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How Christy Got to Front of Line
Between bites of crow, our pundit maps Clark's win, and some challenges she faces.
Premier designate Christy Clark gives her victory speech Saturday. Photo: Justin Langille.
-
It's Premier Christy Clark
Guaranteeing a 'united' Liberal party, she eyes Gordon Campbell's riding. 'We'll beat her,' vows NDP's Dix.
-
Everyone Seems to Pick Christy Clark, but not Will McMartin
And if your inner wonk is up to it, here are calculations that make our pundit a contrarian.
-
Christy Clark's Bad Trip?
Try as she might to wave it on, her BC Rail scandal train has not left the station.
Waiter, what would you recommend as a side dish for my crow?
Yes, it's time for a mea culpa, a confession of failure. Forgive me, Tyee readers, for I messed up.
Last Friday, I wrote that either George Abbott or Kevin Falcon was more likely to win the BC Liberal leadership than media-darling Christy Clark. On Saturday afternoon, of course, I was proved wrong as BC Liberal members selected Clark as their new leader.
Abbott, after Mike de Jong had been removed following the first round of ballot counting, was eliminated once the second round was completed. Falcon then lost the head-to-head third round count to Clark, finishing with 4,080 votes to the victor's 4,420.
Misery loves company, so I'll quickly add that I was not alone. For one of the rare times in the last decade, I found myself in agreement with the overwhelming majority of BC Liberal MLAs -- all of whom, but one (Harry Bloy), backed a candidate other than Christy.
And it wasn't only the BC Liberal caucus that failed to see Clark as the putative victor. Also incorrect were the handful of number-crunching pundits who dared to put pen to paper and disseminated their pre-election analyses for all to see on the web. (See here, here and here.)
So, what happened? How is it that BC Liberal members elected as their new leader someone:
- Who abandoned the party caucus six years ago;
- Whose record in government was untarnished either by success or notable achievement;
- Who is manifestly unfamiliar with the more substantive details of public policy;
- Who alienated the province's business community during the leadership contest by promising an employer-paid statutory holiday (Family Day) and being generally unenthusiastic about the HST;
- Who seems likely to foment a Liberal-Conservative split on the political right?
Not to put too fine a point on it, but how could the BC Liberals choose as their new leader a bubble-brain quitter who threatens their party's very survival?
The simplest explanation is that while both Abbott and Falcon had pockets of strength across the province, Clark was strong everywhere, in every region.
She finished on top in an eye-popping 50 electoral districts, was runner-up in another 31, and a solid third in the remaining four. By comparison, Falcon gained a plurality in a mere 18 ridings; Abbott led in a disappointing 16; and Mike de Jong prevailed in just one.
Here's a look at how the individual candidates performed on Saturday.
De Jong took a single riding -- not his own
With just 789 out of 8,500 weighted ballots, Mike de Jong was last after the first round of ballot-counting. His candidacy had garnered support from not a single member of the BC Liberal caucus.
The Fraser Valley Liberal managed to eke out a victory in a single riding, Abbotsford South, which, interestingly, is not his own. Next door, in Abbotsford West, de Jong's electoral home for the last 17 years, he ended up four-tenths of a percentage point behind Clark.
De Jong obtained just 9.3 per cent of all first round ballots across the province, but did slightly better than that (13 per cent plus) in two regions -- the Fraser Valley and North-Central Surrey/Delta -- where his campaign had recruited large numbers of South Asian voters.
He also did surprisingly well in Vancouver, taking more than 12 per cent of all first-round ballots, but elsewhere his support was mired in the single digits.
The biggest surprise of de Jong's campaign might be his supporters' second round choices. Given that his strength lay in the Fraser Valley and Surrey, it was expected that first round de Jong voters would favour Falcon as their second choice, but such was not the case.
Instead, Clark got nearly one of every two de Jong second votes (366 out of 789), while Abbott took one of three (270), and Falcon trailed badly with fewer than one in five (153).
It's fair to say that de Jong's second ballot choices were essential to putting Clark within hailing distance of victory on the final count.
Abbott dominated Interior, not much else
The only leadership candidate from the Interior, George Abbott garnered more than 900 first round ballots from the North, Thompson, Okanagan and Kootenay regions -- or about two of every five votes cast north and east of the Lower Mainland.
That performance ought to have provided the long-serving Health minister with a solid foundation on which to grow in future rounds of ballot-counting, but it was not to be. The rest of the province added fewer than 1,200 first-round votes to his Interior base.
Abbott's hopes of becoming the first non-Lower Mainland premier since Bill Bennett (1975-1986) were dashed when he finished third on both the first and second counts -- with 2,091 votes on the former, and 2,361 on the latter.
Interestingly, Abbott did relatively well on the North Shore and Vancouver Island, where he took one in every four first round ballots, but elsewhere the results were dismal. He captured between 10 and 20 per cent of the vote in Richmond, Fraser North, Vancouver and the Fraser Valley, and fared even worse in North-Central Surrey, with less than five per cent.
The inescapable conclusion is that part of the reason for Abbott's third place finish was that he was unsuccessful in signing up significant numbers of new BC Liberal members from the Indo-Canadian community -- or from any other community, for that matter.
In the course of the contest, Abbott obtained 20 endorsements from fellow BC Liberal caucus members, and half were able to deliver a plurality in their constituency -- Barnett, Coell, Foster, Hogg, Krueger, Lake, Letnick, McRae, Rustad and Thomson.
The other half did not -- Hawes, Heed, Lee, McNeil, Slater, Stilwell, Sultan, Thornthwaite, van Dongen, and Yamamoto.
Falcon: little to show for big budget
Kevin Falcon went into Saturday's leadership contest with numerous advantages over his rivals. One was his support from B.C.'s business community, which contributed a whopping $709,000 to his campaign war chest. Another was a coterie of close friends from his days at Simon Fraser University, many playing key roles on his leadership team.
Plus, Falcon has solid federal Conservative ties (in a province that tilts noticeably to the Tories), and is generally considered (on the ideological scale) to be quite a distance to the political right.
But perhaps Falcon's biggest asset was his five-year tenure as minister of Transportation. For in a province as large and far-flung as British Columbia, a cabinet minister with the power to dispense road building funds gets to know all of the politicos and supplicants from Cranbrook to Fort Nelson, and from Victoria to Atlin.
