Opinion

Voters Turning Back HST Teach Key Lessons

Now we'll see if BC's government and business leaders are listening.

By Bill Tieleman, 30 Aug 2011, TheTyee.ca

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No reason to be puzzled by HST vote results. The messages are clear.

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"There is no real power in money, power is in the vote." -- Henry Wise Wood, Grain Growers Guide, 1920

The Harmonized Sales Tax referendum vote last week to kill the tax taught some important lessons -- but is the B.C. government and big business listening?

First, the HST is a stunning illustration to politicians across Canada of what happens when you mislead voters before an election and surprise them after.

Denying that the BC Liberal Party had HST plans prior to the May 2009 vote and then announcing in July the HST would be imposed cost Premier Gordon Campbell his job -- despite winning three elections.

Second, not consulting voters about the HST only heightened suspicion and anger.

No studies, no public meetings -- nothing happened before Campbell claimed the HST was "the single biggest thing we can do to improve B.C.'s economy."

Third, the BC Liberals stubbornly refused to listen to British Columbians who disagreed with the HST and didn't want to pay an extra seven per cent tax on hundreds of goods and services.

To an alarming degree still voiced by some government supporters, anyone who didn't endorse the HST was denounced as stupid or worse.

"The highest form of ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about," was one HST backer's arrogant Twitter comment that was reTweeted repeatedly Sunday.

Presumably he thinks the 881,198 people who voted 55 per cent Yes to extinguish the HST were idiots while the 728,927 voting No to keep the HST were geniuses.

Denial after millions spent spinning

Those in the business community who heavily backed the HST through the Smart Tax Alliance were only slightly more restrained but equally in denial about the results.

"The B.C. government, I think, has got now to sit down with business and all stakeholders and perhaps develop a Son-of-HST version that is a consumption tax, that is a fair consumption tax and allow it to not have to refocus its efforts on business taxes or on income taxes, which was their goal," according to BC Chamber of Commerce president John Winter.

Big business was equally unhappy at the loss -- and the end to a $2 billion annual tax shift from its members to consumers.

"This is a very, very, big setback for the business community and for building a competitive and productive B.C. economy," Jock Finlayson, vice-president of the Business Council of BC told the Vancouver Sun. "It's not just business that will be affected. It's the provincial economy as a whole."
 That's why the Smart Tax Alliance was well-financed to run a television, radio, print, Internet ad campaign by FD Element [now being re-named FTI Consulting] -- the agency that also ran the failed 2009 pro-Single Transferable Vote TV ad efforts -- and a Prime Contact telephone campaign by the firm that helped install right-wing Toronto Mayor Rob Ford in office.

That all came at a cost that the Smart Tax Alliance still refuses to disclose -- and doesn't have to because the Clark government helpfully excluded mandatory financial reporting rules that apply to elections, initiatives and other referenda from the HST vote.

Spending limits were also not applied, leaving the sky the limit for STA propaganda.

That means voters will never know what the Coal Association, the Petroleum Producers, the Council of Forest Industries, the Mining Association, the New Car Dealers and others spent to try and win the referendum.

But with prime time STA television ads run through the Stanley Cup playoffs and top rated TV shows, it's highly likely that $10 to $20 million was spent.

BC's hungry film industry

Few were as unhappy as those from the $1 billion film and television industry, which helped lead the pro-HST charge.

Peter Leitch, chair of the Motion Picture Production Industry Association of BC and co-chair of the Smart Tax Alliance, said defeat of the HST was "a real blow."

"Now we are now going to have to go down to Los Angeles and tell them we won't have the benefits of the HST," he told the Sun, noting that the HST saved the industry $20-25 million a year.

But Leitch doesn't like talking about the already existing massive government subsidies given by the B.C. government to the industry.

Movie and television companies can get a basic 33 per cent tax credit on labour used while filming in B.C., plus up to 12 per cent more for shooting outside Vancouver. Digital animation and visual effects can get an extra 17.5 per cent tax credit too.

B.C.-owned companies can get even larger tax credits -- a basic 35 per cent break on qualified labour, distance incentives and a 30 per cent training credit.

Those taxpayer-funded incentives have amounted to nearly $200 million a year, leading to the question -- how much more does the film industry want from government?

Business was not united

But those are the HST winners in business. There were losers who will benefit when the HST is finally removed. 
Restaurant owners, hair stylists, consultants, home renovation and repair companies massage therapists, bicycle stores, gyms and other businesses all had to charge their customers an extra seven per cent tax for nothing.

Representatives of some of those business sectors were pleased.

"We're happy, very happy for the restaurant owners and we're really happy for the restaurant guests," Ian Tostenson, president of the BC Restaurant and Foodservices Association, told the Vancouver Sun. "This is going to give them a break."

"I'm very happy. They made my day today," fitness club owner Ron Zalko told CTV News on Friday .

Not listening to either voters or business owners hurt by the HST showed that those running the government were truly foolish, especially when poll after poll showed massive opposition to the HST.

That foolishness continued when the BC Liberals ignored Fight HST, the grassroots group I helped form with ex-premier Bill Vander Zalm, ex-Unity Party leader Chris Delaney and others, to oppose the tax.

Democracy wasn't for sale

The government also paid no attention to the phenomenal growth of my Facebook protest group NO BC HST, which skyrocketed to over 136,000 members in a few short months, briefly eclipsing even the Vancouver Canucks fan page.

They didn't believe Fight HST could possibly make the extremely difficult citizens initiative legislation work -- but it did, with 705,643 signatures gathered in 90 days in B.C.'s 85 ridings.

Then Premier Christy Clark rashly thought a $5 million government ad campaign, and a big business effort likely worth $15 to $20 million, plus an HST rate cut promise years away, could buy the vote.

Wrong again. The people weren't selling their democracy.

Despite being outspent by up to 100 to 1, Fight HST won a referendum with a handful of lawn signs and a few radio ads against an overwhelming government and business advertising blitz.

But had BC Liberals simply listened, Campbell would still be premier and Clark would only be running a radio talk show, not the province.

As Vander Zalm put it Friday: "The people of British Columbia stood the line against the biggest powers of this province and won. The little guy won today. This is one for the little guy."

Misinformation in the media


And despite 25 months of near constant debate and discussion of the HST, some in the media remain oblivious to the obvious and the facts.

For example, some have said the BC Liberals could have survived if Campbell had stuck to the Recall and Initiative Act rules instead of promising a binding, majority rule vote under the Referendum Act.

That's because the initiative provisions require 50 per cent plus one of all registered voters to approve -- not just the votes of those who return a ballot -- and a majority in two-thirds of all ridings.

By that extremely onerous standard, the HST would have been retained.

But those commentators forget that the Initiative Act provisions would not have made repealing the HST binding -- it would only have forced the government to introduce the Fight HST legislation to get rid of the tax into the Legislature -- but not even call it for a vote, let alone pass it.

Practically speaking however, should the vote have been conducted under the initiative provisions and passed with 55 to 45 per cent but not have met the "supermajority" conditions, the BC Liberals would still be in an enormous bind.

Would they reject the obvious majority vote of those participating and keep the HST in place but risking both immediate recall campaigns against their MLAs and political suicide whenever the next election took place? Or would they have had to ditch the HST anyway, aggravating business supporters who would claim they won because of the rules?

The California nightmare myth

And so much for B.C. turning into referendum-happy but broke California. There's no chance of that because of the difficulty of the initiative rules. But the province should make direct democracy more of an option for voters by improving the recall and initiative legislation as the BC Liberals promised to do in 2001.

Some in the media have also accepted as fact Finance Minister Kevin Falcon's claims that defeat of the HST leaves a "$3 billion hole" in B.C.'s budget.

But how was it that B.C. could promise to cut the HST to 11 per cent in 2012 and 10 per cent in 2014 without losing the roughly $1 billion per percentage point cut in the tax? How were they going to deal with that enormous cut to government revenues?

And much has been made of the one-time $1.6 billion grant from the federal Conservative government to impose the HST that will now have to be repaid.

The HST was already raising an extra $800 million a year, according to the government-appointed "independent panel" that reported on the HST -- which Campbell had promised was "revenue neutral" when it was introduced.

