Hi everyone

Welcome to our forum. The comment thread is now open.

A cupla predictions: The others will work hard to tie Harper to the US meltdown, and if he's not convincing in response, there goes the majority.

Two: Dion or Layton (or both) are gonna figure out a way to shift from 'I'm the next prime minister' which no one believes, to 'cast your strategic vote for me'.

What do others think? What does Harper have do accomplish tonight to keep the majority dream alive?

Plenty o' choice

What a night for us political junkies. Canadian talking heads and American vice-presidential candidates seeing who will have the last gaffe. Woo-hoo. If things drag, I'm going to be tuning in to the Cubs game.

Harper's challenge

...is to avoid the paralyzed smirk he wore in the French debate.

Time to rumble!

Thanks for setting this up David - I think this will make the debate more interesting for all of us - and we can gather with a much larger and diverse crowd than usual!

Bill Tieleman

Harping on Harper

Harper has to present himself as a steady, prudent and non-scary leader who can be trusted with a majority.

True confessions

I have to admit to wanting to watch the veeps. I have the same motivation as many Nascar fans — there's always a chance for a big crackup in which no one gets hurt but a pile of debris is sprayed all over the place.

Harper's goals

David - Harper wants to stay calm, pump up Jack Layton and make Stephane Dion irrelevant as much as possible.

Harper has to also try and find some way to damp down Duceppe's resurgence in Quebec, which he has hoped would help deliver his majority.

But I believe the Conservatives will still win a majority as the 905 area code outside Toronto switches from Liberal red to Tory blue.

Interesting

Interesting change in attire for Ms May.

It must have been evident that her costume put her at a disadvantage last night.

Parlez-vous

Do you think Dion could have asked to have simultaneous translation for the Engish-language debate?

Personal attacks continue...

...and Stephen Harper got started on Stephan Dion early...

Harper takes first shot at Dion

Elbows are up already, with Harper attacking Dion for allegedly changing his platform last night during the French debate.

Jabberwocky

Harper delivers the first jab, accusing Dion of panic in last night's debate by unveiling new platform policies.

Harper goes on attack...

...with first statement.

Layton hits talking points: big corporations and working families in first statement. His work here is done.

Dion needs to show some anger and backbone.

Duceppe: Harper = Bush

Didn't take long to make that point.

Invisible Man? Harper believes in the Invisible Man?

Oh - it was "invisible HAND" - Duceppe is trying to help out Dion as another incomprehensible speaker!

Three things...

...I'll be looking for:

PHOTO OP --- Will there be a moment that can shift this race? Not likely, but one of these leaders might swing for the fences.

DINNER --- Who would I want to bring home for Thanksgiving Dinner? Who do I just like?

LEADER --- Who do I want to lead Canada? Just as I don't want the same qualities in my banker as I do in my ski buddies, likewise I want more leadership from a PM than from a dinner guest

Stephane Dion fires back...

...at least he's got his dukes up. Better late than never? Or maybe not.

Duceppe

He's at it again - Harper's worst nightmare is the fact that he knows the Bloc is gaining on him and Duceppe has his number on the ties with Bush.

Now he's going to try and distinguish the US from the Canadian economies....

The smirk returns

Harper responds to Dion with a rictus sardonicus.

Complimenting each other

After last night's request, and pretty unconvincing effort, do you think they spent part of today practicing their insincere compliments for each other>

Harper fails

Still has the stuff-eating grin.

May is wading in but is she over her head?

I guess not, because Harper doesn't get to respond to her "no platform" jibe.

Incompetent???

Layton swings hard with an upper-cut. Wow.

Couture

At the risk of being catty, Elizabeth May seems to have pried the sea urchin from her throat. Sure was distracting in the Franch-language debate.

Harper-Layton - both want to engage each other

...and leave Dion out of it, because it works for both of them.

Babel

Who keeps running Dion's statement through the Babel translation service? WTF is he trying to say?

Hawthorn catty? Say it ain't so!

Can't wait to hear what you say about Dion's jibberish.

To your left . . .

I liked the question last night where the leaders were asked to say something nice about the person to their left. It through them a bit . . . Some obviously didn't come expecting to have to compliment their opponents.

condescending?

Is it just me, or does Harper come off as condescending?

Dion provokes another sneer

Dion's tone and content are pretty good--and reproachful. Harper expresses passive aggression.

I like the Canadian format better than the US one

Palin has exactly the same talking points as McCain did...boring!

Blogo-rama

I think that there are several other accusations against Harper's government:

1. Did not jail all the perpetrators and accessories to the crime of stealing half a billion dollars from the taxpayers, giving it to the sponsored thieves in Quebec by a Liberal government of Paul Martin et al.

2. Did not stop fraudulent alarmists accusing Canadians of global warming and Canadian pigs and cows for exhaling foul odors and methane from both ends. Burping and farting should be punishable by death at the slaughter house!

3. Accusing very useful gas, that is CO2 of being dangerous to glacials and polar bears. There were periods of much higher concentration of it hundreds of years ago.
In fact many scientists, not bribed by UN and Russian oligarchs, predict ice age coming soon.

4. Not forcing those alarmists and their UN mafia bosses to plug undersea volcanoes with their fat a....s, as they produce much more CO2 and methane than all the activities of man and animals together.

5. Not disbanding Human Wrongs Tribunals and other kangaroo courts causing embarrassment to Canada and hurting law abiding citizens who are mistaken that there is a freedom of speech in Canada.

Hawthorn doesn't disappoint!

Dion needs a Star Trek Universal Translator! Beam me up Stephane!

From passive aggression to defensiveness

Harper's response to Dion is stressed and May takes a shot at him. Smirk alert!

regional preference?

May attacks the PM on regional preference - and Jack throws out the "cold & calloused side". Maybe not a mortgage crisis, but an economic crisis nonetheless ...

Jack is swinging for the fences - can he connect?

So far early in this debate that last Layton-Harper set to is the clip. But lots more to come.

Harper: The fundamentals are sound

No housing crisis in Canada...the hole's in the other end of the lifeboat.

