- Ms Kaye is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Mary Carlisle is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Prem Gill is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Nancy Flight is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Justin Everett is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- John Westover is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Nora Etches is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Edward Henderson is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Bharadwaj Chandramouli is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Dean Chatterson is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Marius Scurtescu is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Robert Parkes is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- James Murton is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Susan Doyle is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Vincent Strgar is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Helen Spiegelman is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Subir Guin is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Kimball Finigan is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Joanne Manley is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- David Leach is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
The Ugly Canadian
Nine ways we are ruining our once enviable reputation in the world.
Canadian delegates at 2007 Bali climate conference tried to warn Harper government.
It was really just a matter of time. The deep well of affection and respect around the world that Canada has drawn on for decades has been slowly poisoned by the Harper government (and the Liberals immediately before it) and the world is now taking serious notice. In the words of the famous Yes Men (who pulled off the brilliant hoax in Copenhagen): "We've always kind of grown up looking up to Canada... We've always thought that Canadians were such nice people and had much better policies than we did -- national health care and all that. And this is just a real disappointment for us, energy policy and learning that Canadians' carbon footprint per capita is higher than us." The Copenhagen conference may just be the final burden that brings us to critical mass, that qualitative leap where Canada is suddenly seen as a mean-spirited, disingenuous, and reactionary force in the family of nations.
Here are some of the most important image-busters in Canada's foreign policy bag of nasty tricks.
Climate change. This is obviously the biggie. More than any other issue, it is truly global and the Harper government's staggering arrogance makes Canada a rogue nation. No other country is so contemptuous of the interests of the planet. Not only does Stephen Harper think he is smarter than anyone in Canada, he thinks he is smarter than anyone, period. Harper's message: the rest of you are a pack of idiots. As a result, even the U.S. Energy Secretary Steven Chu refused to agree to a photo op with Environment Minister Jim Prentice.
Asbestos. It is the deadliest workplace substance in history, killing more workers in Canada than any other cause. And the deaths are increasing every year. Stephen Harper has explicitly declared himself the champion of Quebec asbestos and has dedicated himself to ensuring that asbestos is not declared a dangerous substance under the Rotterdam Convention. Thousands of workers in developing countries will die as a result. Canada challenged France's ban on asbestos through the WTO and lost, making the French environmental law one of the few to survive such a challenge and reinforcing the science declaring asbestos a class one carcinogen.
Terminator seeds. Terminator technology refers to seed genetically modified to produce sterile seeds that cannot be planted, forcing peasants around the world to purchase seeds every season. Globally, farmers would lose hundreds of millions of dollars in income. At the last meeting of the UN Convention on Biological Diversity in Curitiba, Brazil, Canada joined Australia and New Zealand in trying to undermine the protocol, calling for a "case by case risk assessment" of terminator seeds, with the intention of allowing the technology to be approved through existing legislation for genetically modified crops. Canada and its partners failed in their efforts but not for lack of trying. Not a single company in Canada has expressed an interest in pursuing this technology -- so Mr. Harper casually trashed Canada's reputation for purely ideological reasons.
GMO food. Canada is on the front line of forcing people around the world to eat genetically modified food. It is using a big stick against Europeans. A November 2006 World Trade Organization ruling found in favour of a complaint brought by the U.S., Canada and Argentina that the EU had violated WTO rules through "undue delays" in approving genetically modified organisms. This in spite of the fact that Europeans' rejection of such foods has been growing over the 15 years that polls have been conducted. Even previously supportive leaders like President Sarkozy of France and the EU's environment commissioner have changed their mind citing new science.
The Afghan occupation and renewed militarism. While Canada is not alone in the endless and brutal occupation of Afghanistan, it is seen around the world as one of the most aggressive supporters of U.S. policy in that country and the region. Canada's long reputation as an "honest broker" in global geo-politics, while never entirely accurate, has been severely damaged. We are now seen not as a peacekeeper or peacemaker but as a killer of "scumbags" and a warrior state fighting the absurd American "war on terror." While there are more peacekeepers active in the world than ever before, we have a government that ridicules the very thing that gave Canada its humanitarian reputation.
Israel. Related to the Afghan conflict, but also distinct from it, is Canada's policy of providing Israel with a complete carte blanche to do literally anything it wants, including committing war crimes against the people of Gaza. When Hamas was elected as the government of Gaza, Canada was the first to indicate it would not recognize it -- a travesty of our alleged support for democracy. The invasion of Lebanon, over the kidnapping of two Israeli soldiers, witnessed the deliberate and massive destruction of infrastructure and attacks on civilian targets -- a strategy intended to turn Lebanese civilians against Hezbollah. The ferocious bombing assault against a defenceless nation was described by Prime Minister Harper as a "measured response."
The betrayal of Africa. After decades of Canadian government commitment to African aid, the Harper government, virtually overnight and without even a pretense of an explanation, simply wrote Africa out of the picture. Dropped from the list of recipient countries were eight African nations, including Rwanda, still recovering from genocide. While conventional wisdom suggests that African aid has been ineffective, it was generally not true of Canadian programs, which really worked at helping lift people out of disease and poverty.
The Harper government has reconfigured aid to match Canada's "interests" -- a quintessentially American approach -- and has shifted aid to Latin America (Peru and Columbia, already the recipient of billions in aid from the U.S.) and the Caribbean.
