We need a negative income tax to support the working poor. Anybody who works should not be in poverty. If Carol James campagins for higher welfare we'll get another 4 years of Gordo.

"Solution" - What are you doing to promote your solution? Make sure you are part of the solution and not part of the problem.

One thing is clear. When the Liberals changed the rules that forced single mothers back to work when their child turned three it was an attack against children. It meant more pre-schoolers either being left alone or being put into inadequate care. No wonder the Liberals have taken child deaths off their performance indicators.

I am a disabled person and the campbell government has cut a $40 diet allowance that allowed me to eat relatively nourishing food, instead of bread and pasta the last two weeks of the month, forced me to attend school with a income of 250 dollars a month over my rent -my lunch was often bread and butter, or sometimes no lunch at all. I was also lied to and tricked and coerced into signing an employment plan, despite having significant disabilities. Thanks to the new 23 page disability form which many doctors don't even want to look at, I am now trapped in a grey borderland where I can probably never get a livable disability rate....now you know why lewis swift hates the bc liberals so much. I have done every dirty and dangerous job the province has to offer and am no doubt several hundred million foot pounds and numerous dirty, dangerous under-compensated jobs AHEAD of the average mindless, selfish reactionary that supports the gordon liar government. In an interview shortly before the last provincial election in the georgia straight, gordon filth made a promise that he would NOT cut welfare rates...of course he never said anything about THE MASSIVE 25% TAXCUT FOR THE RICH BROUGHT IN THE DAY AFTER THE ELECTION, which has been his excuse for attacking disabled children, inner city school children, old people in care homes, numerous other disadvantaged group, and of course, the middle class, which, no matter how many phoney polls, and rigged fraser pimpstitute statistics are proudly about in our pathetic canwest excuses for newspapers, has shrunk ever since the bc liberals got elected with a huge majority thanks to canwest generated hysteria over a deck, a twenty dollar hunting knife, and fast ferries which even if they were a mistake at least created decent paying jobs, rather than giving away well paid work for thousands of mcjobs, the only jobs , gordon liar has or ever will create, other than jobs for his friends dismantling 30 years of social justice to pay for the taxcuts for his owners. There have also been at least a half dozen well documented -except in canwest media- suicides and deaths, the one mentioned in the article, the disabled man who jumped 23 stories straight down (one for every page of the new 23 page-impossible -to-pass-disability review?) and a native person informed sheila orr on talk tv that her partner had committed suicide thanks to the new 23 page review. But remember, most pernicious has beeen the bc liar attack on children of the poor who lost 100 dollars a month this winter -this money is going to come directly from their food and clothing AND IT IS DISGRACEFUL!!! So, next may 17, 2005, when you're deciding who to vote for, when you add up your so-called "taxcut," gutted by clawbacks, user fees and the plummetting quality of life for all but the wealthy in this province don't forget to factor in all of the children and the disabled and the old who built this province that the bc liars are so busy tearing down with their heartless and COWARDLY attacks on society's most vulnerable...

So what's wrong with Lewis Swift that makes it so he can't work at all?

we live in a society that walks past sometimes dozens of homeless people a day we think about the groceries or work or school and rarely we look or acknowledge... we can't any more there are so many....some there by choice most not makes me wonder why use of crystal meth is up..it keeps you up so you don't need to think about where your going to sleep and keeps you from getting hungry how do you find a job if you have no food no money to travel... nice clothes for that job interview, we scoff and scowl and talk about passing legislation to ban those who offend us the most, but we say nothing when the biggest welfare bums give themselves another raise or a holiday at Harrison one week and another at a fishing lodge up north the next....people who abuse a public welfare system should be penalized but that must include the wealthy political types, and their cronies as for the m.la.'s let them try and live off 510$ a month...show us how to do it?? there is no one who has lived off the public purse longer than G Campbell and has done for quite a few years now, whats the difference??

What does "continous hard living" mean??

Maybe I've already DONE to my share, another tainted, blood-soaked, right wing solution to transforming a democracy into a bordello for the rich...try advanced osteoarthritis for starters...when was the last time YOU performed an unselfish act?

Years ago, I had to depend on welfare for my existence. I had left an abusive situation and my health was in serious jeopardy, so I was able to qualify as "medically unable to work". I went to bed each night with a will on my kitchen table in case I did not make it to the next day, and the landlady knew to come pounding on the door if there was no music from the radio each morning. Even with the doctor's notes, I was given bare minimum to live on, and was forced to pay for most of the medications I needed to take around the clock in order to breathe. Amazingly enough, someone was kind enough to mail me grocery store vouchers so I could eat relatively well. I did not have ANY luxuries, but I did manage to eat some plain, basic food.

The ministry of social services was on my case all of the time to try to force me off welfare even though I was seriously ill. They even cut my living allowance, trying to force me to live in a craphole of a place. They placed all manner of pressure on me, and I reminded them continuously that I was not one of the ones running in for an emergency check to tide me over, and that I was not spending my money on booze or bingo or smokes, and to leave me alone.

I am one of the lucky ones. My health improved when I was away from the stress of the abusive situation, and I managed to get off the system. One of the people I went to school with who was on welfare after being in an abusive place went the other way. She killed herself one Christmas.

I am totally against cuts to welfare. While there will always be those who will abuse it, the ones who have a genuine need for it should not be denied. It does not have to be a physical disability or illness that can render someone unemployable -- mental ilness or alcoholism/drug abuse can do the same. A person can look healthy and not be employable. I am appalled when I hear people say people should be off the system after two years. It can take longer than that to get a life in order.

Thank you, Andrew, for a well-written part one. I will be reading the next ones as well.

I had asked - So what's wrong with Lewis Swift that makes it so he can't work at all

i am appauled at what the Gordon Campbell Government is doing to the poor. The Ministers who are under Gordon Cambpell, work with him.They are not good people iether because all who work for Gordon Campbell are allowing the children.the elderly, disabled to suffer while they get a nice pay cheque, good food,nice holidays, while others who are suffering get nothing. Must be a great life watching others suffer, while the rich are getting richer the poor are geting poorer.I do not like the Government at all, it is inhuman to let the people suffer so much.The cuts are appauling and Gordon Campbell should not ever be elected again. I hope next election the people of British Columbia say NO to Goron Campbell, be smart say NO.If we don't vote Gordon Campbell in maybe life could be alot more hopeful. I am angry at the cuts that have been made in the welfare system and the poor are suffering. Do you see Gordon Campbell suffering, NO. I see him smilng all the time on TV. Do you see the people who are poor smiling or the children who don't have the right nutrional food in their house smiling, NO. Their suffering all the time, their moms and dads are crying cause the cut backs are so bad they can't give their kids what they need. It seems to me that Gordon Campbell has to go so that people don't suffer anymore.I say all those who are complaining about are Government don't vote Campbell in next election.Thanks for reading my comments. Cindy Thomas

By the way a young person that's spent ONE day less than 2 years in the workforce and then lose their job is now ineligible for assistance thanks to gordon liar... and no matter what CHERRY PICKED "good news," economic lies the vancouver scum serves up daily net migration to bc is down, good paying jobs are down and british colombians now have most expensive cities to live in while our average wages have fallen BEHIND QUEBEC, EVERY TIME YOU READ PIECE OF 'GOOD ECONOMIC NEWS IN THE SUN GO TO STRATEGIC THOUGHT.COM ABD YOU'LL FIND IT's another cherry picked fraser pimpstitute lie -COME OUT FINAL SOLUTION, OR ARE YOU TOO BUSY WETTING YOUR PANTS?

Stop referring to it as welfare and all the negative connotations associated with it. Think of it as a hand up and not a hand out. But mostly think about it on the 17 th of May 2005.

P.S. mr final nothing, you'd better hide, I just met a little ol' lady on the street, who was really mad at you, and god knows, I doubt you have the guts or the courage to stand up to her, maybe you can backstab her, while she's not looking, mr spineless....maybe you should bring some of your friends along as well, it might get rough, mr nothing....

A tax cut will set you free!

Easy there Lewis. So your an out of work Janitor and you hate Pentictonites?

There's a cognitive dissonance in all this. If you're one of the minority of people who can function well in our economic wonderland, you think everybody can. No reason why not, they just have to do what you do. If they don't, they must be lazy. It's the only possible world view you can hold. Otherwise you might have to feel responsible for them. Then how could you dedicate yourself as completely as you must to your acquisitions.

On the other hand, if you're one of the minority who by your nature will never function well in it, you can't help feeling abandoned. Those people seem to hate you, even though they don't even know you, and don't know why but you fear them, because they have the power to see you starve to death in miserable conditions while reviling you for it. And they won't hesitate to do it either, those suicides are real. The stories of horrible despair are very real.

Yet everybody thinks they are right. The neo cons are mostly Christians. They believe that whatever they believe is the only possible truth. The poor are just unwilling to believe that the very conditions of their existence mean that they don't deserve to eat food every day or live in decent rooms or without constant fear.

Our modern economy is bloated from it's recent victory over Communism. It no longer feels the need to consider anyone who doesn't fit neatly into one prefabbed slot or other. It's perfectly alright to blame the sick, the lame and the halt, the old and the young, the abused and abandoned for their own misfortune and turn back to making another pile off the influence of the pols you paid off so richly during the campaign.