Rae of sunshine

How different this debate — and campaign — would be had Bob Rae won the Liberal leadership. ... I finally understood something Dion said. He was talking laissez-faire economics. I got the laissez-faire part.

Here we go - Duceppe ties the economy to the environment

How's that investment in the auto industry working Steve?

No biting?

Since the rules don't prohibit kicking, biting and eye-gouging, I think I've got a strategy for Dion to look tougher...

Well as an average working

Well as an average working person the tax free savings account really helps me. I can't even afford to max my RRSPs. That sounds like tax loop hole for the rich.

Harper is the only one who could be an FM disc jockey

The deepest voice does help, for sure, and especially because Duceppe and Dion are disadvantaged speaking in their second language.

yes, condescending

I don't think it's just you--he does it constantly.

Another smirk

Harper doesn't like May - terribly incomforatable with her at his elbow...

Layton likes May?

. . . At least when she criticizes Mr. Harper . . .

manufacturing sector

Good point for Dion – and strong. Need to bolster value-added manufacturing.

To get back to an earlier point by Harper, if Canada's economy is shining compared to that of the States (as it is), use it as a position of negotiating strength on trade!

May makes good point about jobs

Losing creative jobs for service jobs.

Duceppe takes jab about the plagiarized speech. I think i'm voting Bloc.

big difference

going from the line in Oshawa to the line at Tim Horton's - do people in the patch get that difference?

Ganging up

Will the Globe weep for the four opponents ganging up again on poor Steve? But it's the natural strategy, and again the smirk provides thin defence.

debate

SO far my vote has not changed

layton howler!!!

Canadians are working 180 extra hours per month??? An 8-hour day, five days per week = 216 hrs per month....

Guess Jack can't add?

my vote has not changed yet

my vote has not changed yet either and doubt it will.

Duceppe would be a better liberal leader than Dion

He's lecturing again.

From smirk to whine

Harper's tone is killing him. Who ran his rehearsals?

mcmartin howler

Actually it's 176 hrs per month.

McMartin can't add.

Layton snipes at Dion

The gang of four breaks up as Layton bangs at Dion before swinging back to Rictus Sardonicus.

Nobody checking out the US debate

Biden seems to be making his points effectively and Palin seems scripted

i just want to slap him!

Harper is looking at Jack like he's about to start his rebuttal with the phrase "Jack, you silly little boy ..." and thank you Steve Paikin for getting to the point.

Well done Will

Nice save

Query

I like the question by Steve Paikin regarding the loss of manufacturing jobs.

Notice the difference in addressing each other

It's clearly a strategy - Harper calls the other leaders by their first name while Dion, Layton, May and Duceppe call him "Mr. Harper"/

Harper wants to come across as an "ordinary" guy.

Whoops - and there goes Duceppe - "I will ask you again for the turd time". Bring out the puffins!

"Economy is changing"

Harper: lose some jobs, win some jobs. Duceppe hits back for the "turd time." May: Bring back the manufacturing and pulp & paper sector. This is Green policy from a tree-hugger?

Green pulp and paper . . .

So May is talking about bringing the pulp and paper industry back. This is a party based on the environment, and she's taking pains to sound like an industry booster. Hmmm . . .

No raw log export...nice.

Jack Layton lands one there in my books.

Pulp friction?

Um... The Green Party is pushing for pulp and paper production?

Of course those jobs are gone for good

This is silly. Of course lost manufacturing jobs are gone for good.

Harper is right about trading losing old-sector jobs for new-sector jobs.

The question should go to what Canada is doing to incubate new-sector jobs.

"We need to bring the pulp and paper sector back."

Looks like May is a big fan of the forestry industry...who knew?

Pardon?

Talentuous? Did he say talentuous?

The 'turd' party . . .

. . . Hey Bill, wasn't the running Air Farce joke that Chretien called the NDP the turd party?

Thank you, Jack!

incentives for value-added production AND Green alternatives!

Tie that in to reimbursable tax credits and tell me how it works. (Harper hasn't been able to do that yet)

Ken doll

Okay - I'm focussed on Hair just now:
Harper looks a lot like Barbie's "Ken doll" and Elizabeth May did not make it to the Hairdresser today. My first name is Ken and my hair looks more like Lizzy's than Harper's
Guess who I feel more comfortable with
Hint: Not harper

you're right Monty

But none of them have the balls to say it, not even Elizabeth.

The economic portion of the debate...

... 4 leaders who want to raise taxes and care for 6% of unemployed Canadians.

... and 1 leader who boasts of $200 billion of tax cuts and speaks for those 95% of Canadians who have a job.

Can't see how that hurts the Tories.

Jack is certainly getting into his face

And now we get another lecture from Dion - and Harper squirms as Dion brings out Flaherty's mis-speaking - whoops Steve's losing control...

Dion on manufacturing

Sincere tone, and the answer is more Smirkorama. Harper: "Misregulation in the US while we invest." Gropes for where he's investing, comes up with dead industries like forestry.

Are you policies working? "Not going into a recession." Yes, we are going into denial.

McMartin's numbers problem could mean...

....that he's actually a New Democrat!

I don't agree with Crawford - Harper is setting exactly the right tone - he isn't being provoked into a temper tantrum and looks like he's being fair in an unfair fight. The other leaders have to watch out that they don't appear constantly shrill in attacking him.

And Duceppe's clip - "The Bloc Quebecois is the only party with a Buy Canadian policy!!!!" Too funny!

dynamism

Stephen Harper looks as if he could use a coffee – or a protein drink.

I'm on drugs. The Greens are

I'm on drugs. The Greens are calling for a renewal of the pulp-and-paper industry and the Quebec separatists are promoting a Buy Canadian policy. What next? The Liberals calling for ethics in government, the Conservatives calling for higher taxes to eliminate poverty, and the NDP saying big business has the best answers.

TSX down 800, economy just fine

Toronto's benchmark stock index closed down more than 800 points today.

