I wonder which pool of

I wonder which pool of political giants you see us dipping into to select the successor to our present leader. Some no-name from the disatisfied rump of the present caucus? Or perhaps you're thinking the average voter would be be more attracted to one of our dinosaurs from the labour movement.

Maybe you dream that Gregor Robertson will want to come to the rescue although personally I am nursing dual suspicions that you are either working for Krog, or perhaps more sinisterly, someone from the Glen Clark wing of the Party.

If you're thinking of Simpson, you're a lunatic. He now has the distinction of having serious baggage problems in both of his former parties - ie the Liberals and now the NDP. Bob doesn't get along with anyone except for other other people who don't get along with other people.

Whatever you and the people you are working for are thinking you probably haven't considered the possibility that some sort of nasty "surprise" will emerge from the suicidally divided leadership convention you are seeking - say a compromise candidate .. someone like Bob Skelly .. now he would be good.

I guess Bob Skelly...

probably has as much chance of getting elected as Carole does, according to what I'm reading the voters are saying and have been saying for the past two elections.

what we need.

Party policy should be decided by the membership and whoever is the leader should simply follow that policy.
Given that scenario, a leader should be the one who has enough charisma to attract those voters who always make their decisions based on popularity.
Hence we could hire an actor for that ledership position and be better off than with the usual type.
Of course there exists the possibility that we might find a person who actually listens to the membership and the general public ---nah, that is dreaming!

To Rick up north

Whoever heard of Carole James before she got the nomination? When there is a vacancy in politics someone steps up to the plate. It will be someone who doesn't take six years to learn how to effectively do the job of opposition? Until there is a vacancy, you won't even now how the pool is.

Rick Up north

And here I thought that Carole James WAS the Glen Clark wing? I thought I read somewhere that Bill was secretly plotting to bring Bill Vander Zalm back as leader of NDP under a "right/left big tent" banner. But I would think it more likely that he is actually fronting for Lillian, who could be a closet socialist.

In any case, I think an early convention with a secret ballot on the leadership question would be the way out of this mess. On the other hand, it is entertaining to watch the theatrics like last weekends "North Korean style Dear Great Leader" rally at provincial council. I'm sure there will be more of that yet to come to keep the membership singing the praises of Dear Great Leader James.

Corky Evans

This guy would get more of the general population out to the polls. The general population is fed up with almost everyone. James was silent, or at the very least weak, on issues like private power companies decimating our wilderness areas. Time has come to limit the influence of those who stand to make immense profit from these projects....they continue to get approvals and slip under the radar. Public perception is "they will do it anyways"......not just limited to the draining of alpine lakes, but all other issues affecting us lowly worker types. Time to speak to people in a motivational way and change the "I don't make a difference" attitude. James cannot do that.

@Rick Up North

You've asked Bill a good question. But to answer it means removing the sugar coating of his poison. Serving it up with a blank line where the candidates name should be gives it broader appeal. Vegans or meat eaters, youth or seniors, centre-left or more left, we can each project our "perfect" leader into the space and build our own personal fantasy. Start putting names up, and reality bites.

Who does Bill support?

Bill, it is ludicrous for you to step back and provide some type of "oustide analysis" when it is your vitriolic comments that have helped foment the dissent against Carole.

Like Rick, I know that you are far too smart to call for a leadership convention without a candidate in mind - and one you think can win. Once again, I challenge you to be an ethical columnist and admit your biases. Who do you support?

Three Possible Canadidates

How about Mike Farnworth, Adrian Dix, or Scott Fraser stepping up to take over the leader's position? I see the first two MLA's on TV all the time. I am sure we can use their talent in much better ways than propping up loser Carol.

The Hollynaut

Bill continues to stump for the Rockefeller backed Hollynaut that delivered the "axe the tax" nightmare in replacement of Sustainable BC coupled with the ABC campaign.

Its the Vancouver old boys club and there shiny new house of Solomon that delivered Gordo's threepeat and will destroy any other chance of anyone grasping the brass ring.

ITs destructive old boy politics that have brought us to this place in time. Do we need more of the same? Only this time packaged as charitable funds with a green "social" agenda? You know the old business first socialism? The "made in BC" Fabian agenda?

