Tieleman responds

A few early responses - on Driftwood's "stupid game show" comments - front page coverage in both newspapers, tons of TV coverage - that's what the goal was. Using a popular TV reality show that everyone knows is simply a way of communicating the concept - the BC Liberals response shows it got under their thin skin.

As to moving now when the "iron's hot" - what do you suggest?

Recall can't start until November 15, when applications can go to Elections BC for approval. Recall campaigns over Christmas? It's tough enough under the rules already.

I also note that the Province and Victoria Times-Colonist both published editorials today calling for a much quicker referendum vote on the HST - pressure is mounting thanks to Fight HST.

The Warbler complains that I: "fail to point out that the HST only impact sales of NEWLY constructed condos/homes. Am I wrong on this?"

Yes you are. Re-read this part of my column: "Who in their right mind would buy a newly built home and pay seven per cent more tax on every dollar over the $525,000 exemption when the HST could be gone in a year?" Can't be much clearer.

"If you're playing a poker game and you look around the table an

I'll say it again...the sooner we begin the recall the better for the people of this province...another full term in office will surely (metaphorically speaking) kill us all ...

Why does Campbell want another year?

That is an interesting question. Maybe he thinks he can scam the people again with the help of his friends in the media and Hochstein and Winters? Maybe he wants to sell off more of BC and he has promises to keep, like to some big corporation an deals to make? Maybe he has promised Alcan they can go ahead with Kemano II and all this will be jeopardized because any new leader won't risk their political career? Watch for the big scam to come. Why else would he hang around with his reputation in tatters? My goodness he's more unpopular than any previous premier of B.C..

@ Bill Tieleman

I think you're doing fine - I do wish someone would talk to Carole James though. It isn't just new condo sales that will suffer - or, as Carole puts it - just investors - it will be the whole economy. The knock-on effect will be considerable: from a homeowner contemplating renovations to a wholesaler thinking of re-roofing a warehouse.

Anybody with any sense will put off discretionary purchases (especially those with a large labour component) until the tax is gone.

I did notice that Vanderzalm is becoming a bit of a lightning rod and the pundits are starting to call his 'Survivor' analogy irresponsible...

@ Alive. Seriously? That

@ Alive. Seriously? That comment offends me because I think a majority of us have had enough.

Shy of going out into the streets and causing total mayham...what are some REAL options. How do we or I go about getting the recall started. I see a lot of wind about why, what and the nerve of but not enough start with this. Im asking for some help.

No disrespect to anyone here but money talks and BS runs a marathon. I believe we can make change. It is unfortunate though we have Canadians who would rather sit on the sidelines. Every team needs those I guess so the bench doesnt tip.

The more we sit here and discuss what we could do instead of what we should do the further this mismanagement continues. I would go on record as saying I have NO confidence in gov to lead this country. As a citizen of CANADA. What are my options. Or is this a communist state now? Offer some real suggestions as I would gladly start with something.

hakaakah

Are you suggesting that if people stopped taking part in political discussions here, on the media forums and on blogs that BC and Canada would be better off?

hakaakah

If we were not surrounded by fools, then Gordo and Harpo would never have gotten elected!
I stand by my estimate that about 85% of the voters are stupid and every election bears that out.
I did offer a constructive suggestion by the way: start a revolution!
Every few generations someone has to stir the pot, because whoever is in power has become corrupted by that time; now is such a time, and democracy has no solution, only raw citizens protest counts.
Perhaps Van der Zalm aims to be the charasmatic leader who eventually declares that there is no democratic way that works? ---- so go to the streets folks?
Hang a few scoundrels and scare the rest!

@ Frank. Not at all. It was

@ Frank. Not at all.
It was the very articles here and the feedback that lead to my fantastic voyage into the realization or better understanding that renewables are a joke and the TAR SANDS are being rammed down our throats for no other reason then self gain.
Moving on.
I wold like to believe however that with an audience..as we have here. Insight into the inner workings or insanities of man and method should also include healthy discussion on solution.

Here is the perfect forum for all kinds personalities and beliefs to find common ground or dare I say common good and guide that wisdom or insanity into ACTION.
I am a man that struggles with the status quo as its obvious its not for the GREATER good. I would like to think that I am contributing my part towards some greater good. Thats a bit grey these days.
No that we have had 700,000 sign against this. Whaaats next? I dont think I want to wait till next year as this effects me yesterday. My family as well.