On paper, Falcon had a solid geographic base in his hometown of Surrey; ideological empathy with Fraser Valley residents; connections to business interests in Vancouver and the North Shore; and transportation contacts in all four corners of the province. What could go wrong?
Not much went right. In the province's 24 Interior ridings, Falcon gained a first ballot plurality in just three, and was runner-up in a mere four more. In his Fraser Valley-Surrey home base, he captured only six of 17 ridings on the first count.
In the remaining 29 ridings across the Lower Mainland -- stretching from Vancouver, Richmond and the North Shore, through Burnaby, New Westminster, Coquitlam, Port Coquitlam and Port Moody, to Maple Ridge and Mission -- he had a first ballot plurality in a mere seven. And of 15 electoral districts in the Vancouver Island-Coast region, Falcon led in two.
Shockingly, on the second ballot count, he picked up just 153 second round votes from Mike de Jong's 789 first count supporters. That meant he entered the third and final ballot count needing nearly three of every four of Abbott's second picks to prevail over Clark.
After taking 2,411 votes on the first count, Falcon rose almost imperceptibly to 2,564 on the second, and finished with 4,080 -- 171 short of victory -- on the third.
The cabinet veteran had 19 endorsements going into Saturday's contest, and 13 were able to deliver their riding -- Black, Bell, Bond, Coleman, Hansen, Hayer, Howard, Les, Pimm, Polak, McIntyre, Stewart and Yap. The six unsuccessful backers were Chong, Cadieux, Cantelon, Dalton, Horne and MacDiarmid.
Christy has widespread support, with pockets of worry
As expected, Christy Clark enjoyed considerable support in Vancouver (39.5 per cent of first-round ballots), North-Central Surrey (43.5 per cent) and her old-stomping grounds in Fraser North (44.1 per cent).
What was not expected was her impressive showing in the Interior, Fraser Valley, Richmond and the North Shore (between 30 and 35 per cent in each), plus a stunning 46.5 per cent on Vancouver Island.
In just two B.C. regions did Clark fail to surpass the 30 per cent threshold -- the Kootenays (28.5 per cent) and Abbott's home base of Thompson-Coquihalla (27.9 per cent) -- but in both her performance was considerably better than that of Falcon and de Jong.
Put another way, Clark can boast of manifest strength across the province. And that will do much to solidify her position as newly-elected leader of the BC Liberals, even though her candidacy was supported by just a solitary caucus backbencher.
That said, two concerns might be gleaned from the leadership election entrails. First, while Clark prevailed in 50 electoral districts in all regions across the province, the vast majority of her wins were in ridings held by the New Democratic Party -- 32 of 35 NDP seats -- with another one in Independently-held Delta South.
In the 49 seats won by the BC Liberals in 2009, Clark was dominant in a mere 17.
The weighted vote results reflect that disparity, as the new party leader took 43 per cent of the first round ballots in NDP-held ridings, but only 33.9 per cent in BC Liberal constituencies.
In other words, Clark appears to have to do some fence-mending with BC Liberal supporters who remain skeptical of her leadership.
Second, it may take a while for business interests to warm to the new BC Liberal leader. In three electoral districts where prominent business leaders reside -- West Vancouver-Capilano, Vancouver-Quilchena and Vancouver-Point Grey -- Falcon, the pick of B.C.'s business representatives, led Clark by a healthy margin.
All will be roses in the early days, however, as the new leader is sworn in as premier, selects a new Executive Council, seeks a legislative seat in a byelection, decides whether to introduce a new budget, and mulls the possibilities of a snap election.
Which means there will be lots of work for pundits in the coming weeks -- even those who make the occasional (and blatant) error.
Now, let's try to make this crow a little more palatable. Fricassee, anyone? ![[Tyee]](http://thetyee.cachefly.net/ui/img/ico_fishie.png){kind=small}
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- ...while on the streets, pirates and ninjas put aside mutual animosity to join student protests
80
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bud carlos
1 year ago
Wrong again
"Abbott's hopes of becoming the first non-Lower Mainland premier since Bill Bennett (1975-1986) were dashed when he finished third on both the first and second counts . . ." (says McMartin)
Didn't know former NDP premier Dan Miller was from the Lower Mainland. Thought he was from the North Coast. Who fact-check's McMartin,
anyway?
Frank
1 year ago
Christy's votes
Did a majority of Liberal party members support her? No.
Did a majority of those that voted support her? Because since her strength was in NDP-held ridings where presumably there's less Liberal party members, did she actually get more votes than Falcon or Abbott?
Or was it that she won only because of the weighted voting system?
Considering the problems with PIN numbers going astray and signups of people who didn't want to join the Liberal party, this could be easily challenged by people with deep pockets.
Not that I would want that to happen however since Abbott was the only candidate who worried me.
For a better world
1 year ago
Only 62.4% of Membership voted
What is shocking, only 62.4% of the Liberal membership bothered to vote. Why would anyone bother becoming a member of the Liberal party and not vote to elect their leader? Maybe there were a lot more cats that became registered members, besides Olmypia.
Was all the hype of enlisting new members just hype? Were faulty chads part of the voting process? Was delivery of the PIN numbers a problem? Was Crusty Clark's election pre-ordained by our illustrious elite?
wcullen
1 year ago
Huh...?!?
"it may take a while for business interests to warm to the new BC Liberal leader. In three electoral districts where prominent business leaders reside -- West Vancouver-Capilano, Vancouver-Quilchena and Vancouver-Point Grey -- Falcon, the pick of B.C.'s business representatives, led Clark by a healthy margin."
Do you really think that an internal preference for this or that Liberal candidate is going to have business choose ANYONE but Liberals in the next election...Are you serious..?!?
Yeah, I can see it now the business leaders throwing up their arms and saying "Crap, its that Christy woman.....well, guess I'm voting NDP!"
I think you may have already basted that crow in some serious shine :-P
Cool Hand
1 year ago
Frank
Google not workin' fer ya tonight? :D
Well, here are the raw vote figures for the 3rd and final ballot:
Clark: 28,411
Falcon: 26,119
Total: 54,530
http://www.scribd.com/doc/49623913/BC-Liberal-Leadership-Actual-Votes
Frank
1 year ago
Luke
You misunderstood the first part of the question, the Liberals claimed 90,000 members. 28,411 is not more than half.
But your response does answer my second question.
Just over 2,000 vote difference? I hope Falcon raises a stink.
Frank
1 year ago
Luke again
Why does your link put that 28,411 under a column that says "Weighted points"?
