More Partisan Nonsense

Tieleman wrote: "Friday's tragic apparent drug overdose death of Ashlie Gough, a 23-year-old woman from Victoria, was an overwhelmingly clear signal that Occupy Vancouver is unsafe and needs to end as soon as possible in a peaceful manner."

While I don't disagree that the Occupy movement has started to turn some people off, the statement above is just a pathetic attempt to save the mayor's political a*s.

The young woman in question didn't die BECAUSE she was living in the Occupy camp. She died because she was (apparently) a drug user. That's like saying that fault for the death of a drunk driver should be blamed on the car he was driving.

The notion that an overdose death is "an overwhelmingly clear signal" that the camp is inherently dangerous is ... dumb. It is so dumb that I can only conclude it is being used as a screen to protect political fortunes. In other words, it's just a lie.

And if the camp is inherently dangerous, then a sensible person would have to conclude that the entire Downtown Eastside is inherently dangerous ... and should be "shut down". I look forward to the video of the VPD riot squad clearing out the DES and sending the residents to ... where exactly?

Ironically, the lies that politicians tell in order to save their skins is a big part of the "problem" that the Occupations are trying to reveal. Tielman's position seems to be that lies from Robertson are somehow less damaging than lies from Anton ... which is more than a little revealing, no?

With every new column, Tieleman chips away at his own credibility.

Well, Bill, you hit every

Well, Bill, you hit every right wing talking point, congrats! Ashlie died Saturday, by the way, not Friday.

You completely miss the "Rough Draft" part of "Rough Draft - Working Demands". The CTV (really?) piece you linked to makes it clear. I'm surprised you didn't.

And you really can't follow the reasoning around an overdose on the Art Gallery grounds, I'm surprised. Before Occupy got there, the VAG was divided into quadrants based on who was allowed to sell drugs there. Not really the idea most people have of the Art Gallery, is it? True though.

And it's a conspiracy theory that the City is playing politics with health and safety, is it? When it's the only lever available to evict a political protest? It's a conspiracy theory to suggest the city is exaggerating safety fears because that gives them a stronger case to get rid of what has become a rebuke to their governance?

And to top it all off by suggesting that because the NPA is worse, that no one should criticize Vision? Oh, it is to laugh.

This city has a drug problem, therefore so does Occupy Vancouver. And because of Occupy Vancouver, the majority who prefer to avert their eyes when driving through the DTES and characterize drug addicts as wastes of skin are forced to confront their own prejudices. Unfortunately, the most comfortable psychological fallback position is to blame the site where the OD occurred.

I mean, go ahead and ignore the moral dilemma faced by the movement - that they've created a safe space that people who sleep on the street are desperate for. Go ahead and speak righteously of evicting the homeless and addicted in favour of looking cleaner on the media and more approachable by the middle class. Solutions, ah, there's the rub.

I am the author of that petition. I was also quoted in the CTV article you linked to. It seems like we're on the same page, in general. What got me so involved with all of this was a sign I created on Thursday the 13th that I couldn't let go of: "Way to go BC! Highest child-poverty rate in Canada! We're number 1! We're number 1!"

This is the outlet. People are paying attention. And they are only paying attention because they are being forced to. If you have skills to offer - come and help. You think we need a better PR strategy? You think we need to turn away the poor and indigent? Come down and argue for it. This...fear-mongering about NPA is just sad. Let's see some action. Contact me any time.

Further proof that birds fly,

Further proof that birds fly, bees sting and hacks hack. Voting changes nothing, never has and never will.

Time to Focus OWS onto real political talking points!

We need to focus our OWS and redirect our unknowns onto known political talking points!

Ending prohibition is a known political talking point that has traction right now... but lacks leadership [free Marc Emery] and with planned mandatory minimum sentencing that is going to be forced down our throats soon, it demands action be taken and a line in the sand drawn... they've drawn the line and its completely unacceptable... now its our turn!

FOR STARTERS...ITS PAST TIME TO FREE MARC EMERY help us get our political master back into the debate!