Some of that additional money can be used to pay back the apparently interest-free loan from Ottawa.

But who gives money for nothing? The federal government knew it would be making all that back and more over a short period of time in higher tax revenues.

And why did the government spend over $600 million on a new retractable roof for B.C. Place if it was worried about its finances, especially with the HST at risk? Or $3 billion on a new Port Mann Bridge instead of the cheaper option of expanding the existing structure?

Campbell's costly miscalculations

Now we will see how good a negotiator Clark and Falcon are, because B.C. should at least see that grant reduced by a pro-rated amount for the period of time the HST was in place -- likely two years by the time it's wrapped up -- or 40 per cent of the five year agreement.

The reality is that a desperate Gordon Campbell, who had told voters before the 2009 election that the B.C. deficit was no more than $495 million, was wrong by six-fold -- and knew he would be roasted for it.

He made a hasty deal with the Ottawa devil to try and buy his way out of financial trouble with the $1.6 billion grant.

And in his hubris, Campbell ignored all political warning signs, as did his government.

Only Peace River South MLA Blair Lekstrom -- who quit both cabinet and caucus to protest the way the HST was being rammed down British Columbians' throats -- could see the storm on the horizon as his constituents rebelled. And then he quickly jumped back into cabinet when Clark took over.

The HST referendum results are now history -- and a victory for democracy, against all the odds. [Tyee]

Bill Tieleman is a regular Tyee contributor who writes a column on B.C. politics every Tuesday in 24 Hours newspaper. E-mail him at weststar@telus.net or visit his blog.

77 Comments:

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  • zalm

    25 weeks ago

    Kudos

    This should be your finest article about your finest moment, Bill. Nothing here can be gainsayed.

    Well done.

  • paisley

    25 weeks ago

    Slice & Dice

    Very nicely served. Best read in along time.

  • Grumpy

    25 weeks ago

    One wonders if...............

    Gordon Campbell's new sinecure in London was part of the secret HST agreement between Campbell and Harper?

    Also, I think that the BC Liberal party should anti up any deficits as the result of the HST fiasco. They brought it in with no public debate, they should pay the costs. I think their re-election war chest should be a good start.

  • Cool Hand

    25 weeks ago

    New Ipsos Poll - Scrapping HST NEGATIVE on BC Economy

    "In your opinion, what will be the impact of scrapping the HST and returning to the GST/PST system on the overall BC economy?"

    Negative - 49%
    Positive - 17%

    Interesting.

  • Grouchy

    25 weeks ago

    Why ????

    Why will it take two years to undo the HST when it was implemented almost overnight as it were ? A last gasp at gouging the voters as punishment ? Thanks for all of your good work Bill and friends.

  • jimorsheryl

    25 weeks ago

    I think the real story

    behind the rejection of the HST is the simple fact the average person has pretty much reached their limit on the amount of taxes they can afford to pay. This was the rare opportunity when something could actually be done about it rather than just bitching in the letters to the editor section of your local paper, or favourite blog.
    Time and again, governments have been elected saying one thing and then doing as they please with no real recourse open to the public.
    This is a rare victory for democracy, but I wonder how long it will last? Will the population just doze off again as the next bunch do as they please???

  • raging senior

    25 weeks ago

    WELL WRITTEN - BILL

    The Liberals and their supporter just don't get it, Falcon is still playing the fear game and Clarke is letting him. The Liberal supporters that have said that anyone that voted YES were morons and should not be allowed to reproduce let alone vote on any money matters if you do not have a degree in economics, there were many more and worse comments. These people should look at where the vote for YES came from and that was not the RICH AND GREEDY BLIND LIBERAL SUPPORTERS.

  • Camero409

    25 weeks ago

    Cool Hand

    Found some new employment yet? I can't wait for the PAB's to get fired after the next election. I hear McDonalds is hiring because when the HST is revoked they expect a boom in business. Write lots of resumes.

    Tell me this spoof glad hand, how, in 2001 just before this corrupt bunch took over, were the NDP able to make the largest downpayment on BC's debt, balance the 3 previous budgets and leave 2 billion for the crooks to give away after the election with just that lowly useless PST/GST? Magic? or good fiscal management? Good fiscal management is something this corrpt bunch don't have a clue about.

  • snert

    25 weeks ago

    California

    "And so much for B.C. turning into referendum-happy but broke California. There's no chance of that because of the difficulty of the initiative rules. But the province should make direct democracy more of an option for voters by improving the recall and initiative legislation as the BC Liberals promised to do in 2001."

    Ummm? More "direct democracy" is the problem in California is it not?

  • Frank

    25 weeks ago

    Good points Bill

    This government has rung up massive deficits and overall debt for their pet projects and corporate friends so its a just a bit rich them complaining that killing the HST will hurt the province financially.

    Somehow we managed just fine without it for 6 decades.

  • Fiat lux

    25 weeks ago

    It should be emphasized that

    It should be emphasized that the crfime was not harmonization, but the expansion of taxation onto hundreds of items not taxed before, that increased the tax load on the public, not to 12%, but probably 16 or 18%.

    Now while we're on the subject of arbitrary taxation, without public consultation, how about starting to raise the question of the amounts forced on the public's shoulders by the "free trade" rackets, without any public inputs, referendums?

    These treaties have little to do with "trade", but are hidden taxation through the elimination of democratic rights for protection against exploitation and the sale of the country from under the public's feet.
    E.g. Housing and the ownership of homes.

    Ed Deak.

  • raging senior

    25 weeks ago

    Once again, good article Bill and good comments-

    GoolBand--your paid time should be just about at an end. Just think, the province is broke but we can afford to pay tweeters, bloggers, and comment posters. You must be one of those with a cathater permanently attached.
    Now we should do something about the Carbon Tax that is collected and given to large Corps to become energy efficient instead of giving it to the schools to become energy efficient--HST is done--Carbon Tax next

  • bob1964

    25 weeks ago

    Possibly it's time to get

    Possibly it's time to get rid of ICBC and BC liquor stores to help pay off the short fall.
    Payback is a bitch.

  • RickW

    25 weeks ago

    snert

    There you are again (or should I say still?).
    Check out the demographics around Prop. 13 in California (as well as those in Arizona) before you admonish "direct democracy".

  • Vox.Pop

    25 weeks ago

    Great Analysis & Proposition 15

    Superb analysis, Bill. Let the PAB puppets twist in the wind - their days are numbered. As Pete McMartin said in last Saturday's "Sun", the pro-HST crowd overwhelmingly suffer from hubris - the arrogance that they are always right & the common people are fools. These types of people really hate democracy because they are in the minority at the top of the money pyramid they helped build; if the other 40% of the citizens who never vote (at the bottom of the pyramid) were to realize that YES, we can change the system then the years of privilege will be over for ever.

    Now let's put Falcon's feet to the fire and EXPLAIN why it's going to take so long to reverse the HST & provide a detailed breakdown of his phony $3 billion cost 'estimate'. The PST was the tax system BC had for 65 years so we are all very experienced with it.

    Finally, let's not hear about the California Property Tax Initiative as an example of the poor effects of direct democracy. This was a sneaky campaign by the rich to set up a permanent tax advantage by including a clause that it would take a 65% 'super-majority' to reverse it, when it only needed a simple majority of the vote to pass it: this alone should have been enough to have Prop 15 rejected as unconstitutional but the US judges are also part of the problem.

  • Fiat lux

    25 weeks ago

    I've lived in England from

    I've lived in England from 1948 to 55, when the "rich" were taxed up to 90% by the
    "Godless socialists", while I was able to take several courses at Cambridge for next to nothing, there was great housing shortage, but no homelessness and no foodbanks, or unemployment.

    Now all governments are fighting each other on who can cut more taxes for the rich, we have great homelessness, almost a million lining up at the foodbanks, it takes students many years to pay of their student loans and public debts are going ballistic.

    Somebody should start programs to educate some young people to become economists who can add 2 +2 = ?

    Ed Deak.

  • snert

    25 weeks ago

    RickW

    Go back and read the part of my post that is in quotations. Just in case you missed it Mr Tieleman wrote it. Seems even he can see the that California has a reputation for not being able to get more 'direct democracy' to work well.