Are you sure that's the raw vote numbers? If so, how would you know because that's not what it says.
Also, on tv we were told there were around 60,000 voting in the first round, so why the discrepancy? Did 6,000 or so people not have Falcon or Clark on their ballot at all? They went with Abbott and de Jong?
notdarkyet
1 year ago
second choice votes
Not that it matters, but if Abbott had beaten Falcon on the second vote would Abbot have received enough second choice votes from Falcon to win.
It doesn't look like Abbott's supporters were supportive of Falcon at least not enough to give him the victory.
I wonder though if Falcon's supporters would have been more supportive of Abbott allowing Abbott to win.
crh
1 year ago
Wow
Christy is going to be premie of BC without having to be mayor of Vancouver first.
Is this a first or what? She must be riding on her cuteness factor to get what she wants.
rantnic
1 year ago
Thank you Christy
Who better to lead the Lieberals down the road to disaster. This is such a big win for democracy,even Christy's handlers won't be able to contain it. I can't wait for her first fumble, the first of many to come.
Fiat lux
1 year ago
Christy will make all kinds
Christy will make all kinds of beautiful promises, no more funding cuts, jobs, jobs, jobs, families, all the way down the line, the public will fall for it, her numbers will rise and then she'll call a snap election, win and sell off whatever is left to sell.
To wealth creating foreign investors, of course.
I wonder when she'll start wearing glasses ?
Ed Deak.
G West
1 year ago
Lotta grim-faced folks
In the BCLiberal/Campbell caucus this morning.
Gonna be a short honeymoon.
Van Isle
1 year ago
The Liberal backroom
The Liberal backroom heavy-weights don't give a rats-ass what the average Liberal member thinks or wants. All they care about is if they can have the Premier do their bidding. If Christy can do the magical balance and keep 'The Boys' happy then all she has to do is hoodwink the voter and that is relatively easy considering Gordo has done it for the last 10 years.
VivianLea Doubt
1 year ago
short honeymoon...
Not to quarrel with your analysis, G West, 'cause I think there is deep trouble for Christy coming sooner rather than later. But 'grim-faced'describes habitual demeanour of a whole swathe of the 'liberal' coalition - something to do with their sad childhoods, I believe. Why do the people of BC continue to elect bullies and tormentors of flies and essentially broken/dysfunctional people not only to office, but to the highest offices? I think it is a question we must try to come to grips with before another election.
jimorsheryl
1 year ago
Democracy???
I recent having a Premier the electorate didn't vote for. Democracy??
I also never did like the sound of Premier Clark. :^)
jimorsheryl
1 year ago
Try again...
I resent having a Premier the electorate did not vote for.
Democracy??
I also never did like the sound of Premier Clark. :^(
alive
1 year ago
Christy Who?
OK, so our "Sarah Palin" actually won!
Not to worry, she will put her foot in her mouth in no time and the press will have a field day!
Fish-counter
1 year ago
At least Christy wasn't caught drunk driving
That will be Gordon's legacy from now till the day he dies. He was charged with, and pleaded guilty to drunk driving in Hawaii.
Somehow, he managed to drive a whole province while drunk on his own ideas. That was quite an accomplishment. As soon as we figure out the true cost of the Winter Olympics and all his other crackpot ideas, we will know how much it cost us.
Christy (Sarah Palin of the True North) Clark has the same manic personality, but it doesn't seem quite so threatening. She does read the newspapers and she knows where Russia is. I hope for her sake she lasts longer than the last Clark. He was in Ottawa but who remembers Joe?
Christy was the best of a bad lot. Abbott couldn't even look the camera in the eye.
Lawrence
1 year ago
I wouldn't sit around and
I wouldn't sit around and wait for the cute, yet bubbly, Christy Clark to screw up.
Until the next election, wherever she goes, she will have two handlers in the front and two in the back.
I would harp on the screw ups she has had in the past, railgate for sure.
Clearly,Sarah Palin told her handlers to get lost long ago.
She could have been Vice President, then President...
zalm
1 year ago
should have seen that coming
Pundits not withstanding, she won because she was female, relatively young and attractive. Same rason Carole Taylor was pitched for the leadership. Same reason Pamela Martin will do well. BC voters are so miserable after so many years of being kicked that they just want to be distracted by dimples [SEXIST COMMENT REMOVED. -MODERATOR.].
She will receive her marching orders in caucus this morning, and there will be no change.
Needless to say, this bodes ill for the NDP - not one female in the running. didn't I tell someone to go enroll Naomi Klein for the NDP leadership?
Skywalker
1 year ago
@ bud carlos
Dan Miller was not selected at a leadership convention so McMartin is correct. He's also quite right in referring to Christy as a bubble-brain.
wcullen
1 year ago
NDP
I think a lot will come of who the NDP chooses as its next leader (hardly deep political insight, I know :-)
But it'll be a make or break move....people's memory of the NDP is foggy at best, highly fictionalized, at worst.
And, is Van der Zalm and the SoCreds awaiting in the wings like a sequel..? Or, will the Conservatives ask him to run again...Yikes!
Citizen Sue
1 year ago
Bubble Brained Sexism
" but how could the BC Liberals choose as their new leader a bubble-brain quitter "
Puhleeeeeze be careful, especially now that we have a female leader, to vigilantly monitor internalized sexism. Christy should go down because her policy approaches are flawed, not because she is a woman. Women are typically eviscerated in BC politics, which is why we have so few in the arena. When Christy flip flops and falters over the next few months, ask yourself "would I have assigned the term "bubble brained" to George Abbott? If you're not sure ...or you have to wring your hands to convince yourself that the term is gender neutral, then it's probably not. Not yet, anyway. Maybe one day we won't have to be so careful - but really.... if we err on the side of dignity and integrity, we have a better chance of raising the political discourse bar. It's a modest proposal, with the potential of reaping huge benefits.
verso
1 year ago
...
"I wouldn't sit around and wait for the cute, yet bubbly, Christy Clark to screw up."
Exactly. I wouldn't wait for the Lib/Con coalition to split either.
verso
1 year ago
Cons
"And, is Van der Zalm and the SoCreds awaiting in the wings like a sequel..? Or, will the Conservatives ask him to run again...Yikes!"
Good question... whoever the Cons decide to go with as leader will have a huge impact on what happens to votes on the right. In some ways, it's just as important as the NDP leadership race but will not get nearly the same coverage.
