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Guess I'm a Leftist Now
Energy minister would rather cry conspiracy than address issues.
Minister Neufeld: Blame the cabal.
In this article, I'm going to use the "left/right" designations. I don't like them as they seem so outdated but since they are terms we nevertheless understand, I shall use them.
I am now, I'm told, a member of the "left" and a traitor to my former colleagues and my, ahem, "class." This because I have publicly stated that I will support the NDP next May 12 or earlier if the "autocrat" violates his own legislation and calls a snap election.
I will concede that my views have matured but my basic philosophy has not much changed. I was Consumer Affairs minister from December of 1975 to November of 1978. During that period, at first with Bill Neilson as my deputy and later with Tex Enemark, I set out to reform and expand consumer protection legislation that had been started by my NDP predecessor. We did so up against a hostile caucus but, the gods be praised, with a supportive Premier Bill Bennett.
We believed that the government had a place in the marketplace as a policeman, and we targeted the slime bags who discounted tax returns at horrendous profit, the crooks who sold things like chimney sweeping door to door. We went after the literal fly-by-nights who left elderly people stranded far from home, and we took on crooked car salesmen. We even licensed car dealers to the intense anger of six of my colleagues who were car dealers.
We helped people hammered by banks that wouldn't obey our laws. We forced the banks to do so. We cracked down on stock-market fraud. And just to show we were pro good business, worked with local orchardists in the Okanagan to start what is now a fabulous wine industry. We also brought in massive changes in the liquor portfolio, which, amongst other things, got rid of the ghastly beer parlours to be replaced by hotel pubs.
In my one year as Environment minister the slaughter of wolves was stopped, uranium mining went under a moratorium and the city of Seattle was induced to give up its treaty right to raise the Ross Dam and flood the lovely Skagit River.
Neufeld's name-calling
I'm not just singing my praises (although admittedly it's always fun to do so, especially in print). I'm merely demonstrating there is consistency in my present position against fish farms and private power projects buggering up (to use the technical term) hundreds of our rivers and streams while emasculating B.C. Hydro.
This is what Energy Minister Richard Neufeld says about my ilk, on his web page: "The connection between the B.C. Citizens for Public Power and the Carole James' NDP and the B.C. Federation of Labour runs deep -- there is no difference between these groups," says Neufeld. "And now it is clear they all share the same reckless ambition to ban independent power producers, drive out investment and jobs, and keep British Columbia reliant on expensive, imported power."
Well, Dick, I'm proud to stand shoulder to shoulder with that group and others like the Western Canada Wilderness Committee, COPE 378 president Andy Ross, and environmental groups right around the province fighting the privatization of our power. (I strongly suggest that you look at saveourrivers.ca, the organization for which I am a spokesperson. There you will find out just what this issue is all about.)
Is Mr. Neufeld saying that only "the left" cares about our rivers and our environment? It seems so! Are caring, well researched arguments to be dismissed by this government because of their source, not their content? If this is the case, what a sad excuse for a government we have!
The left got a few things right
What I want to talk about is this notion by the government and so many of its supporters that if the "left" suggests anything it must be bad. Business, left alone, it's said, will take care of the interests of its workers and the public at large.
Really? Was it business that encouraged workers to unite for better pay and working conditions? Was it industry that scanned its workplace and brought in proper safety and health rules? Was it industry that saw the need for better pay?
One must, in fairness, note the shop-worn argument that in January of 1914 Henry Ford turned the auto industry upside down and brought workmen by the tens of thousands storming for jobs by announcing that Ford's minimum wage would be five dollars for an eight-hour day when a good wage was two dollars and a half for a day of 10 hours. He reasoned that decently paid workers would be able to buy his cars and he was right. Unhappily, however, Ford wasn't always that enlightened as later bloody strikebreaking would demonstrate.
Where did workers' compensation and unemployment insurance come from? Or pensions to help those whose low wages gave no scope for saving? Who brought in fair labour practices legislation? Who brought in public health care and who put pressure on, and when they could, legislation for, decent environmental laws and proper forest practices? Who brought in protection for farmland?
Stuck in a time warp
The Richard Neufelds of the world don't try to make counter arguments to proposals and studies by the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives. Instead, they simply dismiss them as "left wing" while accepting the words of the far right Fraser Institute as if they were heavenly endorsed.
Have we as a society not advanced past this sort of name-calling? Aren't we ready to look at ideas and judge them on their merits using common sense, not fear and prejudice? Statements like those of Richard Neufeld are stuck in a 30-year-old time warp.
Is it to be dismissed as "left wing" when people oppose giving our rivers, their power and the money they make over to interests of shareholders of private-sector companies? Are those of us who support the energy policy of W.A.C. Bennett lefties? Is it left wing to demonstrate that the government policy will mean, under NAFTA, that once Americans use our water for anything, they can use it for everything, such as exporting our water to the thirsty U.S.?
Let's get beyond the labels
Of course this cuts both ways. The NDP and people that support them at the ballot box or, perhaps, from time to time on policy, are often too ready to dismiss counter arguments not on merit but political cant. This, however, can be understood when you remember that the "left" is seldom in power and has seen their proposals only put in place by right-wing governments who are afraid of losing power.
I'm not against feistiness in politics. It's good to battle issues vigorously, and name-calling is part of a feisty debate on great issues. All I say is that people like Neufeld and other ideologues do no service to the public weal by rejecting ideas out of hand because they come from those you normally don't agree with.
Take on my colleagues and me in the fight against privatizing power on the merits of the argument. Deal with the issues we raise not by flatulent weasel words and phrases, but by reasoned and documented argument.
That might be a good idea, Mr. Neufeld, if only because this is what the public today is coming to expect if they don't expect it already.
Related Tyee stories:
- Private River Power Draws Diverse Foes
'Green' claims disputed. - Campbell's Power to Harm Rivers
500 BC streams risked for private profit. - Another Side to Private Power
First Nations, municipalities explore controversial energy source.
![[Tyee]](http://thetyee.cachefly.net/ui/img/ico_fishie.png){kind=small}
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- ...while on the streets, pirates and ninjas put aside mutual animosity to join student protests
128
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Skywalker
3 years ago
Right on Rafe.
Neufeld likely has no memory of the kind of policies WAC might support in the interests of BC even he railed at the socialist hordes at the gates.
Ronald Pagan
3 years ago
Question:
Run of the river sites may be environmentally damaging but I would like to ask...
Where is BC going to get its new power supply from?
Just curious.
Wilfred Laurier
3 years ago
The Future
Rafe, given that BC is going to see an increase of population long after you have departed, and that said population reaps huge benefits from power exports, I would like you to tell me exactly how you would increase power generation.
I am talking about a "hard source," not one that relies on the will of the wind. If harnessing moving water is not a good idea, according to you, then you have to, in my humble opinion, provide me with a viable alternative.
For example, do we build nuclear plants? Or do we buy from other providers that use coal to generate power?
Another example is conservation. If we were to cease our power exports to the USA, how would this affect our revenues, and how would that revenue be recovered? Say, for example, this cash were made up via a large corporate tax hike, what effect would this have on our unemployment rate? Finally, if the US were forced to make up the difference, how much CO2 would be generated to replace to lost hydro power?
These are questions that you will not have to deal with, Rafe. You are in your later years now. I am concerned about the affect the choices you advocate will have on my children.
Being a NIMBY or BANANA is really very easy when it isn't your responsibility to deal with the issues I have illustrated above.
Van Isle
3 years ago
This is addressed to Ronald
This is addressed to Ronald Pagen and Wilfred Laurier. Gentlemen, what you're advocating is old technology and old thinking. Wake up and get with the times folks. We can create energy without mega-projects like Site C and Nuclear power stations. Nice thing, that technology already exists; we don't have to invent it. On another note; heard an interesting statement this weekend. It is now being questioned on who owns the water on these Run-of-the-river projects? And no, it's not the people of BC. In the immortal words of Gomer Pyle "Well surprise, surprise, surprise"
Wilfred Laurier
3 years ago
OK.....
"We can create energy without mega-projects like Site C and Nuclear power stations."
Tell me exactly how to do it. Give me some realistic future growth projections for energy growth, how you will attain them and how much they will cost. Compare your generation estimates with what other sources will produce and then compare the cost per Mw/h. Finally, run of the river is not a mega project.
It is easy, isn't it? And because it is so easy, I want the answers I deserve.
morechatter
3 years ago
Running of the Mouth
Thats what I call it and there is already talk of a Nuclear Plant being built in Canada as an alternative way of cleaning the tar sands. (I worked for the Tar Sands project years ago in Alberta for Petro Canada) What I find interesting is we get all the benefit of all that safe your environment, turn off your lights, sit in the dark, you know its endless. However Americans have not had the benefit of all that environmental stuff we have been hearing day in and day out. Yet they also are consumers of BC Hydro and have use of our Rivers as rumors run rampant. As not to forget they are now a major user of are Oil causing for major environmental damage. Did I mention the Americans out beat Canada when it came down to harming the environment?
NicS
3 years ago
Conservation Will Help Save Our Rivers?
Yes "Pagan Reagan", conserving the power we use from day to day. If we simply start with our homes, we can make huge differences. Changing light bulbs are only the thin edge of the wedge.
When not in use turn off or unplug, lights, turn down heat at night 10 degrees or get a $50 programmable wall thermostat. Seal off and better insulate your house. Weather seals on doors and windows can save huge amounts of energy. Add an exterior layer of insulation to your water heater and turn it off when you go away for the night. Any appliance that uses energy when off should be put on a power bar with an "off" switch.
Recycling can save similar amounts of energy. When one considers, just for starters, how much energy is used to get rid of garbage instead of recycling. Many of us have no more than at most a cubic foot of actual garbage each month after having recycled everything else. If we all recycle, our taxes should be reduced accordingly.
None of the above is difficult, expensive or time consuming and it will help save our rivers and our environment.
But most of all, think about getting involved like Rafe has.