Will no one challenge Harper on his claims that Canada's economy is fine?

Check out the Us Debate

It's dead boring - much prefer the Canadian one

kinds of job

But Will, there's a big difference between a job working for Ford and then going to walk the floor at the Home Despot. The big money jobs in manufacturing have shifted into smaller jobs in service, except in Alberta - and there are tons of split families where Dad has left Mom & the kids at home and headed for Ft. McMoney. Can that be good?

Billy

Not just a New Democrat, but a future NDP finance minister!

On the attack

After May was allowed into the debate, a senior Green said to me he hoped she'd present what was best about the Greens, not just attack Harper. How's she doing so far?

Table scraps

There's one prime minister at the table and four yapping pups.

the sweater!

Jack swings for the sweater! It's over the fence!

Complacent

Harper is coming off like he'd rather be at home watching TV. Like he doesn't care about the job, or that everybody is wasting his time.

I say let the comentator let them go and just descent into a yell fest, cause wow, Mr. Stephen Potato Head would be useless in that.

Dion's tone

He's staying pretty calm. Good move. Maybe he remembers Gordon Wilson's role in the 1991 BC provincial debate.

Harper patronizes the rest are believing what they're saying. Layton: "Is your platform under your sweater?"

I'd rather be at home watching TV...

I'd rather be at home watching TV...

...oh, wait, I am....

Hallucinogens, Tom

Very funny! It's always been "musical chairs," as far as policy positions go.

Jack Layton has clearly been

Jack Layton has clearly been coached to speak in a calm and measured fashion, as he has done earlier in the campaign. In this debate, he can't help but return to barking.

Thirty-three minutes in, first mention of Tommy Douglas.

Layton also notes drunken sailor Bob Rae is now a Liberal.

Peter Lahay

Hate to say this, but I think Ms. May has done a top notch job so far. Not been a fan of hers, nor do I expect to be however ...

Round one to Harper

Harper strolled out of the economic segment looking calm and unruffled. None of the others appears as Prime Ministerial. I think we score the first round to Harper by a narrow margin.

Hey hey hey

No sectarian comments about sailors. We can't afford beer anymore.

May goes populist

Interesting that given a chance to address any aspect of the economy, she goes for the blue collar audience by hammering on shipyard jobs sent overseas. She must assume the Green brand says enough to enviros and the base needs expanding beyond that. She's picking her chances to go at Layton's base

Speaing Dionese

Bonsoir...

The longer Dion talks the easier it is to understand what he's saying... That alone might be a win for him... Fascinating to see his passion when he gets to talk green.

"Economy going further south..." Or further South? I think Paikin made a funny...

Harper's calling everyone at the table, "you guys?" I think "youse guys" with a tough Bronx accent would go better with that grin.

Colour back in his cheeks

Harper's obviously anticipated this segment.

I'd like to see incentives for green changes to infrastructure. More bike highways!

Their lips are moving but...

Have decided to watch the first half of the debate without sound. This is based on the successful prediction of the 2001 election by the non-english speaking father of a friend who watched the debate and called it 100%. Of course the 2001 provincial election was the most predictable in Canadian history, but really the guy was romanian and had no way of knowing all that.

Although it is sorely testing my touch typing skills, the debate already seems won. Based on the current flurry of hand gestures, bobs and general pointing of fingers (did you see that four finger moment aimed at Harper just now??), slow and steady Harper will most definitely win this debate.

Starting to realize how Bush won two elections. Just move sloooooowly.

On the plus side, I am happy to see that Elizabeth got the memo. For the 2008 election at least, sweaters are best left in the tickle trunk.

a

Duceppe on climate change

Harper's about "balancing" environment and economy. Duceppe points out that meeting Kyoto requirements would be an appropriate start . ..

. . . Why doesn't the Bloc run out here?

go Elizabeth - layton's

go Elizabeth - layton's gotta stop dissing dion focus on harper.

2020 targets - please. Kyoto now!

Kyoto first reference - not Dion's dog - and another "turd"

And I'm sorry but Duceppe said "turd" again - it's like watching Basil Fawlty and Manuel all over again - I just love it no matter how many times I've seen it!

I'll give points to the first leader who says "Why are you hitting me Mr. Fawlty?"

Next question

Environment versus economic growth?

Dion: Competitiveness = more production with less energy.

Harper: Shot at carbon tax. Balance growth with environmentalism. Pffpptt.

Layton: No one else think Harper's right--demonizes big polluters whose taxes will pay for good stuff. Sure.

Duceppe: Go with Kyoto. Carbon exchange. And give each province its own plan. Sure.

May: Cites Clinton--economic opportunity in climate change. Sweden and Germany are our models.

Well noted David.

Thats exactly what i was thinking. It also makes it more difficult for some of us to make the right wing extention arguement on the Greens as well.

I don't care who "appears" prime ministerial...

...I want someone who's going articulating progressive policies. Sorry, Monte. I give the first round to Layton, and May is surprising me a little.

Good question Andrew...

And he buys Canadian too

Minor point but

May credited Clinton with the line about
the climate crisis being the single biggest economic opportunity in the history of the planet.

I thought that was Gore's catch phrase?

How Swede it is

Sweden is Elizabeth May's nirvana, too. Of course the Dippers love that democratic socialist utopia.

"Don't believe this man"

Dion shoots. He scores...

It's not an academic tone

So far, Dion is sounding like a grownup more than the others.

under 20K should pay no tax

under 20K should pay no tax at all!

Dion's English

I saw Dion at UVic a few years ago. In person he managed to make himself understood. It wasn't pretty, and there was the occasional bizarre construction, but I think he got across what he was trying to say. But of course he's no Justin Trudeau . . .

Targets at least as stringent as the national targets?

That's not difficult!

Round one to Monte

I'm with Monte. I think Harper took the first round. He is clearly the prime minister. The others are mere critics. Which is how they'll end up in Opposition.

how can the average person

how can the average person follow all this

gotta say, sophisticated stuff

they're all debating nuances of carbon policy -- cap and trade, carbon tax, carbon intensity targets -- just that it's an area of debate puts the Canadian federal leaders far ahead of the US discussion: who's the bigger patriot? Who's an elitist and who's just folks, etc.

