BC's Rich and Poor: A Gap Pried Wider
Government fostered the divide. Now it reaps expensive social woes. Third of four on 'BC's Broken Economy.'
Inequity has been built into BC's economy. Photo by The Blackbird.
The recent deterioration of B.C.'s economic fundamentals has very real consequences for the way British Columbians live. The growing income gap between rich and poor and the stagnation of real wages is behind many of the mounting social problems we face in our communities.
It's true that British Columbians have seen modest real-income growth per capita in the past eight years. From 2001 to 2008, inflation-adjusted income per capita rose by 2 per cent per year from $32,727 to $37,477, reports BC Stats. However, as we shall see, much of the statistical rise in income was illusory, in the sense that much of it was in fact captured by already wealthy individuals. Looking at the income-growth figures alone masks serious emerging problems.
Income distribution
The gap between the rich and poor in Canada widened significantly in the past ten years, partly because Ottawa spent less on cash benefits than many other developed countries, as the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development reported in March.
It was a reversal of the trend over the two previous decades when the gap was narrowing, the OECD report said. It said Canada's poverty and income inequality rates both spiked between 1995 and 2005 and now each exceeds the 30-member organization's average. The organization said Canada experienced an especially rapid rise in both poverty and inequality; only Germany's gap widened at a comparable rate.
The study also found that Canada's well-to-do enjoyed a more substantial income than their counterparts in other developed countries. The report said Canadians in the top 10 per cent income bracket were earning an average equivalent to $US 71,000, more than 30 per cent higher than the OECD average of $US 54,000.
A Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives study released about the same time showed that the situation in B.C. is even worse. "The gap between the wealthiest and the majority of B.C. families has grown dramatically over the past 30 years," CCPA economist Iglika Ivanova wrote, noting that the share of income going to the richest 10 per cent of families has grown fast, while the share going to the bottom half of families has declined substantially. This is true for both earnings and after-tax incomes.
Not only has inequality grown, adds Ivanova, but most B.C. families with children have also fallen behind in absolute terms. The bottom 70 per cent of families have lower real (inflation-adjusted) earnings than their counterparts in the late 1970s, and the bottom 60 per cent saw a decline in their after-tax incomes as well. And middle-class families in B.C. have been squeezed to an extent not seen in other provinces, she notes.
Just as the OECD found for Canada as a whole, Ivanova found that government taxes and transfers reduce labour-market inequality in B.C. somewhat -- but not nearly as well as it used to. "When we examine after-tax income instead of earnings, the benefit of the tax and transfer system becomes clear for the poorest 10 per cent of families with children: they are no longer the ones who experienced the largest drop in income," Ivanova notes. "While their earnings fell by a staggering 74 per cent over the 30-year period, their after-tax incomes declined by only 4 per cent."
However, she adds, the tax and transfer system in B.C. fails to adequately help the rest of the bottom half of families, whose after-tax incomes declined considerably. In fact "drops in real after-tax incomes are substantially larger in B.C. than in any other province. That is, whereas other provinces have managed to offset declines in earnings through the system of government transfers and taxes, B.C. has been much less successful."
We can see clearly the result of the Gordon Campbell tax cut and other income-distribution programs, in other words. After the tax cuts, only the top 30 per cent of families earned more than had their counterparts in the late 1970s; the gains were highest for those who were better off to begin with. The top 10 per cent benefited the most as their average earnings rose by 29 per cent from $152,374 to $196,457 between the late 1970s and the mid-2000s, says the CCPA.
The gap between rich, lower-income and working British Columbians was in fact heightened by the Campbell tax cut of June 2001 and subsequent policies, for instance the so-called "carbon tax". The 2001 cut gave the 13 percent of taxpayers making more than $60,000 about 52.8 percent of the total tax savings.
At the very top of the income ladder, the 1.1 per cent of taxpayers earning over $150,000 got a whopping 20 per cent of the total savings.
