Voter apathy has to be overcome; citizens must become involved

It's the only way democracy in Canada can thrive again.

"Why War In Afghanistan?" (article)
"Harper Government Stifles Freedom of Speech" (article)
"Why The Harper Government Mismanages The Economy" (article) and more..

My federal politics blog: clearpolitics.wordpress dot com

(Click "About" re reading posts, or on my picture.)
@Rolf_Auer

Laughable

This article has a lot of good points, and I agree with most of its points about voter apathy. Democracy is at risk.

But to blame it all on Harper and the Conservatives is laughable. This trend has been underway for decades, and Harper has been in power for 4 years. if you think this will be magically transformed through an Ignatieff or Layton government, you've got rocks in your head. They won't even start the process.

And for the

Not impressed

"I am struck by the number of people -- even in the face of Harper's clear intentions -- who cast a pox on all politics and casually equate their cynicism and disengagement with sophistication and worldliness."
"...willful ignorance"

VERY harsh call, no way to change or help anything but status quo. Way to go.
Take a good look around. Not that many people are shopping these days, even for essentials...

Maybe voter apathy doesn't exist.

http://www.standupfor2013.com/RevisetheBallot.html

Voter Apathy Does Exisit And It's Sad

Politics are tiresome to most and voters would rather shop if they can afford it. It's important to remember why there is voter apathy in the first place. Look at the way our government has run our country (or our province for that matter). Greed, Corruption and Deception should be the name of some of the political parties, no kidding!. I've lived in Canada my entire life, over 40 years and believe me I've seen enough political BS to last a lifetime. The upcoming federal election to me is different this time as it seems it's "crunch time" in Canada. It is without a doubt a marking point in our history and we as citizens should not ignore it but instead embrace it and vote, vote for whom ever you chose but get out and vote. I know, it's boring, tiresome but this time around it's important. We all want things to get better this can happen if we as a society demand it and this is expressed through an election. Just a thought, there are some people who in this province and in this country who have some great ideas for change and growth it's up to us to listen and pay attention and react. Kill apathy and vote on May 2 and June 24, 2011.

Like who cares man?

Of course there is voter apathy!
Bring up anything political during a conversation and watch how fast it gets deflected!
The politicians knew enough to reschedule their french language debate, because they knew that a hockey would get all the attention!
The problem is not only apathy, but the fact that people seem to be proud of it!

Herr Harper and the Fourth Reich.

Nope wasn't Harper that started us on the road to fascism, the play began with the takeover of the media propaganda arm by fascist forces - sort of a Big Business loss leader.

The decline started with Ronald Reagan with the repeal of the fairness doctrine followed by Clinton's liberalization of media ownership rules began in the late 1990s under Clinton.

Cretien ever on the lookout for more graft signed us up as well.

Since Canadians get 90% of their propaganda from US media (TeeVee) you see the result.

Americans/Canadian's used to take Civics classes but those were eliminated in the drive to the fascist expression of the 3 R's. This has led to the low information voter's supporting the fascist diversion - the Green party which exists to divert opposition into ineffective sock puppetry.

Harper-Bush and the TeaBaggers are the current milestones on the road to the Fourth Reich.

Dobbin here fails to point out the power of the dedicated ChristoFascist's with an huge army of supporters who believe Harper's cause is God's cause. Deducting fascist campaign donations from their tithing requirements has been a huge success.

the media?

Wow - just heard a 'debate' on CBC radio this morning. That Sen Pamela Wallin is a sweetie!
How come our left-leaning media are all senatized by Harper? (Wallin, Kent, Duffy).

I trust Mansbridge has cut a deal with Steve by now!

Until it fails miserably...

Few will make an effort to change/participate in democracy.

Until then - demockery!

