John Corman EDITED FOR HECTORING

I made less than $10,000 last year and paid more in HST than my rebate from the government.

Total government payouts for someone who makes less than 10G per year are a tiny portion of $1700.

Where have you been living?

The B.C. Government has promised that low income families (under $25,000) and individuals (under $20,000) will receive $230 credit.
This information is from the Govt of BC website - you can confirm it here:

http://www.hstinbc.ca/buying_goods/rebates_and_exemptions/

EDITED FOR INSULT, BAITING -- TYEE MODERATOR

Corman/Gorman, if the shoe fits...

I too would accept an apple oagey fromEDITED FOR INSULTS -- MODERATOR It's not even June, and I too have already paid far more HST than I've received, or will receive in rebates, and I earned only slightly over $9,000 in 2010. Corman may have been living in BC, but clearly he's not on the same plain as us marginalized working persons.

Editorial Itchy Fingers.

Jeebles, folks, if you're going to edit out a mild mannered kindergarten level insult like the mild word "buffoon", fine, be childish. But at least just edit out the insult and not the relevant name that points out to whom the comment is addressed to.

You have rendered my comment somewhat context-free, as you did zalm's (responding to me) in the Burka Buddies (™ Jerry Munro) thread.

I feel so left out....

No one is calling ME to participate in the HST town halls.

The DEBATE might be about this:

But IMHO, in the citizens' collective mind, what does it matter what a tax is called? What IS floating through the voters' collective mind is that the damn thing is too high. Period!

Who is the HST benefitting?

I think that the fact that they just amping up the sales tax says a lot about our current system.. it's the consumers that pay the people who own stuff so they can get more money. And MAYBE the people who own stuff will invest in industry. But probably not, since their motive is personal profit or for their company. If the benefit of society and the profit of a specific company coincides, yay! But usually that doesn't happen... companies exist independent of each other and compete, not really seeing the needs of the people as their main motive.

I think we shouldn't leave it up to them to decide. A better idea would be that we tax people of higher income more with income tax (which is hard to define, in truth). Plus industry. But then that is taking into assumption we have a government who will care for us.. but they might just give it back to companies who will put it in their own bank accounts and buy a yacht or something.

I also would like to see what they are doing exactly with this money. That's not really clear to me.

yes, who cares what the tax is called?

RickW, the citizens have always hated the GST, the PST, and now the HST...and yes, the question of going back to the PST is disingenuous(at best, she chortles) but this government likes to appear to be following the letter of the law, while violating its very spirit. The citizens demanded a referendum on the question of the HST, and an honest government might have included in that referendum (since we are having it anyway and extra questions don't cost any extra)how the electorate would prefer to see tax revenues raised. Of course, corporations cannot vote (wait for it, though!) so we might have seen a true picture of what people want.(For example, I am willing to bet that salary and benefits for MLAs would be sharply reduced, if the people had any say...)

This government yearns for us to believe it is wise and benevolent, but it just won't wash. Too many echoes of used car sales people and real estate agents...the pitch can be heard before they even open their mouths. And what is worse, even the web site purporting to be neutral doen't give all the facts. Only junk food (chips and pop)is taxed? Not true. And we have seen what happens when restaurants have to collect taxes for government...

Oh well, let's let the soothing, dulcet tones of Christy Clark wash over the electorate for a while and see if they buy it, or if it feels like glycerin suppositories to them.

GWest - Pay Attention. Please

If you had actually read my post to VivianLea Doubt you would had read:
"If you're a single person and only earned $10k in 2010 (assumed to be employment income) your combined rebates add up to about $1,700."
If you had some idea of what you were talking about or, even paid attention, then you'd know that this individuals combined rebates are as follows:
Working Income Tax Benefit %1,102.50
Federal HST refund of $288.84
BC Carbon tax refund of $105.00
BC HST rebate of $230.00
Now take a look again. I said "combined rebates add up to about $1,700.00".
True or not true?