Thanks again Rafe.
morechatter
3 years ago
Oh Yes and Weighing the Issues
I imagine thats what the Oil Companies are doing right now as they wait till January to sign a deal in Billions with Oil Industry. I also imagine Mr. Campbell is busy trying to make that deal even more lucrative with De regulation of the industry. I imagine they also want to know if they can keep on harming Canada's environment without cost or if they have to look for cleaner methods.
morechatter
3 years ago
Oh and Nics
There is nothing wrong with shutting off your lights and all those responsible things to do but it did not take a advertising campagain that is still running and cost tax payers millions and millions. And although we in Vancouver are somewhat more responsible there are 300 million Americans who have not had the benefit of our commericials on safe the planet. Know lets look at it this way how much carbon is produced to earn a buck. I betting someone burnt a great deal of carbon that went on those self furfilling campaigns. And during a recession a carbon tax is a real killer.
egmont rapids
3 years ago
Your missing the point
We can do some run of river but it won`t do us any good finacially!
Private power means private profits,no money for schools health whatever.
There is no power shortage in BC
BC Hydro can build run of river cheaper than the privateers!
Private IPPs are wrong,wrong on all grounds.
What good is ruining hundreds of rivers,just so IPPs can make private profits!
How many jobs do IPPs create after their built? Next to none.
ROCK ON RAFE
Wilfred Laurier
3 years ago
Correct...
"There is no power shortage in BC"
There isn't now. How about in 50 years?
Grumpy
3 years ago
Let's conserve........
........rather than consume energy. We squander huge amounts of energy, needlessly. We do nothing to conserve. Solar and wind power designed for single houses may reduce individual energy consumption by 25% - not bad. such devices are used in Europe and Asia, yet not here.
We squander vast sums of money on 'politically prestigious' projects that offer little practical use.
Rafe's vast experience in B.C.'s political/environmental affairs is not to be gainsaid. We no longer live in a left/right political reality, rather an 'elite'/great unwashed reality, where one party supports the elite class, while the other will be more broad based.
NicS
3 years ago
Wilfred Laurier From The Past
WL is completely out of touch with whats happening when he says:
Its about conserving energy, not using more of it. Anyone like WL who thinks we need to use more energy, is suggesting we create more greenhouse gases(GHGs). WL, what part of Global Warming do you not understand? You say:
WL pretends to be concerned while the "Ice caps in the Arctic, the Glaciers around the world and Ice Shelves in Antartica are all melting. He accuses Rafe Mair of being to old to appreciate what is going to happen if we don't produce more BC grown energy for the markets. What will happen is we will not contribute to Climate Change and our children will have a chance!
Energy greed and consumerist greed are the real issues here.
kootenay
3 years ago
Thanks Rafe
Wilfred, I was going to rip you a new one, but on second thought, why bother.
Anybody with a desire to do minimal research knows Run of River is simply a ploy to Privatize Power Generation with Disastrous Consequences to the Environment and Control of our Water Supply.
There are many alternatives that have already been pointed out by fellow posters, we simply need a government with the desire to support/implement them.
Good work Rafe, thanks for your hard work.
clubofrome
3 years ago
Growth!
For new readers here, many of us including G West and Ed Deak have tried to explain the consequences of unchecked growth. Growth is why we're in the world of shit about to rain down upon us. It's called proper or real accounting, the cost of development has not been reconciled yet. Mainly for lazy attitudes and false beliefs that growth will just continue forever. For those of you who cannot or will not do the research yourselves....
Growth in these terms you refer to do not exist anywhere in nature. Especially the man made growth, what is really stealing wealth from the future of the planet, future generations and threatens our very existance. In economic terms it's called over production, and it's been taking place for 50 years. It's why you have bubble economic growth that doesn't last or bursts when the accounting frauds are exposed. There has been no real ecomic growth in decades, only smoke and mirrors down with banking tricks like derivitives, hedge funds and credit default swaps. And during all this time we consume more and more in non renewable resources that our very future depends upon.
Simple math, is all that's required to prove that economic growth, as we know it, will not continue for much longer. Simple math that children can understand based on growth and doubling times. The research doesn't have to be very deep to expose the myths that seemingly every media outlet repeats day after day, year after year, until it's quoted by those to lazy to use there own brains as gospel.
Quite frankly it's an embarassment to a species of alledged intelligence... For Gods sake please make a minimal investment, if only for your childrens welfare...
alda
3 years ago
Yes, moving to the left is a sign of wisdom
Rafe, you're not alone. A lot of folks who once voted Conservative, Reform, and even Liberal have changed their tune. It has come with maturity, yes, but also with the increasingly horrifying news about the environment, the internet curtain being opened to show reality, and fact that right wing and previously middle-ground parties have moved, radically so, to the far right, forcing fiscal- conservative/ social moderates to look elsewhere for solutions. Cavalier disregard for the public realm by regressive political ideologues across the country has caused this to occur.
As for the comments regarding the use of resources: as usual, the discussion ignores the elephant in the room, which is population growth stress. For some incomprehensible reason, it's distasteful and taboo for milquue-toast Canadians to open a rational debate about population limits.
So be it - I guess if Canadians look forward to the day when their grandchildren are packed like third-world sardines (on the land that is inhabitable in Canada, not so large an area as everyone believes) and are dependent on an increasingly fragile ecosystem, who is it for us - the little peons (and who apparently OWN most of those resources) to have any say in how they are wastefully spent, let alone to worry how our progeny will have enough clean water to drink and agricultural land for food production?
The right wing response is always that we're "fear-mongerers." This lack of intellectual profundity, foresight, and transparency by the regressives in power is astonishing, but what is more astonishing is how the supposedly educated, "kind and gentle" Canadians foolishly continue to vote for it.
S.YEE
3 years ago
RE: The Future (Wilfred Laurier)
Well Mr. Wilfred Laurier, I happen to be 25 years old, so what you said to Rafe, I'll say to you;
"Wilfred, You are in your later years now, (probably in your 40's) & I am concerned about the affect the choices you advocate will have on my children!
1) There isn't unlimited amount of any source of energy on this planet to feed all our energy needs, unless we were able to truly harvest the sun's heat. And suns only last a few billion years as it is.
That means we have to use different types of energy. A few years ago, Stephen Harper made an announcement about using tidal power here in BC. A few weeks before that, either Global or CTV did a news story about the best place in BC to use wind power, and that it could generate ( I don't recall the expact number) 25 or 50% of BC's needs.
All new houses, residential and commercial buildings should be using geothermal and solar panel technology, & once those technologies become mainstream, the costs will go down, and then the government can give grants for existing homes to be retro-fitted.
And use biodigesters. Biodigesters can turn animal and human waste into methane, which then the methane can be used for energy.
Plus, we need to get commercial buildings at night to stop leaving their lights on, etc.
2) If Gordon Campbell really cared about the environment, way isn't he using these other environmentally technologies? Campbell Soup comes up with a Carbon Tax, and what does he do with that tax money?
He gives it back on income taxes. It's like taking $100 dollars from you, and giving it back to you the next day. There's no point! If he had put that estimited $500 million into government grants to make people's homes more environmentally friendly, I could support the carbon tax, which is really just another tax.
If Campbell had raised the gas tax to 3%, instead of calling it a carbon tax, he wouldn't be getting such praise from environmentists!
3) Campbell isn't a Liberal, he's a conservative, pretending to be a Liberal. Ask yourself this, would a Liberal bury power lines & shield because A) You listened to the residents who live there, & B) Even though there still needs to be more research done on power lines, you WILL not risk their health!
Or, would a Liberal ignore the local residents, and put power lines over people homes & schools? That is what a neo-conservative would do, and that's what Gordon Campbell did to the people of Tsawwassen!
You may not care because it's not your community, but Campbell Soup's actions shows that he doesn't listen to what people think, even though the whole community is against it! And that's what makes the Premier ignorant & out of touch.
If the Premier doesn't care what people in Tsawwassen think, then name a riding that the Premier does care about?
clubofrome
3 years ago
Just in case...
...you can't read between the lines. What we are witnessing is the beginning of the end of wealth creation as profit taking on the backs of the poor and the environment. Market economics is failing and the math proves it. The costs of this over production for the sake of the elite will now be passed on to the future, and we're all complicit. Every light switch, every hot shower, every kilometer we drive, is a luxury that hasn't yet been paid for. We took too much too fast, on the back of cheap energy and created a new class of serfs to feed the system. Please explain to me how else we go from 1 billion people in 1835 to 7 billion today? We took the most incredible chemical possible in this known universe, that black gold just lazing about like a hound dog and turned it into the petro chemcial industry we see today. No other way was possible to create modern industry, agriculture and development on the scale never before thought possible.
So when they do the autopsy on this clever, industrious civilization that collapsed, they'll have this confused look on their faces.... They took this wonderous organic chemical that was the key to there future and they........ burned it?!?
S.YEE
3 years ago
RE: The Future (Wilfred Laurier) Part 2.
4) While Neufeld continues to assert that the offer was made to and rejected by the people of Tsawwassen to bury the lines, what he neglects to mention is that that proposal would have seen the lines unshielded and buried just one meter below their backyard lawns, posing unacceptable health risks.
5) After Social Credit fell, they joined up with the BC Liberal Party. Campbell is trying to blance both sides out. The Lower Mainland Liberals support the Federal Party (as do I) and outside the Lower Mainland they support Stephan Harper.
I don't know how long this will last, but if the conservatives can get their shit together, and if Chris Delaney, or someone like him leads them, you can kiss the BC Liberals good bye!
Gordon Wilson got them to 17 seats, but that's really the best they do in this province.
And just for the record, even though I am a federal Liberal, I am supporting the BC NDP in this election.
Glen Clark was a hardcore leftie, who fits right in federally, but in general, the BC NDP is more moderate.
The BC Liberal party, with neo-consevatives like Soup Boy, Falcon & others, makes them not a Liberal party at all!
G West
3 years ago
For those who are concerned with BC's energy future
Please take some time and research how California (which has growth rates and load requirements far higher than ours) has managed to restrain its electricity use very successfully without increasing capacity.
We need to stop selling energy to others and start conserving - simple stuff and if California can do it, we certainly can
There is no longer any excuse.
frank2
3 years ago
Clubofrome and several
Clubofrome and several others are right.
Our consumption patterns are sustainable. Even more important than the number of people is that amount each wants to consume in our society. We are "fortunate" to live at the height of a "bubble" -- in this case, living off consumption of natural capital which cannot be replaced -- but our children and grandchildren won't have that luxury.
The situation is rendered even more difficult by the fact that the vast majority of the world's population does not enjoy this level of consumption, and is determined to try to achieve it.
Will we be lucky enough to (1) install appropriate controls and incentives to start making the necessary changes, and (2) develop a cultural superstructure of values and ideas which gives life meaning more compelling than the consumption rat race (and avoids the bloody consequences of some fundamentalism which dehumanises those who disagree)?
