Bill is your issue with

Bill is your issue with extending the HST to previously exempt sectors or with the concept of a value added tax itself?

"In theory, it's a good thing."

In theory, the carbon tax was a good thing. So David Suzuki and Andrew Weaver supported it, and helped get Campbell re-elected. But the stats show that this tax was ineffectual -- except for it's intended purpose, which was to get Campbell re-elected on a "green" platform.

And to Ronald Pagan, a value-added tax is a good thing, and yes, ultimately consumers DO pay all of the taxes in the end. But governments have long discarded the notion of dedicating taxes to specific areas, choosing instead to dump everyting into "general revenues" - the only pragmatic reason for this is to "mudify" the revenue trail.

So let's have a value-added tax - but let's also have dedicated taxes.

The petition may be non-binding....

but we're just getting started. Recall in the Fall!!

Taxpayers Federation and C of C

Well Bill they know which side their bread is buttered on. Obviously the Taxpayers Federation is or gets some of it's funding from the same companies or corporation's that support the HST. The Chair of the C of C just has a loose cannon mouthing off because he will obviously benefit from it.

If you really want to know why Bader and Winter are keeping quiet or openly supporting it, just follow the money. It will lead you directly to the people who will benefit. I'll bet dollars to doughnuts some of the money will directly benefit Bader and Winter.

Small business is the point

This tax benefits corporations by putting their competitors out of business. Another failed "enemy" opens up another retail location, allowing expansion and increased profits. Every time Harper's born again christian regime helps big business, the donations to the con-servatives increase. It's a win-win situation.

C'mon Bill, ya know that the

C'mon Bill, ya know that the BC Chamber of Commerce and the Taxpayers Federation are just fronts for corporations. The Vancouver Board of Trade is in the same league. They're all connected at the hip with the Fraser Institute.

Political suicide

Binding or not if you know anything about the politics of British Columbia you will note that Campbell has committed political suicide. Unfortunately, the alternatives are and NDP government in 2013 (majority), or the BC Conservatives (a real fringe group) getting some seats, the Liberals and the NDP getting some seats and the outcome is minority government. My personal preference is for people to wake up and look at the Green Party (not the Greens of yesteryear) as a viable intelligent center alternative that will create new small business opportunities from environmentally responsible business using sound economics. I plan to do my part to change the crazy shifts in governance in BC from wild left to right swings.

Removing all taxes from

Removing all taxes from corporations and transferring them on the public's shoulders, has been the advocacy of the PR agency by the name of the "prestigious conservative economic think tank" the Fraser Institute, forever.

And for the Campbell gang whatever the PR hacks of the FI are saying is holy scriptures.

Apart from the expected directorships.

Ed Deak.

BC Chamber and CTF

Van Isle has it right. In my area it is the same with the BC Chamber in favour and most small retailers opposed. In fact some of the canvassers for the Fight HST are from the business sector.

It will be interesting to see just how far Campbell will go and all the while alienating the electorate. The arrogance of the man knows no bounds.

What is absolutely baffling is the amount of nonsense that passes for reasoned arguments for the HST. I mean comments like "well thems the breaks" reveal a level of ignorance that defies explanation.

I sometimes try to reflect on the outcry that would have occurred if the NDP introduced this in the 90's. Imagine how well arguments like "them's the breaks" would have served. There would have been riots in the streets and the BC Chamber of Commerce would have announced that the socialists had taken over and all of them were destined for the gulags.

eating in/out

"And sure, now your restaurant bill will be a little higher. Classic example of equity. Urbane professionals who eat out more (and earn more) will pay more tax while lower income people who eat in more will pay less."

