PAB Trolls (snert and Cyrille)

What really irks me is that our taxes are paying for EDITED FOR PERSONAL INSULTS AND ACCUSATIONS WITHOUT PROOF -- MODERATOR to confound & confuse the real workers in BC. These types of people grow up to be the Kevin Falcons & Christie Clarks of this world: quick with a sneer & a putdown. After a few years of this rotten behavior they get promoted up the ranks of the BC Liberals. No wonder BC is in such a mess.
For heaven's sake, don't waste time arguing with them - that's what they want.

Nor would I believe EDITED FOR INSULTS -- MODERATOR

O yes the inflation smokescreen hides it all. The experts you talk about are all the liberal supporters in business who came out of the woodwork to help their buddies. I should believe them? Their line is the same as what the government tried to feed us. You know that those goods exempt from GST at the production would be reduced in price. When we all cried BS, then they came up with, "Well it was inflation".

It is people like you who assume that none of us opposed to HST are capable of telling crap from shinola that really offend.

When the deceitful liberals use $5 million of tax dollars toi try to convince me that something they lied about is good for me, then I think they are selling me swampland. I think I'll stay with Bill instead of you or those you claim are "experts". Some experts.

David

It is as I expected. You may insult Bill Tielemann or the writer of any article in the TYee but you dare not use the very same term to describe a poster like middleclass. Bill has thicker skin, I guess.

Why only this one??

Why stop with the HST?

How about cutting income taxes, business taxes and property taxes too? And preventing the reimposition of the PST?

But then you'd surely have to cut "services to people" too...and likely lay off a few rather richly-padded deputy ministers and unionized government employees too, wouldn't you? Or cut salary, pension & benefit costs drastically across the board...

All governments are running deficits these days. What about comprehensively tackling all spending and all taxing rather than just whine about this one tax?

The hypocrisy being spouted is deafening.

Why this one?

Because we were lied to about this ONE and because it costs us more and because we don't trust the clowns to spend the taxes on anything but what is important to them. Ten years of tax cuts to business and banks tells the story. If you can't send them a message on this one, they will do it to you again and again and again. That's why!

Thank you Skywalker

As we clearly see, it's all emotion - zero logic.

G West

"Please, what is the 'merit' of the HST?"

Well, I gave you my take on that in my following sentence. I think you just didn't like the answer. ;-)

But truly, speaking as an interested citizen and not a member of any party, I believe that in the long run we'll be better off with the HST and not PST.

You cite the growing inequality in the province. What are the jurisdictions in the world that that you feel do a good job at both equality and prosperity? I'll bet you a loonie we're now talking about a short list of countries with progressive income taxes, yes, but also a high consumption tax, much higher than ours.

Of course, if we return to the PST, but find that international delegations start arriving in BC to study the brilliance of our provincial sales tax and its impact on our success, I'll have to eat my words. But I doubt it'll happen. In fact, I doubt anyone commenting so far even likes it.

So you want to vote against the HST. Fine, but what do you want to vote for? If it's the PST, just say so. But I doubt it is what you want. My point is that the PST never was a great tax, and that just for a moment, it might be useful for people to put aside hardened positions and a visceral dislike of the current government and consider whether you really want the crappy old PST.

I'm a pensioner...

When I built most of my new home back in '76 by myself, it cost me around $50K for materials and other labour. My house now needs a new roof. Most of the half-dozen quotes I have had are around the $30K mark, about 50/50 for materials and labour. What to do? I'm too old to do it myself. I'm seriously looking for someone willing to take cash for the labour.

I think more and more people will be doing business under the table if Clark doesn't make some substantial changes soon.

Yes R/man and gerard

I have learned from you R/man. The facts are clear. You can have what we had before or you can be gouged more with a crappier HST that shifts the burden from business to consumers. If that is only because of a visceral dislike of the government you are missing the point entirely. Some of us don't like being screwed, doesn't matter which government does it gerard. The end does not justify the means. The end isn't even palatable..

