HST misleading taxpayers

The HST takes $2 billion out of consumers pockets. Every economist knows that it is consumer spending that drives the economy. Companies have had tax money pumped into their coffers, what do they do with this money? They buy equipement to eliminate jobs. In BC the only time NEW jobs are created is when there is surge in demand for our resources. Look up on the interment - 100 top paid executives and you will find they are mostly running resours extracting and exporting compays

I'm voting yes to Axe the Tax

I'm voting yes to to Axe the Tax.

The HST is a permanent, annual 2.5 billion dollar tax shift from corporations onto the backs of BC citizens.

(The original 1.7 billion Carole Taylor referenced plus the extra $800 million now being collected).

And it has hit small businesses hard like hairdressers and restaurants. Plus how many small trades jobs will now be cash only?

I'm happy to pay taxes to support government services. But not the HST. It is not the right tax.

Can't Wait To Vote

I can't wait to vote Yes to Cancel the HST. This is one of the few democratic chances we have to speak up against an arrogant government.

If we don't use this chance to speak out now, when will we ever?

Great coverage by Mr. Tieleman as always.

sspooner

To debate the merits of the HST one must lump it in with value added taxes. Actual research world wide, on value added taxes proves that the tax burden shift created by the VAT has done little or nothing for the economy of the countries adopting it.

Taxation is a burden not a business, a burden we all should share. When a company hires a person to do work for it, should not that work be taxed with the same VAT as our barber is now compelled to charge?

Should sspooner wish a real debate, lets ask why the legal entities that corporations have become are not taxed equally along with the taxpaying citizens?

There has been a great number of studies on value added taxation over the years that have, without giving them a Liberal spin, proven the tax to be regressive. I personally do not wish to support any form of regressive taxation, especially the HST.

FAMILIES FIRST

As I see it Crusties Family First program refers to the family of corporations that support the B.C. Liberal Party and their back room boys. It's all relative is it not?

It just hit me

But it is Families First. The problem is that Clark and the Liberals don’t finish the statement. The statement should be spoken to its completion:
“Families first to get screwed”

@sspooner

Please list the 'merits' of the HST.

I can think of only one: It is more profitable and cheaper for big business.

It is neither fairer, more equitable nor more progressive than other forms of taxation.

In fact, quite the contrary.

What did you have in mind?

If you think you can handle a 'real' debate then please, let's see it.

Better choices

A) Keep the HST but

Since it is obviously more efficient to have one tax than two why not just raise the corporate tax to compensate for tax drain from the great unwashed to the corporation

B) Better - Get rid of the HST and PST and replace with income tax.

If 2 taxes (HST,income) are better than 3 (HST,income, PST), then it follows 1 tax is better than either - income tax alone. It is universally accepted that a progressive income tax is the fairest tax scheme.

C)Best - Tax the individual not the corporation

Why not make all corporate earnings (ie retained earnings) deemed to be dividends and taxed in the hands of the individual. This happens on the rare occasion when a corporation is dissolved.

@ snert

hmmm, my point of view: vote yes to axe the tax, yes to get rid of the permanent $2.5 billion tax now being shifted onto the backs of ordinary BC citizens EVERY SINGLE YEAR.

Versus your argument of easier book keeping for businesses?

Wow. Sorry, easier book keeping is not going to convince me.

Of course, it will be really easy book keeping for the trades now going to cash only.

And lots of small businesses would prefer to have the old PST system back, extra book keeping and all, instead of having to lay off staff or shut their doors from lack of business.

@ sspooner - you are absolutely right!

Tax policy should be based on what's best for BC. And how would we know that? Discussion - consultation. In this case, that hasn't happened. There was no discussion before this tax was imposed and no consultation to see if it was, in fact, the best for us. It was dumped on us by a government desperate to hide the true deficit brought on by its incompetence. And it was dumped on us after they said they weren't contemplating it. When their own Finance Minister says it wasn't a good tax for us, I kinda gotta believe her.
And for those reasons - as well as the fact that no politician is going to lie to my face and be rewarded - I am going to Vote YES to extinguish the HST.

@sspooner

You engage in exactly the tactic you accuse Bill Tielemann of. Bill at least offers a pretty good description of the deceitful way the government is treating the voters. So accept GWest's challenge or spare us the rhetoric. I can't understand how Elections BC tolerates this kind of meddling in a referendum from the BC Liberal Government. Allowing ads that completely distort the facts is outrageous not to mention the one-sided spending.

"This particular tax takes the tax off business, it takes $1.8 billion off businesses and puts it on consumers, and so that shift is a shift that is ideological as well as factual." -- Former BC Liberal finance minister Carole Taylor on the HST. I ask you. What part of that statement don't you understand?

spooner wrote Unfortunately

spooner wrote

Unfortunately the government is doing an equal disservice to this important issue, deliberately avoiding any substantive discussion of the actual issues

so you do see that the liberal party sees the tax as indefensible.

why would you support a tax that cannot be justified by those who wrote it?

i see this vote as a chance for the citizens to own responsibility to fix the govt of bc, and the first step is to show the liars we are done with them, and there is nothing they can say or do to regain our confidence or respect.

or escape our scorn and our wrath.

we must reject this tax altogether, then do the same to the liberal party of bc in the next election.

i wish i could say who should replace them, but it is imperative they be replaced.

vote yes, dump the hst.