Hands up all those people who like taxes?

Right, then. Vivian Leigh has it right. The name of the tax is irrelevant. On balance, I think the HST makes more sense than the convoluted PST+GST did.

They should just charge the HST on all consumer goods, regardless of whether the item is children's clothing or safety equipment. No one is immune from taxes, and we all have to pay them. HST is simpler than the other, so it gets my vote, with reluctance. Also, it would cost more money to revert.

My only regret is that we don't have Gordon Campbell to kick around any more. Kicking a tax around isn't as much fun, because it is too easy. Boot to the Head!

Hands up all those people who like taxes?

Right, then. Vivian Leigh has it right. The name of the tax is irrelevant. On balance, I think the HST makes more sense than the convoluted PST+GST did.

They should just charge the HST on all consumer goods, regardless of whether the item is children's clothing or safety equipment. No one is immune from taxes, and we all have to pay them. HST is simpler than the other, so it gets my vote, with reluctance. Also, it would cost more money to revert.

My only regret is that we don't have Gordon Campbell to kick around any more. Kicking a tax around isn't as much fun, because it is too easy. Boot to the Head!

Gordo is gone,

but we could kick Christy around. She's just Gordo in lipstick and heels anyway.....

Fish-counter - You're becoming cerebral

Of course it makes sense to have a value added tax like the HST. The former PST was a nightmare and, I could be shown to be wrong here, but, I don't believe that a tax like that has been installed in any developed country in the last fifty years. All the European countries have an HST. I think that Sweden's rate is in the twenty five percent range but lowered to about twelve percent for food. We might be able to eliminate income taxes with rates like that.

HST is an alternative type

HST is an alternative type of income tax, since it is charged on the difference between what a product sells for and the cost of purchased inputs (excluding labour). It is NOT a substitute for income tax, since it is not progressive (the rebates don't change things much.) It has the advantage of streamlining collections (compared with PST and HST with their separate rules on exemptions). Because harmonised HST had fewer consumer exemptions than PST, consumers are hit with more tax (much more, it turns out, than the reduction in amounts paid by business). But reversing that by going back to PST won't work: for starters, it is highly unlikely that PST will again be charged on business inputs. Whatever the case, trying to go back will involve a lot of time unscrambling the omelet in this dog's breakfast.

The tax was introduced in a typical duplicitous fashion expected of the Liberals-- but reversing the tax won't deal with that.

The REAL issues that need urgent attention are,
First, to raise more government revenues to handle costs of necessary services, and
Second, to REVERSE the rapid decrease in the progressivity of the budget through due to reductions in income tax rates (especially at higher incomes), corporate income taxes (and capital taxes) and cuts to essential social services.

The conservatives who have spearheaded the anti-HST fight have scrupulously deflected attention from the more fundamental issue.

To be clear: a defeat of the HST and reinstatement of PST as a result of the referendum would be just siphon off energies which should be spent on the fundamental issues.

Let's hope the NDP opposition doesn't get misled (as it was on the carbon tax).

alittleyellowfish

Here's a little reading that backs up your thought:
http://robwipond.com/?p=501

John Corman

The proof is not in the list of rebates. Rather, it is in the actual money received in hand, relative to the outlay for the HST. Sounds like there is a significant discrepancy between your numbers and the cash in hand received by many of the posters in this here thread.

John Corman - pay attention, please

The other tax credits you're talking about have nothing to do with the HST - they were in effect BEFORE the HST came into being.

Consequently, as VivianLea and I pointed out, they are in no related to what she has SPENT on the HST and do not in any way make her life any less difficult.

NO CONSUMPTION TAX IS EVER GOING TO BE FAIR TO LOW INCOME WORKERS BECAUSE SUCH TAXES HAVE NO RELATIONSHIP TO ABILITY TO PAY ---- consumption taxes are regressive, they are unfair and they hurt people with lower incomes.

