Robin Ciceri got a $15 400 bonus for massaging numbers? I'm so angry I going to puke.

The following is my analytical, non-swiftian response to the excellent article above. First, the great majority of welfare recipients do not have phones in the first place, because aphone simply constitutes food taken out of their mouths. Those that do are almost always people who are on welfare for the first time, who had jobs that paid for their phone. These people, in general, tend not to have too many disabilities, except that part of the group that can afford phones, being disabled, and being on the higher, though inadequate disability rate. SO, it is relatively easy, for this as usual cherry-picked best case scenario group of people to leave welfare, excluding the diasabled of course. The other, almost 70% of welfare recipients NOT included in this mendacious survey, have considerable barriers to employment, not having a phone being just one. Other barriers include disabilities, hidden and not hidden. No social workers phone people with disabilities, and help them to get on disability; it's almost always entirely up to the disabled many of whom find the system intimidating and confusing, especially since the bc liberals have nearly gutted it. So you have this typical bc liberal cherry-picked good news statistic that uncategorically refuses to track the actual effect of their despicable blood-soaked policies, including deaths of homeless peole and their undoubted rise under the bc liberals....Cherry-picked statistics from small unreliable samples, as well as leaving out critical information have been the signature and hallmark of the bc liberal "government." All of the recent so called "good news," about bc's sopposedly improving economy has followed an identical pattern: so called heightened provincial migration to bc left out the fact that bc has always had a net gain and counted migration from other countries, and left out, interprovincial migration which is down. A temporary burp upward in the last few months ignored the facts of low interest fueling housing, and temporarily high resource prices for raw materials, two factors having absolutely to do with the bc liberals. Yet these the sun has been trumpeting a so called turnaround -presumably thanks to attacking the most vulnerable in society. People should be very afraid of a government willing to UNENDINGLY RESORT TO TAXPAYER FUNDED LIES IN ORDER TO JUSTIFY A REGIME WHICH HAS USED ITS OWN LIE -THAT TAXCUTS WOULD PAY FOR SOCIAL PROGRAMS AS AN ENDLESS EXCUSE TO ACT VICIOUSLY AND IRRESPONSIBLY WITH CANWEST MEDIA AS CHEERLEADER. It is also worth mentioning that the situation in bc also constitutes the first time ever that a media monopoly has played such a large part in a government both taking and shamefully abusing power, of backing up a government that createed an utterly unnecesary and artificial crisis, as well as the provable deaths that resulted directly from their actions. ALL canadians, and british columbians in particular should be very angry. Finally, I very hope that Andrew Mcleod will use this series to document just how bogus the bc liberal "training programs," for those on welfare and disability are, that they are nothing more than resume writing classes, that people are forced to attend them with inadequate funding and nutrition, and that all they do is fatten both the liberal's friends and the poverty industry, and that they have in fact, GUTTED most of the real training programs and all of the supports and incentitives that once helped people find work...it is my fervent hope that the bc liberals will face charges in a court of law for every shamefull act and outrage upon the citizens who have built this province....

What we really need is a "poor" and "worker" friendly social environment, that at least matches that which rightist governments and parties are so anxious to create for business. Then, with that, and the greed of the wealthy brought, at least, under control; incomes not hundreds of thousands and millions of multiples times average worker and poor wages, and a return to the principle of taxation based on ability to pay, we can actually begin to seriously deal with this issue of poverty. Which politicians and governments talk about, but ever do precious little to actually solve. (Their frequent talk of "labout-management cooperation" is really code for "worker surrender" to management. For all they ever really do is "take" and "threaten" working people, while they fawn with "understanding" and stroking "cooperation" with "business/ management".)

But then again, as I keep raising here, the key really doesn't lie within the formal political process. That's only the minor part of the problem really. The real problem lies within the economy, especially the corporate sector, and the distribution of management and governance "power" there. It's there in the direction, priorities and goals of "the economy" that there lies the means to deal with ALL the economic issues in society. (Or they are nowhere at all.)

The flag that needs to be raised there, in the economy/ public and private corporations is, the oldie but goodie, "Power To The People". Only we need to get very concrete and practical about it. Because if we don't do it right, or we do it but facetiously, "the people" could make a mess of it too. And "experience" and "connections" is not an irresolvable problem, but it is a problem.

It is time though, to begin to move in that direction, to draw up the battle lines, assemble the "class" forces, develop the strategies and tactics, and engage the struggle with the corporate ruling elites. (And I am not saying there isn't room for reasonable and negotiatied compromise. But that depends as much on the posture they adopt, and what their attitude and response is to the idea of, at least, seriously and actually "sharing" real, concrete governance and input power over the economy, with workers/unions, community interests, and "user" interest groups, such as "environmental" and "consumer" interests. Though we should expect that they will not be pleased. At which point it becomes an issue of "backbone", "resolve" and "tenacity").

Now, I'm all sweaty from the bush, and my sweetie likes me to smell nice. Time for a shower. :-)

Very good article Andrew.

What else could we expect of a government that instructed its workers to send out all correspondence to the public (yes that includes the folks who were getting cutoff letters from MHR) emblazoned with the 2010 Olympics logo and the phrase “It’s our time to shine.”. All it was missing was the “—not yours!” at the end to complete the picture.

That one only lasted a few days before it sunk in via staff, to the higher paid folks up in trough control that this might be inappropriate and cause embarrassment for them.

The Liberals currently have a Request for Proposal out to privatize welfare service delivery in Clearwater, which has been strongly protested by the BCGEU. With their mantra of “private must be better” guiding them, they are hell-bent on compromising the personal information of the vulnerable, and putting social services to people in need in the hands of for-profit companies.

This only scratches the recent surface of the mean-spiritedness imposed on welfare recipients under the Campbell regime since they started taking a hammer to the system in April, 2002.

I hope that this series of articles opens some eyes to what they are really doing to the poor behind their iron curtain of secrecy.

when the Campbell Corp was first elected they promised lots of things the list is too long and most of us know them , lib supporters told me "for the first time we now have fixed election dates".... i read in this morning paper that Campbell is seriously thinking about changing that legislation, and they can do it with another convenient piece of legislation or a meeting on Friday.. no not a Friday none of them work on a Friday...they need more time to conclude the greatest garage sale of the world by selling off the rest of the province, including every service you can or can't think of . This Government and i use that term loosely could care less if you end up in a ditch , or on the street, who cares!!... the only ones that matter to this gang are big corporations, and most of those are from out side the country. where are all those riches going to come from to feed the glut of Vancouver.. i told my lib supporter friends that fixed election dates wouldn't last.. seems i'm right...

I believe that the May 2005 election date was to stand as is, but future dates may be moved to the fall. It was really funny listening to Campbell try to say without saying it that they may look bad in May before their budget is out. The reporter then when on to the real reason for the story - NDP bashing. It has started- get ready.