China has just bought Tumbler Ridge

I guess it was inevitable that they would though, as there are no laws to stop them and our government in Victoria isn't really our government at all and don't usually bother going to Victoria to even pretend they are.
Let's see: one coal mine owned by a company from Austria, another owned by someone in Georgia or somewhere, and who owns the railway which was built by the BC government to ship it all out? CN - given away from the Province of BC by the corrupt Liberal government and now making billions a year. Now the Chinese have come in to start underground mines and have bought two of the three motels in town plus a huge swath of land on the outskirts which has already been subdivided. I wonder how long before they bring in the foreign workers? Move along folks, nothing to see here!
Just another bunch of dumb Canadians working for foreign corporations which take home the real money. "Look mom! I got a job and I'm so happy they haven't brought in foreign labor yet to take all the jobs along with everything else. And boy am I glad that Harper is going to start funding social programs in five years if he still feels like it and has anything left from the sale of our resources to a communist country which wouldn't piss on human rights if they were on fire! It's great to be a Canadian."

Sorry, it's not Austia

It's Anglo American from Australia.

Elections and Canada's eroding democracy

Hi Murray - I wish you would comment about how Canada's electoral system is flawed and thus erodes democracy. Other parliamentary countries have run-off votes to ensure MPs are elected by at least 50 percent of each riding. It is Canada's "first pas the post" system that results in minority governments because the votes by the majority of citizens get split. Another way to reform the system would be for voters to mark their first, second and third choices. that is the method used by B.C. parties for the election of their leaders - why cannot we have this system used for the federal election? Canada needs an electoral system that reflects its diversity and that will allow the majority to form government, rather than the minority.

strategic voting is the interim solution

see
www.projectdemocracy.ca to find out how to vote strategically for ousting Harper

China Rules

How do you expect a four million people here in BC to compete with a billion and a half Chinese with government control of their banks and industries? It can't be done - Globalism my ass, it's one big giveaway. (Go Iceland, they just voted down the latest corporate bank scam sellout there! Direct democracy is the what works.)

Be thankful!

To all of you whining about democracy, be thankful that you don't live on the Gulf Islands where we are ruled by the Islands Trust. When we get to vote - we have only one party to vote for - The Islands Trust! No opposition party or parties to choose from. Different faces, same agenda. It is time for this to change. Myself and my family deserve what every other Canadian has - some basic form of democracy. It makes me want to cry.

Don't worry, social media will save the day

Don't worry, Dobbin et al. This, the first social media election of the Internet era, will see democracy rebound as throngs of youth and elder voters alike take to Twitter to reclaim democracy, holding their trembling candidates` feet to the fire, a two-way conversation that hereto forth has never existed!

If we can get a democracy ap to consolidate this new power into one stop mobile device democracy - we got the evil forces of darkness licked!

the economy is falling, the economy is falling

If you get my drift. It is a way to make changes without shaking up government to much. And there is little wonder the economy is important to Canadians it is what media is always talking about. The economy is paying off for some, but many Canadian are being left out. Families are being hard hit. It is why there is all this talk about families, their vote is up for grabs. Is the election to do about nothing with Canadians looking at an additional 7% added to their tax bill, it is how it works out. And that is just the gas in their car. It is not the price of stuff going up because of the additional cost of energy. Harper talks about 11 billion reduction in services, the true budget no doubt. Harper promises to take 11 billion out of the budget while improving services, how do you do that?

China likes to think it rules, and it does rule the Chinese but is having trouble with inflation. And its people, are encouraged to go to school but not to think for themselves or face the consequences. Those are Chinese rules, Confucius calls it confusing as Communist county goes Capitalist and breaks all the rules. The economy will be greatly affected along with people's health if the environment isn't taken care of. It isn't something in the future , climate change is happening right now.
Are Canadians living on the edge, with quantitative easing and such as Corporations get used to living off of Canadians credit cards, with out worry of interest rates going up. Just yet anyways but just wait and watch those rates go up as easing is stopped.
Journalist don't like Harper, he dosen't like to talk to them and has them thrown out. Without a free press there is no democracy. I guess you could say journalist and voters are treated about the same. Media likes Harper just fine as coporate proganda gets in its lines.