Who runs this paper or online blog or whatever it is?

You guessed it....

Who funded all 36 organizations "opposing" the pipeline?

You guessed it.....

Who has funded all green initiatives since the new millenia?

You guessed it....

The Hollynaut must have its way or we get the neo liberal hard core global sell out that has brought Iceland, Greece, SPain and now Ireland to its knees...

The BC Bilderbergs have had their way with us for decades. Bill speaks of Direct Democracy. Is that the next Buzz word the "RINGO's" are going to manifest under the all seeing eye of the Greenfather in Vancouver's new house of Solomon and their Hollynaut?

what Carole got right...

is that it IS selfish - not to mention vulgar and unseemly - to be investing precious time and energy and ego in infighting with so many issues and concerns that we could be focusing on. I could point out to Claire Trevena, for example, that in my riding to the south of hers, 25 % of women over the age of 50 are unemployed, and it is higher in her riding. The cold broke records last evening, as does the homeless count - neither my riding nor hers' has a 24 hour shelter, whilst the percentage of homeless is greater than the downtown Eastside. Let us get on with the concerns of our communities, the massive presures on our environment, and rising above the absolutely deadening culture of get, acquire, have, flaunt it.

The leader of a truly democratic party is, by very definition, largely irrelevant. The fact that apparently neither major party recognizes this is what alienates them from the voter: how true that 'we vote with our actions'. Or maybe better characterized as our 'non-actions', as in not voting. Those in the NDP caucus who oppose James will fare no better so long as they fail to recognize that politician's characters are also judged on their actions, not their words. I fear there are just no words adequate to describe the contempt of the voting public for politicians of any stripe who think that their current posturing is enlightening, invigorating, or inspiring.

Dissonance and Dissidents

Shift your focus onto the Dissidents.

They're responsible for this squabble and it's up to them to fix this mess. They tested the waters with their public display of non-suppoprt, and lost. They've heard loud and clear what Provincial Council (the governing body in between Convention) has said. So they should abide by the vote taken.

If they really want to form government, if they really believe in democracy, if they really share the desire to legislate progressive social policy, then the Dissidents should take the olive branch extended by Carole this weekend, and move on.

@edward01ca

Three good NDP MLAs, all of whom have declared their support for Carole James, and apparently they think the current leader should carry us into the next election. It would be more sincere to put up some of the names of those who champion change, and then play your game.

And the question really isn't to us, it is to Bill Tieleman.

direct democracy

Spot on, Bill! Good analysis of the bigger picture. People the world over are wondering what is happening to the hard won democratic rights of their representation in government decision making.
Chris Hedges,an American journalist,interviewed in Ontario, who wrote a recent analysis "Death of the Liberal Class" highlights the loss of leaders able to champion middle class populist values.

People in Burma and Iran, to name a couple of example countries, are risking their lives and being supported by some of us abroad who safely sign petitions in solidarity to save women's lives. Women who have simply stood up for civil rights.

What we have here is a new civil rights movement. Direct Democracy.
We here in B.C. may think we are the centre of the action but because Dave Barrett back in the early 70's, had the vision to set the Recall Referendum in motion and yes, Bill Vanderzalm followed through with a version of that Referendum, we are able to become the mice that roared.

If we have to separate into selective parties that represent factions of the communities...maybe that's a good thing! Then we will hopefully see a better proportional representation of the electorate and a more honest and open discussion among the people. Then those who represent us in government will have to compromise among themselves to truly represent the taxpayers,the voters.

He Says, She Says

1. Both James and Campbell had the exact same 32% approval rating in the latest Mustel poll.

2. Both James and Campbell had the exact same 84% recent endorsement by their respective parties.

3. An ARS poll confirms that a majority of NDP voters want James gone. The same ARS poll confirms that a majority of Liberal voters want Campbell gone.

4. Some NDP caucus members revolt against James. Some Liberal caucus members revolt against Campbell.

5. NDP membership is at 10,000 and hemorrhaging. Lib membership is at 30,000 and hemorrhaging.

5. Carole stays and Gordo goes.

6. The NDP opts for status quo. The Liberals opt for renewal.

And with that, while the Liberal caucus now appears united, the NDP caucus revolt continues:

http://q101.ca/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=276%3Afraser-nicola-ndp-mla-harry-lali-feels-betrayed-by-party&catid=4%3Alatest&Itemid=20

Newsflash. The voters want positive change and get turned off by dysfunctional politics.