Is this actually the case? I'm not sure lower-income people eat out less and I'd like to see some statistics that bear this out. I do know that at the relative extremes, the very poor (homeless) have no cooking facilities and have to rely on prepared foods, while wealthier people have both the time and space to store and prepare home-cooked meals. As a recent BC Business article pointed out, cooking schools are doing a booming business in catering to upscale diners looking to recreate the gourmet experience at home as means of saving money. In reality the HST may be a classic example of inequity exacerbated by income, esp. since the higher up the income scale you go, the less impact any tax has on your overall financial situation. A rich person doesn't pay any more tax (percentage-wise) on take-out food than a poor person, so some people could argue that it's not that equitable at all.

In short... citation needed. :-)

A simple question

If the HST applies to most everything, how will it hurt businesses? After all, one's competitors are equally bound to charge it; one can't distinguish between a restaurant that charges it and one that doesn't....so how exactly will this hurt one business more than another?

I find it amusing that Tieleman cites A&W as a company at the forefront of this 'fight'...strange days, when labour activists rally under the banner of american fast food conglomerates. So much for principles: the enemy of my enemy is my friend, and expediency rules.

A final question: is health care 'free', or is there a chance that...ahem...it's paid for by...wait for it...taxes? Isn't the real question here 'what will the revenus be used for', instead of 'down with the tax'? The answer to the first might be legitimate grounds for opposition: the second is a slogan that, until now, has been the exclusive province of the nut-job right.

no democracy in BC Chamber

I doubt the BC Chamber of Commerce consulted with or polled *any* individual municipal Chamber of Commerce - they certainly didn't ask our little town's, which is 100% against the HST. All of its Directors have signed the petition.

Those who think value added taxes are the answer to funding services like health care, or who think that those of us against the HST just don't want to pay our share ought to read Linda McQuaig's "Behind Closed Doors - How the Rich Won Control of Canada's Tax System ... And Ended Up Richer" (Toronto: Penguin Books, 1987).

Or save yourself some time and sleepless nights by paying attention to what Ed Deak has to say.

The CTF Fraud

The Canadian Taxpayers Federation is no more representative of taxpayers in Canada than the BC Liberals are representative of liberal principles. It has a miniscule number of "supporters" (see website) and frequently takes policy positions that clash with public opinion.

Why an organization is allowed to claim that it "represents" certain people or organizations, when it clearly does not, is beyond me. Any business making similarly false claims would likely be hauled into court for fraud.

"The 'efficiency' of the HST

"The 'efficiency' of the HST doesn't come from reducing a few jobs in the government collecting the taxes, it comes from the efficient transfer of the tax burden from corporations and the wealthy to consumers. It also requires the absurdly naive belief that the money the corporations save will be passed on to consumers. "

Don't let the facts stand in the way of a good argument there:

" In brief, the results show that the pattern of relative price changes among broad consumer-expenditure categories was quite similar to the pattern of relative changes in taxes and business costs induced by the reform. Each 1 percent increase in costs induced by taxes leads to approximately a 1 percent increase (or sometimes a bit more) in the price paid by consumers.

Actually, overall consumer prices in the three HST (harmonized sales tax) provinces fell with the 1997 reform, although prices rose somewhat for purchases of shelter, clothing, and footwear, which would tend to make the reform in itself slightly regressive. The pattern of reform-induced tax changes would presumably be somewhat different if harmonization were extended to the remaining RST provinces, since their economic structures and current sales-tax systems differ to some extent from those that were replaced in the 1997 reform we examine here. Nonetheless, our principal result—that sales taxes are fully shifted forward (or even “overshifted”) in most sectors, so that the change in [End Page 86] statutory burdens that occurs when a province moves from an RST to a VAT would not result in large distributional effects—seems likely to be as valid today in provinces such as Ontario or British Columbia as the evidence we discuss here suggests that it was a decade ago in the three eastern HST provinces."

http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/canadian_public_policy/v035/35.1.smart.html

With respect to the tax's regressivity, that can be addressed through policy decisions on what to do with tax revenue. Insofar as the proportion of revenues dedicated to lower income people is larger than their tax receipts then we can safely deal with the slight regressivity.