Watch for the MSM to play down and ridicule the BC Cons over the next several months. They've already started pushing the BC Liberals hard on unity and big business will quickly fall in line.
Jeffrey J.
1 year ago
Christy Clark Supports Renewed Taseko Open Pit Mine
Newly minted Liberal leader Christy Clark supports the renewed Taseko Mine Application.
So it looks like for all the talk of "change", it's going to be BAU (Business As Usual) for the corporately-controlled Liberal party.
Great coverage as usual.
"In a statement, Ms. Clark said on Tuesday, “This project means jobs for families in Williams Lake and I am pleased the company is submitting a new proposal. As premier, I will work to bring the project to successful and environmentally sustainable conclusion.”
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/british-columbia/bc-politics/taseko-revives-enriched-bid-for-prosperity-mine-project/article1916830/
Taseko revives enriched bid for Prosperity Mine project
The project had already edged back onto the political radar, with Liberal leadership candidate Christy Clark saying in early February that, if elected, she would push for the decision that scuttled the mine to be reviewed.
“This isn’t the final decision as far as I am concerned,” Ms. Clark said after outlining her Families First platform of policies, which includes a commitment to put the Prosperity Mine issue at the top of her federal-provincial agenda.
Supporters say the project would be a boon for a region hit hard by a downturn in the forest sector, create hundreds of jobs and generate millions in wages and taxes.
In a statement, Ms. Clark said on Tuesday, “This project means jobs for families in Williams Lake and I am pleased the company is submitting a new proposal. As premier, I will work to bring the project to successful and environmentally sustainable conclusion.”
"In statements made in Burnaby this week, Ms. Clark said that if she becomes premier, she would use her first meeting with Prime Minister Stephen Harper to demand that his government reverse its decision last Nov. 2 to reject the mine."
http://newswire.teztanbiny.ca/post/3297746736/christy-clarks-blinkered-pro-taseko-pledge-is-divisive
Liberal Leadership candidate Christy Clark’s pledge to give priority to reviving Taseko Mines Ltd’s dead and discredited Prosperity project would plunge BC into a costly, wasteful, divisive and destructive battle, the Tsilhqot’in National Government said today.
In statements made in Burnaby this week, Ms. Clark said that if she becomes premier, she would use her first meeting with Prime Minister Stephen Harper to demand that his government reverse its decision last Nov. 2 to reject the mine.
“This pledge might have the backing of those in the well-financed mining industry in BC who believe they have the right to treat the province as their own personal staking grounds, but it demonstrates that Ms. Clark is living in the past and favours conflict over co-operation in BC,” said TNG Tribal Chair Joe Alphonse.
Jerry Munro
1 year ago
Old Money and The Nouveau NDP
"Not to worry, she will put her foot in her mouth in no time and the press will have a field day!" alive.
Nah. They'll clean it up or ignore it. The same as they did for Campbell through all those years.
There's still a tendency for folks to ignore that we are not dealing with a "non-partisan" or even "democratic" media here. This is "corporate media" that controls the message. And they will do whatever they have to or realistically can to create a good vibe for the Corporate Party. (Which they all are to one or another degree in reality, I know. But still, their number one, preferred choice is the Liberal/Fascist Alliance. The NDP, to their corporatist mindset, is just a sorry ass, new kid on the block, "business friendlY" pretender... nouveau capitalist politics to the Liberal old money political crowd.)
Driftwood
1 year ago
Right again Jerry.
It was inevitable. Christy had the popular support according to public opinion polls. All the rest was tinsel on a paper moon over a cardboard sea.
Did you notice that all the media outlets quietly rooted for Clark in the last important days of the campaign?
Close your eyes. You are sitting in a dentist's chair and the dentist has wonderful teeth. You can hear the drill baby drill whining beside your head and you are right to tremble.
'This won't hurt a bit.' Comes the motherly, but still sexy voice of your new illusion. 'We are only going to fix your cavities and renew your faith in servitude.'
'Yes!' You murmur rapturously, 'Oh, yes! You are the way and the light and the seat of all my dreams!'
Imagine your surprise when; instead of filling your dreams with gold and a future for your children, the new excavation is used to suck your brains out and ship them off to China or the US or Israel, to toss your nascent dreams on the dustbin of history and replace them with whatever soma is currently in vogue with the descendants of Fraud.
Welcome to your new reality. Much like your old reality.
realisticman
1 year ago
Frank
"I hope Falcon raises a stink."
We knew you supported Kevin but he's quite happy. No stink. Sorry.
seawitch
1 year ago
anyone, really, but Falcon
Thanks all the stars that Falcon didn't get in. The cremation of the far right in this province couldn't come too soon to save our collective... well, our collective selves, from the self-interested abuses of corporate industry. I only hope Christy pulls this off. Don't forget that even the Socreds were far further left than Campbell and his industry-fawning mongrels. They gave us our publicly owned ferries and Hydro. Let's hang onto what we built, people.
Gladys7
1 year ago
same old same old
Isn't it a BC ritual to vote against the party/leader they are pissed with? It's not the Christy is great, it's that she's not been tarred by the Gordon Campbell brush.
Or that what tar was stuck on her has worn off over the past 6 years.
And now we get to watch if those in place can let go of their Campbell ways, swallow their pride and accept her as leader, instead of pulling off the back room stuff that politicians are famous for. Not that Christy is immune to that...she can give as good as she can get.
Now is the time when we'll see what Falcon et. al are REALLY made of.
morechatter
1 year ago
Enough already with the insults
Clark won the race meaning the rest where not good enough to take first place. And the only thing that put Falcon is 2 place is the fact that George shot himself in the foot by backing a Campbell clone, meaning he is one in the same. Christe won with a NDP platform meaning a great many people don't think that much of the way things have been going on. The best women won, actually the only women in the race. Congradulations Clark it was a good race, and ypur win has left me smiling...
Okanagan Orchardist
1 year ago
Reply to Frank...
You said:
"Also, on tv we were told there were around 60,000 voting in the first round, so why the discrepancy? Did 6,000 or so people not have Falcon or Clark on their ballot at all? They went with Abbott and de Jong?"
That's what I did, but it didn't work out. Incidentally, the same "underhanded" technique was confirmed by our editor of the Pen. Herald. Obviously there were a number of NDP (or Green) supporters with a Lib membership.
robmar
1 year ago
Christy Clark.