Remember, all the time there's plenty of everything around for everybody. Homes don't have to be real estate or cost five year's salary, food doesn't have to be optional. They only are so that someone can become rich without working, some banker or broker or politician's aide. There's real evil here. It can only end in tears.

Thanks, adam smith, and I hate to let debate descend to the above level. But, when you get a spinelesss little nothing like mr final solution, who lacks the wit to even defebd their own point of view, then I find it's neccesary, as well as very easy to expose them for the backstabbing, reactionary, mindless, heartless, weak, impotent, walking pieces of human garbage that they are, lacking the courage, the conviction and the guts to even defend their point of view...the only thing they ever excell at is selling out their kids and grandkids for a $200 taxcut and reelecting stockwell day, that's why the conservatives will never hold power, all their supporters are mental midgits and moral pimps, too afraid of debate to even defend their own point of view they typically react by name calling, these cowards are most happy when attacking the poor, the sick and so on...I'd LOVE to engage the right in debate, but they always cut and run, unless they're featured in a canwest newspaper, where their tainted, reactionary cowardly, disproved ten times over ideas can find kindred "spirits"

Yeh, Yeh, blah blah blah, nobody's blaming anyone except for Lewis Swift, who appears to have an abnormal hate on for Pentictonites.

Lewis. Don't bother with Final Solution, which is what Hitler called the extermination of European Jewry. He is a trolling fascist dipshit, and is only feeding off your pain. He's "the enemy", and as such, outside the realm of normal discourse.

Back off, save your energy and emotions, and this guy will eventually slither away back into his hidey hole. Let him tap into your brain, and he will feed off it, and keep right on pushing your buttons. He's here to sabotage the discussion, and derail the agenda. Just a mindless little goose-stepper.

Your real friends are out here and understand. You and we don't have a need to try and win points against these Brownshirts. Stay calm, brother. :-)

I'm not Lewis Swift and I don't hate Pentictonites but I do hate the kind of witherdicks who go nyah nyah nyah and whack off because they think they've managed to pick on someone. What the Liberals have done to children in this province should have them up in front of a judge charged with cruelty and crimes against humanity. It is so obvious it shouldn't need said but I'll say it anyway; for every dollar these dimwits "save" now , society will spend ten in the future to keep today's kids behind bars. Most of the kids who wind up in conflict with the law come from impoverished homes, and CampbUll and his scum sucking cronies spend money as if it fell from the sky. But, of course, it only falls in THEIR back yard. For bottom feeding scabs like "final solution" any kick in the teeth of the less fortunate is welcome, it allows them to pretend for a little while they have some sort of value. But when they're through picking on the poor, and through going nyah nyah and finished demonstrating what utter punks they are, they are left, in the dark of the long night with the awareness that they are like the crust found under the rim of particularly filthy toilets. Gordon CampbUll has shown us all what he really is, his cohorts in the Legislature have shown what they are and now this yutz who calls himself "final solution" because he doesn't have the courage to give his real name has shown what he is. And what he is not! Don't waste your time, Lewis. The guy is so dim witted he probably thinks he has scored some sort of points... but the only point he has managed to display is the one on his microcephalic head!

I wonder what it is about Penticton, like for which Salmon Arm has a bit of a reputation as well-, as something of a haven for these Brownshirt types? Curious. In the heart of old Social Credit country, then Reform, then Alliance. I didn't see how both these places went in the recent Federal, but I would guess the new, even more reactionary, Conservatives. "Conservative"! What an understatement, eh brothers and sisters?

Solution, you proudly claim you don't even know how many kids you have because it was a crazy decade. Good role-model to whine about what someone else has done. Consider the source Lewis and move on.

Thanks , friends, and I guess I should exit this thread for awehile and give someone else a chance... it's just the attitude of little jackoffs like mr "another solution" that BURNS me to the core, because I've picked apples, pears and cherries in pentickton orchards for next to nothing and the poor are always the first to get called on when there's any dirty work to be done, yet the attitude is always the hell with the poor, what do they do except all the dirty work for next to nothing, and everytime some right wing piece of garbage gets elected we're the first to get attacked and usually the last to get redress when that piece of garbage is thrown out of office. Hell, the ndp holds the two provincial seats it does because they're in the two poorest ridings in the province, and yet they're still in denial about all the poor bashing under harcourt, and mcphail, yet without us they possibly wouldn't even have those two seats, thanks to canwest's disgusting media monopoly...and the ndp under harcourt also let canwest play them like violins, depicting all poor peolpe as junkies, who, while they deserve help and sympathy do NOT constitute all poor people...you know the poor in canada are now at least one sixth of the population, and contrary to canwest media they do vote, and the middle class, which shrinks every year, has no rights if the poor have no rights, nor will the ndp ever regain power if it refuses to speak out for the poor, I wanted to use mr nothing's ignorance as a way of highlighting the lies and contradictions of gordon liar and his apparently mindless supporters...the sun ran yet another editorial today attacking welfare recipients, a group that includes single mothers and their children as well as the disabled and those just down on their luck or victims of the gordon campbell economic miracle...anyway thanks, again, and I guess I should shut up for awhile, not my strong point as both my friends and enemies would agree...

Great piece. The Coell interview is rather good example of one of Raulston Saul's unconscious manager types who spew meaningless stats to justify policy decisions. 7000 jobs but over 10 times that looking for jobs It's sad.

Lewis rocks! The Final Binette does not.

I bow in admiration to your great creative facility, particularly with descriptive nouns. Witherdicks for one, I never heard that one before. It's really very good. My favourite used to be fuckwit, and before that dipstick, but I think I have a new favourite now.

One thing that is constantly overlooked, when people are discussing social assistance, is just how little it actually costs in relation to the governments entire budget. It is a mere drop in the bucket but it is such a hot button issue for conservative minded people to reform (read cut) social assistance. I wouldn't be surprised if more tax dollars were spent on the privatization of the coq' and advertising for the Olympics. Perhaps the author of this series can provide us with some hard numbers related to the financial cost of welfare. Personally I think it's disgusting that people are forced to live so far below the poverty line, and I'm embarassed that our country of riches treats people in this manner.

Another thing people usually miss with social assistance is how much of a role it plays in the economics of a local community. This money is generally spent in the community as apposed to out of the area or the country. It benefits the local landlords and local stores. Remember to write as if you are facing the person you are directing your comments to,

Essentially, poverty at the bottom end of society, whatever historical social form we are looking at, from the great slave societies of Greek and Roman times, through the aristocratic "monarchist" feudalism system to modern Corporate Capitalism, is the social outcome of class divisions in society which result in too much of the economic product being taken off at the top class end, to feed opulent wealth and life styles, and leaving too little for the bottom class end.

While there is no study of this issue of which I am aware that deals with the most "super rich" investor class among us, earning say, over $1000,000 dollars per year, (The "reportable" upper limit, statistically, in the U.S., is this figure. And there are multi-millionaires and billionaires earning hundreds of millions of dollars per year. Thus protecting the "financial anonymity of this class, and scewing the available figures towards the Upper Middle Class, professional and managerial strata.) even then, 1997 figures for the U.S. Cencus Bureau showed that the incomes there for the top 20% of society were 13 times higher than those for the bottom 20%. (Much out of date figures for current reality, I know.) And still, like I say, this does not adequately reflect the real disparity between the most wealthy percentile, earning say many times more than $1,000,000 per year and the rest of us. (The "Super-rich" capitalist class amongst us are "computerized right out of the statistical picture-, one can speculate, to hide them from us. Only "guesstimates" can be made of the most wealthy.) Compare that with your mother raising a family on welfare, or Lewis, where every penny of their income is closely scrutinized and monitored for "cheating".

The case can be made and is, by environmental experts, that while growth in human populations are jeopardizing the viability of the planet, also are our standard of living expectations from the natural order; talking SUVs, Humvees, and all the other "excesses" of contemporary "Western life" . If that be true, and they may well be right, I suspect, then the first thing that is going to have to be done to achieve a "social concensus" that will allow future generations to deal with that, is to "first of all" achieve a more equitable distribution of the socio-economic product across the class spectrum, even mayhaps the elimination of classes (I can dream.), period, and at least deal especially with the outrageuous expectations and lifestyles of, not only the rich and famous among us, but the super-rich capitalist class amongst us, who hide their "take" behind mountains of bureaucracy and secrecy, to say nothing of off-shore accounts.

Short of that, the poor will continue to ever be with us, along with the super-rich, the other side of that locked-in equation between rich and poor, AND we will continue to degrade the natural environment into "natural" extinction. >P>

And to get to there, I suggest, we are talking a major "power shift" in the relationship between said same rich and poor, as a prerequisite.

Our governments are forgetting their history lessons. What do they think mass desparation leads to? Then increase this to the global level. Fasten your seatbelts ...

i am sickened by the term final solution. it seems to me that income assistance should be a national program rather than a provincial initiative. we have campbell and klein each trying to claim the prize for being the hardest on the poor and down trodden. i can't decide who is the bigger dork, ralph or gordon.

Billy, it doesn't mtater who is the biggest dork (Gordo or Ralph-it-up), or who has the biggest dork for that matter.

I agree with Tha Geek above--none of Gordo's attacks on the poor, the disabled, single moms, older folks, students, the list goes on are fiscal--though they are always put into those terms. It is the ideological language of the balance sheet that these people think they understand. Their world view is reductionist and thus incapable of accommodating the complexities to which many of the posts already address themselves.