HST is a federal tax

The province handed over a portion of its taxation authority, losing control and flexibility, primarily for $1.6 billion (see The Globe and Mail, BC ed., June 28, 2010, interview with Gordon Campbell).

A consumption tax could have been provincial, and still could be.

Former finance minister Carole Taylor suggested after the introduction of the HST that the PST could have been modified.

Frank

Then by your own admission the BC Liberal version of the HST at 12% (hopefully to be lowered), is a heck of a lot better than the NS NDP version of the HST at 15%. (They increased the rate by 2%).

Jack Layton even went to NS and stated that their 15% HST is "acceptable" because it's not charged on home heating.

Well, BC's 12% HST rate must be more than acceptable because it's not only 3% lower than that in NS but it's also not charged on home heating in BC.

The NDP's 15% HST rate or the Lib's 12% HST rate. Your choice.

That's not an argument gerard

It's a political speech...now, why should anyone - especially a member of the working and middle class (people who don't make a living clipping coupons, collecting capital gains or playing the stock market) support a consumption tax?

I've often written here that I believe you will ALWAYS have growing inequality when you don't tax progressively. There are dozens of examples of countries who use the tax system more fairly than we do.

In fact, Canada itself had a Royal Commission in the 1960s which found that the correct approach was to treat all income equally with respect to taxation.

It should have become the law - had it done so we would have a fairer and more equitable society today.

Instead, we play silly games with unfair taxes that special interests falsely claim are 'efficient'.

See if you can find a copy of the Carter Royal Commission on Taxation.

It'll open your eyes. It was opposition from the banks, the oil industry and commercial interests.

Why do you think business 'likes' the HST SO MUCH?

Here you go gerard

Here's a link to an archived copy of the Commission's Report...
http://epe.lac-bac.gc.ca/100/200/301/pco-bcp/commissions-ef/carter1966-eng/carter1966-eng.htm

Enjoyed the discussion - now go vote 'YES' and get rid of the HST.

Businesses and corporations should at least pay 'some' sales tax....

Macb423

This isn't about waiting for the "perfect world", its about right now. Income and corporate taxes are being reduced. Fight that battle if you aren’t happy with that outcome. I don’t see any reason to give up and accept a bad tax because it could be worse.

You either support higher corporate and income taxes or you don’t. You’ve chosen to support them, I don’t.

“and the poorest British Columbians will suffer while we have our fascinating arguments about regressive v. progressive tax policy”

Why would you care? You’ve already voiced your support for the government bringing in the HST and reducing corporate and income taxes. If you were worried about the poorest British Columbians you’d oppose that policy instead of defending it.

Kreditanstalt

Because other taxes come back to us in the form of services. This one doesn't. The money is spent reducing corporate and income taxes.

You may be happy paying increased taxes so that corporations and people wealthier than you can pay less but some of us are able to do the math.

gerard

"I'll bet you a loonie we're now talking about a short list of countries with progressive income taxes, yes, but also a high consumption tax, much higher than ours."

I'll bet you two loonies we're talking about countries that have less disparity between rich and poor.

Luke

As usual you hope no one knows what's going on anywhere else.

The NDP in Nova Scotia has raised the HST, you support that, I don't. Unlike in BC however, they are doing it to raise revenue for the province in order to avoid spending cuts, not to give big income tax reductions to the wealthy.

In fact, they have also increased income taxes for people making over $150,000 a year. No doubt you're against that, I support it. The new rate will be 21%, up from 17.5%.

And what of the Nova Scotia Liberals? They support spending cuts instead. No doubt believing the elderly and the sick and the poor should be able to manage with less.

Interestingly the Liberals in Nova Scotia call the HST as a "tax grab" and that the tax will hurt their economy. I guess a Liberal Nova Scotia economy runs on different principles than a Liberal BC economy eh?

So which are you? A BC Liberal or a Nova Scotia Liberal?