@snert

Axing the tax, if there is a cost, is a cost against the BC Liberals legacy. You know like Fast Ferries. It is the price BC must pay for believing liars, not once but twice. It is a lesson learned and the more painful it is the more it will be remembered and if we forget history we are destined to repeat it. I voted "yes" because I think a "do over" in the light of day and open debate is much better than the deceitful slimey way this was done and I'll be dammed if I will reward the Christy crowd for lying through their teeth.

YES I REMBER

I remember the fast ferries, they are the ones that the new Liberal Government, under the guidance of our illustrious Gordon Campbell, refused to accept an offer of $85 million. They are the ones that set those ferries to auction and sold them for $18 million. A loss of $67 million that continues to be blamed on the previous government.

What losses will axing the HST bring? Why none at all if we recover them from other pockets. Only open and fair debate will determine who's pockets that will be.

Here's to People First!

HST

HST ...This tax will be on..Mutual fund fees, RRSP`s, all commercial real estate sales new and used, vacation property, anyone who purchases a business pays HST..A big business buy, someone buys brentwood mall for $20 million dollars the HST $2.4 million dollars, that cost would be passed on to the shops, to the customers.

HST on used cars, boats, planes, HST on hunting licenses, fishing licenses, drivers licenses, HST is costing BC Ferries $6 million per year, that has to be passed on to riders.

HST on funerals..

R.I.P. BC Liberals...You Done!

The HST makes sense

All taxes suck. Get used to it. The old PST/GST system was unworkable. At least the HST makes life simpler.

As for paying the tax on used plane sales, I don't think many people would find that objectionable. Anyone who can afford to fly a plane can afford to pay HST on it.

The one outstanding source of tax revenue that all governments have consistently overlooked is the tax on marijuana sales. That tax alone would be worth billions of dollars annually. It is high time for change...

Fishy smell

You pick one item, justify new taxes on people`s retirement.

No prices reduced, no jobs created, nothing but lies from Crusty and birdbrain Falcon.

It doesn`t matter, the HST will be defeated, the latest polls have those opposed to the hideous tax, 68% opposed, 28% for the HST, 4% undecided.

Bring on the general election.

HST - a Corporate Coup D'Etat

Wake up, folks.  The HST is not an accounting or economic issue but raw, power politics:  a coup d’etat by the richest people in Canada (and beyond). The HST is just the latest smokescreen on their secret corporate agenda to accelerate the wealth transfer from the middle-class to the very rich.
This is BC's chance to show the world how to reverse this anti-democratic power grab. If we succeed, what a beacon of hope we will have lit to inspire the people of the world to throw off their oppressive "VAT chains".

Our strata fees went up last

Our strata fees went up last evening thanks to the HST being added to services.It's tough ass for the seniors on fixed incomes as they see their pensions being eroded again. It's real easy. When the ballot shows up this week. Read the question very carefully and vote YES. The attempt to bribe us with our own money with a one sided PR program is doubly insulting

Hey fishcounter

The old system of PST and GST was unworkable? How long has it been in place? If you want a simpler life, move to a country in the developing world.

UNWORKABLE

The old GST/PST system was so unworkable that we used it for years and years and years. Only when pushed by the federal government and big business did our Liberals see the light, and realize that they could get more for less, out of our pocket to boot.

Wasn't income tax only a temporary measure to pay for the war? Too bad that it became unworkable as well as the rules were changed to protect the wealthy.

CFAX news just reported

Christy Clark claiming that the confusing referendum question was posed by Vanderzalm and Tielman suggestions.

I thought the question was posed by our incompetent Craig James of Elections BC. Nowhere in the following article did James claim that he posed this question around what Fight HST organizers recommended. Will the LIBS try and use this as an excuse to re-do the referendum?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/british-columbia/bcs-hst-ballot-question-boiled-down-to-17-words/article1794288/

A drop of sense

...in a missive of nonsense

"Surely tax policy should be based on what is best (prosperity and fairness) for the collective entity that is BC..."

Aboslutely. That's what Seth Klein of the CCPA was calling for. Too bad nobody important is listening.

Government isn't interested in wholesale revisions of the ptax policy - too much work. They'd rather take the easy way out - and that goes for Gordo and all the previous administrations too.

Were we interested in a more sensible and fairer tax policy, we'd tax evils and not tax the good things. So there would be more tax on pollution and waste, criminality, capital gains and stale capital. There would be less tax on good things like personal income.

Honestly! If we want people to have personal income so they can spend it, why are we taxing it?

That's what makes comments like this so ridiculous:
"It is universally accepted that a progressive income tax is the fairest tax scheme."

It is not accepted by any economists, nor will you find it in any books. It is merely the easiest way of a number of bad ways to collect the funds needed to run the government. There are many, many better ways - progressive and neutral - of taxing society so that the burden falls more equitably on those who can best afford to pay it, as well as those who benefit most from it - including foreigners living outside the country who remain substantially un-taxed, depending on where they live.