Do take strong exception to McMartin's column. Christy Clark is well educated, personable and very bright. She didn't run away from the Liberal gov't - she quit her post and, rightly so - for all the very best of reason. Mr McMartin was busy writing a vitril article when he should have written a positive one - the people voted for her - a Woman, if you please. Perhaps that tainted his comments - it certainly did with the caucus - and, now they have to eat crow - and, lots of it. Hopefully, in Alberta, our next Premier will also be a woman, Danielle Smith.
morechatter
1 year ago
First things first
A new cabinet should be first thats what needs to be done is get rid of Campbell's Ministers. Clark needs to pick her own so she will not have to watch her back so much. Campbell's Ministers are into creating poverty not solving it so obviously not the men for the job.
Driftwood
1 year ago
You type, I write.
This tyee is largely preaching to the choir. It would be enormously refreshing to go to neocon sites which drink only shandy and make gentle fun of them. Any suggestions?
eastvanray
1 year ago
voting syatem
Regardless of the result, the voting system had numerous faults that need to be addressed. I worked the GOTV campaign on Saturday and I spoke to many people who had their PIN codes and had tried to vote only to be told that they had already voted, others were told that their PIN's were valid but neither the telephone nor Internet voting system would accept them and still others who did not get a PIN in time and were unable to get through to HO and get any PIN at all (those voters were not allowed to vote).
Frank
1 year ago
r'man
A little early to declare Kevin happy. He didn't look too pleased on tv and George never cracked a smile once during Christy's speech.
So we'll see.
Frank
1 year ago
Driftwood
The Sun and Province forums are full of right-wingers that are quite easy to subdue. I pop in now and then. The only problem is the place is full of "anonymous".
Other right-wing sites like Shotgun and ProudToBeCanadian will ban you pretty quickly if they think you don't love Harper. They remind me of that great Quadaffi quote from the other day, "Those who don't love me deserve to die" :)
RickW
1 year ago
Spin Doctors @ work
They will show that Christy thought Campbell's plan for the province was just about perfect, but her conscience bothered her about the draconian (though necessary) measures she was forced to take, so she quit rather than put herself through more anguish. But now that BC has experienced the best near-decade of prosperity ever, she is ready to deal with children and families, and save Mr. Campbell from burning out completely.
Does that sound about right.............?
Jerry Munro
1 year ago
The Nerw Reality... Driftwood
"Imagine your surprise when; instead of filling your dreams with gold and a future for your children, the new excavation is used to suck your brains out and ship them off to China or the US or Israel, to toss your nascent dreams on the dustbin of history and replace them with whatever soma is currently in vogue with the descendants of Fraud.
Welcome to your new reality. Much like your old reality." Driftwood.
Amen, brother. And a damn good laugh you gave me. The sheer irony of it. 8_D lol
The times, in whatever direction one looks right now, at any and all the alternatives, justifies every ounce of our cynicism.
Driftwood
1 year ago
@ morechatter
"The best women won, actually the only women in the race. Congratulations Clark it was a good race, and your win has left me smiling..."
Play the sex card EDITED FOR SEXIST COMMENT -- MODERATOR just as manipulators from time immemorial have played the race/religion card.
News bulletin: There is no superior race. There is no superior sex. We are all one and the same; and the only thing which separates us are the few paltry delusions which the monied/media enabled trolls impose on us daily. There are women and there are men, be they from Canada or Africa, who have our best interests in sight. And there are women and there are men, who would pervert the whole evolution of humanity for their own selfish gains.
The important thing at this stage in the game is that people recognize that we are being played not by ideals but by the money which controls ideals. Groovy that you are convinced by the private media that 'this' is the only way to go.
Too bad that you don't recognized that this is the way of 'servants, traditions, and ignorant bliss' (they may, like the dreams of servants in penury, wish only an education for their children) but what if you granted them a decision in the future: What would become if you stepped aside and gave them freedom?' What would become if you allowed them to shed the chains of usury and actually allowed ordinary people to grow of their own volition? These are the dreams of the American constitution; these are the dreams destroyed by the sophistry and greed of old world ambition.
I hope I haven't confused you: What would become is a new and free society in which those with the best ideas for humanity would inevitably rise to the top and lead us into an ever brighter future.
Or you could get a degree in philosophy and ask, 'Would you like flies with that?' Or you could get a degree in sophisty and and ask, 'What can I ask of your delusions to continue my reins in power?' The choice is yours. (you have only to go to the CBC and look up the latest 'interview' with Gordon Campbell to see how shills of corporatism work)
In a few words: We in BRITISH COLUMBIA are looking at new freedoms generated by the new media created on the Internet, or we are looking the same old 'religions' doing their best to suppress any kind of freedom at all.
Walk like an Egyptian, and see the future as an upainted canvas.
Fancy words aside; this used to be a province where anyone could get ahead by starting their own company and selling to whoever would buy, now it is a province which sucks the ass of transnationals and globalism - where you as an individual don't stand a snowflake's chance in hell.
alive
1 year ago
We'll see!
"I wouldn't sit around and wait for the cute, yet bubbly, Christy Clark to screw up."
My bet is that "Crispy" has such an inflated ego that no handler can restrain her from doing a Sarah Palin stunt!
shrike5450
1 year ago
Democracy?
According to one reporter in one of the Vancouver dailies, Christy won with the support of "largely young women, young men, who had no political experience or interest". That scares the daylights out of me. But what is worse is that our "democratic" society is definitely not democratic. The party selects the leader, the leader becomes the Premier (or Federally, the P.M.) and we have virtually no say. Further, for most purposes, the Premier or P.M. rules on an autocratic basis. We need a system that allows US to elect the C.E.O. and deputy C.E.O., on a separate ballot. That is democracy!
Lawrence
1 year ago
Seawitch and morechatter
The right certainly did not get cremated.
Christy has to serve the same masters that Campbell and Vandershovel did, because those masters pay for their government.
Big business is having its wicked way with BC and whomever is the Soclib's premier is irrelevant.
Its the job of the MLAs of the right to facilitate the corporations, not all of the MLAs I'm sure, but many of them.
And while the MLAs are doing that, they can grab a little for themselves, as it goes by.
I go back to the days of wacky Bennett and his government was corrupt.
Why then there was Vandershovel; same thing, are we seeing a pattern here?
The idea is to get these bloodsuckers off BCs neck and this time keep them off.
cosmicsync
1 year ago
Random thoughts
Frank said "Also, on tv we were told there were around 60,000 voting in the first round, so why the discrepancy? Did 6,000 or so people not have Falcon or Clark on their ballot at all? They went with Abbott and de Jong?"