Latin America. Just as many of the countries of Latin America are struggling successfully to overcome the dark period of neo-liberalism and IMF/World Bank restrictions on their national policies, Stephen Harper has expressed a "renewed" interest in the region. The problem is that renewed interest is as a junior partner in American "manifest destiny."
With the U.S. busy in Iraq and Afghanistan, Canada is offering a helping hand in re-establishing American and corporate dominance in the region. Hostile to Cuba and Venezuela, and friendly to the right-wing regime in Columbia, the Canadian government has also gone along with the U.S. as the only other member of the OAS to recognize the fraudulently elected government of Honduras despite that country's military coup, widespread human rights violations, media closures and its refusal to implement an agreement to reinstate (even briefly) the legitimate government of Manuel Zelaya. Thus Canada eagerly aligns itself against Latin American nationalism, the most powerful force on the continent, as its first real engagement in the region.
China and human rights. As a sop to his large anti-abortion constituency, Harper not only ignored China for the first four years of his government but openly snubbed the fastest growing world power. To suggest that this was because Harper objected to China's human rights record is laughable. If so, it was the most ineffective intervention ever made. While unstated, Harper was in reality giving a sign to his anti-abortion supporters that he would not cozy up to a country that performs more abortions than the rest of the world combined. His phony concern about human rights in China just underlines his embarrassing absence on the issue literally everywhere else: Gaza, Lebanon, Burma, Honduras, Afghan detainees, the Sudan, etc.
There is hardly a region in the world where Canada has not exchanged its previous moderate, middle power role for one of aggressive, "interests-based" policies, joined at the hip with the terminally unpopular U.S. One way or the other the Harper regime, in just four short years, has damaged Canada's relationships with the EU, the Muslim world, the Middle East, Africa, Latin America and China.
Canada's ugly new face
It is difficult to assess the international impact of each of these examples. Canada rarely gets covered in the news and most people in Europe or other countries, developed and developing, may know little about these issues. But eventually foreign policy reaches down to ordinary people around the world -- those moved by Israel's occupation of the West Bank, those who want safe food for their kids, those aware of the appalling working conditions of workers in developing nations like India, the millions who are opposed to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and the hundreds of millions watching the climate change conference in Copenhagen.
We have been able for a long time to rest on our laurels because these issues don't often overlap for most people. But eventually it starts to break through the long-standing positive image of Canada. And it breaks through with precisely the people who play a major role in determining the political culture and government policies of their respective countries. These are the people who are the most engaged in their democracies, who influence their governments, who engage with civil society organizations and the media.
In short, the people who know are those who are in positions to spread the word about a new global phenomenon: the ugly Canadian. ![[Tyee]](http://thetyee.cachefly.net/ui/img/ico_fishie.png){kind=small}
- BC snuffs out AirCare test program
- AFN national chief Shawn Atleo to launch re-election bid
- Citizens group releases video to fight undead Bill C-30
- Conservative MP says he might vote against budget, then 'clarifies' his position
- Genetically modified plants won't take root with councillors in Richmond, BC
- Hundreds at Vancouver rally to support Quebec students
- Could Fort Mac become an eco-tourist hotspot?
- Rick Hansen's Man in Motion anniversary tour concludes in Vancouver
- The Gem of Canadian Science that Harper Killed
- Who Mowed Down the Premier?
- Canada's Economy, Deconstructed (by a 12 year-old)
- Death in Remand: a Tyee Inquiry
- Now Is the Time to Talk up Big Ideas
- Sexism Tinges Criticism of Teachers' Job Action
- Bill C-38: the Environmental Destruction Act
- Death In Remand: 'A Gut Feeling'
- Bias in BC's Pesticide Decision? Follow the Bouncing Verbs
- The Ethics of Addiction Studies
- The Gem of Canadian Science that Harper Killed
- Sexism Tinges Criticism of Teachers' Job Action
- Now Is the Time to Talk up Big Ideas
- The Ethics of Addiction Studies
- Bill C-38: the Environmental Destruction Act
- Alberta Fills Pipes with Corrosive Denial
- Bias in BC's Pesticide Decision? Follow the Bouncing Verbs
- How Our Immune Systems Exaggerate Fear
- BC biotech company seeks approval for GM apple
- What's Behind BC's Doors?
- Should You Run from that Medical Test?
- 'The Dictator'
- Death in Remand: Stacked Deck
- 'Moonrise Kingdom'
- From Financial Advisor to Occupier
- Seven Goals to Build the Conservative 'Dream'
- How Our Immune Systems Exaggerate Fear
- Who Mowed Down the Premier?
- Does Simon Fraser University Need a Men's Centre?
- Now Is the Time to Talk up Big Ideas
- Double lung recipient dances on Ellen show
- ISS astronauts grab DragonX space capsule by the tail with Canada Arm
- Metro Vancouver gas prices peak at record levels
- Ottawa posts $9-billion deficit in March despite pledge to avoid spending spree
- BC phases out AirCare to focus on fighting bigger vehicle emissions
- Tsunami senors to be dropped into deep sea off of Vancouver Island
- Student groups file court challenge against Quebec protest law
- ...while on the streets, pirates and ninjas put aside mutual animosity to join student protests
73
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freebear
2 years ago
What do you expect with a
political demockery like Canada!