Meanwhile those earning under $30,000 -- 48.4 per cent of all taxpayers -- shared among them just 13.4 percent of the tax-cut benefits.
Real wages
Average hourly inflation-adjusted earning for all employees increased by just 1.3 per cent in B.C. from 1998 to 2007. But while workers' pay actually fell, managers got substantial increases. Management occupations saw a 13.4 per cent rise in average hourly pay. Workers in manufacturing received a pay cut of 7.1 per cent, while those in sales and service jobs saw a 1.1 per cent drop in their hourly pay.
And with the loss of thousands of jobs in manufacturing and resource industries, it's unsurprising that the number of good jobs also declined. The number of jobs paying between $20 and $29.99 an hour actually fell, even though the size of the workforce increased.
The widening income gap between those at the top of society effectively transforms into a social problem the economic problems of falling productivity, declining exports, a deteriorating manufacturing base and growing dependence on oil and gas and a few unprocessed commodities.
This shift is in fact at the root of the growth in poverty and the growing inequity being built into B.C.'s economy today.
Tomorrow, last in this series: How government policies that weakened B.C's economy are, as a result, harming a key asset in the global economy, our vaunted 'quality of life'. ![[Tyee]](http://thetyee.cachefly.net/ui/img/ico_fishie.png){kind=small}
- 'The Kids Are All Right'
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- Glaciers, BC Hydro's Melting 'Batteries'
- Frankie Rose Makes Life Tougher for Journalists
- Becoming the Ethical Hunter
- Too Much Energy Used to Mine, Move Bitumen Says BC Firm
- Three Ryan Gosling Pickup Techniques that Don't Work in Real Life
- Shadow Workers of the World, Revolt!
- Could SOPA Pervade Canadian Copyright Law?
- Would You Buy a Used Car from These Libs?
- Shadow Workers of the World, Revolt!
- Bill Rees' Last Lecture
- Economist Calls Gateway Pipeline an Inflationary 'Threat'
- Too Much Energy Used to Mine, Move Bitumen Says BC Firm
- Is Canada Ignoring Signs of a Coming Economic Collapse?
- Harper in China
- How First Nations Are Gearing Up for Legal Battle Against Gateway
- Eleven Oily Questions for Every MP
- Remembering Lloyd Dykk's Wit, Generosity and Superb Prose
- BC Child Care Advocates in Geneva to Complain to UN
- BC, You Love You
- Shadow Workers of the World, Revolt!
- Who Pays Huge Power Bills for Clark's Gas Plants?
- Make It the Canadian Webcasting Corporation
- Harper in China
- When the Prize Is a Chance to Toil on BC's Farms
- Three Ryan Gosling Pickup Techniques that Don't Work in Real Life
- Would You Buy a Used Car from These Libs?
- Time to Zip John Baird's Loose Lips
- Foreign Trade Zones Eyed for Vancouver, Prince Rupert, Prince George
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G West
2 years ago
First off
Thanks for using a photo, a great one by the way, by The Blackbird.
One hopes it won't be the last time.
Well done Tyee and thanks too to Kim Pollock
Hermans Hermit
2 years ago
Rich Man Poor Man
That was a TV series.
Workers of the world unite!
Martin
2 years ago
Fun with numbers
One of the features of a "progressive" income tax system is that those with higher incomes pay a higher rate of tax. That's what we have now.
The reason why the wealthiest got a bigger share of the tax cut in 2001, is because the wealthiest bear the biggest share of the tax burden. Sorry, lefties, you might not like that fact coming to light, but it's true.
While I don't know the stats for BC, the US Internal Revenue Service said that in the USA, the richest 5 per cent of taxpayers paid 54% of all US income taxes in 2003. I wouldn't be surprised if the same distribution is true here.
The best system would be a flat tax -- everybody paying the same percentage, so the rich would pay more because they are rich, but the proportion would stay the same. That's fair: everybody contributing equally. Now that's progressive!
