California Dreaming

Won't be fooled again.

Prop13 moves up the coast.

RESIGN

This is a money bill. It's a confidence matter if ever there was one.

What the public have said when they voted on this thing is that the last election was run and won on the basis of what amounted to a contract to avoid this. So then when they arrogantly went ahead with what they made clear had been their intention all along, they lied.

Receiving or taking a benefit on false pretenses is fraud. Lying to persuade someone to confer a thing of value on you is fraud.

When a money bill fails in a parliamentary body that is a vote of no confidence, and must trigger an election.

Everyone involved in this fiasco, every single member who ever said they would not do this transfer of all taxes onto the middle and low income households must, if they have even a shred of dignity, ethics or honour, resign forthwith.

We should all call upon the Speaker to recall the Legislature into session to allow the government to dissolve and call an election immediately. We should call upon our members to do the same thing.

There is no other honest or honourable way forward from here.

Higher Education/ Higher Income Support HST

According to a Vancouver Sun analysis based upon 2006 census figures (and today's result), the higher level of education one has, the more likely one supported the HST.

Concurrently, the higher level of income one has the more likely one also supported the HST - they also would be paying the most HST into government coffers. Go figure.

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Interactive+graphic+vote+numbers/5313879/story.html

Well, like I stated, the precedent has been set. Welcome to BC's tea party movement led by the right-wing likes of Bill Vander Zalm and Chris Delaney. No future guvmint will dare raise taxes from hereon in.

BTW, Delta South, where Vander Zalm resides, voted to keep the HST. Too funny.

A Legacy of BC Liberal Corruption

http://powellriverpersuader.blogspot.com/2011/07/premier-gordon-butterfly-campbells.html

The REAL BC FERRY Scandal explained in detail.

Funny stuff the media..The 10% HST(OFFENSIVE CHARACTERIZATION REMOVED.) created a $1.4 billion dollar permanent budget hole for Government each and every year, meaning, a 10% HST would bring in $1.4 billion dollars less to Government than the old PST would have..

What did Keith Baldrey call Christy Clark`s 10% HST fix for 2014????

It was, and I quote..."Not doable"

You have zero cred Z/cool...

And even funnier, it appears that many are interested in the Transcript from the Christy Clark show, the show on BC Ferries where Christy Clark had to retract lies on BC Ferries.

Perhaps you need a reminder....

Of what Keith Baldrey said about a 10% HST in 2014..."Not Doable"

http://powellriverpersuader.blogspot.com/2011/06/keith-baldrey-slams-christy-clarks-hst.html

You PAB are losing it badly, too many clean facts online, nobody reads the Canwest garbage, nobody trusts Global news, and more importantly...

BC Liberal voters said no the the HST.

Cheers

Nailey Nails It...

"We should all call upon the Speaker to recall the Legislature into session to allow the government to dissolve and call an election immediately. We should call upon our members to do the same thing.

There is no other honest or honourable way forward from here." Bailey.

Which is the next logical stage of this business. Right on, Bailey!

The Socreds need to resign NOW! They have lost a critical confidence vote of the people of BC. It is the only principled way out of this power corruption morras of the last 30 years.

We need a "Canadian Spring", starting here in BC... NOW!!

(There really is a new public mood emerging.)

Finance Minister Kevin Falcon

"Finance Minister Kevin Falcon said the BC Liberal government accepts full responsibility"

No they don't, if they did they would pay back every cent of taxpayers money they attempted to bribe taxpayers with from their party's coffers.

@ CoolHand - absolutely no evidence that higher educated people support the HST other than using polls/census data and comparing them to riding voting results. Unfortunately if fails to calculate who voted and who did not plus thousands of other variables including which demographic voted for what. Did the high school educated person vote yes or no, did the PhD educated person vote yes or no. No way to determine this...

Are the BC Liberals Dead?

If BC residents are stuck on inferiority then the Liberals will have them dead to right. However if the people strive for something better then the NDP will be the party that brings the province back to life.

Administer the Transition

Now that the HST has been punched flat, it should be an administrative matter, not a political one, to transition back to the old PST, which we've had for several decades and hasn't been gone all that long that we need to take a refresher course. The eighteen months the government says it will take is, of course, a political manoeuvre to avoid an election for as long as possible and certainly is not in any way taking responsibility for the way the HST Referendum turned out.

If the government really was willing to take full responsibility for the HST issue (which they falsely claim to be doing,) they would call an election right now.

Hold Government accountable for bad decisions

I agree that 19 months is an unacceptable length of time to extinguish the HST. I find it interesting that Kevin Falcon says the BC Liberal Government takes full responsibility for its actions, but it is the BC tax payers who will foot the bill for all of the BC Liberal's bad decisions. It would be good if Government had to actually be accountable for their actions,then maybe they would think more carefully before making very bad and undemocratic decisions.

@The Dude

Well, the Vancouver's Sun's analysis expressly confirmed that. If ya believe that the Vancouver Sun is part of a right-wing conspiracy, then let's look at some other corroborative evidence.

That is, two provincial ridings:

1. Vancouver-Point Grey (where UBC is situate and demographically highly educated)

During the recent bye-election, the Liberals achieved 49% of the vote to 45% for the NDP. Yet VPG supported the HST by a 58% to 42% margin. Ergo, that would mean all Liberal voters (not likely) and many NDP voters supported the HST.

2. Oak Bay-Gordon Head (Where UVic is situate, demographically highly educated, and also was first anti-HST recall campaign)

During the last election, the Liberals acheived 46.5% of the vote while the NDP achieved 44.5%.

Yet, the voters in OBGH voted 51% in favour of the HST. Again, that would mean all Liberal voters (not likely) voted in favour of the HST and many NDP voters supported the HST as well.

Just common sense.

BTW, elections are won by political parties who can win "centrist" voters - not fringe political diehards.

The federal NDP supported the HST in NDP Nova Scotia because it's "acceptable" - a much, much higher 15% HST rate compared to BC's lower 12% rate. And the NS NDP guvmint increased the HST rate by 2%!

And yes, the NS NDP guvmint could also renegotiate with the feds to remove the HST if they wanted to and go back to the PST. But they won't. Go figure.

And the ON NDP also now supports Ontario's 13% HST rate. Higher than BC's and also placed upon gasoline. Poor working folk in Ontario! The ON NDP now doesn't want to remove the HST in ON either. Go figure.

The NDP supporting a tax shift to corporations from working folk in the provinces of ON and NS. Imagine that!

In BC, the anti-HST folk in BC were led by right-wing Bill Vander Zalm and Chris Delaney. Traditional Reform party types of the 1990's and THEIR issues. Anti-tax measures are not NDP issues and neither is the economy. Never have - never will be.

And now some NDP posters here want an election??!! Anti-tax crusaders are from the populist, right-wing, reformist mold. If ya haven't clued into that political gambit... well...

BC was the highest taxed regime in North America (outside of Quebec) during the 1990's BC NDP government. That obviously will not fly any more in BC with this anti-tax precedent.

BC is also a centre-right province. And unlike moderate Mike Harcourt and populist Glen Clark, Dix has huge political baggage... orchestrated Clark's high tax regime, fraudulent memo, RCMP seizing his computer as a result, G. Clark firing him, dour, not likeable, too left-wing, etc. etc.

Believe me, folk in the middle of the political spectrum won't vote for him with that baggage (the NDP loves exposing this type of stuff as well).

Just a reality check and common sense.

18 months?

18 months to reinstate the GST/PST system? That is revenge and holding the public in despise and for stupid. This can be done in a few weeks and it must be done by January 1, 2012 the latest!
It is sickening to continuously be insulted by this BC Government.

Just say No! We will not pay it.

Well said, Bailey.

Why also should the victims of this deceit be expected to reimburse the 1.6 billion dollars? We had absolutely zilch, nada, nothing to do with the implementation of this deal.

This was a private deal. The people of BC knew nothing about it. So let the guys and gals that signed off on this pay the piper.

In The Privateer World that the BC Libs so love, if someone comes onto your property and builds something you didn't ask for or approve.... all without your knowledge, well, any respectable court in the land would hold that person totally responsible for what amounts to fraud and trespass..... and the subsequent dismantlement costs and expenses incurred would be for the perpetrator alone to pay. No just court would make the victim pay? So why should the public?