Let me get this straight. They contacted people BY PHONE after they left the welfare books, when one of the first things to go when you're broke and out of work is, well, the phone, because if you don't pay your bill they take it away very very quickly. Then they based their results on the answers of those people who could still afford a phone and weren't so angry with the government that the only thing they really wanted to do was strangle the person on the other end of the line rather than answer assinine questions whose answers will be ignored anyway by the bureaucrats and politicians.

Well, that's government statisticians for you. I hope that if any of the people who did the survey actually graduated with a degree in statistics that they had the good graces to send it back to the university that granted the degree, perhaps with a note about how they don't really need it, as the results were pre-determined anyway.

Excellent wake up call comments from "Welfare Worker". The former governing (..excuse the term) Ontario conservatives pulled that welfare stunt with Accenture - remember them? (hint: Private offshore company, touted by BC Campbell party, servicing BC Hydro...cheque cashers...Br> Here's a link to what they did to Ontario - just the other day: http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=the star/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1089411015907&call_pagei d=968256289824&tacodalogin=no

Again - the above doesn't work: http://www.thestar.com/ NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thes tar/Layout/ Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1089411015907&call_pageid=968256289824

Well hell - at: www.thestar.com Click on the near top left corner where the category of news is: "Ontario" Then on the far lower right, is the article titled: "How costly computer sparked 'nightmare'" The "computerised" welfare gaffe by Accenture, is going to cost the Ontario taxpayers $10 Million to fix. Seems that the Harris government's right wing tax cut (welfare) to the wealthy..didnt include the possibility of people on assitance actually ever getting a raise in benefits. Say's it all.

People are not really people to governments like the Campbell Liberals. They are commodities to be traded away for a few bucks. It's a sad and pathetic conclusion but I see no evidence that suggests any different.

great article Andrew! Is anyone out there really surprised at there govt.'s skewing of bad stats to promote more of their taxpayer funded propoganda? It irks me to the extreme to think thay my tax dollars are being used this way...against me and my fellow citizens Today I received in the mail four pages of bullshit from the Vancouver Isle. Health Authority telling me wha a swell and progressive job they"re doing.They even take credit for a cat scan that was ENTIRELY paid for by a local resident and wasn't installed for years because of more beaureaucratic bullshit. We are at the very beginning of a huge propoganda campaign to be continued until next May.Keep up the vigilance and good work Andrew...we all need to fight back with every means at our disposal.Discuss it with everyone you meet...I have found that there is a huge number of us out there from all ages and walks of life who detest this govt...we all need to be actively agitating as vociferously as possible...as Eddy aptly says, we are viewed as commodities...lets show these jerks the power of the people.

No doubt, there are many who are genuinely in need of assistance and living on $786 a month seems impossible to me. It's too bad there are so many others who use every "bad back" excuse imaginable and end up sucking the system dry. I personally know people who have been on social assistance for years that should never have qualified, and have never attempted to get off who think society owes them. It's also difficult for me to approve of handing out money directly to liquor stores on welfare Wednesday. If there was some way to weed out these system abusers there would be ample resources left over to take care of the truly needy, and the poor, and I think that's what government set out to do, and Kudo's to that.

I personally know people who drive new Mercedes cars and have two or three homes and eat out every night at expensive restaurants, who have stolen virtually every penny of their net worth, often aided, in this respect, by government subsidies to their "business". Its difficult for me to approve of this. I can't help but think there are people more deserving and/or more needful of this taxpayer money, in the form of govenment handouts to corporations and business.

And what's really infuriating is the way these people act so *entitled* - as if we all owe them their fabulous lifestyle.

I see your point. However it's not against the law to drive a new mercedes or own two homes or eat out a expensive retaurants. But it is against the law to cheat on welfare.

I agree, a very good article. However I think the real story behind the huge decrease in the welfare caseload has more to do with the intake process implemented by the Liberals shortly after they were elected. As an ex-welfare worker, it is my experience that the decrease has little to do with clients finding jobs or being 'pushed off' welfare. It's really because people just can't get on anymore. It would be great if someone in the media would do that story as it keeps getting missed.

" It's too bad there are so many others who use every "bad back" excuse imaginable and end up sucking the system dry." writes ,.

BS. The fact is, while there are abusers of privilege in all walks of life, including religion, government and corporatie culture, and the everyday Joe doing his 9-5, there is no evidence of any greater "abuse" of the welfare system, than that of any other.And, "I heard from so and so..." evidence is scarcely relevant to anything. Urban legend is just another way of saying bullshit.

I know how little real HARD evidence there is out there about welfare fraud, in terms of convictions, because outside of that, everyone, even Brownshirt trolls get a presumption of innocence, because I have been searching the net, and thus far NADA! If it was considered a major issue, it would be out there and widely available. Every right wing troll and wingnut would be making sure of that. Instead, all they really have to go on is, urban legends and second hand bs. (The only figure I have come across, out of Ontario, is about 1%. A figure that is disputed, but with nothing "hard" to back it up. And we know how fond right wing nutcases are of their own "mythical perceptions".)

In any case, by and large, it is a miracle, given what the disabled and unfortunate are forced to live on, that there is no greater fraud, or evidence of it, than that which Brownshirt trolls attempt to spoon feed us, from their much suspect "corporatist" and, as Lewis likes to say, "Fraser Pimpstitute" sources.

Get a life for yourself, and you won't have to spend so much time trying to trash your neighbours. And, like I say, when I hear you Brownshirts spending nears as much time decrying "corporatist" abuse of "the system", as you do the poor, mayhaps you will begin to get more credibility.

"If there was some way to weed out these system abusers there would be ample resources left over to take care of the truly needy, and the poor.." again, our troll-lite writes.

Indeed, the abusers being the wealthy, big corporations, "entrepreneurs" and "business" generally; all lining their pockets with generous tax breaks, and feeding at the public trough, nosing out the poor, to get their research and development grants, forgivable loans, and other forms of governmental welfare assistance, provided by all levels of government.

But then "the entrepreneurial spirit" requires "incentives" to get off its ass. The poor respond to only abuse and minimum wages, no doubt.

Get back in your cave, troll.

To ",": If you rely on our legal system and its set of lawa to tell you what's right and what's wrong, then you're in big trouble. A starving man who steals a loaf of bread to feed his starving family is breaking the law too. And, I'd say, this situation isn't so far fetched when you consider what a typical welfare recipient is expected to live on, in B.C., these days.