A higher royalty regime on all our natural resources including water; properly-structured corporate taxes on operations and domicile and not on investment; eliminate personal exemptions on capital gains taxes; Tobin taxes; bigger user fees on contractors who dump perfectly-good houses in the landfill to satisfy the demands of "taste" - there are all kinds of things we could be taxing that we aren't.

And don't tell me that we can't do these kinds of things because they require federal cooperation in taxing authority - we already got that when we agreed to move to the HST.

No, the HST is no worse a tax than what replaced it, but it's no good tax. Its worst feature which nobody has yet addressed is that the very poorest in our society - binners and street people with no real income, no residence and no place to mail a refund cheque to, even if they could file a tax return to get one, get no HST credit but they have to pay HST each and every time on nearly all of their purchases!

And that's why I'm voting against the HST.

Vote YES!

Drop in the Bucket

"A big business buy, someone buys brentwood mall for $20 million dollars the HST $2.4 million dollars, that cost would be passed on to the shops, to the customers."

You know, that's a good point. If it's true (and I assume that it is because I don't know), that would mean if another corporation elsewhere in Canada (Say, Homburg REIT) bought Metrotown from Cambridge Ivanhoe (domiciled out of Montreal) and had to pay HST on the transaction, that's the only time I could see a net benefit to the provincial treasury. Cambridge loses out on the sale price the purchaser would have paid because of the tax, and the purchaser loses out because he can't recover the tax on rents. At least not yet. Which means the shareholders (and possibly rest of the taxpayers of Canada) would end up footing the bill for the tax of that trasaction.

Or am I wrong? Seems too incredible to be true.

It is true Zalm

HST on all vaction property...If some person saves, borrows or whatever and buys a business he pays HST...And there is no HST credits to claim back.

If someone builds a new business it`s a different matter..

But consider this..All these existing businesses we have in BC...They can`t claim back taxes....

Business transactions have taken a monster hit...A million dollar business has $120,000.00 in HST...That has to be passed on to customers.

HST is also costing BC Ferries $6 million dollars, that too must be passed on to riders.

Harpo started this

Please remember, the HST was presented by the Harper Feds. with a $1.6 billion transfer goodie to a financially troubled Campbell government. How could they refuse?

We were then told that the HST would streamline the tax system, making it less costly and problematic for all sorts of businesses. This would be a good thing if that's as far as it went, and proponents still tout this feature.

But what was downplayed until later was the removal of PST exemptions, not just on the up front costs of real estate, dinners out, haircuts or Greyhound and ferry fares, but also on downloaded costs from legal or medical practitioners' expenses or farming equipment and supply costs.

Skywalker, thanks for the yes-no referendum question previous clarification. Seems I was one of those 20% of B.C.ers that didn't look carefully at the question.

Having said that, I would vote no, if and only if, all the previous PST exemptions were incorporated into the HST for a minimum of 10 years, then reviewed, and written into legislation. Streamlining the tax system is a great idea and could still be done with the exemptions in place.

But a 2% HST decrease by 2012 (maybe and for how long) simply doesn't cut it. I'll vote YES to axe the HST.

It'll cost us either way, thanks to the Harpo-Gordo funding deal, so lets do it the correct way.

HST

There is a 1.6 billion dollar cost to reinstate the PST.

The problem with HST isn't that it's a value added tax, the problem is that one if its effects is to shift the tax burden from corporations to individuals.

This can be addressed by adjusting tax policy appropriately to relieve the shift. For example, income taxes could be rebalanced.

The best solution for BC is to keep the tax and address the tax burden shift without incurring a massive payback to the government. Axing the tax is shortsighted.

Owl...

The Christy Cluck Clark HST fix, the lowering the tax to 10%.

That isn`t happening in 2012...Crusty Clark said the HST will be lowered to 10% in,

July 1st 2014....Not 2012...The first 1% drop ..Clark has stated the HST will be lowered to 11% on July 1st/2012..and to 10% on July 1st/2014.

No one can promise tax rates that far in the future, remember the federal election in 2008, we were told Canada wasn`t going into recession, remember our provincial election in 2009.

Campbell and Hansen said.."a $595 million dollar deficit maximum"..And how big was the deficit?

$4billion dollars, we were told in writing pre 2009 election that the BC Liberals weren`t bringing in the HST, we were told BC is in great shape, no recession, we were told that we are the best place on earth, a tiny deficit, no new taxes, blah blah blah.

Anyone who believes a tax change promise 4 years away is a fool.

@nolanrh

When do you think the readjustment will happen if we sanction the lie that is the HST? I predict not as long as the liberals are in power which means that it is better to make sure that they go back and do it right...now. Vote "yes" for honesty.

Skywalker

Two wrongs never make a right.

Zalm

As if they really care and that it would make any difference to their way of life. For the most part it's their choice to operate under the radar.

Harmonized What?

Listen, I really do not understand why the federal government,Provincial government, as well as big business wants British Columbians to think we are being treated fairly by having them impose higher taxes on consumers giving business huge tax breaks. If you want to harmonize taxes, great do that, get rid of gasoline tax, liquor tax, sales tax, enviroment tax, income tax, and the other 101 taxes, too many to mention, combine them all into one harmonized tax and that is all any of us have to pay! I agree full heartedly with the author, AXE THE TAX! Neither the Federal Government, nor the Liberal seated Provincial Government can be trusted! This is our only opportunity to make this government do OUR bidding for once! Vote YES to extinguish the HST, once and for all!