Let the BC Liberal Govt/Party alone make amends for this. The High Commissioner who signed off on this has a number of residences in BC.... and real estate. Let him sell them and put them towards reducing the 1.6 billion.

The members of the BC Liberal cabinet have houses and property that could be sold to reduce the 1.6 billion dollars even further. Their houses, stocks, education funds, donations to The BC Liberal party......
Seize them all....until the 1.6 billion dollars is repaid.

After all, deceit and fraud come with a price...so since we and our children are the victims of this scam.... why should we be responsible for paying even one nickel of the repayment?
Btw, wonder what 'they' will owe in repayment costs for all those smart meters that we, the people, never asked for either?

Oh... and doesn't the High Commissioner have a cushy summer place on the Sunshine Coast, too? Wonder how much we could get for that at public auction?

$1.6 billion

and counting.

HST clingers fall off

so all the government hacks that thought they'd get contracts consulting on HST will have to look for real work now. Boohoo.

Lynn, I 100% agree...

...why should the people of BC pay for the deception and underhanded tactics of a political party that was bent on meeting it's own ends?

The political party responsible for such ineptitude should be responsible - in an ideal world, there should be no question of that fact.

Unfortunately, this is not an ideal world. We live in a world that is corrupt and largely geared towards self-centered interests, particularly those with large pocketbooks and sociopathic charm.

The reality is that we, the regular people of BC WILL be paying for the Liberal parties "gaffes" whether we like it or not. So will our children. So will theirs.

This is a small victory. We won the battle. But I think it goes without saying it's unlikely we've won the war.

Very Proud

I am very proud of BC voters today. They have done the right thing.

I am also very proud of Adrian Dix vehemently opposing the HST.

Furthermore, I am also very proud of the federal NDP. Both BC New Democrat MP's Don Davies and Libby Davies are fighting for BC's interests in equivocally stating that BC should rightfully keep the HST bribe of $1.6 billion, as it has already been spent on health care, and that the HarperCons should rightfully stuff it.

A very happy day in BC indeed.

The remaining $2.4 billion

The remaining $2.4 billion portion of the deficit is due to reduced revenues to be drawn from the PST system instead of the HST system.
===========

Oh but wasn't this HST suppose to be revenue neutral?

Ridiculous

The HST was implemented dishonestly and unfairly. That said, paying $3 billion to revert back to the PST now is lunacy.

Watching Dix march arm in arm with the 'Zalm is an inspiring sight. Doesn't exactly make me want to run right out and vote for him.

And as for "axe the tax" Tieleman? Maybe he should be working for the Conservatives.

Er Libby,

Did you run that suggestion of not repaying Ottawa by your Québec caucus? You are now in a primarily Québec based party, where the majority of your MPs come from. Québec being almost a quarter of the population means that around $400 million of that money comes from Québec taxpayers. They will demand a say.

In fact, it might be more than $1.6 billion because the federal government will have added expenses in changing their law and their staff.

How is Falcon responsible?

"We made that decision and we are responsible for that decision and I don' think we've ever been able to overcome that."

Just exactly how is Falcon and the smart guys being responsible for this. I don't see any resignations and I don't see them opening their wallets either. This government is corrupt and is never responsible for anything they do.
I can't see how anybody could possibly fix the mess this province is in within a decade. I say stay with the legislated election date and let BC suffer what the voters have elected. Maybe after that people will get their head out of their ass and pay attention for a change because it is certainly going to get worse before it gets better no matter who is in government. Better the Liberals I say and they can be expunged for good.

Best news I've heard in a long time

The people have spoken. Christy now has a 'gift' from Gordon Campbell: coming up with the 1.6 Billion he took from Flaherty and spent before he really had it. Just don't carve any more out of the education budget!

As for Finance Minister Kevin Falcon's apology, he was a loyal member of Gordon Campbell's cabinet, so his words come across as hollow and insincere.

Lets put it to a referendum

Only this time lets collect signatures for the Federal Government. And let the Harper Government know payback is a bitch. It wasn't like the people wanted the tax in the first place yet Harper had no problem with going along with Campbell's lies as along as it got him the HST.

Hardly a feather in your cap, Ms Clark

undoing the undemocratic procedure by, and the flagrantly dishonest breach of trust of, your party.

A truly honest political leader never would have put it to a vote, costing the tax payers even more time and money. She's have righted the wrong out of the gate.

But, hey, there isn't a single party in this undemocratic fraud that is worthy of an endorsing vote. So, Ms Clark, you and your party remain in poor company.

Christy Clark

"Still, Clark found reasons for optimism in the province's rejection of the tax, saying that her government's "listening process" of engaging with voters across B.C. on the HST translated into a "huge voter turn-out."

Wrong. Again.

Christy Clark's "listening process" was nothing more than an aluminum siding sales job. Bafflegab about "paying $1.6 billion back to the Feds, meanwhile ignoring the fact that the Feds (who are also in a deficit) borrowed that $1.6 billion from us in the first place!

When was there ever an attempt to engage the public on those who were left out of the HST credits? Homeless, long-term unemployed, mentally-ill, unemployable - all these stand a good chance of never seeing a dime of HST rebate, despite paying for it with every penny they receive.

When was there ever an attempt to engage the public on how it benefits us that Encana saves HST on all the equipment it buys to export our natural gas to the rest of the continent? When did Christy Clark ever tell us how good it is that Encana's profits go up (headquartered in Calgary, by the way, thank you very much!) while consumers' pool of spending money goes down due to an increased tax take?

When has there ever been a conversation about the best way to tax society's output to ensure that we get the biggest bang for the opportunity lost, that we tax things that it makes sense to tax, like waste and pollution, and don't tax things that it doesn't, like personal income?

(Here's when I'd ordinarily let Fiat Lux chime in here with a screed on how waste and pollution add to the GDP, but this is my rant.)

No, Christy Clark has never wanted a conversation about this tax. She has only tried her darndest to be seen selling this travesty of Gordo's legacy, so that it can be seen she's earned her stripes as a loyal minion of the Socreds... er.... Fiberals.

Ir she had any decency, she would truly lead a real conversation about how we're going to tax the output of our society to effectively pay for all the things we want, and eliminate the waste on all the things we don't need.

But I'm not holding my breath.

The HST & politica democracy.

I join the others in congratulations to those who voted for participatory democracy, not just representative democracy.

"Falcon said a reduction in revenue means reduced spending and finding alternative ways of generating government income."

Which means the Gov.t. fully intends to punish the electorate, who got uppity & blocked their new tax...we're in for benefit reductions and higher taxes as the economy slows.

Campbell's Legacy.

"Gordo was a disgrace to this province for raising taxes and user fees as high as he did, and saddling us and future taxpayers (our children!) with $60 billion in long-term debt so that we could hold our shiny new Olympics in a poverty-free bubble for a few weeks."

There's no doubt that the billions spent to promote the concept of Vancouver as a "world-class city" dis-regarded our isolated geographic position, our lack of support of any manufacturing and taxes.

Organized attempts were made to *clean out * the DTES...

BC Incomes Stagnant.

"B.C. ranks fourth in economic output for capita, the same spot it was in the board’s first report in 2002." (The data was generally two years old.)"

"Employment has improved — up from fifth to fourth in the percentage of adults with jobs."

"But in personal income, B.C. has fallen from third to fourth. In productivity — a key measure — it has fallen from fifth to seventh among provinces. Exports per capita have fallen from seventh to ninth."

http://tinyurl.com/3qmypd9

Christy says

"If the HST had been introduced in a different way, it may have ultimately met with a different reception from British Columbians. People were really upset with the way it was brought in."

I say: if the HST hadn't been a tax that totally benefited business at the expense of the people, and hadn't been rammed through by an arrogant government then it may have passed.

After giving away our railway, semi privatizing BC Ferries allowing a few to reap millions while jacking up the fairs so I can't afford to use the system, making what I call an assinine contract for Hydro to the IPP's so very shortly we can't afford hydro, and forcing the medical proffession to jack up user fees, youve made a mess of our finances. And You still think it is our fault we are in this mess. Give your heads a shake.

Everyone who knew

The billion and a half is being played as a threat now. It was a bribe before.