Cool Canada is smart, too

"...right out of the playbook of Exxon..."

Jack is finally letting Jack be Jack.

omg...the tar sands in a national debate

ok, i cheated and turned on the sound to see why Dion, Layton and May all got so animated all of a sudden...

Gas bags

An awful lot of emissions around this table.

Kyoto good for . . .

. . . May, Duceppe and Layton.

By criticizing how we haven't met our commitments, May shows up both the Conservatives and the Liberals.

new drinking game?

Every time one of them calls Harper a liar, we take a sip?

Should find out soon

If there's a deal under the table between Dion and May....

"...richer, greener, fairer..."

A good line from Dion. Has he been using that on the stump?

Unlike our neighbours

Not only are all these leaders capable of intelligent discussion of complicated issues, but they also do so en francais.

CitizenAndrea has it right - no sound often telling

Will McMartin and I watched the 2004 presidential debate together and both of us agreed that Bush was just killing John Kerry - by watching their body language and gestures. Bush was extremely inclusive while Kerry was Patrician.

Harper is winning despite some good hits from Layton, Duceppe, Dion and May.

Fraud!

Last word - very effectively - to May

Amendment to drinking game...

If anyone mentions a sweater vest again, everyone drinks.

Tar sands, etc.

How do we enforce regulations for greenhouse gas emissions and other environmental threats in this country when much of the extraction of our natural resources is in the hands of foreign interests?

Does fraud count for a sip?

Does fraud count for a sip?

Hic hic hooray

Shannon: May called Harper a fraud. Do I get to chug?

maybe it's just my TV

But I'm finding it somewhat distracting ... Dion looks like he has tanorexia. Harper has been watching tapes of Dubya - talk slow, small smile, lean on the arm, ingratiating. Let's see what they have to say about doctors ...

Doctoring an answer

Doctors are a provincial responsibility, no?

additional to drinking game

If Harper says "Let me be clear ..."

Richer etc.

Google news doesn't show "richer, greener, fairer" up from Dion, but it does show it coming from Liberal candidate Joyce Murray. Ubyssey describes it as a party slogan:

http://news.google.ca/news/url?sa=t&ct=ca:c/0-0&fp=48e57c6f37ccddb7&ei=wnnlSMfDKYH8gwPixbmeAQ&url=http%3A//www.ubyssey.ca/%3Fp%3D4546&cid=1252571797&usg=AFQjCNGvD5gb0noavljFvHuCc7iFk5Fhpw

Shannon - does "fraud" count? I took a sip anyway

I think every pejorative deserves a drink.

Duceppe

He's right on about the feds failing Aboginal health.

All direct insults

Deserve a swig. We'll need to drink more if Harper takes a majority.

A brief word from that other debate...

Does anyone know why they are tracking uncommitted Ohio voters split by gender?

623 hits

And if you search "richer, fair, greener" without the quotes, you turn up 623 hits.

Harper

Why doesn't someone confront him on the cuts to research capacity and threats to the independence of government scientists.

Whoa! Harper whacks Jack hard!

I'm the only leader who uses public health care! The Shouldice Clinic trip by Layton.

Tommy Douglas resurrected for third or fourth time by Jack. Let him rest.

Clinical

Harper delivers a zinger and/or cheap shot about Layton having gone to a private clinic. ... I think it's pretty clair Paikin is no Layton fan. He's interrupted him at least twice (I know the feeling) and just now brought the debate to a halt to allow Harper to explain his zinger.

Layton's attack persona

I note that commenters are saying Harper is coming off as a calm leader, others not. But after all, they are all vying to be oppositon leader -- and so far Layton looks like the one who would make every day tough for the Conservatives in Parliament, to me. He's winning the rehearsal we're all really watching.

Somebody prepped Dion well

Anyone else notice that he speaks directly at the camera -- in effect, directly to the audience. He's managing to create a level of intimacy that somehow overcomes his poor English. He's making us listen to him hard, and politely, because he's speaking one-to-one.

It's a really smart way to handle that problem.

hooray for May on healthcare

thank god she's got NAFTA on the stage.

Elizabeth May warming up to 9-11 with NAFTA?

Over-reaching on health care in my view. "Would you nationalize all private health care clinics?" Yikes! She didn't see that one coming.

Steve Paikin...

... deservers Kudos for making Harper admit he was taking a shot at Layton. Paikin is doing a pretty good job of both egging these leaders on, while at the same time reining them in.

A sip every time Paikin speaks, Shannon?

ReformaTories

Um... Shouldn't somebody mention the policies of the party Steve helped found and the fact that this ain't your daddy's Tory party, nevermind Joe Clark or Brian Mulroney's?

Is Elizabeth May really the first person to mention Harper's gig with the Citizen's coalition?

Gritty

I forgot Dion was at the table. Does he not lead the Natural Governing Party?

There it is again

'If I could just be clear..."

can we drink on 'that' the next time he says it?

Nat'l Citizen's Coalition

Layton mentioned it earlier.

Round two to May

I award round two to May.

She shaped the agenda on both carbon and health care, hit Grits and Tories equally, smartly stayed out of the "I never did it" silliness, and spoke with authority about threats to the health system.

Her best moment, spoken to Harper: "You job... was to destroy our health care system."

I'm a bit surprised none of the others picked up on that.

Why is Dion afraid of the Reformatory past?

And Jack takes up the cause of aboriginal health ... Harper won't touch that with a barge pole? Like Dion's discussion of catastrophic drug plan.

Artists Vote!!!

the wayback machine

There are some amazing quotes on the record by Harper disparaging Canada's welfare safety net and universal health care, etc. He said that stuff before he was a candidate. Which candidate will bring one of them up and ask Harper if he is waiting to get a majority in order to reveal his true colours?

So far they are letting him patiently explain how well the Candadian welfare state is humming along under his guidance.

