonstrators.

But all the Rightists miss that of course, and sees only the masked uniforms of the Anarchists... what they want to see. But get used to it, is my bet. We are going to see a steady parallel escalation now on the Resistance side of this class war equation that is emerging, to more and more effectively deal with this "official" terror.

And as for terrifying women and children-, as the US Empire Forces, which include this country, in Afghanistan are so fond of saying to rationalize THEIR terrorism, innocent civilians are always the "collateral damage" of their wars (plural). I'll bet there are a lot of really terrified women, children AND peasant men, the latter who bleed too, in southern Afghanistan today, huddled in their mud huts in terror of the advancing, armed to the teeth foreigners, which again include us. To say nothing of the 12 of the same poor family, totally wiped out, in their home yesterday, by these foreign occupiers from Amerika and elsewhere.

Alongside this "official" slaughter of The State and its armed thugs in that country, you. nor I don't know a fraction of what real terror is. You were merely briefly "inconvenienced". (To say nothing of the terror known to the women and children forced by the threat of starvation into prostitution in this "enlightened" Capitalist country.)

As the Rightist Terror Squads in this country are so fond of saying here all the time, "Give us a break."

You folks aren't against violence, so long as its State sanctioned violence, and directed against other people, anyone but yourself. It's only when your tolerance of this violence comes finally up against a like resistance and closer to home, that you become suddenly indignant, and filled with the thoughts of a "hypocritical peace".

It's going to grow and intrude more and more into your comfortable life. Get used to it. Because their really is no social peace without social justice.

And that's not an advocacy of anything, just a simple fact of life, and the law of cause and effect.

my last comment

Frank, I've certainly felt free to express opinions elsewhere on, for example, the pointless waste and misdirection of the security budget. A billion spent out the Olympic trough and they can't even stop you lot getting downtown!

But that's not the issue here. Once again you evade the question about the extent of your commitment to violence, this time by the classic trick of pointing to the misdeeds of others. I understand why you don't want to answer but don't imagine this semantic trickery fools anyone.

As to Agents Provocateur, give me a break. We all know they exist but frankly only wilful self deception could make anyone think they were in action here. Look at the extensive film coverage. If I was a conspiracist I might think the hooligans were deliberately allowed into the city to justify policing levels but even that is stretching it. More likely they just took their eye off the ball for a moment and lost control.

just the beginning!

How is that saying: "you gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet"?

If we ever want to get rid of this corporate tyranny, both the olympics and the governments, we need to break a lot of eggs!

Our elections are rigged by money,just as the olympics BS is rigged, all to make people think that everything is just fine.

It is not possible to get people motivated as long as the media feed them lies!

Revolution will happen, when enough people suck shit!

What happens here at the olympics is just a smattering of reaction to stupid management.

Imagine when people actually realize they are bieng screwed by the people they elected?

Who are the peaceful protesters?

The peaceful protest was made up of a lot of people who seem to have taken a few minutes out of a pretty comfortable life.

I doubt Michael Byers or most of you either for that matter have missed too many meals. I doubt any of you have grown up living with the day to day reality of the effect of government cuts on your life.

I doubt any of you grew up on welfare or what an $8 an hour job provided your mother. Especially if she was used to a good wage cleaning hospital rooms.

I'm certain that none of you watched a loved one suffer in pain on a waiting list, or heaven forbid, die on one.

Nope, I'm pretty sure the peaceful protest of Friday night was made up of a lot of people for whom social justice was something to be indulged in on the way to Starbucks.

Because after all, judging others is what we do here.

Frank.. And The Genie,

I'm really so pleased Frank, that you have held onto your objectivity throughout this discussion. You get my respect again, brother.

"BC loves thuggery and violence, just not when its directed at banks. One thing we are not is a "civil society". That's just a myth we like to tell ourselves because we don't have to see the results of our government's actions up close and personal. Its too easy to remain ignorant."

And I'm damn sure it hasn't been easy for many on the so-called "moderate" Left, to see through all this in a way that maintains their objectivity. I do suspect though, that looking back at this years from now, we are eventually going to realize that this was one of those turning points that begins to change everything.