Dan the socialist
2 years ago
The rich get richer and the
The rich get richer and the rest of us suffer. Bring on the revolution..
snert
2 years ago
Drug money
Unfortunately there is no accounting for the large amounts of drug money that are probably getting laundered within the province. I would suspect that if actually taken into account it might skew the wealth gap results dramatically.
G West
2 years ago
The rich don't pay enough tax Martin
That's the problem - did you read the article?
zalm
2 years ago
And more fun...
Using the same stats (from 2001, Wikipedia) that 52.4% of tax paid by the top 5% earners was paid on 27.5% of total income. That means, the top 5% earners, earned 76 times as much as the bottom 20% earners. Don't forget, the US marginal rate is still less than 30.8% and the total tax paid less than that, so that's not a bad premium to pay for being lucky. Especially since that bill got reduced for the upper 5% through 7 more years of GWBush.
Anyway, ultimately these statistics are meaningless because they conflate totals with means and deviations, and hardly anybody can tell one from the other. But just like hearing the word "billions", everybody likes to hear big percentages when it comes to tax reduction without understanding any - not one! - of the implications.
Flat tax is another issue entirely, and as unfair as it gets, but that's for another column.
OilbertaRedTory
2 years ago
Flat Tax on a Flat Earth ...
... 'cos we've already got one y'see :
http://econpapers.repec.org/paper/carcarecp/95-02.htm
- the 'fair tax' also known as the 'scare tax' :
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&sid=aIOIqqEofwFU&refer=columnist_shlaes
Jeffrey J.
2 years ago
BC being hijacked by Neocons
There are two components needed for a society to replace authoritarian regimes with true democracy. First, articles like this need to be published, discussed, explored and republished, over and over again. It is VERY important that citizens are reminded of just how badly BC is being run by corporate interests. The second component follows from the first: people take action. The ONLY way regimes like Campbell's can be displaced is by citizen reaction. In this case, the sooner we give these guys the boot, the better. Excellent article.
realisticman
2 years ago
Usual Soak the Rich Class War
99% of the population knows full well that statistics can be shaped and fashioned to say whatever the interpreter wishes and this article is classic. The motive: perpetuate the myth that the less well of in society are poorer because of the fault of the, so called, 'rich'. Create envy, although many other articles currently seem to be pleading that money is not the answer to happiness, and create division in society and hope that a glorious homogenized utopia run by the proletariat will come to power. Marx lives!, they think.
Society in the USA is less equitable than that in Canada, yet.
What income group pays the most federal income taxes today?
The latest data show that a big portion of the federal income tax burden is shouldered by a small group of the very richest Americans. The wealthiest 1 percent of the population earn 19 percent of the income but pay 37 percent of the income tax. The top 10 percent pay 68 percent of the tab. Meanwhile, the bottom 50 percent—those below the median income level—now earn 13 percent of the income but pay just 3 percent of the taxes. These are proportions of the income tax alone and don’t include payroll taxes for Social Security and Medicare.
Have gains by the rich come at the expense of a declining living standard for the middle class?
No. If Bill Gates suddenly took his tens of billions of dollars and moved to France, income distribution in America would temporarily appear more equitable, even though no one would be better off. Median family income in America between 1980 and 2004 grew by 17 percent. The middle class (defined as those between the 40th and the 60th percentiles of income) isn’t falling behind or “disappearing.” It is getting richer. The lower income bound for the middle class has risen by about $12,000 (after inflation) since 1967. The upper income bound for the middle class is now roughly $68,000—some $23,000 higher than in 1967. Thus, a family in the 60th percentile has 50 percent more buying power than 30 years ago.
Same for Canada in slightly different degrees and Canada has a massive social structure too!
Skywalker
2 years ago
R/man
Just as you were wrong on Honduras -- TEGUCIGALPA, Honduras (AP) -- More results from a Gallup survey in Honduras were published Wednesday, showing ousted President Manuel Zelaya remains more popular than his interim replacement Roberto Micheletti." From Associated Press -- you are wrong here as well.