The construct of a more egalitarian society, or, if you prefer, “a more equitable distribution of the socio-economic product” has long been the raison d’etre of the socialist mindset. However, the sustainability (I like that term, even though it’s intellectually irrelevant and as phony as a three dollar bill.) of that (re)distribution of wealth is suspect. If, through some miraculous change in socioeconomic structure, the present wealth of western civilization were redistributed equitably among the citizenry, I would bet it would take, at most, two generations before the pre-redistribution conditions reestablished themselves. The change necessary to move society closer to egalitarianism must occur at a level far removed from the distractions of left or right partisanship, or debates on economic structures. IMHO we must ask questions about why society and the individual thinks the way it does… Until that time happens the dynamic tension between rich and poor will carry on much the same as it has.

One of the most offensive things about Campbell is he never has enough money to fund welfare and disability payments at a decent level, to pay health care workers what they deserve, to fund our legal aid or women's shelters above the bare bones level ( you know the rest of the list) but he's proud to announce that he will pay students $17 an hour for picking up garbage and giving info in parks! I'd have no problem with that if he hadn't made such deep, cruel cuts to others like the mean-spirited docking of $40 from Lewis Swift's food allowance. Then there's always the Olympics - he'd blow a tunnel through hell for it but he's paving that tunnel with the lives and last pennies of the poor and the homeless.

He's the guy with the salesman soul who comes home and insists that there is no money left for proper food or clothing for the children. He can't afford their school books any longer. Granny must be thrown out because she's just getting too expensive to keep and the rest of the family will have to move into one room because a couple of americans are leasing the rest of the house. Length of the lease: almost a thousand years. (But, hey, I'm not selling the house.) And by the way... the construction noise in the backyard, well, there's always enough money for another golf course.

to lewis swift: I have a dear friend who is signifcantly disabled, and I very strongly sympathise with, and understand, the many hardships you have been forced to endure under this heartless provincial government. The kind of prejudice, intolerance, and outright irrational hatred of the disabled and unfortunate displayed by "final solution" is far too common for my tastes, and it disgusts me. We should not tolerate the government's discrimination against the unfortunate. The only thing that people like "fs" might be able to understand, is the fact that they could suffer illness or accident one day themselves, and could find themselves in the same situation, and then what would they think of their own callous and cold-blooded remarks? You can tell a lot about a society from how they treat their sick, disabled, and down-on-their-luck, and if that's the yardstick we measure by, BC has been found rather lacking indeed. Best wishes to you, LS.

I'll second that thought from ak. I know a gal who never had a kind thing to say about anyone on welfare. She left her husband and now collects the dole herself. The odd part is that she feels she is being attacked by the system because the system requires that the payments from welfare are reduced dollar for dollar against what her ex-husband is required to pay for child maintenence. Go figure but keep in mind that she actively assists her ex-husband in cheating the government in other ways as well as hiding the child payments from the authorities. He is too cheap to pay his taxes for the last ten years so he is claiming bankruptcy instead. The cats out of the bag for that couple and I suspect fraud charges against them will soon appear if any one of his creditors are clever enough to add up his balance sheets.

KWD. You and I aren't related by marriage, are we? :-)

I ask that in all seriousness, because if true, you know who I am here :-), and you carry the same ideological/political point of view he does: well meaning and progressive, but convinced of the "futility of action", for all your same reasons. Especially, " IMHO we must ask questions about why society and the individual thinks the way it does… Until that time happens the dynamic tension between rich and poor will carry on much the same as it has."

Which we argue all the time, of course. (Though you may actually turn out to be right at the end of time.) My only counter argument being, it is a do nothing argument for fiddling while Rome burns. Which is against my essential nature. :-)

I'm damned sure. Even your choice of words are the same? Too funny, brother.

I agree with Billy Pilgrim. I think income assistance should be taken away from the provinces and should be administered nationally. I came across a study recently that found almost a third (don't quote me on the number??) of homeless youths on Vancouver's streets were young francophones from Quebec. Hello? Vancouver is not called Terminal City for nothing. It's the city of last chance, and no snow in the winter makes it more practical. It's a trick diversion to say that BC taxpayers have to support the poor from out of province and "how unfair is that" (Harcourt said that when he cut welfare in the nineties and he paid for bus tickets to send them back to Alberta). We should cut out the "empire-building" of provincial premiers with too much ego, and take care of the country's poor without looking at borders.

But to push it to the finer point KWD, you are no more certainly right than am I. Meanwhile, I will use the old religionist argument for believing in heaven, only applied to the here and now material world: If it turns out that I am correct, and that human action to change society "could have" changed the prospects for life on this planet, and a more equitable social arrangement-, eternal navel gazing into the "unanswerable questions", in and of itself, certainly never changed anything, nor will it. On the other hand, if we accept that you are correct, and we then but fiddle while Rome, the planet burns, as I suggest you in fact propose, you will have won only a hollow victory to a vaccuous argument, at best, and we will wonder into oblivion if there was not something we could have done besides pick lint from our navels. Whereas, at least, by my preferred course, though it now may seem wan and thin on possibility, we will have tried.

And who said, it is not so much about getting to the end anyway, but the journey itself?

(Religionist say about heaven, that better to die and be wrong about God and The Coming Kingdom, than to have lived in sin, and died to discover "The Believers" were right after all. :-) Mine, I concede, is something of the same thin argument, only as I say, applied to the "material world". Which, I think, makes it more relevent.

F.S. get a grip!!! are you mentally ill or bi-polar and a liberal??, good to read the other opinions tho nice to see more than most don't think like .f.s. wow! he's scary!! f.s get some help... health authorities are busy closing mental health beds for the summer most won't open til sept, think about that f.s you may need one of those beds ...sooner than you realize

Thanks to all the good people above...I note the vancouver sun today is trying to claim a 40% increase in bc's economy -BY LEAVING OUT THE SEASONALLY ADJUSTED RATE ie. by ignoring that enployment is ALWAYS greater in the summer, because of tourism, increased construction etc, everytime you hear a claim of good times just around the corner go to shreck's strategic thought.com and geberally, you'll find the good news is nothing but fraser porkstitute, new math cherry-picked statistics, and while shreck might be slightly biased, his bias pales to insignifigance beside that of the sun's as this canwest waste of trees desperately tries to convince voters that all the pain has gone towards something besides paying for the massive uncampaigned-upon taxcut gift to gordon liar's owners...we now have the most expensive cities to live in in the country, and average wages lower than Quebec where the cost of living is much lower...thanks to campbell's gutting of rent controls, in two years I and many other disabled and low income people will no longer be able to afford the run down residences we now live in as the gordon liar economic strategy -the race to the bottom- continues...I also find that last ipsos read poll interesting, the one that shows the bc liberals and the ndp tied for support...where was the poll taken, pentickton, or shaughnessy...? ISN'T IPSOS-READ THE SAME OUTFIT THAT EVERY TIME CAMPBELL ANNOUNCED ANOTHER VISCIOUS CUT IN THE YEAR AFTER BLACK THURSDAY, when campbell ripped up contracts -the basis of civil society- DIDN'T IPSOS READ IN THIS DREADFULL YEAR CONTINUALLY RELEASE POLL AFTER POLL (taken god-knows-where) showing campbell's support SUPPOSEDLY remaining at a steady level...in my opinion, ipsos read polls are about as much to be trusted as the word of our pathetic, psychopathic excuse for a premier, remember the poll distortion in the recent federal election which showed harper poised to form a majority government...were these ipsos read polls as well...?

The most likely explanation for the very odd behaviour of our political leaders and their masters really simpler than that? Money is a fetish item, like leather or rubber or pain. It's a substitute for real human expressions of sexuality or spirituality or love or something. While most humans are designed to be powerfully attracted to each other for the good of the species, in some people the attraction is misguided into some other thing. Vinyl becomes a substitute for love of a spouse, green jello replaces love of ones children, who are never born because green jello can't ever bear children.

Many people feel like that about money. Instead of caring for the elderly, they open offshore numbered bank accounts and vow to keep the number forever secret. Instead of feeding the hungry and sheltering the homeless they find ways to avoid their civic duty to pay fair taxes. Instead of providing medical care for the sick or damaged, they buy heavy armored military vehicles and drive them around the city. Hummers they call them, a word once used to name a human act of love. No love of humans remains, however.

These sad individuals fail utterly in areas of human response which have functioned for millenia to protect our species, so they insist that this failure is really success. See how successful I am, they say, in my nice fat Hummer. Screw the rest of you, I've got my nice money, yess, my nice precious money, US dollars, In Barbadossss....

I rest my case.