The reality is, though we may not like it, violence DOES work. And the State and "the system" know this better than anyone. They were borne out of violence themselves, check the real, not idealized history, and it maintains its power with the ever present threat of violence, and never hesitate to use it all the time... anywhere, anytime in defence of their ruling class power and vital political and economic interests.

Violence does work. That's why it has ever been with us, throughout history, as a constant to human history and evolution. And we all really know it, us AND them, AND all the sheeples huddled in their corrals out there.

Which still makes it no less regrettable. For the genie, with its own logic and way of seeing things, once out of the bottle, is extremely difficult to get back in again.

Too many ad hominems and logical fallacies ...

in this thread to keep track of or to try and fix. Nonetheless, this has been a very interesting thread.

I think both/all sides of the argument have some valid and intersting points that have proven to be good food for thought and can help show us all a different set of perspectives.

However, one of the most interesting, though also most disturbing, trends, is how many people condemn some minor and somewhat meaningless acts of petty violence against the insured property of multi-billion dollar corporations while condoning the almost endless violence against defensless and ultimately helpless poor of this, one of the richest countries in the world.

Quite bizarre.

Disabled lossing housing due to Olympics

It is unfortunate that things have come to this. I am a disabled father of a ten year old son. i live on a provincial P.W.D. disability benifiy. I receive $375 for shelter per month I live in B.C. Housing and my rent has just gone from $362/month to $510/month a whooping $148/ month over my shelter cost. The reason has been explained by B.C. Housing as being they no longer go by a assistance persons income but, their size of family unit. As of April 1st I along with my son will be homeless. No one is willing to step up and help us either. we get "oh that's not right", or "they can't do that" but Pivot will not help nor will anyone else. When you live in a society and you are treated this way by the government and the society they represent, it becomes quite easy to realize that the only voice that is heard today is the extreme voice. Protestors are laughed at as the majority of society do not yet realize that they too are on the verge of marginalization. Ghandi said poverty is the worst form of violence yet when those forced into poverty due to circumstances beyond their control resort to violence to at least get a bit of publicity they are shunned, but which form of violence do you see as being the most evil. Soon a disabled man and his son will be thrown out into the street while the wealthy party on in Whistler. I for one am really starting to see the point of the terrorist in our society. They are the only ones capable of getting attention shed on what should really be imporatant. Do I agree with breaking windows just for fun? No, But then again what other voice do I have when no one will help a disabled man and his son fight agaqinst homelessness just to pay for some fireworks and a party for the wealthy. Even the NDP will not make this an issue because in my riding a BCLiberal won so I guess we are not worthy of help just to punish all of us for voting in a man who has done more to hurt the disabled and their families than anyone I have ever come across. If i can't be with my son i don't see much point of being here.

RE: Coyoteman & "Turning Point"

Re: "I do suspect though, that looking back at this years from now, we are eventually going to realize that this was one of those turning points that begins to change everything."

LOL @ "turning point". Are you serious? 30 or so punk rock kids getting some media for breaking windows is a 'turning point'? It's media spectacle that will be forgotten about by most of the public within a few days.

exactly...

John Greg.
One wonders if Canada's much vaunted politesse is really fear of the state... as in OMG, they might come for me, I had better be quiet and compliant...
But the best humour award goes to those offering violence to the protesters and those who disagree. That kind of irony is just so priceless...
Oh well, I am off to look for work again...

Realist ...

Now that's real violence against an individual, as carried out willfully and intentionaly by an uncaring government backed by power brokers and profiteers who would just as soon see you drown in their miasmatic refuse as be given a chance at a meaningful life. My heart goes out to you.

Say, I've got an idea. Why don't you suck it up and go have fun at the Olympics?!? After all, you helped pay for it.

/sardonic satire and sarcasm off

Realist

Thank you for your excellent post! Your situation couldn't be much worse. That simply cannot be allowed to happen.

Realist

Realist, thank you for your comments. You have clearly shown us some of the problems that must be solved and issues that need to be addressed.
i think the Olympic village should have been built to house the homeless. I would like to see if this could be done with it after the Owelimpics or sell the condos and use the money from the sale to build housing for those in need.

false dichotomies

“Realist” deserves more support, options and voices to choose from than what’s appeared on this thread so far.

Calling posters welfare bums certainly didn’t advance the “discussion” (good for David H for withdrawing his remark). But neither does equating anyone questioning vandalism with support for state violence, poverty, the cops, war, the govt, etc.