The prognosis is lousy. Our national government, with its fixation on tar sands (energy super power) and its confusion of culture with Olympics parades (the epitome of meretritrious glitz and consumer glamour) doesn't get it. Nor, for the most part, do the other parties. (Not surprising, as most of the electorate doesn't get it either.)
The one hopeful thing is that so many young people do "get it." But will they find a way to act on this understanding?
frank2
3 years ago
Clubofrome and several ...correction
Ooops.
I should have previewed that post.
It should read "Our consumption patterns are NOT sustainable."
Skywalker
3 years ago
YEE
Exactly what is a hardcore leftie? as opposed to a soft core leftie or a hardcore liberal as opposed to....
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
A Reality Check... #1
Sure, Rafe, I'll bite! :)
I guess it bears repeating again and again:
BC Hydro - Under NDP Management
From BC Hydro's 1999/2000/2001 annual reports:
http://www.bchydro.com/etc/medialib/internet/documents/info/pdf/info_2000_annual_report.Par.0001.File.info_2000_annual_report.pdf
http://www.bchydro.com/etc/medialib/internet/documents/info/pdf/info_2001_annual_report.Par.0001.File.info_2001_annual_report.pdf
So let's get this straight. BC Hydro, under NDP management:
1. Encourages micro hydro IPP's;
2. Gives IPP's a list of 600 rivers for run of river IPP's;
3. Prepares a handbook for IPP's on how to develop micro hydro;
4. Enters into IPP contracts for micro hydro;
So the current provincial government is continuing on with NDP BC Hydro practice. What's the diff?
As for the continuation of the NDP IPP program, these IPP projects are puny relative to BC Hydro's generating capacity (both current and planned):
1.5 MW, 2.4 MW, 3.1 MW, 16 MW, 29 MW, etc.
http://www.bchydro.com/planning_regulatory/acquiring_power/green_ipps.html
Compare those puny figures to BC Hydro's existing in excess of 11,000 MW!
Now as for these puny IPP's, many (if not all) have a First Nations financial component providing isolated rural First Nations with employment and revenue streams.
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
Reality Check... #2
And then BC Hydro is developing/planning further generating facilities:
1. Unit 5 - Mica Dam - 500 MW;
2. Unit 6 - Mica Dam - 500 MW;
3. Unit 5 - Revelstoke Dam - 500 MW;
4. Unit 6 - Revelstoke Dam - 500 MW;
5. Site C Dam - 900 MW;
6. Columbia Basin Trust/Power Corporation -Waneta Dam Expansion - 435 MW;
7. Columbia Basin Trust/Power Corporation -
Brilliant Dam Expansion - 120 MW;
That's a total of an additional 3,455 MW in additional crown corporation generating capacity or approximately 30% more than existing generating capacity.
From the Vancouver Sun:
UnCivilizedEngineer
3 years ago
I am concerned about our energy future...
1. If you don't believe the energy projections I don't blame you - they are too low. The energy plan does not assume people switch to higher electricity-intensive technologies such as heat pumps or plug-in hybrid vehicles BTW. 50% of new growth through conservation measures is a lofty goal, considering how successful our past efforts have been. Where does the new power come from?
2. BC Hydro is already massively expanding its technical workforce to deal with expansion projects of their own, not including IPPs. This will be a challenge, as the personnel they are looking for(engineers, operators, project managers) are in high demand everywhere. They will come at a high price. I ask, if Hydro is to be the provider of 100% of our new generation capacity, how will they do this without the human resources? (And don't say that Accenture is the problem - it is totally unrelated to generation, transmission and distribution of power)
3. Fossil fuel-based electricity is the prime source for most of the world outside BC. We have two opportunities in front of us: a) an absolutely massive supply of potential generation from renewables and b) the chance to develop an export industry, not just for power itself, but for expertise. a) is the springboard for b), but it will not happen if the well-developed IPP industry here is crushed by an ideological opposition to (basically) one form of generation, being run-of-river.
4. Quote: "All I say is that people like Neufeld and other ideologues do no service to the public weal by rejecting ideas out of hand because they come from those you normally don't agree with." Same can be said for the anti-IPP camp. We're talking about ideology, not good policy or technology. This whole issue is about NDP vs. Liberals - it's readily apparent when you read the posts on this site.
As a final comment - those who truly believe in reducing fossil fuel usage should support IPP development. Even if we produce more power than BC's needs, by selling to the South or East we reduce overall GHG production. Climate change knows no borders.
Wilfred Laurier
3 years ago
NicS, all I have to say is
NicS, all I have to say is BANANA and NIMBY.
Fiat lux
3 years ago
Everybody is yakking about
Everybody is yakking about energy "savings" in the home, but nobody mentions that the vast majority of that electric, gas and oil energy is used to replace a few workers with huge amounts of other forms of energy and then call it "efficiency".
The labour force in our mills has been reduced to a fraction of what it was 30 years ago, making good wages, but the energy inputs multiplied many times over and the benefits are taken from the communities. I should say "stolen", because when people are fired to divert their wages into the pockets of "investors" it is a simple theft. Especially when the energy inputs multiplied through overcapitalization and waste.
There's no such thing as monetary "efficiency", because, in today's terms, it means more profits for less monetary inputs, therefore it is a fraud.
Somebody should also enlighten the so called "right", that monetary investment means nothing, foreign investment is a fraud as it brings nothing to a country, the intent is to take.
The only thing that "creates jobs and wealth" is the ownership of resources, which means that governments must be forced to allocate those dwindling resources to the benefit of most and not of an international corporate mafia, controlling the markets and who lives and dies.
Ed Deak.
snert
3 years ago
S.YEE
Your thinking outside the box when it's not germane.
We're talking BC here not the whole planet. There is lots of room for expansion contrary to what clubofrome might think and short of taking up arms you are not going to stop people from wanting to come here.
We have great potential for green energy supplies and we should take advantage of them all. If we don't do it properly now then some one else may come along later who doesn't really give a rat's ass. Oh....I think that person might just be running the province at this very moment.
alive
3 years ago
Fido cost energy too
One reason we keep increasing our demand for power is the increased population!
Thanks to religious zealots far too many children are born!
Many kids was a security for your future in the old days, when many kids died early.
Today there is no need to have a bunch of kids and most families can't really afford it anyhow.
While on the overpopulation subject, has anyone made a study about how much energy family pets costs us?
Not much point in turning off lights etc. if the cat and dog causes more energy waste than you save?
Yes, I know: "motherhood and applepie!" somehow it is sacrilege to wonder why people do what they do.
jimmy_laroux
3 years ago
I guess it bears repeating...
Luke Skywalker:
I guess it bears repeating that the IPPs were started under the Socreds. According to BC Hydro:
So it's not really an "NDP program", is it?
After the 2006 Open Call for Power, "B.C. Hydro had agreed to buy 7,125 GWh", ~12% of the energy used in the province each year. Not exactly a drop in the bucket.
http://thetyee.ca/Views/2006/10/30/BCHydro/
jimmy_laroux
3 years ago
UnCivilizedEngineer: You
UnCivilizedEngineer:
You work for an IPP, right?
What are you talking about? You think that they don't have an HR department?
This is a false dichotomy. A third possibility is that BC Hydro builds more non-GHG emitting power generation facilities.
G West
3 years ago
Better solutions
http://www.nrdc.org/air/energy/acrisis.asp
ssharlow
3 years ago
BBeing a lefty
You know what we need is a Liberal Party. You know, centrist, reasonable not left nor right, able to look at all sides of the coin. Oh! I forgot that Liberal Party is long gone. TOO bad.
RickW
3 years ago
Wilfred Laurier & Ronald Pagan
FACT: 60% of the energy generated is WASTED, through such things as inefficient applications, leakage in transmission, poor insulation in homes and buildings, and a host of others. Tighten all that up, before demanding "projections".
SharingIsGood
3 years ago
RE: Going left
Well Rafe,
I guess that Campbell and Harper have moved so far to the right that just about the only thing missing are the funny mustaches by their leaders, the goose-stepping by the police and the mandatory brown shirts by government employees. You haven't moved at all, Rafe, the parties have. Isn't it odd that Canada should elect the last of the great deregulators? It must be so incredibly sad for one, like yourself, who has worked so hard on behalf of the people of Canada to watch these hucksters give it away.
Isn't it strange how the Democrat, Barack Obama, won his presidency by using Layton's Federal NDP fiscal and technology plans? Additionally, I note that Obama wants to reduce media concentration. He knows that if the owners of big media have their way, there will never be another Democrat elected. It is too late for truth in Canadian publishing unless people quit buing into big media and the empires are permitted to crumble.
The NDP needs to produce hand-bills and get people out on the street and shaking people's hands.
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/
http://www.ndp.ca/platform
reallife
3 years ago
Help find lefty?
Can anyone help me find the site where Neufeld calls Mair a lefty? I looked on Neufeld's website but did not see any mention of Mair or use of the term "left". All I could find was the usual political shots at Carole James and John Horgan.
stevie wonders
3 years ago
re: Guess I'm a Leftist Now
Rafe is right. Today in BC we enjoy many services that were introduced by the NDP. They include the Seabus, BC Ambulance Service (previously a haphazard collection of private operators), BC Transit (ditto), and the Agricultural Land Reserve, to name a few.
However, this does not excuse the NDP from the many ruinous policies they introduced that caused the BC economy to suffer. We would have had a higher standard of living today were it not for the bouts of recession or poor GDP growth that can be traced directly to NDP government mismanagement.
What concerned citizens who believe in the free market system need to do is to support a centrist party that believes in consumer protection, the right level of regulation in the marketplace, and good government. I thought that was what the BC Liberal Party was resurrected in the 1990s to do, but I sometimes wonder.
bontano
3 years ago
Car salesmen?