The prohibitionistas will come at ya sideways so we need to be ready for it...
We need to realize that the arrest of Marc Emery was a start to the re-establishment of Federal authority even though the US driven mandate and law is one basically about taxation and the collection of taxes...
Marc Emery is a political prisoner of conscience and Canada let this travesty of justice spill & take over because of trade threats.
We all also know that schedule one drug status means that it has no known medical value yet the medical value of Cannabis has been a known fact for Milena, which proves beyond a doubt that prohibition is a lie!

prohibition is a lie in so many ways... you know it, they know it... everyone knows it!
yet it continues to dominate our judicial purview, with the cost in lives lost and ruined reaching the multi-million mark decades ago ...yet it still continues...
Mexico is being murdered, through gang & turf warfare, with the USA as the main cause and effect...
if the USA just stopped buying elicit drugs from across its borders and stopped shipping guns as payment, Mexico and the rest of the Americas wouldn't be having this debate,
and if the US political system stopped corrupting offshore political establishments with bribes and kick backs, this bloodletting wouldn't be happening... we all know this yet we all continue to let this happen.
CANADA & THE USA... are the cause and control of this pain ... NO ONE ELSE... Canda is just as culpable because we are allowing it and not taking a stand against it!

Its time to wake up, past time to act & its long past time to fix this lie...
Its time to focus OWS onto a real purpose and this insane prohibition is the ideal target...
Lets redirect OWS and own this debate once and for all...
Lets redirect our political will and capital and end prohibition once and for all...
Lets redirect our future and project it beyond this lie

the war on US has to end

read this... then we'll talk...
The Price of Pot Prohibition
By: Peter Jaworski
http://c2cjournal.ca/2009/07/the-price-of-pot-prohibition/

Really?

I just don't care about them. All through my working life(42 years of it, I served this nation, served my province, served my community, served my family. I paid all my taxes for the services that we received. I was responsible for my own actions and for my under age kid's actions, their welfare and their future potential contributions to society as adults.
NOW, some group of misfits invades a public place and declares it "theirs".
Then, if that's the case, make it "theirs". Fence it, let them be "responsible" for it. No help, no handouts, no welfare, no external support, no drug money, no "free soup kitchen", no nothing, except what THEY can produce.

A prime example...

...of how one-issue groups are hijacking Occupy Vancouver. Guess what - your fixation on pot laws is getting attention for your pet cause while sucking up the energy of the movement. Congratulations! Please, please don't send any more "pot activists" down to the VAG. They all seem incapable of differentiating between root causes and symptoms. The ridiculous drug war is a SYMPTOM of the co-optation of governments by corporations. Change that and we can deal with the symptoms. Keep singing the same song you've been singing that people are completely comfortable ignoring and you'll pull OV down the same way. I'm begging you. Please leave your individual pet causes at home and focus on the big picture.

The Occupy movement have made their point: time to move on.

Thank you for telling us that we live in a cruel world. We have to work if we want to eat, and we have to move elsewhere if we can't find work in wonderland.

Many Canadians are working in Asia, teaching English. It isn't great unless you really like sushi, but they are making a living. In most real terms we now enjoy a better standard of living than ever before in human hnistory. Yes, we still have to work, but we can buy most things cheaper than in 1970.

It is very easy in BC to go curmudgeon if you are not involved in anything. Cities like Vancouver are very much a part of the Rat Race. That is why many folks move out.
Voting DOES matter, and don't let anyone tell you different.

Will the Mayor, Premier, and Prime Minister ensure us that none

These entities or their subsidiaries are operating in Canada and if they are that they will arrest, try and confiscate their property? This is why we do not have proper drug policies in Canada or around the world. The "respectable" types make to much from them-the very people that this young person dies protesting against.

More shocking, and more important, the bank was sanctioned for failing to apply the proper anti-laundering strictures to the transfer of $378.4bn – a sum equivalent to one-third of Mexico's gross national product – into dollar accounts from so-called casas de cambio (CDCs) in Mexico, currency exchange houses with which the bank did business.

"Wachovia's blatant disregard for our banking laws gave international cocaine cartels a virtual carte blanche to finance their operations," said Jeffrey Sloman, the federal prosecutor. Yet the total fine was less than 2% of the bank's $12.3bn profit for 2009. On 24 March 2010, Wells Fargo stock traded at $30.86 – up 1% on the week of the court settlement.