G West

One thing that I hate worse than taxes is someone who spends them or advocates spending them foolishly and you, sir, fall into the latter category.

There is absolutely nothing to be gained by eliminating the HST as it stands. Even tinkering with the rate is not a good idea because it is impractical to reduce it by a fraction of a percentage point and a full point reduction would cut revenue by too large an amount.

If you and your 'axe the tax' buddies will pay for the cost of switching back to the old system out of your own pockets as opposed to those of the taxpayers then I retract the use of the word foolish. Somehow I don't think that will happen.

Two wrongs don't make a right and that's what is going to happen if the tax is voted down. You may very well be correct that there are better taxation options out there but that's not on the table at the moment and should not be a consideration in the vote.

bafflegab

Why do you guys need the HST? If you think corps and higher income earners need more money why not just give your money to them directly instead of demanding the government tax the rest of us to do it?

The government brought in the tax on the basis that it was revenue neutral for them. They said over and over it was a "tax shift", not a "tax increase" (turned out it was both). Guess you guys missed that.

Frank

Get over it.

That just doesn't matter any more. Move on in your life. If you want to make a change in the system, fine but voting down the HST will not move you one step closer to that goal. Unless, of course, your goal is to throw good money after bad.

snert

You're here too.

"That just doesn't matter any more."

Really? And what does pray tell? This is why I keep saying you guys defending the tax don't understand it.

Voting down the HST will be a positive development in BC's taxation system.

Frank

Sorry but the cost of any change is just wasted money. How can that be beneficial?

snert

It will mean the overall tax burden on average people will decrease.

Frank

If you believe that I have a bridge you might be interested in purchasing.

To eliminate the HST will cost a whole lot of money in possible penalties and general administration costs. Personal income taxes can be adjusted by just a few key strokes by one individual.

If you want to come up with a, in your opinion, fairer tax system then fine but remember there are ways to rejig the system that don't cost an arm and a leg to bring about.

Snert

Who wasted the money? The BC Liberals that is who! or did you miss that..

GST went down by 2 points.

I'm sure many of these posters voted for Harper just because of that alone.

snert

Any waste of money is a one-time cost. The tax shift from the HST will go on and on.

GST went up by 5%

The Conservatives created the GST at 7% and then lowered it to 5%.

That's still 5% more than we paid in sales tax before the Conservatives.

Of course I'm sure some voted for the Conservatives for increasing our taxes.

Frank

It wasn't 7% or 5% more and you know it. Purchased Canadian made products had a 13.5% built-in Manufacturers Sales Tax and the GST lowered it down to 7.

realisticman

You're comparing a duck with an orange.

The number of products affected by the GST dwarfs what was covered by the old MST.

And as you would say, you know it.

The old Manufacturer's Sales Tax

By the way, the Conservatives introduced that tax too (1920).

You keep lobbing them in and I'll continue to practice my batting.

What I want to vote for!

“So you want to vote against the HST. Fine, but what do you want to vote for? If it's the PST, just say so. But I doubt it is what you want. My point is that the PST never was a great tax, and that just for a moment, it might be useful for people to put aside hardened positions and a visceral dislike of the current government and consider whether you really want the crappy old PST.”

Jumping in here late in the comment game …

I am hearing a lot of variations of the above comments from those I know, mainly small business owners, who have been thinking about voting “no” because the complexity of the old PST didn’t work well for them & they are dreading going back to it. I have asked them:

1) Why didn’t the government at any time in the last 10 years suggest any revisions to the PST to simplify/streamline it? If they had a legitimate fiscal plan to improve the PST where was it? Apparently, as per Carole Taylor’s comments, it was entirely doable, so why not? A respectful, fiscally-responsible government looks into these things, consults stakeholders, makes a plan & carries it through … they don’t sneak it in the back door at the last minute.