    More 'direct democracy' is bad in California but it will never happen here. Yeah, right! Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.

    I wonder what the calls would have been for if the HST was voted in, less 'direct democracy'?

  • Norman Farrell

    25 weeks ago

    Stumbling Liberals paint voters as dumb fools

    The government party learned little from the HST exercise. That is apparent from the comments of trolls here at The Tyee but also from statements elsewhere by politicians and pundits suggesting a majority of voters were misled and failed to understand what was behind the tax policy.

    Liberal supporters tried unsuccessfully to apply bad guy labels to Vander Zalm, Tieleman and others but the anti-HST effort was a grass roots movement more effective than any other in recent years. Given that fact, it will be unproductive politically to state or imply those voting to extinguish HST were ignorant and foolish.

    Instead, explain the benefit of transferring billions from pockets of consumers to accounts of multi-national extractive industrials. Explain also how the treasury takes a near term hit when HST will continue at the old 12%, not the promised 10%. Admit also why the feds, with 3 out 5 years of the tax agreement fulfilled, will not moderate the amount of transition payment to be returned.

    Remind us too how a "revenue neutral" change in consumption tax ended up costing mom and pop consumers hundreds of million each year. Was that accidental or was the original statement Liberal truthiness.

    Personally, I would like an admission that Elections BC took a partisan role in the campaign and that continued until Friday's theatre of delivering vote results to the Legislature when the substance had already been widely circulated.

    http://northerninsights.blogspot.com/2011/08/elections-bc-and-charade-of-secrecy.html

  • shedding_light

    25 weeks ago

    I agree with Ed Deak on both counts...

    Ed expressed exactly my first reaction to the HST; the harmonization is not what we objected to. It is the unreasonable increase on many items and services that are basic needs, not luxuries. Adding 7% to the labour portion of vehicle and other essential repairs and services, especially for low income citizens, the disabled, and seniors, is a huge budget wrecker. I no longer feel I can afford to pay such labour costs so I do without many services I need. I also feel I can't afford to buy yarn to knit my own sweaters and other items. As a person on disability, the added 7%, not charged under PST/GST, makes the cost of the finished garment prohibitive. I won't buy the cheaper, mass-produced articles because they are such poor quality and I want to make my own. This has seriously impacted the quality and enjoyment of my life.

    Multiply these two examples by all of the little things that affect each of us to some extent, and they aren't so little any more. Each of us are affected differently, but most of us are affected negatively. The attempt to make up the harm by handing out small cheques to some just complicates things and confuses people about the issues. One quite legitimate issue is: do we govern ourselves through a democratic system or do we 'elect' dictators chosen by political parties we have no meaningful relationship with?

    I never understood why the PST exemptions couldn't be and weren't simply retained. Probably because there wasn't the will. The 'hidden agenda' was clearly to get more money from the taxpayer, make control and profit more and more in the hands of big business and corporations, and hope we wouldn't notice. AS IF! I'm pleased that enough citizens are not as gullible or stupid as Campbell and Co. thought we were. I would have been very disappointed if everyone had just sighed and carried on, as we already do too often.

    This could be a turning point, IF we choose to make it one. If we insist on having permanent electoral offices in our communities and neighbourhoods, we can elect accountable MLAs & MPs, with votes we can change when we need to, plus we can propose and support Citizens' Initiatives followed by BINDING Referenda on issues we choose. This arrangement would be convenient and inexpensive. Self-government doesn't have to be expensive or impossible. Wouldn't we all learn more quickly from our own mistakes than we have from the 'mistakes' and bad governance (fiscal, social, political, international) that ALL political parties have made on our behalf but without any meaningful relationship or accountability to us?

    Self-governance should be an essay question, not multiple choice. Each of us has a unique point of view and unique needs that are as important and relevant as anyone else's. I keep hearing politicians of all stripes saying they want to include us, but they don't give us the infrastructure to make that possible. So we have to create it for ourselves.

  • marcerickson

    25 weeks ago

    Old Port Mann bridge can't be upgraded...

    ...because the footings are being washed away. Source: new bridge site worker.

  • Frank Lee

    25 weeks ago

    HST deserved to Win, Liberals Deserved to Lose

    The idea of single, administratively-efficient consumption tax, set at a lower rate albeit over a broader range of goods, at a rate (10%) that everyone can calculate in their heads in an instant, was a good one. Too bad it was politically mangled by the Liberals from start to finish. (See

    http://markcrawford.blogspot.com/2011/08/how-should-i-vote-on-hst-very-good.html )

    BC should have an HST of @ 10% and Alberta an HST of 7-8%. Maybe Bill thinks we can get all the revenue we need from higher corporate taxes and more progressive income taxes; I for one doubt it.

    What we should NOT have is a habit of setting tax policies by referenda. Just look at what that has done to California.

  • shedding_light

    25 weeks ago

    Ed also pointed out the 'free trade' connection...

    Ed speaks for me again in his remarks about the 'free trade' deals. These are definitely not in our best interest as citizens, or in the best interest of the citizens of other nations. They are another example of undermining the sovereignty of all citizens (both collective and individual self-determination), their democracy (self-government), and their connection and healthy relationship to, literally, the land beneath their feet.

    You can't have a home if you have no land you can stand on or build it on. We all need a place where we 'belong.' We will be increasingly excluded from access to our country's land and resources if global corporations continue to 'own' more and more. Allowing this is absurd. It points to a long-developing disconnect from a healthy understanding of citizenship.

    Every person needs to be part of a community that is land-based. There needs to be a 'Commons' and everyone must have access to and share the basic necessities of life, starting with clean air, water, and the freedom to make a living from the resources of the ecosystem of which one is a part. This can mean growing one's food, hunting, fishing, or whatever one is able to do for oneself or in cooperation with others to meet our needs. Some of these are personal needs, unique to the individual, and some are shared needs, like the need to exchange goods and services with each other in an orderly and fair way.

    Each person, according to their ability and inclination, needs to be permitted to contribute to and benefit from the exchange of goods and services within one's community and with other communities. It's a question of having healthy relationships, and the 'free trade' relationships are NOT healthy.

    Thank you for bringing this issue into the discussion, Ed!

  • Norman Farrell

    25 weeks ago

    "...The 'hidden agenda' was

    "...The 'hidden agenda' was clearly to get more money from the taxpayer, make control and profit more and more in the hands of big business and corporations, and hope we wouldn't notice...."

    Thank you 'shedding-light' for a clear statement. The BC Finance Ministry has many well paid professionals who would have had a very clear idea as to the effects on revenue when HST replaced PST. The extra revenue earned by applying the tax broadly and removing exemptions that previously existed was no surprise to the people who prepared the financial models.

    While the civil servants predicted the results, the politicians, Campbell, Hansen et al, closed their eyes and ears and stuck with the politically expedient story that was revenue neutrality.

    The Liberals are demonstrating now that they still are willing to ignore reality and talk only with words they believe help their political aims. Truth and accuracy matters little to this bunch, which is why the whole group of Liberal MLA must be sent off into the sunset, permanently.

  • gsarahs

    25 weeks ago

    Many thanks Bill!

    Many thanks to the three of you and your supporters for all the effort put in to defeat this tax and teach the government a much needed lesson. Excellent article Bill.

    After awhile, it got to the point where I stopped paying any attention to the lies and distortions of the NO side. What is really pathetic are those who just can't accept that they lost the vote, and then insult the 55% who voted YES to rid us of this unilateral tax shift onto the voters'backs. My view is that the NO people really were brainwashed. Get over it!

  • fed-up

    25 weeks ago

    HST Victory

    Man, ya just gotta love the way Tieleman uses percentages! With the defeat of the HST by a factor of 55% to 44%, it was declared a 'victory for democracy'. With the STV referendum, the 'yes' defeated the 'no' side by a factor of 59% to 41% and was declared a 'victory for the no side': Tieleman, of course, supported the no side and probably pocketed some serious government cash for the leadership role he played in the referendum's defeat—how much cash, has yet to be declared publically by Tieleman.