The conclusion to the case was only the tip of an iceberg, demonstrating the role of the "legal" banking sector in swilling hundreds of billions of dollars – the blood money from the murderous drug trade in Mexico and other places in the world – around their global operations, now bailed out by the taxpayer.

Such an ironic article Bill

I'm sorry Bill, I'm usually in agreement with much of what you write but you're off the mark here. If we don't shake people out of their comfort zones then nothing really will change.

You assume the occupiers want a Robertson-led city and not an Anton-led one but you're wrong. Occupiers don't care who the lesser evil is and are willing to take on ever bolder opponents. They simply do not recognize the authority of these institutions and that is the broader point here. Integrating the Occupiers back into the system is not the answer and few are pretending that it is. I'm just surprised you don't see that. The Occupiers are not selling anything, they are self-determining and don't have any regard, nor should they, what you or the rest of the media think.

It is ironic in a way that articles like these are indicators that the OWS movement is gaining strength, because it puts the lie to the idea that leftwing status-quo politics would help them. It won't. In order to wake up the people you have to alientate them, shake them up and force their hand. Go Occupy!

...and if you want to protest hard drug use, homelessness and rats, then go occupy the DTES. Just don't give me any BS about Vision trying to end the homelessness that is integral to keeping leftist policies, and thus the whole corrupt political and economic system afloat. I'm looking forward to seeing what Anton would do with her power. Heavy-handed? We dare her!

tyee editors should apologize for this piece of crap

what a nasty, distorted, uncalled for knife-in-the-back of the desperately needed reviving spirit of non-governed, life affirming community. this article is full of distortions and cherry-picking of the data to manufacture a grossly biased view of the vancouver 'occupy' initiative. is the tyee editorial board part of this movement to rip the free and natural spirit out of the city and region and paint over the lobotomized shell with smug, self-righteous 'best place on earth' political hype?

Release non-violent prisoners?

That would be insane.

One of the things the Occupy movement on Wall Street exists because of is that "non-violent" people on Wall Street weren't going to jail for their white collar crimes.

With stuff like that I can only say Occupy Vancouver is part of the problem.

You can have a movement that speaks to the will of the majority and gains support or you can have one that sits in tents, does nothing and gets ignored.

Something worse than hypocrisy is going on here

Tieleman wrote: "And to defeat a progressive majority who are trying to end street homelessness, make Vancouver the greenest city in the world and an arts and culture capital."

I don't think they are trying very hard. Street homelessness could have easily been ended long ago, but instead billions have been spent on athletes and their spectators, to name just one political immorality. Besides, street homelessness is only one small part of the problem. There are far more hidden homeless and nearly homeless (i.e., who are about to lose their home or live in sub-standard housing). And how are the poor expected to take part in the arts and culture of a green city without a little 'green' of their own?

I saw Tieleman make this same argument on CBC Newsworld and it struck me at the time how he sneered at the protesters for allowing the homeless and addicted into their ranks. He was originally onside with the protests, just like the mayors and councils of Vancouver and Victoria claimed to be, until they weren't.

Something worse than hypocrisy is going on here. The politicians initially proclaimed that political protesters were welcomed and their right to free speech supported, but then changed their minds when the people most visibly affected by the issues addressed by the protests are seen to be part of those protests.

That sends a fairly strong message to the homeless. Any kind of tent 'city' set up by the homeless is immediately torn down by city officials. On the other hand, a 'tent' city set up by 'political' protesters is allowed to remain, but only until the homeless appear to be causing 'problems', and then that too is taken down. And people like Tieleman, who live in comfortable homes, sneer and tell you to vote for the status quo.

not attentive

AMEN!!!!
as a veteran activist I warned them about the tents, over a week ago, and suggested to fold them but keep the food/medic and have strategic times for General Assemblies

Keep Occupying.

If it is uncomfortable to look at, pissing off all political stripes - they are probably doing something right.

Lost its way?

I would say Occupy Vancouver has lost its way, except I don't know if it knows where it's going, nor how it would know if it got there.
I support many of the stated principles of the movement, and I work many hours every week in political action. I supported the initial Occupy rally, and will support future rallies but they must be focussed and organized. Much time and energy is being wasted at the Art Gallery today.