Binners and the poor

"...(I)t's their choice to operate under the radar..."

Really?

Please, something more than anecdotal proof.

@snert

What are the two wrongs? The liberals lied. That's wrong. The are held to account with a "yes" vote. That is right. Anything else is the result of the first and only wrong.

HST just another tax scam

Rantnic you're correct. The original income tax wasn't just supposed to be a temporary World War One tax, but it was also supposed to be only applied to very wealthy and well to do individuals. Seems it was incrementally flipped around 180*.

Zalm, "Honestly! If we want people to have personal income so they can spend it, why are we taxing it?"

That's the issue of a graduated income tax vs. a flat income tax. It's also the reason for most of the PST exemptions. It allowed most low to mid income earners to have some disposable income, while the wealthy still have more than they need. Forget that "trickle down" nonsense.

The economic system that made sense to even guys like Henry Ford, that his workers should earn enough to be able to purchase the products they manufactured and thus also support their communities by purchasing items that their neighbours produce or their kids' friends sell, has been parasitically overturned.

Of course his own shareholders tried to sue him for profit losses with his sensible policy.

Big producers could care less if their suppliers here are on the edge of bankruptcy or local consumers can't afford their products, if they can get the needed items for production elsewhere and if they can sell their products to some distant market at a huge profit. But they push for every penny, regardless of externalized costs, the price of competitive global capitalism.

Just consider the double tar sands pipeline plans, raw bitumen piped to Texas or Asia and imported chemicals to keep that raw bitumen flowing from Alberta. Some jobs, comparatively low royalties, environmental diminishment and human health problems, but huge corporate profits. As to eastern Canada, oil all imported from elsewhere. I recall a "freeze in the dark" quote.

This HST fiasco is just one more way for them to pinch more pennies or mega dollars. Vote YES to eliminate it.

If the libs want it, it's bad for people

This tax and Harpoon's transfer cash are part of a liberal scheme to cover up a lie the very people who are lying to us now, sans the resigned-in-disgrace campbell, told about the state of BC's finances before the last election. And, yet we did not fire them? And, of course, ms. clerk is very likely lying now (I can't believe this person is premier), on our tab no less, to get us to vote for letting the liberals' corporate masters tighten their iron grip on what's left of our well-being. It is another clear example of the contempt this gov't has for the abused majority, that they would foist this on us after, get this, promising not to do so. I can't believe we're listening to these criminals and their deluded apologists, but then again we live in a province in the grip of yet another corporate-media-induced sports hysteria, which, like all created hysterias, has the effect of distracting large numbers of people. Nothing wrong with some fun and games but when the majority is clearly disengaged, a not accidental result of the systemic dismantling of the child care and education systems, we must be concerned about how far people have been removed from the decisions that truly affect them, and for the consequences of that distance and disengagement. What is the democracy we are apparently blowing up other people for worth if gov'ts require that citizens do not pay attention? Working families here, among whom I have lived and worked for 50 years, have suffered enough at the hands of these brutal, arrogant ideologues. Let's not vote for more suffering, despite the expectation of this gov't that we will do their bidding.
And, though we are not surprised that the wording of the referendum is designed to trick the exhausted voter, please vote YES to extinguish this tax, and any hope the liberals may have that we're the fools we'd have to be to trust them.

The only people who should

The only people who should be voting for this tax is business owners and corps because they are the ones that benifit from it. Anybody else that votes for the hst must be stupid. Unless of couse - you like paying the taxes for the corporate bums.

Twattle

Do you as a person want to pay more in taxes...it's as simple as that.

You tell me why business should be exempt from paying taxes on goods and sevices.

If you want to operate a business in BC, that is the price you pay to generate revenue. Like it or lump it. I would almost be willing to bet a family would pay more in applicable PST, than a manufacturer did with all the exemptions previously in place.

I'm voting "NO" and I hope

I'm voting "NO" and I hope the majority agrees. I don't want the new NDP government mired in the difficulties of reverting to PST and postponing the much more important business of improving services and raising the taxes needed to finance them -- in a fair way.
The HST is "efficient" in the sense of involving less bureaucracy to collect, and avoiding cascading rates on goods/services which purchase inputs.
The HST is also "fair" in that it covers services as well as goods. (Bear in mind that services loom larger in consumption by the rich than the poor.)
It's regressive impacts do need to be addressed. Directly by increasing the rebates for low income earners (and raising the low income threshold); indirectly, by improving progressivity of other taxes (higher rates in the upper income tax brackets, higher corporation tax, return of the capital tax on banks, removal of breaks for mines and oil and gas). THOSE are the issues I'd like to see the next NDP government addressing!

@frank2

If Christy wins this vote - and she will with enough people like you - then your last paragraph is a pipe dream.

Simple Math for the uneducated...

The Liberals claimed the HST was revenue neutral, now the Dinning group claim it`s a $850 million dollar tax grab.