All taxes should be progressive so that they work towards creating equity and equality of opportunity.

The only people who like the HST are the business people who have had about $2 billion of taxes shifted from themselves onto consumers each year.

John Greg

I was worried it was just me being marked for deletion - thank you for reassuring me it's not just me.

By the way, in the comment you speak of, I was merely pointing out to fish-counter that he had had his head handed to him on a silver platter by you...

John Coreman

So we in BC are stupid. I think that's what you mean. HST is good because it's simpler to use? Never mind that the MAJORITY of the tax collected goes to corporations that put it in their pocket. That's good for us? Or because it's simpler to figure out? Are we that stupid in BC that we couldn't have figured out a easier way to collect the tax? And by the way, the PST went to run the government not the corporations.

Tell me, where are all the jobs it's supposed to create? Do you see prices dropping as suggested at the begining of the HST fiasco? Do you see government services being improved, do you see new hospitals opening that aren't P3's? The list could go on and frankly there are few if any benefits from the HST.

I'm sure anyone making less than $10,000 is happy for the rebates but I believe they'd rather have a well paying job, not handouts!

G West

Amazing how many "right-of-centre" folks advocate consumption taxes as being the only "fair" way to tax.

frank2

Keep in mind the current HST is more of a tax shift than a revenue generator. People might like to say the HST pays for health and education but what it mostly pays for is tax reductions for business.

The HST is a bad tax because its a regressive tax. Is taxing the rich at only 12% what we want? Taxing the poor at 12% is what we want? No tax on corporations is what we want?

If the desire is to replace income taxes with consumption taxes then it means we are going to hit a revenue wall. There simply will not be enough money collected to pay the for health and education.

So how do we generate more revenue from consumption taxes? Will the rate eventually rise to perhaps 35% so we can get rid of income and corporate taxes altogether?

I hope you realize that in the end consumption taxes mean higher taxes for lower income people and lower taxes for high income people. No amount of discussion can change that basic fact. Its what happens when we all pay the same rate.

If were a roughly equal society then that would be fine, but we're not. Our society has very poor and very rich and a shrinking middle class.

If we want to stop taxing income then instead of a consumption tax how about a wealth tax? That way the 3.8% that control 66.6% of Canada's wealth would be taxed much more heavily and the bottom 20% would not be taxed at all.

Frank Said:

"If we want to stop taxing income then instead of a consumption tax how about a wealth tax? That way the 3.8% that control 66.6% of Canada's wealth would be taxed much more heavily and the bottom 20% would not be taxed at all."

Yes but that would be morally just, ethically fair, and would allow poor people to at least try to pick themselves up off the dusty floor.

And you know, the rich, and the vainglorious right, just will not, can not accept such eglitarian thoughts or actions.

I mean, give the poor a break? You blasphemer you!

Low Consumption Taxes

We can be sure that the posters that don't like consumption taxes like the HST voted for Stephen Harper and the Conservatives, since it was they that lowered the GST. Twice.

If they say no, then we can be sure that this argument has very little to do with logic.

NDP's HST Spin in Full Twirl

I’ve stopped listening to politicians for a long time. As a kid, I used to be very excited over them. However, as I grew older, I've become more skeptical, so when Adrian Dix says that "the government's claim of neutrality on the HST is ludicrous", well, I tune out.
it's like one politician calling the other ambitious, when you know right well they are both vying for the same job.
I chose to do my research of the issues, trusting my ability to think for myself. In order not to see my blood pressure rise, I believe nothing of what I hear, and only half of what I see.

realisticman

So you voted Liberal back in 1993 because they promised to scrap the GST?

Frank

R/man was too young to vote then......

Frank

So you did vote Conservative.

The only other people that like the old two tax system of PST + GST, instead of the simple single HST, are accountants because it just means more work for them.

realisticman

The NDP was against the GST too, maybe you voted for Ed Broadbent back then?