Does anybody know if it's possible to get an imagination transplant? We should all chip in for one for this poor fellow. It can be our contribution to socialised medicine for this week.

another deadbeat no doubt

I meant for Lewis.

left wondering , and final solution are we all so economically safe and secure? Like most I know people who were once very productive well off members of our society one sneezed the wrong way time whatever and put his back out (1978) never to work again with no compensation haven't seen him for awhile but last I heard he was pretty bad off. The second was in a car accident and can no longer work, he is pretty much screwed for life with no compensation and the third was hurt in the bush can't work no compensation and most likely kicked off welfare now so what will he do in gordos new era? When you think about it we are all just one bad moment away from a life of pain and poverty, victims of a holes like gordo and his new era of lies and deceit. He is not excluded, had he run over a kid on a his little dui adventure in Hawii life would have been over for him! He is a alchoholic this disease is permanent it does not go away it will bite him on the ass and hopefull he will not kill any innocents when he crashes and burns, he would not be the first! Isn't it wonderful how the cowards can hide behind their anonymity on this board while they attack someone who is in survival mode? I despise cowards! gordon campbell is in my opinion a coward making cowardly attacks on those who can not fight back!

Since when is someone confined to a wheel chair a deadbeat? What a cowardly thing to say!

Where'd you get your imagination from, penfield, the paintings of goya? I am at least several million foot-pounds ahead of you in useful, dirty and dangerous work, where does your imagination come from, the fraser institute? Imagine this: your kids asking why you sold them out for a $200 taxcut....

hey cowards why don't you go down to your local employment center and find a job paying more then 12 dollars an hour, while you are at it drop by your local chamber supported temporary employment company and see how much they are paying. Drop by your local construction sites and count the green hard hats, these people get 8 dollars an hour and companies labour ready gets 8 dollars an hour.The magic 16 dollars an hour bruce was bragging about!

Coyote… philosophical muses - ancient and contemporary - might take exception to your notion that their arguments are vacuous, they did nothing and that they fiddled while Rome burned. Contrary to what we’ve been told, the last great frontier facing humanity isn’t outer space, it’s the space between our ears :-)

"Contrary to what we’ve been told, the last great frontier facing humanity isn’t outer space, it’s the space between our ears :-) " writes my friend , from o'er the pond. Two tokes and three whiskeys later, my friend, I've decided I'm "somewhat wrong" on this issue of "the importance of understanding, why we think and hold the attitudes we do," especially regards the social pecking order, and why there is the general submission to it that we exhibit. And at that point, I'm still thunking. I'll get back to you.

On the quote above, I think you are certainly wrong. The last great frontier is, after we've "discovered" what exists between our ears, is actually doing something about it.

I think it was Karl Marx who said, just to date myself, philosophy has been exhausted, and the problem is not so much to further analyze the world, but to change it. Or words to that effect. And on that, old Karl is still essentially correct, in my view.

In the ranking of the importance between (a) "the philospophical muses" and (b) human experience, the font of empirical evidence, I will choose the latter. It is "experience", in the form of real, practical everyday activity which leads our thinking, and the conclusions we draw, not the other way 'round, in the form of philosophy.

I'm an athiest, but... Christ said it to the man in his crypt, when he arose him from the dead, "Take up thy bed and walk." If you're dead, or the world around you is a shit pile, get up off your ass and do somethine about it-, with my added caveat, if it's possible. Laying there, smoking on the opium of philosophy and the search for "meaning", ain't gonna do you one fucking bit of good.

On the other hand, if that ain't "possible", what does it matter? Philosophy is as good as doing nothing. :-) Most of the time.

Good point, vick. At one time every major urban cener in canada, and some smaller cities had a canada manpower temporary labor center, where workers could get jobs paying up to $16 an hor and more, I know because I worked at one for years. Then Chretien closed them all down to save something like 400,000 a year, pocket lint for the federal government. Ever since temporary work agencies paying little more that $8 an hour, no matter how brutal the work, have proliferated....The proliferation of these in the lower mainland have been staggering especially as regards the vancouver construction industry....you know another thing about the canada manpower day labor centers...they often used to lead to steady jobs....talk about shortsightedness...I know you're not one of them, vick, but if you know any boys in prince george that do day labour, tell 'em to get their best workers, find a corner they can meet on every morning and pass the word to contractors...if you think it's a good idea, that is....I've seen this work in calgary and edmonton.....

Lewis; instead of constantly whining about how little you have maybe you ought to get off welfare and get a job. It's people like you who ruin it for the genuinely disabled costing government millions of dollars annually in fraudulent welfare claims. Even if you were moderately disabled you could still secure productive employment if you really wanted to. (assuming that you are as experienced at cleaning toilet bowls as you say you are)

Since you're talking about the old Canada Manpower which became EIC (which ran the Canada Employment Centres), and in turn became HRDC, and since LEft Wondering asks why someone, in this case Lewis, doesn't just "secrure employment", I have to say something.

A competitive labour market does not make it easy on the disabled, or the partially disabled, or the mentally ill (especially), or native people, or people whose second language is English, or young people will little experience, or single mothers, or mothers at all, or, socially disadvantaged people, or well, you get my point. There used to be a wage subsidy, based on a percentage of the total paid by the employer (to a maximum that was never ever ever reached), that diguised itself as a "training" subsidy. All of this was couched in terms of assistance to the employer who would provide on-the-job training and experience, and whose obligation, if that person worked out in the position, was to hire that individual on a permanent basis.

On paper, it should have worked. The thing that no one could control for was the COMPETITIVE (aka rampant capitalistism) nature of the market economy and what it meant to many would-be workers. What always happened was that for hte most part, ONLY small and fledgling employers would make use of this programs. More often than not, the poor bastard who was on the training program got treated like a slave in the cotton fields and had NO WAY to stand up for him/herself for obvious reasons. Also, and this was predictable as well--the same poor bastard who might have actually been excited and happy to have this chance to grasp the brass ring of "normalcy" would get his little ass kicked out the minute that the subsidy ended always--because this was what the structure of the program required--with some kind of "he just didn't work out--he was THIS or he was THAT--aka he was a loser in more ways than one, etc etc.

This was really good for hte self-esteem of someone who didn't have much of it in the first place. And the whole thing stunk, from start to finish. Talk about loose-loose!

But the moral of the story isn't that gov't programs don't work, or that unchecked competition beats down the hearts and souls of many people among us, or even that some of the comments made by some people above are ignorant--like the Marie Antoinette bit written by Left Wondering above. Rather, it's that

Thank you Andrew. To all. Let’s be clear about something. The Liberal mantra is "caseload reductions" (a friend of mine says that 6000 such "reductions" have been "targeted" for 2004). The Liberals reinforce their agendas by hinging ministers’ generous bonuses on successfully reaching "targets". The very notion of "public service" has shifted from accommodating the needs of the people of the province (i.e., supporting people in genuine need) to "service" to the political master. This means that the whole concept of public "service" and "servant" has shifted from people to politicians. If this isn’t a recipe for totalitarianism, then I don’t know what is. No matter where we come down on the issue of welfare and "welfare reform" (e.g., is welfare a "right" or a "privilege"?) we are still paying taxes for government services, and don’t we have a right to a minimum standard of respect and dignity when we have to depend on those services? An HRDC report in 2003 said that BC’s economy trailed ahead of one province---Newfoundland. Do those who are destitute need to experience the added burden of contempt from the welfare system, when the reason they are at the door of a welfare office may be because of such a poorly performing economy?

I can't help wondering about you. Why do you judge people you don't know so harshly? Do you really think you know what other people's abilities are? You use their passions and their circumstances against them as though they were weapons, and your skill at making pain out of misfortune speaks of a cruelty which must have been taught to you. Who hurt you so much that you must share so much disdain and contempt? Your need is clearly as great as anyone bound to a chair, only harder for others to see and mock. You have my sympathy.

I would like to ask everyone to ignore left wondering and final solution, unless they have something constructive or an intelligent argument to put forward. They are obviously posting their comments for reactionary purposes. For people who enjoy these forum's and value the opinions of others it makes it that much harder to sift through the crap.

by the way as long as we're talking about crap, I see Carole James has finally opened her mouth.

The crap referred to is the tendency to take your argument to a personal level. Your argument isn't crap, your insults are. If you want to join the discussion seriously, please stop calling people names because they disagree with you, or differ from you in ability or circumstance. You know nothing of those, and have no right to judge. It's mean, it's wrong, and most people learn it before they're 12.

Who cares this whole site is crap anyway and I don't talk to animals so there is nothing to discuss. Do you know Lewis Swift?

Unfortunately, site manager - - Tails are wagging the site and posing as humans.

Apologies for the length. It simply took that much space to deal with KWD about, why we think the way we do about class, the poor etc. Nonetheless, I hope it is relevent enough for the non-brownshirt trolls here.

-----------------------------

From the moment we are thrust into the world from the womb, we bring with us the complexities of our genetic history, chemistry and random chance, and entirely likely, I think, historical memories/ experiences manifest as the instincts of our species. Arriving upon the face of the planet in that package, we begin upon the moment of our arrival to be sensorially acted upon by the world, people and the events around us, which “much” begin to shape our thinking, alongside and in conjunction with, quite likely, preset dispositions unique to our individual and species makeup. But leading us, once we leave the womb, though there is clearly also an interaction back and forth between thinking and experience, clearly the experience of our lives leads the way, and as someone said, old Karl quite likely, drags our thinking, kicking and screaming along behind.

Certainly I do not think we are filled in any way like a cup by mysterious forces for good or evil, from on high or below, even while we know that there are greater and lesser degrees of “predisposition”, as a result of the genetic and other “objective” elements, to how we act for good or evil, tend to peaceful or violent behaviour, or even being a following or leading type of individual.