Our whole reason for being is to sell raw material to burn/refine; often to make/manipulate other mined materials from Canadal which all requires transportation; including shipping back the consumer goods for sale in Canada!
EastVanMan
2 years ago
You think it would be better with a majority government?
Canada needs to get its own ducks in a row before sending aid anywhere else.
kootenay
2 years ago
Nice Work Murray
Its taken decades for our illustrious politicians to destroy our unique, generous, humanitarian reputation
Unfortunately the value of such a reputation is beyond the intellectual grasp of most right wing politicians.
I don't think our politicians have a clue what they have pissed away, one thing for sure, it gone for good. To those Americans who immigrated north to escape the embarrassment of being governed by George Bush, welcome to mini America.
Skywalker
2 years ago
Another view
I think the world sees Canada as still butt kissing George W.. I know he is out of the game but the views George W. had on the environment (at least Cheney the puppet master's view) is the same view Harper holds. Harper is more interested in corporations dominating Canada economic and environmental policy than he is interested in the future well-being of the great mass of humanity. I can not imagine anything scarier than Harper with a majority.
We sure could use a leader that put Canada first not corporations first, not trickle-down economics first, just people first.
alive
2 years ago
We are doomed
The more I read about Canada, the more I like Cuba!
x4estworker
2 years ago
In Whose Eyes??
The Ugly Canadian? In whose eyes? Those of the anarchists and other flakes messing up the streets of Copenhagen?
The issues identified by Mr. Dobbin in his story are non issues to the vast majority of Canadians. How else do you explain why virtually none of these issues are significant politically?
The NDP, which is as close as it comes to identifying politically with these issues, can barely scrape together 20 percent of the vote on a good day.
What this really is all about is a dislike of the capitalist system. While most people will agree that the capitalist system has its flaws, it's infinitely better than the dark and creepy alternative that Mr. Dobbin and his lefty friends would have us live under.
Skywalker
2 years ago
x4estworker
Arevyou really sure that "virtually none of these issues are significant politically?" Is that why Campbell attached the word "carbon" in front of his tax grab? Was it because he didn't think cloaking it in enviro language would help him sell the bit of extortion? But you are probably right in your last paragraph except that it is not a choice between two extremes. Pure capitalism is just as oppressive to the vast majority as is the "dark and creepy alternative" you hold in your mind. Few people ever advocate that. There is a great distance between these two extremes. Medicare is a socialist concept so is E.I., workers comp. etc. We have come a long way from pure capitalism.
But it isn't even about a government which is an mix of ideas, it IS about ignoring the people. You don't exclude people from decisions which will effect them. This elitist form of government in which the corporate puppets elected (by a minority of the people I might add) believe they know best is getting a rough ride and it is damn well time.
Murray and his lefty friends have never advocated living under a despotic government at any place in the political spectrum. That is a figment of your status quo imagination if there even is such a thing.
Adam M
2 years ago
Canadians Not Ugly
Canadians are not ugly. They are fine, empathetic people.
Fine, empathetic people who have no attention span for government unless they have something to gain or lose RIGHT NOW.
If they don't have anything to gain or lose RIGHT NOW, then you better make sure there are no flies in the room when you start talking politics.
x4estworker
2 years ago
Skywalker
What you mean is not ignoring the people, but ignoring the people of the far left. And their ideas are far out of touch with the vast majority of Canadians, even to a moderate lefty like myself.
We have come a long way from pure capitalism, as you state. The differences between the mainstream right and left these days is largely subtle. The BC Liberals tried to be far right in its first term, and just about lost the next election. They now try to be a populist party. Mike Harcourt was elected largely because the business community trusted him not to be too left.
Issues in the story above such as a lack of Canadian government support for Hamas and GMO food are issues that only the loony left are interested in. All Murray Dobbin has proven with this article is how out of touch he is with the average person.
realisticman
2 years ago
Call your Travel Agent, Murray ...
... for a one-way ticket. Get out now man while you have the chance! Things are just getting worse and worse. Our poster 'alive' is ready to go too. Maybe you could both start something good, somewhere good too. I hear that land is reasonably priced in the Co-operative Republic of Guyana and it's right next door to the wonderful Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela. Why wait? There's only one life to live.
Frank
2 years ago
The Alberta Advantage
Remember how when the NDP was in power we used to hear how everyone was packing up and moving to Alberta?
Apparently a few of you stayed put.
Or how about that big "brain drain" to the US we used to hear about?
Sadly, it didn't happen either.
snert
2 years ago
Just where does the problem lie?
Canada - 16.7 tonnes of CO2 /capita
- 53.44 tonnes of CO2 /sq k
Denmark - 9.9 tonnes of CO2 /capita
- 1266.21 tonnes of CO2 /sq k
Just where does the problem lie?
Tonnes per capita X population density /sq k = tonnes / sq k
Using 2002 figures and country links from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_CO2_emissions_per_capita
Janie Jones
2 years ago
Direct Democracy
Funny that Frank, after years of wondering how a native could even think of leaving BC, I am beginning to think I might just end up in exile from my own land. Alberta? Maybe. Guyana? Could be good. Russia? Much better. It's still the last frontier out there.
I have learned by participating in forums and boards that you can completely agree with someone on one subject and completely disagree on others.