So do I just write a letter to my MLA and say I want a recall? Sign it and wait for a response? Or is it better served on Friday when we all send one?

@ Frank. Not at all. It was

@ Frank. Not at all.
It was the very articles here and the feedback that lead to my fantastic voyage into the realization or better understanding that renewables are a joke and the TAR SANDS are being rammed down our throats for no other reason then self gain.
Moving on.
I wold like to believe however that with an audience..as we have here. Insight into the inner workings or insanities of man and method should also include healthy discussion on solution.

Here is the perfect forum for all kinds personalities and beliefs to find common ground or dare I say common good and guide that wisdom or insanity into ACTION.
I am a man that struggles with the status quo as its obvious its not for the GREATER good. I would like to think that I am contributing my part towards some greater good. Thats a bit grey these days.
No that we have had 700,000 sign against this. Whaaats next? I dont think I want to wait till next year as this effects me yesterday. My family as well.

So do I just write a letter to my MLA and say I want a recall? Sign it and wait for a response? Or is it better served on Friday when we all send one?

About making serious tea...

But you see, hakaakah, the only "realistic" option really, is to take to the streets and create mayhem. (And to strike fear into the heart of the ruling class.) I don't really think it is going to happen. like Alive, because there is a strange "disconnect" in the land, and all those who "could" lead it are themselves disengaged in their own way, as in "hiding", as a result of their own fear mode. Which still does not change the only realistic option here.

And until there is a preparedness to take to the streets, and "threaten" the legislature, driving out the government, there is only this current pathetic "playing out" of the game already in play. (The old Socred Guard attempting to re-set themselves up as "the only realistic alternative" to the Liberals (Right Alliance). And that is by creating a new "centre" for the "Right" to rally around. While Carole and Company dither, as their Rome burns.)

The NDP and the trade union movement are paralysed and dysfunctional as a consequence of their own fears. (Plus, they are themselves too invested into The System.) Hence, there is only the "realistic" negativism of such as Alive and myself... until or unless something significantly changes here, that is not now apparent.

BUT, in my long term view, which is still okay (even though I'm ageing fast)... because it means that social, political and economic affairs in the province, and the country, are going to continue to deteriorate. It's like the proverbial watching for water to boil, degree by painstaking degree, which is never going to pass that qualitative threshold where it finally comes to the boil... until it invariably finally does, of course.

Which is about where we are. Waiting for the fucking water to boil, so we can make some serious tea.

A damn shocking story!

Gordon Campbell must resign in disgrace today over this revelation!

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Government+still+hook+million+Rail+sale+corruption+trial+told/3551050/story.html

No sugar in mine. I'm sweet

No sugar in mine. I'm sweet enough.
So...seriously..whats the next step? How does the recall begin? A piece on that would be welcomed.
Thanks Bill.

Sugar...

"No sugar in mine. I'm sweet enough." Hakaakah.

Which I don't doubt at all. :-)

I can only think of two reasons for this

We keep saying how bad this behaviour is, how we elected them, and they keep screwing us and looting our lives and all. And then try to figure out what we can do about it.

But we still don't really know why they do it, so we're hampered in our ability to devise an effective strategy. Taken all in all, unless there is some big alien conspiracy nobody has yet uncovered, there are limited possiblities;

-The well documented contempt all grifters feel for "marks'. No real con man would feel able to let a mark win. Ever.

Marks are so stupid as to be a different species. Or so the player believes. The feeling is that anybody stupid enough to believe the con in the first place is stupid enough to forget they were taken promptly enough to be taken again, and soon. Waiting a whole year for the marks to forget how they were taken seems almost timid, for them.

-The other possibility is they took a lot of money from people they fear, and so must deliver or face the consequences, even if they're exposed. These traditionally involve broken legs or kidnapped family members. Or cement overshoes for taking long walks on short piers.

Maybe we could identify the criminals and bring charges. At least that would break up the con. Then we could start a recovery of the proceeds of crime action to get back however much of the loot could be located.

The recall won't do it, it's not quick enough. And whenever a new election comes, it's unlikely to bring a review of the changes to the laws that have been such a big part of the long con we have here.