So we are all, some likely more than others, shaped by our experience in conjunction with more or less subtle predispositions-, given with a large quantity of self-survival, self-preservation and self-serving instincts . (Anyone who has raised children, even if they do not remember themselves, know exactly of what I speak here.)

That much as I’ve described above is clear in even watching the behaviour of chimpanzees, as much as humans-, the family of creatures from which we have apparently evolved, I think-, suggesting a very ancient continuity at work here, at the very least. For even in chimp society, and baboons as well I read somewhere recently, an individuals chances of survival and social status is much determined by which mother it is born to in the troop. (Though even amongst chimps, individuals outside the normal social hierarchical pattern do come out of unlikely backgrounds, rarely, but from time to time. If they are tough and smart enough.)

There are other behaviours, unique to chimpanzees and humans, and other critters to greater and lesser degrees as well, recently discovered, including predispositions for territorial aggression and war like social behaviour-, further suggesting, to me at least, along with other common animal behaviours we share, that we are likely still much primitive creatures, including in our social, cast, pecking order, socio-sexual and conflict resolution behaviours. We just do it on a grander scale. Even though we may also evidence, relative to other creatures, including chimps, relatively high degrees of technological sophistication, and degrees of complexity , or at least greater mass in the extent of our social organization.

So we are this mix of that from which we have evolved, and that to which we are evolving, shaped by experience over time. Even writing and other behaviours unique to our species, or more highly evolved with us, point to this ongoing capacity to be shaped by experience. (Mere thinking by itself does not lead, clearly, for thinking must first have an impetus, I think is clear, and that “impetus” is “living experience”.)

All that said, we do exhibit over long periods of time, from tribal, through slavery and the other social forms to here, also a rather startling capacity for “evolved thinking” and “social behaviour” based on response to technological advance, improved economic opportunity and historical/social experience. An example of which is, the degree to which, though much in practice still lags behind, the degrees of change in the “modernity” of “the home” having freed women from the time constraints spent there doing that drudgery, and opened up the possibility of their movement in greater numbers into the “outside” workforce. That, coupled with the development of the important “technologies” of reproduction control, has changed the way women see themselves in society, their hitherto “ancient” relationship with males, and the whole nature of their role in human societies. Those changes in practice have, and as we speak is, changing not only the “thinking” of women, but also men as well. It is changing much about the very nature of human society itself. (Clearly, it is still not entirely all sorted out yet.)

So clearly, when we are talking about even the “ancient” class pecking order in society, it is no more historically “fixed” than was/is that of the role of women. The same “experience and development” forces which have and are impacting on the lives and thinking of women in society, tell us, if we are paying attention, that there is also the “potential” of changing all the other ancient ways “we think the way we do”, about individual and social roles.

This is why it is not necessarily true that “the poor will ever be amongst us.” The only real question is, are we at that place in time yet, where experience demonstrates to people the possibilities of otherwise?

It is not enough to need or want , and that much I agree with KWD, we must also be led by “experience and material development”, to see another “real possibility”. Then we must act. Otherwise, I suggest, we submit to what has simply always been.

I "think" we are "NEAR" there in time. But I have been wrong before-, once, I think. :-)

Lewis, I believe you are above the comments posted by antagonistic pissants in the peanut gallery. Do not to let it become personal. I believe most posters here have a respect for your zealous, passionate posts and the watchful eye you use to inform BC. citizens about the chicanery and deceit shoveled out of the Provincial barn. Good on you. Keep it up. rcranium.

Thanks rcranium, effle, coyote and others. Today's victoria times colonist reports that because christy clark's ministry refuses to pay about $250 a month, a family of working poor people in delta, with both parents working, are now losing custody of their disabled nine year old son, and will now only be able to see him on weekends. Amazingly, the ministry of children and families is now paying another family OVER $3000 a month to care for this child -all to make up for a $250 shortfall which they refuse to fund (the bc liars have very strong ETHICS, when it comes to attacking disabled children and their families.) Christy Clark cowardly refused an interview with even the sycophantic, bc liberal boot-licking global tv, channel 8, vancouver. Still more amazing stan hagen, bc's current minister of attacking the poor, crows about an end to "welfare entitlement culture" in the same paper. But in the next provincial election bc voters who care about their children, AND other people's children as well, are going to put an end to fraser pimpstitute corporate entitlement culture, to attacking disabled children and inner city school kids to pay for a taxcut for the rich entitlement culture, as well the race to the bottom entitlement culture which has used gordon liar's massive uncampaigned taxcut for the rich to attack women, children, disabled children, the poor, the old, the sick and the dying. And, left wondering why you can't breathe very well when your head is half a mile up your ass, here is alist of jobs I've done to help build this province so that ignorant vancouver sun editorial page mouthbreathers like yourself could sell out your kids for a $200 taxcut: unloading boxcars, construction, tar and gravel roofing, warehouse work, landscaping and gardening, agricultural labor, restaurant work, industrial cleanup, restaurant management and cleaning, saleswork, and innumerable underpaid dirty dangerous jobs you would not have lasted on till coffee time at...maybe you could detail your contributions to building bc, except that they are no doubt, like yourself, insignificant and unimportant....how dare you try and judge the disabilities of others...look to yourself if you have the courage, which I very much doubt....and then look to your children and ask what opportunities they and other children have with no affordable education, rent controls off, and the worst performing bc economy EVER, no matter what cheerry-picked, fraser institute pimp newmath statistics, canwest newspapers vomit up to justify gordon liar's RAPE OF HUMAN DECENCY IN THIS PROVINCE.....did you CHEAT on your taxes last year, left wondering....?

this is a very informative site lots to read. including the opinions of the people, i miss that in the new era.. but i hope it dosent fall apart due to the ignorant remarks of a demented few....

man oh man. i really like it when people post the "right" opinion on this site. It really adds to the debate. Unfortunately, lately we've had nothing but binet and his multiple personalities. If I'm wrong forgive me jean, but cutting and pasting Lewis' comments seems to be your MO. I told myself that i wouldn't jump into the frey when they became like this, but this is getting rediculous. Suffice to say, keep it up Lewis, i believe that you have a lot of insight. Too bad this individual (be it binet or not) really has it in for you for a reason that I'm sure he/she is too cowardly to admit.

In general, for things to go well, all must cooperate somewhat. To wreck things takes only one who is willing to ruin the good with the bad.

This is the principle of the biggest asshole. If one is willing to take over the space used by others and fill it with intolerable foulness, then the others will soon enough retire from the exchange. This feels to the wrecker as though he has won something. Like a two year old howling in a restaurant until he gets his demand, he knows he has the power to force the parents, he thinks he's won, but really has lost the chance to enjoy the restaurant forever. And changed the opinions of everyone who witnesses his performance for as long as their memory lasts.

Lewis, ignore the twit. He defames you because he can't refute you. What you express as passionate conviction, he can only counter with childish name calling.

Hey Final Solution, et/al stick around for the second installment so that we'll get a better appreciation of how the fumbling facists react when confronted with real numbers. BTW, what will you and your many other personalities be calling yourself after May 05? New Socreds, Loopy Liberals? Certainly anything but government supporters, I would suggest. Guess it doesn't really matter right now as long as you can get a little joy out of attacking people who are incapable of working. Penticton must be proud to have citizens like you.

because as far as I can see Lewis still has not stated exactly what's wrong with him and why he needs to be on disability welfare. It seems obvious that he is capable of doing some work, and it sounds like he has been on the dole for years. Perhaps if he were to elaborate about his condition without the invective inclusions it would be of immense help. However, he should be careful about what he does say, because you never know if the Human Resource Police are monitoring this site. Not everyone would agree with his supporters, whoever they may really be but I'm sure we can all agree that welfare manipulation is a way of life for many, although perhaps not so in Mr. Swift's case.

"Unfortunately, lately we've had nothing but binet and his multiple personalities. If I'm wrong forgive me jean, but cutting and pasting Lewis' comments seems to be your MO." writes Michael.

I agree, it can be fun, even oddly informative, to observe the primitive mindset of these Brownshirts perform. (Brownshirts are the neanderthal goon squad for the fascist "right". The defenders of the status quo, the state, "the race" and "the faith", always besieged by outsiders, lefties, misfits and foreigners.) In the right, or wrong set of circumstances, depending on how you look at it, they CAN be extremely dangerous.

However, there is a rather predictable pattern to their MO, observable just about everywhere the "left" tries to gather and discuss. It's a "cookie cutter" MO that nearly all of them, with rare exception, seem to follow: jump in, hurl insults and charges, attack whom they perceive the most vulnerable and responsive to their accusations, like unfortunately, our friend Lewis with his hair-trigger emotions :-), (Sorry Lewis, you keep getting in the barrel of your own volition.), and they keep changing their moniker, to make it look like a major invasion in numbers.

As people figure them out and how to deal with them though, they jerk off their wad and leave flaccid. Though, like the serial killer mentalities they are, they periodically like to return to the scenes of their crimes and "re-live" the thrill.

Though for a brief while, when they're "hot" baby, they can have the fascination of a fireworks show to observe-, that quickly fades to black.

One encounters the same Brownshirt pattern everywhere in international blog land. Encountered often enough, they become like pesky mosquitoes, or tiny black flies.

To the troll with many names and little intelligence or imagination: Mr. Lewis Swift has already said he has advanced osteoarthritis. In any case, though, he, obviously, has been processed and certified as disabled. The nature of his disablity is irrelevant. If you're disabled, you're disabled - for whatever reason.