"Amusing Ourselves To Death" (Neil Postman)

"What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one. Orwell feared those who would deprive us information. Huxley feared those who would give us so much that we would be reduced to passivity and egoism. Orwell feared that the truth would be concealed from us. Huxley feared the truth would be drowned in a sea of irrelevance. Orwell feared we would become a captive culture. Huxley feared we would become a trivial culture, preoccupied with some equivalent of the feelies, the orgy porgy, and the centrifugal bumblepuppy."

From Hawkeye's suggested web site....

"To be present when a crime is committed makes you guilty of that crime as well."

Obviously all of the people that have voted for Harper and his stooges (and there is no other word for the likes of his cabinet), seem oblivous to the crimes Harper and his crew have committed over the last 4 years.

With Sheila's expose of yet another Conservative crime today, the list just seems to grow longer and longer. You who voted for the Conservatives, have you no shame??

Here's an interesting tidbit from Iceland...

'According to our constitution politicians are personally responsible for all illegal activities, and not the state.'

As of 04/11/2011

Conservative Party 113
Liberal Party 60
N.D.P. 24
Bloc Québécois 35
Too Close 76
Total 308

shopping? Twitter? TV?

I cannot disagree with your conclusion, Murray, about the price of willful ignorance. However, I am continuously struck by people who assert that shopping, or social media, or the more traditional media are the activities that people are engaging in, as opposed to politics.
"The truth is, even in the 1970s most people spent a minimal amount of time thinking about politics."
Obviously, there is a huge disconnect between politicians and voters. That disconnect can be attributed to race, gender, yearly earnings of politicians...and it is all these things, and many, many more. When I discuss political issues - which I did for several hours on facebook this morning - I don't find people disinterested, and clearly by the very fact that they are participating in the discussion they are not shopping, or watching TV. (Although of course they are using the dreaded social media). I cannot help but reflect that if we are constantly accusing people of wasting their time (shopping, watching TV, using social media)how do we then convince them to converse with us?
People are passionate and interested in many things, but it is easy to watch their eyes glaze over as they listen to politicians promise yet more things, which their experience tells them will not be delivered.They know, they KNOW, that delivering reasonable quality health care is not rocket science, and they know it is bullshit when the CEO of the regional health authority cuts some multitude of programs and jobs, and then receives an increase to their already-inflated salary. They just don't know what to do to change that.

And neither do any of 'us', quite frankly. It will be up to all of us to figure this out - but in meantime, if the state has no business in the bedrooms of the nation, why not the corollary that people's leisure activities are best left to them to decide without derision? If 'we', and only 'we' decide to live a little differently - why, that would be a great starting point.

The real process of democracy

"The only way to make democracy real is to begin a process of constant questioning, permanent provocation, and continuous public conversation between citizens and the State. That conversation is quite different from the conversation between political parties - representing the views of rival political parties is what the mass media thinks of as "balanced" reporting." (Arundhati Roy)

Ms. Roy is absolutely right of course.

Just be very careful when you try it out for yourself.....

Because a lot of people who 'say' they believe in democracy will find your actions offensive and disloyal - they just don't like the participatory kerfuffle that a true democracy is ignited by....and can always withstand.

As Tom Robbins has noted:

"Life isn't stable. Stability is unnatural. The only stable society is the police state. You can have a free society or you can have a stable society. You can't have both. Take your choice."

Too many people who 'say' they believe in democracy, don't have a clue what democracy means.

They think it's about loyalty to political leaders and political parties - and completely overlook that the loyalty must be to the alive process of democracy.... and NOT to the artificial political system.

Our freedoms depend on our active loyalty to "a process of constant questioning, permanent provocation, and continuous public conversation between citizens and the State."

That is democracy.

And that is where our true power as citizens lies.

Though some would like to convince us otherwise.

Well said, VivianLea!

"If 'we', and only 'we' decide to live a little differently - why, that would be a great starting point."