Dare I ask about the carbon footprint of traveling to Vancouver to…break windows? Or will a few people immediately accuse me of supporting the tar sands? Am I allowed to question both?

Of course there’s lots of blind obedience and complacency in our consumer culture. And poverty generates violence. But one of the hard jobs at hand is figuring out how to inspire and inform enough people so that together we can stop cooperating with this system and bring it down with as little damage to people and resources as possible.

Unfortunately, the Black Bloc crew looks to me like it has more in common with this culture than it likes to believe. They act like Prozac protestors: people who are after a quick, flashy, political fix. Big on bravado, pathetic in praxis. Anonymous in their masks and black, yet radiating ego and militarism. They seem so quaintly patriarchal.

I remember the days of the Vancouver 5 and their direct action communiqués, but I can’t remember them sparking any kind of uprising - just widening the divisions in the anti-nuke movement. And increasing the surveillance on all of us.

Then there was the pro-Albanian Communist Party of Canada (Marxist-Leninist) and its myriad front groups. Always good for a laugh with their dogmatic diarrhea postering the city, except when they were bonking other activists with 2x4s! Not fun.

Real change is slow, usually off-camera. Having spent time living and working in Sandinista Nicaragua, I learned how many generations it took to throw off a brutal, corrupt dictatorship. Yes, they engaged in a successful armed struggle, but they used a lot of other tools along the way.

One of their most important ones, and probably the hardest one for any activist anywhere, remains the art of listening, especially to people who disagree. Not very dramatic or photogenic, though.

bicotti

"But neither does equating anyone questioning vandalism with support for state violence, poverty, the cops, war, the govt, etc."

The problem for me was that it was a blanket statement of "no violence from our side, ever".

There is no reason to withdraw from the deck one of the most effective cards. If the Sandanistas hadn't been willing to use violence and instead peacefully protested now and then on the steps of the Managua Art Gallery Somoza would have remained in power.

What is required is an acceptance of the fact that the marginalized will never see their situations improve if they have to wait for us so they should be free to act as they see fit.

who is marginalized?

It's really hard to tell how marginalized the Black Bloc people are when they wear masks and all that gear. Uniforms aren't cheap!

Biscotti...

"...when they wear masks and all that gear. Uniforms aren't cheap!"

Again Biscotti, think on the truth of this comment of yours, for just a tad more than a cappucino heartbeat. Did you even notice the cops, and how they were masked, helmeted, carrying arms, batons and wearing uniforms.

You really have got to pay attention, learn and think a lttle deeper before you just open up and let it all fall out.

Check out those cops again, and then back to the black block. In appearances anyway, they didn't look a whole lot different... except, the cops were much more seriously armed and capable of doing serious "bodily" damage, and, of course. had the authority of The State. Relatively, compared, the cops were armed with a near monopoly of weapons of mass destruction. (Just like Amerika vis a vis Iran and/or Iraq.)

The cops were the full might of the US Empire/ The State. The Black Bloc were but Iraq or Afghanistan up against it. No contest, you'd think on the surface of it. Yet The Empire is going to be the one that flees the Middle East in the end. Likely very soon.

Again, think on it.

Which still doesn't detract one iota from the other more thought through observation you made, and with which I entirely agree:

"Of course there’s lots of blind obedience and complacency in our consumer culture. And poverty generates violence. But one of the hard jobs at hand is figuring out how to inspire and inform enough people so that together we can stop cooperating with this system and bring it down with as little damage to people and resources as possible."

Yup. I'd say that is the more relevent direction in which this discussion really needs to develop. Which I wouldn't have said any differently than you did. (In fact, I think that is what I have been saying all along, really. )

The problem is, people are catching on to the soft shoe shuffle bullshit of NDP/Social Democratic rhetoric and deception, and won't be satisfied with simply putting an X alongside their party name much longer. They're looking for real solutions, and not just those confined to the status quo box the NDP is playing spin the bottle with the status quo in.

Indeed, the entire status quo, ruling class stage managed "democratic/ electoral system" the NDP has been and is so reliant on, is rapidly being left behind and judged irrelevent by greater and greater numbers of people.