No wonder you ran in to trouble, Rafe. When you took on the crooked car salesmen. you made enemies of half the Socred cabinet.
northernspirits
3 years ago
'green' alternatives
This is in response to the people who don't seem to know about viable 'green' alternative sources of power. (Ronald Pagan, Wilfred Laurier, ... ) Of course wind and solar are not firm sources but are good in conjunction with existing hydro. They compliment it well since Hydro has the ability to store energy. It makes sense to get what you can out of these 'green' sources and use hydro when you fall short rather than writing them off because they aren't firm sources. However, a 'green' source that is often overlooked is geothermal. We have a huge advantage in BC as there are locations here that make geothermal commercially viable. The technology is there and being used extensive in other parts of the world but we seem to lag behind. One geothermal plant at Meager Mountain has the potential to produce 300 MW of 'green' power. Not only does it have the advantage of being 'green' but it is also cheaper to get that power than from the proposed site C dam which destroys a huge river valley with prime agricultural land and wildlife habitat. "Cash flow analysis, conducted for a feasibility study, show that the resource can potentially produce electricity at a cost of less than 5 cents per kilowatt-hour. This includes all costs related to capital investment (drilling, power plant and connection to the Grid), amortized over 25 years, and operating costs" from http://gaeaenergy.com/projects.htm
S.YEE
3 years ago
Glen Clark:
What I mean't by a "Hardcore Leftie" was that Glen Clark wasn't a moderate. He was far left, in my eyes. I was 15 when Glen Clark was caught giving a casino license for a deck!
As for the whole, Liberals following what the NDP did, NDP following the Socred policy, political governments never last. What I mean by political is, NDP, Liberal, Consevative. Governments stay around, they just get new captains!
Besides the PC's in Alberta, & if I recall my BC polticial history correctly, the Social Credit had a nice run too, are the rare ones to last in government. Party's usally last 1-3 terms. Usally two.
My point is, I'm tired of people in their 40-60's who keep bringing up Brian Mulroney, to bash the conservatives, Jean Chretien to bash the liberals, & Glen Clark to bash the NDP.
Unless they are running again, or the people who were with them, why keep bringing it up? 100 years from now, are people still going to bring up Brian Mulroney? Don't blame the son, for the sins of his father.
Everyone from the Glen Clark days is gone, expect for Mike Farnworth, who was a decent MLA, Adrian Dix, who was a backroom boy, doing whatever backroom boys do, & Harry Lali, who I don't like! Corky is retiring.
reallife
3 years ago
Geothermal
Northern Spirits, I agree with you that geothermal energy has great potential. There are many places in the world, including Italy, Iceland, USA, the Philipines) where geothermal is an important energy source.
However, the Meager project has had a lengthy, expensive and not very successful history. Deep well drilling was first carried out by BC Hydro in the 1970s. BCH walked from the project after spending many millions of dollars. Subsequent work by private industry has yet to find a reservoir that would produce commercial amounts of energy.
Even if the Meager Creek resource proves to be viable, the project faces two very large BANANA hurdles. There has already been significant opposition to drilling in the region and this will intensify if commercial development should be proposed. The second problem is transmitting the power to market. A powerline through the Whistler corridor is not going to be popular!
I sincerely wish the project proponents and anyone else wanting to develop geothermal power all the best. If you have some spare money, you can be certain that the Meager Creek developers would appreciate an influx of investment!
minnow
3 years ago
wind power
The people who wonder where the power will come from if we don't press ahead with micro hydro dismiss wind power out of hand. Please, everyone, pay attention. Wind power has a huge role to play in BC.
Don't just write wind off as too expensive. First of all, if you check the numbers, we're not talking a big difference. The cheapest new power from dirty coal would cost about five cents per kwh to generate. Wind comes in at around eight cents per kwh. Micro hydro will probably cost every bit as much as wind.
Plus, our massive existing hydro power gives us a huge advantage over most other countries that turn to the wind. Hydro reservoirs can act as energy storage units. When the dams are full, we can sell any excess power abroad. When the dams are not full, we use the wind power to reduce the amount of water we draw down from the reservoirs, leaving more for peak generation, calm weather spells, and dry season demand. Wind power extends what we can do with existing hydro.
Frankly, it is an embarassment that there are no wind power plants in BC. We not only have the perfect compliment to wind in our hydro reservoirs, we also have some of the best wind generation sites in the world.
And still we generate electicity using diesel in the Queen Charlottes! How dumb.
northernspirits
3 years ago
still on geothermal
But if the reason it was abandoned years ago was as they said "A low energy market and lack of real incentive for renewable energy, on the part of government" and that it is now coming back to life "due to increasing energy prices and rising interest in renewable and environmentally sounds energy alternatives" then it seems to have merit. (Quoted from http://gaeaenergy.com/projects.htm)
I agree on the BANANA hurdles as you say. Even though it is a 'green' environmentally sound source and far less destructive than the site C dam would be I am sure there will be many who oppose it as nobody wants anything in their back yard even if it is 'green'.
egmont rapids
3 years ago
Some of the many potential problems
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-colubia/story/2008/11/06/bc-miller-creek.html
SharingIsGood
3 years ago
What?! S.Yee
S. YEE
You are obvious proof that the ficticious story/6 months of a lie job that the Main Stream Media and the Liberals put on Glenn Clark worked for them. You have been gullible, and you still believe the lie!
If Clark wanted, he could sue you for libel.
Taken From CBC News: Glen Clark not guilty in breach of trust case
Last Updated: Thursday, August 29, 2002 | 10:03 PM ET
"[Judge] Bennett ruled that there was virtually no evidence that Pilarinos actually swayed anyone in the government to approve the casino. The temporary licence was later cancelled.
But "there is a plethora of evidence that he pretended to have influence to affect a casino decision" because of his ties with Clark, the judge said. She convicted Pilarinos of six of nine charges against him.
Clark said the case prematurely ended his political career, "pretty tough" punishment considering he was later acquitted of all charges."
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2002/08/29/clark_verdict020829.html
What is most ludicrous is the fact that even if it were true, the Clark story pales compared to the great quantity of Campbell/Liberal scandals.
Further, Campbell the juicer and the Liberals have been the worst managers of the public purse. They've sold the farm!
They've killed wild salmon in our rivers!
They've turned hydro production over to private industry that will sell it to the highest bidder - the Americans!
They've sold our railway - quite possibly illegaly when they said they wouldn't!
They've stolen our ability to keep tabs on them through reducing question period and moving much government business into rooms outside the main legislature. Even when being asked questions about their governance, they don't answer the questions asked!
They've given away designated Tree Farm (TFL) forest land to the big businesses that raped the land and exported the old-growth logs without requiring value to be added!
They've not commented upon the Basi-Virk case, and they've done everything they can to slow the progress of the case!
$1/2 Billion in convention centre over-runs and counting!
They've failed to deal with pine beetles and the billions of dollars worth of wood being left behind and becoming more worthless by the day!
Campbel's number one man, Ken Doebel, working as a lobbyist for Vancouver while collecting a Provincial salary for advising the Premier!
They gave huge tax breaks to foreign-owned resource sector businesses when resource prices and profits were the greatest ever on record! Record profits while BC has had the highest percentage of Canada's impoverished children and women!
With P-3s coming due, there's lots more dirt than this if you want it.
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
S. Yee...
Being a federal Liberal myself, the BC NDP has become too dogmatic and ideological in their policy positions. Certainly the policy positions of former premiers Harcourt and Miller do not fit with the current version of the BC NDP and would not find comfort with that party.
Take, for example, Manitoba Premier Gary Doer who operates akin to the federal Liberals.
Under his management, Manitoba Hydro is very comfortable with IPP's (unlike the BC NDP).
The St. Leon wind farm IPP:
Other wind farm IPP's:
http://www.hydro.mb.ca/projects/wind_300mw_proposal.shtml
The BC NDP and the Manitoba NDP may have the same party brand but operate as two different animals on numerous policy positions.
egmont rapids
3 years ago
Don`t forget
Ken Dobell was in charge of the Convention center for the first 3 years.(no wonder it is 500 million over budget)
Ken dobell was lobbying for the city of Vancouver for social housing while working for the premier.
But there is a big story there that the media didn`t cover.
Robert Archer of Archer real estate just happened to have a funny hunch,so Mr. Archer went out and bought 5 SRO (single room occupancy hotels) rundown/roach infested/all in violation of many city health codes.
No one wanted these derilict buildings that were for sale.
Anyways, Mr. Archer bought all 5 of these hotels foe 10 million dollars!
What happened next?
Well,bring in the "fixer" DR.Dobell(ken) --Who now was lobbying the premier for social housing for Vancouver.
10 months after Robert Archer bought these run down/tear down hotels( 5 of them for 10 million)
HE SOLD THEM TO THE PROVINCE FOR 22 MILLION DOLLARS,NOT A BAD PROFIT FOR 10 MONTHS!
ALL LEGAL,OF COURSE.
I WOULD NEVER MAKE THE CLAIM THAT KEN DOBELL AND ROBERT ARCHER WERE THE BEST OF FREINDS!
Besides,ken Dobell was punished by the courts for this, HE HAD TO WRITE AN ESSAY!
JUST A LITTLE FOOD FOR THOUGHT!
Cheers
Ronald Pagan
3 years ago
Also, even conservative
Also, even conservative projections of energy demand in the province has total demand eclipsing supply as soon as 2015.
Where is the new supply going to come from?
It certainly wont be from energy conservation. We are electrifying our energy demands at a rapid pace. HDTVs, hybrids, computers, iphones, ipods, all are not going away and all will offset any energy efficiency gains we make.
Simply stating that the answer rests with energy efficiency is myopic and dangerous.
So the question remains, where will the new supply come from?
More coal fired energy imports from Alberta and Washington?
Because that's what we are relying on right now.
Ronald Pagan
3 years ago
You know why there's no wind
You know why there's no wind farms in BC?
Because it's too expensive compared to other sources like run-of-river.
The comments in this thread are the epitome of willing to have cake and eat it too.
S.YEE
3 years ago
Back on topic!
Like a pennie, it all adds up! Building homes more energy efficient, using more environmentally friendly appliances, will save energy that then can be transfered to new homes, etc.
As for new energy production, geothermal, biodigesters, solar, wind, tidal, with what we currently use for energy should be good enough for years to come.
Unless of course your planning on having 1 billion people live in the province, which even then, Tomato Soup Boy's BC Energy Plan won't be enough!
Anyways, I'm done posting on this topic. I said what I felt needed to be said about Cream of Soup's energy plan.
UnCivilizedEngineer
3 years ago
Laroux
Actually, the last power company I worked for was BC Hydro, but thanks for asking.
Funny enough...Hydro doesn't have an HR department - they outsourced that. And anyway, the HR department had little to do with acquiring power - essentially just signing paycheques and billing customers.