Twelve years of the Campbell regime...

...have got people focused on why. That involves looking at the past elections and why they were lost. It comes down to facing reality and not being gullible. What Markunas and Madelaine can not grasp is that sometimes the fault lies in the choices made back when it really counted. They chose a leader and now when the polls are showing that all bets are off and the liberals are once again going to snow the public with a new, fresh leader, the NDP still hangs on to the belief that the majority could not have been wrong. Any different opinion is brushed off as dissenters squabblers, whiners etc.. So what are y'all going to do when the liberals select another horses arse endorsed by the media and the polls short that the Lieberals and the NDP are neck and neck in the polls? Give Carole a third strike? Yes, just wait a few months and see.

BIll Tieleman responds

Some of the posters here want to hook me but they are using bad bait - this tyee ain't biting.

But I will say this - I work for no one but myself. I am merely stating the obvious - that the NDP is facing a crisis that must be democratically resolved in a way that is seen as fair by both party members and NDP MLAs - and soon.

No one here or on my blog - http://billtieleman.blogspot.com/ - has disputed any of the facts I have presented - they simply don't like to hear them.

Too bad - that doesn't change them.

And it should be painfully clear by now that berating and browbeating those who recognize the problem into shutting up and pretending everything is fine isn't working - it can't.

That's why I have proposed a sensible, democratic resolution to an increasingly acrimonious situation.

I'm not suggesting an alternative leader for the NDP - I'm suggesting an alternative to potential disaster.

Opposition leader

Of course the fact is CJ learned the job of opposition leader quite quickly and has done fine.

agreeing with Tieleman .... again

yes...let the members make this decision, not the provincial council.
otherwise the party will answer at campaign fundraisers and ultimately, the polls.
again i find myself agreeing with Tieleman. hmmm...Premier Tieleman has kind of a nice ring to it

Members have spoken

The NDP members did make a decision at the last convention - to have leadership review in 2011. Between conventions the NDP membership is represented by Provincial Council. Ridings met and gave direction to their Provincial Council representatives before this council - hence the resolutions up for debate. The outcome is a legitimate expression of the will of the members. Just because it wasn't the outcome a minority wanted to see doesn't make it any less legitimate. Now is the time to pull together and turn NDP energies on winning the next election and winning a mandate to address homelessness, climate change, economic stagnation and a better future for our kids.

Nice though Markunas, but

Nice though Markunas, but does the NDP supporters have the luxury of time to stand still till fall of 2010 as the support falls. Don't blame the columnists , and a number of MLA's who state the obvious. James is in trouble but doesn't seem to understand or doesn't want to understand.
It will make life a lot easier for all involved by having a vote, and soon, of all card carrying NDP members. Ten bucks makes you a member so do it soon because one has to be in the fold for a few weeks prior to a vote. To pretend all is well shows a so called leader person who really is mixed up

VivianLea Doubt

I like that. It cuts through all the cheese and get to the point. Only totalitarian governments need "strong leaders". Do you suppose that "the people" are frightened of democracy, and only demand one when it comes to shopping?

Frank

Based on people's hatred for Campbell and the polling numbers which are shifting as I write. Campbell is leaving and now she will have to do it on her own. That must be why she has the full 100 % support of caucus. Right? You think all those people who sit on the benches beside her every day are not better able than you to make that call?

Some of us will soon be able to say, we told you so. There won't be a lot of fun in that because we will all get screwed over for another 4 years. But the day is coming friend.

VivianLea wrote:

Quote:

"what Carole got right...
is that it IS selfish - not to mention vulgar and unseemly - to be investing precious time and energy and ego in infighting with so many issues and concerns that we could be focusing on. "

Can't agree, VivianLea.

What you are referring to as 'infighting' is dissent.

There is nothing selfish, vulgar or unseemly about dissent.

It is fundamental to any real democracy.

"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty. When the loyal opposition dies, I think the soul of America dies with it."

- Edward R. Murrow

Skywalker

The NDP is going to lose support because of the attacks on the party from the Left. Its been far more effective than all the attacks from the Right over the last 10 years.