The voters only had to choose a first and second, so presumably 6000 or so did just that.
Citizen Sue, you raise a valid point, but I don't see anything inherently sexist in the phrase "bubble-brain quitter." The federal Conservatives used to refer to Paul Martin as "Mr. Dithers." Was that sexist? Can you imagine referring to a female MP in that manner?
How about we all just refrain from name-calling, (especially you, AGT).
robmar, you claim Christy is "well educated." She would have been better education if she had actually earned a degree during her time at SFU, Sorbonne and the University of Edinburgh.
You also say she "quit her post and, rightly so - for all the very best of reason." What reason was that, to try to get the NPA nomination for a city she didn't even live in?
The point Will and others make about Christy is that she never finishes anything. Nothing you've said in any way refutes that point.
And Fish-counter, Campbell may have had a lot of "crackpot ideas" but hosting the Winter Olympics wasn't one of them. Vancouver was chosen as the Canadian candidate city by the Canadian Olympic Association in December of 1999, and I recall the official bid was supported by the NDP government of the day.
Driftwood
1 year ago
There is something stuck on my shoe.
What the tyee is doing here is playing me for a sexist for their own agenda. And in fact, the only thing they censored were these words: '...sweetie. Clark won the race meaning the rest where(sic) not good enough to take first place.'
Which were not even my words but a quote I was arguing with. These are the slime we are dealing with. It tells me that we need a new forum to contest actual ideas, untrammeled by the ambition of status quo sites like this. What it tells me is the thetyee is embalmed up to their financial eyeballs in the status quo. They hate people like you and me who actually want real change, and they scrutinize every comment for even the possibility that it can be 'played' to prevent change. Come on, Tyee, here is an open forum, let's debate! Let's hear it De Beers! If you have the courage to publish this!
Driftwood
1 year ago
Waiting...
Still waiting for any kind or response. BTW it is sexist and anti-alternative to even accuse me; a champion of the free world, of sexism.
I'm waiting...
David Beers
1 year ago
Driftwood
all we edited was the word 'sweetie' as we deemed it sexist. And we did for a simple reason -- and not the ideological conspiring you posit. The reason is that we judged the word sweetie to be sexist. period. that's it.
You will note that the commenting guidelines request that you refrain from sexist insults. We do enforce our guidelines in the interest of maintaining civility and space for everyone to engage without feeling like they'll be blindsided with irrelevant personal insults that have nothing to do with the substance of the argument.
How does the word 'sweetie' add to the substance of your argument, or is it meant to demean in a specific way?
If you were repeating the word from someone else and we didn't catch that, apologies. Can you point me to it?
Driftwood
1 year ago
Your usual response
is to delegate this particular news item to the back page. But we all hope that you will make a change in your 'paradigm' and actually debate it in a public forum.
David Beers
1 year ago
Driftwood
I can't make sense of your latest post.
Driftwood
1 year ago
Can't make sense? Well hold tight sweetie
all we edited was the word 'sweetie' as we deemed it sexist. And we did for a simple reason -- and not the ideological conspiring you posit. The reason is that we judged the word sweetie to be sexist. period. that's it.
funny that you should deregulate the word 'sweetie' to apply to only one sex.
I have been in numerous relationships when the word applied to me.
'You will note that the commenting guidelines request that you refrain from sexist insults. We do enforce our guidelines in the interest of maintaining civility and space for everyone to engage without feeling like they'll be blindsided with irrelevant personal insults that have nothing to do with the substance of the argument.'
And you will note that term 'sweetie' (which can be searched by the above comments) was applied to 'morechatter' who may or may not be of either sex.
Give up on sexism: It is another plank in the betrayal of common democracy.
zanyjudy
1 year ago
Why Kevin got kicked out in the Fraser Valley
While it may seem a mystery as to why the conservative Fraser Valley has a low regard for Kevin Falcon, may I suggest you try driving across the Port Mann bridge in rush hour sometime? Both ways? Every day?
His time as Transport Minister and hyping the twin bridges and the Gateway plan in order to benefit Roberts' Bank will not be forgotten.
His supreme and repeatedly arrogant response when commuters objected to the prospect of impending prolonged traffic mayhem, in addition to the cost, has not been forgotten.
David Beers
1 year ago
Driftwood
I don't believe you meant sweetie in the same way it has been applied to you in relationships. It read as a sexist insult. We deleted it. One word.
And on this we'll just have to disagree:
"Give up on sexism: It is another plank in the betrayal of common democracy."
brg61
1 year ago
nothing new.
The thought of a Falcon led government sickened me, so I confess I was relieved at Christy Clark's narrow win.
However, none of the final four candidates to replace Campbell offer the "change" they claimed. All of them obeyed the boss, keeping any justifiable concerns buried deep within.
Clark and her media allies will play up how leaving after one term in Campbell's administration frees her from much of his baggage. But outside government she was silent, even using her radio talk show to promote Campbell right to his last pathetic days.
She won on the third ballot because slightly more BClibs figured those years away are their only hope for reelction.
realisticman
1 year ago
There was only one ballot.
There was only one ballot. She won 30% more than Falcon on the first count. Much more than 'slightly'. She held her lead on the second count and the third count confirmed her as the winner.
http://thetyee.ca/Blogs/TheHook/BC-Politics/2011/02/28/Weighted-voting-system-didnt-matter-Saturday-Schreck/
dave49
1 year ago
Let the media cirus begin!
So now, let the media circus begin for Christy.
But what has Gordo been doing all this time? When Danny Williams in Newfoundland bowed out, he was out of office in three days. By contrast, Gordo will have remained in office for some four months. Yet for most of that time the media have ignored him. What has he been doing, what Orders-in-Council has he been signing, what future income has he been spending? If the cupboard is bare, Christy can't blame the NDP.
Driftwood
1 year ago
Well, Tyee
you have deleted some of my comments out of hand, but that is to be expected from the mouth of the 'Mouse that roared' if I may so phrase it without inviting your total disembaguation of reality, you are not the solution; you are the problem.
I'm not going to putze around with various definitions of reality here: let it serve to say that we are all one race; the human race, and try as you might, we will one day come together in that realization, and after that the wars of conquest or whatever you wish to term them, will be but a bad dream in the history of humanity.
zalm
1 year ago
I wonder
Did the "teeming masses of illterate Punjabis" cancel each other out in the final vote? Or were they not properly instructed on the procedures for 2nd and 3rd voting?