If you understand the BC Hydro energy planning process you know that they consider all sources of power, small and large. Yes it is possible for Hydro to build more new projects, but let's face it, there is little appetite for any new BC Hydro-scale projects anywhere near the load centre. In fact the only one on the books is Site C - the only one for the last 30 years. And if you think the Tsawassen powerline was a big deal, 900 MW doesn't walk itself from Peace River to Vancouver.
Hydro isn't in the business of prospecting for new power sites that will end up being a management nightmare for them. If they added 100 small projects they'd need 300-500 new staff, which again are hard to come by in today's job market. This capacity does exist in the private sector, however, which is much better suited for providing small projects. Plus because a large number of these ventures will fail, the ratepayers are shielded from the failed businesses - this cost would otherwise be borne by us.
Oops, I almost forgot - the last big project Hydro was going to build was a natural gas plant at Duke Point...good thing someone pulled the plug on that! I think his name was Richard. Now if only we could install a wind turbine in front of Rafe's mouth - a steady source of hot air.
S.YEE
3 years ago
Damn...
Penny, not pennie!
Ronald Pagan
3 years ago
It's easy to criticize.
It's easy to criticize.
IPPs and run of river might not be the optimal approach but Rafe has added nothing to the current policy debate.
What would you do Rafe? Would you build wid farms that are also environmentally damanging, ruin the natural landscape and cost, at bare minimum, $70/MWh to be even remotely economical?
Also, all of the high potential wind sites are fairly remote. Are you going to build millions of dollars of state of the art transmissions lines through natural environment to facilitate these wind famrs delivering electricity to demand centres?
Talk is cheap.
IndyJones
3 years ago
Liberals have to go
Excellent commentary, Raif.
If the political winds blowing south of the border are any indication, neo-conservatism, a movement for unfettered greed and avarice, may be on the wane. Let's hope so. BC cannot afford any more policies underwritten by the ilk of Campbell, Neufeld and others in the so-called "Liberal" party. Unfortunately, I would bet that they once again form a government in the next election.
I'm not a fan of Carole James - she was an ineffectual school trustee - but a house cleaning is needed, for the sake of the environmental, social and financial well-being of this province. Out of interest, I'd like to know how many dollar equivalents of "fast-ferry fiascos" that the Liberals have racked up in public debt. The Liberals have had their day, as has the corrupt Bush administration in the US. I'll hold my nose and vote NDP whenever the election comes.
Skywalker
3 years ago
Let's get back on Rafe's article.
This article was Rafe's response to a letter Neufeld sent out to local papers of towns where Rafe participated in a panel discussion on run-of-the-rivers-projects amoung other environmental issues. Rafe visited some towns in the Northwest. After a few tries of nespapaers up there I found this one at http://www.bclocalnews.com/bc_north/terracestandard/opinion/letters/33765574.html for a copy of Neufeld's letter.
I guess it's the line about Rafe being in lock step with the NDP that is the issue.
It is rather an old technique and Neufeld is not even very good at it. I doubt that he even wrote the letter himself and some campbell staffer probably thought that Rafe was having too much influence as a non NDP'er. One vote for the NDP doesn't make a leftie. I hope not. I think I once voted for a Socred but I never thought of myself as a rightie.
Thank you sharingisgood for that correction and as for Luke, sir you should know that I knew Harcourt and you sir sure do not. Any suggestion that you have an an accurate comparison of any of the NDP leaders is pure myth.
egmont rapids
3 years ago
Sorry I drifted
Back on topic
I need to make a correction,it was not Robert Archer
It was Robert Wilson of Archer real estate
Here is the link
http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=a928c1e6-1eab-48f7-b1ad-765e42bade5f
egmont rapids
3 years ago
Luke
I bet Gary Doer of Manitoba doesn`t have to worry about wild salmon needing to spawn?
Typical LUKE, why is it that because someone else can do-it,so should we?
Who care`s what Doer does.
Private power will not help BCs finances,private power just wants to fill their pockets.
northernspirits
3 years ago
Ronald Pagan
Again geothermal is being used very successfully in other places http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-geothermal3-2008nov03,0,3620633.story and we have the potential in BC to use it. At least a plant at Meager Mountain would put the power close to where it is needed as opposed to the proposed site C dam which would lose an estimated 10% in transmission.
seth
3 years ago
Neufeld - BC's Joey Smallwood
Does anybody know if this guy even has a high school diploma? Yet on the backbench we have Ralph Sultan P.Eng (Electrical) former Professor of Economics at Harvard and CFO of RBC Dominion. Go figure.
To the SoCalled Engineer - BCHydro could contract out as many run of the river projects it wants just as does any other project. These IPP's are little more than venture capital companies doing exactly the same. The difference is Hydro's cost of capital (BC Government bonds) is 3%, the IPP's need 20 -30% return to get the markets to even look at them. Recognizing this Gordo and thugs are giving them 9 to 12 cents a kwh when BCHydro could do it for 3 to 5. The Upper Manquim run of the river project came in at less 3 cents a kwh. Neither Glen Clark nor Garry Doer were offering these wacky power rates. Its estimated the Campbell and his gang now have BC taxpayers on the hook for 40 billion for the power that Hydro could generate for 10.
Neufeld Campbell and his cronies make Joey Smallwood look like a financial genius.
seth
3 years ago
Nuclear
A company called Hyperion is using a Los Alamos technology which produces 25 mw electricity or 75 mw steam for 5 year period in a sealed utterly safe unmanned hot tub sized nuclear battery. After 5 years the unit is returned for refueling. Cost about 3.5 cents a kwh.
Makes the Campbell/Neufeld nitwit's 9 -12 cents a kwh for 50 years look really smart.
http://www.hyperionpowergeneration.com/
northernspirits
3 years ago
Ronald Pagan
This link says why BC would do so well with geothermal:
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=cfbbf32d-4a3f-48d5-9b69-7ec6a82a3d5a
The locations are all closer to where the load is so there is at least less transmission lines needed and less power lost in transmission.
dave49
3 years ago
Who builds run-of-river?
I recall seeing a news story where BC Federation of Labour President Jim Sinclair said run-of-river hydro plants would be acceptable if they were built by union labour.
I want someone to explain what the REAL agenda is here. I've asked this question before and nobody will come anywhere near it. Any takers?
UnCivilizedEngineer
3 years ago
Nice try Seth
Ridicule my professional status all you want Seth - are your lights still on? You can thank us later.
You show me a new run-of-river site that can be built for 3-5 cents/kWh and I will come running with my wallet open. Less than 3 cents? I'd suggest closer to 5 c/kWh, prices what they were in 2004.
The cheapest sites are now coming in between 7-9 c/kWh cost at 6% financing. This is the cheapest ANYONE can build at. IPPs are being paid about this rate for non-firm energy (which is typically exported), and a higher premium for firm energy (your 9-12 c/kWh). The firm energy is what we are missing right now, and accounts for those 'net' imports from the states.
IPPs might retain 15% annually on earnings, never mind they have to spend 4-5 years in the development phase where they have zero earnings from commercial operations. Once running these projects are looking at another 4-5 years to break even. Put that scenario into public dollars and it does not make a lot of sense to have Hydro chasing 100 small projects around - they quickly add up to a lot of money (probably $5-6 billion). Hydro is already investing $5-6 billion in upgrades, and at risk of repeating myself, has their workforce basically maxed out with this work. The additional generation acquisition places unneeded strain.
BTW, Hydro sets budgets at a 6% real discount rate, private industry is 8-10%.
I like the looks of that Hyperion technology, but I sincerely doubt it is the solution to our energy needs.
UnCivilizedEngineer
3 years ago
Easy answer Dave49
Look at who organizes Citizens for Public Power. It's not the greenies. COPE 378 has one agenda - elect the NDP. And with the money that COPE 378 donates to the NDP, why would the NDP consider anything but trying to destroy one of BC's future hopeful industries that isn't run by unions?
Oops, are my political stripes showing?
G West
3 years ago
Learning from others
Before British Columbia builds another dam, dams another stream, rewards another of Gordon Campbell's friends or sells another gigawatt of our energy resources to the Americans (or anyone else)we need to learn there is another, better way to proceed.
This report from California is a good way to start - and it's a hell of a lot cheaper than making the same mistakes over and over again.
http://www.next10.org/pdf/report_eijc/UCB_Energy_Innovation_and_Job_Creation_10-20-08.pdf
I’ll just quote a few lines that make the point about how foolish our present direction is (by comparison) and how our current lack of critical thinking is handicapping the province’s future:
Over the last thirty-five years, as a result of landmark energy efficiency policies, California has de-coupled from national trends of electricity demand, reducing its per capita requirements to 40 percent below the national average.
Using detailed data on the changing economic structure over the period 1972-2006, (this report reveals that) …one of the most potent catalysts of efficiency-based economic growth (is), household reductions in per capita electricity demand.
Because it represents over 70 percent of Gross State Product (GSP), household consumption is the most powerful driver (in California)…
(These) (e)nergy efficiency measures have enabled California households to redirect
their expenditures toward other goods and services, creating about 1.5
million FTE jobs with a total payroll of $45 billion, driven by well-documented
household energy savings of $56 billion from 1972-2006.
As a result ... California reduced its energy import dependence and directed a greater percentage of its consumption to instate, employment-intensive goods and services, whose supply chains also
largely reside within the state, creating a “multiplier” effect of job generation.
…
(not that our current government 'cares' about such things)
SharingIsGood
3 years ago
Excellent post, G West
So, if we...
Reduce our consumption.
Require solar-assisted water heating, high R-value walls and windows, and heat recovery of sewage on new construction.
Require installation of solar water heating to be included for medium to large-scale renovations (valued at $30,000+) and all re-roofs.
Give net-metering (electricity buy-back) to all who add power to the grid through geothermal, wind or solar.
Develop our own factories to produce wind and solar energy.
Change zoning to allow for the conversion of huge homes into duplexes, triplexes and quads.
Heavily tax large cars and homes.
Outlaw asphalt-based composition shingles.
...we just might have a chance of creating the energy we need without killing the remaining salmon, bears, eagles etc. in the next generation.
sirjohna
3 years ago
if you want to get wealthy
if you want to get wealthy in anticipation of the socialist enviro-hordes winning the next election you may want to buy shares in candle and blanket making companies. you'll also need to make sure you have a good bicycle and a solar-powered bbq.
G West
3 years ago
You're right sharing
We shouldn't be afraid to learn from others' experiences - even sirjohna makes an admirable point to be very careful of people who tell us anything when their real motivation is enhancing their own bank accounts and status.