The Conservatives are the party that created the GST. Whether its at 5%, 7% or 25%, its their baby. Voting for a party on the basis of them lowering the tax they created is both illogical and sad.

There's nothing wrong with value added taxes

Especially when they're tied to luxury goods which are only purchased by people more concerned with image and style than real value.

Bring on all the luxury taxes you like on cars above, for example, $25 G...in fact, the Campbell Clark Liberals don't LIKE those kinds of taxes at all - which puts the lie to the argument they make in favour of the HST.

As for federal conman arguments about tax - who knows what they actually believe - the finance ministry is headed by the guy who ruined the Ontario economy under Mike Harris - why would anyone listen.

BTW, I understand Flaherty is a Princeton graduate - don't conservatives find THAT a problem?

Smacks of foreign influence and elitism

Don'tcha know?

No wonder people don't understand this tax!

...and believe me they don't. I've spoken with business people that do not understand the tax. Sharing, above seems to think that used cars were P{ST exempt. They were not, except for private sellers.

We read this:

"NO CONSUMPTION TAX IS EVER GOING TO BE FAIR TO LOW INCOME WORKERS BECAUSE SUCH TAXES HAVE NO RELATIONSHIP TO ABILITY TO PAY ---- consumption taxes are regressive, they are unfair and they hurt people with lower incomes."

The same commenter then follows up with this:

"There's nothing wrong with value added taxes"

The HST is a value added tax, also known as a consumption tax.

These expert posters are contradicting themselves within a few hours.

This whole thing has nothing to do with reason or practicality, only emotion.

If you like the Liberals you'll accept the tax.

If you hate Gordon Campbell you hate the HST.

NOTE: The Nova Scotia NDP recently raised their HST to 15%.

realisticman

"This whole thing has nothing to do with reason or practicality, only emotion."

Well, that explains your support of it. On this side emotion doesn't enter into it.

If one supports taxing the wealthy, the middle and the poor at the same rate you'll get more poor, more wealthy and less middle.

John Greg

It is blasphemy isn't it?

I'm willing to bet there's be a lot more support for taxing wealth than there is for the HST or other consumption taxes.

Frank

You'll vote for the wrong decision and your low-income people will get hurt but you'll be happy because you gave the Liberals a slap in the face.

You'll encourage people to scrap the HST, even though there is no possibility that reverting to the GST/PST could ever be as efficient.

One thing to remember is that the wealthy could not care either way. Do you really think that the rich care if they pay 7% in a restaurant meal or not?

Scrapping the HST will only hurt the less well off. They might get their snack foods a bit cheaper but there will not be more money for many other things and businesses will hire less people or move out of the province completely. All small businesses will be worse off.

Realisticman

"Sharing, above seems to think that used cars were P{ST exempt. They were not, except for private sellers."

Nice try, Realisticman. If I trusted you more, I'd show you the vehicle transfer papers: it was a private sale. One doesn't need to buy from a lot when one shops around.

realisticman

And you'll vote for the wrong decision because it reduces taxes on high incomes and the wealthy. But you don't care as long as it supports the Liberals.

Kinda like your cheerleading the other day for Christy when almost every media outlet said her victory in Point Grey was way closer than anyone expected and demonstrated she has very little political capital to spend.

Scrapping the HST will help the poor and middle income people. If you really wanted to help them you'd oppose all consumption taxes and instead support progressive taxation on incomes and a wealth tax. In fact, if you really wanted to help them you wouldn't have supported Campbell for the last decade.

R/man

Thanks once again for pulling out only 'some' of the quote - the part that suits YOUR purposes...In fact, this is what I wrote:

There's nothing wrong with value added taxes ... Especially when they're tied to luxury goods which are only purchased by people more concerned with image and style than real value. Bring on all the luxury taxes you like on cars above, for example, $25 G...in fact, the Campbell Clark Liberals don't LIKE those kinds of taxes at all - which puts the lie to the argument they make in favour of the HST.