List of demands

Actually, having now read them all, only a few of the demands are totally silly.

Hopefully the final list will weed them out.

Good Luck

Enjoy your time under house arrest/electronic monitoring for violating the injunction.

As you sit in your homes or shelters, restricted from contact with one another, unable to organize or accomplish anything politically for 3 months, ask yourself whether the downtime is worth it.

Also ask yourself whether it might have been better to stand down, and re-engage with the thousands of people that came out to support you in the beginning.

There's a time to fight, and a time to retreat. You risk compromising your ability to act more strongly in the future. Choose wisely....

What non-cooperation with our own oppression would look like

More direct action. That is what is needed to sustain the protests.

Below is an excerpt from an AlterNet article published today that has an excellent suggestion for direct action. It reminds me of a housing protest in Hong Kong that targeted a property developer. Activists staged a protest in one of developer Li Ka-Shing’s supermarkets. They loaded up carts with groceries they had no intention of buying and then blocked all the check out lines. Li Ka-Shing's Concord Pacific is a major player in Vancouver. see:

http://themainlander.com/2011/10/05/occupyvancouver-look-to-hong-kong-housing-activists-for-inspiration/

Debtor's Revolution

http://www.alternet.org/story/152963/debtor%27s_revolution%3A_are_debt_strikes_another_possible_tactic_in_the_fight_against_the_big_banks

... The project, nicknamed “Kick-Stopper,” is in the works, but Gokey notes that he's far from the only person out there suggesting, especially in the wake of Occupy Wall Street's successes, that it's time for some more serious, organized direct action around the issue of debt.

“I wanted to do this project because I kept having the same basic conversation with everyone at Zuccotti and everywhere else,” Gokey told me. “When I talk to people about what we could do that would really compel Congress and Wall Street to meet our demands or really alter the current system, we inevitably start discussing what non-cooperation with our own oppression would look like. What does it mean to stop cooperating with the banks? What we inevitably end up describing is some variation of a debt strike, simply ending our own participation in a system that exploits us.”

...

So wiping out some of that debt, most of which is owed to the same banks that broke the economy in the first place, would in fact be an economic stimulus. Why has there been no action?

David Graeber, anthropologist and author of Debt: The First 5000 Years, told Naked Capitalism, “If you want to take a relation of violent extortion, sheer power, and turn it into something moral, and most of all, make it seem like the victims are to blame, you turn it into a relation of debt.”

Bill Tieleman responds

Thanks for the comments - good debate. More of a debate here where people can't be shouted down by the Occupy Vancouver hardliners that totally disrupted a debate on homelessness held in a church - that must have really built a lot of support from the public.

The reality is that many of these protesters have exactly the view above of golsen9: "You assume the occupiers want a Robertson-led city and not an Anton-led one but you're wrong. Occupiers don't care who the lesser evil is and are willing to take on ever bolder opponents."

I agree - many Occupy campers could care less if Gregor Robertson is the mayor or if longtime labour and environment activists like Geoff Meggs or Andrea Reimer are replaced by NPA candidates like Bill McCreery - who lives in Richmond by the way - or Jason Lamarche, who set up an online system for ranking his ex-girlfriends' prowess in bed.

As pointed out here, I do care. I've lived through years of NPA-dominated city councils and the results have hurt Vancouver.

If you think that an Anton NPA majority will simply hasten the revolution perhaps you should vote for her. If you and the Tangler think Vision/COPE are the "lesser evil" and Gregor is "lying" about safety issues at Occupy, use your vote that way.

But don't keep pretending you represent the 99% of ordinary people when your actions are getting you closer and closer to representing less than 1%.

Same Old

As always, Tieleman takes a shot back at his critics. It's not enough that he has ready access to a column in The Tyee - he also uses the comment section to retaliate.

Back in the golden, olden days of journalism, it was considered to be the height of bad form to reply to critics. Not so much anymore, I guess.

But then, Tieleman wouldn't know anything about the golden, olden days of journalism.

True Colours

Media exists to entertain, misinform and preserve the status quo.

After reading this article it is clear that The Tyee is part of the problem.

Occupy Vancouver?

OV is *making a revolution* by demanding everyone agree that Americans flew airplanes into their own buildings ten years ago..? It's even funny that they think that's on the minds of the rest of society, who just tries to make it financially every month.

