NATO

North American Terrorist Organization.

From Imperialism's Falling Hands....

"NATO's goal is to protect Western industrial nations from high oil prices." Murray D.

Good one Murray. (Which has nothing to do with liking or disliking Khadiffi.) And appropriate take Mooney, on the NATO acronym. And entirely accurate.

Again, another western imperialist war of interference in a civil war and the internal affairs of a poorer and weaker country. hiding their imperialist ambition resource and hegemony grab behind the skirts of another bullshit "humanitarian intervention".

As the US Empire falters and stumbles, suddenly sliding into economic and social decline under the accumulated weight of Empire, Megolamaniac Harper seems to be anxious to have this country take up its imperialist/interventionist role in the world. Which, of course, will put us on the same collapse trajectory as this failed US State/Empire (Though bootlick Canada, because of our economic and class system dependency on the failing US Empire, is destined to follow them down into the rubble heap they're fast becoming anyway... unless we soon enough strike a different course away from capitalism, dependency and imperialism.)

That said, I certainly do not underestimate the resiliency of the "people" of the US, for all their faults. They are the more likely to move in a dramatic, even revolutionary way to deal with their gathering storm mess than we are, frankly. It's there in the history. We are still too much a "follower" State and people, boot-black tongues just a wagging... ready to step into line and serve.

Libya war

When someone blows other citizens out of the sky, funds international terrorism, and bombs his own people, someone has to stand up to him. The United States proved during the first part of two world wars that isolationism is a bankrupt international policy. [UNSUBSTANTIATED COMMENT REMOVED.]

ummm... Canada wants lower oil prices?

How does Canada, as a major net exporter of oil, benefit by protecting the world "from the threat of higher oil prices"? Would the civilian population of Libya generally benefit or suffer if Ghaddafi were to remain in power? How many civilians would die if Ghadaffi's efforts to kill them is unrestricted? Was Ghadaffi doing anything to the people in his country that might make you question the legitimacy of his continued rule? How does one keep a country's oil supply flowing from an F18 in air or a frigate offshore? Did NATO bombing interrupt or preserve Libyan oil production? Was Ghadaffi not already selling oil to the west? Where would Libyan oil exports be today if NATO had not concerned itself with Libya? How much more oil would be exported from Libya by a government that has the support of the Libyan people? Are the Libyans rebelling to provide the West with a greater supply of oil than under Qhadaffi, because they were being tortured and killed by the Libyan regime, or some other reason? How many Libyans have you talked to? Are there any circumstances under which you would exert yourself to stop mass rape, torture and murder? How did you inform yourself before forumulating your opinion piece? Not very much, I suppose.

Ummmm.... I

First, it is necessary to have more than a "propaganda view" of events in the Middle East, particularly Libya, and understand the competing imperialist dynamic at work there.

First, as this UK Guardian article below makes clear, the UK (and France in other sources) has an ambition to secure access to Libyan oil... and the US, whom it has served loyally in Iraq and Afghanistan, seems of a mind to reward them by assisting them... to the increasingly limited degree it actually can. And whither goes the US Empire and broader western imperialist interest, so goes bootlick little Canada, whose own strategic interests are tied to this collection of major imperialist powers. We rise or fall, as a "dependent" capitalist economy and "quasi-colonial State", with those whom we are dependent on. So, we serve.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/30/libya-oil-shell-megrahi

This link is a primer for anyone wanting to seriously understand the imperialist interplay going on in Libya... and wishing to have more than a propaganda view of the world.

So, first, the major western imperialist powers of Britain and France, and to a lesser extent the overall "hegemony" interest of the US Empire, want control of Libya's oil supply, in a shrinking supply world.

But there is one more fly in the ointment... Russia... which this additional article from Pravda below makes clear, has secured major deals and concessions with Khadiffi's regime... of doubtless concern to the European dependency interest... and to Britain and the US. (With France there in the mix as well.

continued next post...

Ummmm II...

continuing from previous post...

"Libyan war damages Russia's economic interests
24.03.2011
The events in Libya are impacting the economic interests of Russia. While Russian raw materials companies working in this country may still cherish the hope to participate in some projects, the loss of Rosoboronexport's contract with the Jamahiriya will amount to over $4 billion. In the event of the victory of the Western coalition the country's weapons market will be closed for Russia.