A 1% percentage point reduction in the PST side of the HST(We can`t reduce Ottawa`s cut, they will get their 5% no matter what)will cost the BC treasury $850 million dollars,

That means in simple terms, the HST at 11% won`t bring any new services to BCers, a quid quo pro...A saw off, even steven..

Now let`s carry forward, a 2% percentage point cut in the HST will cost the BC Treasury each year, $1.7 billion dollars from the PST/GST system that we had forever.

I don`t mind people taking one side or the other, but let`s keep the facts straight, a 2% percentage point cut in the HST would spell fiscal disaster, and, don`t bother with the claim that corporate taxes are being raised by 2% percentage points, the will only raise $300 million dollars.

Crusty Clark`s "fix" is not do-able, and I dare any so-called economist to dispute or debate on the financial numbers.

Maybe G West could weigh in on the fiscal idiocy of the BC Liberal economic platform.

PAYBACK?

All this talk about paying back the feds is moot when we have received only a part of their bribe. Also that bribe was accepted by the Liberal government against the wishes of the people so the people should not have to bear the burden of the liberals grave mistake. As to the cost of reinstating the PST, it would be much cheaper than accepting the balance of Harpoonies bribe. One small step for democracy one giant step for freedom! "VOTE YES"

a 2% percentage point drop in the HST..

Would bring in $1.7 billion dollars less than our old PST/GST system, Crusty`s fix doesn`t make fiscal sense, it can`t be done with raising taxes by at least a $billion dollars somewhere else,

Simple math for simple people, if the NDP proposed such idiotic not-doable fiscal numbers the front pages of every newspaper would be laughing at the con job incompetence.

In other words, hocus pocus, shazzaam, now you see it now you don`t.

Forget about what is best for who and the ideological argument, just examine the tax proposal, the Liberals lied, they changed the numbers, now they agree with the Dinning numbers, ask Dinning, ask Jack flip flop Mintz where the %1.7 billion shortfall will be made up.

Simple math for simple minds

Why the anger at wanting simplicity?

I don't want to move to another country, thank you very much. I would like to live in a province without all the whining we have in BC, is all. No one likes paying tax.

Anyone observing the debate in BC could be forgiven for thinking that we live in a bubble. It is good for Canada that the federal and provincial taxes be harmonised. If you don't support the HST, you are anti-Canadian and you don't deserve to live here.

@Fish-counter

Because the 'simplicity' ONLY BENEFITS THE CORPORATE STRUCTURE and, furthermore, the claim that the PST/GST was cumbersome and complex is absurd.

The system works fine, with point of sale and computerized sales/inventory management the complexity is only a problem for someone who's severely mentally challenged.

Now it may be that that kind of 'simplicity' is a necessary component for Campbell in a skirt to understand 'anything' but please, it's not me who is suggesting that she's only a pleasant pretty face.

Seems to me you're the one who has been making that claim - yes?

No one minds paying taxes when the taxes are fair and equitable AND when they are based upon a ability to pay and not 'simplicity' and convenience for the folks who've chosen to do business here.

It makes not a tinker's damn in hell difference to the government in either Ottawa or Victoria how the taxes are collected...If you don't see that every other province where this absurdly regressive and corporate-friendly tax is being levied would be doing the same thing British Columbians are doing if they had the legislative framework to do it then I'd suggest you don't understand the Canadian taxpayer and consumer very well.

Cheers

FIsh counter

You said "I would like to live in a province without all the whining we have in BC." So would I friend. So can you get those business buddies of yours to stop their constant whining about having to pay taxes.

HST Vote

Hmmm, now let’s see! First we had a sales tax called the “PST”, imposed by our provincial government. Then our federal government imposed a “GST”. Then the two of them (without our input!) got together and decided to “harmonize” an “HST” on us. End result? We pay more, and on EVERY good and every service obtained (tax exemptions have largely disappeared). And do you really think either government will EVER renounce this tax?

Good deal? Nah, I don’t think so! Forget about which parties are in power, in far-off places like Victoria and Ottawa; they all want lots of OUR money (which is frequently used to bribe us!). Nothin’ wrong with spending taxes on good things like healthcare or education (if done wisely), but maybe, just maybe, all sorts of money is wasted in all sorts of places too!

I think its best to say YES WE DON’T WANT HST (what a convoluted way to phrase the question!) Send all them politicos back to the drawing boards so we can pay LESS in total on everything we pay for (goods OR service!) Some jurisdictions are smarter than us, and don’t charge a sales tax at all! Maybe there is a better way we can pay for our NECESSARY services. At least give US the chance to decide our future course of action without being fed an “unbiased” line by the stick-men (also paid by us!)

Oh and by the way, do you REALLY trust ANY of them when they say they will cut the current 12% rate back a few years from now? The present regime in Victoria is generally regarded as having lied to us about bringing in “HST” (the folks in Ottawa seemed to have no objection to its introduction - strange!) Do you think it’s possible they’re lying to us (again) about reducing the rate in the future ?

Forget about which specific political parties are involved in this particular deceptive action –they ALL have equal expertise in this field. Roll back the clock to Day 1, and let’s have an INCLUSIVE discussion on how the majority of us want to raise money to provide our essential services.

If the above means nothing to you, I have a great bridge for sale!