The government never set out to intelligently go after system abusers - they just wanted to reduce the budget by cutting people off. And by the way the largest allegation of welfare fraud ever made in B.C. was NOT against a recipient but a landlord. If someone knows people who you reasonable believe are cheating the system and who have serious money, report it. It is so easy to come up with anecdotal stories about anything and distrubing how we will give so much power to stories about welfare reicpients, This reminds me of a coversation I had with a private contractor, who went on and on about how he knew these people who were so happy on welfare and were working on the side and not reporting it. So I looked at him and asked, do you report all the work you do? "uh, no". Name me a government, business, banking, taxation, market or whatever system that humans have invented that is immune to abuse. And then please explain why that if it's a system that middle class people abuse, well that's okay. But let there be one case of somebody doing something bad with welfare and we can mercislessly harass everyone in that system.

And before I get out of here, let me talk about "Unions of Business".

What? You didn't know "business" ownership and management are near more universally organized into "unions" than the working class?

I'm not going searching for the figures, but about 30%, I believe of Canadian workers is organized into a union. (Higher here than in the U.S.) Business on the other hand starts with local business "groups" and "clubs", by sectors, by street even, like the Granville St. Businessmen's Association, funnelling into larger Chambers of Commerce which wield tremendous power and "lobbying influence" at municipal, provincial and national levels. Then there are "specialist" National Councils on Business Affairs, Independant Businessmen's Associations, Taxpayer's Federations, print and televisions media councils, Retail Owners Associations, and "right-wing" think tanks like the Fraser Institute, etc. etc.; all out there spreading the word, addressing and lobbying all the levels of government, pressing for legislation and laws of interest to business interests, all designed to create a "business friendly" environment and, what can only rightly be called "welfare support systems" for "business" generally.

If only the working class and poor were nearly as tightly and universally organized as these guys and gals, they might be beginning to get somewhere, instead of "in retreat" and "hunker down in your bunkers" mode, too often stoned to deaden the pain, feeling sorry for themselves, and paralyzed with hunger, resentment, unhappiness and fear, as they too often unfortunately are. There's a humongous job that needs to be done here still, to begin to anywhere near level the playing field.

Organization is power, and enough power, you win. Business certainly knows that.

to coyote.. what do you think unions have been trying to do... i know of agroup of truck drivers up north that were fired for signing a union card.. don't think it can happen here it has.. they are still fighting to get their jobs back, it's been months now, they followed all the rules, soon you will be fined or fired for joining a union.. or unions will only be allowed in certain labour sectors throughout the province, yup the new era.. and the minute you try to organize your referred to as a godles commie something less than human because you want fair labour practices and decent woking conditions, don't have to travel far to see how closed minded bc is about unions if the unions were in the n.d.p.'s pocket as much as big business has been with the Campbell corp. we'd be hung from pikes on the streets open payoff's bribes million forgiven in enviormental fines it goes on and on and on...

Coyote I dont think that any numbers a person could dig up re chargeable welfare fraud would really reflect the true scenario because even the most callous of govts. (notably ours)are afraid of getting too much bad spin from overtly attacking the poor.The cases aforementioned as urban gossip do hold some crededence the grteater point to be made is that welfare is quicksand.To be on the system is to be at the very bottom...powerless....unable to effect change in your life.To some people the demoralizing effect would preclude them from feeling competitive or even worthy to compete but to asuage their inner feelings they act as if this state is the norm...perhaps it is this group that get observed and labelled as being cheats.I enjoy your posts...keep it coming!

Mostly great posts above. I am always amazed however at people who are surprised that large numbers of poor people celebrate and blow more of their cheque on welfare wednesday than they should. While I regard this as foolish, it is also absolutely unsurprising, especially in the downtown eastside. Imagine you are living in a rodent and cockroach infested room, the condition of not all, but the majority of hotels in that area. You have probably only managed to eat decently the first ten days after your last cheque. If you are lucky, you may have had the rough equivalent of a baloney sandwich a day. Quite possibly you have both addictions and mental health problems -services for these, always inadequate, have been gutted under gordon campbell....Suddenly you have alittle money in your pocket, and, unsurprisingly, all you want to do is to wipe out the memory of the last month. So you spend money you shouldn't on restaurant food, liquor and perhaps, drugs....WHY? Because for a few days you feel like a member of society, you feel like a person, and people treat you better because they know you have money, sure, you could conserve your funds, but then you will feel ALL YEAR ROUND, the way you felt for the last two weeks, and you know, that if anything will kill you that will....NOW, as to the so-called problem of welfare cheats, bbecause you good gordon liar supportes just KNOW that every body's stealing from you, but the rich, who just wanna share their last dime with you, well....bullsh**....The provincvial spent over 5 million little more than a year ago, because it was certain in its tiny little heart, that the system was rife cheaters, they found none, or at best afew people whose disabilities were slightly less than they said they were out of 36,000 or more people was it?, they did however save some money with at least five well documented suicides ignored by canwest-global, mike harris set up a welfare cheat line in ontario, it was a dismal failure, along with his entire government which left ontarians with a huge unreported provincial debt, so far, no hotline has been set up over this EIGHT YEAR PERIOD OF CHEATING BY A RIGHTWING GOVERNMENT A LOT LIKE CAMPBELL'S THAT COULDN'T BALANCE A BUDGET DURING THE ECONOMIC BOOM OF THE NINETIES, doesn't auger well, does it? Now, a little modest proposal, I propose a WITCH HUNT on wealthy taxpayers, because I'm positive a lot of 'em are cheatin' on their taxes, let's set up a hotline, and if we catch 'em seize all their assets and throw 'em out on the street, give 'em a criminal record as well, -unfair, draconian??? -yet this EXACTLY what poor bashers have in mind with the current witch hunt on the poor....

Attention Tyee Editor: there is no comment box on the third article of this series, unless this is an anomaly particular to my computer...could you please correct this situation if possible? Thanks. -l.s.

You are not the only one that noticed that omission. I was planning to post there. No such luck...

Is Carole James planning to fix everything so the rich will be poor and the poor will be rich? How will she help fix the problem?

Even anonymity itself...could tell you who ideologically intends the rich to get richer (via "tax break" welfare)..and the poor to be even poorer, with that fake excuse of a "question". Don't look past your own nose. ..and analyse the current morally bankrupt dolers and those to whom they dole. Fair means just that. Not more, not less.

So what's fair? Are you spending any morally bankrupt dollars yourself that you would put towards fixing the problem?

My friend 'S' is on DB2 and THE most generous person I have ever met. She astounds me. When she gets her cheque (and I did her taxes for her- she got by on 9 grand last year!!!)she gets her pepsi and cigarettes (though she is trying to quit) and if we walk the dogs to DQ she pushes in front of me and says "I'm paying"... I don't know if having nothing to lose makes one like this or if it's just her, but I've learned a lot from her... she lost her father last week to cancer and her neighbours and friends paid her way home to Ontario so she could be by his bedside. She gardens for people and some pay her well (some take advantage and pay her crap) and yeah, she is working under the table but really... she is working her butt off in the hot sun doing labour "professionals" make three times as much doing. She has considered applying to the city for a landscaping job but feels they won't accept her because of her mental illness and bad eyesight. If she is what society considers "mentally ill" I don't know what the heck the rest of us are...