As that happens, and there is then no alternative to this rigged system but "the street", what do you think the potential for violence is going to be, as time passes and further economic decline continues?

who we are

Yes I'm back, but to touch on one thing only even though I could write page upon page more. People keep asking, "Who are these people in bandana's"?

Think of the movie V For Vendetta. Think of the end of the movie where everyone is removing their masks. Same thing.

I have been involved in protests and black bloc's on 5 continents over the years and I can assure you that people dawning the read and black come from EVERY conceivable class structure you can imagine. Why do people always assume that we are spoiled brats sponging off of our parents? Because people are scared and confused by the unknown and in their discomfort they spout out nonsense.

I have marched with people in their teens and people in their sixties... all wearing masks. I have marched with people from wealthy upbringings in Bogota and I have broken windows at protests with the homeless people of Berlin. I have marched with Christians, Hidu's, Buddhists, and any other spiritual background you can think of. I have marched with mothers, fathers, grandparents, sons and daughters, all with their masks on.

The diversity of people in these forms of direct action protests are immense. And while I am not naive enough to say that some of these people are not just out to break shit for no reason besides self enjoyment (because there always are these few people) most of the people marching are standing up for their beliefs.

Believe that or not... most of you seem to choose the latter.

who we are part 2

As for me. I was raised in an upper-middle class family structure. I come from a conservative upbringing although I was always taugh to believe to stand up for those who can not or will not do it themselves. I recieved a University education through a scholarship and after 3.5 years realised the Western Education system is shit so I saved a small amount of money and started to travel.

From there the eyes opened and I have been traveling ever since with my activism. Veganism, animal rights, anti-capitalism, and much more. I have lived on the streets by choice for years and try to take myself 'off the grid' as much as possible with my lifestyle. Hitchhiking everywhere (even across oceans), dumpster diving, shoplifing, squatting, and living homeless is an easy way to live and travel for free. Do I realise I still rely on society to live how I do? Yes, but I am still not supporting it. I am also capable of living off the land and creating a comfortable and plausible living situation for myself and others if "the system" ceased to exist. How many of you can say the same?

Just because I was born into a upper-middle class family has no relavence with my activism or the fact that I march at protests and sometimes with Black Bloc's. Being born in Canada with white skin is priveledge enough and I think most people fail to realise that in this Euro-American World we live in.

Some people prefer to stand up for what they believe in. Some prefer to do nothing (apathy kills) while sitting above their ivory tower shouting how wrong this and that is. Being beaten by the police or hit with tear gas (both have happened to me more than once) are small prices to live in a World we want to make better.

What is the point of believeing in Utopia's if you are not willing to fight to make them happen?

what's class got to do with it?

everything.

Thanks for changing my mind, right-wingers!

The Black Bloc is only a small faction of the anarchist movement, as I have previously pointed out. I have written articles criticizing this tactic in the past and still question its worth as a means to social revolution. But the hypocritical ranting I have seen here about "violence", "spoiled brats" "thugs", "cowards" and so forth has made me sympathetic to them. If criticism had only been limited to a debate on tactics and not descended to this childish and venomous level, this would not have happened.

to Realist

My journey started when my father, protecting his financial information, decided that a female with 152 IQ wasn't worth filling out a student loan form for. Saying, 'why do you want to go to university when you're just going to get married and have kids anyway'. In my life, I've been personally touched by the acts of rape, 5 year meth addiction, murder, suicide, working my way from file clerk to a senior postion in a company where I made $150 K in 1997, losing that job due to betrayal by company decision relating to its assets, working 80 hours a week down the US for $13/hr, and finally, unable to work anymore or carry on, I managed to get onto BC diability. It has been extremely hard raising my daughter, battling with depression, but somehow getting to this point where I see hope. She is going to school (something I never got to do) and our relationship is pretty good. She is over 19 now and my cheque has been cut back to a single rate, which means I don't have enough after paying the rent and bills, to buy food, and I am supposed to be on a high protein diet. She has a part time job but she is paying her own way through school and that adds up to about $3000/yr, and though she does chip in, it's not enough.
My point I guess is that there are 100,000 stories of people on disability in this province. Some are worse and some are better. The nature of the beast is that they don't allow anybody on disability in this province if it isn't valid, fighting for the whole makes us forget how bad it may be for ourselves, and in the long run I think we can get further ahead. You and I have a roof over our heads, and a computer to bash some keys on.
Maybe it was all meant to be, that I'd end up in this place, to post comments here and there, to maybe sway a few people hopefully. I do know that when I was making $150K a year I forgot. It wasn't that I was a bad person. I got lost over a house and a car and holiday trips.
Lastly, for all you frustrated protestors like the Anti Poverty group, I saw you a couple of years ago and you sparked something in me. I delighted in your protests and I decided at that point to do what I could do. Don't ever believe that your marches are doing no good.
Hmm.. I'm hungry.. maybe fry up a can of potatoes.. and no I'm not kidding.