It's a big piece in the carrot and stick routine the Harper Government (formerly known as The Government of Canada) used to collude with the Campbells to foist this fraudulent tax on people who had made it quite clear that they would not elect them again if it was going to be done.

Please cast your minds back to the Legislature raids that preceded the BC Rail fraud. There was a connected story reported. $80,000 of funds laundered through a fake membership drive, where dogs cats and dead folks were signed up to the Liberal party. It was never made clear where that money had come from, but it was reportedly sent by BC Liberal functionaries to the Federal Liberal party.

The Feds were a big part of his scam, and they still are. I cannot imagine a scenario in which Federal employees are not shaking in their boots and holding midnight meetings over this, in fear it will shift attention onto their own actions.

If the Federal Government bribed the provincial government, or coerced them or both, to influence them to act against their own people, then they are equally guilty.

This whole mess just stinks to high heaven, and needs to be investigated right down to the ground. Everybody who participated, from whatever party, companies that paid lobbyists and made 'contributions' to political parties to promote it, everybody of every stripe who were part of this deal; should be named. And all the relationships exposed to the light so people can finally see who it is who has taken over their government.

Bailey

You're a little behind the times, it's just turned into a promise.

And who's gonna pay for this inquiry, the taxpayer of course? Quit trying to waste more of my money.

You are right, though. This whole mess does stink.

Luke

"BTW, elections are won by political parties who can win "centrist" voters - not fringe political diehards. "

Wrong. Elections are won by the political party that gets the most votes. And most voters are not in the centre as any elementary school kid could tell you after looking at the history of BC elections.

Most people in BC are either NDP or Socreds which is why we have only two major parties.

If the space between the parties was as big as you claim then a new party that puts itself between those two major parties would win election. How did Gordon Wilson's PDA do? That's the example you should look at.

Same thing federally, in a first-past-the-post system you appeal to your base, get them out to vote. That's how Harper won, he didn't appeal to the centre.

Liberals are DEAD

A YES vote to scrap the HST = 54% of the voters do not approve the Liberals. Clear and simple.

Election NOW! BC Liberals must step down NOW!

All who supported the HST tax in government must pay back the tax payers. Their decisions cost us millions of dollars! This is an incompetent government and must resign.

I hear sayings like "we need to hire back the 300 tax collectors in order to bring back the PST'. Why? Were they fired when the HST was brought in? So the HST didn't create jobs, it got rid of jobs. I guess, we the tax payers, created 300 jobs then by bringing back the system that wasn't broken anyway.

It took virtually no time to bring in the HST and now it will take 2 years to get it out? WTF? Who is lying again?

Geographical voting - aha - why is anyone surprised? Middle and lower class got nailed with the HST while the upper class is getting a free ride. Not on my back! Enough is enough.

Businesses whining that it will cost them more now. Aha. They didn't whine when the HST came in and they raised their prices - it was a good opportunity to scam the customer. I yet to see any savings from business passed on to me. What a bunch of BS.

You have to look only as far as Europe and see how the VAT has affected their communities and society. Europe is in deep shit over the fact that taxation is heavy on middle and lower class while the upper class is getting a free ride. Anyone with a tiny brain brain will get rid off the HST. Period.

Fair taxation - I'm sick and tired of being looked at as a cash cow.

a taste of democracy

Enjoy that brief taste of democracy. You can rest assured the plutocracy will never allow that to happen again!

Income, not education

The split between pro- and anti-HST forces had nothing to do with higher education. Rich ridings voted for the HST, poor ridings against. Check out the 'Policy Note' website of the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives. This wasn't a tax revolt, it was a class revolt.

I'm not so sure - boondoggle

... the majority of the population in Canada are middle and low income people. When they had enough they will speak out.

I don't see how a tiny % of the population can control the majority when that majority will see they are being taken for a ride and used as cash cows.

It is not a matter of if - it is a matter of WHEN the majority will finally stand up and say enough! we are taking back control.

It happened over the history of times when people have risen up against the ruling class - and it will happen again. I'm sure of that.

How ironic that socialists

How ironic that socialists are gloating over a tax revolt. Careful what you wish for.

54% was affected

bruther - "This wasn't a tax revolt, it was a class revolt."

I totally agree.

This also means 54% of the population was affected negatively by this tax.

And this number would have been higher if everyone got his ballot on time. Some of my friends were not able to vote because their ballot did not arrive due to the postal strike.

Worth Repeating

Québec has had provincial tax ITCs for businesses for over 25 years. Now Ontario has too. BC just voted to drop them.

Yet many BCers seem to think that Québec is more progressive, even though businesses there receive credit for the PST (provincial HST component) and have for a quarter of a century!

Does anyone ever wonder why those provinces have so many manufacturing industries?

How can posters here seriously allow their ideology and hatred of a past premier, who now lives in Europe, to damage the chances of workers to keep their jobs with flippant comments like, "so what", when referring to the prospect of the film, tv, animation and video-game industry considering the reality that it's cheaper to do business anywhere else and them knowing that there is very real prospect that companies will locate elsewhere?

Hew that wood and ship out those big logs because nobody is going to set up any wood finishing plant in BC when they can ship the logs elsewhere by truck and save all those business expenses that a complicated PST system has.

The provincial tax department regularly held tax seminars for industry groups because of the complications of the PST system regarding labour, goods and the digital age. So we are going back to that? Back to the mid 20th century?

BC is relegating itself to a resort and retirement province, that also cuts trees, fishes a bit and digs out the earth.

Internet shopping will increase.

No matter, no HST on haircuts so they will be a buck cheaper and you can save a whole quarter-dollar when you pick up a burger and fries. Too bad about those HST low-income credits.

Nostalgia wins! Precise and accurate foot shooting season rules.

bruther

That argument doesn't really stand up to scrutiny. Some examples:

1. The 3 Richmond ridings, a centre-right Liberal/federal Conservative area, all voted the HST down;

2. Vancouver Langara, a centre-right Liberal area, also voted the HST down;

These are all higher income areas that also include a large Chinese-Canadian population. And Chinese-Canadians are notoriously anti-tax.

Kootenay East, Boundary-Similkameen, the 3 Prince George ridings, and the 2 Peace River ridings all voted the HST down and these are moderate income, centre-right, conservative areas.

OTOH, the 3 Abbotsford ridings and the 2 Chilliwack ridings all voted to keep the HST. And these certainly are not higher income or "rich" ridings.

Next step!

Now that we have killed this tax grab we should consider two other things. 1. abolishing all forms of regressive taxation - tax luxury items and focus tax policies on income and corporate profits. 2. Extend direct democracy - make such referendums easier to do and make all controversial government policies subject to referenda with strict limits on spending so the corporate side cannot attempt to buy the vote as it did (and thankfully failed to do this time.)

One other thing folks!

Look at it in an international perspective. The HST referendum victory is part of a general revolt against the greed creeps. Think of Iceland and its refusal to bend to the bank fraudsters, Italy and its rejection of privatization and the extension of nuke power, both done by referendum. All power to the people!

unrealistic man

“Does anyone ever wonder why those provinces have so many manufacturing industries?”

I know! I know!

Ask me, ask me, please, please……

It probably has a lot to do with the fact that Ontario & Quebec tend to be the power base for all the political parties ---- NDP come on down….

How many times have the Federal elections been decided before the Westerners even had a chance to vote?

And since the HST is such a great thing in Quebec for so long me wonders why they have been receiving tons-o-dough from the Feds in equalization payments ($7.815 billion 2011-2012)?

"Yet many BCers seem to think that Québec is more progressive....."

Like their French only language law?

That's progressive?

How 'bout regressive?

A Picture Tells 4 Million Stories

"I think it's reasonable to acknowledge that this would've been a come-from-behind victory if the HST had won," Clark said.

Sort of like the 'stick-it-in-your-behind' way they screwed us with the HST in the first place. And just to right of that quote is a picture of your average BC taxpayer after the HST. Thanks Tyee!

Kevin Falcon:
"This is a bump in the road, a significant bump in the road indeed..."
Your average BC taxpayer.
'Tire tracks all across my back. I can see you had your fun. But Kevin can't you see my signals turn from green to red. And with you I can see a traffic jam straight up ahead' (Hendrix)

KUDOS TO FIREFOX for pointing out that we are going to be punished for this by 'government belt tightening'.