David has a good point on Layton

Layton is positioning himself well as Opposition Leader while Dion appears more like an academic colour commentator - okay, so I'm biased!

Arts . . .

. .. how long until Layton mentions how many CBC alumnae he has running with his party . ..

David has a good point on Layton

Layton is positioning himself well as Opposition Leader while Dion appears more like an academic colour commentator - okay, so I'm biased!

Bubbles

Duceppe says art is the soul of a nation. My Canada includes the Trailer Park Boys.

The creative class invoked in a national debate!

Dorothy, we aren't in Kansas, that's for sure.

Broken kinetic record

Starting to understand how a non-english speaking romanian could call our elections so easily by watching a debate.

The body movements of these five are like salmon coming home to spawn. Once in a while there's a swell of excitement, presumably based on the content they are discussing (will be turning on the sound to find out if this hypothesis is true), but generally their basic persona seems ridiculously predictable no matter the question.

The piano man!

I'm glad Harper doesn't play the organ...

May won health care?

What about the stuff about nationalizing private clinics? Harper had her on the run and she didn't give a clear answer.

Hey everybody, Steve's gonna play the piano!

Don't ya just wish you could be there when everyone gathers round to sing and clap along to Harper playing the boogie woogie

Harper doesn't look at the camera when talking arts

e's looking away like it's not sincere but I suspect he does it because he IS being sincere and it isn't comfortable!

Harper

he's playing the family card again when 1/5 kids lives in poverty. So much for tax credits!

(snickers)

Layton is positioning himself well as Opposition Leader while Dion appears more like an academic colour commentator.... but it's too bad Layton likes to bash our Can corps that grow our GDP!

- okay, so I'm biased!

The Arts

Harper is really vulnerable on this one

Dion still doing well

During a quick break for dinner, I listened on CBC radio and kept noticing Dion's calm voice. Looks like a strategy and one he's sticking to. I think it's a good one.

Artsy fartsy

The arts cut is a fiasco for the Conservatives in Quebec. ... The Conservative tax credit of $500 for every kid covers about half a school year's worth of lessons. As the father of two teens, I saw whoop de ding. Although I guess it would buy me some beer and popcorn.

Conservatives are barbarians?

Is this a question?

Musical chairs

Can't wait for the music to stop!

Oooh...

Dions access is thick though eh?

Are Conservatives barbarians?

Come on... Let's see if anyone says yes...

Layton is doing an amazing

Layton is doing an amazing job highlighting the errors and wrongs of Harper and his government.

Idiot question

Idiot question from Paikin about Conservatives being barbarians when it comes to the arts.

self interest

Woo hoo! No taxes on the first $20,000 I earn as a writer!

Damn, I could buy a double-wide.

Cough, hack, choke

Make that Dions accent!! (throat is far too dry)

Monte - are you the Fourth Trailer Park Boy?

If so, Tom Hawthorn will interview you!

re-allocation?

Actually, money has NOT been reallocated to programs - and he just admitted that programs were "abolished" - he doesn't know what's been cut or why? The increase in the budget to the Canada Council was in the works way before; it's all ideological.

Tight times . . .

Harper says he moved money around, out of some arts grants and into other unnamed ones, due to tight times. Tell me again where the surplus he inherited went . . .

body language shift

Harper is now on the defensive - backed up from the table, hands apart ...

My kid's more artistic than yours

Harper on his daughter was truly retch-worthy. Layton brought up the miserable pay of artists.

Are Cons barbarians? Dion doesn't rise to the bait. Duceppe brings in ideological decisions; Harper's supply of smirks is inexhaustible.

Harper brags about more money for the "Canadian" Council. What's "more effective" use of money.

May: Harper doesn't hate the arts, but he uses arts funding to control politics.

Harper's position on the Arts

Committees deciding on what has 'artistic' merit; on travel for foreign exhibtions...May is kicking butt on Harper's meanspiritedness - And Paikin interrupts again.

Arts

Soul of the nation. Good point for Duceppe

Creative class comment! Good for May! and the protection of our Canadian identity!

Arts is not a luxury. It is a necessity! It's the glue that holds a nation the size of ours, with its vast and diverse regions, together in an understanding of our national identity! It's more than piano lessons, although it is absolutely that too.

Yes, Mr. Layton! Let's support all aspects of the Arts.

Thank you M. Dion for your prudent and measured response to Harper's comments.

I don't want a conservative in government deciding which cultural programs should be supported. Harper's shown he cares not a whit for anything other than his piano playing.

to haolemoviegirl

Harper moved money from arts to sports, but still calls it culture. These allow him to claim the culture budget rose.

Andrew

Harper surplus in 2006-07 was $13.7 billion, and last year $9.6 billion.

Not evident that surpluses have gone anywhere.

Duceppe gets to the bottom line again

Harper wouldn't release the report - and he refuses to answer the question....what else is new....

Harper has Canadian flag pin...

...he must have had some American campaign advice.

Dion: More fun in Canada

Dion offers a promise of wealth beyond the dreams of avarice.

See ya CBC

Just think how much money will be saved when a majority Conservative government sells the CBC cheaply to Global.

God forbid

It's an empty husk - but it's better than Global

OK, once you turn on the sound...

...the american debate is much more interesting.

Layton & Liz are double teamin'

Oooh, oh, Dion made me feel warm there for a moment. Lol!!! Increases in the arts from Harper!! lmao!!

Oh, here we go... we like this, we spend money. We don't like that, we save money... but we never call that censorship, no, no no!!!

Harper is a barbarian.

God is the media going to make Hey with that tag!

the end of fun

Dion has been effective in pointing to pleasure offered by the arts as essential to life and the arts and worthy of support. This goes nicely with Layton nailing Harper on censorship.

Layton on film industry

Good point about Vancouver too--thousands of people here work in movies and video.

i thought violent crime was down

Liz should have said "if it bleeds, it leads" ...

What if Global is for sale?

What if Global is for sale?

Will

Then why is he pleading tough times, limited resources?