2) Do you think we could have modified/simplified the PST process without completely shifting the tax burden from corporations to individuals? If your bread recipe is too complicated (mixing ounces & grams) do you look for a better one? Probably. What you don’t do is have access to the new improved recipe contingent on your subsidizing the local bakery. If before the HST was introduced the government had implemented strategies for minimizing the tax shift (i.e. returning corporate taxes to former levels, increasing royalty payments, adjusting personal income tax levels, etc.) the majority of those who are anti-HST would have been placated. See comment re: respectful, fiscally-responsive government in 1 above.

3) If there was a dialogue going on with the federal government with respect to harmonization then our representative MLAs should have been part of it. Businesses, large & small, should have been part of it. Don’t you as a business person think that you would have had something to contribute to this discussion? Hmmm … the words respectful & responsible come to mind again.

4) If the HST referendum contained a 3rd option rather than simply “status quo” or “return to the PST/GST combo that many businesses hate”, say “let’s look at returning to a simplified PST/GST combo with built-in strategies for a shared corporate/individual tax burden”, which would you choose?

After thinking about their answers many of the “no” voters are now “yes” voters!

It’s more than a visceral dislike of the Liberal government & taxation in general that is driving the anti-HST movement. It is a desire for government that is respectful, responsive & fiscally-responsible … such a government would never have conjured up the HST the way Campbell & Co. did.

HST

It's either complicated or not. It depends on how you want to look at it.

Simplification.
The government was continually attempting to simplify and modify the PST as technology, etc., changed but there were always two filings. 1 for the province and 1 for the feds (the GST). The HST is the only real blanket simplification: 1 return with the feds handling the money and distributing the PST portion back to the province(s). The province still decides on provincial exemptions and the rate of the provincial portion.

There were always Imput Tax Credits (ITCs) for GST expenditures by businesses. With the HST these are now spread across PST expenditures in a simplified way.

For example; Québec and other provinces have had ITCs for decades on what used to be their PST. Now they have one sales tax, a simplified HST.

A combined PST/GST combo with built-in strategies for a shared corporate/individual tax burden”, would be another nightmare. 2 returns to be filed (2 sets of accounting), and all kinds of exemptions like, ('for exclusive use by the business but not for resale', 'fuel supplies for seasonable loggers trucks' and 'agricultural harvesting supplies for Northern Communities', etc., etc.,) it just goes on and on and is subject to interpretation and abuse.

It's doubtful that this subject can be approached without emotion getting in the way. Too bad.

Realisticman is not this time.

Why is it now necessary for me to share the corporate tax burden? On th HST they are not sharing in mine as even the independent panel proved. I know it is all in the way you look at it. It depends on whether you are the screwer or the screwee then you wonder why emotion gets involved.. Now they couldn't even admit that when they introduced it. Nope, it was hidden by some bookkeeping that only came out when people looked at the details and started paying. Why do you think Campbell resigned? Why is it necessary to use our money to sell what we once rejected in a majority if the deal is so wonderful? Why is it necessary to fiddle with the whole HST concept before the referendum just to confuse people and make it like trying to pin jelly to the wall - same as liberal ethics. This nightmare was in place when the economy was booming, what changed that requires we now share businesses share of the tax.

Maybe accountants just were not bright enough to do their jobs? Maybe loopholes for business needed to be made larger? Maybe it is all about who benefits and who pays and you want that to be devoid of emotion? Really?

Skywalker

I challenge you to find a single HST supporter that thinks that it was introduced properly. Everyone knows that it was an absolute mess, presented in a terrible and incoherent manner that only led to confusion. There are even many small-business people that are confused and make incorrect statements about it. Even David Schrek retracted an incorrect comment he made last week.

Christy Clark is changing it because it is bringing in more revenue than expected.

Businesses are abstract entities that employ people. Who cares if they pay this or that tax? All employees and all owners of businesses have to pay the HST on their personal expenditures. It's not as though the rich don't pay. It's just a more efficient way to administer a consumption tax.

I'm still waiting to hear of somewhere, anywhere in the world that does not have a consumption tax.