So you say, However, I don't know if he's been processed or not and I didn't catch were he said he had osteo at all. Moreover, I know plenty of people who are disabled that don't rely on welfare disability, Rick Hansen comes to mind. My sister-in-law has advanced osteo and she's not on disability and still goes to work and it seems that Mr. Swift is able to sit in front of a computer for extended periods of time at all hours of the night and day writing material for the Tyee.

Hi Everyone- Here are some helpful reminders about what is and isn't allowed as comment material on this site: You may not use this forum to post any material which is vulgar, defamatory, inaccurate, harassing, hateful, threatening, invading of others privacy, sexually oriented, or violates any laws. Remember that even if you feel stongly about an issue, or have personal experience to share, your choice of words is very important. Even though you think you are making a pithy retort, to the general reader it may in fact look like a personal insult with no substance. We will do our best to remove these kinds of comments. Let's raise the bar of discussion everyone. Thank you.

"whoever they may really be but I'm sure we can all agree that welfare manipulation is a way of life for many..." writes the troll-lite.

No, we cannot agree that "welfare manipulation is a way of life for many." That is a troll perception NOT backed up by the "objective" facts or significant numbers of convicitions for "welfare" fraud. In fact, the statistics provide the contrary fact of "few" actual convictions for welfare fraud, though a big case is always made of it in the media on the rare occassion it is brought to light, and it's a miracle there isn't more, given what pittances the physically and otherwise disabled or disadvantaged are expected to live on. (On the other hand, I can immediately think of a half dozen "working poor", personally known to me, who should, if they had the typical "business mindset", but won't apply for welfare assistance to help themselves out, out of a misplaced sense of pride. And their numbers, I would venture, equal or exceed any cases of fraud which "may" exist.)

On the other hand, what you trolls and "acting" as troll-lites always ignore is, the fact that the most elaborate, least questioned and lucrative "welfare handout" scheme in the country exists for the benefit of corporations, the wealthy and broadly defined "business": in the many faceted forms of municipal land, services and other cost and tax breaks, sundry and elaborate equipment and facility "write-offs" on taxes, gratis "forgiveable" loans, marketing, research and developments grants and assistance of many kinds, tax cuts and various kinds of exemptions from laws, bylaws and charges otherwise paid by everyone else.

While I don't immediately have the precise info on how you would get it, it is certainly easy enough to do so, (And the "research" will do you good. It will actually help you to "know" what you are talking about, instead of just shooting from the lip.); there is a book available from the Federal government, possibly even provincial as well, listing and detailing all the "assistance" programmes available to "business" and "entrepreneurs". And if, again, you are a "business", most municipalities have "incentive" programmes involving various kinds of breaks and service provisions to attract you to their town, in the new neocon "competitive" economic "business friendly" environment.

So stop this b.s. about the poor, disabled and welfare fraud. It's simply part of the "scam" to divert attention away from the real "corporate" pigs feeding at the public trough. When I see you folks addressing this aspect of "the system" nearly as vigourously as you attack the most vulnerable amongst us, maybe we will have something to talk about. Until then, you are just another part of the problems yourselves: ignorance.

Perfectly put Coyote. All too often do i have arguements with indivduals who get so angry about welfare because they are so sure that the majority of welfare recipients are "bums" - a term they often use. And their evidence is that they read about it all the time - in the sun or province. It always amazes me when you point out to them (and I like the term troll Coyote) that the sun and province run in a corporate environment that controls information read by the masses on a daily basis. And when you further elaborate to the trolls that the sun and province don't discuss corporate welfare fraud and concentrate solely on that very small percentage of individuals that do commit welfare fraud; only then does the name calling start because rarely do they anything else to add to the conversation. I'm interested in the percentage of welfare recipients that are committing fraud. I usually tell the brownshirts (another term i like) that i would bet that it's well under 1%.

In between all the personal stuff, this is a damn good discussion. It's important to have a site to discuss this, and I think Lewis Swift has some powerful things to say when he sticks to saying them. Lewis, if you have experience on the net, by now you will know that there are people, often young or very young, who troll about pushing buttons and giggling. And some of those aren't so young, but still simple-minded. Why, why, why do you waste your precious energy on even noticing them. Let it roll off your back COMPLETELY, and then use your enviable energy to fight the good fight. I just don't get why you even rise to the bait these simpletons offer. They have no interest in the debate, no concern with anything other than trying to hurt vulnerable individuals. It was said better than this by several people above, but you still insist on dealing with the ad hominem attacks as though they mattered. It's at that point that I just shake my head and worry you're going to get a heartattack to add to all the rest of the probs. Please, for all of us who enjoy discourse here, be the bigger man and TOTALLY ignore all arguments that aren't intelligent. Just ignore them. Please. The administrator will take care of the brownshirt posts. Probably he/she just doesn't get to them so fast because he/she isn't online at the Tyee quite as much as you (grin).

Very interesting discussion! How about some solutions, folks? By all means, vote out the Liberals, but is voting out Gordo gonna solve the problem of poverty? Certainly voting out that desperate workaholic, alcoholic, hard-business mentality, locally and globally. Big Pictures: The psychology of power: often unloved kids, if they can, go for power over others— they will work tirelessly for a position of power. With that power, they try to ensure that the abused and neglected are out there, outside themselves. But abuse and neglect there must be. Read Alice Miller on this. The history of scarcity: R. Buckminster Fuller clarified this: before the twentieth century there wasn’t enough real wealth to decently support everybody, therefore fierce competition for the basics. In 1955, the Scientific American published a consensus of scientists from East and West: now everyone on the planet could be not only adequately taken care of, but indeed sumptuously!—with much less work than ever before! Bucky said that no one competes for what is abundant— such as air— but watch people trample each other to death in competition in a burning theatre. We are in a burning theatre, or at least a smoking one. Many being trampled. Widespread poverty is essential for capitalist enterprise to keep wages low (China Trades Its Way To Power—this morning’s New York Times). The Bank of Canada declared a while back that we need around 8% unemployment to keep inflation down. Therefore, anyone who is “unemployed” can take pride in their contribution to the economy. Gordo et al represent a new global spirit, the unloved in aggressive denial of plenty. In fact, as shown in the U.S., they would rather spend the plenty of imprisoning people than on feeding and sheltering them minimally at far less expense. The work ethic as we have known it is old propaganda from their ancestors, the brutal factory owners of the Industrial Revolution and their supporters, the psychopathic originators of the Protestant religions. The job system is dizzy, weak, palpitating— and full of misery. The days of Protestantism (“God loves my suffering”) ought to be numbered by you and me. Clean efficient technology and fabulously reduced work-time can feed, clothe, shelter everyone on this planet without slavery, serfdom, or wage-slavery. As soon as we say so. It appears as if over half of the Nobelists in economics have agreed with the idea of Guaranteed Basic Income. Much of the pain of welfare is not just poverty, but stigma. A Guaranteed Liveable Income for all eliminates stigma so that instead of distributing so much gratuitous shame, we could stand tall as a race. The laborers and inventors of history have created a cornucopia. We should be a gorilla on the path, step up to the tiny elite, and say “I’ll have that.” Take our bone back. No need to behead the Fortune 500 CEOs— feed and shelter them too, and once we all eat, have shelter and sanitary infrastructure, let ‘em go compete to get rich again. But not at the cost of our hunger, homelessness or indeed freedom. Not, when we say so, ever again. Two quotes: The real "haves" are they who can acquire freedom, self-confidence, and even riches without depriving others of them. They acquire all of these by developing and applying their potentialities. On the other hand, the real "have nots" are they who cannot have aught except by depriving others of it. They can feel free only by diminishing the freedom of others, self-confident by spreading fear and dependence among others, and rich by making others poor. --Eric Hoffer "All knowledge, all discoveries belong to everybody. ... All knowledge all discoveries belong to you by right. It is time to demand what belongs to you." - William S. Burroughs, The Job

solutions...i wish the government would start funding schools and hospitals and pharmacare so seniors don't have to live the dirty 30"s all over again.. where would they get the funding you say? god knows if they haven't gotten enough out of us already..? they could fund from the huge profits of oil and gas reserves that leave this province, it's never been bigger or better according to our m.l.a. so put the profits back and invest in the people and communties of the whole province not just the big black hole on the south coast.

Two friends of mine, were forced off welfare, both single mothers with children. One of them, left the kids with her father, until he died last december. She was in such deep depression and pressure, she went back to welfare and they told her to get back to work. We got a bunch of people together and went to the Surrey office and the social wiorker gave her a check. The other women, left her children with neighbours and went to work as a traineee for white spot. The deal is welfare pay her , welfare rates and she gets trained by white spot for a year, after a year she is contracted by white spot. Well when the 11 month and 29 days came around, she was laid off and white spot found a new "welfare paid" trainee. I call this scheme corporate welfare. There are no conservatives against it, because conservatives like to bring the community self steem to the ground and build the big ego of capitalists crooks, like Ken lay, Martha and Worldcom creep. So while our communities suffer, conservatives have no problem in giving taxpayers money to be sent to off shore tax heavens and other outside of Canada, hiding money places. I came to the conclusion that conservatives are a bunch of people that desire to be americans and are too lazy to walk accross the border. The conservative party should be destroyed because of treason. PC is anti canadian and anti community.