Could be grounds for fighting this one over again, should Kevin the Falcon want to try.
...er, sorry, should Ryan Beedle and the BC Business Council want to try.
zalm
1 year ago
BWAAAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!
Clark won the race meaning the rest where not good enough to take first place.... Christe won with a NDP platform ... Congradulations Clark it was a good race, and ypur win has left me smiling...
Awww, thanks for the laugh of the day, morechatter. There's enough tortured logic and bizarre reality in this one short paragraph to conclude it could only have come out of the bottom of a 40-pounder of vodka. And the Dogpatch spelling didn't hurt it any either.
I didn't realize this contest was so significant and important that people would drink themselves into Tuesday over it...
zalm
1 year ago
Driftwood
I said "big tits" and got (s)exed out. You said "sweetie" and got (s)exed out.
Just take your lumps and shut up. Anything more only exposes how badly the Pharmacare program in this province is at keeping both of us sane....
Driftwood
1 year ago
Ah Zalm
The problem for which there is no solution. The insult which is so disingenuous that it only invites scorn. I'm not going to bother.
Driftwood
1 year ago
Ah zalm
Unless of course you wish to invite issues. I'm waiting...
Driftwood
1 year ago
Ah zalm
The brain which time forgot. The pliestecence intellect which even the dinosaurs forgave. My humble apologies.
jim1966
1 year ago
What Exactly Is She Talking About Anyways?
Geez folks, c'mon already, it's the BC Liberal party and nothing more. Congrats to anyone who can be the leader, have no mandate and have all the perks of the job and still come out smelling like roses! I like to say a "Shout Out" to all those folks who voted for Ms Clark, Thanks guys you just gave the voters a REAL choice for whom to vote for at the next election. How quickly people seem to forget that during Ms Clark's tenure she totally supported the Campbell administrations cuts to VITAL core services, and sold our resources down the river. Shame is all I can think of when I think of the BC Liberals and the corruption and lies, enough already, Farnsworth must be laughing somewhere thinking, "Gee, I wonder if Ms Clark will like the opposition benches?". Just a thought folks, I would seriously consider supporting any of these folks on whatever mandate they proposed, cause if they done it to us all once before, then surely they'll do it again.
dorothy
1 year ago
to all those worried about sex-ism
OK, so Christy could have chosen to not have her sex out there fluttering in the wind. But she didn't. From her big to-do about having an office for breastfeeding in the legislature, to coming out as an o-so-cute 'soccer-mom' on the morrow, she has, as they say in Law and Order, opened the door. For comparison, do we know what kind of a mother, if any, Carole James is, or Jenny Kwan, or... No, we don't, just like we don't know what kind of fathers most of the male politicos are, except when their kids get in a serious stew with the Law. And even then, we usually just get the bare technical facts.
So, if the lady can ride on a wawe of 'aaauh, isn't she cute?', then I am afraid she has put herself there, and must swallow the other ramifications of making her sex a political chip. Boobs, bubbles and all. So please stop your sanctimonious red and black ink and let the debate flow freely.
The only thing regrettable in this is how the lady's offspring might feel about being hung out to dry as the kid with a single mom, who puts her image and political gain before his blushes. Being the mother of more than one son myself, I can attest that had I been in Christy's shoes, and had I insisted on coming out in support of their sportive aspirations, then they would have demanded that I wear a bhurka for the occasion.
Or maybe the kid is already hardened to such things, and is well on his way to become another Gordo. What do I know. It's all part of the wild hunt. Or the blind, breathless climb to the top. Bon appetit.
realisticman
1 year ago
Driftwood
Are you sure 'putz' is kosher?
(no pun intended)
Tieleman
1 year ago
McMartin's crow more palatable than some Tyee posters!
Congrats to Will McMartin for first of all having the cojones to make predictions on this most challenging of contests and second for fessing up to his failures. I warned him against it in the first place, but does he listen to me? No.
Second, some of the posters here are no sweet... err MENSA candidates when it comes to analysing McMartin's work.
Lastly, McMartin was not only too kind to say I was one of those who also wrongly predicted the winner but he even put in the wrong link to my blog. The correct link is:
http://billtieleman.blogspot.com/2011/02/puzzling-pundits-can-anyone-predict-who.html
But to save time, my key comments were: "So, if you put the proverbial gun to my head and force me to predict, I'm going to narrow it down to Falcon or Abbott with errr, ummm, uhhhh - the new premier being....Kevin Falcon.
But whatever you do, don't make any bets - there are three absolutely possible winners and I'm keeping my own political betting money in my pocket.
It will be a fascinating vote, whenever it takes place"
So I don't feel too bad that Falcon narrowly losto Clark - at least from a pundit perspective!
- Bill Tieleman
G West
1 year ago
dorothy
100% correct - and very well put.
The Tyee's facile attempts to pretend that the 'sex' card isn't being played by Ms Clark and that its decision to enforce their policy with respect to a few commentators with the jam to point out the irony notwithstanding.
If Ms Clark wants to be considered a serious political force for all British Columbians she'd do well to stop pretending her lifestyle makes her anything special...
David Beers
1 year ago
Nothing to do with Clark
the single word deleted was a sexist diminutive aimed at another commenter. had nothing to do with the larger argument about whether Clark is playing the sex card. So far I've been called 'slime' who 'hates' Tyee readers and 'facile' in my attempts to pretend what exists doesn't. Folks. A word was edited. One. I persist in commenting because I really think some need of perspective and basic civility is called for here. If you can't muster it towards me and the others who work hard to produce the Tyee and moderate the discussion in good faith according to a few clearly laid out guidelines, that sends me an important message, unfortunately.
G West
1 year ago
Not at all David
The 'facile' redaction I was referring to was zalm's - subject heading:should have seen that coming from one day ago. It was a reference to Ms Clark and her campaign "image" - and not to another commentator here - and that's why I took exception to it.
Hope that's clear.
G West
1 year ago
If you think Ms Clark is somehow above such 'stuff''?
You haven't been paying attention:
http://tinyurl.com/4fx92f7
Ms Clark has quite a bit of a `sexist` reputation herself, don`t you know.
DavidN
1 year ago
yahoos
The infighting, sexism, barbs and general lack of wit in the discussion is beyond belief. Well, no it isn't.