Criminal

Dion hopes he has pronounced a citizen's name correctly. If so, it'll be his first correct pronunciation of the night.

Gun lovin' Harper gets tough on crime!!

Hmmm... property crime. 14 year olds kickin' fences over? Hang 'em high!

... he's only the piano player...

Isn't that just matching the same program that's already in place for kids involved with sports?

crime in campaign funding

Let's toughen up the sentencing for parties that manipulate their funding mismanagement

Andrew

Because US is heading for severe recession -- if not worse -- and given that they're our largest trading partner, significant likelihood of it spilling across the border.

Besides, Conservatives sometimes like to cut just for the sake of cutting. Can I have another sip?

Rate of violent crime

Thank you for challenging that fallacy at the outset, Ms. May!

Inadequate gun regulation - increased gun-related crime. Duh!

Prevention

Good on Dion for recognizing the cause of crime and looking at prevention - not just riding of the guns and such as everything can be made a weapon. Prevention is a good step if they can follow through.

Automatic weapons are problem but prevention needs to be addressed by everyone.

Let me be clear!

Another drink!

ditto on Jack for opposition

As noted above, Jack again presents himself as the most effective opposition leader here in the crime segment.

I agree with Krystal...

By saying the least, by being calm, Dion looks (dare I say it) prime ministerial.

Liz May pulls it off

Its starts young. Where the hell is school teacher assessment to ferret out the youth that are driven nutty from their micro environments?

Liz May is all over it!

Book 'em, Dano

My teenagers are Stephen Harper's Willie Horton!

Property crime is an addiction issue

Most property crime is directly related to the presence of addiction issues - steal stuff, fence stuff, get stuff. Any discussion of addiction treatment ... or should they just be locked up? Super-prisons anyone?

The rictus returns

He mentions crime and looks as if he's been stabbed.

Layton: ban handguns at the provincial/municipal level.

Duceppe: Crime rate is increasing, especially in Quebec? I thought rates have been going down? Give young criminals better education.

May: Literacy saves kids from crime. Harper smirks.

Harper: We cut a failed literacy program. We like serious penalties for serious crimes.

Layton: Harper prorogued Parliament last year and scuttled such programs. More smirks.

$400/child per year???

That's not Jack's program is it?

Dion looks prime ministerial....

...or bored.

I can't tell which.

protect your lexis, pay for toddler's day care

Layton is making that familiar progressive argjment that criminals have rough childhoods -- delivering a lot of voters to Harper. The voters who had tough childhoods and haven't mugged anyone. The left really has to work on the crime stuff.

Judge

Lets let judges do their job! though if we could elect the judges ( a whole other matter ) that would make everything much better.

"...to send a 14 year old away for life..."

Dion is having no problem whatsoever making himself understood as he hits Harper on law and order.

Dion's English seems to get better when he speaks from the heart.

Will

While I agree with you on why Harper should be fiscally cautious, that's not what Harper's been saying. Things are hunky-dory, no? We're "insulated." I think that was the word. Just like being in a cozy sweater.

On one hand he's saying our economy is insulated (and you point out the surplus is healthy, if some 30 percent reduced). On the other that there isn't money for some arts grants. All I'm saying is it doesn't all line up . . .

Elected judges ...

Are judges that make stupid promises during campaigns ... and can be bought.

Huh?!

Doesn't house arrest save us taxpayers lots of money? ... I wanted to get my hands on Dion's syntax scrambler. Great fun at parties!

May on the law

IS very effective

May day

Canada would be well served by having Elizabeth May in the House of Commons.

Nice one Jack

Absolutely right on the aboriginal issue.

I hope this is noted by the pundits.

Jack shoots off mouth ... and hits foot!

Jack is just wrong when he says "we need to ban handguns and assault rifles on our streets"!! They are banned for god's sake - he should know that but he can't resist a dumb, inaccurate line.

It's criminals illegally carrying guns that are the problem - but would Jack support tough mandatory sentences for carrying a handgun? I totally doubt it.

not sufficient?

Sentences not sufficient for whom? Will vengeance equal compassion under a Tory government? How long until Harper says the word "aboriginal"? Will he ever?

Jacks hogging time and

Jacks hogging time and extrapolating again...

Dion has some points. He brought up "the judge". Good for him! House arrests too! Cheaper than $150 to $250 G's for a female locked up annually, and males at $68 G's to $150 G's from province to province for males... not to mention an estimated 2.2Billion for the new pens...

Give 'em a bracelet? Hell yeah! (and lock up the violent/addicted ones, yup, status quo works for me)

Liz May has me nodding my head. Double standards.

Oh, Latyon talks about first visit in a reserve.

Harper almost looked like he was going to get away with it. And Dion puts out the stop!

Andrew

Bill Tieleman said I had the makings of a good New Democrat because I'm numerically-challenged... and now you say my analysis of federal finances doesn't line up.

There's no inconsistency, there.

Sip.

Kelowna Accord

And here we go - Layton and Dion mix it up

Tough on crime

I like Stephane Dion's quiet strength.

Of course prevention is key. Increased terms of incarceration, particularly of young people, will lead to the situation in the States. At a time they should/could be learning how to function in society, putting more young people in prison teaches criminal behaviour instead of socially acceptable life skills. I'm glad Ms. May made the comment that children must be treated differently.

Barking mad

Paikin doesn't respect Layton, that's f'r damn sure. Familiarity breeds etc. ... Dion's verbs are running over his predicates.

About %#$@&! time

Eighty-three minutes in and we finally get to Afghanistan.

Layton on aboriginal crime

Smacks Harper pretty well. Harper: Back to awful crimes inadequately punished. Compassion for victims.

Dion: Kelowna Accord got shot down by Cons, NDP supported Cons.

Layton smacks back at leaving Harper in power.

Oh my, what a spitting contest.

Layton starts with the low

Layton starts with the low blow. "Dion, you should have taken the government down! Why didn't you oppose?"

I guess he forgot to mention, "Dion, why didn't you make the Harper government fall and risk a Harper majority?"