Anger is understandable

The protesters are those who have been negatively affected by the whole Olympic Party for the rich.It's easy to say they should be peaceful when they have seen what peaceful protest has brought this province.It's easy to understand their frustration.When you aint got notin you got nothin to lose.They were promised social housing at Woodwards after a long protest.They were lied to.They were promised social housing at the Olympic village.They were lied to.If I was sleeping on the sidewalk I might just break a window myself.It's easy for those that are comfortably enjoying these games to wonder where this anger comes from.Perhaps the fact that you have to ask says it all.

Canadian Beer Hall Putsch

So do those of you on this site who are truly impoverished really believe that these hooligans, who are doing minor damage to property and intimidating citizens, are doing your cause a favour? Do you think that any kind of attention is good publicity?

Vancouver is a relatively civil town and everyone wants to solve our homeless problem, but when the issue mutate into an ill defined political movement rather than advocacy, everyone is lost. Most of these protesters can't even articulate what they are protesting against. Truly, they are rebels without a cause and a clue. So it's a waste of time to argue about any issues or try to sincerely solve problems. By using even minor amounts of violence and superficial intimidation, they divert sympathy into antipathy.

Certainly many of Vancouver's immigrants are grateful to be living in Vancouver and work hard to improve their lot. Some of them even come from circumstances far more difficult than what the legitimate protesters have faced in their life.

In fact alot of immigrants ask, "Why are most of these violent protesters mostly white people? And why are First Nations people so angry despite all the money the govt gives them and all the time allotted to them in the Olympic opening ceremony?"

Perhaps in Canada, white people and First Nations share the greatest sense of self-entitlement. They feel they have been cheated from their birthright. But, when will they realize that history is a cruel bitch? Many Chinese immigrants don't understand why the First Nations are fighting for a lost cause that has no relevance to today's Canada. Indeed, anyone from China will tell you that they recently cast off Communism and are hurtling into a brave new world. Millions of people were sacrificed for a movement and ideology that miserably failed. Yet, the Chinese nation pragmatically admits they lost and made a bad choice and moved on.

Why can't First Nations do the same thing, they wonder? Sure, hundreds of years ago, the big, bad white man forced out the Indians. Go back in Asian history, and lots of Chinese got royally screwed by not only the white man, but by lots of other Asians. Plenty of Asians who experienced injustice or poverty under Communism look forward to improving the future of their children through economic growth. Unlike the First Nations, they don't condemn their future generations to an unending welfare state.

And then there are your disenfranchised and angry white guys who wonder why they can't get ahead. Yes, I, too, sense the racism in Vancouver- two way racism. It's not pretty when so many Asians are thrust into what was once a predominantly WASP community. But, the extinction of unionized, highly paid, unskilled jobs in BC marked an end to BC's easy life. But, lashing out against innocent bystanders and vandalizing businesses only shows their inability to live the very WASP values they once stood for.

Arrrests, beatings as Saturday protetst turns violent

What purpose does this vandalism serve? It absolutely defeats the purpose and invalidates whatever good reason there might have been. Even if well intentioned, turning violent diminishes credibility.

Incidentally....

I'm a peaceful protestor.

I was out dressed in my rags and Charlie Chaplin workboots, pushing my shopping cart filled with my home supply of empty pop cans, bottles and garbage around the city on Sunday afternoon.

Up Cambie and Midlothian to the curling rink, where nothing much of anything was going on and nobody wandering around to observe it; then back down the other side of Cambie to 2nd, immediately noting who was local from who was from out of town by the looks I received, or the looks that avoided me. I don't think my cart is noisy enough - I need some more metal in it. Pawing through the garbage cans produced interesting results - here and there I saw lips curl into a sneer, laughter and pointing. It's fun when you don't have to do it for a living.