I suggest we start looking at the $80,000 transferred to the feds at the time of the leg raids. If we could identify the source and the recipient of that money, we would at least have a thread to follow.

toobad

It really bears repeating. $900 million in tax trite offs after paying $1 billion. So BC Rail was sold for $100 million? Wow. Damn shocking!

For more on the $900....

Million dollar tax indemnity read this.....It explains the whole "Mock BC Rail Trial"

End the trial....Lets go to a public inquiry into the BC Rail GIVEAWAY...

As we end up with zero dollars for our railway!

oops....

Forgot to leave the link.....

http://powellriverpersuader.blogspot.com/2010/09/gordon-campbell-plays-wag-dog.html

GENERAL STIKE?

THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN AN OPTION 20 YEARS AGO BUT NOT NOW. Ask Ken Georgetti why it cant be done and he will have many reasons. The main reason, that won't be admitted is that the unions in this province and country have been "spayed" to insure that they cannot breed rebellion against the status quo.

I know! Lets have a "D" Day For democracy. A day when you phone in well because you feel better about yourself than the company you work for. Maybe you could forgo that "over priced" coffee you usually buy for that one day. Or maybe you could just talk to one friend, associate or family member about how important democracy is to the survival of our future and our childrens future. "D" day Dec. 10, 2010, lets not "shop", Lets not "work", lets not "support the arrogant, political masters that have assumed much more power than "we the people" ever intended to give them.

Toobad

"A damn shocking story!" Evidently not quite shocking enough to "The Province" to be put on the front page where it should have been. I guess the more things change, the more they stay the same....

Observation

While everyone has been focused on the HST and all the maneuvers by Vander Zalm and Campbell, the BC Liberals have snuck in a couple of disturbing things.

First of all they have neutered Elections BC by unilaterally installing Craig James as acting CEO. He has already proven that he is willing to please Gordo & Co. by stalling the presentation of the FightHST initiative to the standing committee. Next, he has theoretically taken it upon himself to restructure Elections BC by firing a person, Linda Johnson, who has been employed there for 28 years and was second in command. It is not a stretch to believe that the BC Liberal Party is now in full control of Elections BC and use whatever tricks they can come up with to screw with the referendum and possibly recall.

The other travesty is the new penalties imposed for speeding and driving under the influence of alcohol. Whether the limits are fair or not is not the issue. It is the fact that a police officer is now judge, jury and executioner. To me this has created a police state regarding these issues and what will be the next item to bypass the courts.

Ultimately the HST issue will be resolved one way or the other, but will Elections BC ever again be independent and non-partisan, and will our legal rights still be intact going forward?

A Tract on Monetary Reform

_______________________________

Our economy is slowly dying, it is kept alive artificially. No one is proposing a solution because no one has the slightest idea of why it is happening and many have vested interest in the present system. However an objective observation of the phenomenon can help us understand it and provide us with an innovative solution. Of course we can't solve the problem with the tools that brought us there in the first place and we need a new ideology.

_______________________________

- Do you feel that your ideology pushed you to make decisions that you wish you had not made?

- Well, remember that what an ideology is, is a conceptual framework with the way people deal with reality. Everyone has one. You have to -- to exist, you need an ideology. The question is whether it is accurate or not. And what I'm saying to you is, yes, I found a flaw. I don't know how significant or permanent it is, but I've been very distressed by that fact.

- You found a flaw in the reality...(!!!???)

- Flaw in the model that I perceived is the critical functioning structure that defines how the world works, so to speak.

- In other words, you found that your view of the world, your ideology, was not right, it was not working?

- That is -- precisely. No, that's precisely the reason I was shocked, because I had been going for 40 years or more with very considerable evidence that it was working exceptionally well.

_______________________________

An Innovative Credit Free, Free Market, Post Crash Economy

A Tract on Monetary Reform

_______________________________

Driftwood, You say "We

Driftwood,

You say "We could have a new, honest and responsible government by Christmas."

Surely you jest? I hate to be the one to dash your innocence, but unicorns, fairies and honest politicians? Sorry.

P.S. And Santa won't be arriving on Christmas Eve either.