With Sheila's expose of yet

With Sheila's expose of yet another Conservative crime today, the list just seems to grow longer and longer. You who voted for the Conservatives, have you no shame??
=========

The horrifying part is this probably won't hurt Harper much if at all..with all the shenanagins nothing sticks...yet probably a lot of that is due to weak Liberal Party.

Social Dem Timidity...

While this current bullshit democracy is certainly superior to the merchant class exclusive Cromwellian "bourgeois democracy" from which it started out life... after a prolonged period of struggle eventually including a "right to vote" for working class men, and much later "women over 30", it is still very much a ruling "merchant/finance capitalist" class dominated arrangement. It still excludes, in particular, a democratic "power" arrangement over the economy that includes the "majority" working class, but exclusively concentrates power instead in a minority "business-ruling class". And likewise, the working class is still cut out of its so-called political "parliamentary" arrangement, which is likewise is "power concentrated" into the hands of the "moneyed class" and those who serve them. (This latter being the "wannabes"... a bridge too far.)

So, more than "wounded" as social democrats such as Murray describe it, what passes for democracy here is really, by now in history, more terminally "dinosaur"... at best. At worst, it serves a growing fascist manipulation tendency that smacks of the German bourgeois democratic Weimar Republik, at the rise of Hitler.

And were social democrats not so chickenshit/bullshit now, as then, they would speak of this in bolder terms than simply some candyass concept of democracy being "wounded". But then, such equivocation and "absence of courage" is typical of Social Democracy, precisely because it is in fact wedded to capitalism... for all its "reformist/liberal" fanticizing.

No, the Murray Dobbin kind of critique of the status quo will not do. It is timid and insufficient. What passes for democracy here, in the minds of even the masses, is a waste of time at best, and, for such as myself, serves a rising fascist/ruling class agenda drum beat at worst. It needs to be exposed, and an alternative, truly more democratic model fought for and evolved.

Consumerism, Debt, Peonage

I agree completely with MD...

One other aspect of this terrible trend (consumerism replacing citizenship) is that once you're in debt -- the corporatists own you body AND soul.

Your job becomes the one thing that matters most in life and you're forced to put your employer's interests before your own at every turn.

Workers in debt (they all are, and in record amounts) are very docile and disinterested in any kind of confrontation with the employer class.

I saw this in spades when the 'Free Trade' debate raged in the late '80s - it's even worse now as democracy in Canada is about to get the coup de grace from a Harper majority government.

what happened?

Murray is right of course about the widespread apathy pervading our once-almost-a-democracy of Canada, and the fact that such apathy is no accident, but has been decades in the making. A couple of posters have noted that blaming Harper for all our woes is missing the point - it all began in the 70s, and Harper is but the current Bay St puppet, ready to administer the final coup de grace to a dead democracy, in which a few and diminishing number still struggle to keep it on its feet. Revolution coming soon - or the New Feudalism they have been preparing us for - background reading here - What Happened? http://www.rudemacedon.ca/what-happened.html .

Renewing democratic instituions of governance: Part 1

Naming the problem is a first step, this has been done by scores of writers at the Tyee (including Dobbin)and elsewhere before. But without imagining practical alternatives we will remain stuck in an institutional quagmire. Stuck by our history and, excepting our Charter, our colonial constitution.

Democratic renewal is not just possible but necessary. Here are some ideas: Modify the BC Elections Act and the Canada Elections Act so that political parties lose the right to nominate candidates to represent constituencies. Rather entrench the right to nominate with the citizen electorate of each specific constituency. That is prior to an election a nomination primary would take place within each constituency to nominate candidates -who must have have a residential history in the constituency. Up the requirement for nomination from a bare minimum of 70 voters signing nomination papers (BC Elections Act) to minimum 2% of the registered electors in a riding. Most BC Election Act riding have less than 50,000 members so 2% is a minimal starter to demonstrate that a candidate has a base of support in a riding. Thereafter during the election -the constituents exercise their vote to elect their representative(s). Secondly, pass legisalation stipulating that whereas each constituency has a right to elect a citizen to the Legislature or Parliament, the person elected must obtain 50% plus one of the total number of citizens eligible to vote in that consituency - and the responsibility to get the vote out therefore falls to all candidates in a riding plus the consituency association. Third, take away the subsidies to political parties, such as the $2/per vote subsidy and the enormous tax deduction available to donors to political parties (it is absurd to the extreme that donations to political parties earn more of a tax deduction to the donor than donations to bone fide charities).