Then at 2nd and Cambie, I pull up next to a young family of four waiting for the light, and Dad, who out-hulks me by six inches and fifty pounds, looks round worriedly, gathers his charges and shoos them across to the crosswalk down the street. "What's wrong?" asks wifey. No discernible reply floated back, and I carried on smiling across the street, secure in the knowledge that yet another young family will grow up with a prejudice against being poor or unlucky to take back to their hometown with them.

Though I had to pick up a can or two now and then to maintain my cover, I'm not taking away the binners' livelihood. Everything I get will be given to a couple of the regular binners who roll through my neighbourhood after the farce is all over. Just so you know I've been thinking about this a bit.

Bobby Peru

"So do those of you on this site who are truly impoverished really believe that these hooligans, who are doing minor damage to property and intimidating citizens, are doing your cause a favour?"

And do you think that if there had been no protesters money spent on the Olympics would have been spent on the poor instead? Seriously?

The Olympic money has already been spent. The budget that's coming down after the Games is already written. I'm sure you know that, you're just looking for a reason to legitimize why we have so many poor people and you've latched on to the idea its because of protesters.

"By using even minor amounts of violence and superficial intimidation, they divert sympathy into antipathy. "

And over the last 9 years your use of triumphalism, belittling and ignoring has destroyed any sense of common or shared purpose. Something that is now evident to the rest of the world and partly explains why these Olympics are being panned by foreign columnists.

The Jokes on You

Veganterraist, Frank, Anarcho and all the other deluded folk who think the revolution is just around the corner.

You are living in a dream world. There ain't going to be no revolution. The vast majority of people out here in suburbia, whether they vote NDP or Liberal, are reasonably happy with their lives. Whatever the faults with the system, it works relatively well.

Now that is not say that there are not big problems. Some people just aren't capable of providing reasonably for their families, and so you have hungry kids. Some people have serious mental or personality problems and just aren't capable of looking after themselves. There are obviously lots of people with addiction problems. There are any number of other groups in society that need our generous support and don't get it under the current government. Some of these people didn't even get that support under the previous NDP government.

But to think that there is going to be popular uprising a la 1917 in Russia or as has happened in numerous other countries is a fantasy. It ain't gonna happen. If you want to be taken seriously, you don't put on a goofy black mask and march in the streets to strike a blow for whatever. The vast majority of people have nothing but contempt for these goofs.

If you want to get things done, you have to work long and hard within the system.

Laugh In

Zalm, your logic for the govt and people to shame themselves by watching police mercilessly flog protesters simply isn't working. The police are kindly arresting the vandals instead of brutally charging through the mobs with horses and truncheons. Those galvanizing press images simply aren't there to further your crazy causes.

Now I won't go into how convoluted the protesters' messages have become and how they are impractical and meaningless- we can save that for another thread. But, the worst thing that can happen to movements and protesters is that they become marginalized from the attention of mainstream society.

No doubt, the average Vancouverite is concerned about the Downtown Eastside. But, the violent element who has joined the protesters only convinces the mainstream to write you off and ignore you. And being ignored is literally the Kryptonite for all of you protest groups. It's time for the protest groups to find themselves a real demagogue rather than some immature, spraypainting ravers.

x4estworker

The jokes on you buddy, feel free to find a post where I said there's going to be a revolution.

Ignoring what people say and erecting strawmen may work with your wife but I'll just ignore you.

Bobby Peru

"But, the violent element who has joined the protesters only convinces the mainstream to write you off and ignore you."

And how is that any different from the last 9 years of no protests?

It isn't.

You guys admit poverty and homelessness have gotten worse but you don't have any solutions and therefore you blame the protesters because you need to blame anyone except the government you support.

True, no Revolution around the corner

X4estworker, no one here thinks the rev is around the corner. Furthermore, a revolution is not a thing, but a process, a lengthy process that involves people developing a consciousness of their situation and of creating alternative ways of living based upon that consciousness. The revolution has been going on for a long time, since the late 1960's actually, and the new consciousness that evolved then - anti-racism, feminism, environmentalism, participatory democracy, percolated through society and changed the attitudes and ways of living of millions of people. Since 1980 we have lived through a counter-revolutionary period and the ruling classes have fought back to undermine that consciousness and take back away the reforms won by this and previous generations. The counter revolution threw the orthodox progressive movements into a tail spin. Since then the movement has been re-building, finding new ways of organizing and critiquing the system.