Eitherway, continue on with the [SNIDE COMMENT DIRECTED AT ANOTHER COMMENTER REMOVED. PLEASE REFRAIN FROM PERSONAL COMMENTS. -MODERATOR.]
Well the data shows that that's the case, but don't let the facts get in the way of a good argument.

Restaurants

I agree with Camero409; just follow the money.
The BC Restaurant Association was front and center in supporting the BC Libs in the last election, which meant that they didn't give a fig about the lies and what Campbell had already done to the rest of us in the previous two terms.
Then it turned out that (heaven forbid) he'd shafted THEM. Their response was to immediately lobby like hell to get exempted. Didn't work, so they went public trying to get exempted. Didn't work, so now they're on to Plan C, which is to jump on the bandwagon with us.
But don't forget their first two responses, which was to say the tax brought in by their buddy was fine for the rest of us, just not for them.
The Restaurant Association hopefully has clean hands in the kitchen, but certainly doesn't in the world of politics.

All-informed capitalist mumbo jumbo?

I see toquer has swallowed the liberal line that HST revenue is for healthcare. Even the media didn't believe that and Hanson was laughed at for suggesting it. Then Pagan says that all the anti-HST stuff is just "ill-informed quasi-marxist mumbo jumbo. It's unconvincing, largely incoherent and so values-driven as to make it bereft of legitimate critique or concern." Well sir, if that is true then all those people lining up en mass to sign, know something you are not prepared to admit. Frankly Pagan, you sound just like John Winter with your theories about how the cost saving will just trickle down to the consumer. Just trust us!

We, business who have been on the gravy train since Campbell took office, want "more". We haven't passed any of it on before, costs have steadily increased, but now we will pass it on.

Yeah sure, pigs will fly first.

Bill....

Bill, why on God's green earth would any small business oppose the HST? It cuts their cost of doing business and simplifies administration work.

from a small chamber

It's true that in my small local Chamber of Commerce, there is not overwhelming support for the HST. Enough Chambers must have made it to BC Chamber of Commerce meetings to support their stand on the HST though (I can't afford to go to their next meeting and vote against it because its a $500 fee plus we don't have total consensus among our businesses).
I understand that most businesses think it's inevitable and we're going to be dealing with it ASAP and will be fined if we do it incorrectly. Putting the onus of collecting these taxes on already taxed small businesses is why the idea of making it slightly easier with the harmonization aspect is supported. I doubt many support the very high 12% it is set at, nor the burden it will place on our customers. But small business will be stuck figuring it out, paying accounts to explain it and then collecting and remitting it. And time is running out....

Ronald Pagan

You were here last year claiming that regressive taxes are good things too.

Governments don't smile for the cameras and claim they have the lowest corporate taxes and the lowest tax burden on high incomes for nothing, they do it because its true and the reason for that is because they've successfully shifted more of the burden of taxes onto the little guy.

VAT's are just a way of shifting the tax burden from higher incomes to lower incomes.

Instead of raising regressive taxes why not raise progressive taxes?

West Coast Gal...

The vast majority of small business are already collecting tax at a 12% rate, 5% GST and 7% PST. Actually changing over to the HST is very easy, all you have to do is set your GST rate software to 12% and eliminate your your PST account.

The remittance procedure is much easier as there is not longer a need to remit the PST. There will now be a single remission for the HST, which is exactly the same as as the GST has always been. It makes administration significantly easier.

Frank, 29 of the 30 OECD countries have a VAT system.

Addedum

And West Coast Gal, the HST benefits small business because any PST expense they had previously is now entered as an Input Tax Credit. The HST does not cost small business anything. It saves money for them as well as saving time.

Wilf

They're united in their resolve to tax low incomes so as to lessen the burden on the rich.

Its not rocket-science.

Wilf

Shouldn't you be telling small business how great the HST is and why they're idiots to oppose it rather than Tyee readers?

Frank...

I am not telling anyone what anything is great. I was explaining how the administration of HST works. The HST makes paperwork for business easier because it eliminates a calculation and remittance.

That is a fact, Frank.