Skywalker

That's old news. Get over it. I see you're also in the club that likes to throw good money after bad.

Frank

A cost is a cost. That'll be money out of your and my pockets.

I guess you so blinded by your hatred for the tax that you just can't see that there are alternatives, much less costly ones.

What money?

If the HST is scrapped and we return to the status quo ante corporations and businesses will, once again, have to pick up the $1.6 billion windfall they've been given for the past year.

Big bloody deal - we haven't seen a single price go down, a single job created nor a single person making $10G a year lifted out of grinding poverty.

$230.00 per year is hardly a king's ransom.

Good taxes are fair and progressive taxes - no matter HOW you spend the revenue this sucker was a turkey from the word "GO"...

Vote YES and dump the thing before it costs anyone another penny.

Oh yeah I get it.

Any outrage i and others feel about the corrupt actions we should just "get over". That would suit you just fine. Sorry I don't like being screwed by these new/old lieberals. My guess is that very few people do.

I wonder if you felt the same way about the NDP in the 90's. It's over get over it? No, I didn't think so.

Vote YES!

HST Ontario

Ontario brought in the HST and BC had to follow quickly because it was such an obviously sensible thing to do for the economy.

A few rabble-rousers in BC managed to win the public-relations war and convince many people that this was a bad thing. Not so in Ontario.

http://www.rev.gov.on.ca/en/taxchange/faq.html#q6

The idea that things will just go back to being the same if the government has to cancel this change, it's a silly dream. Ask the billion-dollar film production industry in BC and all the union workers in it.

The tragedy is this, if the naysayers win and the HST is canceled it will be the poorest that will lose out. Jobs will be lost and investments canceled. Rebates not sent out. All because some guys hate Gordon Campbell, even though he's now long gone!

HST BC

BC just happens to have a law that allows the poor suckers who actually PAY THE FUCKING BILLS to use their collective power to try and stop the insanity of an undemocratic and unrepresentative government from doing what it said it WOULDN'T do - Initiative legislation.

You can bet on the fact that, if other provinces had the ability (including the province of Ontario) to do what BC voters can do, they'd be doing it too.

It's a lead pipe cinch.

The HST hasn't created a single job here or in Ontario and it never will.

The liars who support it are simply feathering their own elitist nests and they know it - that's why the suckers are pedalling to hard to keep from falling off their stupid bicycle.
It has bugger all to do with either the will or the good of the people.

Ms Christina is simply Campbell in a skirt with a stupid smile on her face.

The poor always lose out - that's the way the BC Liberals like it - it allows them and their lying friends to keep winning.

G West

You're an accountant by trade, aren't you? I can understand that you would love the double taxation. More work for the accountants and bookkeepers.

Six of us went to dinner over the weekend. It was excellent. $453, all in. I guess that included about $50 HST. Deductible expense? No. Go ahead, cancel the HST, save us all some money.

Too bad though for those on a fixed income or the others that will miss out on the rebates. At least the swearing horde will get to slap Gordo's face.

If they have to cancel the HST and reinstate the GST + PST combo, what do think the rate will be? I'll bet it won't be 5 and 5. 5 and 7 minimum and probably 5 and 8 to make up for the one thousand five hundred million that Ottawa will get back.

Rebates?

$230 per annum max for someone with an income of $10,200. now 'sweetened' with a further come-on of $175. A grand total of $405.00 for a whole year….MARVELLOUS.

Next thing you know they’ll be eating at Bishops.

Such largesse. Such generosity. Such concern for the finer things of life: The recipients of these marvelous ‘rebates’ will exclaim, with feeling ‘Merci beaucoup! Your kindness & hospitality are superb, such amazing food and such very generous hosts. C'etait superb! Perhaps the recipients of Mme Christina Dafarge’s precious ‘rebates’ will be comforted by the thought you and your friends enjoyed themselves so wonderfully even though they know they can’t really afford a single meal in an ordinary restaurant - let alone one where they could spend $75.00 on their OWN stomach at one sitting.