Thanks for giving me the opportunity to repost the whole of what I wrote, with emphasis.

Furthermore

The actual evidence - here in BC - is that there are 'fewer' jobs being created, less wealth being transferred to those who need it, and more revenue going to government since tha HST was instituted.

In fact, the HST has been an abyssmal failure in every area that matters - except on the bottom lines of the companies who got the $2 billion windfall.

There is no evidence that any of that will ever trickle down to 'real' people with real jobs and real needs.

As for the purchasers of luxury vehicles - they're better off now than ever:

There was an additional 3% PST tax on new vehicles costing over $55k. Total tax was PST + GST + 3% = 15%.

This was the luxury car tax. With the introduction of the HST on July 1, the luxury tax has been eliminated. Total tax payable on any new vehicle regardless of price will be 12%.

In this province the rich always win - socialism is the rule for the top five percenters - the rest of us get to fend for ourselves.

So you see, the problem with consumption taxes

The problem with consumption taxes is their lack of any relationship between the tax charged and the ability to pay.

I have no problem whatsoever with VAT on items which one can classify as luxuries:
Expensive gas guzzling cars; holidays at luxury resorts; jewellery; Rolex watches; houses which sell for more than the median price in individual markets; houses and properties bought as an investment and not as a place to live; summer cottages; boats and motors (over a certain size and power) for pleasure purposes; international air travel; recreational vehicles and 'generally' anything that's not likely to be on the shopping lists of ordinary people struggling to get by on a day to day basis including fashion clothing; art objects amd the like.

On that kind of luxury goods - apply the HST until the cows come home.

Alternatively, and much more simply, we should return to a carefully planned progressive system of income tax - treating every dollar, no matter how earned - as a dollar which can be taxed.

Capital gains, interest income, rent, gambling, whatever - if you make a dollar you should be subject to tax upon that dollar - no longer should the earnings of working people attract more tax than investment income does.

Bring back the report of the Carter Commission on Taxation and put its recommendations into effect - this country would again be a decent and equitable place for all Canadians - not just a haven for the rich and privileged.

G West

G West"
"...we should return to a carefully planned progressive system of income tax - treating every dollar, no matter how earned - as a dollar which can be taxed."

Sounds like a winner to me! Further, we should have money transfers and bank accounts monitored for matching with income tax statements. Like, how can a person take ownership of a $75,000 car or a $750,000 home when they declare income of nothing, or next to nothing? If everything a person does is on the up-and-up, their income should be tied to doing business, investments or to a paycheck. With today's computers, it should be quite easy to catch fraudsters, money launderers and black market booty. It should also be quite easy to put away people who bring bags of cash to government officials to buy, say part of the 3rd largest rail comppany in all of Canada! It should also be easy to lock up government officials who illegally delete and destroy correspondence with respect to their illegaling giving away BC Rail against the wishes of the citizens.

SharingIsGood ...

Yes, all you say should be a given. However, both our federal and provincial governments would rather spend millions of dollars chasing down the small handful of so-called welfare cheats, because they're the real social evil ... didn't ya know?

After, white collar criminals , money launderers, and other fiscal fraudsters are their (the govt's) friends.

Ahem

Should be "After all, white collar criminals...."

well, I like your version of the HST, G West...

Of course, under your version I would not be paying it.

I find it interesting that there is no acknowledgement from certain posters that the HST is, indeed, hurting low income people. However, the Liberal government is inviting citizens to take a survey on changes to the HST, so in spite of what we are hearing here, there are obvious signs that all is not well in La-la land. Could there be any clearer signal that tinkering with the tax is seen as good political strategy?
Everyone understands that consumption taxes hurt the poor, which is why the rebates were designed into both the GST and the HST. The only logical question is why we would opt for this expensive and only partially compensatory system of taxation when we have a system of income tax already in place. Furthermore, we have heard ad infinitum that reducing taxes on business will create jobs, but there is absolutely no evidence of this, nor have unemployment rates been reduced during these glorious decades of rightist-think. There is a great deal of evidence, however, that pursuing full-employment strategies do have an effect.