Low Blow

Jack Layton

He's coming across as a bit mean-spirited. Not sure that's helpful in a leader....

Layton on Dion

There's Layton going for Dion . . . How nice to see the joy shared, not just aimed at Mr. Harper. Did Layton look like a bully, though? Dion didn't even get his fists up . . .

Layton takes the plunge

Was wondering who would be first of Layton and Dion to say they would make the best opposition leader.

que the violins

Can we get a violin to play every time Layton speaks?

Layton is hogging time

It could hurt him.

Hey Monte

I think Eliz. May is the most effective on crime. She's surprisingly articulate and has an amazing attention to detail. I've been surprised by the number of facts and figures she has and how well she expresses her ideas.

Layton smacks Dion hard

I was wondering when Jack was going to take out the big hammer and smash it down on Dion's head.

Who wrote Karzai's speech?

I think there must be a speech writers club out there in consevative circles.

Layton eviscerates Dion

That was brutally effective - Dion got tattooed before he knew it - "if you can't be leader of the opposition why do you want to be prime minister?" Best line so far.

Afghanistan

Could someone please ask pee wee about malalai joya and why he wouldn't even 'meet' with her.

Some democracy he's supporting - and someone, please, bring up Kahdr

Duceppe more mellow tonight?

Duceppe is more mellow tonight. Anyone notice?

"...history free zone..."

Somehow, being lectured by May is not as offensive as being lectured by the others. Why is that?

Iraq and roll

Is no one going to mention the disaster it would have been had Canada followed our good southern ally into Iraq had Stephen Harper had his way?

Will

I'm more concerned with Harper's consistency than yours.

Yes, please, sip again.

Duceppe has nothing to win in an English language debate...

He's just mailing it in.

Bill

I can't help but think that if Layton hits the campaign trail in BC with that attack on Dion, he's going to win a few extra seats. Wasn't pretty, but it was effective.

Afghanistan

Should we pull out in 2011?

Harper: When little brown brothers can take care of themselves, we can leave.

Layton: We opposed extending the mission. Go to the UN and talk a lot.

Duceppe: A shot at Layton. Put more money in humanitarian aid.

May: Incoherent.

Dion: Lip service to our military and civilians.

Coming up next

Dion declares peacekeeping on Darfur.

Did no one ever warn

Harper about double negatives - that's got to be worth a drink...

Cold days in hell

If the NDP can win Outremont, then the Bloc can take Westmount.

"We'll stay until the job is not done" - us too!

The Tyee pundit's new motto! Thanks Stephane!

huh

more double negatives from Dion

DIS-argiment???

Here we go

Duceppe brings up Iraq. This should be good.

Bill

Its an old worn out line that is easily refuted. Dion should have handled it but he didn't. All he had to say was, "we've been 1st or 2nd since the beginning of federation. How can we take this nation into an election if we are not ready or can't win? Or worse, hand over a majority government to Harper?"

Dion didn't say it, but Latyons old line "why didn't you oppose?" is old and easily dismissed.

I'm getting sloshed

He keeps tell me he's being clear!

Stephen harper can't admit

He screwed up - delightful

Afghanistan

Way to call it, Mr. Layton!

Remember when we were Peacekeepers?

Development and humanitarian aid with the cooperation of U.N.

Great interjection, Liz May! (the comment about the reason we're not in Iraq)

Burning Bush

Layton: Harper = Bush, Dion changes exit dates.

Dion: Need to stay to 2011 because Harper's done nothing. I'll tell NATO that 2011 is the firm deadline.

Duceppe: Brings in Iraq and Harper's support for it.

Harper: Ducks answer. Yes, obviously an error to support it. Back to the safety of Afghanistan!

Pants on fire

Time to open another bottle.

Harper

Is in big trouble on this file...now May's going to finish him off

Duceppe goes for the head shot

Tom, there's the moment you wondered about. And Duceppe is cornering him well. 'So you made an error' by calling for sending Canadian troops to Iraq. Harper is trying to suck the air out of the room to avoid admitting. May won't let him out of it.

Liz May nails it!

Its not a UN mission!!!!

She's dead on with this and Harper is hurtin'!

Layton on Dion

I agree it was a line you feel in your gut. I'm just not sure how well it will play in the broader public. Some will see it as Layton picking on someone who doesn't speak well enough to defend himself. There are those who don't like the blood sport tactics.

The Arts

I nearly LOL'ed at everyone making like the arts are all sunshine and lollipops. I guess these leaders haven't seen Hamlet. Everyone dies dudes (and dudette).

Harper's claim to giving art for kids tax credits is blunted by Layton pointing out a career in the arts is a fast-track to the poorhouse, and most artists can't afford to put their kids into arts programmes IMO.

Afghanistan etc.

I think I'd trust Liz May's foreign policy.

Round three a toss-up

I'm having a harder time scoring round three.

Harper held his own, which is all he needs to do to win tonight. It wasn't pretty, but he didn't seem off-balance.

Dion emerged from his corner for the first time in the debate, and often seemed both fair and thoughtful.

Layton overplayed his hand, but also got off the best one-liner thus far: "If you can't be leader of the opposition why do you want to be prime minister?"

May continued to impress as the best-informed, but not so strikingly as in the last segment.

Duceppe is emerging as the guy I want to have come to Thanksgiving Dinner.

Get some Viagra

Did Dion just call Harper impotent? Sorry. It was imprudent.

May takes a good shot

We're giving too much money to Afghanistan, not enough to Africa etc.

One for the pollsters

How many Canadians agree with Harper that Afghanistan can be 'fixed'? How many think Canada can do it there?

hmmmm...

so when Elizabeth talks everyone else is quiet because of course they don't want to be perceived to be debating an irrelevant party or interrupting a woman.

maybe that's why she seems more credible?

it's not as bad as some debates but there are still alot too many interruptions.

he's pissed now

extra points to May - how many soldiers have died - somebody better mention it ...

Ans 139 million for airlifting worthless tanks....