The rich don't pay a lot of taxes as almost all of the loop holes and tax deductions favour the wealthy. If the portion of taxes paid by the rich compared to the rest is ever decreasing, that alone should raise the alarm. It is the shift in the tax burden that makes it clear that the rich pay less and less.
Some months ago Ben Stone wrote an article challenging all the business executives to compare their taxes to those paid by one of the the secretaries in their offices. It was most revealing. It is a myth that the rich are overtaxed. Once you are in business there are so many accounting ways to pad your expenses and reduce you income. The whole capital gains structure favours those with tons of loot.
You also argue in favour of free trade which feeds right into you self serving argument about the possible flow of capital. If governments had any sense they would prevent corporations from holding people hostage just so they could maximize their profit in another country. That resource rich countries like Canada tolerate this kind of thing is a disgrace.
It is not a class war yet, but it might be one day.
Skywalker
2 years ago
Correction!
That should have been "Ben Stein" economist
realisticman
2 years ago
Who are these 'rich' Skywalker?
The myth is brought to you by the same gang that told us that our Premier has a sweet tooth for roasted babies.
Statistics Canada recently released a study looking at tax shares in that country. It shows that the share of federal income taxes paid by the top 10 percent of taxpayers reached 52.6 percent in 2002 -- almost exactly the same as is paid by the top 10 percent in the United Kingdom. However, the top income tax rate in Canada is just 29 percent. (Provincial tax rates in Canada are very substantially higher than among U.S. states.)
Review:
TOP 10 PERCENT pays 52.6 percent of income tax received
by the Canadian federal government
BOTTOM 90 PERCENT of society in Canada pay 47.4 percent
of all income tax received by the Canadian federal government.
At some point, those on the left must decide what really matters to them -- the appearance of soaking the rich by imposing high statutory tax rates that may cause actual tax payments by the wealthy to fall, or lower rates that may bring in more revenue that can pay for government programs to aid the poor? Sadly, the left nearly always votes for appearances over reality, favoring high rates that bring in little revenue even when lower rates would bring in more.
Skywalker
2 years ago
R/Man
No red herrings please. That is plain stupid and it doesn't deflect from you incorrect analysis on Honduras.
It isn't about soaking the rich but it is about making life easier for the average by making the rich pay fair value for the resources they extract and the labour they rely on for their wealth. None of them get rich on their own labour alone.
Actually it was billionaire Warren Buffett and you'll find it on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLD0p1QpcI8
Our economic policy follows closely the Americans.
realisticman
2 years ago
Skytalker
Talk about herrings! 'tis thou that requests a return to Latin America. Please remember that 'twas I that said that patience was needed rather than knee-jerk warmongering to reinstate Zelaya. Me and my good friend Oscar. The chief mediator in the crisis, Costa Rican President Oscar Arias, has called the rival factions to a new round of talks on Saturday.
Previous talks have failed to produce a breakthrough, but Mr Arias - a Nobel prize laureate - is urging both sides to be patient.
quote from Sky:
"None of them get rich on their own labour alone."
As I said, who are these rich? What's the earnings level?
Is this the Ben Stein you speak of?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Stein
Lots to talk about there.
Skywalker
2 years ago
You're still deflecting and weaving unrealisticman!
As I corrected ..it was Warren Buffett and Ben Stein can't hold a candle to him. Nice try though.
Skywalker
2 years ago
Furthermore unrealisticman.
Every source that does not agree with what you believe is left-wing according to you. Even billionaire Warren Buffet must be a leftie. It is rather pointless engaging in a discussion with you. I'll let you go back to writing press releases for Gordon.
realisticman
2 years ago
Even Warren Buffet
He must be if he's investing so much in China. Will we all be driving his cars soon? Perhaps. He probably likes the dedication and high productivity he finds in China. Which brings us back to earnings gaps and that bugbear - productivity.
http://money.cnn.com/2009/04/13/technology/gunther_electric.fortune/
Laura S
2 years ago
taxes are good
For the past 15 years, our once-massive social structure, (massive, only by comparison to the USA) has been in decline. It plummeted downward shortly after the federal Liberals canceled the national non-profit housing program (an action they now admit was a mistake) and the Canada Assistance Plan.