When I read Dobbins list above, many of them I would support 100% but on at least one, the lead one, in fact, I obviously diverge. And the oft repeated "kidnapped" lie when it was widely reported in foreign media that the Israelis were in Lebanon when they were arrested by the Lebanese police but I digress.
No single party represents a unified version of how I see the world and this is why I have so much trouble in the election booth. I'm sure that many have the same problem.
Maybe it's the party political system. Representational democracy has had its day. It's time to go to direct demoncracy. We have the technology.
Instead of just commenting on the issues of the day we could also be voting on them.
RickW
2 years ago
x4estworker
You DO realize that you are an "EX" forestworker because of your right-wing loonie tune destruction of the forest industry, n'est pas....................
Oh, and while we're at it, this about sums up the motives behind PM Harper's machinations:
http://communities.canada.com/vancouversun/blogs/thesearch/archive/2008/10/09/do-stephen-harper-and-sarah-palin-share-same-belief-about-end-times.aspx
Anything he can do to hasten Armageddon.....
North of Hope
2 years ago
This does not work Tonnes
This does not work
Tonnes per capita X population density /sq k = tonnes / sq k
capita does not equal population
FromTheMasses
2 years ago
Janie Jones...
your absolutely right
Dan the socialist
2 years ago
Harper aka Bush jr. sure has
Harper aka Bush jr. sure has managed to ruin our reputation in his almost 4 years of power. We are sure becoming more like mini America...
Jeffrey J.
2 years ago
Excellent Summary
Murray Dobbin says it all. A deeply troubling, sad story. How awful for us. It hurts a lot.
snert
2 years ago
North of Hope
There was an error on my part. The per capita numbers I used were actually from the 2007 column.
Per Capita: ""Per head", i.e., "per person" - a ratio by the number of persons. The singular is per caput ("through a head")."
Tonnes per capita X population density [in square kilometres] = tonnes/square kilometre.
Population density is just as much a contributing factor to AGW as is individual consumption. Certainly these numbers can be broken down even further but I think the end result would still reflect the fact that Canada as a nation pollutes it's environment far less than people would like us to believe.
That being said, we are not perfect and can make changes.
Booker
2 years ago
The American experience
So, Canadians elect Harper to represent our country and our international reputation plummets to depths not seen in living memory (if ever).
The United States elects Barrack Obama and their reputation improves to heights not seen since WWII.
I think that conclusions about policy can be made from this comparison, and that Canadian voters should consider them the next time they have a chance to vote. It matters how we are perceived in the world, and if our representatives are ignorant reactionaries, we all get to share that label. It might soon be advisable to remove that Canadian flag pin from your backpack when travelling abroad.
Frank
2 years ago
Janie Jones
"I have learned by participating in forums and boards that you can completely agree with someone on one subject and completely disagree on others."
Of course. When discussing the environment, gun control, poverty, job creation, the Olympics etc, the people on your side and those you argue with tends to fluctuate.
That's why its a good thing not to call someone an a**hole just because they agree with you "only" 95% of the time :)
As for the voting booth conundrum, well, its not realistic to think you're ever going to find a party you agree with 100%, its just not going to happen. Unfortunately, as the numbers of people voting show, you're not alone in thinking that means there's no one to vote for.
I go with overall principles not specific policies, I don't want a society based on dog-eat-dog, massive wealth disparity, discipline, conformity and where business elites run the show. Many do.
Our current system needed to be changed. We needed to give voters more choices when they go into the booth. But it was voted down so its dead. We also need parliamentary reform but that won't happen without breaking party discipline and that can only happen by changing the electoral system.
So the numbers of people voting will continue to go down.
seth
2 years ago
Greenies for Harpo
Elizabeth May and the Green Party working hard to reelect the Harpo.
Skywalker
2 years ago
I had not notice a difference
x4est worker says "The BC Liberals tried to be far right in its first term, and just about lost the next election. They now try to be a populist party." They are still as arrogant. They have majorly lied twice, They still privatize services. They still sell off resources to their friends? They still tax the poor and give to the rich?
And they are not far right? You are kidding?
Janie Jones
2 years ago
Remember Newfo?
Ideologies often sound good on paper but when it comes time to enact them, there is always bloodshed.
For example, I am an ex forest worker myself, doing over twenty-five years in a family owned reforestation business. When the NDP in were in power they came up with the brilliant idea of training IWA workers for the jobs we had survived in a competitive bidding environment and done for years.
$400 million was then pumped into New Forest Opportunities "Newfo" and silvicultural hiring was routed through it with IWA members "red-circled" first in line for hiring over experienced and highly efficient silvicultural workers who were to be paid $17.71/hr and had to meet certain production standards whereas an IWA member, who had worked in a sawmill or logging operation received his/her old rate of pay which went as high as $30/hr and did not have to meet any production standards. Some animals definitely more than equal than other here.
With policies like this, it is not any wonder that the NDP got turfed in the next election and it has been extremely difficult for me to put an X beside their candidates ever since.
The same situation now exists in rural BC with those with first nations status now similarly "red-circled" and given hiring preference over any other qualified candidate. Gordo has even gone to so far as to suggest that this is their "constitutional" right along with "ownership" of all crown lands and resources.
And the NDP and Greens with their support of Aboriginal Rights and Title seem to be right on board so where is any difference in overall policies in this one?
jwstewart
2 years ago
Bummer, we can't solve all
Bummer, we can't solve all the world's problems, and we adopted policies a little closer to our nearest and dearest neighbor rather than follow the elightened democratic oligarchy of the Rothchilds.