And as NDP support falls it'll be me throwing around the "I told you so" tagline.

The NDP at 25% is what you guys want, because then there won't be any more centre-left and centrists supporting the party and CJ will have no support and she'll be forced to resign.

So be it. But don't expect those of us who have sat here and watched this unfold to forgive and forget. I know I won't forget the fact that for the third time many on the Left will have knifed an NDP leader in the back nor will I have forgotten that the knives started to come out after CJ lost in 2005.

If your side thinks the NDP will still be polling above 45% after CJ is forced out and someone like Jenny Kwan or Harry Lali takes over you're wrong.

I look forward to seeing someone as ineffective as Stewart defend the NDP on the forums day after day. It'll be funny to watch.

To Bill

I assume if you get your leadership convention we once again won't be picking a leader via the first-past-the-post system?

Why is that exactly? No political party ever seems to want to use it. There can't be anything wrong with it can there?

I just thought I'd ask since you seem to be one its biggest proponents.

I know Frank its tough...

...to admit that it is about you when you are not up to the job. Blame those who are not fooled. Then when you hang in there too long it is their fault not yours because you prolonged the battle. Nope it is always the other guy's fault.

Skywalker

Strange words coming from a guy blaming Carole James for the problems in BC.

Why don't you fix the province then instead of blaming CJ for not doing it?

@Skywalker

Many of the people who've been watching Gordon Campbell at close range have a bit of a problem with the idea that, in order to defeat him and his band of noxious hangers on, the NDP has to have the 'perfect' leader...which seems to be what YOU want.

I know she’s not perfect – I also know anyone who claims that their candidate is perfect has been smoking something stronger than Export A.

I want to see the son of a bitch and the party which nurtured and suckled him gone. That’s the main job: Hopefully they’d be gone for good but I know the right wingers always come back with a vengeance so I know it won't last.

I also know that the only party which can put paid to the government that has done so much harm to this province and its people is the New Democratic Party.

If you believe that a different leader is going to enter the scene stage left I'd like to know who it is.

I don't see anybody standing in the wings - the vast majority of provincial council says the right leader is in place now and, as far as I can tell, the majority of caucus says the same.

I know you think she's a nobody who popped up from a hole somewhere and I can see I'm not likely to disabuse you of that idea so I won't even try.

However, I've enjoyed (and mostly agreed) with what I've seen you write at Tyee over the past five years or so that I've been around here; even so, I think you're wrong on this score and I'd really like to see you tell us who you think should take over James's job.

I don't see how a vicious leadership race among a group of currently invisible candidates for the top job is going to help things - in fact, quite the contrary.

Who's the mystery savior?

Bill's suggestion is

Bill's suggestion is self-contradictory. If the new Liberal leader calls a snap election when s/he is chosen (as Bill expects -- me too), an NDP leadership review in March would be stupid. it would mean our energies in the next months would be totally occupied by bickering, not defining policies, mobilising for election. if the new Liberal leader doesn't call a snap election, we can have the leadership review as scheduled in November.

PS, If I were the Liberal leader, I'd go for advancing the referendum (to avoid having to take any position on the tax except to "follow the will of the people") and the election (to avoid developing a track record to be held against me.

Frank's Misquotes

"Strange words coming from a guy blaming Carole James for the problems in BC."

Frank, you make a habit of misquoting and misrepresenting what others say rather than making intelligent arguments.
Nasty personal comments replacing reasoned opinions has driven the dissidence to a higher level. Noone wants to give credibility to the slander and scorn by bending over for bullies.

If you can show me where Skywalker or anyone else has blamed CJ for the province's ills please do so, otherwise keep your quotes and attributions a little more accurate. As far as I can see we have spread the blame for the NDP's ills to include Moe Sihota and Carole's handlers, who are desperately clinging to their hopes for big time money and power if she becomes Premier.
Blaming the critics in the party for Carole's unpopularity is ridiculous; if her over the top "tough Mama" act doesn't impress the public I expect the Carolers to contend it was the fault of the dissidents for pissing her off.

lynn...

I believe you are exactly right: dissent is essential to the democratic process. You and I sometimes disagree, but I do not find that problematic: you make me think, and I would posit that makes me a better person.