Since there has been no repair to the thread's comment box containing the third part of this four part series about welfare abuse by the gordon liar government I am going to comment on the third thread here. I believe I saw some of wcg's successes just now when I was out doing my shopping, some were holding impromptu garage sales on the street, and others were dumpster diving. More of wcg's successes can undoubtedly be found in the city morgue, another glittering facet in the bloody jewel of the gordon liar economic miracle... So wcg is now making probably at least 23 million a year by making the poor and the disabled jump through hoops on inadequate nutrition and funding....how typical of this pack of mendacious, backstabbing thugs who campaigned again and again on a taxcut that was "going to jump start the economy, thereby leaving all kinds of money to fund social programs"....are these jobs, some lasting less than a month, some of the jobs the bc liars are always bragging about creating in the fraser institute times, otherwise known as the vancouver sun?? And have there been any suicides from the tender mercies extended to wcg clients? And has triumph vocational, their corporate arm, or fist, that "helps" the disabled asked ANY of the disabled people FORCED INTO THEIR OFFICE BY GORDON LIAR IF THEY FEEL CAPABLE OF WORKING, IF PHYSICAL ACTIVITY OF ANY KIND INCREASES THEIR AGONY, as they make the "employable" by teaching them windows 98 programs on obsolete computers? I very much doubt it. AND, wcg is receiving taxpayer dollars for tracking people who probably would have found work anyway, while simultaneously abusing those incapable of working, unbelievable, contemptable and ....criminal. But isn't that really the ONLY thing the bc neoliberals are all about, taking money and social transfers meant to benefit the poor, the disabled, the sick, the young, the old and the dying and then handing them as OUTRIGHT GIFTS TO THEIR CORPORATE FRIENDS AND OWNERS WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY DESTROYING AS MANY DECENT PAYING JOBS AS POSSIBLE??? AND, as to the fraser porkstitute's bootlicking support of wcg, remember the fraser institute was ALL IN FAVOR OF THROWING UNEMPLOYABLE MEN AND WOMEN IN THEIR SIXTIES INTO THE STREET UNDER THE TWO YEAR TIME LIMIT, but gordon liar realized that not even canewest media spin would be able to conceal THE ENORMOUS SOCIAL CRISIS THIS WOULD ENGENDER, A CRISIS WHICH HE IS NO DOUBT PLANNING ON REVIVING SHOULD BC VOTERS BE HEARTLESS AND STUPID ENOUGH TO GRANT HIM ANOTHER TERM IN OFFICE ....truly not just morally bankrupt, but subterranean in its weasel hearted murderous intent....I would suggest that the pivot legal society or simillar organizations track every suicide and death caused by wcg and gordon liar so that the lawsuits can begin as soon as possible after may 17, 2005....

"to coyote.. what do you think unions have been trying to do... " writes Beyond Hope.

I see what you see, and I don't disagree with you at all, my friend. It isn't easy. One has to be strong-, and smart. Think strong and smart. :-) There's no doubt we are all, including unions and their influence, in one hell of a mess. It's the measure of the job that has to be done, eh. :-) Hang in there. It ain't over 'til it's over-, and the fat lady sings. :-)

And Tsanh, I'm glad you find something worthwhile in what I try to do and say here. Eh, we're all talking, trying to work and sort things out together here, deal with the Brownshirts :-), and hopefully, inspire ourselves to "keep picking and struggling away " at it-, organizing ourselves and our lives. A good evening to you. :-)

And Fiona, I liked your story about your friend. She sounds like a number of good people I've known in my life. (I was taken over by welfare at one point in my life, as a 14 year old street kid. It's a long time ago now, but I remember.)

Eh, people, I enjoyed near all of your stories. That's why we need this site. Maybe we can use it, to get a fightback happening.

The Brownshirts and trolls? (Often one and the same.) Ehhh, that's life right. Shit has a way of sticking to your shoes, so that the smell follows you around. :-) You could live the life of a saint, never have sex, never hurt nor argue with anybody, starve yourself and do nothing but good works, and there'd still be somebody you'd piss off. :-)

To truly live is to struggle. (And smell the roses once in awhile, or watch a bird on the wing.)

I was looking at afree copy of the vancouver scum today, for the vaughn palmer column, the only thing worth reading besides stephen hume once a month, and read a statement claiming that p3s save money. Other than p3s like wcg that save the government money by causing suicides among the poor and the disabled I HAVE YET TO HEAR OF A SINGLE P3 ANYWHERE OTHER THAN WCG THAT HAS NOT PROVEN MORE EXPENSIVE THAN PUBLICALLY OWNED FACILITIES....I DEFY ANYONE TO NAME EVEN ONE P3 (besides wcg that has saved money by helping the government throw the poor into the street) THAT HAS SAVED ANY GOVERNMENT ANYWHERE ONE THIN DIME...of course the decent jobs destroyed and people now unable to pay significant taxes is another matter....p3s: first they pee on the taxpayer privately, then they pee on him publically, and finally they pee all over your children's future...let the lawsuits begin...

Coyote: Hope I didn't interrupt you from watching that bird on the wing but that's a fine, fine comment on the "unions of business." Nothing more tight knit than a Chamber of Commerce, or the banking industry. All those business councils and associations are like glue when it comes to protecting their own interests or as you so aptly put their own "welfare support systems." It's a highly weaved structure as you suggest - with real disdain for the rest of us if we should get the same idea.

so what's fair Kit? Do you have a vision?

lewis swift, I would just like to applaud your passion and say how much I enjoy your comments and if it's not too personal may I ask who you are going to vote for may 17th 2005?

undecided.

concerning welfare worker's comments about the govenment's move to privitize welfare service in clearwater. i'm not sure why this is making the news at this point as if it's something that's brand new!, it's not, this service has been provided here for quite a while - following is a direct quote from the local clearwater newspaper, The North Thompson Times - "The invitation was looking for organizations interested in acting as a "trusted third party" in Clearwater. The North Thompson Community Skills Center has been operating in that role for about two years now. Staff at the skills center have application forms and other information on hand for welfare clients. They provide communication by telephone, fax or computer with MHR workers. They also verify that the person whose name is on a form really is the one who sends it in. Skills center staff do not act as counselors, and they do not keep files on any of the clients."

With regard to political policy, I've commented many a time. Visions are what one practices, first. And I share of my time and personal effort. Having a vision is perhaps equally about listening to genuine contribution, and being vulnerable to credible input, in terms of one's own standard of common sense. It's also not about being anonymous, in my view. Each person has their degree of comfort on the topic. Obviously.