Yeah, gimme that crucial 9/11 link, because that makes the *revolution* very close. Heh.

Geez! I would think you, Mr.

Geez!

I would think you, Mr. Teileman, a 'political strategist', would know that this is a case of 'Divide and Conquer.' And it's working really well for the right wing.

Mainstradical makes some very important points. I think he or she sums up the problem very well by stating that the protesters should leave their pet causes at home, and focus on the bigger picture; That is, focus on the ROOT CAUSES of economic and social inequality. That is what 99% of the people agree on. And that is what the 1% are terrified of: Actually focusing on the root causes on the enormous causes between the gap between the rich and the poor.

Catering to every desire of the marginalized 1% in this protest only alienates the vast majority of others (the 99%) who identify and agree with the aims of building a more equal society.

Also would be a shame if the NPA (representing the 1%) regain power because of this. They're probably paying drug addicts to set up camp down there right now.

A movement like this must be very strategic in how it plays out. If its goals are vague and not articulated very well people on the right complain "Well, what DO they want?" Then when people actually show up with signs stating what they want: from decriminalizing drug use, converting everyone to a vegan diet, or saving the prairie oyster dog, then people on the right have succeeded in its well orchestrated goal of dividing the movement, because the majority (just do the math) cease to identify with any particular pet cause. Then people start 'debating' the merits of this and that pet cause, and whether it should or should not be a part of the movement. And before you know it the energy is drained out of the movement and people go home to watch Hell's Kitchen.
Then the 1% will have won. AGAIN!

There is still a chance for the 99% to TAKE BACK THE MOVEMENT with some large scale demonstrations focusing on the ROOT CAUSES of massive inequality in our society.

And of all the demands Occupy Vancouver is making, maybe just make one, just one, but very firm demand from the protesters themselves.
LEAVE YOUR PET CAUSES AT HOME. PERIOD. NO IFS, ANDS OR BUTS!!! FOCUS ON THE BIG PICTURE. IF YOU CAN'T DO THAT, THEN STAY AT HOME BECAUSE YOU'RE A DETRIMENT TO THE MOVEMENT.

Retaliate?

Get over yourself Tangler. Commenting technology didn't exist in the 'golden olden days of journalism', whenever that was.

You're suggesting Tieleman should not engage with the comment thread because....why exactly?

If you don't like what he said, reply. Don't just complain about it. I'd rather a writer, any writer, engage in a discussion than write their piece and leave.

Engage his comment and back up your original point if it's important enough to post in the first place.

Have to agree with deeby

Have to agree with deeby here!

Hey tangler: It is really really easy to find things that people in the movement disagree on. Why do you continue to highlight them? A movement like this needs to consistently occupy the common ground. That is what the 1% are actually terrified of: A UNIFIED FRONT!

It Doesn't Matter Who In The Status Quo...

Well, I certainly agree with the general direction of Occupy in one important sense reported by Tieleman, and is at the heart of the problem such emerging movements are going to have with political "social democracy". It really doesn't matter which Party, provincially or federally, or "local" cover that they use at the municipal level, whom you have doing the paper work and acting as a shill for Capital, they will all "fundamentally" act the same. They are in on "the game". And they all know who they are "really" working for... and its called BUSINESS. And "business" in our society is raw, naked Capitalism underneath however fine the robes you attempt to dress it up and seek to enhance its cleavage.

That is why Robertson, or even any labour bureaucrat known to me for that matter, when class push comes to class shove, and especially when you are talking a fundamental, revolutionary transformation of the economy and society,will not conduct himself "significantly" differently toward you than NPA. They are really all at best just seeking to tweak what is wrecked and impaled on its own greed sword, to keep the cadaver breathing, to fight another day. They are committed to this economic and democratic deficit status quo. They are part of it.

It is going to fight back for sure, especially as this deepens, and the economic and political crises with it. And they are dangerous, and will be more so. But what we need to do, and let the Social Democrats/NDPers play their games and make their choices, and pick their side. (Hell, even vote for them, if you want/feel it will do any damned good.) But what the rest of us need to do is just what's happening... trying to build the critical mass vehicle that can manoeuvre around or through them, and simply leave them as irrelevant behind us at some point. Expecting anything major from this system and its hacks is a waste of time. It really is.