The posts (mine included I suppose) exemplify the ideocracy that has allowed the Liberals unchallenged power for almost a generation.
The opposition is in tatters and the middle ground is in hiding. The pseudo-intellectual Left has decided to argue about Premier Clark`s application of her feminine assets, not her past education policy or anything substantial. We know little else, and grasp at what we see.
LOL pretty much sums it up.
Well, the angry mob now gets a chance to decide on what insult can replace `Gordo`...when not beating eachother senseless.
I think Crispy is about par for the course. Is their any agreement on anything beyond neocon and all those regular old school insults? Make it good, it could be another decade before we get another chance by the sounds of it.
Thank you all for the good humour.
Keep up the good work Mr. Beers.
BTW, I guessed Falcon also out of a lack of optimism, but am happy to see the party go to newish ground. Concerned about her support of non-secular school funding, she remains more or less a mystery to me, and to most of us apparently.
That is not good.
We know she has breasts and is cute.
Is that good or bad? I personally am OK with that, although I'd still prefer Angela Merkel.
zalm
1 year ago
with regret
It appears I'm being misunderstood. My argument is not with Ms. Clark using her womanly charms, but the ability of BC voters, particularly male BC Fiberal supporters, to focus on nothing else. I doubt more than a small handful had any idea of what the issues were in this leadership campaign, or they would have responded better to DeJong.
No, the off-the-wall pronouncements and schizophrenic changes of direction point not to a malevolent Medusa seeking to run the province onto the rocks, but rather to a confused middle-aged woman with insufficient experience in satisfying the demands of captains of industry when the evidence of her senses tells here that her family (and by extension, everyone else's too) is far more important than a balance sheet or a tax cut.
No, it's the average BC voter I despair for. Equal parts of anaesthetized, hedonistic, lazy and abused, the voter is virtually guaranteed to make the wrong choice for leadership no matter who is chosen, because they're focusing only on image, and that, as we know, is constructed by social discourse, which is currently owned by the MSM, amended only slightly by "tweets" from similarly vacuous electors.
It's not a good time to be a Canadian in the mould of Irwin Studin. But that's no reason to stop trying.
zalm
1 year ago
Ah, driftwood
I've been too obscure again. No insults intended.
G West
1 year ago
@Zalm
So true....and yet, in my wife's circle of professional women friends, not one of them will be supporting Ms Clark - although there was, apparently, one member of the support staff who has seen her 'victory' as a considerable achievement for a woman.
I suppose, were her colleagues 'hockey moms', that verdict might be different - of course.
zalm
1 year ago
Doubtless the verdict is different
But I do all my ranting on-line rather than in the house, because the professional woman who runs the idiotbox while I cook dinner also feels Christy won something for women, although she can't put her finger on what.
We talk about other things at dinner...
Driftwood
1 year ago
My apology
First, I'd like to apologize. I'd like to apologize to David Beers who has probably the best site on the West Coast. Second, I'd like to apologize to zalm for jumping all over him.
Third, I would like to ask you all for the internet address of bands which came right out and sang during the last election. There was a girl lead singer there who had it all. The notes, the talent, the vitality. She has the voice, and I have the lyrics - it is as simple as that. But since the last election I have never been able to find her - any help would be appreciated. Point me to the sites and I will decide. It's not about money, it's not about love: It's about making the best music video - anywhere, anytime.
It's about bringing together the best performers and the best musicians, and the best creative talent.
Picture someone wearing a fine Scottish tweed (sorry, but Scottish is the best there is)jacket which has seen better days. It may have a stain or two and it practically speaks of a tinker: It tells you of the faded dreams of the common person, but it also speaks of the pride of the common man; be they workers in a carnival or chip covered labourers on a green chain gang.
Start with that, and let the star of the show show you how great she is (I already have the lyrics) Then let the rest of the band be absolutely great in a bridge (Without the star singing a note - this is about the band 'carrying' you on and letting you know that this is about everybody.) Then highlight various green groups (but only the groups who are playing at their absolute apex; and highlight some of the great BC talent which is out there - this ain't about the CBC; this is about real talent waiting in the wings and here you will need a musical director and someone with classical training and absolute mastery of the harmonica [not me; but I could give direction and riffs]) and the video should switch back and forth between the band and the beauty of the coast you live on. I'm tellin ya, if this were done right with only the great musicians we already have here in BC, it would be a magical moment into which you could step for all time.
Once again, I apologize to David Beers and zalm for acting like a fur ball in our last exchanges. Sorry.
People don't get great just from talent; They get great from talent and a LOT of hard work. I have seen some of the best guitar players anywhere working in two bit gigs in Alberta, and the only reason I knew they were great is because I sat there and listened and knew they were as good or better than any of the stars which happened to come down the pike. Well, we have the talent, and we also have the magic (whatever it is) of the Coast of British Columbia. It's time to do something with it. It's time to take lyrics like:
'These old bones weren't made for walkin
These bones were made for talkin
Those old trees have room to grow
to a past we'll never know'
But that doesn't begin to encompass the lyrics which could come.
Driftwood
1 year ago
With apolgies to Michael Jackson
Who sang a great song about the environment before he died. Just that one song; taken aside from all the tinsel and sung with his beautiful voice, would have been enough. Watch the last movie; fade out the tinsel; that is a great song. I know, child molester, pedophile, yada yada, the media. Don't believe it for a second. Picture some scumbag from Faux News looking for a story and you will be closer to the truth. Anyway (and I am not a pedophile and don't even suggest it unless you want your nose rearranged) here are my current ramblings:
I remember one time I was passing through a small town in BC and stopped at a pub for a beer. I saw a bunch of instruments sitting empty on the stage as their owners worked like hell outside to make their small enterprise a success. It was so sad that a tear came to my eye. All I ever wanted was to play in a small band like they had; but I couldn't. Not from lack of bravery; from lack of talent. (but somebody saw what I felt) So I left. And going down the road to nowhere, a biker came up behind me. He kept station and watched me, can you imagine how that made me feel? I had the lyrics he needed, and he had the talent I will never have. I should have turned around and went right back. Don't matter if he thought I was a cop or whatever, what I wanted was the opportunity to say, 'This is my song and this is how it should be done.' And show them on my harmonica how I envisioned it. And welcomed the help on the music which would have inevitably come. Make something real in this world of false dreams. Like that.
David Beers
1 year ago
Thanks Driftwood
appreciate it.