But lets not let the evidence of happier, healthier societies - both in other countries and in Canada's past - sway us in implementing our political agendas.

VivianLea

Please tell us about the evidence of happier, healthier societies and their VAT or lack of it, that you speak of.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_added_tax

I see this thread continues.

I see this thread continues. A couple more comments.

A "value-added" tax IS an income tax (income defined as the difference between sales price and purchased inputs, which have paid the tax, that is, excluding labour, rent, interest, profit, etc).

Since it is paid by consumers (exports are exempt), it is also paid in proportion to consumption expenditures. To the extent that those with the highest incomes spend a smaller proportion of income on items subject to HST, the tax IS regressive. Hence the need to increase rates in higher brackets of regular income tax.

Remember, however, that TOTAL reliance on income tax would raise enforcement problems. Trick is to find the right mix of taxes which (a) generates necessary revenues, (b) ensures progressivity and (c) minimises cheating/evasion.

fools

It is cretinous for anyone who is part of the bottom 95% of income earners in the BC economy to think that the BC Liberals put his or her needs on par with the wealthy. Anyone who seriously believes that the HST is helping (and will help) those earning less than a healthy six figure salary has been duped. As GWest, Frank, VivianLea, myself and others have clearly shown, the HST is a regressive tax.

Never have the Federal Conservatives nor BC Liberals shown the people of BC that they put the needs of average folks over the needs of international corporations. International corporations lobbied for the reduced corporate tax rate they got with the implementation of the HST. Jobs (especially well-paying manufacturing jobs) have not increased with the implementation of HST, though BC's wealthiest people have shown increased net income.

Uber-wealthy people can write off much of what they purchase as corporate business expense/investments - HST free. This includes yachts for entertaining clients and corporate jet time-shares for trips to China, SE Asia and Latin America in their quests for cheap foreign labour. HST write-offs even include the toilet paper used and meals served on the yachts and jets. Vacation condos are corporate investments used for "retreats". The list of tax deductible extravagances at wealthy people's disposal (that common people will only glimpse upon if they are there to provide a menial service) goes on and on. Tax deductible political donations, accountants and lawyers help them get laws written in their favour and further help set up appropriate accounts for optimizing their loopholes.

Vat in other contexts

Value added taxes in other jurisdictions are used in combination with highly progressive income taxes and much higher marginal rates of tax than we have here in Canada.

Most of these jurisdictions also have a far more robust social safety net and a broader range of publicly-financed services available - all of which create a society characterized by greater equity and more equality of opportunity.

In British Columbia and Canada the only thing which is important to the current governments' philosophy is reducing the amount of income tax paid by the "upper" echelons of society - the five percenters whom Campbell/Clark and Harper/Ignatieff really (and only) care about.

There are far more enforcement and collection problems associated with the HST because it husbands and stimulates the creation and growth of a black or underground economy.

If we taxed all forms of income, however earned, there would be far less black market AND, since all dollars would be subject to tax the tax structure would be broader and flatter.

HST or PST? Neither. How about the rich pay?

I want the rich and corporate to pay lots. Voting down the HST shouldn't mean we can't vote down the PST, too. If the govvie wants more money, then it can go get it from the people who have too much of it. The rich don't do good things with their money, anyway. They invest in oil, munitions, "Offshore" sweatshops and sweatships. It's a class war out there. Fight backd by not shopping at WalMart or other purveyors of slavery abroad. Shop locally. Organically. too (no Monsanto). Check labels carefully for where products are made. You really have to look hard. Sometimes you have to phone them or check on line or ask the store to find out for sure. E.g. main brands of Toothpaste is being made in Mexico. Pickles in India. Smoked oysters in Thailand. Yuk!