Renewing Democratic Institutions of Governance: Part 11

Instead provide the $2/per vote cast to the consitutuency association - and provide donors who make donations to a consituency association with direct tax deduction benefits. Fourth, provide more money to consituencies so they can assume greater responsibilities to register voters, publicize candidate nomination and candidate election meetings, information sessions for constituents, getting the vote turnout up by providing services to voters, including transportation, etc. Entrench the right and responsibility to carry out political advertising with the consituency association not political parties. The media can of course report on the publicity campaigns in each riding. Suffice it to say, party control of constituency associations must end. Do not support Mixed Member Pro-Representation which will lead to more political party control due to creation of party lists from which electorates must select. STV is the better route to enhance citizen power. Essentially, put in place incentives to bring out genuine citizen participation in the democratic process -that is make "community power" a fourth branch of our democracy (in addition to executive, judicial, legislative branches) providing consitiuent citizens with nomination powers, political publicity powers, electoral powers, policy formation powers, and greater accountability via more workable recall and initiative powers. Instill more checks and balances to the abuse of power by any of the three traditional branches of government by legislating and financing this 'fourth community branch of power. Minimimize the scope of the Royal Perogative that the PM and Premier and all Ministers of the Crown have. Collaboratively bring this about with First Nations. You're dreaming if you think that electoral reform, by itself, of the FPTP voting system will meet the needs of deep democracy. Ultimately seek a focused mandate from the people for deep democratic renewal. For more follow me on Twitter: JusticeNow_2288

Harper's most effective tool: his sneer

I haven't opted out of political debate, but it is a fairly basic fact that I cannot stand to hear Harper's voice on the radio or TV--I cannot stand to hear that sneer, that condescension, that contempt for anyone who does not agree with him, and I turn it off and tune it out. I think many others feel the same way, and it actually promotes opting out. People do not want to hear or think about him, so they turn him off, and as a result they turn politics off and in a way, give up on the system. And those who don't opt out, if they try strategic voting, well, that only works if everyone votes for the same person, otherwise strategic voting results in a vote that is cancelled by an opposing strategic vote. So the only way to get rid of Harper and the REform party is to join together in a real way and promote only ONE candidate in each riding, and make sure that everyone votes for that person. It's the only way to get rid of him, otherwise we are going to be tuning him out for ANOTHER FOUR YEARS OF SNEERING.

Yes, but so what.

It's simplistic to characterize elites in Western democracies as just ruthless exploiters. Elites do not trust the largely ignorant and disengaged electorate to support anything but narrowly conceived self interest (populism would bankrupt us in short order), and so manipulate us to serve their calculated (and obscured) conception of the good. Consumption democracies are successful (in that the perpetuate and are spreading) because they deliver enough of what most people seem to want, and so long as the illusion of consent is preserved, no idealistic hand wringing is going to change that any time soon.

Many roads to this place ...