I would have thought the Campbell years had burned that message into everyone's brain by now, but it's good he brought it up.
seth
3 years ago
Un CIVIL ized engineer
Ah I get it now a civil engineer. That explains a lot!!! Known in college for enormous capacity for alcohol and no capacity whatever for math.
A lesson in basic engineering economics. The annuitized cost of up front capital projects depends completely on what the province is selling long term bonds for over the operational time frame of the project.
So 3 to 5 cents per kwh would mean nothing to your wallet unless are are happy tying your money up for 30 years or so at 5%.
The Upper Mamquam $40 million project was projected to sell 100 Gigawhr's per year to BC ratepayers. Since maintenance on these automated plants is zero to none ( I 've worked on them) that works out to a cost of 2.5 cents a kwh at 5% over 30 years.
According to its wikopedia entry Plutonic Power's East Toba project now under construction will produce 745 GWh annually of electricity and will cost approximately $660 M. Works out to 5.7 cents per kwh.
Up to a few months ago construction costs were estimated as double they were a few years ago. With the BC's economic slowdown looming construction costs will return to the levels seen by the Upper Mamquam project.
The 15% return of investment your hedge fund owned IPP's require is considerably higher than the 5% that Hydro breaks even at so we can see why we are paying them 3 times as much for the power.
As you are well aware and that makes you Neocon power people so disingenuous, the net imports would be nothing if we simply repatriated the Columbia river power benefits. And of course once again as you are well aware, BCHydro exports power for more than it pays for the imports so it makes money on balance. And once again you never seem to get it, Hydro can contract with SNC Lavilin or Bechtel to coordinate projects if Gordo and gang continue to forbid them from hiring their own experts.
Note the Hyperion power is guaranteed continuous and would likely be available to purchase at less than 5 cents a kwh from more enlightened jurisdictions south of the border. A lot cheaper than the 9 to 12 cents the IPP's are getting for their very low value mostly springtime power.
jimmy_laroux
3 years ago
UnCivilizedEngineer
UnCivilizedEngineer:
Really? Then if you are not employed by an IPP, then are you involved with a company involved in the design, planning, or construction of IPP facilities perhaps? Not that I expect an honest answer, but I'll ask anyway.
So you agree that they have HR facilities (through Accenture). What point were you trying to make with this quote:
Uh, by hiring more people? Just a thought.
"Today's job market"? Ha! Maybe they can hire some engineers from Nortel, who've recently been let go in "today's job market":
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2008/11/10/nortel-jobs.html?ref=rss
Or maybe some folks who were cut from GM plants in Canada?
http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2008/11/10/gm-layoffs.html?ref=rss
http://www.canada.com/windsorstar/story.html?id=9f67248f-f27d-4927-831d-351ca1416221
Or perhaps people previously working in BC's sagging forestry sector, or the construction sector which will soon join it?
http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2008/06/10/bc-mill-closure-mackenzie-canfor.html?ref=rss&loomia_si=t0:a16:g2:r2:c0.101057:b17246946
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2008/10/27/forestry.html?ref=rss
But anyway, it is surely no harder for BC Hydro than for the IPPs to hire new staff.
Nonsense. Why can the "private sector" do this and BC Hydro not?
I imagine BC Hydro would be able to do a far better job than these small IPPs. They can draw on decades of experience with building and operating larger facilities, and their costs would be lower because of the number of projects (economies of scales and so forth).
This is getting pathetic.
Is BC Hydro run by unions? And as has been pointed out above in this thread, the NDP weren't exactly hostile to IPPs.
Yeah, and a few other things are showing as well.
sirjohna
3 years ago
only a master spindoctor
[OFFENSIVE COMMMENT DIRECTED AT ANOTHER COMMENTER REMOVED. -MODERATOR.]
jimmy_laroux
3 years ago
Are you referring to me?
Are you referring to me?
sirjohna
3 years ago
no, i'm referring to the
[OFFENSIVE COMMENT DIRECTED AT ANOTHER COMMENTER REMOVED. -MODERATOR.]
jimmy_laroux
3 years ago
I think you mean "shill",
I think you mean "shill", not "shrill".
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
Seth...
Hmmmmmm... ya know what???
BC Hydro, under NDP management, was paying IPP's 5.69 cents/kWh in 1999. Almost ten years ago!!!
The dogmatism here never ceases to amaze me. :)
sirjohna
3 years ago
as noted.
as noted.
jimmy_laroux
3 years ago
Dogmatism?
Luke Skywalker, seth:
In 1999 BC Hydro was paying one tenth that, 0.56 cents per kWh, for electricity it generated. It was buying 1,839 GWh of electricity from IPPs.
http://www.bchydro.com/etc/medialib/internet/documents/info/pdf/info_2000_annual_report.Par.0001.File.info_2000_annual_report.pdf
Currently BC Hydro pays 61.39 $ per MWh for IPP generated electricity, and 6.10 $ per MWh for its own power. It now buys 7,765 GWh from IPPs.
http://www.bchydro.com/etc/medialib/internet/documents/info/pdf/info_annual_report_2008.Par.0001.File.info_annual_report_2008.pdf
From the same report...
So BC Hydro will nearly double purchases from IPPs in the coming years. Purchases which, so far, cost roughly ten times as much as power generated by BC Hydro.
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
Yep... Dogmatism
And in the 2000/01 fiscal year, BC Hydro, under NDP management, paid out $58.80/MWh to IPPs.
http://www.bchydro.com/etc/medialib/internet/documents/info/pdf/info_2001_annual_report.Par.0001.File.info_2001_annual_report.pdf
Better throw in the caveat.
BC Hydro's large dams were constructed during the 1960's and 1970's.
An analogy - an era when a single family house could be purchased for roughly $30,000 and today? Roughly $700,000.
And then throw in the costs for rehab.
This year and over the next two years, BC Hydro's aging generating assets will require $5.3 billion for rehab.
Throw that figure into the equation and BC Hydro's cost of generation goes up... way up.
G West
3 years ago
So
Quoting from a University of California
Berkeley study is 'shilling'?
Seems to me, if the great state of California can reduce its energy requirements by 40% over the US average they might have something to teach British Columbians. Something that might save jobs, rivers and the environment.
But of course, if it doesn't involve devolving more public assets to the private sector it won't have much currency in Victoria.
Maybe there's a way we could transfer all BC's jobs to Germany.
jimmy_laroux
3 years ago
This is getting pathetic.
Luke Skywalker:
This is similar to the price for IPP power in 2000 and 1999, and now. So what is your point?
Okay, I have to ask again, what is your point? You seem to be pointless.
I'm not sure what your source is for this statement. If it's this article from the Vancouver Sun,
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=4b78b668-900b-4dc4-893a-aebb97cea462
it reads
It does not mention "rehab" anywhere. If you have a reliable source stating that 5.3 billion dollars is required to "rehabilitate the aging generating assets" of BC Hydro, please post it.
Actually, this money will cover new infrastructure and upgrades, for example
http://www.bchydro.com/planning_regulatory/projects/revelstoke_unit_5.html
http://www.bchydro.com/planning_regulatory/projects/mica_generating_station_upgrade.html
http://www.bchydro.com/planning_regulatory/projects/ruskin_dam_powerhouse_upgrade.html
Yes, the cost may rise in the future. I don't know what the impact will be on the cost of power generated by BC Hydro in the future, but I doubt it will increase the cost tenfold. If you think it will, please provide a source.
David Lewis
3 years ago
How about the issues you don't raise?
"Deal with the issues we raise not by flatulent weasel words and phrases, but by reasoned and documented argument."
The rhetoric on Rafe's side on this issue is not all well reasoned and well documented.
Corky Evans recently circulated a pamphlet to all his constituents and went on CBC speaking against "private power" saying we needed to stop all private power projects in the province because the fact that private power is being developed is something new, and we must have a big debate.
FortisBC supplies around 140,000 customers in the Southern Interior, including supplying the electric power to Corky's own home. This is a private company operating generating facilities that are in some cases more than 100 years old.
The entire company could have been bought by the NDP government for a fraction of the money it threw into the furnace when it built the Fast Ferries, had it chosen to continue on with the WAC Bennett policy of making hydropower public.
I suspect your side doesn't have a monopoly on reason and documentation, Rafe. I am not on your side, or that of Neufeld. I'm concerned about an issue you consistently avoid, that is more central to today's energy policy than private or public ownership is.
Gwynne Dyer has an interesting new book out: "Climate Wars". He has the perspective of a military man, but now he's gotten up to speed on global warming. This may have been because his military contacts are becoming intensely concerned, or perhaps he independently realized the issue was important as the news reports cascaded in over the last number of years indicating that the long forecast changes are happening far more quickly than anyone thought. Wherever his concern comes from, because of his experience in writing from a military point of view his writing is unique.
The threat that global warming presents to international security has never been publicly discussed in such an accessible format before, which is why I draw it to your attention.
If you are at all concerned about reason and documentation you will be interested in getting up to speed on the global warming debate.
G West
3 years ago
David Lewis
How about the California experience?
No comment on theiry record?
Please see the following because, the way I read it, the NDP hasn't been in power for almost 8 years.
I think there are more then enough mistakes and screw ups to deal with in the here and now, don't you?
I think California is up to speed - then again, maybe you missed this 'reason and documentation' -
http://www.next10.org/pdf/report_eijc/UCB_Energy_Innovation_and_Job_Creation_10-20-08.pdf
G West
3 years ago
erratum
that's 'their' record, sorry
zalm
3 years ago
I guess I'm a leftist now
I guess you are, Rafe.
Next thing you know, you'll be a "redistributionist" like Obama. Might be time for a comeback!
I'm kidding! On the radio, I can turn you off. In the Leg, I can't....
zalm
3 years ago
GWest & SIG
Let me add a simple solution to your list of improvements.
Put light switches in the common areas in major hospitals.
Children's and VGH both have new buildings with no light switches, and no access after hours to the lighting controller. In the case of Children's, the lighting controller were never installed in two of the buildings - ran out of funds. So the lights burn 24/7. For want of a little initiative on the part of the contractor and the hospital's clerk of the works and a couple of thousand dollars, we could reduce our night-time load by half a megawatt on a couple of sites that consume more than 10 MW peak every day.
But of course, the Children's Foundation has lots of money for fancy wood panelling and art-glass counters in their new offices in the new brightly-lit building.