    These antics by Tieleman and his association with VanderZalm and Delaney are an embarrassment to our party, and the sooner the NDP distances itself from these three anti-tax zealots, the better off we'll all be.

  • RickW

    25 weeks ago

    How Did We Ever Survive Prior to July 2010?

    http://www.timescolonist.com/opinion/Leyne+defeat+good+banks+poor/5326717/story.html

    And more importantly, where is even the hint of bounty after a year of increased efficiency and prosperity? Or is this one of those mantras intoned by governments that chant "be patient, all in good time, sometime in the next few years, down the road a bit, after the present econommic challenges"?

  • Skywalker

    25 weeks ago

    Nice to watch the squirming.

    What was really interesting to watch after the HST vote was the whiners pulling numbers out of their heinies as though they were facts. Falcon, Winter, Clark all of them even the premier of Ontario. It was enjoyable to watch. I suspect that we will now really get to see the financial state of the province and just how important the HST was in their attempt to cover their mismanagement.

    So they drag up the STV vote as a red herring and do everything they can to avoid the real message it sends.

  • Jerry Munro

    25 weeks ago

    The "Key Lesson"... Of a Coming Sea Change.

    First, I share Ed Deak's views on the "harmonization" issue. It is the entire issue of passing on more and more taxation share to the working class consumer/taxpayer that is the issue. But even more significant here, in terms of passing on a "key lesson" to the ruling powers that be, is that when considered alongside the recent Federal election result, there is indicated a major shift underway in the larger public mood.

    Electing the NDP to official opposition status for the first time in our national political history, is a dam buster in my view. I and others may think that the NDP is just another "liberal" party, really of the status quo, and not radical or threatening to capitalism in any real sense at all. But the point is, the average Canadian thinks quite otherwise. Those changing and about to change their vote, in fact, think they are doing something quite "daring", even radical, And coupled with turning back this regressive tax in BC, you have a quite significant shift in popular political attitudes about to occur... has already.

    It is this that suddenly has the Conservative Party and Harper, all of a sudden looking and acting a little unsure of themselves... gushing with "considerate" noises. They sense this coming shift at least as much as I, with all their screaming and opportunist political instincts.

    It would be reading too much into all this of course, if one actually thinks that the NDP is the kind of a political movement that is really likely to be a major game changer. They are not. They are, and likely will even more so, be just another Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition... within the capitalist status quo. But the Canadian people, I suggest, have indicated, that they are in the least certainly hoping that they will prove to be more than this. Otherwise they would have simply re-voted Liberal, in the classic historical pattern of Canadian politics. And this is the point. (And the role of Quebec in all this of course, is no small matter. It alone is a game changer... breaking with The Bloc.)

    So, I suggest, we need to all be paying attention here, over the coming months and years. The dam is bust, and the Little NDP Dutch Boy with his finger in the dike of capitalism, is about to be carried along by forces bigger than it right now knows or understands. (And, in my view, the Liberal Party really will split right and "social democratic left" here, very soon.)

    It's what comes "after" here, still yet a ways on, but drawing ever closer, that I suggest, in the end, is going to be of far greater importance... to capitalism and democracy both.

  • Frank Lee

    25 weeks ago

    "shedding Light" makes a Good Point

    "I never understood why the PST exemptions couldn't be and weren't simply retained. Probably because there wasn't the will. The 'hidden agenda' was clearly to get more money from the taxpayer,..."

    --EXACTLY. Somehow France and Sweden manage to be two of the most egalitarian societies on Earth, despite getting half of their revenue from the VAT. I would propose that people buying housing be exempted from HST on the first $200,000 of the purchase price; that renters be exempt from the first $500 of their rent, and so on.

    I think that taxing consumption, capital gains, and unearned income more, and good old fashioned wages and salaries relatively less, improves the overall incentives and efficiency in the economy. And with OECD corporate tax rates (combined local and national) falling to around 20%, there won't be a lot of room to "make the rich pay", either.

    As for referenda. Campbell resorted to this device for the same general rason he did in 2002 over native rights: to wriggle out of a corner that he had painted himself into. It's not a good device for finding efficiencies or balancing priorities, as the contradictory poll data (Cool Hand's Ipsos poll, cited above) perfectly illustrates.

  • sunshine coast girl

    25 weeks ago

    What's with Tostenson?

    He wouldn't commit to the YES side when asked. Wouldn't commit to the NO side. Talk about sitting on the fence. If I was the restaurant members of the association, I'd be telling him to take a hike and looking for a new President.

  • Fiat lux

    25 weeks ago

    The interesting, and most

    The interesting, and most ridiculous part of these tax cuts to corporations, to make them more "competitive", while raising taxes to the public shows that the public has to pay for that so called "competitiveness" that's supposed to cut, but in reality, increases costs.

    When will people realize that costs can not be cut, only transferred on others ?

    Cost cutting and wealth creation have been the causes of all wars, colonizations and mass murders and ethnic cleansing in history.

    Is this so difficult to understand ? This is not a theory, but an unbreakable physical reality.

    Costs always remain the same and the purpose of economic theories and ideologies, also of religions in the past, has always been the justification and legalization of the transfer of real costs on others, or the ecology.

    This HST racket was an excellent example.

    Ed Deak

  • igbymac

    25 weeks ago

    I find it interesting to note

    that the rich is Europe are now suggesting they pay more tax.

    http://blogs.wsj.com/wealth/2011/08/23/frances-rich-say-tax-us-more/

    Clearly they are getting frightened for their own personal safety as the people everywhere are getting restless, tired of the incessant crime wave from above. The HST is just another incarnation of the crime.

    Money is power, for the elite; but so is the lack of money, for the people. Was this enough to set off an eruption across Canada? I think not. But it is a tremor, for sure.

    As for the opening quote where our 'vote' is the real power, this is not 1920. Our vote will ONLY regain meaning when we put honest people into positions of trust -- people beholden first and foremost to the electorate.

    But more than that, these people will only become effective for us common folks when they abandon the 'selective commodification of value of a for profit, finance-based economy' paradigm and start looking out for the people's longterm well-being.

  • Okanagan Orchardist

    25 weeks ago

    I didn't see too many comments about the next 18 months....

    The gov't will go on collecting approximately $70-$75 million a month for the next 18 months from the HST. That amounts to about $1.3 billion to $1.35 billion. That makes up a good chunk of the payback required by the federal gov't. The month of August should actually be included so that is another $75 million collected. So with an immediate corporate tax increase of perhaps .005% points, we might get out of this without losing our collective shirts.

  • Tieleman

    25 weeks ago

    Bill Tieleman responds to comments - with mostly thanks

    First - many thanks for the kind comments here about my column and my role in Fight HST's efforts to defeat this grossly unfair tax.

    Second - to Fed-Up - I have not been paid one thin dime by the government funding for my work with Fight HST - nice try - I have volunteered my time, as have Bill Vander Zalm, Chris Delaney, board members and many others.

    I would also note that every single NDP riding voted to repeal the HST - so much for "embarrassing our party" - as if you were really an NDPer anyway. Many BC Liberal ridings also voted Yes - 60 of 85 ridings in total.

    Third - California's proposition situation is a very complex issue I hope to write about soon - but the short answer is that big money rules in that state - not its citizens. We can improve BC's legislation without giving up democracy to business or other well-funded interests.

    Fourth - there is no way of giving PST exemptions under an HST tax regime - it defeats the purpose of taxing more consumer goods and services and giving the proceeds to big business. The BC Liberals also used most of their 5% HST exemptions to exclude gasoline and fuel from the HST - very green thinking of course!

    Lastly, don't be swayed by those who could care less about BC's worst child poverty level in Canada for 7 years saying the HST helped the poor - the strongest votes to repeal were in the poorest ridings - they ain't stupid - while the strongest votes to keep the HST were in West Vancouver and other rich ridings. Go figure.

  • Fiat lux

    25 weeks ago

    Bill....By the "rich" areas

    Bill....By the "rich" areas voting for the HST, do you think that it may just be possible that "Wealth can not be created, only taken..."?

    History is nothing but a chronicle of the examples of takings and the takers doing everything possible, including the mass murder of millions, to protect their takings.