Lots of impressive analyses and thoughts on the subject of poverty here! Those that hoard, while denying or begrudging others basic needs, should peruse the definition of "psychopath" while looking in a mirror. Social Darwinism should be made to work in reverse -- those that have too much should be forced to hold a potlatch and divest themselves of their loot with those who have nothing. Or else, would they please step off the planet? Not only should the governments (that would be us) be fully funding schools, hospitals, medicare, denticare, etc., but governments (that still be us)should be offering FREE post secondary education. This is not a brainer. Lack of education and opportunities is one of the great causes behind entrenched poverty (right behind mental/physical/addiction/health issues). The way it is now, only the well-off get to go to university for any length of time -- i.e., to be a doctor, nurse, physiotherapist, engineer, etc. But if university were free (and all post-secondary education, including the much-maligned and under-funded trades), and room and board tax-deductible (as are business lunches now), then we would not have a shortage of doctors, nurses or medical specialists in Canada. There would be no waiting lists. More people of modest means would become doctors. Because they won't have millionaires' pampered expectations, they would NOT demand INSANE wages. Also, because working class doctors will have seen real work sometime in their lives, they wouldn't be so quick to send injured workers back to work without a period of decent rest and a regime of Physiotherapy. They'd fill out the forms for WCB properly. The ridiculously well-off never fail to appall me with their underestimation of the ardousness of the labour of others --especially those useless twits who think that hospital and long term care workers should only get $9.25 an hour.

there will always be disadvantaged people in our society, some intellectually challenged,some disabled and some lazy.Although I believe our government is a shitty custodian I cannot go there because to do so would compete with lewis swift's prose and I'm afraid I couldn"t put it more aptly...thank you lewis. HOWEVER ( from the top of my voice) We are all our brother's keepers and I think we too as individuals we are all doing far too little to help on a personal level. I can't come up with the stats but I have read that in terms of giving $ to charity we don't do all that great .As a nurse I see volunteers every day....why are they always elderly? Churches used to be a great help but their attendance is dropping like a rock and the large familly unit is also fractured beyond recogition.As a society we seem to want to be able to depend on someone else to shoulder our responsibilities eg. child care taken care of by the state, state supplied job prospects etc. Obviously these institutions are there for a reason and do benefit us but have we become so bloody reliant on these relatively faceless entities that we as you and me brotherdont help out enough on a personal level? Any thinking person can see what this government's policies have done...as I said I am a nurse and I see it every day...every single bloody day.We need to find a way to spend more energy on helping and waste less on the pimps of power

Last week a young man who is a mental health consumer hung himself in Victoria, He had been given notice to move from his affordable room. 2 weeks ago a man in Victoria who has been homeless for awhile died. When the disability assessments went out we had several suicides. Does anyone give a shit about these human beings dying before their time? I am one of the disabled, I have a number of disAbilities, and going to work would be one of my dreams. Any one who is stupid enough to think we live in the lap of luxury is out of their mind. We are not here by choice but by accident or disease or disAbility. Life is hard enough without someone thinking that we like it here, we enjoy having no food for the last week of the month and we love living on $786.42 a month. to anyone with a brain , we do know how to work at macdonalds, we do know howw to wash dishes , we do know how to do janitorial work, We can't or we would be out there away from this disgusting and punitive system Carol Romanow advocate~acpd

No doubt, there are many who are genuinely in need of assistance and living on $786 a month seems impossible to me. It's too bad there are so many others who use every "bad back" excuse imaginable and end up sucking the system dry. I personally know people who have been on social assistance for years that should never have qualified, and have never attempted to get off who think society owes them. It's also difficult for me to approve of handing out money directly to liquor stores on welfare Wednesday. If there was some way to weed out these system abusers there would be ample resources left over to take care of the truly needy, and the poor, and I think that's what government set out to do, and Kudo's to that.

I know of many single moms who work two and three jobs, they work 7 days a week they are part of the working poor as are many families out there, most are working on Sunday mornings church isn't an option anymore

And then there is John. So concerned about how the welfare croiwd spends THEIR money. He also expressed concern that some may not have bad backs even though you need a medical certificate as proof to get the assistance. Welfare cases pay taxes too and once it's their money how can anyone but them decide how to spend it? Of cpourse, if you insist on denying the poor the rights that the rest of us take for granted then I suggest that guys like John leave BC and go to Cuba or North Korea where people telling other people how to live is a way of life. Actually, it is John who thinks that people on welfare "owe" him something.

I too, have known my share of welfare cheats..one famlly I know milked it for everything it was worth plus leeching off every foodbank going.John, keep telling yourself that there will always be cheats and we have to put up with them so as not to condemn the rest.Also and more importantly remind yourself that the lifestyle provided is minimal and demoralizing.Thhe cheats are gaining nothing of any worth. Welfare rates need to reflect today's reality but should also be coupled with sincere academis and job training programs.I once was on welfare and asked for help to take a refresher course to get back into nursing.The help I asked for was to remain on assistancer for three monthsto feed my familly and I would apply for a student loan for tuitiomn fees and materials.I was turned down even though I had a guaranteed good paying job to go to.My solution was to stay on assistance, get the student loan and pray like hell that I didn't get caught.I didn't I got the job and got off welfare immediately never to return.How many others are there like me who need a hand up for a very short term?I have never felt good about cheating the system but for the three thousand dollars my familly got I am now in a position to be able to help others instead of being a net debit.This government in its myopic hard heartedness has cut back on the staff needed to really help people...they figure the only staff required are those that give out cheques. Know this for a fact.... some of the most frustrated workers in B.C. are social workers and nurses One last thought....many times it has been said that a country should be judged by how it treats its prisoners....our prisoners are treated better than or welfare recipients! We should hang our heads in shame at the pathetic disability rates too...I'll bet evry post here can think of examples of gross government waste that could well look after these people instead of leaving them in the position they are in now.

Before I thank the writer/researcher for his marvelous job I would like to point out to several people who have made comments following this article that human rights matter! Under the Canadian Constitution, citizens...which include ALL citizens, even the poorest of the poor...have a Guarantee of Rights and Freedoms. Under Legal Rights, Section 7 The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms states, "Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of persons and the right not to be deprived thereof...". Under Equality Rights, Section 15 (1), "Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination...". In BC Campbell and his merry henchmen have made access to the law by the poor an impossibility. How? By legislation without consultation. By changing existing laws without anyone of us knowing what they are doing. In their diligence, to do nothing more then balance their precious mind-screwing budget, they have attacked the poor and swayed the more feeble minded bigots through word tricks and propoganda into misguidedly believing that the poor are somehow leeches on the system, the cause of all our financial woes, and should be punished. Well folks what about the Big Corporates who are the real leeches on the system. Think about the taxpayers dollars that the JobWave folks are raking in off work that was once done honourably and confidentially by government staff who were under oath to protect the privacy and human dignity of welfare recipients. I live on the outskirts of a small town on Vancouver Island and know of two men who have Hepititas C...there is no cure for Hep C, they are dying because their livers are failing and they have no money for food, let alone quality food. Both of these men have been kicked off welfare for frivilous reasons. They should both be receiving Provincial disability, they should both be living out the last of their days with some modicum of dignity. They aren't. One man "lives" in a garage, the other in a friends trailer...he uses an outhouse and has no indoor running water. Neither has any income..nothing! They somehow survive through the charity of friends. Anyone who has the temerity to submit a comment on this site smugly and with criticism questioning another persons illness should remind themselves, "There by the grace of God go I". Human rights matter! The cuts to all services made by the BC Liberals have diminished the capacity of the human rights system, welfare system and other public services and are having a disciminatory impact on the already disadvantaged. All of us, including those who thoughtlessly poor bash, have more to fear from "our" government who are threatening the lives and quality of lives of their own citizens. On closing my comment, thank you Andrew McLeod for your fine effort!