I wouldn't recommend giving that foundation another dime. They're such a slush fund for political cronies it's astounding.
seth
3 years ago
luke
"BC Hydro, under NDP management, was paying IPP's 5.69 cents/kWh in 1999. Almost ten years ago!!!"
Yes under Glen Clark's "management" for a few small demo projects not 40 billion in projected taxpayer commitments to IPP's. Who is Glen working for now?
Yes Neocon dogmatism shines brightly when Luke writes.
clubofrome
3 years ago
SNERTY
No sense getting all emotional Snert, the facts are the facts. I could care less if you agree with me or not, but at least try to understand the facts. You lash out at what you don't understand by taking swipes at the messenger! This exposes your lazy habits. You'd rather have the TV do your research for you, and then your argument is so and so doesn't know what they're talking about!!! My God man you just proved my first post! If you can't be bothered doing the research yourself and proving the numbers, then you're going to be constantly at war with what is real and what is reported on TV. Like Frank says, with education like yours were going to continue to get political leaders that can't plan for the future, and therefore seal our fate, which is the collalse of this global society based on growth and greed.
Oh just one question.... You have a test tube full of food, and it takes 60 minutes to eat all the food, to empty the tube, based on doubling the amount you eat every minute. At what point on the clock is the food half gone?
freebear
3 years ago
Stone Age
SirJOhnA stated:
"if you want to get wealthy in anticipation of the socialist enviro-hordes winning the next election you may want to buy shares in candle and blanket making companies. you'll also need to make sure you have a good bicycle and a solar-powered bbq."
Are you sure it will be because of the 'socialist-enviro hordes getting elected, or
the rampant greed of the so called free market and the global financial meltdown being the reason for the need for blankets and candles in the near future?!
clubofrome
3 years ago
Socialist Enviro-Hordes....
Yes that's the underlying foundation of social democracy, get wealthy from our political struggles to over throw greedy capitalists. This can only be Ron Erwin in disguise again! Don't they check ID at the door here?
dave49
3 years ago
Luke on electricity price
If the NDP paid 5.69 cents almost ten years ago, costs have more than doubled since then.
Labour is up and materials such a copper, steel and concrete all increased substantially over the last three to four years. It's not just the busy economy here, but the growing demand in booming China was also driving up prices.
So, is 9 to 12 cents per KWh out of line?
northernspirits
3 years ago
BC's energy needs?
Look at the BC Hydro's 2008 Annual Report:
http://www.bchydro.com/etc/medialib/internet/documents/info/pdf/info_annual_report_2008.Par.0001.File.info_annual_report_2008.pdf
Specifically pages 55-57. Energy exported was 37,450 GWh, energy imported for trade was 34,020 GWh, and energy imported to satisfy domestic demand was 2,259 GWh. The result is they are now a net energy exporter!
Funny how they aren't talking about the new numbers. Its harder to convince people that we need more power in BC for them to try to justify site C when they are currently a net exporter!! I'm sure they would rather have people continue to believe we are a net importer.
Also interesting to note is that our domestic demand is less than last year when it was 5,698 GWh. In fact it has been steadily going down since 2005. (5,853 GWh in 2006 and 6,897 GWh in 2005). This shows our domestic demand is not increasing dramatically as some people have been suggesting but rather quite the opposite.
jimmy_laroux
3 years ago
One more thing...
Luke Skywalker:
This is in no way an analogy. The cost of upgrading these facilities is due to labour, materials, and costs due to disruption of service. In real dollars, labour and material costs are probably similar now as thirty years ago. This is true for the house as well. But the price of a house is not just a function of building costs, but also the perceived value of the land and other intangibles. There is no parallel for this in the case of hydro facilities.
G West
3 years ago
northern spirit
Thanks so much for posting those figures - I hadn't checked out the latest annual report yet.
It makes absolutely clear that BC needs a program of conservation and proper husbandry of its resources and generating capacity - perhaps modelled on the lines of the California example - and not a bunch of ruined rivers, spoiled fisheries and wealthy private contractors.
Why is it that this province seems incapable of learning from its mistakes?
snert
3 years ago
Cluby
And of course you have the facts to back that up or is that just an 'emotional' opinion.
G West
3 years ago
You're right for once snert
Club is mistaken in this case.
sirjohna is not the reincarnation of Ron Erwin/IAMC - but he is someone with an even more widespread reputation for a particular kind of commenting here.
sirjohna
3 years ago
what's that you say
what's that you say alcibiades?
tough to live that one down eh g?
G West
3 years ago
Live down?
Hardly, some of my very best work Elliot...you can read all about it here:
http://thetyee.ca/Views/Teacherdiaries/2007/02/27/BoyTrouble/
But, I only ever posted as G West or Alcibiades - for a very good reason.
How many aliases have you used El?
I've lost count. And in all that time the only thing positive you ever contributed was about sports.
Funny that!
snert
3 years ago
Cluby
Assuming one mouthful per minute
The last mouthful will be a really big one.
snert
3 years ago
G West
In order to help out clubofrome who has a penchant for facts maybe you could come up with some corresponding figures to show just where BC actually stands in comparison to California's energy saving initiatives.
Or are you just going to leave things at the philosophical equivalent of comparing an apple.
Who knows, California may even be catching up to us.
snert
3 years ago
G West
In order to help out clubofrome who has a penchant for facts maybe you could come up with some corresponding figures to show just where BC actually stands in comparison to California's energy saving initiatives.
Or are you just going to leave things at the philosophical equivalent of comparing an apple.
Who knows, California may even be catching up to us.
snert
3 years ago
OOPS!
Hit the button twice.
clubofrome
3 years ago
Mouthfull
Yes it would be. It would be half the test tube. That is the lesson of doubling time or exponential growth. Now, you've had 24 hours to solve the equation, what is the answer? At what point on the 60 minute clock is the food half gone?
Once you have the answer, the point would be to apply that same formula with regards to natural resources, land use policy and population in general. Not just the numbers, but the impact, or foot print if you will.
A great example would be the oceans and fisheries. A local one, the Fraser Valley. Growth in population and land use has doubled in the last 40 years. Can we afford to let it double again? Ho many people would that add to this area? How much more precious agricultural land would be develpoed into houses and asphalt?
So you see my fine feathered friend, this is a simple lesson to be learned and simple math tell us that growth will come to an end one day. We could try and plan for it, or we could let the disaster continue to unfold. What's wrong with saying lets try to maintain what we have built up to now? Roads and schools need repair, and you cant pay for everything by never ending growth.
The answer to the question is 59 minutes. it's quite obvious once you understand doubling time. Each minute food consumption doubles, there is 60 minutes worth of food, so it's half gone and there is one minute left in the supply. The consequences of exponential growth, like human population. So you say we'll get out of this mess with new technology and innovation. Well friend after 60 minutes the food is gone, and if by some miracle if you could even add one more test tube full of food, you still only get one more minute. After that minute you'll need 4 more test tubes, and so on...
Human population doubling times have been really kicked into over drive since the 1800's when we reached 1 billion as a species for the first time. We're approaching 7 billion now? In just under 200 years? No wonder more than 70% of the fish stocks are gone, with no chance to recover. People gotta eat... Looks like soylent green for the lot of you! Bon apetite!
G West
3 years ago
HARDLY
Hydro's own projections indicate conservation programs and sustainability efforts can achieve a level of consumption of 55GWh/year by 2027.
You might be surprised to learn that 55GWh was precisely the amount of energy the province used in 2007.
But we'll need to do a little more than distribute a few compact fluorescent bulbs to every household in the province.
It will also take more than a few fancy television ads featuring bright- faced youths, wistful vistas and ending with that pathetic 'best place on earth' © logo.
In the meantime, if you're really interested, why not read the Berkeley study I posted earlier. If you're really interested, you could also check the European experience - many countries on the continent have achieved 60% reductions in demand...
snert
3 years ago
G West
Once again with the hyperbole.
Where's the valid comparison. California and BC are two completely different environments.
I await your subtle nuances.
G West
3 years ago
What do you mean snert?
California has a much heavier summer electricity demand than BC does...and it gets about 85% of its electricity from in-state sources... California is committed to generating at least 20 percent of its electricity from renewable energy sources (such as solar, biomass, geothermal, and wind) by 2010.
Time sensitive pricing is one very simple way that many California cities are moving toward efficiencies and economies.
Many activities - clothes drying for example - can easily be switched to off peak times to take advantage of cheaper actual power generation costs at that time of day - computer controlled switches can be linked to the grid to manage usage a lot more effectively and cheaply than we do now. But consumers have to know that using power at certain times of the day will COST them more...they'll make the changes voluntarily and they won't have to install a lot of fancy Dan technology either.
BC has done little to move toward any of the many modalities that are current in most of Ca. Toyota, for example, at its manufacturing facility there generates 100% of the power it needs from green sources.
BC has some nice ads - and a few compact fluorescents - that's about where the parallels end.
It has nothing but subtle nuances - and a bunch of venture capitalists scrambling to ruin our rivers for a profit.
Sorry, but that's about it.
Hydro publishes a glossy bumpf book about a few of its friends who've done something unique with their own operations - I'm sure you can pick up a copy on some lawyer's office table - along with a few dated numbers of Macleans. Or maybe at your dentist's next time you're in for a filling.
snert
3 years ago
Cluby
Actually if you eat half in the first minute etc. you will theoretically never run out or so said the hare to the tortoise.
Can we afford the growth? It won't happen if we can't but I'll bet we can. Look at NY, LA, the large cities in China...most thrive in areas with far fewer resources than we have in BC. Will things remain the same? Most certainly not. Will some of us not like the changes? Most certainly. Can we stop them from happening? I doubt it.
WE have enough (solvable) problems of our own in BC to deal with without going global. That's what happens all the time with these articles hence the comment about needlessly going outside the box.
clubofrome
3 years ago
Just the facts Ma'am...
Most people to this day deny we have a significant problem. You can show them the facts, but just like the frog in the pot of boiling water, know one will jump until it's too late. What a shame too. We'll lose much diversity, in species and all things human worth saving, like music, art, and the capacity for compassion, all diminished because of stupidtiy and greed. Is extinction possible? Yes but unlikey, as we're a resourceful bunch, but you can forget society as we know it today. The age of growth and obscene consumption is nearing completetion, and many will die brutal deaths. That's just the facts. All unavoidable on our present path. We can only reduce the impact now, not eliminate it. Is there will to change? Cetainly not if people can't do simple math, and continue to debate truth versus TV reporting of the state of the union.