Now nobody likes us, boo hoo.
Oh well, I got seals to club over the head, back to work.
Frank
2 years ago
Janie Jones
Well that's just it. I could spend all day listing policies of Dipper governments I didn't like. But then who would I vote for?
Policies can be changed, principles and world views rarely ever. James and I don't agree on a lot but its an order of magnitude more than I agree with Campbell so I vote for her. Given our current political systems what other choice does one have?
This isn't religion where everything has to fit, it just comes down to voting for the lesser of evils. Half the population chose not to vote at all so they got Campbell. Did that make them happy? I doubt it.
Skywalker
2 years ago
Funny
"With policies like this, it is not any wonder that the NDP got turfed in the next election" First time I've heard that one so it must have been a real vote determinant across the province.
mopled
2 years ago
Science challenged Dobbins does it again.
Harper will go along with global governance because he's a stooge. He's informed enough to know 'global warming' is a capitalist scam masquerading as a populist enviro-cause, but he will go along with whatever is dictated at Copenhagen.
This is such a shell game. Dobbin, speaking from the "Left" pretends it is the filthy capitalists who are preventing the saving of the world from the devastating effects of humankind's huge contribution to atmospheric CO2...all 12-15 PARTS PER MILLION of it, when they are the ones behind the scam.
Murray, hold your nose and read just what Al Gore, Maurice Strong, Barack Obama and Goldman Sachs stand to gain with regulating and taxing the "gas of life"
Obama’s involvement in Chicago Climate Exchange—the rest of the story
http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/9629
http://thebreakthrough.org/blog/2009/08/goldman_sachs_new_carbon_marke.shtml
Frank
2 years ago
mopled
Harper is on your side so I don't get why you call him a "stooge". You couldn't have a better prime minister in your fight against those that believe in climate change.
mopled
2 years ago
Harper is not on "my side"
Neither is Iggy, or the guitar player,( I want to gag when I hear him,) Layton, whose father was in Mulroney's cabinet or Miss Green Smarm herself, another gag inducer.We don't even have to go there about Gordo....we are all on the same page about him.
We just squeaked by getting a police state installed under the guise of consumer legislation.
How the bleep did it get past the House, you might well ask.
The Liberal Senators broke with Iggy who wanted them to pass it without amendments.
The fight is not over and we all have a lot of letter writing to do.
WAKE UP CANADA - BILL C-6 IS A FASCIST & UNCONSTITUTIONAL BILL TO STEAL OUR FREEDOM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpjDEBY-6DM
Meanwhile we get to have tyranny imposed in Copenhagen over a few parts per million of CO2.
Do the gatekeepers understand what they are protecting and enabling?
Police State Canada: The Emergence Into Fascism
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDQIIMC53yg&NR=1
rollandmiller
2 years ago
The Ugly Canadian
IT sure fits the current Harper government. Mr Dobbin is right on.
I am very embarissed over this as I travel the world on business and I am getting questions of what is wrong with Canada.
I have gone from Liberal to the NDP as the NDP party is the only one concerned with people.
Frank
2 years ago
mopled
Harper doesn't believe in climate change. He hasn't done anything to combat it, what more could you want from a PM?
As for Campbell, sure he brought in a carbon tax but its a useless one that has done nothing and the optics have allowed him leeway to do other things which you'd approve of such as putting a negative tax on gas (HST doesn't apply) to offset the carbon tax.
I really don't see how you could be upset with either of them.
As for Copenhagen, it failed, you don't have to worry about "world government" on behalf of the environment and can continue living under the world government run by the financiers. You should be singing "happy days are here again".
mopled
2 years ago
How naive can you be ?
It takes PR agencies to produce that kind of effect so rapidly.
This is a manufactured guilt trip because the people who run the world will use any tactic to keep us in line...including trying to make us feel guilty for being reluctant to support a fraud.
The tar sands are nasty, but carping about their CO2 misses the point of the real destruction taking place...DOESN'T IT!
And the fake enviros help misdirect your attention...DON'T THEY!
mopled
2 years ago
Don't pull that BS Frank
I see fraud no matter which controlled party is in power...and they are all controlled.
You don't think Canada would be allowed to govern itself do you? The "Cold Banana Republic' metaphor is still unfortunately correct.
Where the bleep do you get off pulling that stuff about me being happy with "living under the world government run by the financiers. You should be singing "happy days are here again".
One.... that is a not so veiled attempt at a smear and assumes an awful lot about my finances on no evidence whatsoever.
Two.... it is the Financiers wet dream to get the World Bank, half owned by the US Fed.Res., to be in charge of the 2% of GDP they plan to bleed from every country.
Do you support that, Mr. O'SoSmart?
You give a first class imitation of just the kind of obscurantism rampant around here.
Frank
2 years ago
mopled
"It takes PR agencies to produce that kind of effect so rapidly."
What effect?
"This is a manufactured guilt trip because the people who run the world will use any tactic to keep us in line...including trying to make us feel guilty for being reluctant to support a fraud."
Why would they care? They run it already and as Chavez said they got bailed out by the taxpayers again.
"The tar sands are nasty, but carping about their CO2 misses the point of the real destruction taking place...DOESN'T IT!"