This meal's too rich for me

"Do you really think that the rich care if they pay 7% in a restaurant meal or not?"

Apparently they do. Lumiere's gone broke and shut its doors, along with another dozen restaurants up and down Broadway in my neighbourhood.

"Scrapping the HST will only hurt the less well off. They might get their snack foods a bit cheaper but there will not be more money for many other things and businesses will hire less people or move out of the province completely."

You mean like Howe Sound Pulp & Paper moving out of the province - to China? As we speak? The last of the heavy equipment left in November 2010. Doesn't look like HST could save those jobs, even in the best pulp market in a dozen years.

No, big business, as unethical as it is, will not spend a dime of its HST rebates unless it sees it can make a buck. And things are not good in this province - limited education and training spots for people who want it, skinny funding, few tradesmen, few doctors, perpetual fights with teachers who simply want to teach instead of babysit, too many real estate salespeople and used car dealers, but nothing of real value produced any more. so there's no reason for big business to try to creat jobs here. There's no infrastructure - unless you count a highway to serve new subdivisions in Squamish "infrastructure"

The only big business I've seen that might be able to make a go of it is MacKenzie Pulp - that might remain competitive under the HST. Interesting that it's employee-owned.

I'm just as happy under the current regime if poor people can get their snack foods - and healthier ones too - a little cheaper. Especially if they can pick your pocket doing it.

On a different note

The complete bankruptcy of ideas in this debate extends to the "replacement" of HST with the old regime. Is that all that this ignorant government of car dealers and developers can come up with? Do they not have one single idea of a new way to raise money?

How would they like to try charging for water withdrawals for fracking? Or reducing the roadbuilding spending for the gas industry to something more reasonable from last years' $900 million? Why not tax flared gas for the waste that it is? Or tax packaging? Or single-occupant vehicles over 1.2 litres? Or adjusting the exemption on primary residences, which is the single biggest contributor to our runaway housing market that impoverishes so many people through debt penury and elimination of rental housing?

Is this government so bankrupt of ideas that they cannot figure out any other adjustments to make other than returning to the PST, like a dog to its vomit?

God, how it pains me to know that Alberta, for all the wrong reasons, is at least marginally committed to treating its poor better than we are here in BC.

excellent points about VAT/HST here...

And therefore, I will confine my remarks to 'happier, healthier' societies, on which we have a wealth of information, and an idea of how they got there.
Realisticman, while I don't discount Wikipedia as a source, for the scholarly inclined it is only a beginning: much like an encyclopedia entry, it should serve as the starting point for further research. I have played the game of citations for too long to get interested in the game of 'here I will supply a link that proves my point'. The curious and intelligent will seek out views from every point of the spectrum.

We do have a lot of information on what constitutes happier, healthier, longer-lived and less crime-filled societies, and that information gathered through thousands of studies and reports, shows that the spread of inequality - the size of the gap between the richest and the poorest people in a given society - is what is important. The smaller the gap, the happier, healthier, longer-lived and less subject to crime the citizens are, and the larger the gap, the more the indicators reverse - life expectancy goes down, health is poorer, people report more stress and discontent, and crime rates sky rocket. If you would like an overview of this research, read Wilkinson and co-author in "The Spirit Level".

What Wilkinson has done is to gather a large amount of data and present it in one place, and you can certainly follow his research trail and ought to. For the evidence is unmistakable and overwhelming that EVERYBODY in a society suffers when the income-inequality gradient is too steep, and that EVERYBODY gains when the income-inequality gradient is flatter. I am always amused when barely-literate politicians think to impose a political agenda on people, ignoring the decades of research and information gathering, and the scholarly concensus to boot, in order to enrich their friends, or to improve the fortunes of a select few. It is not rocket science, frankly, what constitutes governing 'for the people', although it may require letting go of ideologies and prejudices, as well as the courage to know when something is not working.