I do find myself wondering, though, that there is so much discussion about 'new leaders' when my community is in crisis in so many ways.As I said in my first post: the temperature here has been minus 20 with the wind chill factor, we have somewhere around 300 homeless people, there is no 24 hour shelter. I could go on and on, but make no mistake, this is a crisis - and this community will bear the economic costs as well as the soul-scarring costs of these and other issues for years to come. Yes, I find it vulgar that a group of well-fed and well-housed and well-positioned people would make it their personal mission to focus on 'leadership' issues. 'Tis to be expected from the Liberals, I suppose - one might have thought there was something behind those fine words in the New Democratic constitution.

What is really vulgar...

is that the only time Carole James actually finds it in her to speak with any passion about anything, is when she is defending her position as "leader" of the NDP. She is a pathetic joke and no amount of spin will change peoples perception of her indifference to all the problems which average and ordinary people are facing here in BC.

we look at the truth but still do not see it

In the United States, the Tea Party movement has gained huge traction ...

The Tea Party is funded by the corporatist Kochs, of course. Traction comes easy with that sort of social engineering in place.

AUTHOR QUOTE:

In Toronto, anti-elite candidate Rob Ford simply devastated elite politician George Smitherman -- a former Ontario Liberal deputy premier -- in the election for mayor.
In the United States, the Tea Party movement has gained huge traction even as it clearly has no coherent policy prescription for the country other than anger at existing politicians.
And right now, that's enough.
Here in B.C. we've seen the incredible public response to the direct democracy citizens' initiative campaign of Fight HST -- which I am involved with -- against the hated Harmonized Sales Tax.
And we'll soon see if the Fight HST-organized recall campaign against BC Liberal cabinet minister Ida Chong in her Oak Bay-Gordon Head riding to add pressure to end the HST gets traction when it begins this week.
Grassroots anger at the HST has already driven Campbell to resign and his party to nosedive in popularity.

So, the question is, knowing the effectiveness of grassroots politics, why are we not returning to it more fully? Finding and supporting an Independent candidate rather than propping up the business shills posing as public servants, yet loyal to and waving the Party banner, is in our own best interest.

Can't we at least hope for ...

the NDP to somehow find what it needs to sweep the next election then, as with Obama, prove itself equally incompetent as the Liberals in 'creating jobs and wealth' (it hurts to even utter such rubbish), thus disillusioning ALL but the most credulous that the Party system can ever hope to represent the people first and foremost?

How Can A Voter Choose Bill?

Good article Bill. Yet one still wonders and shakes his or her head at BC politics. Both sides are in chaos. The recall campaign will most likely remove a few BC Liberals considering that they are mostly finished in BC for now at least. Then the party of my choice is also in "rough waters". Ms James finally got tough and talked tough, that was a good start but the voters need to learn more about what this party wants do if it wins power. No such action has been taken only chaos. The people of BC deserve better, especially for how much this entire mess is gonna cost us. Corruption, Lies, increased poverty, higher fees and taxes and less government services and programs that many people need and in most places often these things are considersd basics and rights to life etc. The BC Liberals need to be defeated and put into oppostion, ok, most people agree with that, Is anyone in the NDP even listening?.

Canary

"If we have to separate into selective parties that represent factions of the communities...maybe that's a good thing! Then we will hopefully see a better proportional representation of the electorate and a more honest and open discussion among the people. Then those who represent us in government will have to compromise among themselves to truly represent the taxpayers,the voters.
" Canary

They have either all missed or don't want to speak to, what I think is a very interesting observation you have made, Canary. What is, is not working. It is time to begin to move away from it. And it just may be that it will have to occur more or less in the way you describe, to get underway.

And it is folks in the NDP, and other parities I am sure, like Frank, and of recent in this particular discussion, Vivianleadoubt, who take effective positions regarding "compromise", upon which they place so much excessive value at the expense of principledness, that it must always occur as a consequence of the Left moving Right, and/or shutting up, and never, friggin' never, the other way. (Which I have observed over a very long time.)

It is time for the Left and other "serious" progressives to say, "Shag this bullshit!". This is not "compromise" at all, but endless "selling out" to the Right... such as is what has really brought the NDP to here, and is the real source of the quarrelling going on.