Some political startings points? If you came upon two people - one obviously "challenged", the other "more affluent" - to whom would one give spare money if you had it in hand? Ask yourself what's going on now - and I feel it's important not to drip torture one's head with "trickle theory" beliefs.

Some might say they'd help neither. The world is a plain of a random world - why care? Some might suggest never the struggling one - it's their "fault". Some might further believe that neither of the two is a mirror of themselves at some personal level. And on the latter - that - in my view is where empathy, compassion and personal (or social) development ends - and the gateway to tyranny appears.

I feel partly responsible for the monstrous acts imparted by the representations of governance, and its representatiive agents, currently in Victoria.Not because of whichever party I happen to "vote for", but instead, of what I believe - really believe - that - and this is an aspect of my personal core ideas and beliefs - what I'm convinced of (at this time) - that may have brought this version of governance into my personal experience as I happen to know it. How does one govern themselves in their day to day? what is ones beliefs - what impulses does one follow in constant imagination and subsequent direct action - why? ..maybe where and what is the nature of government?

Regarding P3's: I still don't get how privatizing public services saves money?? From every contract I know of the private provider has a profit margin built into the contract. On top of that, governments particularly like to deal with their friends, giving them monopolies. I have worked for an instituition that got government contracts and they managed it the same way as a bureaucrat would: they got their budget and burned through it. There was no incentive to work underbudget because if there was any money leftover, we could not apply for as much next time. In addition, there was no public "honour" in working for a private company. I don't know how to explain this, other to say that there is some feeling of honour and working for the public good when one works directly for the government. I think that feeling is what keeps many government workers honest and engaged...So why is there never an uproar amongst the economic type "specialists"? Dishing out exclusive contracts to your friends to do the governments' work is not free-enterprise, efficient, invisible-hand capitalism. The spin of this government is always to say it's free-enterprise, and that they are unlike those evil socialists. But it's not. They're hypocrits. Why don't the experts ever point out the emperor wears no clothes? I'm just so tired of hearing how government has to be run like a business. The BC Ferries was created by the government when the private BlackBall Ferry couldn't make any money. We have public hospitals because no one can make a profit providing health care to the masses. The government says all children must go to school, but now they want to make a profit out of that too. I don't mind paying for the sick, the disabled, those who are unlucky (don't bash welfare, because your luck could turn and it could be you). But I hate corporate welfare junkies. You talk the talk, you walk the walk. Want to make a profit, go out and hustle like everyone else.

TYEE EDITOR: PLEASE REPAIR THE COMMENT BOX FOR THE THIRD ARTICLE ON WELFARE CONCERNING WCG. HAS THIS THREAD BEING HACKED TO DAMAGE THE COMMENT BOX?? This is an important thread in the overall discussion and would have already attracted far more comment were the comment box in working order....

jane eyre, I am assuming your ambition is not to marry an aristocrat as your monicker did...just kidding.....that was one of the few ways out for women in those days...I will of course be voting for the ndp, as the greens can only split the vote, and as, adrianne carr has, in any case, not said a word about gordon liar's despicable attacks on the average person in bc which includes far more than just the poor and the disabled, but also in my opinion, anyone except those making $70,000 a year with no dependendants, and then, no matter how wealthy you are there are still quality of life issues such as safe streets, breathable air, and, LET'S FACE IT, basic human decency....I think a large number of the merely well off in bc will be quite surprised to find just how many LOOPHOLES there are in private medical plans if campbell and his ilk succceed in destroying medicare, they will find themselves needing lawyers as well as doctors, because the ceo s of such plans decide what's "neccesary," not doctors...I have never been surprised by gordon liar's real agenda, and I predicted to anyone that would listen the moment I heard of the massive, uncampaigned upon taxcut for the rich, that has been their pathetic, mendacious excuse to set social justice back 30 years, that the poor and the disabled were going to pay for that unneccesary and unneeded tax cut in what was already a jurisdiction with one of the lowest tax rates for the wealthy in the country, in a country with the one of the lowest tax rates for that same group among first world countries, and sure enough, it was determined in the remarkably short space of 8 months that the taxcuts had not paid for themselves, and that now, according to gordon liar's psychopathic logic it was now OPEN SEASON ON BC'S MOST VULNERABLE....I would also point out that campbell was a rotten mayor who destroyed an enormous amount of heritage housing in bc for the benefit of his developer owners, and that he told the truth about his real agenda in the 96 election and it cost him that election, canwest media might as well rename itself "how far can we crawl up gordon campbell's butt today," they really seem to love it up there....the price we pay for a media monopoly many third world countries would not tolerate...if he is reelected say goodbye to icbc and bc hydro, no matter what gordon liar campaigns on, I believe he has shown a thousand times over his word is WORTHLESS... Bonnie, your points about the pitfalls of P3s are generally excellent, but there is one thing you left out I believe, THE PRIVATE SECTOR IN P3s TAKES ALL OF THE PROFITS; THE TAXPAYER TAKES ALL OF THE RISKS...One reason gordon liar is so anxious for the RAV line is that not only will his friends get the money, while the public will get the inevitable cost over runs (JUST LIKE THE OLYMPICS) but also I believe that, if you know the lower mainland and remember the mall that went belly up, just on the other side of the cambie street bridge, (Knightsport?) in Richmond, this same mall is now on the proposed RAV line route, gambling has just been rammed through by the bc liars and a new development, complete with a huge casino is being built at this site, at least according to my sources, so it's payback time for gordon liar to his owners...can anyone back me up on this, I could be wrong about there being a new casino there, but I don't think I am...best wishes to all the decent people in bc....

lewis, jane's ambition was never to marry an aristocrat but to find a decent morally sound partner who would treat her as an equal and I guess my ambition is to find the same in a provincial leader......what do you think my chances are....maybe my grandkids?

Now that you have refreshed my memory, I realize you are quite right, jane eyre was not ambitious, I stand corrected.... Tell all your friends about articles like this and vote ndp next election, and your grand kids may have a better chance, and yes, jane, I know the ndp aren't perfect....but carole james does have ethics, and what bc liberal can say as much...