    The HST was nothing more than the legalization of takings. Used to be called theft in uneducated times.

    Ed Deak.

  • fed-up

    25 weeks ago

    re Tieleman's respnse

    I guess when you ride with the likes of VanderZalm for any length of time, shooting from the lip becomes SOP. I didn`t state that you made money fighting the HST; I stated you made money fighting the STV and have yet to publically reveal the amount.

    Like you, I`ve been a supporter of the NDP almost all of my adult life; unlike you, I always worked as an unpaid volunteer.

  • Jerry Munro

    25 weeks ago

    Costs and Consequences I...

    "When will people realize that costs can not be cut, only transferred on others ?

    Cost cutting and wealth creation have been the causes of all wars, colonizations and mass murders and ethnic cleansing in history." Fait Lux

    When you're hot, you're hot Ed. :-)

    Igbymac writes: "I find it interesting to note
    that the rich is Europe are now suggesting they pay more tax."

    And even some voices in the US ruling class, such as Warren Buffet most notably. Which is always the case in such periods as this, when some, especially more "liberal" elements of the ruling class begin to realize that capitalism is in a fight for its very continued survival. (And no doubt, some even begin to have some "sympathy" for the working class.)

    This element of the ruling class comes to finally understand that you can't keep passing costs and taxation onto, and impoverishing the working class/consumer, without coming very quickly to that point where it becomes impossible to sell your product and realize your profit. The "free market" begins to shut down. You begin to kill the very goose that lays your golden eggs.

    These are the, unfortunately extremely small in number, not totally blinded by immediate "self-interest" element of the ruling class, who see further into the future consequences of current policies. And in the case of Europe, in such places as Germany, France, Italy, Spain and elsewhere, they have already had one or more near brush with death by revolution of the working class masses. So they, the European ruling class, older and wiser, tend to more quickly recognize the signs of impending doom, if there is no course change.

    Indeed, it was this reality threat, again more largely in Europe, during the last Great Depression and after post WW2. over the Cold War years, that led capitalism to go along with the creation of the Social Democratic State of capitalism. Some now, beginning to realize that this dismantling is coming to mean no less a coming end of capitalism in all possibility, would now, it seems, like to go back to that more socially conscious, more regulated State Capitalism time. (Even though they finally turned on the postwar Social Democratic State in the late 1970s, for fear of dying and "socialism" resulting anyway, by a thousand reform cuts.

    continued next post...

  • Jerry Munro

    25 weeks ago

    Cost and Consequences II...

    continuing from previous post...

    The ruling class of capitalism everywhere is increasingly caught between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea... damned if they do, and damned if they don't. All elements of the ruling class seem to be coming to realize this. Only the "liberal" ruling class seems willing to more or less make a peace with it all. The other neo-conservative fascist element of the ruling class seems more Hell bent on, like Ghadaffi, fighting to the last bullet and drop of blood. (At least the last bullet and drop of blood of that working class element which will actually fight for it... They, themselves of course, will like Ghadaffi again, most, sue for peace short of "their" actual death. :-) It's the ruling class way.

    We'll have to see who finally wins out, in this internal ruling class "difference of opinion". Thus far, it is the fascist element by a head, with the timidity and co-operation of the liberal/social democratic element in capitalist economics and politics.

  • G West

    25 weeks ago

    fed-up

    Your conclusion is unwarranted. I think Tieleman is entitled to the benefit of the doubt relative to his 'volunteer' work for both the HST and STV.

    If you haven't got any more evidence than what you've posted above me I think you're the one who's "Shooting from the Lip".

  • lasnomadas

    25 weeks ago

    Fed-up

    Frankly, I'm fed up with sore losers on this comment board and others.

    To Bill Tieleman, Bill VanderZalm, Chris Delaney and all the volunteers who worked so tirelessly to bring a bit of democracy back to BC: We done good, didn't we?

  • Joe Public

    25 weeks ago

    Reason For The HST ?

    There hasn't been much discussion about why Campbell moved so quickly and callously to implement the HST.

    Campbell's government was $3B in debt when he won the election and he needed to make up that debt before the Liberals could face a future election. Campbell gambled and established the HST without discussion and without the exemptions that were attached to the PST, assuming that the public would not notice the elimination of the exemptions and that the increased revenue was his ladder out of his self-created pool of red ink. Campbell established the HST to aid his own personal political survival as much as to improve BC’s businesses.

    The Liberal government has driven the province into debt because they lowered the corporate tax rate far too low to support provincial fiscal commitments. This new Liberal system worked well when the province was booming, but it didn`t have a chance when the BC economy returned to normal. They could have rectified the policy problem by increasing the corporate tax rate but that would have alienated their corporate donors. Instead they chose to implement the HST, which alienated the working people and caused it to fail.

    So where do we go from here?

    During the HST debate, the Liberals offered to increase the corporate tax rate, but this is not a choice the Liberals would make willingly. The reason presented to us for the implementation of the HST was to assist business. We were told that the HST was revenue neutral and would make business more effective. So Campbell, the BC Liberals, and their corporate donors took a gamble by implementing the HST, a gamble that they lost. It would seem that the people who gambled, should be the people that pay for their mistake.

    The corporate tax rate should be raised by 2% immediately in order to repay the debt incurred by the rejection of the HST, and the corporate tax rate should be made to float with the economy of BC. Once the province is back in a surplus position, the corporate tax rate can be lowered by 1% until the province is no longer in debt. Once the province is no longer in debt, the corporate tax rate can be further reduced by the original 2%, or even more.

    This proposed policy is about more than paying off the cost of the failed HST. It is a balance and for the first time in BC history, the working people of the province and the businesses of the province will no longer be in opposition. All sides will have the common goal of making this province better. The reward to the working people will be a soundly run province capable of providing the services that taxpayers require. The reward to business will be a reduction of the corporate tax rate, but only when the province is healthy and capable.

    When we all work together, we all win.

  • Jerry Munro

    25 weeks ago

    Joe Public misses by a mile...

    "When we all work together, we all win." Joe (assumed) Public

    Except THEY, the ruling class, win MORE, of course. :-) A dreaming in Technicolour, if classic NDP "feel good" thought, Joe P..

    The other reality being, if the damage was "neutral" or held to the "gamblers only", you might actually have a rationale... of sorts. The Gamblers to Casino Capitalism however, damage mostly their employees and Joe Public customers, who wind up on the street and broke/robbed... while the Gambler most typically, actually gets away or with a Conrad Black slap on the wrist, to gamble with people's money and lives again, again and again.

    So, cute but largely transparent bullshit. Though there is "some" merit in your proposal to tax "the corporate sector", to pay for the HST debacle. The flaw is, they will merely pass on the cost to the consumer/working class anyway.

    I suggest it be taken directly out of the personal coffers, by whatever means, of the top 1-2% Super Rich Corporate Mafioso crime families... with a legitimate case that the Liberal Party coffers be also seriously tapped... This latter being the major beneficiary of corporate mafia largess, and those who carried and shot their interest/policy arrows into the "public interest" pocketbook heart.

    Again, when we all work together, as in unions and the working class carrying the bags of the ruling class willingly, THEY win, WE lose... in this game of social democratic class collaboration, that has been going on for too long now. And which has brought us to here in the first place.

  • Fiat lux

    25 weeks ago

    With bank deregulation money

    With bank deregulation money has become:

    "A licence for the control of energy, issued by a special interest sector for its own benefit"

    In the good old days colonization was accomplished with the force/energy of arms, and the waving of religious scriptures, claiming licence by the Will of God.

    Now, the same colonization, which is the control of resources and energy from abroad, is done with the perceived power/energy of non existing, imaginary money, "created" from the air by some banks.

    We could say that in spite of the terrible damage done to the environment and the people by this imaginary money, in this country alone, the funny part is when the new power elite of the slave driver countries bring our own imaginary money back to buy the country up from under our feet, welcomed by our governments as "wealth creating foreign investors" .

    Where are the brain testing machines, when we need them?

    Ed Deak.