Somewhat, yes. We agree partially on that. CO2 or not the tar sands are bad for the environment.
"And the fake enviros help misdirect your attention...DON'T THEY!"
Mine? Not at all. I think its your attention that has been diverted.
Frank
2 years ago
mopled
"Where the bleep do you get off pulling that stuff about me being happy with "living under the world government run by the financiers. You should be singing "happy days are here again"."
Because everything you were worried about happening, didn't happen. Ergo, you must be pleased.
"One.... that is a not so veiled attempt at a smear and assumes an awful lot about my finances on no evidence whatsoever."
I did no such thing. I hope your finances are in excellent shape and you're posting from your winter palace in Tahiti.
"Two.... it is the Financiers wet dream to get the World Bank, half owned by the US Fed.Res., to be in charge of the 2% of GDP they plan to bleed from every country."
The Financiers already get whatever they need. The World Bank (and the IMF) is part of the system, that's why it was set up.
"You give a first class imitation of just the kind of obscurantism rampant around here."
Thanks, I majored in it.
mopled
2 years ago
They want more
Because there is no "enough" for greedy sociopaths.
Because they also want to reduce population because we are trash cluttering up what they consider theirs.(see John Holdren and Paul Ehrlich)
Because they want to bleed every last penny out of us before we go.
What "didn't happen"? I bet they will get a framework for global governance and taxation through in the final hour in Copenhagen. They did the same last minute type deal in Kyoto.
It takes PR agencies to get out the word about the tar sands and to demonize Canada. They in turn are paid by NGOs which get their funding from foundations which get their funding from the same capitalist bastards who run the world.
Get it...AGW is a capitalist fraud.
Frank
2 years ago
mopled
If what you're worried about is that "another Kyoto" will happen then I don't see why you'd care. None of our lives changed in any way because of what Canada signed at Kyoto.
As for population reduction, I don't see how anyone could oppose it. A species keeping its numbers in alignment with what the environment can support is basic to survival. The only opposition I can imagine is where one considers man to be equivalent to gods that cannot be bound by the physical limits that bind other animals.
Why would "the capitalist bastards" want to shut down the tar sands since they're heavily invested in it? Its average Canadians that aren't getting what the resource is worth, the financial class is doing fine off of it.
Frank
2 years ago
mopled
By the way, shouldn't you be happy that Harper won the "fossil" award at Copenhagen for our country's inaction on the issue?
mopled
2 years ago
Obscurantism or stupidity?
They don't want to shut down the tar sands!
They want to switch from natural gas to nuclear to fuel the steam needed for extraction of the oil.
Then, they get to sell the gas too. They could probably even get a government subsidy for the nuke under the guise of reducing CO2.
The oil companies then laugh all the way to the banks that run them.
I told you Harper's a stooge, so why would I care about a PR stunt using him?
As to Kyoto, we are on the hook for over a $Billion
in fines.....
For helping plants grow better.
Frank
2 years ago
mopled
So the environmentalists are protesting against the tar sands so that the financiers can build a nuclear reactor to get the energy required to extract the stuff as well as sell the gas they use now.
That's a convoluted theory that just doesn't make sense. The cost of the reactor will probably exceed the profit from the gas. The environmentalists don't get anything at all from the deal as the tar sands stays in production.
I know you're going to claim that the enviros are being paid off by the financiers but that just makes the cost/benefit case for the financier side of things look even worse.
"I told you Harper's a stooge, so why would I care about a PR stunt using him?"
What specific policy on climate change has Harper ever put forward that you disagree with?
"As to Kyoto, we are on the hook for over a $Billion
in fines....."
No we aren't, its never happened.
mopled
2 years ago
Of course the tar sands will stay in production
Where did you ever get the idea they would be stopped?
Deals like this never make sense for taxpayers.But with subsidies from both Ottawa and Edmonton the oil companies, which are all involved in nuclear, will be persuaded build the plants.
No, we never reduced "emissions", but we agreed to Kyoto and I bet we will have to pony up sometime soon.
The enviros avert their eyes from the sources of foundation funding, so they pretend not to see the strings attached to the funding.
Frank
2 years ago
mopled
"Where did you ever get the idea they would be stopped?"
Where did you get the idea I said any such thing?
"Deals like this never make sense for taxpayers."
That doesn't really tell me why your theory should be believed does it?
popejoe
2 years ago
If only. . .
If only your list was complete.
Unfortunately for Canada's reputation the world also knows that Canadians club seals.
This completes a nice top-ten list: "Top Ten Reasons to Boycott Canada."
max von smartt
2 years ago
kanada = amerikan lapdog
harper is a shameless supporter of all things amerikan, basically a lapdog. do not expect leadership.
RickW
2 years ago
snert
When you figure population densities, you should take into account the simple fact that most Canucks live in about 10% of our total area, or 380,000 sq. miles.....
CDNBobOrr
2 years ago
Truth
You stupid little beaver. No one gives a F*rt what Canada does. You only produce 2% of CO2 in the world... hardly even an industrial country. Stop having ideas above your station in life. One might imagine that you think that you are a real country..like the Middle Kingdom or the US. As Maggie Thatcher said vis a vis Canada. "I was talking about countries which count."