I'm with Blackie. The current situation did not arise because of Stephen Harper's contempt for parliamentary democracy or in dark meetings chaired by John Reynolds; nor did it arise because of the will of Conrad Black or the Aspers or the (BC) Black family, or the Irvings. These all contributed, yes, but the ever-shrinking stockade we currently find ourselves in had many contributors from the left-wing side, too, who for generations have gamed a system designed to create winners and losers, and framed issues in terms of black (sic) and white.
The Tyee is an example. What? you say! It's true, when I cast back on how the Greens have been deliberately and tacitly ignored and/or discredited here, I'm appalled. It's the only reason I don't contribute $$. It purports to be a progressive venue for news and opinions but there's an agenda to discredit the Greens, even if it's by omission. Want an example? Hey, Murray, very significant article here but why no mention of Elizabeth May's most recent book, "Losing Confidence; Power, Politics and the Crisis in Canadian Democracy" (2009). In the context of a federal election it's a glaring omission.
And where's any advocacy by the Tyee to criticize the decision of the "Backroom Consortium" to deny the Green leader into the debate? Absent. Do you think this action by the BC is supportable? Your silence speaks volumes.
So, please look in the mirror and see how you-out-there-in-progressives-land are also contributing to this crisis and consider how to do something about it. My hunch is that doing nothing or more of the same isn't going to fix anything here.
How about a forum at the Wosk Centre for starters, or a write-in with suggestions, and the best presenters get to submit a short video outlining their solutions.
The current situation IS serious and it calls for serious action. People are choosing to tune out politics because of numerous factors. Adjust these or change the game and they'll come back. We are political organisms.
- michael maser, gibsons

A bit harsh on Daniel Boorstin

Some good points about the cost of "willful ignorance" MD.
Do think your characterization of Daniel Boorstin as a propagandist for the American system was a bit harsh. Boorstin's excellent work in identifying cultural preferences for simulations and false appearances as an alternative to the real world (The Image:...) and his related work identifying a "consumption community" are hardly endorsements of the behaviours identified.

Michael Maser

A lot of us simply could care less if Greens don't vote.

By all means protest by refusing to vote. Lots of people have been doing that for generations. It only hurts you, not us.

Islands Trust and democracy

Mavis: The Islands Trust likes to make out that they are a type of government, like municipalities or regional districts, so I don't blame you for mistaking them for destroyers of democracy.

Fact is, Trustees represent the Islands Trust TO islanders, not islanders TO the Trust. The Trust has no authority to tax and therefore does not have to bear any responsibility to islanders. They are not what we call "responsible government." In fact, they don't refer to themselves as such but as "governance" instead. To do otherwise would be fraudulent. Put another way: the Trust gets its mandate from the Islands Trust Act, not from the electors of the Trustees.

Don't lament the lack of democracy in the Islands Trust. It was never intended to be a government and has nothing to do with democracy outside of voting for trustees (not to be confused with representatives.)

USA Wnnabes All...

If you look closely at the graphic here, you see Harper above the banner "Nope". Okay. Beneath that and even more revealing however is the image of Obama, with an "H", I assume for "Hope" clearly discernible. Obama of the Democratic Party USA stands for hope, assumedly, though I can scarcely see why in the light of Amerika sliding into still deeper decline and debt... But which says it all about the headspace our own Democratic Party Canada is in, scarcely concealed plumped for by Mr. Dobbin, this party pretty much being a US style Democratic Party wannabe party itself, identifying with the same failed politics of Obama, just the same as the Liberals.

This emulation and identification with US politics of all our parties, across the entire gamut, is part of the friggin' problem folks. Wake up and smell the coffee. We are in a goddamn pickle here.

Our politics and parties, every goddamn one of them, are all part of the problem... not the solution. Time to get it together, fer chri'sake.

Even more "social" media needed?

Why don't we all flood back into the political parties in person, and make things really social? Cut to the chase, and open some of the decision making up to real transparency, accountability, political participation? If my taxes pay $2 to each party, why don't I join one and pay $4-$50 for the platform I'd rather see? I don't think that would break the bank, and it might create some demand for the parties to reflect what I/we who join actually want. This is far less than the cost of a monthly outing to Tim Horton's, folks.

While I'm getting connected in realtime,

why not join two political parties at once, one for love and one for influence? It's not against the law to the best of my knowledge, and it'd be good to triangulate them against each other and what I see in the media, just to keep me honest.

If even 5% of Canadians joined parties and discussed the goings-on with friends occasionally we'd be so much further ahead of the game than we are now politely relying on the overconcentrated mass media and the new social media. As if our reactions to mass media via Twitter are really upsetting anyone in politics who has power! They only tell/show what they want to tell/show, it seems, and when they don't answer questions we are still beholden to the news cycle. We could get past all that by actually getting the inside scoop.