One hopes the six of you enjoyed the dinner. Considering it cost more for that one evening of gustatory pleasure than a single person making the maximum allowable income (to 'merit' the maximum payoff of $230) will get in largesse from the BC Liberals for a whole fucking year I guess you won't be too surprised to hear I'm not overly impressed with your facile approach to 'helping' the poor.

I hope the food wasn't too rich!

The PST and GST were bad enough - but the HST is worse...let's start by dumping that tax and then dumping the cheating liars who foisted it on the citizens.

Too long have elites in this country believed it's somehow their 'right' to demean, deceive and pick the pockets of the working men and women of this country all the while playing the phony role of 'caring' human beings.

snert

You can't see the difference between making a one-time and a yearly payment?

GWest

The place was packed. We were lucky to get a table. I'd like to personally thank the farmers and fisherfolk of Salt Spring Island for their delicious and nourishing bounty. I'm pleased to report that everything was prepared to perfection and certainly not too rich. Thanks for your concerns.

There's no doubt that the improvements over the recent twenty years in the quality of fare available in our British Columbia restaurants can only be described as profoundly progressive. Bravo!

The transferring tax burden

The transferring tax burden from corporations to individuals argument is an unsophisticated way to digest and analyze the new tax.

Governments of all political spretra have recognized the undeniable efficiency gains from a value added format. Ultimately it matters less who pays the tax as the only people who ever end up paying a tax in the end are people. And taxing inputs before goods are made or provided is just not a beneficial thing to do.

If we cared about the poor and especially the poor in investment dependent resource extracting communities then providing employment opportunity through these efficiency gains should more than offset any concern we had with this false corporations-people dichotomy.

But of course, that's not what this debate is about. It's about plastic partisanship without any spectre of rational deliberation. Ultimately, the new HST with it's fairly generous rebates will be better for the poor.

Especially now that the

Especially now that the rebalancing the tax payment between consumption and corporate is being proposed by Minister Clark. Lets see Bill T stumble and grumble his way into another incoherent (pseudo-right wing) argument from that development.

Ronald

Once again you ignore rational arguments and instead hitch your wagon to your usual rhetoric.

We get it, you think you're the smartest guy in every room and having to actually back anything up with reason and logic is beneath you.

Ronald Pagan.and Corporate Welfare Bums

What are you talking about? The HST will help the poor? That's like getting a whipping an being told, "this is for your own good". That sounds so much more like "plastic partisanship". You actually think that there will be more jobs if we eliminate all taxes for corporations. That is where you are heading. What is sensible about exempting corporations from taxes but saddling the poor schmuck working for them with those taxes. This is corporate welfare!

What would be fair

What would be fair is if the same people you're concerned about 'losing' a rebate were actually able to afford a trip to SaltSpring and $75. a head for a meal.

Enjoy the privileges of being a member of the elite - but don't forget those who've been slaving in the kitchens and on the farmers' fields for $8.00 an hour.

I'm sorry you didn't have indigestion.

That is no re-jigging

What is actually unsophisticated is the notion that corporations and businesses need ANY kind of a leg up in this province - they were already in an unjustifiably prominent position BEFORE the HST was imposed.

NOW THEY PAY NO SALES TAX WHATSOEVER - AND THEY WILL CONTINUE TO PAY NO SALES TAX IF CAMPBELL IN A SKIRT CONVINCES MORE THAN 50% OF VOTERS TO DRINK THE KOOL ADE.

If you don't think I know what I'm talking about Ronald then you should listen to Ed Turner - the former Executive Director of the Consumer Taxation Branch of the BC Ministry of Finance.

Ronald Pagan ...

Are you simply lying and spewing your foul anti-social rhetoric because it gives you the giggles?

Or do you really not know any better?