Tax rates for both rich and poor people have dropped in the last 15 years.Paying less has not gained us more, unless your "more" is defined as more homelessness, more poverty, more expensive university and more health care crises.
Taxes are not bad. Government spending is not bad. Tax cuts reduce government revenue by about 3/4 of the cut.(a 40% tax cut results in 30% less revenue)
Think about where 15 years of accumulated tax revenue might have gone. We might well have retained our so-called "massive social structure".
G West
2 years ago
Changing the subject
Warren Buffett says there is a class war going on.
And it's being waged by the rich against the poor, the working poor and the middle class.
I don't know how many times I've had to post Mr Buffett's words but I never tire of doing it.
Here they are again:
And Skywalker, Ben Stein was involved - he was the one asking the questions of Mr Buffett.
Skywalker
2 years ago
Thanks G West.
It was that very account I was listening to. I just had trouble finding it again. You notice that even with that, R/Man always deflects to something else like Buffett's car and that he Buffett) is doing what all the Walmarts of the world do these day. Yet if we had a discussion on the practice of exporting jobs, R/man would be the first to argue that labour costs must be more competitive and so labour must work for less. That this further increases the disparity between the wealthy and the poor would not ever cross his mind.
onthebay
2 years ago
50% more buying power
I have a flyer from a large chain grocery store in Northern BC from the early 1970s (I just keep holding onto the flyer because it makes for interesting table-talk and comparisons). In this flyer bacon is 89 cents a pound, pork sausage is 79 cents a pound, chicken is 49 cents a pound, a 32 oz jar of whipped dressing is 59 cents, baked beans are 3 for 79 cents, oranges are 7lbs for $1.00, hothouse cucumbers are 39 cents each, toilet paper is 71 cents for a 4 roll pack, and cake mixes are 5 for $1.00.
Quess where the 50% more buying power goes?
G West
2 years ago
Skywalker
I agree wholeheartedly with your analysis.
realisticman
2 years ago
Buffeting Buffett
He's not at all doing what the 'Walmarts of the world do'. If you take a look at the link provided you will see that the technology that Buffett has invested hundreds of millions in was developed in China. This is quite different from taking a Rubbermaid plastic bucket, for example, to China and having them knock-off a close likeness. He's not exporting jobs because they are cheap, he's investing in and helping build a new industry. You can bet your sweet tucush that working men and women in Canada will buy them too.
If a company were developing this in BC and the metrics made sense Buffett would be investing here. That's what the labour movement has to recognize. Management understands. You can't just pay people more money unless there's good reason. The winners in the future will be those that continue to learn, innovate and adapt.
Much as some people seem to think that trade deals are bad, where are all those tree choppers going to sell their wood if the USA slows down even more? Wouldn't you think that trade deals with other countries would be a start? The Harper government is pursuing this yet the left opposes. ?.
Skywalker
2 years ago
So meaning what R/man...
...that what Buffett says about the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer is correct. You say he's a credible person and I agree.
SharingIsGood
2 years ago
R/Man - Buffet
Buffet: "If a company were developing this in BC and the metrics made sense Buffett would be investing here. That's what the labour movement has to recognize. Management understands. You can't just pay people more money unless there's good reason."
Buffet is investing in BC. We must be getting exploited just like Chinese people. Buffet the largest shareholder of GE has been increasing his ownership in GE and GE has bought into Plutonic power. Ge will receive 69% of the profits which are guaranteed by users in BC.
SharingIsGood
2 years ago
erratum
69% should read 60%
realisticman
2 years ago
skywalker
Did you read Ben Stein today?
http://finance.yahoo.com/expert/article/yourlife/177033
It's all up to you.