I look forward to the day when people who do not support the Liberals (myself emphatically included)stop providing ammunition to them. The more people rant in this forum, the more the Liberals can go on pretending that they are the fiscally responsible party concerned about the future. I appreciate that many people have strong opinions about welfare reform, but I ask you to consider the following. Everyone wants welfare reform--except the voters. The NDP has historically fallen into the trap of announcing, with the best of intentions, its platform--thereby providing an issue upon which it can be attacked. They fall for it every time. Let's face the truth. To most people, welfare reform equals higher taxes. Believe you me, the average person cares more about the price of gas than about recipients. Don't give me the nonsense about how the corporations should pay their share of tax. This is naive. Corporations go offshore for tax avoidance reasons, and will continue to do so, taking jobs with them. I am in favour of welfare reform. For example, anyone who is truly disabled should receive a non-contributory pension. It is an affront to the dignity of disabled people to make them go to a welfare office for their money. Seventy five percent of the managers in MHR are surplus to requirement and should be employed elsewhere. We also need to look at personal responsibility. Income assistance is a right, providing one's own means of suppport is a responsibility. There are far too many poets, painters, writers, protesters, and transients getting benefits. People ought not be able to pass the bill for their lifestyle choices to the taxpayers. I hope that any NDP candidate, who says anything about welfare reform, has made other arrangements for an income for the next five years. Could everyone please get off the moral high ground, and grasp a postion for real political change. The way you guys talk, it's as if you WANT the Liberals to get back in. Keep it up, and they will.

Well, andy shrite, here's a comment from the biggest ranter of them all: first of all I don't think that all people are nearly as cold as you say, and often seem to be from your "rant" above. This has been proved by all the sympathy towards, say, the woodward's squatter's for one, from all segments of the population...if all people are so callous as to care more about the price of gas than their children and other people's then campbell will win anyway. And while there may be far too many managers, like robin cicero in the welfare system, I don;t think there are too many poets and artists, there will always be unemployed people in any system and poets and artists enrich everyone, just not the rich, j.k. rowling, the harry potter author was on welfare in england...There are different kinds of welfare reform, constructive, and destructive like everything done by gordon ******....THere are lots of selfish reasons for a CONSTRUCTIVE approach to welfare reform such as providing REAL training, as opposed to resume writing classes, which the ndp has also been guilty of, SO, Carole James, needs to take a consructive approach to welfare reform thus stealing the campbell agenda, rather than lettting campbell simply push her to the right; the more she shuts up, the more the liberals will be successfull at this....the shamefull profits of wcg for doing very little is an excellent place to start, the ndp only gave them 2 million a year, not 26 million, other selfish reasons for helping the poor include homeless crapping on your lawn, and panhandling everywhere in your neighbourhood which neither helps real estate values or enhance quality of life, some of these people become desperate, and it could be YOUR condo they're breaking into at 3am...simply saying, shut up and don't defend the poor is just letting campbell set the agenda, and as to those "taxcuts," a huge number of peole had them clawed back, james can keep the taxcuts for the middle class and claw back the ones for big business and the wealthy, and, NO, they won't all leave the province as long as there's a dollar to be made, social justice does not come about by allowing yoursrelf to be bullied and driven to the right by canwest, nor will it provide a win for carole james in the next election, james needs to include where gordon ******** excludes, a lack of courage never wins anything...

Andy writes "There are far too many poets, painters, writers, protesters, and transients getting benefits. People ought not be able to pass the bill for their lifestyle choices to the taxpayers." That's rich! They don't call them starving artists for nothing. Think of all the gallery owners who would soon go bankrupt if it were not for Canada Council grants. The standard commision a distributer will charge to represent an artist runs 30 to 40 percent and they always seem to have some knock-off artist who's cousin is more than happy to copy your work for next to nothing to deal with. Of course nobody really downloads music for free. That's just a corporate scam to bleed more money out of you. Anyone ever heard of anyone buying a book that wasn't on the top ten best sellers list? Canadian movies can't even be seen in this country because Hollywood's got it all sewn up at the theaters. I can't paint a Mountie because Disney owns the image and Mattel will sue if I mock Barbie. I could go on but I think I'll make a Gordo bumper sticker to sell at Wreck instead.

Good thought, eddy, maybe that gordo sticker could be a cheshire rat sticker of gordo's grin fading out as he vanishes up his own butt, or the fraser institute's, taking 30 year's of social justice with him...all I'm askin' is 20% eddie, literary rights excluded....

Kit; Thanks for the intellectual vision which ended up lost in the alternate reality of Tyee commentators above (abstract to say the least). In answer to your question - I would give it to the one who needed it the most. I don't think it's a monstrous act of the current or any government to give welfare cheats the heave ho. I think we would agree that government finances are finite and persons who subvert the system take directly from the poor. For example. and as a political starting point. A person who is physically able to put in full afternoon shifts writing nightly novels online obviously is capable of work, and should not qualify. (I suppose in that case a possible excuse could be that no one is willing to pay for his cerebral work) - However, it is equally possible the writer is precluded from seeking employment because he is currently an inmate in an asylum.

Kit; Thanks for the intellectual vision which ended up lost in the alternate reality of Tyee commentators above (abstract to say the least). In answer to your question - I would give it to the one who needed it the most. I don't think it's a monstrous act of the current or any government to give welfare cheats the heave ho. I think we would agree that government finances are finite and persons who subvert the system take directly from the poor. For example. and as a political starting point. A person who is physically able to put in full afternoon shifts writing nightly novels online obviously is capable of work, and should not qualify. (I suppose in that case a possible excuse could be that no one is willing to pay for his cerebral work) - However, in all fairness it is equally possible the writer is precluded from seeking employment because he is currently an inmate in an asylum.

shame on you john smith, open discussions such as this with many view points is freedom....it's were many a solution is born. turn on your tv, pick up a paper people are dying(being killed)for freedom of speech. we are blessed to live in a country were we can say what we think openly with no fear. open you mind john and learn from the lives and views of others....you may not always like what is said but every now and then you might learn something

Thanks Lewis. The point I was trying to make is that much of our society lives rather well off the backs of our artists who are generally not very affluent. Although you only asked for twenty percent, you did prove my point. I meet many clients who complain about the price tag even though you are doing them a favour by doing it at cost. Face it! We are a cheap and miserly society. But you can say anything through Hallmark card for six bucks and the cards are hot sellers and made by artists who are earning next to nothing. So I don't really mind if some of my tax money goes towards keeping an artist fed during his hard times. We all benefit in the end. And to those who don't like artists, I say look inside your house and check out how everything inside was designed and conceived by an artist before you critisize them.

Yes Janie - I'm not surprised at your active response given your obviously close connection to the booby hatch. - found a man yet?

Yes Janie - I'm not surprised at your active response given your obviously close connection to the booby hatch. - found a man yet?

wow john not entirely sure how to respond to that. why so hostile?

I'm not hostile. - but now that you mention it, I was responding to Kit and no one asked you to butt in.

I did not mean any disrespect to you, eddie, I just thought there was a small possibility that you might be interested in coming up with a cheshire rat sticker or t-shirt. I agree that creative people are dreadfully exploited, and think that the situation is even worse for writers, because agents and publishers can demand exclusivity and then do nothing, as happened to me...as well it is much easier for musicians and artists to expose their work to the public, although I have always held that dire straight's mark knophler's (sp?) song "in the gallery," if you've heard it has a lot of truth, artists of all stripes need to get control over their own product, I understand a litle headway is being made with creative sharing, in which artists post their work, but not the rights to it on the net, always find your posts well worth reading eddie..........right, "john smith," you're not hostile, and gordon campbell is a prince, learn to lose, loser, it's the only thing you show any talent at, I,m pretty sure I know who you are, but then again, who really cares?