With regard to the companies working directly on the territory of Libya, there are three most active Russian companies - Tatneft, Gazprom and the Russian Railways (RZD). Stroytransgaz has an office in the country as well.

Tatneft has been operating in the country for 6 years. The company received a concession to develop an oil block in the Ghadames (Unit 82-4) and won the rights to three oil blocks in the Sirte basin and Ghadames. The Russian company is involved in the projects under the production sharing agreement with Libya's National Oil Corporation (NOC). In 2009 alone it has invested $43 million in the projects.

In 2007, following an exchange of assets with BASF company, Gazprom acquired 49% in oil concessions C96 and C97. According to the memorandum of cooperation with the National Oil Corporation of Libya (NOC) signed in 2008, Gazprom could take part in the tenders for the development of fields, mentions RBC Daily.

The company won the right to conduct exploration in the licensed areas #19 and #64. In mid-February, Russia's gas monopoly announced the purchase of the shares from Italy's Eni in the Libyan oil project Elephant (16.5%) for $163 million. The force majeure will likely prevent this deal from happening."

http://english.pravda.ru/business/finance/24-03-2011/117309-libya_russia-0/

So, you see, it is not enough to naively and on perceived "patriotic faith" believe the spin doctors of propaganda, in the formation of an accurate view of what is going on in the world and its events... especially when it comes to war. That is how one becomes but its fodder.

The war in Libya has nothing to do with, by way of its strategic motivations (outside propaganda), concerns for any real humanitarian interests. Were humanitarian interests the real motivator of events in the Middle East for example, all the NATO powers would now be at war with their repressive stooge regimes in Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Jordan etc. They are not because what motivates them really has little to do with how "the people" are treated or not, only their own especially economic, but also political strategic interests.

Parrots of propaganda do not make good students or analysts of real events or history, only echoes of official party lines.

Mindless destruction

Saw the Globe articles today about apparently normal, sensible people who got caught up in the group think of the hockey riots; can't understand what made them do it: it seemed -- for some inexplicable reson -- to make sense at the time; mob mentality, everyone else seemed to think it was a good idea, everyone was doing it...Sounds like our members of Parliament, visiting mindless destruction on Libya. The difference is the some of the hockey riot jerks came to their senses and are apologizing.

Thank you, Murray

And thank you almost all for super comments. I particularly liked:
"The difference is the some of the hockey riot jerks came to their senses and are apologizing."

The NDP is losing all credibility and respect over the Libya nonsense. Don't the organizers read the polls? Just when there is a debate about booting out the word "socialist" from the preamble to the party constitution, the consistently best coverage of NATO in Libya is wsws.org, the Socialist Equality Party's newsletter.

And The Word "Socialist" ... :-)

"Sounds like our members of Parliament, visiting mindless destruction on Libya. The difference is that some of the hockey riot jerks came to their senses and are apologizing." DReynolds.

Ooooo, very good one. :-)

First, I don't care what one labels the idea of a more democrtaic, sustainable, independent, co-operative and egalitarian economy and socio-political life and model in this country. Call it anything or nothing. But as for the NDP and the word "socialist", it is but finally conceding what has long been apparent... and was begun with the New Party out of the old CCF: The leadership of that Party, at least, has long desired to either negotiate a merger into the Liberal Party, or to replace it, as it now appears it might just do, as a kind of new "Liberal Democratic Party". There were apparently "rumours" at this Convention, apparently even reported briefly in the media, that negotiations were wanted or had already begun to the ends of a merger between the Liberal and NDP parties. Which I have long predicted here was in the cards. (During the last federal election, the right wing of the Liberal Party appears to have voted its choice, going Conservative anyway. All that is really effectively left of that Party is its ineffective "rump" anyway.)

What is really needed and to eventually emerge in this country, is a serious Left party or more preferably, in my view, a "movement of labour militants and other people's organizations representation" demanding radical and democratic social and economic change, and the defeat of corporate capitalism. There is no real Left in this country currently. Hasn't been for a very long time. Which is the fundamental "choice problem" of our politics.

Still, as the implications and reality of what this growing movement to the right of the NDP hits home over time, and its meaning and effects become clearer, a pressure, in my view, is destined to grow within this country, to precisely achieve this new direction in our politics. The ongoing deterioration of our economic realities, democratic choice possibilities, and already straining and unequal relationship with the US Empire and the rest of global capitalism, is already moving us in this direction, slowly but inexorably. And Harpers clear intention to resolve it by working closer with the Empire and the global capitalist system, is in fact going to have exactly the opposite effect, of making what is already bad, worse.