Sharing, "exploited just like Chinese people...."
National Bureau of Statistics (NBS) China. "said that urban per capita incomes were up 11.2% from a year earlier, and that real rural per capita incomes were up 8.1%. Meanwhile, China's consumer price index fell 1.7% in June compared with the same month a year earlier, the fifth consecutive monthly decline. ..."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8153138.stm
It just goes around. Another few years like this and the Chinese will be coming here for a cheap holiday.
zalm
2 years ago
R'man
You simply weren't listening. Or you'd rather play games presenting aggregate figures as gospel when they're meaningless. The only meaningful figures are the ones presented on a per-capita basis. Your figures are marketing - there IS no argument in them. I don't have time to repeat it for you, so go back and read it again. Here's chapter 2.
People at the poverty line spend 100% of their income on needs - that's by definition. Food, shelter, clothing, busfare, etc. Yet you complain about the tax rate on them being so low that the wallets of the rich are squeaking in protest!
Sigh.
The businessman in New Brunswick (province with the highest provincial tax rate) with the million-dollar annual salary, who pays absolutely no attention to his tax affairs and pays every dime of tax owing (praise that man!) still gets to keep $530,500 to tank up his Porsche and resole the Florsheims. I bet he could keep his kids in private school for that too, although it's near thing these days.
The $8 an hour McDonalds employee in BC lives in Surrey but commutes to downtown on the loser cruiser where she can always get a job because nobody else can afford to work down there. She grosses $15,000 a year, about $6,200 below the poverty line for a single employable, and gets taxed $550 for the privilege. Shares her apartment with a friend, makes do with less, and that's all right by you, eh?
Both get the benefits of waiting lists at hospitals and schools, both get to drive their Porsche on public highways, both get the benefit of the umbrella of the Canadian Forces protecting our borders from the scourges of civilization....
Exactly what's wrong with this?
Well, here's another view, an old one from better times, but even more valid today when times are tougher:
http://www.progressive-economics.ca/2006/08/14/bcs-poverty-amidst-plenty/
"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread. That is one of the good effects of the Revolution." - Anatole France
SharingIsGood
2 years ago
R-man the globalist
R-Man stated:
"National Bureau of Statistics (NBS) China. "said that urban per capita incomes were up 11.2% from a year earlier, and that real rural per capita incomes were up 8.1%. Meanwhile, China's consumer price index fell 1.7% in June compared with the same month a year earlier, the fifth consecutive monthly decline. ..."
You know R-Man, an 11% increase of $150/month = $165 per month. Boy, yeah, those Chinese really have it good. Let's all compete with them! Geeze!
What globalists don't understand is that Canada has all of the resources, infrastructure and education necessary to improve the quality of life for all Canadians while polluting the planet less. We have virtually everything we need to produce everything we need without polluting the planet further by shipping things back and forth from Aisa. Certainly we could have a little international trade to get a few bananas, and mangos etc. but we really don't need to be shipping our raw resources all over the world for others to manipulate and sell back to us. We don't really need other people's money when we have our own resources and the capacity for building our own plant and equipment as necessary.
We can grow our own food; we can build our own cars, planes and trains; we can mine and refine our own resources. Just imagine how long we could have natural gas and oil if we weren't in such a big hurry to sell it off.
Campbell has been making deals right and left to sell off our whole old growth forests and our oil and gas. What a fool! He doesn't care that nothing will be there for our kids and grand-kids. Now with the West Coast old growth gone and the Interior lands ravaged by the pine beetles, there will be no lumber for our grand-children. We will be having to buy it from Russia - and it won't be cheap.
http://www.finfacts.com/biz10/globalworldincomepercapita.htm
Recessions/depressions hit when too much wealth becomes concentrated in the hands of too few. There comes a point when the rich have no need to buy another Yacht or Leer jet and the poor cannot afford prices that become become inflated through under-regulated corporate activities. Through scarcity the world price of oil rises, people buy fewer things, the markets collapse, and the wealthy swoop in to pick up their deals.