Just Curious

Does this Taxpayer Federation stance have anything to do with Harper getting a new personal assistant last year from same?

Re: Addedum

Ah W Laurier, were it that simple! My small business never paid pst because when you charge pst, you were able to submit your pst number to your supplier and therefore exempt yourself from paying it, so we never did. And with harmonization, we now have to charge pst on all the services that previously weren't subject to pst. Confusing and complex I know but the upshot is, yes it will be easier to file one return, but I have to charge my customers 7% more overall without any extra deductions, because when you have staff, they don't charge you pst to deduct and we were previously exempt from the pst on supplies we purchased. I hope my customers will pay more, but suspect, like when the GST was introduced, that we will have to lower our prices and also be tempted by offers of cash, except for those businesses looking for the hst credit....

The HST

The HST sarifices fairness and equity for efficiency - it is a 'regressive' tax that places an additional burden on the poor and the middle class and caters - as do all right wing administrations - to corporations and high income earners, especially those who make their income from already tax-sheltered or protected sources.

Efficiency has nothing to do with it.

IT's not surprise

It really isn't a surprise that these people support the HST. Both the tax payers fed. and Chamber of Commerce are really serving the interests of the big business', not the small business who employ British Columbians. All Campbell has done for this province is shifted the tax burden from the higher income people to the lower income people through the Carbon tax (people pay more at the pumps while these taxes pay for more drilling of fossil fuels) and now the HST. He gave a nice gift to his supporters right when he won the election in 2001 of huge income tax breaks, then sold our collectively owned assets to pay for this. Not only have the lower income people made less money (no raise in min wage since 2001) but we had what we owned from the generation before sold.

And the people with money won't pay more for their big item purchases, they will buy their yachts from Oregon builders, where their is no tax, their cars from dealers in the states, where you can purchase them cheaper. Even electronics are being purchased in the states and shipped to Point Roberts and Blaine Washington to be picked up... the HST will make this even more lucrative.

The HST will make our province more competitive in resource extracting, but much less competitive in the value added industries. But large resource paying companies help people get elected with their money, while small business help people make some money.

Chambers

Chambers are composed of the small business people in the region, most who are too busy struggling to survive to attend meetings and lobby government. I doubt the BC Chamber did a proper poll as there's no way they'd have consensus from small business on the HST. Many of us directors have already signed the petition, but can't wait to switch over until it might get defeated....

hey Wilf

If you think the transition is easy, you haven't been talking to anyone in the building trades doing the transition billing:^) Our chamber is putting on a workshop with local accountants for our small businesses, and yes, there will be a table with the no petition there too....

BC Chamber does not represent small Chambers

If the BC Chamber consulted their member Chambers on this or any other issue, its position would be v different.

My guess is that people who say this will benefit small businesses either have no experience whatsoever in small business or don't live in the fragile hinterland economy, or both.

Sure, it might be less bookkeeping to make one remittance instead of two. But that's it for efficiency, and West Coast gal has already explained the shell game of input credits.

Those of us trying to eke out a living in the sticks know BS when it is fed to us. Some of us even remember the genesis of VATs in Canada with Mulroney's GST that came with the onset of "free trade".

The GST and the HST are part and parcel of the increasing concentration of wealth and decision making in the hands of the largest corporations, at the expense of citizens and civic society.

W/C Girl...

I administer GST/PST myself and I cannot see how elimation of a tax account and changing another could be that difficult. Could you please elaborate the problem the building trades are having?

W /C Girl

I see the source of your confusion. At the moment, you pay GST on your supplies at a rate of 5%. You will now pay at a rate of 12%.

Say for example, you pay $100 in HST for business supplies, and you collect $1000 from your customers. Just like with your GST return, any HST paid will be entered as an Input Tax Credit.

HST Collected---$1000
HST Paid ---$100
Net Remittance -$900

You no longer have to remit PST because as of July 1, the PST will no longer exist.

BC Chamber doesn't represent small business members..