  • fed-up

    25 weeks ago

    G West

    Good for you, G West, in giving Tieleman the benefit of the doubt. As for me, I gave up drinking the Kool-Aid dispensed from Tieleman`s backroom after witnessing his defence of FPTP in May, 2005. I`m sure you remember that display of democracy in action when Tieleman more or less declared a `victory over the STV` with 41% of the popular vote.

    His December, 2010 prediction of an election in June and calling Jack Layton to task for siding with the Liberals and precipitating the last federal election simply reinforced the correctness of my decision to ignore the `wisdom` of Bill Tieleman.

    Why anyone would take this guy seriously is beyond me.

    Enough said. I`m done!

  • G West

    24 weeks ago

    fed-up

    You're not dealing with the issue YOU introduced – to wit - that Tieleman has been "profiteering" while you've been a selfless volunteer.

    I voted for the STV both times even though I think it's far from the best electoral system.

    My side lost too - but I'm not so bitter and twisted that I need to make up things about the other side.

    The rules, something I also disagreed with, set the bar at 60%...again, that's not Tieleman's fault and his side WAS victorious - exactly as he said: WE DO NOT HAVE ELECTORAL REFORM - they won - get over it!

    As for your point about the 'results' of the May federal election, I think it's a bit too early to tell what the final outcome for the NDP and the country will be - I think 4 years of Conservative majority government was what Tieleman was concerned about. I am too.
    And so should you be:

    Maybe you missed the fact that Pee Wee 'won' that election too.

    I've had my disagreements with Tieleman over the years (as he'll tell you), but that hardly justifies someone like you, hiding behind an anonymous handle, attacking him with innuendo and idle speculation.

  • Tieleman

    24 weeks ago

    Bill Tieleman - not a dime from debate - STV or HST

    Fed-Up - I misread your claims of me making my fortune off the STV referendum - but you are wrong again. Government funding rules for the 2009 referendum on the ridiculous STV system were very clear. In fact, I lost an enormous amount of my time on that campaign as well as the HST campaign - and therefore wasn't working for my business as a result.

    I'm not whining because both results were well worth it - but having the likes of you berate me with false, unsubstantiated information that I have previously refuted here during the post-STV vote is aggravating.

    As to why you should take me seriously - that's up to you but I have a winning track record of three consecutive provincial referendums, and have endorsed winning candidates from Larry Campbell to Jack Layton's leadership campaign to Gregor Robertson's mayoralty campaign to Adrian Dix's leadership campaign.

    You love the STV - we get that. But it's over.

  • John Corman

    24 weeks ago

    Bill Tieleman

    Bill Tieleman stated:
    "...the strongest votes to repeal were in the poorest ridings - they ain't stupid - while the strongest votes to keep the HST were in West Vancouver and other rich ridings"

    When I first heard the results (less than 55%)I was very impressed with my fellow citizens. Those voting to keep the tax were those that were going to pay a disproportionally larger share of the tax.

    Consider what the results would have been if we had a referendum in the mid nineties to reduce the NDP imposed tax rates by, say, 10%. I'm willing to bet that the outcome would be in the order of at least 70%.

    Those citizens in those poor ridings were, in many cases, exempt from the tax. Some, actually, many, will be paying more, on a net basis, under the new/old PST system. I wouldn't use the word "stupid" to describe their actions, but, ignorant certainly comes to mind.

  • happy

    24 weeks ago

    Easy there Tieleman

    Your going to hurt something patting yourself on the back so hard.
    Your "winning track record" failed to mention four failed Recall campaigns.
    http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2011/01/18/DontLikeRecall/

  • G West

    24 weeks ago

    easy there happy

    How many 'failed' recall campaigns were there under Kevin Falcon?

    Maybe you've forgotten (it's certain that John Corman has) that not a single NDP MLA during the Clark years was ever recalled by anyone.

    In fact, I'm sure you remember that Kevvy was the driving force behind something he called "TOTAL RECALL" that he dreamed up with some of his bright friends from Surrey in 1999.

    Falcon organized Total Recall, a campaign to recall every NDP MLA in Glen Clark’s government.

    In fact, and as a fella from the Island you must remember this John Corman, Recall has had only ONE success (muted though it is because he resigned before he would have been forced to quit) and that's a BC Liberal MLA from Parksville called Paul Reitsma.

    A friend of yours John?

  • G West

    24 weeks ago

    Oh and John

    Consider what the results of the HST referendum 'might' have been if we hadn't been living through the most regressive and unfair taxation regime here in British Columbia for the past 10 years.

    Let me spell it out for you:

    In the year 2000 most BC households paid about the same total tax rate, with households in the top 10% and top 1% paying a little more. But, by 2010 the tax system had become thoroughly regressive, with the richest 20% of households paying a lower total tax rate than the rest.

    Add to that the disproportionate impact of increases in fees such as the MSP on the less well off and the carbon tax and it's not so hard to see why the shift from business to consumers that came with the HST was the straw that broke the voters' backs.

    Why wouldn't the 23 ridings who actually voted more than 50% to keep the tax tend to be 'wealthier' than the others?

    Those are the same people Campbell has been delivering goodies to in spades for the last 10 years - of course they're not upset by a tax that hits the same people they've been dumping on all their lives.

  • happy

    24 weeks ago

    Thanks so much West

    But I didn't need the history lesson on Warren Betanko.
    But you do my friend. No BC Liberal has ever been recalled.
    Reitsma was kicked out of the Liberal caucus when his dirty political tricks were exposed.
    He was an Independant when he resigned.

  • G West

    24 weeks ago

    @happy

    What was he when he did the things that got all those Parksville folks to sign that petition?

    He was a Campbell Liberal - doing exactly the same kind of mind-fucking, cheating and vote fixing that Dave Basi, Erik Bornman(n) and Co honed to a fine art when the Liberals came to power.

    But really, I think Kevvie's Total Recall gets the academy award over Tieleman's "failures"...In fact, Tieleman's record is pretty good - given the hurdles that have to be crossed going down that road.

    The HST will soon be gone - after Ms Christy manages to collect it for another few months and we don't have the STV.

    I'd say Tieleman's record would be pretty respectable in political history - and damn fine as a batting record in baseball.

    Have a nice weekend.

  • John Corman

    24 weeks ago

    Valentine Cards and kisses for The Bills(Tielman/Vanderzalm)

    Many of you will not be aware of this fact. Many businesses and business people are going to be better off in 2013 thanks to the Bills.

    Personally, I'll be sending them a thank you note from a beach somewhere as I will save, on a net basis with my business about enough for a little vacation.

    But, here are the real winners. In the GST/HST regime there are various types of Supplies (business revenue) provided to customers. One type is termed "Exempt Supplies". That means that the business does not charge GST/HST on its sales nor can it recover the sales taxes that it pays. So, the implementation of the HST in BC cost these businesses significant amounts of taxes for which they could not recoup.
    The reversal back to the PST will save them considerable taxes.
    The following businesses love the Bills.
    Banks
    Insurance companies
    Pharmacies
    Any medical business. I think that the doctors are one fo the biggest benefactor of the Bills' actions. In 2013 their business doesn't have to pay the extra 7% on many items and neither do they personally. Also they are the types that purchase new homes with the additional taxes.

    The losers are likely the poor who will have to absorb the PST with no corresponding rebates.

    So, to respond to Mr Tielman's reference to West Vancouver voting to keep the HST I would argue that they, like myself, voted to keep the tax even though we were worse off than under the PST system. It's just the best way to pay for health care etc.

  • happy

    24 weeks ago

    You know West...

    We can just go tit for tat here forever.
    OK then, Rietsma was a Campbell Liberal before he was booted out of the caucus.
    What was Gableman when he signed a false affadavit? What was Dix when he forged a memo to file? We won't even start on Moe and his "stipend" paid under the table by the BC Fed, never mind his multiple disbarments with the law society. Were they kicked out of caucus?
    They all have dirty hands, the whole works! Never mind STV, a better use of our time would be coming up with a mechanism to keep and hold politicians honest and accountable between elections. I go through a Performace Review twice a year and my compensation reflects what I'm graded by. Thats just a silly thought of course to think that could be applied to politicians - or any government worker for that matter - but we can dream!
    I'll be working all weekend but thanks anyway, cheers to the West family.