KD Brown
2 years ago
Taxes, again...
We have suffered through 30 or more years of neo-con philosophy on the economy. Not only is this an economics with its blinders on, attempting to "grow" our economy while ignoring how it actually works, but it is also a simple guise for reinvigorating a 19th C economic system that is controlled by, and only by, those with power.
How everyone got talked into chasing after "low prices" while we were giving our jobs away I will never know. That the current "globalized" system is both economically and ecologically unsustainable has been made apparent by the recent downturn.
It seems to me that the only way out of the mess is for Canadians and British Columbians to work together to create the economy we deserve...
But it seems also that the real solution is within us. Try this: take just 10% of the money that you spend in the Big Box, and shop in a local shop, give it to a local artisan, a local producer, and then watch your money spin around in the community before it leaves town. Next? Try for 30%, more, see how much money you will save, how long the products last, how good they taste! Then go for 50% and further.
Remember, shop at the Big Box, lay off a neighbour...
Skywalker
2 years ago
No R/man
Ben Stein is the comedian.
realisticman
2 years ago
Rich Man - Poor Man
In a democracy the poor will have more power than the rich, because there are more of them, and the will of the majority is supreme.
Aristotle
There is only one class in the community that thinks more about money than the rich, and that is the poor. The poor can think of nothing else.
Oscar Wilde
Skywalker
2 years ago
R/man
Do you ever stop and think about just how lame some of your postings sound. The only people you think have some credibility are those who think exactly the same as you. Hell if child murderer Clifford Olsen said something about how great the rich and powerfull were, you would agree with him.
Of course the rich never think about money. They don't need to. Of course the poor think about money because they need food to survive. Don't you think that even Oscar Wilde, like Realisticman, could say something moronic once in a while?
realisticman
2 years ago
Being Rich
He who is contented is rich.
Lao Tzu
It is neither wealth nor splendor; but tranquility and occupation which give you happiness.
Thomas Jefferson
Skywalker
2 years ago
So R/man your point again ?
So even Lao Tzu, whoever he is and what ever point he was making, can be wrong once in a while. If the rich are "content" why do they keep accumulating wealth even after they are so old they have no way of ever spending it? If they were content they would decide that enough might be enough. It even refutes Oscar Wilde. The rich don't think about money, they just think about more money. The poor just think about survival and how money might make that certain. Therein lies the problem today and this greed will undermine our society
North of Hope
2 years ago
Lao Tzu
"He who is contented is rich." Lao Tzu
He wasn't speaking about economics or finances but about emotionally and spiritually.
Read more than the quote.
realisticman
2 years ago
Skywalker - forget the greed you imagine in others
Envy is an insult to oneself.
Yevgeny Yevtushenko
Do not overrate what you have received, nor envy others. He who envies others does not obtain peace of mind.
Buddha
Work out your own salvation. Do not depend on others.
Buddha
Peace comes from within. Do not seek it without.
Buddha
Skywalker
2 years ago
North of Hope
OK so we're discussing the widening gap between the rich and the poor. Now someone throws out a few quotes that use the words "rich", "poor", "money" along with "peace" and "contentment" etc. and I assume it is to make a particular point. With R/man's last post, I have no idea what point he is trying to make. I suspect that the quotes are forgotten every time he posts some raving about how wonderful the Campbell government and neocon economics serves the common people. So the point is a mystery.
It could be that he misses Luke with his irrelevant copy and paste information that he has decided to take Luke's place. You can't expect R/man to include the context for a quote that suits his purpose when taken literally.