It ain't a done deal we're doing for sure, mistakes have been and are going to be made, but playing by their rules is a blind alley, and we all, those who support and are active in Occupy just need to keep pushing back... 'cause you know that's forward. When they start praising you, then you know that you're really doing something wrong.

They're used to folks bending over before them. It drives them mad when you don't.

online etiquette.

I have never encountered a more patient or rational internet participant than Bill T. His patience with obvious trolls, PAB, wackos, etc is nothing short of Gandhi-like.

Bill is perhaps getting older and is a bit out of touch with youth - but everyone must see that here is a person working practically in a way that he can to try to make BC a better place. He deserves respect.

As far as Occupy having a singular message - that is simply ridiculous. There is no simple singular or even countable phenomena that is destroying our cultures. Occupy is truly worldwide - cross cultures. Occupy is a natural response to power gone badly rogue. Occupy is in response to a complete disintegration of any social contract. For example what we have left in Canada was built generations ago, is no longer maintained, is being sold.

Furthermore here in Canada we are completely post shame (an outright lie is now legally an exaggeration, torture is moralized and justified - Omar Khadr,...) and our youth can see that plainly and what it means to their lives in a very immediate way. The rest of us will be up to speed soon enough.

Researching the Climate thingey

really gave me an insight into how foundation money works these days, so for that reason I am not enchanted with Robertson. That doesn't give me a real choice because Anton is Anton!

What I found most interesting about this piece is that Tielman pointed out that Occupy didn't follow the script....they didn't ask for the Tobin Tax as they were supposed to.

The Tobin bleedin' Tax just keeps the present crooked, gamed system in place.

Why does the Orthodox Left in this country so ignore the biggest problem...our letting the Banksters have control over the creation of money. A Goldman Sachs guy is head of the Bank of Canada.... not even behind a curtain. It stinks!

We can create our own debt free money and the NDP never talk about it.

Don't you find that more than passing strange?

Pretzel Logic

The sweeping generalizations, the flawed logic and the inarticulate belly-aching of the OV crowd is as appalling as it is astonishing.
The most effective change comes from within, not from restricting the freedom and rights of citizens who deserve your respect.
So if you're serious about your demands, wash your hands, pull up your pants, turn your hat around, field-strip that blunt, roll up the sleeves of your flannel shirt, vote, and get to work.

Demands

Although Tieleman says "there are lots of demands that many would heartily support -- even if some are highly unlikely to be achieved," he misses so many points. Between Protests and The Revolution there's something called Political Struggle. And no, this doesn't mean Lobbying or marching to the Hallowed Ballot Box only every few years.

Let's examine the demands more closely but critically.

1) "Closing of tax loopholes such as dark pools of liquidity and employer-side payroll taxes":

I don't know employer payroll taxes is a loophole, but I am of the opinion that employee payroll taxes (EI) are regressive and should be replaced by more progressive taxation.

2) "We demand that the banks be nationalized and limit interest payments to 1%. The Board of Directors of the Bank of Canada and top tier of management must now include at least 50% representatives for Labor/wage earners and the balance must contain a mix of academics, as well as business people. The mandate of the Bank of Canada must now include the pursuit of low unemployment in addition to low inflation. (An alternative demand to nationalization of the banks is: "We demand a cap on interest rates at 5% plus prime.")":

I agree with the nationalization of all the banks, but also of all the credit unions. The rest is fluff except for the low cyclical and structural unemployment, and even that should be radicalized.

3) "We demand that all income tax for those who make less than the living wage be eliminated" and "We demand a higher minimum wage – one that equals a living wage. Those unable to work due to disability or infirmity should have a guaranteed income which will allow a dignified existence":

Anyone who's literate enough about economic indicators should look at real wages as % of real GDP and real profits as % of real GDP.

4) "We demand that corporate personhood is repealed":

Good stuff.

5) "We demand the installation of a proportional representation system in all municipal, provincial and federal elections. We demand the adoption of Swiss-style direct democracy and Nunavut-style consensus-decision-making into all political processes":

It's all good except for the obsession with consensus decision-making. It only props up the status quo.