As for the suburbanites many of them may be happy but wait till gasoline is $5 a litre we will see how happy they will be. This way of life is totally unsustainable and is not long for the course. Nor have we seen the last of the global economic crisis...

Don't worry, the future will provide plenty to revolt over.

The Children of Privilege 1...

"But the hypocritical ranting I have seen here about "violence", "spoiled brats" "thugs", "cowards" and so forth has made me sympathetic to them." Anarcho.

Likewise, Anarcho.

Which is not to say that I still don't think a much broader movement than this has to evolve. Of course it does, and I'm sure Anarcho agrees, and Frank. And though I personally despise the NDP itself, particularly much of its too smooth by half, careerist, really wannabe Liberal leadership, it for sure is going to have to include much of that party's rank and file. Ditto the "official" Trade Unions, who I don't really think can even be called a "movement" anymore. (They're just too integrated into "the system" like the NDP.)

But, regardless, there is going to have to be a bigger break yet with the tactics of "tokenism", called "cappuccino tactics" here, and a really serious fightback engaged in against the system, by whatever means. And I have no illusions or presumptions about how long this is going to take.

But when you hear, as is being reported on the media today, that the government is moving to further remove, with "regulations", the possibility of home ownership from greater numbers of "lower" income people, you know that the pressures within the economy are continuing to build. This latest report makes clear what we have all known for awhile now, that Canadians are carrying precarious sums of debt, some $93,000 "on average", using their homes as ATM machines, and taking on second mortgages. To say nothing of the skyrocketing credit card debts as well.

And I realize that there is likewise a widespread disconnect between this reality and how folks are continuing to behave, and still looking for individual solutions over collective ones. If the above continues much longer, there is a line in the economic sand out there however, where this all begins to further and dramatically break down.

Now however, escalated actions and tactics need to be evolved, utilizing ingenuity and forethought, that educate our citizenry of the class politics at the root of what is occurring, and points to the real ruling class criminals and how they need to be dealt with. Which is with the same tit for tat ruthlessness and contempt they display for us. Which is centrally where I disagree with veganterraist, whom I otherwise admire. It really is all about class.

continued next post...

The Children of Privilege 2...

From previous post...

And that doesn't mean that folks of conscience who come out of more privileged circumstances cannot or should not have roles to play in the coming social transformation fight, or revolution if you prefer. Even class aware persons such as myself understand that life is more complicated than the narrow formulae, however accurate overall, that we sometimes use.

You'll have to excuse me though, having experienced this phenomena before, if I am some cautious about the "adventurism" such folks as yourselves sometimes bring to "the movement". I've seen privileged kids before do their "poverty stint" or "radical period", always in the backs of their minds knowing that they can return home to more comfortable circumstances and legal assistance whenever they weary of it all. And virtually all those that I knew, did just that, where they ensconced themselves in good careers.

We'll see, eh? But in my experience, some cynicism is justified. :-) lol

Violent protesters have no place in Canada

Smashing windows and throwing huge orange security barricades at the police have no place in peaceful, civil protests. It's a disgrace and all legitimate protesters should distance themselves from this type of thing. These "terrorists" needed to be arrested and I admire the restraint of the police - I guess they learned a lesson from Apex. I've been to many protests and never seen this type of ridiculous behaviour!

Selfish Actions, Bad Effect

Veganterraist, Anarcho, and the rest of the black mob. Regardless of your personal beliefs, here are some facts resulting from your actions.

Pivot Legal Society was on CKNW Monday, apologizing for staying away from the saturday protest because they were told to by certain protest groups. They realize and admit they've lost a great deal of credibility, credibility slowly built up over years of activism.

Jim Green stated publicly how angry he is that protests stopped the torch from coming through the Vancouver east side, that local heros who've turned their lives around were denied their run. Local residents, street people, addicts and aid workers lined up to cheer for one of their own. Veterans too were shown no respect, and JIm, who has lived in and worked for the neighborhood for 30 years, said he didn't recognize any of the protesters.