Dion on plagiarism

Casual reference. A real academic would have blown his stack about the ripoff of Howard's speech.

Factoid: "Plagiarius" is the Latin word for "kidnapper."

I wouldn't dump too much

I wouldn't dump too much shit on Dion because he has a bit of a accent. How's your Frence? Maybe we should all concentrate on what the guy is saying. Am I a Liberal? No way, but a lot of the Canadians we meet daily have English as a second or third language.It's sort of ignorant to dump on folks. Those fairly new Canadians vote and some might take offence when one language folks snicker about others accents. Nobody laughed at my lousy translation as I worked in mant places in the world. Get serious folks.

hey retired guy in Toronto

You got a permit for that shed?

"...I want my Canada back..."

If Trudeau spoke Dion's lines, we'd call him a great communicator.

There's something more wrong with the way Dion connects than just his English.

Gilles Duceppe

Hm. Has he been in on your sipping game?

why are there so many questions from men?

the question is rhetorical...

The poor dude can't take a break from shed building?

to talk to the party leaders?

That was like how everyone on Law and Order is too busy to talk to the cops....

Gobble gobble

Big yucks around the television here for Duceppe acknowledging he won't be prime minister and neither will three of the others around the table. OK. Duceppe's coming over for Thanksgiving dinner. Turkey and poutine.

Electoral system

Finally somebody mentioned that!

No bullfeathers

Layton: End corporate tax cut and start creating jobs.

Duceppe: I won't be PM, but I'll ask the PM to start helping the manufacturing sector and its workers, helping seniors, applying Kyoto, and promoting Quebec.

May: Fix our electoral system: Proportional representation. About time it got mentioned.

electoral reform

it would be worth talking about if anyone could agree upon a system - one that folks could understand, and that any of the parties could agree upon the usefulness of coalition governments, as they would be inevitable

'Inventing'

Dion on Layton: "You're inventing something."

Is that the same as "lying"? May I drink?

First thing as Prime Minister

Note to one and all, don't nod in seeming agreement in to your opponent's criticisms during a reaction shot.

Harper makes Nixon look like Carson in terms of comfort in front of the camera

May is wrong on Afghanistan mission

May is wrong on Afghanistan:

"In late 2001, the Security Council authorized the United States to overthrow the Taliban government, as an offensive against the terrorist al-Qaeda organization, said to be based in the country. The Council also authorized the US and its NATO allies to set up the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) to provide military support for a newly-established pro-Western government (the United States also continued to run a separate anti-terrorist military operation)."

"In March 2002 the Council established the United Nations Assistance Mission for Afghanistan (UNAMA) to manage all UN humanitarian, relief, recovery and reconstruction activities. "

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/afgindx.htm

And also:

Citing rising terrorism, UN extends security force in Afghanistan for another year

22 September 2008 - The United Nations Security Council today unanimously extended the mission of the NATO-led International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) in Afghanistan for another year and called for it to be strengthened in the face of increased violence and terrorism from the Taliban, Al-Qaida and drug smugglers."

http://www.unama-afg.org/

it's how to imagine what the question was

was busy checking out the immediate post debate spin in that other country (sorry - we're a two citizenship home with only one TV)

missed the question (sheds? electoral reform? what would you do first if you're prime minister?) but it looks like Duceppe is #2 to admit that he won't be prime minister of Canada.

assuming the decision to wear a sweater on the French debate yesterday was an admission by May that she's not planning to be PM either, that leaves Dion to lay his cards on the table one way or the other.

I love Duceppe in the English debate

He's like a crazy bulldog! He knows that his supporters don't live outside Quebec, so he gives everyone a poke in the ribs!

He makes it more entertaining to watch for sure.

Hyphenated

First thing I do as prime minister is nationalize the Vancouver Canucks and make Mark Leiren-Young the general manager.

different standards?

Do we have a different standard for Francophone politicians in Canada than we do for Anglophone politicians? If Harper were to mangle the French language the way Dion mangles the English language, it would certainly be fair comment to discuss.

Income Trusts

Harper should bring it up....and now Paikin is taking Jack's side and pointing out Dion is wrong about McGuinty's statment

This should give May a chance to spell out her partnership with the liberals - and Harper will likely mention it

You think?

Dave...

Canada can't do much for Afghanistan other than find the solution to peace.

It comes down to 14 million Pushtin's in the south (CIA playbook was simple Bushian civil war, back the North, crush the south ) but Bush didn't count on 29 million Pushtins all along the Afghan/Pakistan border. Unless Pakistan gets involved and its their 2nd largest ethnic group so they risk a civil war if they try, this war can't be won.

If the U.S. continues cross border attacks, the mission will also fail. (christ, they weren't even picking up the phone and letting the democratically elected prez of pakistan know before hand. Very dullard foreign policy by Bush but what's new?)

Canada's role to bring peace and stability involves foriegn aid as a bargaining tool to stem the flow of opium from the region and brokering the possibility of two nations within AFghanistan (North/South) brokered with Obama once he gets elected. Ultimately the U.S. wants an unhindered strategic play on Iran while estabilishing trade routes through Afghanistan. I believe the Taliban could be negotiated with to that end with diplomacy, but its not on the table... yet.

[SORRY, EVERYONE. IT APPEARS OUR SYSTEM HIT THE UPPER LIMIT FOR THE NUMBER OF COMMENTS ALLOWED AFTER A STORY. IN FACT, WE JUST LEARNED WE HAVE A LIMIT. I'LL REFRAIN FROM MAKING A SWEEPING DISPARAGING GENERALIZATION ABOUT THE INTERNET AND COMPUTERS IN GENERAL.

ALL WE CAN OFFER AT THIS POINT IS A SINCERE THANKS TO EVERYONE WHO PARTICIPATED, AN APOLOGY FOR THE ANTI-CLIMACTIC ENDING, AND A PROMISE THAT WE'LL HAVE THIS FIXED FOR NEXT TIME.

THANKS AGAIN FOR ALL THE WITTY AND INSIGHTFUL COMMENTS. -GEOFF.]