6) "We demand that "none of the above" be an option on all electoral ballots":

Now you really can't say, "If you don't vote, don't complain," can you?

The rest of the other demands I can live with.

Conspiracy Theory

My conspiracy theory is that the top 1% are paying the Occupiers to distract the public from the big issues of their obscene wealth, and tax cuts etc. and turn the debate into one about tenting in the middle of cities. The Occupiers have successfully turned Mayors (who have nothing to do with creating the economic system that has created such financial disparities) into their targets. If the Occupiers are not being paid to destroy this great opportunity of media attention focusing on the causes of society's inequalities, then their lack of intelligence and political sophistication is pathetic. They are turning the public support and interest away every day they continue with their squat.

The Occupiers have fallen

The Occupiers have fallen into the trap of letting the 1% frame the argument. As a result they are being forced to play by the rules the 1% set out. Thc MSM made this obvious when they started claiming that the Movment was directionless and had no specific demands. In response, the Occupiers took the bait and we now have a list of demands.

It’s possible that the Occupy Movements may change societal views on the numerous issues presented in the “draft list” of demands. It’s also possible that some segments of society may win from the changes that result.. But it’s extremly unlikely that dialogue on “demands” will convince those with the power to make changes that they must redefine Capitalism.

Changes that would satisfy the demands set out by the Occupiers are orders of magnitude greater in complexity and pain than any movement or march humanity has witnessed so far. Although the Gay Rights, Civil Rights and the Feminist Movements were major milestones in improving the quality of life for various segments of society, none of those movements realized gains without violence and none altered the course of Capitalism.

In the end, Gays and Blacks were marginally better off, and for a period of time, until the Feminist backlash overpowered reason, women enjoyed greater freedom. Most women today have been bought off by Capitalism. But, of even greater significance is the fact that none of these movements brought society any closer to identifying and understanding root causes of racial discrimination, gay bashing or misogyny.

The Occupy folks talk about looking for and dealing with ROOT CAUSES but they haven’t drilled passed the first layer in their search. There may be a correlation between the war on drugs and corporate co-optation of governments but corporate co-optation, like most of the ills plaguing society today, is a symptom of societal conditioning and education.

Conditioning and education write the stories we live by and those stories become the reality we share with the rest of society. We are the stories we tell ourselves.

Unless we recognize that we need to look elsewhere besides the truncated thinking that accompanies binary discussions of good and bad, left and right, or predator and prey we are pretty much guaranteed to continue on the same path we are presently on … asking the same questions over and over while we witness human and environmental destruction.

No need to reinvent the wheel

Occupyrates need to realize the tools of change have already been created, but are just under utilized. Cooperatives, trade unions, and other progressive, democratic entities have all travelled this road before and we just need to reinvigorate those sectors with strong leadership, hard work, and refocussed principles.

The problem is that today's activists in the Occupy movement seem to think leadership is a four letter word. The are missing a great opportunity with OV to work with a progressive leader like Mayor Robertson who could aid in making OV a global leader in the dialogue.

Trying to create a new autonomous state in a within a municipality is a joke, and not respecting the democratically elected city council is counter productive.

The trap?

#Occupy Vancouver published their list of demands as a draft, because they knew there was much to be worked on, and real democracy is time-consuming. However imperfect they and their list of demands is, they are the only people who have elevated the public discourse past those binary discussions, KWD. I think Bill is contributing here to that old story: that 'we' need to have power before 'we' can accomplish anything. It's an old story because we can all see where that has brought us: right back to the struggle for power that consumes all political parties, and mires any hope of real change deep in the mud.

I think there is real wisdom in what Occupy Vancouver are talking about and doing, the kind of stuff that gets to the heart of why we live in communities, and why we prefer democracy.For many of us, there is no real participation in society by virtue of no job, no prospects, and no hope. Those who don't wake up with that reality every day find it difficult to comprehend, I suppose. Still, if I had to bet, I'd bet on the occupiers to be real agents of change. There are many millions of us suffering, but now we refuse to walk through through life demoralized and drifting.

More importantly, we now begin (and admittedly it is a small beginning) to see what real democracy can accomplish.

Enough BS already!

The occupy movement has great goals, but no means of achieving them!