Kevin Falcon:
"I think the public needs to know that less revenues mean government is going to have to tighten its belt,"

No, they are going to take their belts right off and give us a real financial strapping.
"It's for your own good children, and don't you ever think of doing this again!"
That's the real reason they are going to make this as unpleasant as possible. Because if people get used to making their own decisions they won't have it any other way. Sort of like throwing the foxes out of the hen house. Sort of like a civilization evolving into adulthood.

Rich Voters in BC indulge in bashing their government.

National Post:

"...The entire debacle is a triumph of democracy and a abject failure of political leadership. The clearly expressed wishes of the people should be respected, and we applaud everyone who engaged in civic discourse and the democratic process. But it comes at a huge expense. The referendum itself has cost millions; the transition back to the original tax structure will cost millions more. The province will also be on the hook for much of the $1.6-billion in federal transition funding it received to make the initial change. Consumers will be stuck with a higher tax rate and higher prices. And perhaps most importantly, it will put the province at a disadvantage compared to the others, especially Alberta, which doesn’t have a provincial sales tax at all. ..."

anarcho

Yeah, and look at California. All you're doing is cherry picking.

BC citizens better off

$2 billion less coming out of our pockets.

And business will once again be paying the same taxes they were a year ago.

Its win-win for the citizens of BC and good for our economy that BCers will have $2 billion more to spend.

Besides how else can the Liberals expect us to pay those ferry fares that they've tripled in the last decade? Or those doubled medicare premiums?

Jesus and his fiery chariot in the sky?

In light of the "world is ending" rhetoric in the National Post, Vancouver Sun and Globe and Mail I checked the skies and Jesus hasn't come back yet.

So I guess the world hasn't ended yet after all.

Agreed Frank

Anyone who quotes the National Post as a source for accurate media reports is not even worthy of acknowledgment.

A little more from unrealisticman here in a previous posting called Worth Repeating;

“How can posters here seriously allow their ideology and hatred of a past premier, who now lives in Europe, to damage the chances of workers to keep their jobs with flippant comments like, "so what", when referring to the prospect of the film, tv, animation and video-game industry considering the reality that it's cheaper to do business anywhere else and them knowing that there is very real prospect that companies will locate elsewhere?”

This is all complete nonsense; so my response posting is worth repeating here;

We have had the old PST system since the mid 50’s. Any long time business in BC is well versed in the ITC and end user aspects, along with any other machinations….

To make the claim that BC will now be empty of business and there will be job losses after this small victory is propaganda only…..

Any company that relocates elsewhere will have the space left by them filled overnight with a new company that wants to work here.
We will do just fine.

If the HST is such a great taxation system then one of the two main political parties in BC can run that on their platform in the next election.

Everyone needs to remember that the 1.6 billion for changing to the HST was NOT all paid out to the province as of yet. We have only accepted a partial payment of less than half so far I believe….

r'man

Nice to see you suddenly concerned about the workers of BC and the shipping of raw logs out of the country. Because in the past you've said on numerous occasions that its all part of globalization and that its a good thing.

I also recall how you cared less about the fact real incomes fell in BC in the first half of this decade, the only province where that happened.

Since our HST-economy performed so badly last year compared to the rest of Canada perhaps we can soon look forward to seeign some growth after the HST is kicked to the curb?

Wrong Snert

California's anti-tax vote was 30 years ago and has absolutely nothing to do with today's revolts here, in Iceland or in Italy. Furthermore California's vote was against taxation. Except for some far-righters, the people of BC are not against taxation per se, only the HST.

correct anarcho

Correct anarcho,

And to go further Vanderzalm’s complaint revolved around the fact that this was not debated in the legislature as required but the HST decision was brought in by royal fiat or OIC or whatever the damn process is called…

The other thing I have been thinking about this morning is why business spent so much money on trying to promote their side.

This is the same business community that is complaining about being competitive in the marketplace?

How does spending almost 40 million on this campaign make anyone a smart businessperson??

This Chamber of Commerce fellow here is making a fool of himself with his statements about the loss…

Kevin Falcon

Mr. Falcon threw that "gem" out there, because he has to face the teachers in the coming week. He is now able to say that the rejection of the HST means by the public means the teachers will have to offer concessions, rather than job actions for higher benefits - even though the HST still has 18 months to run!

But the truth has never gotten in the way of a "good story" with our present government.

Campbell's to blame

Campbell ran a one man show as premier and his lap dogs in cabinet and caucus obeyed his every wish. That was well known to Harper when he asked Campbell to ram the HST down our throats. Their back room deal back fired and will now cost us, the taxpayers, tons of money.

So who came out ahead? Campbell that's who. Harper lined him up with the UK high commissioner's job if he lost his premier's job so this whole HST fiasco was supposed to be a win win situation for Harper and Campbell. Campbell lost his job so now he gets a cushy job in England complete with high salary and perks. And he gets to collect his gold plated pension plan paid for by the same BC voters that he punished with the HST. Harper was supposed to win with his new taxation powers.

Since this plan back fired I think BC should sue Campbell to recover our losses. Take away his pension and make him pay for causing the loss of revenue BC will now suffer. Then turf these liars to the dust bin of history.

Frank

Enjoy it while you can. Just remember, your predictions have been wrong many times before.

The difference is that now, Ontario has the HST with the concurrent ITCs. Québec needed the ITCs to retain business investments. During the fragile quiet-revolution years businesses needed incentives. And why did CP move to Calgary? Because Alberta has no sales tax. CN considered the same if Québec had voted to separate, although they liked BC, taxes and the cost of living were too high.

Businesses don't come out here because of the weather.

Our two neighbouring jurisdictions have no sales taxes. Now, neither does Ontario, leaving BC with it's 50 year old outdated sales tax and no ITCs, just a few obscure exemptions that even tax department officials were often contradictory over.

When introduced again the new tax will probably be re-designed for more efficiency, but it's gonna cost ya!

BC Liberal ridings

I just heard a bit of speculation that due to the large number of ridings that voted BC Liberal in the last election that recently voted to extinguish the HST - is the real reason Crispy et al suddenly wish to defer the election as long as possible.

Thoughts?

anarcho

Not wrong at least in the context of holding plebiscites for everything under the sun.

That's what you're really crowing about, with your mob rule.

And pianosaurus rex when Vanderzalm was in office he could be characterized as an individual sent out to chop down a tree. Amazingly he would get the job done even though he used the blunt side of the axe.

This tree he has just cut down has not finished falling yet.

Anyhow, the Tyee Tea Party is in fine form on this article. Just be careful what you wish for. You might just get it.

realisticman wrote:

"The difference is that now, Ontario has the HST with the concurrent ITCs. Québec needed the ITCs to retain business investments... And why did CP move to Calgary? Because Alberta has no sales tax...

Businesses don't come out here because of the weather."

Ah well that's it for me.....

I'm packing up the ole Datsun truck, renting a U-Haul, gathering the little woman, children and dog and we're heading back to Ontario, Quebec or the Maritime Provinces where they have the HST because prices are cheaper (passed on by the corporations) and jobs, jobs, jobs are there for the taking like low hanging fruit.....

Who are you trying to fool? I hope you're getting paid well to post on a Saturday, I'm headed to the beach.

Mob rule is what we are

Mob rule is what we are against Snert - the mob of crooks, sociopaths, megalomaniacs and the fools who follow them that constitute the ruling class and their sycophants.

The new PST

You can bet that the "new PST" will cost us. The Lieberals will make sure of that. One of the reasons that will make it cost more is that they will introduce a whole bunch of new exemptions for the corporate sector that will have to be made up for by us. The first being (remember it's our own fault for rejecting the HST) a 8% PST. We deserve this because we are after all "bad capitalists or as a previous Premier put it "bad British Columbian's".

Open The Books. Reveal All.

" think the public needs to know that less revenues mean government is going to have to tighten its belt..."

Then take more taxation from the goddamn spoiled brats ruling class/the Super-Rich. End all the friggin' welfare schemes that bleed us for them.