Here we are in one of the richest and most totally beautiful places in the world and people are maundering on about "welfare fraud" and getting all fired up because some poor soul has found a way to get an extra ten bucks from a system which is known to perpetuate poverty and despair and do nothing at all to help someone get a hand up in the world. Have these neocon numb nuts taken the time to look at the huge subsidies given companies like Xerox? Yeah, Xerox! If ever a company did not need a few free mill it has to be Xerox, but the largesse flows their way...the five major banks annually declare profits of such magnitute my mind cannot begin to visualize such amounts..profits on which they pay little or no tax...I admit I'm very touchy on the subject...for twenty years I have required some really heavy-duty medication to combat the pain in my lower back... someone's snide comment about people faking bad backs so they can collect welfare is what sparked this temper tantrum......the pain never goes away...damage to the sciatic nerve has rendered my left leg quite undependable..I often get around only because of my "upstanding friend", my cane. I only know, personally, of one person who has abused the welfare system. She continues to abuse it (and everyone around her). I have had right-wing reactions to her perfidy and I am not proud of that impulse; yes, she sits on her ass, spends her checque on beer and smokes, deprives her kids of the necessities of life, etc., etc., but I kinda-sorta think she does this because she is mentally ill and thus, truly unemployable. To those know-everythings out there who say people with handicaps can get and hold down a decent paying job I suggest they pick a physical problem, and then show up at work walking, limping, crutching, wheelchairing as if their choice was real...and just to get a real in-depth understanding of the situation, ram a turkey skewer in your sciatic nerve every ten minutes...I am not employable. There are days, like today, when getting from my bed to the bathroom assumes the logistical challenges of an ascent of Mount Shasta. My boss is going to be SO happy when I show up white-faced, zonked on medication, bent almost in half, and with pain lines in my face which look as if they've been etched with acid...jesus, the job is going to last a long time!! I have not been forced to submit to welfare. And not because I am possessed of some towering moral fibre or some Scots Protestant ethic...I am lucky. If I never win Loto (or even the high school grad class' fund raising Bingo) I still enjoy the most incredible luck. Welfare might well be a raise in pay for me. I don't know. I haven't checked it out. I can survive on what I make as a full-time writer. I find it sad that so many of those who have more than their share of the worlds resources at their disposal are so fuckin' chintzy they begrudge someone what we know is a stipend which doesn't even approach that magical "poverty line"... you mothers must be filled with something other than pride... Lewis, my good friend whom I have never met...bad 'cess to them all...write your novel!! Start when you're about fifteen and full of hopes and dreams...tell us about the jobs you took...the luck good or bad...you obviously have a facility with words...you won't experience a sudden surge in income, but god, the satisfactions! My grand daughters are "bizzitin" with me right now. Joan is three and a half, Emily is two and a half. They are "status" first nations. Anyone who thinks this nation holds as much opportunity for them as it holds for a white middle-class male child of the same age is so moronic there is no use trying to discuss things with him. My virtue of gender and ethnicity their row will be uphill and stoney...but one of the biggest dreams I have for them is that they will not become so bitter and so downright nasty that they will ever type such wretched drivel as has been fed to this site by the neocons, particularly good old anonymous final solution...Yes, whoever you are who cast aspersions at those with bad backs, I DO have a bad back, I've even had surgery for it, but by god, my handicap is not as great as yours and though I am "crippled" I am not as bad off as you are, you poor thing. Deepest sympathy for your stunted condition in life. And this IS my real name!

Thanks anne, for another great post and your encouragement, I have already written 2 novels, non-autobiographical, and a political satire, so far all it's gotten me is an agent who acted enthusiastic then did nothing, and this was a reputable agent, not one of the crooks out there conning the unawary, it seems to be very difficult to get a fair hearing or reading, article writing may be easier to break into....your posts hearten us all anne....

No doubt there are many who are genuinely in need of assistance. I am only concerned with the ones who are not. Obviously a person with no arms and no legs will find it difficult to find employment and in some cases will require assistance. The fact is that even persons suffering through life without a brain can get well paying work. MacPhail and Kwan come to mind.

Oh yes indeed, even those who are a waste of space, like jean smith, should be able to get it, for that is the most terrible disability of all, it's OFTEN accompanied by delusions of grandeur, but we must be sure even these persons are eligible for assistance, no matter how odious, timorous, and duplicitious we may find them, ah...for a worthy opponent......

whatever

Another devastating rebuttal from "jean smith"....

May I take a point from from anne cameron's post above? Everybody thinks they know somebody who's scamming welfare because they can't see a wheelchair. So they must be 'employable', right? The evidence refutes that conclusion.

Life in poverty is miserable, utterly bereft of pride or joy or accomplishment or anything much to make it worth living except family, and the stress poverty puts on that is terrible. When you think somebody is choosing this as an alternative to a job or a life without shame, you need to look again. There are literally hundreds of thousands of more people looking for jobs than jobs to find, regardless of ministerial spin.

Try to remember what your average job interview is like. standing there being judged by somebody with four hundred resumes to choose from. If there is any sign of damage on you, you're shown out quicker than thought, and left with the impression that the nephew was a shoo-in all along. By damage I mean uncertainty, depression, inexperience, schizophrenia, fetal alcohol syndrome, abuse, even simple poverty will wreck your chance, let alone physical problems. If somebody once gets on to welfare, they're forbidden to ever try to get off. You have to get enough money all in one go to be free of need completely, or else they snatch your money away. The odds of that are slim to none.

Next time you are looking at somebody on assistance and thinking how this person shouldn't be here, just imagine yourself as an employer with a lot of resumes on your desk and ask yourself what job you would give him.

Then look in a mirror and judge yourself.

Thanks for a sensitive and thoughtful post, bailey. I might add that every capitalist economy depends on a pool of unemployed, under employed, and low wage workers. When unemployment rates fall too low in canada and the states institutions like the bank of canada often respond by raising interest rates and driving down employment forcing more people on to welfare. This information ius generally unavailable in canwest/global media and american "mainstream' media...

I am a "early" retired MHR employee in Nanaimo. I just could not bear what is going on in the Ministry. I and most MHR employees know of several people who have died from causes that can be directly related to the Ministry's policies. It is my opinion that each Liberal MLA and Cabinet Minister and their support staff who have hung around, are 100% culpable for the deaths and the terrible suffering of so many of the Ministry's clients. I have certainly let my own MLA, Mike Hunter, know my views. These people fit the description of the "courtiers" described in John Ralson Saul's book, "Voltairs Bastards". They all make these tragedies possible. I should add, I was very lucky to have reached the magic age of 60 to take this early retirement. Most of MHR's staff would leave in a heartbeat if they could.

Please retain this information stephanie, the pivot legal society and other groups may be able to launch lawsuits, after may 17, 2005.

I personally wonder why John Smith stood idly by watching people he knows....( friends maybe ) ripping off the system. Calls to social services can be anonamous John..or is there any evidence to your scamming claims. As far as someone visiting an extra food bank, well throw a party at the stale bread buffett. I am Erin I am raising a 2 year old alone I collected my first welfare check when my son was 1 year and one hour old. I could not bare to leave him with strangers as he screamed and cried like he was being killed each morning. I had one solution for my sons sake. I guess John you might consider this lazy...that I dont throw my son to the wolves of private daycare (the only ones I can afford). Yes John I would much rather eat soup 5 nights a week and know my son is not being molested or hurt than go make the 2,000-3,000 a month I was earning before. For me this is temperary I count on this to get me through. For many it is not temporary and for you I grieve and maybe one day can be in a position to help. I think with such intelligent postings on this site would anyone like to start a group or start petitions to governments?..anyhow lewis I feel for you I too have arthritis it hurts and if I could give my morning pain to final solution everyday I would gladly.;-)

I am very frustrated at the new rules to applying for welfare. I attend Malaspina and am not eligible for assistance. I get an allowance for attending school from my Native Band. This is only given the months I attend school. I was off for summer and had no other income except the child tax for my three eligible children. I did not have enough money for rent, food, utilities, clothes, shoes. It has been a huge pain to live on almost nothing. My children tried to spend week-ends with friends or relatives just to get a good meal once in a while. When school started I had no money to get school supplies or new clothes and shoes for school. My son is in his first year at middle school, he is required to pay a $40 locker fee, I suffer a lot of anger, anxiety and dispair. To top it off the government makes it seem like they are HELPING the PEOPLE. NO they are displacing people and starving people and killing off the poor. Who will those people at the ministry work for when all the welfare recipients are no longer there? People need guidance and encouragement they need to be able to aquire job skills and have the resources to get them gently off welfare. Not forced off to balance a budget or pay off debts.

I agree completely, the sad fact is that most women raising children without support are poor the statistics are over 53% of single mothers in canada are living in poverty. This static alone suggests that instead of supporting families our government punishes them. When I need something from my welfare worker and she will not return my calls I generally go down to the office and ask if it would be more convienient for my son and I to die to ease their caseload...sounds dramatic but generally they call me back or address my needs that way. When I wrote my M.L.A's office when my son was an infant and asked why welfare was so low that I had to decide out of the 2 of us who would be nourished and who would not, or why they make the daycare subsidy so low it does not cover addiquate care...or why there is such a shortage of adequate housing for low income people...they wrote back and told me there was no problem with these services, they were fine. I wrote something nasty back which didnt help but I was shocked that someone in office was completely in denial that our system doesnt work. To top it all off it was a middle aged woman. I suggest Virginia next summer if you have to pack your hungry children off to the closest M.L.A's office and when your children ask why theres no food and they are hungry you can have your elected official explain to them why your not eligible for support, why you dont qualify. These politicians need to see first hand what their policies and cut backs lead to. My thoughts are with you.Good luck.

After dave's funeral, I had known him only a while,his presence is in my memory still. He had finally moved into a senior's apt. in esquimalt, i helped with the move.He lived alone which is a choice he made for the six years i knew him, but a choice that for a mid aged man can be very isolatingMet his family in Duncan very early in our friendship. Dave persevered against great odds and was amazingly resilient and very passionate about change a must to the social net required for the many persons thrown away by society ,seemingly. He scrounged when he could any food ,needs,etc. Never seemed to lose his humour unlike so many. Seeems to me this is a common tale when no longer is one young or spritely or cute, the unspoken criteria for so many low paid entry level jobs. If only an assessment for employability was done for all persons on basis not just of physical and mental but social also. Many do not fit into thhe catergory of socialable but anti-social or traumatised beyond the usual. sad to say Dave tried many times training and employment but it never took a permanent hold like we are told it should and make every thing beautiful. life is like that accept it i say but those who have never been there refuse to believe it.