I used to work in a small-town Chamber and I can tell you the main reason local businesses joined was to be able to access the dental/extended health benefit plan for their families and cheaper Visa/MC rates available only to members of Chambers who paid to be members of the BC Chamber. Certainly not because the BC Chamber advocates things like the HST. I also attended a couple of those BC Chamber meetings and a lot of the members from smaller Chambers were new every year; hadn't a clue what was going on and raised their hands based on what the more slick Chamber members were doing; not on knowing what was going on.

Group Medical...

Things like extended medical and credit card commissions are cheaper if you are part of a larger group, such as a Chamber of Commerce.

different remittance rates

Not so simple, W Laurier, if one is using the so-called "simple method" of calculating GST remittances and which will probably roll over into parallel formulas for HST.

There are different rates for different kinds of businesses, services, and products. Under these formulas, one does not get back all the GST one pays out, just a portion of it.

I worked in a bakery when the GST came in. We had to charge tax on a raisin bun, but not on a cheese bun; no tax on 6 or more; tax on drinks with bubbles, none on those without. Tax on hot sausage rolls, none on frozen ones. Who made up this arcane nonsense?!

Regardless, the six or more rule discriminates against singles and seniors, as it's harder to consume enough to avoid paying GST, unless they have a giant freezer. But then, fresh baked goods are nicer, eh?

GST, HST = regressive.

strange friends

Of course the business community likes the tax. They get their money back for business and that money can be invested for their person future while the ordinary folks get the odd little rebate for the thousands they pay in a consumer tax. I have taken to
calling it the Hemroid Sales Tax. You can imagine why

Hey!

Whatever happened to the right-wing notion that we shouldn't tax things we want more of? They used to believe that taxing consumption was bad for consumption (and consumers), not any more apparently.

consumer confidence

Add the HST to the the mix and people of BC did a post Olympics flip flop of Olympic proportions. Ah, my aching head... must'a been one hell of a party, but we have the devil and his BC Liberal alcolytes to pay now. Further, I find it ludicrous that the druck driving penalties are increased under this drunken Campbell regime.

http://www.vancouversun.com/business/leads+Canadian+consumer+confidence+plunges+April/2957114/story.html

Consumer Confidence Indeed!

If you add the fact of rising interest rates, you are looking at a major hit to the artificial, debt-fueled consumer confidence bubble. If you were living strictly off of cash, do you think you could afford an extra $1000/year for the government? One might wonder what they were spending it on!

Let's be real here: a tax is a tax is a tax. Whatever the benefits flaunted by its proponents, someone has to pay the HST. Will Encana cut me a cheque now that I'm paying extra on my God damned souvlaki? I mean, hey, they must be sooo grateful with their non-existent royalties and lowest corporate tax rates in the developed world. Maybe they can hook me up a bit, huh?

Whatever the proponents of this tax think, their banking on British Columbian apathy has ended. Step one is the initiative. If the Liberal MLAs ignore it and side with Gordon Campbell against their electors, then we go to stage two: recall. Recall will succeed, and if the political force that inherits the government screws up and tries to keep the tax grab, then they're out too.

Working on the Fight HST campaign, I've had the pleasure of working with NDPers, BC Liberal voters, Conservative Partiers, Refederationists, and many more pragmatists who could go either way, but lately haven't bothered - now they work day in and out. Everyone is motivated, and the stats tell the story of a snowballing effort. This is British Columbia, and we are pissed!

Anyways, shameless plug time. Like Bill said, hit up the Vancouver Art Gallery on May 1st to sign, or check www.fighthst.com and click "KNOWN SIGNING LOCATIONS TO DATE **NEW**" on the left. The locations have been multiplying so fast, I haven't been able to print up posters to plaster my neighborhood with, I keep updating!

Consumption Taxes

are good - as long as they are applied to "goods" and not to "labour." Goods get consumed, used up, worn out, and disposed; an auto mechanic may consume sparkplugs, but his ability to repair your car remains, and an accountant may use up a treeful of pencils but he can add and subtract forever.