Eventually they will all occupy a jail cell instead.

If you want change and have no patience teaching the population to vote for the right party, then the only alternative is a proper revolution.

Sorry there is no restrooms or soup-kitchens guaranteed if you revolt, only a bitter fight, probably against police and the army.

Also for it to work, it has to be world-wide and dead-serious!

The typical protests where you go home when you are tired will not work, so decide if you are fooling around or are prepared to die if need be!

Pompous man

Mr Tieleman, you sound like some grumpy old conservative. Newsflash...there are people who are in desperate need of help...and there are those who are protesting...that the two groups are sharing space...just makes good sense...and as to what they are protesting about...try making some educated guesses...

As I see it

As I see it, the occupy movement is doomed to failure if it deteriorates into a donnybrook with the police. All it will accomplish is to play into the hands of the corporate spindoctors and they are masters at turning the masses against one another.

My suggestion would be to turn off the money taps. The corporate world only understands one thing, which is money and they specialize in ways of extracating it from our pockets into theirs. If the majority of the so-called 99% stopped buying goods made in repressive countries such as China and shopped more at independent retailers instead of the big chain stores whenever possible, the impact on their bottom lines could be huge. As an example, Apple just released their I-phone 4S and what did we see on the news. People lining up overnight just to be first to get one. Those lineups were not occupied by the elites of society but the 99 percenters. What kind of message does that send?

It would be interesting to know how many of the people that showed up at the first day of the Occupy Vancouver rally own the newest version of the type of cellphone they prefer, the newest tablet, newest laptop etc. when the one that they just replaced was still functional. How many of these same people were wearing designer clothes manufactured in countries by people that probably didn't earn enough in one day to buy a double-double at Timmy's? How many of them attended the rally with a designer caffeine beverage in their hand?

If you really want to hit them where it hurts, hit them in their collective bottom lines.

I think it is past time that all groups claiming a mantle of

Progressive form some sort of association or cooperative. We have Rabble, We have the real news we have the tyee. I think these groups should amalgamate save resources and expand their field of operations. These should include union press as well. An actual issues magazine oh yeah we have one of those as well. An actual press reaching far more people could emerge from this and be a much better force against the corporate media. Or is everyone happy with their own niche? We may with that kind of intellectual power be able to grab some of the public airwaves.....Solidarity, Cooperation An alernate press united will never be defeated.....You folks should think about it.
RR

Yes crankypants

It has to be more than just stopping shopping at the big box stores it has to be all out economic warfare. Stop paying taxes, stop paying mortgages, stop paying credit cards, take off your licence plates, in other words stop feeding the beast it is the only way. Money is the problem and withholding it from the 1% is the only way we can ever hope to change things. Alas most people will carry on feeding the beast fearful they will not be looked after by the nanny state. We are getting what we deserve for allowing the money cartel bankster gangsters to steal our labour through creating money from nothing and charging interest on it to boot. Just say No or be prepared to lose everything as the 1% want it all and are well on their way to getting it leaving the rest of us indentured slaves. It is our choice but there is little time left. Choose wisely if not for your self then for your children all future generations. Peace and good luck.

Thanks Bill

I'm a left wing union activist and I agree with you. I hope people vote on the real issues Nov 19th.

my petition started first and many are happy to sign

I will be in East Van today with the petition though anyone can print, sign and share it here:

http://theuniter.com

"We wish to show the Occupiers we represent the majority here and for a movement that prides itself as democratic and inclusive that they respect our wishes and please leave immediately without provoking a confrontation.

The protesters on Wall Street are there because they blame Wall Street money and power for corrupting their American government. They are targeting those whom they blame for the financial crisis. The Vancouver Art Gallery is absolutely and unequivocally blameless in any of these affairs and should be vacated immediately.

Though some of us share the concerns about income and power disparity in society, there is no way the Vancouver Art Gallery is responsible for these issues and the weeks long hijacking of our friendly public space has to come to an immediate end.

Everyone in Vancouver enjoys the Vancouver Art Gallery’s outdoor spaces and we wish that Vancouver tradition carry on free from any further encampment."

check out the About page for more of my personal opinion why Iam doing this if you like. I won't be able to respond online during day asI am out getting sigs :D