CDNBobOrr
2 years ago
Truth
You stupid little beaver. No one gives a F*rt what Canada does. You only produce 2% of CO2 in the world... hardly even an industrial country. Stop having ideas above your station in life. One might imagine that you think that you are a real country..like the Middle Kingdom or the US. As Maggie Thatcher said vis a vis Canada. "I was talking about countries which count."
CDNBobOrr
2 years ago
Asbestos
Just to send you into apoplexy... there is no evidence at all that white asbestos (as produced in Quebec) has ever harmed anyone. It is a good example of ignorant hysteria. Blue asbestos (crocidolite) is dangerous. White asbestos is not.
CDNBobOrr
2 years ago
Forsing people to eat genetically modified organism
Canada "forces" people to eat GMO? Again, my little rodent, you vastly over-estimate your influence in the world. When did Canada ever "force' anyone to do anything. You can't even force your citizens to stop having shoot outs in downtown Toronto, or shoot up drugs in downtown Vancouver.
CDNBobOrr
2 years ago
Israel
Israel is an open democracy surrounded by enemies who have no respect for human life, never mind rights. You stupid little beaver, have you looked at how Hamas treats people in the strip? But you would like to align yourself with people who only love death, and turn your back on the only humanistic society in the middle east. But the stupid little left wing beaver has never seen a murderous tyranny that it didn't love. It loved Stalin in the 30s, loved the deadhand of the soviets. Probably cheered the Chairman when millions were starving. It likes the dictators of Cuba... who whine about us not being a democracy, while they have run a disgusting tyranny for 40 years. Of course the silly little rodent loves Hamas.
CDNBobOrr
2 years ago
Latin America
So you think Chavez is a force for good in the world? Have you listened to him? He is like Stalin but without the force. As you might have gathered, actually I am a Canadian. But not a stupid little beaver. I am ashamed that there are people like you in my country who have no idea about the difference between right and wrong. People who will support any disgusting anti-democratic force, as long as they can shoe-horn it into their stupid left-wing world view.
CDNBobOrr
2 years ago
Latin America
So you think Chavez is a force for good in the world? Have you listened to him? He is like Stalin but without the force. As you might have gathered, actually I am a Canadian. But not a stupid little beaver. I am ashamed that there are people like you in my country who have no idea about the difference between right and wrong. People who will support any disgusting anti-democratic force, as long as they can shoe-horn it into their stupid left-wing world view.
Frank
2 years ago
realisticman
Why'd you change your handle?
Frank
2 years ago
Hurrah for beavers
Hey guy, you use the asbestos for insulation and eat the GMO food. You seem to have been doing it bass-ackwards.
CDNBobOrr
2 years ago
Latin America
So you think Chavez is a force for good in the world? Have you listened to him? He is like Stalin but without the force. As you might have gathered, actually I am a Canadian. But not a stupid little beaver. I am ashamed that there are people like you in my country who have no idea about the difference between right and wrong. People who will support any disgusting anti-democratic force, as long as they can shoe-horn it into their stupid left-wing world view.
Frank
2 years ago
CDNBobOrr
"As you might have gathered, actually I am a Canadian"
I doubt it, you don't have much knowledge of Canada's history.
Bonne chance mademoiselle!
CDNBobOrr
2 years ago
Latin America
So you think Chavez is a force for good in the world? Have you listened to him? He is like Stalin but without the force. As you might have gathered, actually I am a Canadian. But not a stupid little beaver. I am ashamed that there are people like you in my country who have no idea about the difference between right and wrong. People who will support any disgusting anti-democratic force, as long as they can shoe-horn it into their stupid left-wing world view.
CDNBobOrr
2 years ago
Latin America
So you think Chavez is a force for good in the world? Have you listened to him? He is like Stalin but without the force. As you might have gathered, actually I am a Canadian. But not a stupid little beaver. I am ashamed that there are people like you in my country who have no idea about the difference between right and wrong. People who will support any disgusting anti-democratic force, as long as they can shoe-horn it into their stupid left-wing world view.
CDNBobOrr
2 years ago
Frank
""I doubt it, you don't have much knowledge of Canada's history""
Ummm. I don't see how I referred to Canadian hsitory. Maybe you can enlarge on that?
Des
2 years ago
Gee, Murray Dobbin,
your ugly Canadian is actually here now, hi-jacking the discourse with unintended humour. At least that's somewhat of a relief from the deadly seriousness of others here (are they just drinking too much for a Friday night or are they really off the wall, as usual?)
Snert, emissions of pollution, or the "gas of life" itself, must be measured and counted per capita only. Countries naturally vary in size, while individuals do not. In your system, Lichtenstein and Monte Carlo must have invaluable low counts. Canada is not a low emitter.
Des
2 years ago
Gee Again, Murray,
we are really getting off-topic, aren't we? The basic problem with the nine points you list lies in the uneducated great unwashed hordes we have unleashed on the country. It would be nice if we could just blame the politicians for the garden paths they tend to lead us down, but the destinations are well-advertised ahead of time. So if you don't want to step in shit, don't follow the lead. Find another way to the outhouse. Let the vote itself guide you. Never give it up.
bilgladstone
2 years ago
Canada has become a failed
Canada has become a failed state. People no longer believe that their vote counts for anything. Corporatists are in control of all meaningful industry, government, and soon, public services and natural resources.
This situation will not - cannot - improve until we institute some form of proportional representation.
Canadianwannabe
2 years ago
Ugly Canadian?