Consumption taxes should not be applied at the
"retail" level, but at the "wholesale" level which
is the last time goods move in bulk. Much more efficient than forcing them onto individual shoulders in retail.

Finally, fair consumption taxation would recognize the obvious difference between "milk and cookies," "beer and pretzels," and "champagne and caviar." Or a Chevvy, a Cadillac, and a Testarossa. How about kid's sneakers, sensible workboots, and Gucci loafers?

There'nothing there to stop a millionaire from driving a Chev, or a day labourer from saving up to buy himself a Caddy.

Consumption taxes are regressive

Because they impinge more significantly on lower income people than they do on people with higher incomes.

That's the reason for income taxes - they are graduated and those with higher incomes pay a larger proportion of their income.

The reason government tax revenues are falling is not because the tax system is failing but because it has had its effect diluted by special deals, tax credits and rates which favour the rich.

Therefore tax revenues go down and the stupid government decides to opt for more consumption taxes.

They see such taxes as efficient only because they're afraid to actually tax the people who have had an increasingly tax-free holiday on their incomes for the past 30 years.

This is not rocket science - it's simply the rich looking out for themselves. The solution to the revenue problem was spelled out by the Carter Commission in the 1960s – we just have never had a government with the necessary balls to adopt Carter’s recommendations.

ANGER

Ultimately I think the anger driving the anti-HST petition comes not from people being opposed to the tax itself but from the fact that Campbell & Co. lied to us all in so breathtaking a manner. If Campbell thought the HST is so great for the province then why didn't he put his money where his mouth is during the last election? He didn't because he knew it would blow his chances.

One last thought regarding protests, I've always thought restaurants should go on strike but only against Liberal MLAs. "I'm so sorry Mr. Hanson we are fully booked on that date." "Please inform Mr. Campbell how sorry we are to not be able to accommodate his anniversary." There's not enough MLA's that dropping their business would affect the bottom line but it would get the point across rather effectively.

@BDD63

That's a marvellous suggestion...maybe we could get the restaurant association to adopt it.

After all, they'd still have the 'training wage' fast food joints to eat at.

Not just strange friends - also some interesting enemies

Mind you, Justine Hunter ain't the most impartial of commentators.

Still, this is interesting:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/british-columbia/bcs-carole-taylor-joins-outcry-against-hst/article1547792/

Bill Tieleman tries for the last word

Thanks as always for a spirited discussion at The Tyee!

A few points - Value Added Taxes, like any sales taxes, are regressive. In other words, lower and middle income earners pay more of their overall income than upper income earners.

In contrast, income tax is progressive - the tax paid is commensurate to income earned - rich folks pay proportionately more than poor folks.

This isn't rocket science people - and especially Ronald Pagan.

BUT - Value Added Taxes in some social democratic countries are coupled with other progressive measures that mitigate or balance the negative impact of VATs. Not in BC, except for the very lowest income earners.

W Laurier simply doesn't get it. [I know - shocking to Tyee posters!] Small businesses like mine - another shocker - I am a business owner - will in July have to charge clients an extra 7% with the HST.

I already charge GST of 5% - the HST bumps it to 12%.

Non-business clients will be hurt by this and no one can possibly want to pay an extra 7% immediately even if they get it back later from the government.

My rent goes up 7% also, as do other costs - like restaurant food.

The extremely minor, if any, benefits of a simpler tax system can't possibly match the enormous negative impact of the HST on my business.

But even if that were true, the personal negative impact is huge.

My increased condo strata fees alone will cost me nearly $200 - I anticipate overall the HST will cost me well over $1,000 a year.

And for what - to subsidize Canfor and Alcan?

My advice - sign the Fight HST Initiative petition and get ready for recall in November.

Keep it up Bill

Nice work so far. The BC Liberals have lost the plot - and I don't think the electorate are going to let them get away with it so far.

Now, about that list of 44?