Around and 'Round the Merry-Go-Round We Go

I hope that there are no NDP voters here. I mean, remember the carbon tax? Tieleman and the NDP opposed same.

After the election, the NDP comes on board in favour of the carbon tax. Somewhat hypocritical.

The NDP government in Nova Scotia increases their HST rate to 15%, the highest in Canada. Federal NDP leader Jack Layton goes to Nova Scotia and says "that's acceptable". Yup, that makes sense. No NDP talk about getting rid of the HST there.

That's an NDP HST rate 50% higher than what BC's 10% rate will be. Imagine that!

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2010/04/06/ns-budget.html

And then the BC motion picture/film industry, which invests $1 billion+ annually in BC and provides employment to ~30,000 folk. A very cost sensitive and mobile capital industry. They will get hit fer sure in BC if the HST is axed.

Reminds me of Vancouver's cruise ship industry, which used to have 1 million+ annual passengers - now down to ~600,000 passengers. Boats have fled to Seattle.

Even Teamsters Local 115 is tacitly now supporting the HST recognizing the potential damage to its membership in the film industry if the HST is gone.

http://www.teamsters155.org/web2009/index.php

And then BC must repay the $1.6 billion in HST transition funds to Ottawa if the HST is axed.

And then we will still have to pay the HST for another 2 years even if it is voted down.

However, based upon recent opinion polling, the HST keeps trending favourably and is relatively close between its proponents and opponents.

More importantly, the demographics that actually do/more likely are to vote also favour the HST, which means its likely survival. Time will tell.

The film industry...Nove Scotia

The NEW NDP Nova Scotia Government, when they replaced, defeated the Nova Scotia Liberal Government looked at the books, the Liberals had hid debt everywhere, $billions in hidden debt left by the Liberals...

As for the movie industry...Three years ago Ontario increased the labour and tax credits the Movie industry could claim...The movie industry people here in BC cried foul, match Ontario or we will leave British Columbia, the BC Liberals matched the Ontario credits..

And what did Pat Bell say on CKNW last week,

"One new mine in British Columbia is worth more than the entire movie industry in BC"snip

Let the movie industry go, good luck filming when it`s 20 below zero, good luck filming in a city with smog alerts..

They ain`t going anywhere, and with all those tax credits the movie theater tickets have been reduced by how much?

Exactly.

Film industry leaches...

My analogy is that we're like the slowly burning candle, we're just going to continue for a long time."

The series has spawned dvd and book sales, theme park rides and action figures.

Stargate is now MGM studio's second most prosperous franchise after James Bond.

All this content from 400 cast and crew that are overwhelmingly Canadian.

Despite the success, its producer Robert Cooper says the Canadian film and TV industry still can't survive without financial help from taxpayers.

"I don' t know if the Canadian Industry is at that point right now that it can sustain itself without that help."

Canadian studios are still attracting big American productions because of experienced crews and flexible labour unions, but the problem is the rising dollar.

Long gone are the days of the 64 cent loonie.

Currently filming in Canada saves American studios about 10 percent compared to filiming in L.A., but with the dollar predicted to hit 90 cents by the end of the year -- those saving are slowly eroding.

Peter Leitch of Lions Gate Studios they have lost their advantage of filming north of the border.

"One of the difficulties we had was the dollar, the Canadian dollar strengthened so much against the U.S. dollar so fast we lost our advantage because we didn't have time to react."

The competition is getting tougher as well. l

Last year, the BC government was forced to match an 18 percent tax break offered to producers by Ontario and Quebec.

Other provinces have now followed, as well as 45 U.S. states.

Nevertheless, Stargate producer Robert Cooper says the show will stay in Vancouver.

"We're really at that stage where the infrastructure is here so moving it would be difficult. But if the tax credit went away it would be gone."

And that's not the hollywood ending the Canadian industry wants

A link to the above story

http://www.canada.com/story_print.html?id=b7452177-7de6-4973-b891-eed3971a7e87&sponsor=

And when Ontario gives them more and more tax credits then what?

Then who cares, a welfare industry where some clown gets paid $50 million to play a part..

They ain`t going anywhere, hey, there are great tax credits in the Ukraine too, a race to the bottom, maybe we should pay them to make movies here, just like we pay IPPs BC ratepayer dollars and subsidize their sales to the Americans!

Farmers love it...

One group, and not necessarily among the rich and famous, are the farmers of BC. About 20,000 individuals, perhaps 50 to 60,000 including wives and adult children working on parent farms, are all going to vote for keeping the HST. That's a substantial number. Up to now they were getting GST refunds on farm related expenses. But when PST and GST were combined, they now get both refunded. This is a significant saving for them and they have even gone into TV ads promoting their point of view. Can't say I blame them.

Farmers

Farmers pay NO PST on fertilizers(what your selling Orchard)...No PST on vet bills(they do now)..No PST on farm equipment, balers, combines, no they never paid PST on those, not since 2001..

No PST on anything for the manufacture of foods..

Now they pay HST on vet bills, farmers now are sending way more money to Ottawa..

Nice try Orchard.....And by the way,CKNW`s Bill Good had some clown from the smart tax alliance on his show today, Tuesday/June/16th..And a farmer just happened to call in and say...No to the HST, it`s costing her money and customers..I believe this clown was on about 11:00 am....And every caller slammed his propaganda bullshit!

good day Okanagan Ochardist!