It really is simple, the way out of this right wing created dead-end that serves no one but the top 1% ruling class and their minions. And it's anarcho that nails it, along with Bailey and Lynn... though its going to take a revolution to achieve it. (And we even have Realisticman onboard for half of anarcho's programme initiative. Though sorry Reallybaby, it comes as a package... because the ruling class will fight it tooth and nail, to the last ditch and drop of our blood. And you know it as well as I.)

" 1. abolishing all forms of regressive taxation - tax luxury items and focus tax policies on income and corporate profits. 2. Extend direct democracy - make such referendums easier to do and make all controversial government policies subject to referendum with strict limits on spending so the corporate side cannot attempt to buy the vote as it did (and thankfully failed to do this time.)" anarcho

The key is real "democracy". Not this bullshit bourgeois democracy , but democracy that brings in "all the people" into the power equation, first, within the economy and its enterprises and then The State. It is time to end all the "secrecy". Let we pee-ons see all the books, and know everything, every last detail, so that we can then begin to make knowledgeable decisions for ourselves through referendum on major decisions re spending and war, polling and elections etc.

It is time for this latest bullshit period of history, that began with the English Civil War and the Industrial Revolution, to end, along with the class inequality that runs rife through the economy and the socio-political structure.

Anarcho is correct. We need to begin, step by step, to remove economic power and decision making from the ruling class and the ruling class controlled and manipulated State.

It is time for the real Supremacy of Direct Democracy. All the advanced technological tools that will enable it to work quickly and efficiently are now in place. (Which is why all the ruling class and its State talk about "controlling" the internet and social media. They know it too.) All that's needed is for "All Power" to now pass "To The People", in fact as opposed to simply abstract theory.

Which, in the final analysis, is why I say, we are talking about a revolution here. (A peaceful one if THEY will allow it. And the appearance of a "critical mass" of the citizenry onto the social and political scales is the best guarantee of that.)

anarcho

Just swapping one mob for another one. Things never change.

snert

So THAT'S what you are afraid of!!

r'man

"Enjoy it while you can."

I am, thanks.

"Just remember, your predictions have been wrong many times before."

What prediction did I just make? I don't recall making one.

"And why did CP move to Calgary? Because Alberta has no sales tax."

So get rid of sales tax then. 54% of BCers would love to see that.

"CN considered the same if Québec had voted to separate, although they liked BC, taxes and the cost of living were too high."

Strange coming from you because you've always been a big supporter of the free market and the resultant high cost of living here. You've always supported high housing costs for example.

"Businesses don't come out here because of the weather."

And your point is what exactly? Businesses were here for the 60+ years of the PST, and more didn't move here when we dumped the PST for the HST. If the weather makes no difference its pretty obvious scrapping the PST for the HST didn't either.

"Our two neighbouring jurisdictions have no sales taxes. Now, neither does Ontario"

Actually Alberta has the 5% GST and Ontario now has an HST of 13% on pretty much everything. There are no jurisdictions in Canada where consumers don't pay a sales tax of some sort.

"When introduced again the new tax will probably be re-designed for more efficiency, but it's gonna cost ya!"

No it won't. This government has only 2 years to go and they're not dumb enough to try to add $2 billion in new taxes to BC citizens while at the same time reducing business taxes by 700 million.

Tis a good day r'man, turn that frown upside down and rejoice. Your taxes just went down.

Foiling The Alphabet Game: D for Democracy

GST....

HST.....

Through the alphabet they go.....

What's next?

IST?

I for: Indulgent?.....Illegal?.....Insulting?...Insolvent? (All close but no cigar)....

Oh...Breaking News just in:...The envelope, please...

And the winner is: 'Irrevocable'.

All this distraction is very taxing to democracy.

Boring cliche

Snert, that the people are a mob is a ruling class slander that is millenia old. Cut out the cliches please. Obviously, you don't like democracy but do try to say something new.

Of course all this means to the Party,

... whichever Party it may be that rules the roost under this fraudulent political scheme being passed off as democracy, is that the loss of income from the HST only ensures more austerity is on its way.

The functional idiots running this governing shit-show are beyond redemption, and will not relent in any substantive way until we have a revolution to save the country from their whitewashed criminal conduct.

There is NO hope that a government born of this political environment can be solicited for help, so it is time we stopped asking. They through out the rule of law long ago and, in doing so, lost all claims to possessing any legitimacy.

All we now have keeping us in check is our own fear of the ramifications of their ever present of physical coercion. The truth is, they should be afraid of us. Their days are fast coming to an end, and their ignorance has proven they will not go quietly.

I think it is time to close out the game, folks.

Fancy words = lies

So, Falcon tells us that we now will have less revenue from taxes?

Did they not insist that the HST was "revenue neutral"?

Can somone please translate how revenue neutral can mean a different cash flow?

A Dangerous Political Game

Why didn't the Liberals back off on the HST?

Because the real power brokers in this Province - the B. C. Chamber of Commerce, the Business Council of BC, and the Independent Contractors and Business Association - ordered them not to. As much as people like to complain about the NDP being influenced by unions, the fact is that the Liberals are completely run by those three business organizations.

It is those three business organizations - headed by John Winter, Jock Finlayson and Philip Hochstein, respectively - that are now calling for the Liberal government to find another way to pass the tax burden from business onto individuals. After all, that was the attraction of the HST to business in the first place. The Liberals are treading on very dangerous ground if they continue to let these three individuals run the show.

We are losing sight of what happened!

I haven't seen many or any comments of how the Liberals, still arrogant, spent $6.5 million of our money to sell a dead mule, and no mention of the $18 million the Smart tax alliance and large corporations spent on ads. In the end we see that the the lying ads did change some peoples minds, talk about being bought with our own money. The Global web site had very interesting comments posted by poor losers eg: everyone that voted yes is an idiot and should not be allowed to vote or reproduce, these are the losers that probabily have incomes over $100,000.00 and the HST was only a small inconveniance while for the less than $30,000.00 it was a signifigant hit from their income. If the PST was so bad, why had the businesses not lobbied the Government for a better tax or did they and were brushed off. We can learn from the events we have witnessed, that is a new form of PST can be implemented that closes all the loopholes and does not favour large business over average voters. The reason the HST was brought in was the $1.6 billion so the budget deficit would be closer to the $485 million not a penny more as stated by Cambell, this would make it appear the HANSEN and Cambell would look like smart financial managers not snake oil salesmen which what they were, there was never any thought of any fall out we have 4 years and people forget. Well I haven' forgotten the $1 billion for BC RAIL or the $2.85 billion they have taken from the Education system or the HEU contract betrayel./

keep the money

a corrupt oil company executive bribes a corrupt govt official so they can rape the ecosystem in pursuit of their product, but there is a revolution that deposes the corrupt govt, and all natural resources are nationalized by the new people's govt.

the oil company does not petition the new order for a return of their investment and assets.

they are happy if they do not end up facing legal action, at home and in the land where the offense was committed.

steve made an investment in a bc racehorse that was a proven winner, but was found to be doped, so the purse was taken away.

he does not get his investment back, as it was spent, and he got what he spent it on. too bad he chose a pedestal rather than the glue factory.

we owe the feds nothing.

they owe the rest of canada an explanation about how they wasted 1.6 billion tax dollars, then rewarded gordo with a cushy tax funded appointment.

Graceless Liberals

The nasty swill continues. Kevin Falcon says, "we accept responsibility." yet continues to blame the public and threatens costly retribution. More than a threat, most likely. The many millions spent on misleading ads by business orgs was merely an investment to salvage the giveaways promised by Campbell. Count on Clark and Falcon to find ways to preserve the payouts for their supporters.

We voted...we pay

The contention with the $1.6 billion is a non-starter. The money is owed and we will have to pay it back, regardless of how underhanded and deceitful the HST was implemented by the Liberal government.

We need to keep in mind that the BC Liberals were voted in THREE times. In that time, there has been tremendous economic damage to BC - damage that could, and should have been avoided after the first election (a DUI by the premier and illegally ripping up contracts should have clued people in to the "character" of this party).

Bygones now - I think the Liberal party is done like dinner, quite frankly - but we ALL have to pay the price for those who voted these ridiculously dishonest people into power the second and then THIRD time around when, by then, they'd loooong since proven their contempt for the people in this province and deceitful party policies.