Robert crumb, one of my heroes, worked for hallmark at disgustingly low wages, didn't he? I don't mean any thing by this, just thought you might find it of interest, eddie...best of luck to you in your artistic endeavours, meant to mention this in last post.....

Why not investigate inter-species love, mr. coma, I doubt you'll ever find a human being to tolerate you, and you may well have been incarnated in the wrong phylum, anyway....love and kisses, your immeasurable superior, louis the swift....

dear john in regards to your response to kit I have several thoughts on that: 1)under the guise of response you took some very cheap shots at someone else. 2)as for my "butting in" last time a checked this was a public forum and I don't beleive I need an invitation. 3)I never set out to offend you but I certainly would like to now....do you always have that affect on women?

Sorry Mr. Swift but you're off topic. In this editorial we're commenting about welfare bums. Your life story no doubt.

Thanks Lewis.. no probs here though. Unfortunately, I don't know what a Chestire Rat is. I'm asuning it is a Swift character whose writings I have never explored. I am dyslexic and as you might have noticed, I can't spell. Tha Geek noticed I can't read either when I got his handle wrong on another post. I grew up in the sixties when such an inpediment meant you were a trouble maker in school so if someone suggests that we all have the same oportunities to succeed in the world, I say up yours pal.

And I thought the topic was stupid, reactionary thugs willing to sell out their children for nickels, your life story no doubt....and I am undoubtedly several million foot pounds of dirty, dangerous, underpaid work ahead of you sonny...I consider someone with your empathy unfit to belong to the human species, someone willing to attack disabled children and the children of the poor for money they're probably too stupid to realize they didn't even get after clawbacks and user fees, your humanity is as much a joke in poor taste as your posts...I feel sorry for your entire family....Mr "smith"...you couldn't debate your way out of the wet paper bag filled with empty beer cans in the back seat of gordon campbell's car in his hawaii sojourns...I"ve known derelicts who are your immeasurable superior....that on topic enough for you?

And I thought the topic was stupid, reactionary thugs willing to sell out their children for nickels, your life story no doubt....and I am undoubtedly several million foot pounds of dirty, dangerous, underpaid work ahead of you sonny...I consider someone with your empathy unfit to belong to the human species, someone willing to attack disabled children and the children of the poor for money they're probably too stupid to realize they didn't even get after clawbacks and user fees, your humanity is as much a joke in poor taste as your posts...I feel sorry for your entire family....Mr "smith"...you couldn't debate your way out of the wet paper bag filled with empty beer cans in the back seat of gordon campbell's car in his hawaii sojourns...I"ve known derelicts who are your immeasurable superior....that on topic enough for you?

Janie erie - I hope so! - Mr. Smith - whatever.

Using Gordo's mugshot and the image of Mad Magazine's Alfred E Nueman, I've concocted the image a Gordo E Neuman and the caption reads "What... me worry". For a political satirist Gordo's pure gold. I'll miss him but it will be nice not to worry about him any longer.

Sounds good, eddie, even if a trifle unflattering to alfred, perhaps you should include a 5 martinis and 2 bottles of wine in the graphic, best wishes, -lewis

The cheshire rat is from lewis carroll's alice in wonderland, eddie, although carroll used a cheshire cat instead, and it consists of an amalgam of campbell's face and a rat's vanishing up his own butt or the fraser institute's leaving just that slowly fading out amphetamine rictus, of gordon campbell's excuse for a smile as he takes thirty years of social justice with him, carroll had the cat's grin slowly fading away...and as a writer, albeit unpublished, your posts read very well eddie...

The cheshire rat is from lewis carroll's alice in wonderland, eddie, although carroll used a cheshire cat instead, and it consists of an amalgam of campbell's face and a rat's vanishing up his own butt or the fraser institute's leaving just that slowly fading out amphetamine rictus, of gordon campbell's excuse for a smile as he takes thirty years of social justice with him, carroll had the cat's grin slowly fading away...and as a writer, albeit unpublished, your posts read very well eddie...

Just had an inspiration, a bursting new way to both jump start the economy and to give the bc liberals all due credit for their part in the...miracle....What I propose to jumpstart the economy is no less than THE GORDON CAMPBELL COMMEMORATIVE TOILET which comes in a regular john as well as a urinal model, for a bc FLUSH with success...And, now wait for it, EVERY toilet or urinal, has a smiling picture of our honorable premier, gord.....Well, think of the economic benefits, these appliances would be BEST SELLERS, for after all, turnabout is only fair play, why, I estimate as much as 65% of the populatiion would be KEENLY interested in buying one, and even the t-shirts for the john, and the narrow ties, for the urinals, of course, would be bestsellers, AND, the APTNESS, the cosmic synchronicity rocks...the toilet paper could be supplied by the fraser institute with a delicate, floral pattern embroidered around all of the misleading statements in canwest newspapers that the economy of bc has somehow, gosh, quick, IN ANY WAY AT ALL, THINK! DAMN IT! BEEN AIDED BY THE BC LIBERALS, we could use copies of a just social contract for toilet paper, but alas the bc liberals have, of course, already flushed that, just as they have flushed the lives of numerous poor people who have built this province straight down the toilet, as well as their valiant attempts to flush as many disabled people as well, truly, a bc, FLUSH WITH SUCCESS...tyee editor, this a swiftian post, please don't blame anyone else...I think it would really show a lot of courage, if you kept it.....

Did I mention the smiling photos come in both hawaian and chamber o' commerce flavors??

Over to you Carole James. These are your constituents - congratulations!

And yet you haven't managed to rebutt a single point I or anyone else has made, "john smith", guess you were too busy selling out your kids for a 50 buck taxcut....I see where gordon campbell has alienated many of his constituents in West Vancouver of all places, with yet one more backstabbing lie, "the greenest olympics ever" is going to put a 200 meter wide highway through an ecologically insensitive area, what MUTTS, bc liberal supporters really are...

Whatever.

You're a mutt, jb, oh, I mean "john smith"....

It's OK Lewis, I'll agree. Gordo's supporters seem a little disshevelled with their writings. And Gordo's caucus appears to be avoiding the public instead of gladhanding at local events. During our Santa Claus Parade our MLA was booed and she did not come out afterwards and mingle with the crowd in the city square as is the tradition of past years. I'm not saying the Libs have discovered how to be invisible. They are just hard to see or find.