  • G West

    24 weeks ago

    Whoosh!

    And here I thought you were talking about Tieleman's batting average!

    When someone changes gears and shifts the subject that radically it's usually because they know they've lost the argument. I know that's the case for John Corman at least.

    Sorry you're so upset you get paid happy - what is it double time? - to work on Labour Day weekend.

    Politicans jobs (unless you're Gordon Campbell) seem to lack a lot of security too.

    Cheers to you and yours none-the-less.

  • happy

    24 weeks ago

    Well thats how it started out West

    I began by "reminding" Tieleman that he's had a few strikeouts to go along with all his homeruns.
    Then YOU brought up Reitsma. I point out Gordo kicked him out when his shenanigans were exposed. Then YOU drag Basi/Virk into the conversation (so what did that have to do with Tielemans batting av?)
    So since you took us off the tracks I merely "reminded" you that the NDP has plenty to answer for as well in the dirty tricks department via the examples provided. It was all in context.

    Where do you get that I'm upset working? I work weekends all the time, including night shift like right now. No OT for that. I get Labour Day off but if I was working it would be time and a half as per the Canada Labour Code. Just like when I worked this past Christmas. I was waiting in line at Tims for a coffee and the RCMP in front of me was telling his buddy how he was making triple time and a half....much the same as nurses and ferry workers I imagine.

  • G West

    24 weeks ago

    Because you're always complaining about it

    And expressing how bitter you are about professional public servants who NEVER get paid a dime for overtime - EVER. And they work more of it than you can imagine.

    You started this by referring to Tieleman's failures - I simply pointed out that he's doing a lot better than than you seem to want to give him credit for.

    You're the one who brought up 'failed' recall campaigns - if that wasn't sufficent reason to bring up Kevvy and Total Recall I can't imagine what would be.

    BTW, I think Sihota (who I don't have much time for) was suspended and not disbarred.

    As for the bona fides of Law Societies as judges of character I'll grant they're not much use in that area - noted recently the decision of the Law Society of Upper Canada to give a license to self-confessed briber and solicitor of political favours Erik Bornmann. Would it be unfair for me to mention his political affiliations.

  • happy

    24 weeks ago

    Not true

    I love my job.
    Those dedicated "professional public servants" you speak of who don't collect OT are obviously non union.
    And even non union workers like myself and they still qaulify for OT if:
    a)you are working a statuatory holiday, or
    b)you work in excess of 2080 hours in a 12 month period.
    OT shall be paid at One and a Half times regular pay for the hours worked.
    Source - Canada Labour Code.
    The only excemptions are executive management, eg. Director level and higher. And if you know anyone who falls into that category then you would also know they aren't normal and don't care about trivial things like OT. They are obsessed workaholics who think the BlackBerry is mankinds greatest invention since the wheel.

    You got the Tieleman thing a bit backwards. I pointed out he wasn't doing quite as well as he was giving HIMSELF credit for.

    Falcon and Total Recall was fair game, I never said otherwise. Basi and Virk certainly wasn't.

    Thats a pretty fine line between disbarrment and suspension.
    Not unfair to bring up Bornmann at all.
    And perhaps one day we might talk about Gableman. When the time is right.

  • Hughes

    24 weeks ago

    Pound of Flesh

    "The pound of flesh, which I demand of him,
    Is dearly bought; 'tis mine and I will have it."
    The Merchant of Venice

    "But is the B.C. government and big business listening?" BT

    You bet their listening! They're a clever, bitter, and dare I say vindictive bunch, so they'll be listening and watching and scheming to extract their pound o' flesh.

  • G West

    24 weeks ago

    @happy

    It doesn't seem so - all you do is complain about it.

    And you're totally wrong if you think many civil servants don't work much longer hours (and weekends) than you do. There is a whole category of civil servant called 'exclusions' and they sure as hell aren't executives nor are they politcal O.I.C appointees either.

    Basi and Virk weren't fair ball?

    You missed this I guess:

    http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/westcoastnews/story.html?id=08081a46-8904-45cd-a825-1cf13cfc19e5

    The fact is, my friend, the Liberals NEVER have played fair ball.

  • John Corman

    24 weeks ago

    Are all you guys tongue tied?

    This is a first? I've posted something that you lefties won't or can't respond to. I have to assume that it shocks the Hell out you and that there is no defense.

  • Tieleman

    24 weeks ago

    Bill Tieleman sets record straight, whacks John Corman

    First - I have never run or been a strategist in a recall campaign. Fight HST supported recall efforts against Liberal MLAs but they were directed by local activists, not myself or others.

    I have been involved in losing campaigns - the COPE 1996 municipal wipeout comes to mind - but not lately.

    Second - John Corman - you're ludicrous analysis of HST voting is that rich people were so magnanimous as to vote to help the "poor" but the poor were to ignorant to help themselves? Get a grip. In both cases voters supported their own best interests - in wealthy ridings they like right-wing governments that give big tax breaks to rich folks and big businesses - the HST being the biggest of all.

    Lastly - thanks again to Tyee posters for their kind words about my role at Fight HST and that of Bill Vander Zalm, Chris Delaney and many others. It truly was a phenomenal campaign based on people from a wide range of political perspectives all working together against an unfair tax. Cheers!

  • G West

    24 weeks ago

    Thanks Bill

    If you hear from John Corman again let him know that I can't be bothered refuting complete and utter bullshit - if he had a real argument in favour of the HST (for working people and the middle class) he'd have posted it.

    He hasn't - and he doesn't.

    It was, and is, simply another freebee from the BCLiberal Government to the people who pay the piper in this province.

  • happy

    24 weeks ago

    OK then Tieleman

    I'll take you at your word you never participated directly in the Recalls. I suppose I got that impression from the number of times you stated how you co-founded Fight HST with your good friend Vander Zalm. And Fight HST did a bit more than just morally support local activists in the campaigns like you claim, as this link cleary shows

    http://fighthst.com/press-release-fight-hst-recall-campaign-breaks-3000-canvasser-mark/

    Yes West, I know all about "excluded" employees. I know ones who used to be part of the BCF union before Vince Ready excluded them. They get OT under the exact same conditions I listed above. Stats and excess hours worked.

  • zalm

    24 weeks ago

    Corman's boredom

    That's a pretty short list you left, John. Let me add vacation home and time share salespersons, and used car dealers to it too. Oh, also securities salespersons. And the religious ministry.

    Anyone else we've all forgotten? I'm sure there are a bunch.

    Really, who cares? We don't have an equitable or sensible tax system as it is, but we just stopped it from getting a whole lot more inequitable. It's not much to celebrate, but it's what we've got. Let's start work on the bigger job on Tuesday - reforming the whole tax system.

    Meanwhile, don't you have anything better to do? Why don't we leave off the self-aggrandizement for a couple of days and enjoy the weekend - it's sunny, the beer's cool and I'm finally harvesting the first tomatos!

  • happy

    24 weeks ago

    Maybe I shouldn't take you at your word Tieleman

    Rafe says otherwise. And Rafe would never lie

    "As Bill Vander Zalm, Chris Delaney and Bill Tieleman push their Recall Agenda I hope they’re getting advice as they go."

    http://rafeonline.com/2010/09/hst-and-recall/

  • Tieleman

    24 weeks ago

    "Happy" to disagree

    I didn't say Fight HST didn't support the recall campaigns - or that I didn't - I said I wasn't involved in any of them at the local level - I wasn't able to even visit any campaign let alone run them. Rafe Mair's support was very welcome and whether or not you agree with recall - they kept the HST front and centre till Gordon Campbell promised a binding, simple majority referendum.

  • Cool Hand

    24 weeks ago

    Musings

    Tieleman: "I have never run or been a strategist in a recall campaign."

    But ya can't deny that ya weren't involved in the Prince George North recall campaign. According to the Elections BC investigation:
    _______________________________________
    "At the time of recall, Mr. Bill Tieleman was the communications director and assistant to the president of the BCFL. Mr. Tieleman informed us that in early January 1998, he was advised by Mr. John Pollard of the Office of the Premier that several volunteers, mostly from the government’s political staff, were willing to assist with the anti-recall campaigns.