Principle vs Cost

At first I thought the spread on votes would be much higher in favour of extinguishing the HST, but the result actually makes sense when I look at it from the point of view of several posts on social networks like facebook.

I think there are two major ways that people decided to base their decision of which way to vote. The first were those who used the principle - disagreement with the tax and how it was brought about. These people voted to extinguish. The second way that some of my friends made their decision was not so much based on agreeing with the HST or how it was brought about, but the shear cost of it so far coupled with the high cost of extinguishing it. There is some validity in that, even if I don't agree with it. I believe we need more principle in today's world, not basing everything on perceived financial cost over the short term.

Christy is in the perfect position to fulfill her statement'We are going to change the process, we are going to change the way government engages with citizens.' She could change the election process to a fairer one than first past the post BEFORE the next election. If she really has confidence in how her version of the Liberals would be viewed, this would prove it, although...

On the topic of the election process, it makes no sense to allow governments to decide on the process. It should be done outside of government and can be done in a purely mathematical way. We need a system that cannot be played and will allow as true a representation of popular will as is possible. The process should not have to be timed to any election date, i.e. it should happen now, not wait for a more convenient time. Following this past federal election we know the system has failed by producing a "majority" rule that represents only 24% of the population. This is not the intent of democracy.

On Paying Back The $1.6 billion

"The contention with the $1.6 billion is a non-starter. The money is owed and we will have to pay it back, regardless of how underhanded and deceitful the HST was implemented by the Liberal government." papperazzi

And I don't disagree with this principle of paying back what is owed ... Not doing this is gotten away with, much too much.

Though let's be friggin' clear here, papperazzi. It was the deceit of the ruling class wealthiest among us, ANd The Liberal/Neoconservative alliance Party that speaks for them in politics, who foisted this debt onto all of us. Let these fine folks, le creme de la creme of the socio-economic order, be held responsible for "paying it back" to the people (the mob)... the consequence of their anti-democratic tax policy "theft".

It's elementary dear boy. Let those whom the tax served, via another attempt to shift the tax burden AGAIN onto the average consumer/working class tax payer, be held accountable for what THEY did.

It is only sweet justice, appropriate, and holding to account who is really responsible for THEIR debts to all society, the mob, "the people".

Let justice be served.

I like Dashwood's commentary

Stevo backed the Liberal Party's decision to implement the HST - but not with the approval of the majority in this here democracy. It is therefore up to the Prime Minister of Canada to explain that hole in his budget.

We have allowed finance to dominate the economy

and it is a global problem. Effectively, playing games by 'paper shuffling without value' is the norm for these corporate players of greed and profit (this includes the government).

And let's not kid ourselves, this federal bribe money, digitally transmitted to the BC government, which is now 'due and repayable' by the real labour of the workers, was a bait and switch, valueless paper shuffle.

As Jerry Munro said, its 'another attempt to shift the tax burden AGAIN onto the average consumer/working class tax payer", This is the modus operandi of our finance ruled economy and, in particular, the austerity programs which self-servingly ensue as the social safety net for the whitewashed criminals operating the board.

Thankfully, there are signs we might actually be catching onto the roots of this crime spree. But if we remain ignorant and continue thinking a current incarnation of any political Party is going to help us out of this quagmire, we are forfeiting any chance at a people's democracy. This much is guaranteed.

"I AM the people, the mob....."

"Yes, it is time to shut this game down, and replace it with "mob" rule, as the rwingers here would describe the "direct rule of the people", or true democracy.

If this be "mob rule", then I'm all for it." ~ Jerry Munro

American poet, Carl Sandburg would agree, Jerry - though this powerful poem has American references, its meaning is universal:

I AM THE PEOPLE, THE MOB

I AM the people--the mob--the crowd--the mass.
Do you know that all the great work of the world is
done through me?
I am the workingman, the inventor, the maker of the
world's food and clothes.
I am the audience that witnesses history. The Napoleons
come from me and the Lincolns. They die. And
then I send forth more Napoleons and Lincolns.
I am the seed ground. I am a prairie that will stand
for much plowing. Terrible storms pass over me.
I forget. The best of me is sucked out and wasted.
I forget. Everything but Death comes to me and
makes me work and give up what I have. And I
forget.
Sometimes I growl, shake myself and spatter a few red
drops for history to remember. Then--I forget.
When I, the People, learn to remember, when I, the
People, use the lessons of yesterday and no longer
forget who robbed me last year, who played me for
a fool--then there will be no speaker in all the world
say the name: "The People," with any fleck of a
sneer in his voice or any far-off smile of derision.
The mob--the crowd--the mass--will arrive then.

~ Carl Sandburg

Lynn.... Carl Sandburg

"I AM the people--the mob--the crowd--the mass." Carl Sandburg.

I agree so much Lynn. A brilliant piece of writing by this great US poet.

HST defeat ‘probably catastrophic’ to B.C. business - VanSun

It doesn't get any better than that, eh?

So before July of last year doing business in BC was almost mission impossible?

The upper classes and their bought-and-paid-for politicians didn't get their way(because we all had our say for once) and our province is now doomed. Of course, it's us 'stupid' people who have voted to destroy our provincial economy, right? As p-rex stated above, we'll be just fine without the HST.

I truly enjoyed participating in democracy and winning for once. Although I've chosen to destroy the provincial economy with my YES vote, I am enjoying this small victory against corporatism and all the bulls*it we have to put up with in the name of profit for the high and mighty.

Send your condolences to

The 'Honourable' Gordon Campbell
Canadian High Commissioner to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
666 Wanker St.
Westminster, London, SW1
United Kingdom

And teachers will get in the teeth ... AGAIN!

Except this time, I am taking an early retirement! I have had enough! No one cares for teachers! They always have to make huge compromise FOR the kids! The hell with kids! What about ME? WHo cares about ME? ANyway, I saved enough and will leave this "wonderful" province for anyone who is not a teacher! More work! MOre stress! Less pay! WHo needs it?

As an NDPer in favour of

As an NDPer in favour of GST, I am dismayed at the party's position and the referendum result.

This ability of vindictive politics to dominate sound economics is once again demonstrated.

This poses real problems for NDP, since our search for much more equity implies reversal of Liberal income tax cuts and maintenance (and increases) in expenditures on programs -- especially those which benefit the majority. Not easy "sells" if the Liberals hide behind a major "revenue commission" with promises to implement results after the next election -- in the meantime running larger deficits as an anti-recession measure.

I hope Dix & Co don't give away too much sound policy in an effort to find "political" acceptability.

Comparisons between California and BC law are facile

There are almost no similarities between the situation in BC and the one in California.

If you don't understand the difference between the circumstances surrounding Proposition 13 and the run-up to this referendum then you need to do a bit of reading.

The differences, both legislatively and practically, are many and the suggestion that there is any meaningful parallelism is, frankly, absurd.

The California situation is nothing like the one in BC and the suggestion that this referendum in some way is the precursor to BC becoming the home of a Canadian taxpayer revolt is risible.

anarcho

There's more than one way to skin a cat. Some how I get the impression that you are in favour of flaying the poor beast in the most painful fashion.

The HST was a stupid move. An even stupider move was voting it down. Tax reform could still have been brought about with far less cost to the taxpayer.

Are you going to try and tell me that when a significant number of voters cast their ballots out of spite that it is representative of democracy.

You may wish to re-examine your own definition.

Paying backthe 1.6 billion?

The HST will have been in effect for just over 2.5 years by the time its dumped.

Which means BC citizens will have paid an additional $5 billion in tax that they wouldn't have paid if the HST hadn't been adopted. Why not pay the $1.6 billion out of that?

Or, since business will have saved roughly $1.7 billion in taxes by then, why don't they pay it?

After all, the $1.6 billion never went to BC citizens, it went to pay back debt, debt ran up by Liberal giveaways to corporate friends such as subsidizing private power and overpaying for costly P3's.

overview

Let us recap the events around this charade called the HST;

This taxation system was brought in using a blunt object to use snert’s earlier assertion of Vanderzalm; (the blunt object being that Campbell/Hansen intentionally attempted to deceive the public.)

So in response Vanderzalm used a complaint about parliamentary procedures to begin a recall campaign against certain MP’s….
A blunt object used to bring forth this mess requires a blunt object to rid ourselves of this parasitic creation…..agreed??