Yes, orchardist

As the lady said, "This particular tax takes the tax off business, it takes $1.8 billion off businesses and puts it on consumers, and so that shift is a shift that is ideological as well as factual." -- Former BC Liberal finance minister Carole Taylor on the HST

Maybe if it shifted taxes the other way, I could vote "no" but .. i have no choice but to vote "yes" given that I'm one of those being screwed..

I wuz gonna say

...but Bucket-list got there before me.

"And then the BC motion picture/film industry, which invests $1 billion+ annually in BC and provides employment to ~30,000 folk. A very cost sensitive and mobile capital industry. They will get hit fer sure in BC if the HST is axed."

NOT. The motion picture industry has suffered a 25% drop already in 2010 - and that was due to the skyrocketing Canadain dollar which was impossible to hedge against with its rapid swings. Obviouisly the transition to the HST midway through the year didn't help matters - no big productions suddenly came to BC saying "Oh good, taxes are 1-2% less - we'll go to BC and film now!" So if HST mattered less to the industry than the dollar, it won't hurt if we send it the other way now.

Canadian dollar has hurt so many industries in its skyward rise to petrodollar status. We now actually have to become efficient to make good on our investments here. Which means businesses have to invest in capital. We already have a highly-educated and -trained workforce ready to do the work.

The HST is just a wraith - if we did business like the US studios did, with more in-house staff instead of every single trade group contracted out, there'd be no need to worry about whether HST or PST was here - there's d be no differece.

But we've been happy being a "branch plant" economy with contract staff happy to be let go at the push of a button, so it's not surprising that the same staff jump at the slightest change in the wind, whether or not it really affects the course of the ship.

Time to stop spinning and start telling the truth - this tax is bad for consumers and good for business, and the people who are going to see the greatest benefit don't even live in this province!

Bill Tieleman - populist I indeed am!

Gee - thanks sspooner - I am indeed a populist - and proud of it.

I also like a good debate on the facts - too bad you disappeared after your drive by smearing.

Thanks to many posters here - the government is getting more and more desperate - now Christy Clark claiming Bill Vander Zalm and I wrote the referendum question - that's why it's confusing!

Fact is, as noted above, Election BC acting CEO Craig James wrote the question and Fight HST had no say in the matter - the Premier is wrong yet again.

Meanwhile, more than 100 Fight HST signs disappeared overnight Sunday in Vancouver-Fraserview from people's lawns - check media in morning for more details - clearly an organized attempt to silence people's voices.

And one that won't work.

Details

As i understand it, The HST:

1. Is more efficient to administer than two parallel tax systems.
2. Significantly limits the incentive for tax avoidance.
3. Makes small business more competitive with larger vertically integrated companies by removing the cascading effect.
4. More equitably distributes the tax burden across the economy by extending to the increasingly significant (as a proportion of the economy) service sector,and no longer punishing certain sectors (through the cascading effect).

The problem with using sales tax to effect social policy is its' inefficiency. Rather than exempting entire categories from the tax to help the few that actually deserve it, better to tax it all and target assistance to only those that actually need it.

Yes some will pay more, and some less, but it seems from what I've read that the HST is a more efficient, and fairer tax system than the PST. A relatively small change (I have not noticed any difference), but a sensible one. Objections to the HST seem not to argue the merits of the tax, but flow out of (justified) frustration with the BC Liberals, and a populist misinformation campaign.

Gordon Campbell said in 2008(part 1)

October23/2008 The Televised speech
VICTORIA — Premier Gordon Campbell unveiled a dramatic 10-point economic plan Wednesday that promised cuts to taxes, changes in government spending and even a temporary cut to ferry fares.

In a 12-minute prime-time televised speech in which he struck the most dour tone he has taken on the economy since the beginning of the current global crisis, Campbell introduced a new private-sector pension plan, promised to re-evaluate all government spending and announced he would recall the legislature next month to implement all the necessary changes.

“Today, the world’s financial system is in the grips of the worst crisis in over 75 years,” Campbell said. “World stock markets are reeling, commodity prices are plunging and the world’s financial system is under significant pressure,” he added, saying B.C. is being “impacted by events beyond our control.”

Campbell said the two-per-cent personal income tax cut that took effect on July 1 would be made retroactive to the beginning of this year.

He said a three-per-cent personal tax cut that had been planned for January will also be made retroactive to the beginning of 2008, giving British Columbians a total tax cut of five per cent for this year.

The two tax cuts were initially envisioned to offset Campbell’s carbon tax, a climate action measure that is set to rise incrementally in the coming years

Part II

Campbell did not announce any changes to the carbon tax, though he estimated the accelerated tax cuts would return an extra $144 million to the taxpayers of B.C.

The premier also said he would cut small business taxes one percentage point to 2.5 per cent effective Dec. 1, which he said would save $146 million for small businesses over three years.

He announced a voluntary pension plan for the estimated 75 per cent of private-sector workers who do not have access to a plan through their employers.

There was nothing that appeared to offer relief directly to B.C.’s struggling forest sector.