Such anti-democratic, anti-social sewage as you spew reeks of the worst kind of self-entitlement egotism and selfish greed and truly offends those of us who actually care something for the have-nots and the working people of this and any country who are unable to make a living wage, try as they might, while fascists like you steal their jobs, cancel their public services, kill their kids through malnutrition and lack of health care resources....

Ah man ... you just make me puke.

Intellectually baseless

Intellectually baseless discussion. Why do I even bother. There isn't an economist from left to right wing that will say that the HST is worse for our economy.

This has NOTHING to do with the BC liberals at this point. Get that through your heads. Now evangelists like Bill T are trying to make it about the party in an effort to combine your considerable emotional responses to a policy that will actually be good for this province. And for shame Bill. Heck even after these proposed amendments by Clark Seth Klein of the CCPA would most likely support the HST.

Spare all the fascist, corporate welfare brouhaha and actually sit down and take a look at it. You'd find there isn't a boogeyman in the HST closet.

Pardon me?

Intellectually baseless?

The fact is you, and Ms Clark, have not provided one iota of evidence that stands up to scrutiny that makes the case for the HST as a fair and equitable way to increase tax revenues.

1. The HST was introduced as revenue neutral to government. It has not proved to be revenue neutral in the nearly 12 months the government has been collecting it...
2. The HST is touted as good for jobs - yet the unemployment rate has not moved.
3. The HST was billed as efficient (this is, in fact, the only substantive argument that economists have made) yet there has been no analysis of that statement with regard to who benefits from the so-called 'efficiency' of the tax.
4. The HST was meant to reduce prices – I can’t even be bothered to respond to this stinker – it’s clear prices are going up…

I would assert that it is only efficient for business and that it is far from efficient for consumers who are, in the end, picking up tax costs from those businesses.

Furthermore, any arguments about the 'efficiency' of the tax are likely to be illusory when an honest interlocutor considers the enormous growth in the size and economic impact of the black market in labour services since last July.

Taking that factor into consideration the claim that the tax is 'good' for the economy is pure speculation - especially given the fact that even a supported like Jack Mintz cannot produce any evidence that the economy is improving because of the tax without extrapolating a minimum of 8 years into the future.

Please, step back and look at what you're saying - it flies in the face of the facts.

Furthermore, to suggest that this mess has nothing to do with the BC Liberals is the most intellectually dishonest thing I think I've ever read here at Tyee - and you have to go some to reach that level.

correction

Should be:
Taking that factor into consideration the claim that the tax is 'good' for the economy is pure speculation - especially given the fact that even a supporter like Jack Mintz cannot produce any evidence that the economy is improving because of the tax without extrapolating a minimum of 8 - 10 years into the future.

G West

Salt Spring Island? You'd better read it again. I never said that we went over there. It's a nice place but we didn't have the time to catch a flight. Everything was sent over to the mainland. You know, globalization.

By the way. I know you are an expert, is there anywhere on this planet, or any other, that has actually scrapped a value added tax or HST? I know that there are around 140 countries that have this tax, tell us which ones changed their minds. Thanks!

Too bad

The stuff is much fresher if you get it locally.

I have less problem with VAT when it's combined with a progressive system of income taxes, properly funded social services and appropriate levels of exemptions or tax credits to counteract the inequity of a universal sales tax....all of which I've stated previously and which characteristics exist in a number of countries which are more progressive and socially responsible than Canada.

You're smart enough to know that too.

The point is, you and your side of this debate are not really interested in looking critically at a system which is serving the interests of a very small group of gourmands while the majority of the citizens of your new country are struggling and eating crap for their weekend dinners.

It wasn't always this way - but 30 years of Thatcherite Bullshit have had their corrosive way on Canadian culture and society.

I know you don't like fairness and equity - I just wish you and Campbell in a skirt would stop pretending that you do.

Cheers.

I recommend the lamb.