Then it was Campbell’s lack of courage regarding his move that caused him to cave mentally and allow a referendum. This is the ONE and ONLY reason there was a referendum; Campbell lied, the public knew he lied and so did he; the agreement to hold a referendum is the guilty mind of Campbell at work, no question about it…..

People will attempt to make the reason a lot of other things for years to come over this…….this vote was not out of spite as snert would like us to believe; it is because people do not like to be lied to plain and simple…

So we then have a referendum in which the pro side, while at the same time complaining about not being competitive, and in need of the cash injection the HST would give them, spends millions on trying to convince us that we NEED this tax.

Who is the foolish one here?

Look at what the big business community has done; more than 700,000 signed the initiative from Vanderzalm, more then voted for the Liberals in the previous election, and still these people make a foolish business decision in an attempt to convince us otherwise….with millions they don’t apparently have and need tax relief…….what a complete charade….

And this is a wise use of their hold-over cash? This is how they spend their capital? On an already determined loser? And these business groups want to run this province?
Is this a joke? And these people are actually serious? I mean really, if I ran my business in this way I would have had to close my doors a long time back.

The PST began in 1954 at 3% I believe. Lots of business has been conducted in this province since. If businesses want to leave let them leave. We will replace ANY BUSINESS that does not want to be here, including the fool Hochstein and his band of doe –eyed acolytes…..

so that I can sell the item to you at a lower price.

So far, the stats that have come in during the "tenure" of the HST do not reflect this fairy tale.........

Of course, those who defend such unsubstantiable statements usually add the caveat "sometime in the future".......

No Fairy Tale

Every small business in BC did get lower prices once the HST came in. The hundreds of thousands of small businesses from day-care centres, buying a chair or a door-bell or a cup or a saucer or a computer, or any shopkeeper buying a door-mat or a computer or a bottle of Windex to keep the place clean, could recover the tax they paid. The starving artist could recover the cost of materials and equipment. The delivery person could recover the tax paid on the tires on their bike or van. The window cleaner could recover the tax paid on their squeegies and their ladders.

Small business employs hundreds of thousands of BCers. All supplies they purchase were cheaper under HST.

HST Dead, BC Provincial Liberals NEXT

Leaving a legacy worse than the NDP's.

Beneath contempt comes to mind.

thanks for the assistance in proving my arguments

I am in business and have been since 1971.

This claim here from unrealistic man is further proof that the pro HST side will lie over and over….….

From un-realistic man:

“I have to charge you more if I and others have to charge the PST on the many stages of the process that it took to present you with the product.”

This is complete bullshit; anything I use in the production of making a product or re-manufacture is PST exempt.

Every single double entry bookkeeper in the province knows this to be fact.

Any product that is consumed as the end user is taxable to the end user. If I purchased a hammer for use in my shop why should I get a 7% reduction when Joe six-pack standing behind me in the line at the counter does not…..

Further and more importantly un-realistic an confirms for all us the HST was indeed a tax relief for business with his statements about receiving benefits of HST refunds on products even though I am the end user like every other consumer.

This proves unequivocally that the HST was a tax forced upon consumer while giving a break to businessmen such as myself.

Thanks for assisting me with proving my argument …… it is over man…. you lost and lost badly; forget the sour grapes and move onto something more constructive.

Further from unrealistic man;

“The HST allowed me, and all others in the process, to get that PST component back so that I can sell the item to you at a lower price.”

Bullshit. Over 40 years of business I can tell you that not one colleague, friend or enemy in business has ever passed on ONE CENT OF SAVINGS to my clients.

Any savings goes to my capital investments or my family period. To do otherwise would be foolish indeed.

Savings on prices at the counter; has anyone seen anything go down in costs lately in BC?

What incompetent drivel…..

something I misseed on

Regarding the so-called emotional reaction to the HST vote no-one has made the statement that it cannot be brought back, properly debated and then voted on in parliament.

Why was it not done this way in the first place? Because it simply would not fly that is why. Wouldn’t fly then ,won’t’ fly now, and will not fly in the future….

Live with the reality of it.

Fairy tale

RickW was right, prices in BC didn't go down. In fact, they went up.

According to StatsCan prices in BC were 2.7% higher in June of this year compared to June of last year (the month before the HST was introduced).

So even though business got this big break on the backs of citizens, consumers had to pay more at the till.

In Alberta, which has no HST, prices rose only 2.1% over the year.

Why would prices rise more in BC than Alberta if business was saving all this money and passing the savings on to their customers?

pianosaurus

What you say about anything you use in the production is/was PST tax exempt, is correct. Although, as you must know, even some people in the provincial tax department at times were unsure as to whether something was exempt, or not, and the digital age changed things too, related to delivery and tangible 'goods'.

Nevertheless, the hammer example you cite is an example where you agree that machinery for manufacturing receives a tax credit under the HST. Expand that concept to a truck, a giant paper-making machine or a computer and software for professional film making and editing. Under PST these were not to be sold-on and therefore liable to PST being paid by the users. ie: less business investment in manufacturing capabilities and equipment under the PST system. Under the HST if a poster and banner maker or a printer bought a new digital printer, the PST as well as the GST portion of the cost was claimed back. Yes, the paper could be purchased with a credit under the old PST system, because the paper would eventually be sold-on to the end user, but not the machine. Under HST it is.

If you are a printing business in Alberta or Washington State your printer machine is 7% cheaper there than in BC under the old system. Under HST you pay the same as them.

It would be interesting to understand how you decide the price for the products you sell. What you seem to be saying is that the costs for any raw materials or any supplies that you purchase have absolutely no impact whatsoever on the price tag you put on the final item for sale.

Maybe. Do you just pick a price out of thin air?

Frank

You're being silly. A .6% increase in one month is virtually unmeasurable. Furthermore:

"Consumer prices rose 2.7% in the 12 months to July, primarily the result of higher prices for gasoline and food purchased from stores.

Energy prices advanced 12.9% during the 12 months to July, following a 15.7% increase in June. On a year-over-year basis, gasoline prices rose 23.5%, compared with the 28.5% gain in June."

Considering the enormous jump in energy prices it is amazing that the increase in BC was a miniscule .6%.

That's like saying that a kilo of potatoes just went up from $2.00 to $2.01. WOW man, a whole bloddy penny up! My god the world is ending!

The whole HST thing is a fairy tale

Look at this aspect of taxation forms for business…..

Either you are 12% in and 12% out just like your chequebook. On top of this is if you have paid for tax on an item this becomes an input tax credit (ITC) for the current reporting period.

The other way it is two forms; 5% in and 5% out; then it is 7% PST on all sales of merchandise any credits are charged back. So 7 in and 7 out ok??
Everyone with me so far????

Here is an example of a credit with the old PST;

I purchase piano parts from Chicago or Michigan or New York. The package goes through customs and has what is called a CBSA postal import form. This form charges me the full amount of the PST which I later use as an INPUT TAX CREDIT as the parts are used in the reproduction of a musical instrument.

It is the same with boats, cars, pianos, televisions, computers, think of anything you purchase that has to be manufactured…. Or remanufactured or rebuilt…..

Now if the complaint is the fact that a businessperson has to fill out two forms instead of one then that particular businessperson is too stupid to be alive and they need to find some unique way of removing themselves from the gene pool.

This one is over; the no side lost….there is no further to debate to have as any would be academic.

Oh and realisticman, my products are priced according to consumer market demands the market itself, and my competitors prices.
But once again you confirm for readers that the HST rebate on machinery that I purchase for my production is a rebate for business and not for consumers.

As an end user business has to pay the tax on that item; why should business receive a 7$ reduction on any machinery they use for making products?

In the last 25 years business taxation has dropped 40%

Has anyone witnessed good dropping in price?
Cheerio,
Dan

last sentence edit

should say goods dropping in price

r'man

"You're being silly. A .6% increase in one month is virtually unmeasurable"

Your psot is riddled with errors, are you sure you understand this subject?

It was a 2.7% increase, not a 0.6% increase. And god knows if there had been a reduction of 2.7% you certainly wouldn't be claiming it was "unmeasurable".