The police, in showing great restraint in responding to your violence, have been transformed from bullies into heros.

The fact is the people who share many of your beliefs and work hard to facilitate change...you have betrayed. The fact is the very people that you claim to stand for, searching for dignity on our streets... you have disrespected. The fact is the police state you claim to fight against...you have strengthened. The fact is your actions were nothing more than self indulgent. You got your 15 minutes of fame, and those who strive for social justice will pick up the pieces.

Yes, of course

We can be sure that the actions of the stupid vandals has galvanized millions to support their cause.

The glorious revolution is coming tomorrow.

Look at all the politicians and civic leaders that are joining them on the barricades.

Yes. It's all a big joke. The police have shown considerable restraint under constant taunting by the rent-a-mob kids, allowing the kids to demonstrate with absolute clarity that they are simply, out to lunch. The kids tantrums have positioned themselves somewhere between wild dogs and meth-addicts going bonkers.

Just about everyone is turning away from the black-clad brats in disgust.

examples of delusional thinking

From CBC's news site: Vancouver activists split on violent tactics: http://tinyurl.com/ydpxxyt
----------
"Participants in the demonstration only undertook strategic attacks against corporations sponsoring the Olympics and did not harm or attack bystanders," said the [unsigned] message, which was released to the media on Monday.

Despite the arrest of three people on Saturday, those involved believe the protest was a success, according to the message.

"We proved that $1 billion of security couldn't prevent us from clogging the heart of downtown Vancouver and crashing a party of 100,000 people — and getting away with it," said the message.

It also blames police for threatening public safety by deploying riot squads to control the protesters and defends the masks the participants used to hide their identities.

"Participation in the black bloc is an act of courage…. By wearing black clothing and masking our faces, the black bloc allows for greater protection to those who choose active self-defense," said the message.
----------
Strategic? Success? Courage? Please, let's have some honest, rigorous analysis here.

A blip of media attention means success? Then Pickton scored big time.

I have to admit to more than caution about adventurism than "coyoteman" who is rather gracious and patient in taking the time to pen a detailed response to "veganterraist".

How clever of this privileged class refugee to adopt a moniker that puns terrorists. I guess it's meant to be ironic. But having witnessed what real life terrorists did to civilians in Nicaragua, it's not something I'd want to associate with, even in jest.

I was never a big fan of Andy Warhol, but I always liked his point that "only the bourgeois are afraid to look like the bourgeois." The BB might win me over if they dressed in, say, paisley or polka dot jumpsuits, and danced to their revolution. Drag might be refreshing. Or grey flannel, as suggested earlier in this thread.

If conditions have to get worse before the masses get fed up enough to revolt, does that mean we should accelerate the decline? If so, at what cost to people and the environment? I'd rather find another way.

biscotti

"I'd rather find another way."

But no one is, or has been, stopping you from pursuing whatever course of action you think appropriate.

"A blip of media attention means success?"

Then you agree Friday night's protest was a failure too?

Fill in the gaps!

The real crime is having to wait another 4 years for the pinnacle of winter festivals! The benefits are clearly seen with people from all over the world mingling with the locals all in celebration of the snow flake and sports for northern climates. Who cares how much it costs when there is joy like this! In fact lets spend everything we have left on parties for those that can appreciate it.

We can all quit working, at lease in the western world, while the third world extracts the last of the resources required to keep the flame burning a few more decades until in flames out for good! What a time we'll have! No regrets. No future to worry about, spend our childrens inheritance for real.

I'm running up by debt as much as possible, because after the party is over I'm checking out. We tried to talk sustainability for a while but that was just insanity! Share wealth? Plan for the Future? F**k that! Grab what you can now for yourself, everyone else is.

Forget that limits to growth thing, it's all bull made up to spoil the party for the rich, as if they care, they've already won. They've turned up the heat and drove economics and wealth creation into exponential overdrive. Just try and stop it now! Go ahead just give them another excuse to use their smart bombs. You think throwing a few paper bins through bank windows will have an effect on this machine? I want more of what you're smoking. I'm going to need another 6 pack to wash that down with too.

Get out and party like it's 1999! Quit being all green and righteous. We can't beat them so we have to join them. This is as clear as it gets. "I've got a feeling, that tonights going to be a good good night...."