    Mr. Tieleman suggested that the BCFL might be willing to incur the cost, estimated at between $2,500 and $4,000, of flying the volunteers to the constituencies."
    __________________________________________

    With taxpayer-funded government political staff to boot!

    http://www.elections.bc.ca/docs/rpt/ParksReport.pdf

    G West: "... if he had a real argument in favour of the HST (for working people and the middle class) he'd have posted it."

    Geee... the Ontario NDP fully supports their new 13% HST, which is at a higher rate than BC's.

    Heck, the Nova Scotia NDP increased their HST rate by 2% to 15%, the highest rate in the country. Poor NS working folk!

    Even Jack Layton said that "was acceptable"

    Haha. Funny how NDP supporters conveniently ignore that hypocrisy.

    Zalm: "We don't have an equitable or sensible tax system as it is.. Let's start work on the bigger job on Tuesday - reforming the whole tax system."

    Haha... during the late 1990's BC was one of the highest taxed regimes in North America! Major net inter-provincial migration to other provinces ad nauseum.

    OTOH, Manitoba's NDP government has brought down the small business tax to 0%, eliminated the corporate capital tax, reduced corporate taxes to almost BC's level and they look like they will win a fourth term in government.

    Meanwhile, leftist Adrian Dix was G. Clark's chief architect on higher taxation, created a fake memo to cover Clark's ass, the RCMP raided his office computer as a result, and Dix also cheated (the cash and late memberships) to win the NDP leadership.

    It's all here from Prime Time Crime:

    http://primetimecrime.com/columns/Columns%201999/19990825.htm

    And the NDP party prez, Moe Sihota, is as disgraced as one can get.

    And now we see Geoff Meggs looking to run for the BC NDP. The same spin-doctor Geoff Meggs who attended with G. Clark at the RCMP raid on Glen Clark's house.

    You want these unethical characters to run BC? Haha, after communication strategists bring out this stuff in the next go around, swing voters will not go with BC's version of the loony-left NDP. You can bank on that!! ;)

  • happy

    24 weeks ago

    Spin 101

    "whether or not you agree with recall - they kept the HST front and centre till Gordon Campbell promised a binding, simple majority referendum."

    No, the HST Petiton, not Recall threats forced Gordo to promise a Referendum.
    The Referendum was announced in September 2010. The Chong Recall began the following December 2010.
    I bet you would also toe the official NDP line that the NDP was not actively working behind the scenes on Recall, that it was only individuals on their own time.
    Thanks to big mouth Moe we know differently

    "Below the surface, though, it is a partisan effort," he said. "Our members can be as aggressive in campaigns, but can't say it is an NDP effort."

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2010/10/15/bc-ndp-sihota-james-recall.html

  • G West

    24 weeks ago

    happy

    Sorry bud - these guys and gals aren't excluded because of Vince Ready or anyone else - they've been exclusions forever - because of the work they do and the decisions they're called upon to make. These are the people who run this province - not the politicians....

    When the BCGEU goes on strike these are the people who keep the business of government running and they work longer hours and do more unpaid overtime than you do.

    Lukie - again you drop in with nothing to contribute except complete ignorance and utter nonsense.
    How many times have you posted the same utterly wrong information about migration during the 90s.

    Frank has posted the statistics that prove you're bullshitting so many times I would have thought even you might have got the message.

    Bring on high taxes - reducing what upper earners pay is killing the social structure, the education system and health care in this province.

    Only brain dead people think otherwise.

    The people running BC today and for the past 10 years are the most unethical and morally challenged in this provinces history - any sane person wants them gone.

    As for Ontario - the people there DO NOT FULLY SUPPORT THE HST and if they had the means (as we do here) to cashier it, they would.

    Anyone who claims otherwise is an idiot.

  • happy

    24 weeks ago

    West

    I was - as I carefully stated - referring to the BCF union workers who were excluded by the Ready arbitration. Read all about it. Page 53. Exclusions from the Bargaining Unit.

    http://www.bcferries.com/files/PDFs/Ready_Decision_Complete.pdf

    I fully realize who the excludeds are you are referring to. In any other setting but government they would be called what they are - Management, or Administrative Staff, wherever they fall.
    A strike situation is completely different from what we were discussing here and is a Red Herring. Normal hours do not apply during a strike and 18 hour shifts can be the norm. Been there.

    "these are the people who keep the business of government running and they work longer hours and do more unpaid overtime than you do."

    I don't believe for one second they put in more hours anually than I do and if they work unpaid OT they are fools. I would refuse. They have the Law on their side in black and white in the Canada Labour Code.

  • G West

    24 weeks ago

    @happy

    I wasn't talking about a strike either - the people I'm talking about aren't just working overtime and on holidays beacuse there's a strike on. It was simply another way to try and illustrate what I'm talking about.

    They aren't fools - they're dedicated public servants who love their jobs as much as you do happy and they don't just do it for the money.

    The law has nothing to do with it.

    I'm glad you're not in their position because the system would fall apart if people in their shoes had that attitude.

    Every hour they work overtime is unpaid - so there is no way you win this argument.

    Anyway, I've finished the project I was working on and I'm going to bed.

    There are a lot of things people who think they know everything are ignorant about - really ignorant.

    Cheers.
    Cheers.

  • happy

    24 weeks ago

    Ain't that the truth

    "There are a lot of things people who think they know everything are ignorant about - really ignorant."

    Nighty night West. Sleep tight. Don't let the bed bugs bite.

  • John Corman

    24 weeks ago

    Bill Tieleman

    Your response reminds me of scene in All The President’s Men where Ben Bradley of the Washinton Post comments on Nixon’s White House response to their latest Watergate revelation. It went something like this “they’ve called us idiots and liars but have not denied the facts of our story - a non-denial denial”

    I can understand how you are very disturbed at finding out who are some of the biggest benefactors of your successful “non-campaign” to rid us of the HST. But, you cannot avoid the obvious and that is that many of your businesses on your hate list such as banks, insurance companies, the medical profession etc. etc. are going to be better off.

    By the way, I don’t think people vote to “help the poor”. Those hundreds of thousands that voted to retain the HST even though they would benefit from its removable were thinking of the welfare of the province.
    Simple as that whether you like to believe it or not.

  • G West

    24 weeks ago

    Still not a shred of empirical evidence

    To refute the fact that the HST represented a 1.9 billion dollar per annum shift from business to consumers - in return for a one time bribe of $1.6 billion.

    That is, simply the elephant in the room Corman, and you know it.

    No matter what lies you and Ron Cantelon keep spinning.

    I know you're not losing any sleep over the real facts of this situation or the reality that it will be 18 months, in all likelihood (generating an excess of approximately $800 million extra per year according to the government’s own figures) before this mess is fixed - so why would I pay any attention to idle and redundant, and abysmally ill-informed chatter from Nanaimo.

    I know for sure YOU don't vote to help the poor!

  • John Corman

    24 weeks ago

    GWest

    I don't think you understand why some companies in BC such as banks and insurance companies and will be better of financially when the HST is cancelled. If you want me to go into further detail let me know. That offer is open to Bill Tielman also.

    You say the shift of the tax burden is in favour of the corporations in the amount of $1.9 B. I haven't the slightest idea if that is an accurate number but, I'm always a little suspect when lefties start playing with financial numbers as they relate to corporations.
    Just so that I understand your point, let's use an example.
    Suppose you decide to have a new roof put on your home and ask for quotes. Pre HST the roofing company would use an estimate of, say, $2,000 for labour, $5,350 ($5k plus PST)for materials and then add 20% for overhead and profit to arrive at a quote of $8,820 plus GST.
    Post HST the company would calculate as follows; ($2k + $5k)x 1.2 = $8,400 plus HST.
    Quick now Gwest, who paid the PST in the first scenario?

    One problem with using your real name in these kinds of groups is that you have to stand behind anything you say. In other words, you can't make idiotic, abusive comments. You've avoided having to deal with that problem, haven't up GWest?

  • Hughes

    24 weeks ago

    Gregor???

    Geez Bill, you sure you wanna tell everyone about your support for Gregor Robertson? What do you think of his sorry "leadership" thus far?

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