Also, you're comparing July with July, yet the HST was in effect both months. My comparison was June 2010 to June 2011, in other words pre-HST versus with HST.

Fact is its embarrassing for the pro-HST side that prices increased in BC faster than in Alberta in spite of the HST being in effect this June and not last June.

The facts are clear, prices rose 2.7%, faster than the 2.1% they rose in Alberta over the same time frame, in spite of the huge savings you and I both claim business enjoys under the HST.

There is absolutely no evidence that business passed on their savings to consumers. Which means BC citizens are paying $5 billion more in tax over the 2.5 year life of the HST and paying higher prices as well.

Oh, Danny ...

"Oh and realisticman, my products are priced according to consumer market demands the market itself, and my competitors prices. "

You actually mean to say that if the government took steps that would lower the costs to you of supplies, that you do not calculate these things and lower prices to your customers?

You actually mean to also say that your consumer market demands determine your prices? Like I can walk in and say what I'd like to pay? OK, I'm being silly but if your competitors are where you get your prices, then you can be sure that somewhere, someone is calculating the costs, the work involved and then coming up with a figure.

One other thing. Businesses that receive 7% reduction on machinery tend to employ people to run that machinery. That's the reason. Businesses saving multiple taxes on plant and equipment costs tend to buy more equipment and need people to run it. IT CREATES EMPLOYMENT.

Frank

We know that you really miss the prairies and the wonderful governments they have there but this constant comparing that you do with BC and Alberta is strange. Prices went up 2.7% in BC. They went up 2.1% in Alberta. That's a difference of .6% Frank. Not even one point. This, at a time when the Statistic Canada study you keep going on about reports that gasoline prices rose 28.5% in June. Alberta doesn't have a carbon tax like BC has. Maybe that was caused the less-than-a-penny percent rise. Can you get that Carbon Tax rescinded too?

realisticman

I'm not surprised you fail to see the obvious problem with your logic. Prices went up more in BC compared to Alberta.

According to your rhetoric that shouldn't have happened. But it did. Rather than deal with it you instead engage in petty chilish sniping.

Its why your side lost the HST referendum. The facts disagree with your hyperbole and most people trusted the facts.

At some point you have accept that your argument has, once again, failed.

Retoric asside, it was still not a fair outcome

I have had discussions with people (just) before the deadline to vote and was absolutely appalled, that they did not receive their voting package in the mail, as promised. Consequently they did not vote, and they indicated that they were in favour of abolishing this onerous extra tax in their lives.
I have a feeling, that there was dirty pool being played between the feds and the provs in precipitating a postal "strike(?)" at this critical juncture in time in order to create disorder in the daily lives of the citizenry of our province. People were thrown into confusion, due to missed due dates in financial dealings among other things and it was easy for them to not pay close attention to the HST obligations of the provincial election apparatus.
I hazard a guess, that 54% positively (negative) votes would possibly shown an even higher percentage, if it hadn't been for the "dirty" politics.
However, there is hope for the future, because it appears, that the people are beginning to wake up and the politicians are becoming less arrogant.

Rein in those excesses and rewards to the rich

My vote against the HST was primarily as a vote of non-confidence in the Liberal Government, not because I thought the HST method of collecting taxes was any worse than any other means. The government still needs a minimum amount of income and will get these funds by whatever methods are necessary.
This government needs to get the message that they cannot continue the practice of giving away our assets - BC Rail comes to mind as does the efforts to privatize BC Hydro and BC Ferries, to stop rewarding their "friends" by allowing exhorbarant salaries to executives of former crown corporations, and the paying the legal fees of criminals. They also need to get the message to stop spending money on frivolities and concentrate on the things that are important - health, education, and public infrastructure.
If our governments doesn't put the brakes on the excesses we are going to end up in a similar mess to such countries as Greece, Italy, Portugal, etc. and of course the US of A.

1.6 + 2.4 = 3?

Who made this error; or was it just to prepare us for an even deeper "hole"?

payback?

Why the hell should the taxpayers of BC refund $1.6 billion to the feds? The feds paid that money out to the provincial government to institute the HST. They did just that. Contract fulfilled. End of story. That the voters of BC then forced the severely truth-challenged liberals to get rid of it is another issue entirely. The province should keep the money.

One final comment for this thread

This was a MONEY BILL THAT FAILED.

Traditionally, with a money bill that fails to pass, this is an indication of a non-confidence vote in the legislature and would result in a visit to the Lieutenant governor triggering an election call.

Now do people understand why Campbell brought in this tax without debate in the Legislature, but used an OIC?

Taxation without representation is what this is commonly referred to….

Do people understand now why this was brought in immediately AFTER an election?

It is because this tax would have been voted down in the Legislature, triggering an election call and the Liberals would have been forced to admit this was part of their election platform.

And the NDP would be in power today.

Regarding the comments about Greece or Italy one does not have to go that far to look at the result of a VAT taxation system.

Have a look at the Maritimes. They have had the HST since 1996 or something like that. And we all know out here in BC what a bastion of economic activity the Maritimes has always been since right, right, riiiight!

This is what happens with a VAT tax. GDP remains stagnant. Consumer spending remains stagnant. Government income through taxation does not increase as expected.

Why is this so? Because VAT taxes drive businesses underground; look at the Martimes once again; the HST was just raised to 15% because the government did not receive the expected revenue ……..

Look at Greece; 23% VAT and the country is bankrupt; everyone has a Mercedes and a swimming pool…..

And these liberal ministers and the fearless leader claim to be a good business government??

It is a complete fucking joke.

The plot thickens

The introduction of the HST in BC also further aided in besmirching the crumbling Liberal brand... (even if the BC party is, in reality, a Reform/Con/Socred coalition).....enough to help Harper finally achieve his much-lusted-after majority in the last federal election.

For saying "Yes, my liege", Gordo won an escape route and a High-d-away in jolly ol'...

Overall a win-win situation for the two cozy chums.

Anyway, since it was ALL their idea.

And since Gordo signed the OIC.

Let them pay.

The High Commissioner will just have to lower his expectations and downsize to a wee basement suite in Tottenham.

Stevie can have the bottom bunk.

What did she mean by THAT

Christy Clark has the nerve to say the voter turnout was the result of her: (listening process" of engaging with voters across B.C. on the HST translated into a "huge voter turn-out.)"If she had listened she would have begun to transition away from the HST instead of spending $5M of our tax dollars trying to prop it up.The BC Liberals are a private sector corporate sponsored government.Like all the right,they use fear of the left to divide and conquer.It's one thing to listen,another thing altogether to hear what it is you're listening to.

snert

"The HST was a stupid move. An even stupider move was voting it down. Tax reform could still have been brought about with far less cost to the taxpayer."

We'll repeat ourselves one more time: tax reform would never have come about without solid, concerted action such as voting down the HST because any and all attempts at reform would have been completely ignored by the ruling party (as all ruling parties are wont to do) or hived away into "study sessions" or "breakout groups" or commissions to investigate, such as the wretched ones that so many times "studied" our albatross of a voting system.

Notice? Even though everyone agrees tha the way we elect our absolute rulers every few years is the worst thing since a backed-up sewer, we're still stuck with it.

Without concerted action in the form of a revolt, we'd still be stuck with an unfair and unrepairable tax system that takes more from consumers than it gives, while giving exporting businesses a free ride to excess profits.

It's a picayune thing compared to the life-and-death revolts going on in Egypt, Tunisia, Syria and Libya, but the principle remains the same: to effect change, a large mass of people must organize their world-views around a common cause.

Sorry, I appear to have missed your "common cause" speech - I'd have loved to see you stick your hand up and bring your "better ideas" for reform of the tax system out for discussion. Moreover, I'd have been tickled pink to see Gordo standing you up on the podium beside him saying "Ladies and gentlemen, I give you snert, a person with a truly great idea to make our tax system fairer for everyone, rich and poor, business and consumer alike. He will get us out of debt in one year and cure homelessness to boot!"

No, all I saw from you was just more griping and bitching at people who're upset that they've had so much wealth and opportunity taken away from them by the ruling party you voted for.

Misdirection

Funny how most news organizations say that British Columbians were against the HST.

I voted against it because the Government LIED.

You don't see much print on that position, but then, in our current Politically Correct world,
I'm not surprised.