Ghadaffi's ???

NO thanks, they have been crazed terrorists from day one,and he has plenty of petro dollars. Nothing has changed, he just had all us naive westerners fooled to think he was, just an OK guy...... Wrong,

We missed him years ago, and now NATO has to finish off the long delayed job, another long over due terrorist, who's well past his best before date.... who's next???

NATO should of gone the way

NATO should of gone the way of the Dodo when the Berlin Wall fell and the cold war ended but the Warhawks in America had other ideas as war = Huge $$$$$ in lucrative contracts...

I really do not why they are in Libya other than for the oil...

Would NATO come and rescue Canadians if the people tried to start a revolution and Harper sent the military to fire on people?

When Dictators go Rogue ...

... our bankers follow the money - all the way to Tripoli:
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2076467,00.html

... oh wait - they're already there - just not very competent:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/may/31/goldman-sachs-libya-investment-fund

... unless, of course, bankers didn't plan for success:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MD14Ak02.html

... or in Baghdad:
http://www.rferl.org/content/article/1095057.html

Especially when US$ denominated oil ... I mean 'national security' ... is at stake.

A simple question

So if this is all about preserving the Western oil companies access to the oil and to keep the Russians and Chinese out....why did Russia and China abstain at the UN vote?
They have a veto. They use it all the time. Abstaining when you have a veto is approval of a resolution, plain and simple.
And if you believe that 30B was a gift to finance "African Unity".....seriously, the Nigerian banking system?
Get real. The only "banking" that comes out of Nigeria is internet scams that suck in the foolish.

A Not So Simple Question...

"...why did Russia and China abstain at the UN vote? " unhappy

Well, first of all, you would have to ask the Russians and Chinese. Seriously. (Have you read of their unhappiness from Pravda, in the link I provided?)

But to "speculate", which is all that is left to us, and judging from Russian behaviours since the post Afghanistan collapse, it would seem from their's and China's foreign policy behavioural vacillations, that these two powers are not yet ready to challenge US Empire and larger western imperialist dominance. That is first obvious... if for example, the Western powers, as they do all the time over Israel, simply act unilaterally anyway, ignoring a UN security council resolution opposing their interests, and calling the Russian and Chinese bluff. They would likely do what they are doing anyway. (Though that the Russians and Chines have been having shared military policy conferences, which include Iran, and joint military manoeuvres, again with Iran as an observer, it would appear to me that they are certainly preparing for the day. Plus there are other "economic issues" involving trade etc, that still restrain them, involving their concerns with the health of the global capitalist system, which they are now part of, if the US precipitously collapses. They would be dramatically effected. Russia also currently provides much of Europe's oil supply, which would be jeopardized if they now challenged western empire supremacy.)

The point being that, though we are not privy to the internal thinking and decisions of these two major powers, anymore than we are the US or even our own government, it is clear that they are opposed to and concerned re the western intrusion into the Libyan civil war. The publicly stated record is out there. And that the drift and pressures to war between the major "western" and "eastern" powers is building. But for which "they" will want to be sure they are ready, before they signal their readiness to challenge the US Empire and broader western imperialism.

If and when the US does precipitously collapse however, and the global capitalist trade and financial system fails majorly, and for what appears to be an extended or terminal length of time, in which direction capitalism everywhere is clearly moving, certainly all of my bets are off. For a depression era, pre-WWII global economic and political environment will have been created.

amerika uber alles!!

just another sorry example of kanada serving as lackey lapdog for the imperial warmonger worried about access and kontrol of our oil under their sand. washington has the man they want installed in ottawa. bring on that new fleet of stealth fighter bomber jets!!

Simple answer

"...have you read of their unhappiness from Pravda, in the link I provided?"
comrade

Nope. I try to open it and this is the message displayed-

"This site is blocked because of exploits"

Exploits? What the hell. Are the soviets still running Pravda? (all joking aside I've read other news reports on that subject. Noted.)

Lets back up. The reason I asked the simple question was b/c of this-

"According to Escobar, Gadhafi declared on March 15, "We do not trust [Western oil] firms, they have conspired against us ... Our oil contracts are going to Russian, Chinese and Indian firms."