Bill

You say what wonderful coverage we got from the game show idea?
You already had the coverage. How much more coverage would you have had if you had started the recall campaign a few days ago and targeted enough ridings to defeat the government. It would have been huge! Otherwise what was all that 'recall in the fall' about? Oh, just rhetoric.
I hope at least some ridings go ahead on their own and get it done. Because Vander Zalm has no intention of defeating this government. What he wants to do is start a limited recall campaign on Jan 1 - targeting just 3 MLAs - meanwhile milking it for all the publicity he can for umm... what was the name of that right wing party? The Tea Party? Sorry, just kidding, it's called BC First. Which is odd becasue they don't have a snowball's chance of coming in first. The NDP does though. And Carol James, while not flashy or confrontational, would almost certainly provide us with sane and responsible government. There will never be a better time than now.

Strategic strike on local economy

When I need my basic nessesities, I go to my corner store, I've been doing that for years. Now everything is more expensive and in the middle of last month I was broke. I live on a very low income, so i must find the cheapest deals out there to survive. I avoid shopping at this store now, and I only go there if i can, which is much less than before. I asked the owner, who i know well, how is his business doing? He looked at me with frustration and said "not good". I had to go to a food line for the first time in my life, and i saw people lined up around entire blocks to find food. How is this good for my local economy? How is this good for democracy? I sent Mr. Campbell an email and asked him to resign. I encourage anyone to do the same.

Bill Tieleman

"As to moving now when the "iron's hot" - what do you suggest?"
Glad you asked. I suggest you examine your data and the recent Angus Reid poll showing BCers hate the HST and don't much like the government. Then target the top twelve ridings where you have the best chance of success. I thought I heard you get on the radio and say, "Give yourself and your family an honest government for Christmas."
No, you can't start collecting names before November 15 but you could start campaigning on the internet (it isn't called the 'People's Media' for nothing)and passing out leaflets. Make the people aware that they can get rid of this oppressive (in the sense that they tax us out of our socks and give away our country to anyone who will contribute to them)government before Christmas. Have yourself a Merry Christmas and a prosperous New Year WITHOUT the HST OR THE LIARS WHO GAVE IT TO YOU!
Recall In The Fall!

One More Thing

If you put pressure on 12 liberal MLAs by targeting them for recall, and they start seeing polls predicting they will be gone by Christmas, THEY will put plenty of pressure on Campbell to change his mind on the HST.

What you and I paid to be robbed:

That potential $900 million indemnity agreement with CN is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to losses to the public incurred by the Great Train Robbery. Not only did we lose the train and the valuable services, employment, and profits it provided but the surrounding rail land giveaway became a real estate developer's dream. Add in the millions and millions in costs to mount this deal, including payments to real estate advisors ("someone" was thinking ahead).... all the legal expenses, payments to lobbyists wearing "many hats", ...to fairness (ha!ha!) advisors, to evaluation committees, for severance packages, for bonus packages paid to ensure "a done deal" before the sale even became a done deal etc. etc. etc.

Even after BC Rail was forcibly withered down into an empty shell, its president was still being being paid a more than handsome sum, along with numerous directors of the board of a no longer breathing railway. DOA. But still we, you and me, as citizens of this province, and the real owners of this public railway, paid for its "990 year sale" ( a shade off the ol' 1000 year Reich ploy...again, "someone" was thinking ahead) ...including hockey tickets, airplane tickets to Dubai, golf club memberships.......

Not to mention the massive public legal costs of this trial, a trial that has been allowed to drag on year after year, and is still lurching from one day to the next, stop, start, stop, start, six years after the raid on the legislature. With a new judge, parachuted in, who turns up "fashionably" late for court....and who doesn't seem to mind that all the witnesses so far have developed strikingly similar cases of amnesia.

And those are just some of the costs we know about, largely retrieved through the hard work of citizen journalists and bloggers who continue to follow this trial while the MSM News for Dummies continues to yawn......

(btw Excellent observations above, crankypants.)

Read more about this at BC Mary's Place:

Despite not being in good health, a citizen journalist travels to the courtroom and discovers this...and more:

"I travelled to the courthouse today to find out that the doors
of Courtroom 54 were locked. No reasons posted."

http://bctrialofbasi-virk.blogspot.com/

Ideally

Ideally, an effort to recall at least one Liberal MLA should begin immediately after the November start date. The CAMPBELL REGIME will use all of their influence to defend the MLAs that were selected by the Zalm. Choose one or two that are vulnerable that he has not selected and I'll be there. When the potential damage to the current econonomic/political power base is exposed, the LiEberals will see the need to retrench.