“British Columbians have every reason to be confident about their future,” Campbell said.

“We have faced tough times before and come through with flying colours. This time will be no different,” he added.
The rare prime-time address struck a much more dramatic tone than Campbell’s government has been sounding in recent weeks on the ability of the provincial economy to weather the global financial storm.

Finance Minister Colin Hansen told reporters in mid-September, the day the Wall Street firm Lehman Brothers collapsed, “We’re saying to British Columbians that while we have challenges on the economic front, we continue to have a strong economy; strong revenues that flow into government.

“We still see our forecast economic growth in British Columbia to be higher than pretty much any other jurisdiction in North America, and we expect that will continue,” Hansen said then

Part III

The B.C. government had projected it would have a cushion of more than $1.7 billion this fiscal year — comprising a surplus and a $750 million forecast allowance — that it could translate into everything from tax cuts to extra spending.

Hansen did not update those numbers Wednesday, but acknowledged the turmoil of the past month.

“The world has changed very dramatically since Sept. 12,” Hansen said.

Campbell told reporters after the speech that the plan is meant to give people money they can use to keep the economy strong.

“I think the bottom line is want to make sure we put more money into the economy,” he said.

“We’ve watched as our province has gone through difficult times before and when you put more money in people’s pockets, more money in small business, more money into the industrial sector, I think that actually stabilizes the economy and helps people make choices for themselves,” he said.

“We know tax cuts drive healthy economic activity.”

NDP leader Carole James said she was disappointed with the measures and thought much of what was announced lacked detail and fell short of what British Columbians wanted to see.

“I think tonight was more about the premier trying to repair his image than it was about repairing the challenges in the economy and addressing the challenges working families are facing,” James said.

“He missed the biggest opportunity, to address the biggest new tax that this government has brought in, which was the gas tax,” she said.

“He’s left the gas tax in place and it was a huge disappointment.”

The entire program is estimated to cost $485 million over the next three years

Part IV

On the consumer side, Mark Startup, president of Retail BC, said the personal income tax cuts were very positive because they will leave British Columbians with more money to spend.

Startup said he was also happy about changes to provincial sales tax rules.

“It sounds like a small benefit, but at this time, as retailers are buckling down for choppy seas, a $25-million benefit is well received,” he said.

Marc Lee, senior economist with the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives, was critical of the Campbell’s speech, saying the government needs to start talking about deficits, not tax cuts.

“That’s a political no-go zone ... but everybody is talking about deficits right now and they need to be pretty sizable given the storm that’s coming is huge,” Lee said.

“The premier is suggesting a modest retouching of the living room, when we have a hurricane coming that threatens to blow the house down.”

Lee said he didn’t see anything that would benefit low-income families and those most vulnerable.

“The mindset that we always have to balance the budget means that if revenues really take a sharp drop-off, then government will have to cut spending,” he said. “That’s only going to make the underlying situation worse

Part V

While Campbell’s address was meant to respond to global financial uncertainty, it is also precedes two byelections — in Vancouver-Fairview and Vancouver-Burrard — to be held next week, and a general election next May 12.

Veteran political observer Norman Ruff said before Campbell’s speech he thought Campbell had taken lessons from the U.S. and Canadian federal elections, in which voters have demanded candidates demonstrate a firm grasp of economic issues.

Ruff said Campbell can improve the economic outlook for B.C., but added that the speech’s role in the pre-election agenda cannot be understated.

“There is a civic role to play here, so it’s partly that, but one can’t forget he’s a premier facing a general election in May, not to mention the two byelections next week,” Ruff said.

“One doesn’t have to be an old hard cynic to realize this is the kickoff for the May 2009 election.”

The above highlights and lowlights was from Campbell`s televised speech in 2008, followed with some commentary from pundits....The Story was from Johnathon

How many lies in Campbell`s late 2008 speech

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=c31f5515-1bf6-4aa9-8f45-3bb7f1c59eda

The small business tax cuts are gone...Look at the contradiction, the lies about the state of the budget, look what the Liar Gordon Campbell said on TV...

"The best way to stimulate the economy is to put more money in people`s hands"...Welll Spooner, Well Luke Skywalker, well Orchard..Well what do you say now...Do you say Gordon Campbell was a liar and not to be believed or do you say Gordon Campbell flipped and flopped like a tuna out of water, what is it!

@sspooner

As I wroter earlier:
1. The 'efficiency' is illusory since virtually all the necessary record-keeping and compliance issues are already solved.
2. The costs are all transferred onto consumers from business - at the rate of almost $2billion per year;
3. Business already has extremely attractive rates of tax - on profits - if they don't make a profit thhey pay NO TAX - what little sales tax they did pay is now lost and covered by consumers;
4. Small business, especially service oriented business is LESS WELL OFF under the HST;
5. The tendency to do business under the table, for cash, is now greatly heightened, not reduced - ask any small contractor.

If you honestly believe it's

If you honestly believe it's as simple as that, then it's no wonder we have a problem of people blindly supporting the anti-HST campaign.

As with any tax policy decision their are a number of factors that must be considered. Keep the axe and elect a government that will be committed to addressing the tax shift that it creates.

Axing it is a step backwards that we don't need to take.