Anyway Canary, they may all have missed your comment, but I did not. :-)

An interesting discussion to do a quick read on, before my heading out the door. Fun even.

Ta, ta.

Shepsil - you said

"The Provincial Council vote on Saturday was 84% in support of Carole and coincidentally that is the same percentage that Carole has received when our fundraisers call across the province."

Can I take your statement to mean that we are out of debt then, from the election, and we have a good war chest built up for the next one? Because that should be the result when a leader is so popular.

Shepsil

"Members were 84% in support of leader before the vote!"

Thanks for that. From the declining membership where most have already left and leaving the 84% behind, this is very conclusive? I like to start my day with a bit of comedy.

misunderstood, again, sigh!

I would never be accused of moving right, I think, Jerry Munro. As I have said repeatedly, who leads the NDP, or the 'new left', or the Liberals, or any other party, is a matter of indifference to me. What is crucial, I believe, is that all these well-fed, well-housed, and well-positioned people (as I said in another thread) GET OFF THEIR ASSES and help to solve the crises in front of our very eyes. Do you think it is possible they just don't see these things?

I think this 'manufactured crisis' serves to distract from such things that the homeless are turning up in hospitals, and if rumour is correct, a few outright deaths. That of course is not the only issue facing our communities, but it is the one that cuts to the chase quickest. The party system is broken because the voters no longer believe in it, and the fix is not a new leader - nor a new party. But I would wager if all those politicos simply walked out and volunteered in their communities for a few months, they might begin to see the extent of the crises and how empty their words seem when the issue is survival. There are thousands of homeless in the province, thousands at risk of homelessness, thousands without jobs, thousands lining up at food banks...and there are thousands whose survival is a little more sure, perhaps, but who struggle mightily to get through each day. Those that aren't struggling have the luxury of contemplating the environmental catastrophes that promise to wreak havoc and crisis in the life of every citizen...

What will it take to convince politicians - or citizens - that whatever imperfect structures and people we have to work with, that now is the time to solve these crises?

does shepsil mean,

does shepsil mean, 'a person with their head in the sand?'
my goodness! everyone is out of step except my son johnny.
according to shepsil, fundraising is not a problem.
if prov council continues with this type of denial, they can do without my contributions, both financial and during the campaign.

coyote

"And it is folks in the NDP, and other parities I am sure, like Frank, who take effective positions regarding "compromise", upon which they place so much excessive value at the expense of principledness, that it must always occur as a consequence of the Left moving Right, and/or shutting up, and never, friggin' never, the other way."

No one is asking you personally to move to the Right. You can remain as left-wing as you wish. The point is how left-wing are you when you'd rather see 1 in 4 kids grow up in poverty that compromise with centrists?

I would say not very.

If you're as left-wing as you claim then you would be willing to compromise in order to help people.

Demanding that everyone else should move Left is like me wishing the Fraser River would flow the other way. Its just not going to happen given the current environment.

If poverty and homelessness and falling wages and unemployment and under-employment and healthcare and education are issues you would like to see some progress made on and compromise is the only way to do that then any true left-winger would do so.

A refusal to compromise might as well be a vote for Campbell because they both mean the same thing in the end.

VivianLea:

This isn't a manufactured crisis - I'm surprised, why do you think that?

This is democracy in action.

Those twelve MLA's are representing their constituents rather than the inner circle of their party. That is to be commended, at least in my books.

If we changed the system merely by volunteering, the proof would be in the pudding - and it isn't. We have more and more volunteers, more and more foodbanks in our communities every year and more and more need for them, precisely because the system is failing ....and also because the neo-cons would love it if the social infra-structure they are trying to kill could be handled by volunteers alone - all the more money left for them to steal from the public purse.

I'm not saying volunteer work is not valuable or appreciated - only like "the charity" of the rich, it is not a solution. Social services and infra-structure are what we pay taxes for.

We are deserving of them....and we should not have to depend on either the changing tides of the generosity of others or on mere whim.

After all, it is we, the people who paid through our taxes for those services, both for the good of others and for ourselves.

The problem is the pirates that have fudged the books, legislated the grand theft of the publc purse...and thus, get there first, stealing more and more away from public funding, away from the common good, and away from those who are in great need of those services.