There are several hundred thousand people earning minimum wage in BC, another several hundred thousand collecting income assistance, another several hundred thousand collecting EI because out of a job, and add to that those who are employed part-time not out of preference, and those who are underemployed...and you begin to see that the majority of British Columbians are really struggling. The very definition of democracy requires that you attempt to govern on behalf of this majority. We continue to subsidize big business, while the majority of citizens in the province are empoyed by small business - why? We continue to penalize,humiliate, and further degrade the income of the poorest people - why? We continue to insist that that we can BS the people with smooth and creamy voices - why?

Good Points VLD

I think the rich aspire to the belief that if the gap between them and the rest of us becomes wide enough, we will simply just disappear.

realisticman

Realisticman:

Though less eloquently than VivianLea, I am among the many who have attempted to illuminate you and other commentors (NoLeftNutter, NeoCon, Murdock, etc.) at the Tyee who argue for Ayn Rand's objectivism (economic Darwinism).

I hope that VivianLea is successful where we have failed. Truly read and research her words to find error in their beauty. No matter how hard you look, you cannot logically find her words false.

Perhaps you will remember my saying something like: "Disparity leads to desperation, and desperate people commit desperate acts [in an attempt to live at a level which is in par with others]." Adding a greater tax burden to the already over-burdened creates desperate, and less healthy people - poverty. Don't let your mind be closed because VivianLean's words don't agree with your worldview. Your worldview has been flawed ever since my first discovering you here at the Tyee (when was it - 2005, 2006?). Many of us at the Tyee have attempted to educate you with logic and reason about the notion that sharing is a good thing, and that hoarding is a bad thing.

Avarice is one of the seven deadly sins. One need not be religious to agree that, to live peacefully with the respect of others, the seven deadly sins are a great starting point of actions to avoid. These 7 sins and their counter create the foundation for defining reasonable human behaviour, ethics, civil law and crimminal law the world over.

No matter how many times Ronald Reagan and Kevin O'Leary have told you that greed is good, you must understand: THEY ARE WRONG! I wish you all the best, Realisticman. I wish you a peaceful life of kindness and sharing and charity.

Prose

I still do not see any single reference to anywhere that has a happier, healthier society and no VAT. Of course, Alberta has no PST but they do pump a little oil, which some BCers wouldn't want BC to do.

As to inequality, the only international measurement I'm familiar with is the now 100 year established and accepted, Gini Index. Canada rates very favourably in the index, along with Australia, France, Spain, the U.K., Italy, Greece, etc. Norway does do a bit better but then again, they pump lots of oil too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient

Going back to a PST/GST system ain't gonna help anyone.

Gini reflects historical records

Canada has been a fairly decent and generally equitable society...it is trending very strongly AWAY from that tradition, as a variety of academics have been noticing:

http://www.publicaffairs.ubc.ca/2010/11/04/growing-inequality-prof-sees-warning-signs-in-canada/

here's another report

http://www.policyalternatives.ca/publications/reports/rise-canadas-richest-1

Anyone who things that shifting tax revenues from income to consumption taxes is going to 'improve' the worsening inequality in this country is smoking some strange weed.

And it affects all aspects of human life - including health outcomes:
http://www.povertyandhumanrights.org/docs/incomeHealth.pdf

If you want more, there is lots more available....

Here's a report from the Conference Board:
http://www.conferenceboard.ca/hcp/details/society/income-inequality.aspx

kind words...

Thanks for your kind words, SIG.

As to measurements of inequality, well there are literally dozens of different measures out there, which a simple google search will net you realisticman. And by the way, Wilkinsons' data on inequality all came from international bodies such as the United Nations, not to mention peer-reviewed studies. Come on - we've shown you how to basic research!

correction...

Anyone who thinks that shifting tax collection programs from income to consumption is going to 'improve' the worsening inequality in this country is smoking some VERY strange weed.