I thought when I finally got to Canada there would be no more causes to work on. I have always looked north for a better example of human decency. Dobbins set me straight. And Booker has it right. As an American I know what it is like to live under a government of fools who can't think past tomorrow. You have to be always vigilant when it comes to your government.
RickW
2 years ago
CDNBobOrr
Yes, you just go on thinking that fable:
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/10/20091026132714361238.html
Skywalker
2 years ago
Have you all noticed.
CNDBobOrr sounds like George W. Enough said.
rroenew
2 years ago
What Colour is the Sky in Your World? - The Betrayal of Africa
I happen to disagree with almost everything you have said Murray, but will comment on one of your points that just proves how far this diatribe strays from reality.
Rwanda has a President who had set a program to eliminate his countries reliance upon foreign aid in less than 5 years from now. I ask you how when we are doing what he wants can we be "ugly Canadians?" And it is generally accepted that aid does more harm than good, see Dead Aid by Dambisa Moyo.
If you are so far off on this simple point - you must be very far off on all the others too.
I for one am proud to be a Canadian and still very proud of our country and our leaders and their presence in the world.
MadHack
2 years ago
Rhetoric
Both sides of this argument use language that alienates the other.
I thought x4estworker was being ironic initially when talking about the political concerns of Canadians; if you read him/her that way, the questions become relevant. Harper needs votes in Quebec and supports asbestos—the question is how does one reemploy people whose livelihoods depend on asbestos (killing baby seals, growing genetically modified food, climbing into bed with the Americans on everything/American ownership of everything in Canada), and whose lives right now depend on transportation to such a great degree (comparing Denmark to Canada in terms of carbon use is just trying superficially to win an argument).
The Harper government is not Canada—most of the people in the country who voted did not vote for members of his party.
Left/right ideological bickering puts the public just where the politicians of whatever flavour want them to be: in a position arguing about matters that offer no practical or tangible solutions.
"Smoke" became "air pollution" became "acid rain": acid rain moves the blame for environmental degradation to the environment itself. I would argue that "carbon footprint" and "climate change" create the same straw men for people to burn. How many people die from respiratory diseases every year? Can you distinguish colours when you look at the mountains? How many people's lives have been made beholden to the asbestos industry? What is the ratio of lives cost to lives saved? How many people have used guns to kill people relative to the number of people who have used marijuana (the actual substance) to kill people every year?What are the physical effects of GMO on people, and what effect does it have on produce?
I realize the source of our problems often arise from more abstract sources, but solutions are always concrete.
snert
2 years ago
RickW
Point that out to those that would malign Canada. Population density is population density. In your own words you just pointed out that 90% of Canada is more or less unsullied and capable of absorbing a significant portion of our own CO2 output.
As things warm up, if in fact they do, Canada will still be a major CO2 sink to a far greater extent than say Denmark. We are not as much a part of the problem as people would make us out to be.
As a nation our footprint on the environment is quite small compared to almost all other developed countries.
Here's a couple more examples;
Canada - 53.44 tonnes of CO2 /sq k
Germany - 2231
China - 642.16
US - 589
Sweden - 115
and so on.
I realize that this comparison does not encompass all the variables but for the most part it demonstrates that the measure of the environmental footprint of any country does not solely consist of the total energy consumed, per capita or otherwise.
Canadians, through their own 'selfishness and greed' have kept their population density at a level that would be quite sustainable if the rest of the world were to follow suit. It ain't gonna happen though so we should not feel overly guilty about what we do or don't do.
uglychinesecanadian
2 years ago
HOPE
When our American neighbours got George W as a leader... the American people reacted by electing in Obama.
We Ugly Canadians now got a two bit bully warming the PM's seat. I just hope that we Ugly Canadians will have the balls to pull ourselves up from the gutter, and rid ourselves of Harper and his ilke.
Ugly Canadian? Yeh... http://www.uglycanadian.com
cboo44
2 years ago
Ugly Canadian
Dobbin is the Ugly Canadian around here. Sanctimonious, holier than thou, finger pointing clown. Half fact, half fiction propaganda. Utter half-truth nonsense.
Sask Resident
2 years ago
Generous, humanitarian reputation
I can tell that few have lived and worked elsewhere in the world. Few people in the third world know anything about Canada never mind that it is suppose to be generous and humanitarian. Only immigration consultants know about Canada, as an easy place to con their way into.
So I disagree with just about every one of Dobbin's points. I'm glad Canada didn't sign into Goldman Sachs cap-and-trade money pit. I'm also glad that Canada has walked away from most of Africa and its despots with Swiss bank accounts. But I find his points really funny when he Harper to be tougher on countries for human rights except China, which treats its dissidents with such compassion. Maybe treat China like Chretien who is not a consultant with gambling and mining in China.
vince byfield
2 years ago
mostly with ya, mr. dobbin... but
Let's face facts. Mr Obama's grand-standing aside, Copenhagen was never going to work.
Although I seriously question IMHO the 'hype' of climate change (http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2004/12/myths-vs-fact-regarding-the-hockey-stick/) I would agree that pollution is definitely a problem.
The 'developed' world's addiction to cheap Chinese goods must stop--and I suspect it soon will by the simple fact that our tab with China has reached its limit.
This will result in a major global change all right, but of an economic variety and one I think that is badly overdue.
In the aftermath I hope that the next economic model is far more sustainable.