If you're a betting person, you gotta put your money on the status quo, I mean really! People give up luxury and sacrifice now for the future? Americans give up on Disney and Vegas? China and India all of a sudden abandon their western aspirations!? Ya sure.....
sirjohna
3 years ago
alcibiades
the big difference is that i have never used an alias to support my own arguments, like you did for an entire year, only quitting when you were outed, and then claiming that you were researching a novel. lmao, what a joke. the fact that you weren't banned for such a pathetic act is further evidence that you are on staff here at the bcfed's little propaganda project.
G West
3 years ago
Once again, you don't know what you're talking about el
Nobody 'outed' me - I simply disclosed that I'd used those two names for one year.
Anyone here with a bit of intelligence already knew that anyway - and, as I've told you at least a dozen times, I didn't break any rules and I have never had anything to do with the managment here or the BC Fed.
It was research for a book - not a novel and I'm still working on it.
You have a chapter, never fear.
I've posted my email address prominently for anyone who wants to contact me - ask around, lots of people have.
Why do you use all the funny names?
G West
3 years ago
and by the way
The invitation still stands open el - send me an email:
And really, you could make a positive contribution if you actually tried. I'm sure of it.
The schoolyard bully routine is a little threadbare by this time my friend.
sirjohna
3 years ago
more lies g. you were outed
you were outed when you accidentally signed off with the wrong name. [EDITED. IF YOU CONTINUE TO SPEND YOUR TIME ON THE TYEE PERSONALY ATTACKING OTHERS, YOU WILL BE BANNED. -MODERATOR.]
snert
3 years ago
Interesting comparison
California vs BC Hydro. Yup we'll look at this through a narrow field microscope.
You dredge up a huge report that breaks down just about everything and try to use a few CFLs to make your case.
You still have no idea of just what the actual differences are, do you?
snert
3 years ago
I don't think most are in denial.
I think they listen to the Henny Pennys of the planet forecasting doom and gloom no matter what we do (ring a bell) then they just say 'WTF I only go around once so why bother.'
Future Shock....oh, that's been used already.
G West
3 years ago
snert
Dredge up!
What are you talking about?
California's performance in conserving and limiting the growth of demand for electricity is well known. It also sets the standard for controlling and limiting the emission of greenhouse gases.
You're unaware of this.
Why am I bothering to try and get you to educate yourself?
BC Hydro does next to nothing in the field.
This is MY problem?
I don't think so.
snert
3 years ago
Dredged
California is in dire need as far as energy management is concerned. BC is not. There is nothing wrong with energy conservation programs as long as they are realistic. What applies in California may not apply here or may not even have to apply here. Please come up with a valid comparison?
G West
3 years ago
The point, snert
Is that the Campbell government has been setting its hair on fire about running short of hydro capacity; BC Hydro's own estimates confirm that by 2027 efficiencies and conservation will ensure that demand then will be no more than it is now - despite increases in population.
The point, quite simply, is that - by applying some or all of the efficiencies and conservation techniques in that report I 'dredged up' there is no need to dam any rivers, sell any streams to private businesses to enable them to make profits or to set our hair on fire.
We produce more than enough hydro now for our needs - this is a manufactured crisis that can be addressed more intelligently and more cheaply without any of Campbell's bird-brained sellout schemes.
This is not rocket science snert - it's common sense. Use some or all of the things we can learn from others and tell the gold rush boys from Campbell's fraternity to suck rocks.
And, that's the end of this conversation.
snert
3 years ago
For Now
What about later or have you figured out how to make time stand still?
G West
3 years ago
Snert
You're not paying attention...HYDRO's own estimates and projections say today's output will meet the demand of 2027...You can look it up yourself.
I posted the information above us here hours ago. All that needs to happen is to engage NOW with the problem in a way which is analogous to what California has already done. There is NO NEED TO CREATE EXCESS SHORT TERM CAPACITY FOR A FUTURE WHICH DOESN'T NEED IT...
How can I make it any clearer?
Now, as I said above, I'm done with this - if you haven't understood it by now, you're not going to.
Cheers.
snert
3 years ago
No Green Energy Expansion Then
I'm sure SharingIsGood will be happy.
We can increase our electrical usage to replace carbon based fuels. We need increased capacity to do that.
G West
3 years ago
snert
Did you miss this:
California is committed to generating at least 20 percent of its electricity from renewable energy sources (such as solar, biomass, geothermal, and wind) by 2010?
I hasten to add that the state is on target to achieve that goal right now...You should be able to discern what that means for British Columbia...any additional electrical requirements to power an imaginary fleet of electric cars is well within the parameters of that very achievable 20 percent - as sharing I'm sure understands very clearly.
clubofrome
3 years ago
Over your head...
Those that are unaware are unaware that they are unaware. Generally their minds are closed and they have your me first attitude... what was it you said? Oh ya:
"I think they listen to the Henny Pennys of the planet forecasting doom and gloom no matter what we do (ring a bell) then they just say 'WTF I only go around once so why bother."
If you fail to plan, you plan to fail... We gotta play it it one game at a time... What a friend we have in Jesus.... Watch your top knot! Watch yor'n....
That's how much sense you make Snert. I'm going back to my discussion with the brick wall now, at least it never says anything stupid. I see your act everyday you selfish little man. You're part of the me first generation. You can't wait your turn in line, you don't respect others space, you tailgate, speed and otherwise put other lives in daner by being a careless, reckless, thoughtless and pointless entity. You are all about you first and community last, and you will go extinct. Please do not pass on your genes.
snert
3 years ago
G West
Take the blinkers off. There are far more things that can be done with electricity than "power an imaginary fleet of electric cars" I can't believe that you are so blind.
snert
3 years ago
Cluby
Well carry on your discussion with the brick wall. I'm certain the two of you will enjoy each others company. You seem to be birds of a feather.
BTW I still don't think as many people are in denial as you believe there is but that's just MHO. Who am I to challenge your wall.
clubofrome
3 years ago
De-nile
A river in....
Better check those numbers on those two recent elections. I believe Nader got 1% of the vote, the rest of the votes went to who? Same in Canda, but Green faired better than Nader by 6%. NDP could also be considered a vote for social change, but like the states the vast majority voted for status quo. But like you said, they're not in denial...
Just how many of us enlightened folks do you think there are? Or are we the silent majority who just can't be bothered to vote?
G West
3 years ago
Excuse me!
I was responding to YOUR post. This one:
We can increase our electrical usage to replace carbon based fuels. We need increased capacity to do that.
That's what a CONVERSATION or DEBATE is all about.
The fact of the matter is, as Clubofrome so astutely observed; the brick wall is much more communicative and forthcoming...
I know you love American agribusiness multinationals, and I know they run on carbon - but that's no reason to pretend that there aren't alternatives - and ones that are well within the reach of our own skills, intelligence and resourcefulness.
BC Hydro does NOT need any new dams at the moment.
The evidence for that is crystal clear: It needs to conserve and manage its resources effectively. It may bug you that California is grappling now with a problem you're not prepared to recognize and are prepared to ignore but that doesn’t make our government’s irresponsibility any less profound.
That's your business. Your lack civility belies an emptiness of purpose and, quite frankly, a selfishness and narcissism that simply can't be sustained.
I wouldn't just call it denial; I'd suggest it is purblind stupidity to not recognize we are on a collision course with destruction. There’s an interesting documentary from a couple of years ago I’d recommend you try to see. It’s titled “Maxed OUT”.
snert
3 years ago
Make up your mind.
I have not denied anything. Both you and Cluby had better not give up your day jobs if you actually have one because you are both poor mind readers and even worse fortune tellers.
You seem to think that by embarking on a California style purge all our problems will be solved. You are wrong. We must go further but unfortunately you and your ilk would far rather curl up in the foetal position and whimper about how we are all doomed.
Now if you can't figure out what we can do with increased electrical output then there is truly no hope for you, non at all
Spoken like true follower of self reflection watching.
BTW Toyota does what?
http://apps3.eere.energy.gov/greenpower/buying/customers.shtml?page=1&companyid=250
They don't generate it. They buy it.
"May 2000 - Toyota Motor Sales USA reaffirmed its commitment to green power by signing a contract with GreenMountain.com to purchase 100% renewable energy to power several of its California-based operations. Under the agreement, Toyota will purchase approximately 40 million kWh of renewable energy, with 5% of the power to come from new wind resources. Toyota became one of the first large companies to commit to green power shortly after the California market opened to competition. The GreenMountain.com deal replaces an earlier green power purchase agreement with Edison Source, which stopped marketing green power in November 1999.
"
http://apps3.eere.energy.gov/greenpower/buying/index.shtml
"What is Green Power?
The term "green power" generally refers to electricity supplied in whole or in part from renewable energy sources, such as wind and solar power, geothermal, hydropower, and various forms of biomass. Increasingly, electricity customers are being given electricity supply options, either as retail power markets open to competition or when their regulated utilities develop green pricing programs. More than 50% of retail customers in the United States now have an option of purchasing a green power product directly from their electricity supplier. In addition, consumers can support renewable energy development through the purchase of green energy certificates."
The bolding is mine.
G West
3 years ago
So what?
If Toyota weren't buying it, it wouldn't have been generated.
You still don't have a point - the advantage British Columbia has over California is that it doesn't have to deal with private power producers whose purpose is making a profit...proper policies can be adopted for the public good - and not just the convenience of big business.
Why do you think WAC Bennett took over BC Electric in the first place?
All I'm trying to show is that BC hasn't really even 'tried' to approach electricity generation and supply from the point of view of doing much more than responding to demand and rewarding Campbell's friends by creating another 'market' and profit centre.
I think BC Hydro is perfectly capable of offering consumers options too - things such as choosing to utilize hydro power at optimal times and in ways which make it more sustainable and efficient through intelligent pricing and monitoring.
I mentioned all of this several times and you simply ignored it and played silly buggers.
As far as competition in the electricity generation and supply business is concerned, I'm not interested - electricity is a basic good, much better provided in ways that don't involve agencies like Enron.
You can ask Californians (and Ontarians) about that.
As for the snide comments, if you don't like them - don't use them but If you do use cheap shots, expect to get them back.
Show some respect and intelligence and you'll find the same thing in my comments - behave like a smart ass and I'll respond in kind. Or I'll ignore you. Your Fox News tactics are showing again.