Eddy, our MLA, rarely comes to his constituency office anymore, and hasn't for the last few years because there are always "three or four" picketers outside the door. Oh, the scary humanity of it all! It will be an interesting election because Campbell is going to have to be parachuted in and out of chamber of commerces all over BC - I think the media has no idea of the degree of animosity people feel for him, especially outside the lower mainland.

I think mr smith is probably some mla or a relative of an mla thats how they win votes with the populace, they make people poor then demonize them at the same time, so hence poor people are alway lazy, blah blah, being rich is very good , there are always someone that will speak out about how poor people offend them .the folks cut off welfare have either moved on to family, friends, other provinces.. some went to the streets heard of lots of those, pretty shoddy care of such a huge ministry where's the paper work? where is the follow up? where is the " we are going to be accountable" what has happened to all these folks?? someone from the media should be asking the minister in camera these tough questions, they must have all gotten shin splints from running around digging up dirt on the former goverment the poor are poorer no surprise and the minstry could give sh**T about it..

A wise person once said. "The law in its majestic equality forbids the rich and the poor from sleeping under bridges and stealing loaves of bread." This governments attacks on the poor and less fortunate in our soceiety borders on Criminal behaviour.Some could argue indeed it nears economic genocide. Lets call a spade a spade. If Mr Campbell claims that 87,000 people who formerly were on assistance are now gainfully employed lets say it. You Mr. Permier are an unmitigated lier. How do we know this to be true? Just witness the numbers sleeping near the Georgia Viaduct. Or the numbers sleeping near Lougheed Mall.. The hundreds in whalley sleeing outside. The fact that we worry about homeless in Stanely Park starting fires to cook food and keep warm. I have an idea. Everyday when going to find work I drive by Saint Marys hospital in New West, it sits empty as a tribute to The Campbell governments progressive public health policy. Since it has no purpose for those needing medical attention then perhaps Our government should convert it to low cost housing. Its built already, the rooms are there. Perhaps even the beds havent yet been auctioned off...Come on Gord put your checkbook where we know your heart isnt,

Sorry Tom. The St. Marys building has been sold to Nat Bosa and is slated to capitalize on one of the most panaramic views of the Fraser. It was all HUSH HUSH, you know.

In addition to the above post regarding St. Marys Hospital. Now that it is no longer a hospital the land needs to be rezoned before it can be developed into condos. I am unaware if that has happened but the developer would also like some public easements such as the North end of Merrivale Street. The New West Parks also wants that portion of the street to extend the courtyard of the adjacent museum, the Irving House. Who will win the use of the street? My guess will be the developer.

Another response to John Smith; I think, sir that you mistake the nature of welfare fraud. These are not people pretending to be poor so they can avoid having to eat well or dress well or have medicine or whatever. It's really not a matter of fake back injuries. These are career criminals, and they have jobs. What they do at work is this: first they establish several dozen false IDs. They forge them, or steal them or plant false records or reanimate the dead, their papers anyway. I'm sure they have many tricks nobody has caught them at yet.

Then they find out what the interviewers will be looking for, and whatever that is, they fake it up and present it to the welfare worker like a fly to a trout. It's an exercise in misdirection, set design and disguise. Then they go off and collect their many cheques in many names and cash them. They don't mind that the cheques are only $510, because they get thirty of them.

Every time there's a postal strike the welfare workers watch the line ups and cut off a few dozen of these fictional people and it makes no difference at all. None of these identities lasts that long anyway, they just make new ones. No change in rules to pretend the mentally ill are really faking it, or that chronic back pain is no bar to working at Tim Hortons will stop them, they just figure out the new rules, redesign their sets and disguises to fit and off they go. It's what they do for a living. There aren't so very many of them probably, but their number doesn't vary with rule changes.

You should get this, you have something in common with them; You both are committed to things that aren't true, and most of them started getting new names at about 17 too.

Your hatred of the poor is just bigotry, sir, however you try to dress it as righteous indignation.

Well done, bailey!!

Yesterday morning the neighbours of my friend who is on DB2 (who I mentioned earlier on this thread) called me and asked me to come over because they could hear her screaming and crying. We all went over there and found out she had just received a call that her brother in Ontario (who was schizophrenic) had died of an overdose. He was 32. She just returned from her father's funeral two weeks ago; he died of cancer. I took it upon myself to start calling all her mental health contacts to see if anyone could help with arranging another flight home for her. This is what I did: I phoned the mental health emergency number and was told they could do nothing and that I had to contact her social worker or call the emergency after-hours number. I then called her social worker but got an answering machine with a message that they are open Mon-Fri only; leave a message. So I then tried the after hours emerg (which the woman at the first # had discouragingly told me in advance "probably can't do anything" as my friend would need the death certificate to get emergency funds). When I called the after-hours # they passed me on to another number which was busy. I tried the volunteer-run emergency # twice and they were busy. They did, however, provide other #'s which I didn't try calling. Now if I were a person with a mental sickness who had just received this news and had no one to help out, how would I be feeling at this point, I wondered.

Eventually she got hold of her sister who gave her her credit card # to book a flight with. At this point I'd like to add that the WestJet representatives were the kindest, most sincere people I spoke to. She was on a flight this morning to Ontario, this time for her brother's funeral. This friend of mine has bi-polar disease and suffers from depression. Yesterday was a day that I don't think I would have handled one one-hundredth as well as she did if I had been in her shoes. Having V, B, L, and I around helped, I imagine, and luckily she has us as a surrogate family out here, but for all those with mental sicknesses who perhaps don't have this support community, yesterday proved to me that the gov't (who employs how many people with our tax money to supposedly help people in times of crisis?) is not coming through for them when they truly need it.

I for one have left the welfare payroll, I am going to Malaspina to get my Social Services Diploma. I am not doing well since getting off welfare. I spent the summer struggling to survive with my four children, three of which I receive the child tax for. We had to live on the amount of child tax for three months, not easy deciding between paying bills, eating ,buying much needed shoes or rent . I actually thought we would be living on the street, and would have had it not been for my eldest daughter moving in with us and helping pay for rent and food. She too left welfare and could not survive on her own with two children and a Min. wage job. So we stick together and do what we can to live at least not too hungry. I would like to be include in an exit survey. How are people to live on min. wage jobs. I can not even get a min. wage job as I have no work experience to speak of, to get a janitorial job rerquires more skills than knowing how to push a broom. Welfare says go -get a JOB any job, we need guidance to get the skills needed to get even the simplist job. This is not provided. It goes back to that saying give a man a fish or teach him how to fish Big difference in the two.

Say.... where did all the welfare case's go? There stealing my car and breaking into my house. My children apprenticing grow op. 101 Six dollars a hour......Six hundred a month rent..... Who would you work for! homedepot or superstore or Jimmy Patterson's sweat shops around B.C.