I recommend the seagull

Garbage in, garbage out. Admirably suited to supporters of a corporate welfare scheme...fly in squawk a lot, crap all over everything, fly away.

rope-a-dope

Lots of fun here watching the unjustifiable raise its weary head and open its mouth for another stream of blather only to receive another sock to the jaw.

Gotta take this up, though...

"One thing that I hate worse than taxes is someone who spends them or advocates spending them foolishly and you, sir, fall into the latter category."

Never seen GWest do that. Not once. snert, you'll have to prove that one - it's as ridiculous as it is insulting.

Biut if you're looking for taxes spent with extreme stupidity - extreme prejudice, in fact - look no further than our current natural resources regime.

We spent $900 billion in road-building for natural resources access last year for the natural gas industry under a "special programme" and received the grand total of $365 million in return in royalties. Oh, yeah, and 400 more shuttered wells, not producing anything, not as long as natural gas has no prospect of rising above $3.65 mcf in the next five years.

This isn't the first year. We've lost money in each of the last three years, except that the government has continually bribed drilling companies with these massive subsidies to keep drilling in order to keep 4,000 workers in the gas fields employed and profits flowing to Alberta, Texas and Ontario where the drilling and trucking industries are headquartered. In 2008 we got away with it - very nearly broke even on $2 billion in rights sales for which about $450 million was actually received. In 2009, we only lost $300 million. This year, we lost almost $500 million as new sales fell off a cliff, and residual payments from other years with them.

It's a lose-lose proposition, and one that, if eliminated would fund a penny or more off the HST entirely. And the drillers would go back to Alberta and await the next contract for gold, iron ore or potash in some other province - they won't be out of work for more than 24 hours. They're here because we're giving away the province. And we've been too stupid to recognize it for nearly a decade.

That, sir, is the tragedy - that and your utter failure to understand an intellect of the stature of some contributors here on Tyee.

Well done, GWest, frank. You too, skywalker.

I'm still waiting

...for someone to take up the cause of the truly poor - the homeless binners who have no fixed address, collect no welfare as a result, pay no taxes because they file no tax return, and get lost between every single crack this "magnanimous" society can lay before them.

They'll get no HST credit, just like they got no GST credits, because they have no address to mail the cheque to. But they'll pay it on every cheap meal or bottle of water, every toothbrush and tube of toothpaste, every article of clothing or other necessity that they purchase with their meager funds.

They've been taxed an additional sum for years, and absolutely no-one - not even our own Premier Sunshine - has figured out a way to help them out of this mess.

Every single thing these people buy is a necessity for them. There is no such thing as proportional or progressive taxation for them - at the income level of $3,000 a year (a reasonable average for the homeless binner in Canada) anything that fails to take their situation into account and harms it rather than betters it, no matter how minimally, deserves no support whatsoever.

Back to the drawing board. We can afford to increase our public debt from $50 billion to $51.6 billion this year while we take some time to figure this taxation thing out properly.

I'm voting yes.

Business is good

...my ass.

Lumiere failed just a few blocks down the street from me. Closed its doors because of "the economy, the HST and the new 0.05 drinking law."

That's the quote.

Now, is someone going to tell us all that Daniel Boulud is just some asshole who doesn't know anything, has no business sense, and hates the BC Fiberals?

Oh, I can't wait!

zalm ...

Some good posts there. Thanks for that.

Complaining about

Complaining about consumption taxes and more progressive benefits to low income families... since when did the Tyee become so conservative? It just goes to show how blindly partisan many are who will protest anything the opposing government enacts.

The bottom line

FACT
It costs taxpayers more to live with this tax
(families, singles, joeblow down the road, doesnt matter, we all pay more)

FACT
Govt infrastructure is reduced, saving them money

FACT
Govt received a large bribe/incentive to switch to the HST

FACT
Businesses pay less tax and eliminate the bureacracy of figuring out whhat they have to pay tax on, they can claim it ALL back.

FACT
Govt saves, businesses save, and we pay MORE

FACT
Do you want a tax shift and to pay out of your pocket for them to save?