VivianLea Doubt

And now I heard there are food banks at the universities??

And lynn: doesn't VLD mean the manufactured crisis is the poor and dispossessed, and not the twists and turns among political parties?

RickW.

I think we'll have to let VivianLea clarify it...but from my reading of it, she is saying the 'manufactured crisis' is being used as a distraction from those very issues:

Quote:

"I think this 'manufactured crisis' serves to distract from such things that the homeless are turning up in hospitals, and if rumour is correct, a few outright deaths."

I disagree, I think there is a very real crisis.....

And the actions of the dissenting are reflecting their constituents' growing impatience that the crisis be addressed - starting with an Opposition that will effectively articulate that crisis, and for once, voice it loudly enough for all to hear.

yes, there are food banks at the universities...

and volunteering is not what I had in mind, though I could pick out a few politicos I would like to send into a food bank line-up. If I believed that the dissenting politicians were representing their constituents, I would have less of a problem. Of course, they are representing their riding executive, I have no doubt...I will reserve judgement as to whether an executive truly represents a constituency. If you could point out any party executives that include the homeless, the welfare recipients, the low-income earners (on and on, ad infinitum), I would reconsider.

What I am on about here, without a doubt, is that we must begin real change. This is a complex and convoluted thing, and we have a great deal of work...I assert that it begins with each individual. When is any population (group/party) going to be homogenous enough to achieve perfect agreement? But more importantly, why is the voting public so disillusioned with politicians? Why are they considered irrelevant at best, and hated, at worst?
I can only offer up my opinion: that while we attempt to reconfigure the 'system', there are crises to be resolved.

Is there actually a crisis?

I'm not sure there really is one; with respect to the NDP I mean.

I suspect the term 'crisis' is a bit of a manufactured thing though and, to my way of thinking, Ian Reid has about the clearest exposition of what's going on that's available right now.

Anyway, have a look and let me know what you think.

http://tinyurl.com/2flsmrg

@ Mr. Tielman

Your statement quoted;

“I am merely stating the obvious - that the NDP is facing a crisis that must be democratically resolved in a way that is seen as fair by both party members and NDP MLAs - and soon.”

True to a point;

The voting public will decide if the present leader is to become the Premier of BC; NDP party members and NDP MLA’s notwithstanding.

canary ~ "If we have to

canary ~ "If we have to separate into selective parties that represent factions of the communities...maybe that's a good thing! Then we will hopefully see a better proportional representation of the electorate and a more honest and open discussion among the people. Then those who represent us in government will have to compromise among themselves to truly represent the taxpayers,the voters."

We do not need to divide into separate parties, for we already have distinct electoral districts. And this has been my point -- every district having its own Independent representative, working within other Independent MLAs reaching consensus on matters through direct democracy, all outside of any Party force.

This need is almost blindingly obvious if one cares to honestly inspect the workings of corporate Party politics. District representation, to work at all, must represent the District voters. Only an Independent can do that in the political system we have in place.

lynn ~ "Those twelve MLA's are representing their constituents rather than the inner circle of their party. That is to be commended, at least in my books."

Agreed. Now it is time to intellectually take the next step and demand it from all District representatives, which means the death of the Party system. This is not offered as a democratic panacea, but as the clear step by the people toward an accountable democratic existence.

The point I was addressing

The point I was addressing to Bill, is that the NDP by choosing to have Carole as leader they now have lost control over their own destiny. If she can’t make top dog next run, she is gone as leader. Like I stated yesterday on the Shreck thread it does not matter if the NDP party members and the NDP MLA’s vote 100% in favour of her leadership; this is a moot point now. Hey I have never voted NDP in my life but here is another one let’s make it 101%....no problem just for the arguments sake ok?

Won’t make a bit of difference to the situation at hand, the BC voters have already decided; the perception is now every time one sees Carole they equate her with the inability to unseat Campbell and his minions. Rightly or wrongly she is inextricably linked to this period of Liberal shenanigans.

So her job will be decided by the voting public of BC; really already has, twice.
Regarding your sentiments on party politics I have shared similar views of that debacle for the last 20 years or more. Yes Bill is too close to the situation, I would agree with this.

Cheers,