So if the Russians and Chinese had the inside track to be awarded future oil contracts then you would think they would veto for sure and then just sit back and wait.
They'd have nothing to lose no matter which way it went.
By abstaining they are handing the country over to whatever western backed internal group that eventually takes power.
Thats my simplistic way of looking at it, FWIW.

Agni Unsimple Questions I...

"...you would think they would veto for sure and then just sit back and wait. " happy.

First happy, we have to be absolutely clear, Russia is a "private enterprise" capitalist country, pretty much as is found in the rest of the capitalist world. Nor do I make the same mistake as you re the old Soviet regime, having been "somewhat" and "minorly" on the "inside"... from which experience I cam away with the conclusion that in fact, the old USSR was really a "State Capitalist" rather than socialist of "communist" country.

Your attempt to obfuscate the current Russia and confuse it with its past, some features which it retains, largely arising out of the historical culture of Russia, does not apply. Period.

But to your attempted point: "You" might indeed think that the Russians, Chinese (along with India) having been the main beneficiaries of Qaddafi/Libyan oil contracts would have vetoed the NATO/US Empire invasion. But then, it might be suggested that is because you are a straight line, even simplistic thinker, which I think is your problem here. You fail to understand the "complexities" of their position vis a vis the US Empire and NATO.

Britain and France, as the Guardian makes clear, resent the concessions to Russia and China, especially after having released the "Lockerbie Bomber", and the failing US Empire fears this successful "intrusion" into the Middle East as well... especially as it is being forced by its own internal realities, to begin to militarily withdraw from the region.

Life is complicated Happy, and the risk of war, especially around this issue of diminishing oil supply, is ever present. (Europe is already overly dependent on Russian oil.) And while Western Imperialism is much weakened and fragile, still extremely dangerous, like a wounded animal. The more prudent course from the Russians and Chinese perspective might just be to bide their time for now. For while they were in Libya as "invited business partners" and in the course of more or less "legitimate business", an armed intrusion onto Libyan territory by the major western powers is going to be seen quite differently by at least major players in Libya... even allowing a rebel win, of sorts, with Empire assistance. Which rebels, its is clear, would have otherwise been crushed long ago, however one views them. (And Russian and Chinese control of what is reputed to be the largest remaining untapped oil reserve in the Middle East, must certainly send a shiver down Europe's spine.... and the US.)

continued next post...

Again Unsimple Questions II...

from previous post...

Long term conflict in Libya, in the even of an outright invasion by the Wester Imperial powers, as seems to be shaping up, is entirely likely to be another quickly repeated, long term, further "blood and treasure" draining war as in Iraq and Afghanistan.

We shall have to see, it appears, of course. Yet it seems to me, from the perspective of long term Russian and Chinese strategic interests, while they are not yet in a position to "frontally" challenge The Western Empire, they indeed might well be advised to "hang back and loose" for now. Meanwhile, the Western flies ever tangle and weaken themselves more, in the sticky web of the Middle East.

There is more than one way to skin a cat Happy, and more than one way for one imperialist ambition to be defeated by another.

And this will go on until there is a new "post capitalism" global relationship, where countries respect the territorial integrity of each other, and do not interfere directly in each others affair. Whatever you or I think of it, the "Peace" requires that each country, at least until there is some other entire reality in human relations, be left to resolve their own internal affairs... Which does not mean that you have to like it or trade with it, just not invade it, whatever your rationale justification.

More Happy...

Sometimes, Happy, the best way to defeat an opponent, as they say, is to give him all the rope he needs to hang himself... Which is what I expect is at work here.

And hang itself, the US Empire is in the process of doing. Has been for a long time now, ever since the last war it only ever really won... against Japan. And just as the British and French Empires did before it. And which enterprise these two old Empires seem to be about again.

Detainee Documents?

Afghan detainee docs were released today. Maybe Jack and Bob should be asking what is happening to prisoners taken by Canada's new allies in Libya. Or maybe they are not taking prisoners. Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose....

Detainee Docs...

"Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose...." DReynolds.

So it would seem, my friend. So it would seem.

But still, "The moving finger having writ, moves on, returning not to cancel out so much as half a line." Which is true also. :-)

peak oil apocalyse

its all about oil, not fertile potatoe fields. skuse while i drive my suv to the corner for a pack of smokes and some chips. why the f..k can't i grab a 6 pak like in the states or guebec?