Does anyone on this forum have an inside scoop, and want to answer - are there any legs to my idea here?

"Democracy only exists if I get my way" - Murray Dobbin

I'm sure it was only a post or two back by Mr Dobbin in which he was trying to orchestrate strategic voting so he could get a left wing party in power. In other words use the democratic system at hand to achieve his goals.
Now that that dream of his is fading, we're, all of a sudden in a Non-Democratic Fascist country.

No John Corman

That is Stephen Harper's mantra my friend: he's the non-democrat who shut down the House of Commons twice and defied the rules and the traditions of parliament.

Calling him a Fascist is pretty much telling it like it is.

Harper doesn't believe in democracy and can't manage, ever, to tell the truth.

I'm not surprised you'd like him.

Greens in the race

Arguably, the Greens platform is no more or less coherent than any other strategy promulgated by the four federal parties who have elected someone, whether by pandering or trickery, but there remains the fact that the Greens with their platform, have elected no-one.

Thus, catering to the Greens makes it difficult to keep out the other riff-raff who'd want to join a debate in order to get some airplay for half-baked schemes, such as the Marxist-Leninists, Christian Heritage, Marijuana and Pirate parties.

Arguably, the Bloc does not deserve to be in the English debate either - it's a force with no other effect than in Quebec, so were I king of the world, that debate tonight would have been conducted by three parties only, and I would have just plugged my ears against the shouting from Quebec City. Their turn would be tonight anyway.

Well, it pretty much was anyway, from the little I saw.

The Green party platform is full of mistakes, inaccuracies and platitudes, and presents no properly cost-accounted figures for its readers. Errors such as governments returning to Keynesian economics, unrestrained ability of businesses to profit in the face of a modified accounting system, subsidizing a rebuilt rail system, enabling municipalities (with their dismal system of elected governance) to issue debt, and promotion of carbon credits as a fair and efficient system of allocating scarce resources lies somewhere between witless and idiotic.

There are some good thoughts around agriculture, fischeries, and land use in civic centres, among others, but these ideas lie in areas that matter relatively little to everyday issues Canadians face, with low costs and marginal payoffs. Not only that, they are also in many of the platforms of existing political parties, which leaves nothing to differentiate them from Greens.

But in every important measure, ones that affect people every single day - the economic and lifestyle ones, the Green program is a complete sellout to corporate issues.

It won't stop me from considering a Green vote in Vancouver Centre, but if michael maser thinks the Green Party platform is revealed wisdom, I want to let him know its as full of conflicts and holes as the Bible, and deserves the same genuflection.

Actually, zalm

I kinda liked Duceppe's contributions. And I think the dual nature of the country means we can’t leave the Bloc out of the picture – after all, Duceppe got under Pee Wee’s skin almost as effectively as Layton revealed Ignatieff for his poor attendance.

In fact, if there were a Bloc candidate running in Saanich and the Islands I'd be as likely to pick him or her as I would Lizzy May.

However, I'll defer to Frank on this one - the more voices (given a certain basic vote threshold in the previous election of course) the merrier.

Funny though, I have American friends who say the Canadian format (and I think I may agree with them) is far more animated, vital, and alive than the American presidential sound off.

I think I agree with you about the Green platform - it's absurd and essentially corporatist in its fundamentals - but I'd rather have Ms May in on the debate so more Canadians have a chance to know what she's about ... I have a strong suspicion that the decision to exclude her included collusion with at least the Liberal and Harper party insiders.

In the end, the debate needs to be taken away from the networks and given to something equivalent to the American League of Women Voters - as an example.

Thanks to the Vancouver Sun ...

for hosting a live video-blog supporting Ms. May responding into the leaders debate yesterday.

I guess the Tyee didn't think supporting democracy in this way was worth the effort. I mean, it must have taken them 20-30 minutes to set up and test.