Cranky Old Men... And Ideology

"btw Excellent observations above, crankypants." observecd Lynn.

I almost always agree with crankypants. Cranky old men know... that's all there is to it. :-)

If you ain't cranky, you are totally out of touch.

"Well, remember that what an ideology is, is a conceptual framework with the way people deal with reality. Everyone has one. You have to -- to exist, you need an ideology. The question is whether it is accurate or not." V07768198309

Without even knowing what your ideology is, you are correct on this one point, for sure, in my view. I will send it to that old ideological curmugeon friend of mine, Ed Deak, right away. 8-D lol

He's a cranky old man too, by the way.

Good Article Bill

It is Bill, well done. I recently saw a news item where Campbell was being interviewed, his party's new image makeover or spin will fail. No one believes or trusts this man or his government, his recent attempt to portray his government and himself to the people of this amazing province is shameful and distrurbing. This new "compassionate" or being more "sensitive" etc. It's 100% BS and nothing more, in fact it's repulsive and apparently in Campbell's government quite desperate. This guy will be gone no matter what he does, the BC Liberals need to have a referendum now and abide by the majority's wishes. By delaying or stalling this will of the people Campbell will only destroy himself but many MLA's as well. Recall is now a reality and it might succeed on the anger of the voters of this entire debalce, just a thought folks...

Welcome to the show, stver

stver ~ "Recall is about a government which won an election on the basis of the lies it told the public during that election. This is a dishonest, corrupt government that won power on the basis of lies and therefore deserves to be recalled."

ALL TOO painfully the hefty list of lies and crimes by the BC Liberal Party and/or Gordon Campbell predates the last election in 2009 and even the one in 2005. The crimes were worthy of incarceration, I believe, prior to the '09 election. Now we are upset??

People simply do not care or, if there is concern, it does not outway their overpowering ignorance when it comes to politics. And I do not say this entirely with malice, as I have allowed myself to be played by the BS too. The following is a post I made on another forum prior to the last provincial election:

My sentiments exactly. And for the exact same reasons.

This is the most important BC election in my lifetime. The almost irreparable harm ready to be unleashed on BC and its future by the Campbell corporatists is nothing short of scary.

Similarly, I made the mistake of voting once for Mulroney in the late 1980s on the Free Trade issue. I naively believed the rhetoric of the day that if it wasn't working out well for Canada or the US, either party could walk anytime in the first 10 years. I regret being so ignorant about the long-term ramifications of such agreements.

To all Canadians, especially those younger than myself, I apologize.

Ignorance of the critical issues won't happen again.

The thrust of my point is that if we hope to use the easy road of intermittent elections to gradually change the system in our favour, we MUST be as fully informed as possible before we cast our vote.

Now those who know me also know I think it is more likely we will continue to partake in the Inherent Evil of deception before we effect real, substantive change. Not until the general population evolves from our child-like, teleological intellect to one more mechanistic will we, in the main, have the mental make-up to desire much more than chains.

Wanna Bet?

As the people in BC are into a sure thing as betting on their futures isn't the game voters intended to play. BC residents put in a rooting, tooking gambler with promises of great abundance for the masses and accountable government sounded to good. As premier puts the people's dime on the line as premier borrows from residents futures leaving many without hope.
Increase house prices so banks and land developers make plenty of cash as banks send out notices to residents that the bank will be more than happy to lend home owners money they don't really have? To spend on home renovations as it is the lastest trend as Love it or List is the banks marketing their scruples away. And when the people have no money left for anything else as mortgages take all the cash and credit in key provinces then put in a tax and make the people pay for government's screws ups as over priced houses leaves no money for other foreign business says what about local business they just don't count. BC residents are up to their necks in debt and the HST has most feeling like they have been hung up side down so government can get at your spare change.

What do the people want in politician?

Usually people consider politicians good, when they are honest, not corrupt, make improvements for citizen's quality of life, and help generate money for the communities not the other way around.

What does big business want from a politican?
Usually big business consider politicians good, when they are dishonest, corrupt, and reduce the quality of life, and don't helped generate money for the communties and not the other way around.