Frank
2 years ago
In other words
I think a quote from Princess Bride would sum up what Skywalker is trying to convey to r/man
"Fezzik: I just want you to feel you're doing well. I hate for people to die embarrassed. "
realisticman
2 years ago
The Premise
for this story is the widening gap of incomes between the extremes of society and says it's become wider here recently. So? We have a resource based economy and there has been a world-wide economic slowdown. Many people have lost much. One could demonstrate, using cute statistics, that the wealthy have lost more than the poor. So what's the point? The OECD study is mentioned, yet if we look at this study and the latest GINI numbers (those that measure these things) we see that Canada is in fact doing quite well. Better than the US. There will always be disparities in earnings and wealth in all societies. This article is just another example of how the left like to tell their flock that they should be unhappy, angry and envious of others' perceived wealth, when any intelligent person knows that money and contentment do not necessarily go together.
As that highly respected NDPer Corky Evans recently said, "It is my belief that if you are born tomorrow in British Columbia you are richer than pretty much anyone in the world."
GINI tables here:
http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?QueryId=11112&QueryType=View
You can be upset or happy. The choice is yours.
Frank
2 years ago
Ostrich thinking
Ignore the article, ignore the stats, ignore the reality on the streets, live in bliss.
People are poor in the real world but not in r/man's world where the sky is always blue.
Skywalker
2 years ago
Corky said what on this issue?
I think Corky would be offended by your use of his words in this context. We are not talking about why living in Canada should make you satisfied with any and all economic inequalities within the country. Just because we don't live in Mozambique, we should be content with every conservative policy which gives more wealth to the already rich. Corky is far more principled than that and you should be ashamed to quote him. There will always be disparities yes but need the disparities get more pronounced because of the policies of a government selected by the majority less fortunate to be rich. A lot of poor folks work just as hard or harder than rich folks. Do you ever read what you write in this l;and of "equal opportunity"?
realisticman
2 years ago
Corky Thinking
Read the article and put it in perspective and consider where it originates, see the stats and give them a perspective too, see the reality on the streets and understand that our government is doing just as much, if not more, to help those in need as ever, live in bliss.
People are rich in the real, and Corky Evans's world, but not in Franks' world where the sky is always grey.
realisticman
2 years ago
Corky
was just saying what he believes. You can fiddle with the system and tweak the taxes and benefits but, basically, we are the lucky, and rich, ones.
Frank
2 years ago
Pffft
For the sake of helping you on the path to enlightenment let's go over your last post.
The gap between the rich and the poor is getting wider. You say to look at the source which I presume you mean the Tyee. That's kind of strange logic isn't it since you come here so one must assume you trust this source.
Then you say to see the stats. We have. We've been posting them for years. You refused to believe them and posted your usual "don't worry, be happy" quotes. Just like how a year ago you refused to believe there was a looming financial crisis. I think in a flash of brilliance you resorted to calling us all jealous of the rich back then too.
As for gov't "helping", you obviously missed all those articles about gov't forcing people in need off welfare, the last social support there is. Now they're kicking the sick and injured.
As the series author points out, this gov't was beating up on the poor, and others, long before the financial crisis you said would never happen, happened.
One can only assume you're having trouble containing the anger you feel over even right-wing writers like Jon Ferry writing negative things about your hero Mr Campbell. That must hurt, it certainly shows in your writing.
As for perspective, allow me to give you some. The rich don't care how many words you write defending them and their interests, they still don't like you and aren't going to invite you to their parties. So why do you bother? There are no brownie points coming your way.
How's that for perspective?
ME2
2 years ago
RMan
you note - quite correctly - that:
"You can fiddle with the system and tweak the taxes and benefits but, basically, we are the lucky, and rich, ones."
We are lucky to have been born in a country having vast, "surplus" resources, plentiful enough to have affored a share in them for us peasants. But that share wasn't come by out of luck, nor from the benevolence of the ever-stingy wealthy.
Rather, our right to a share has arisen from the efforts of our forebears who fought hard for civil rights, unions, and our Social Safety Net. And now, just as then, the rich want to take all that back since - as you've told us before - we haven't earned it.
As it happens, although I own my own property, if I didn't receive two Gav't pensions, OAP and CPP, I'd soon be taxed off of it. By that definition then, I'm a poor man, and I feel extremely lucky not to have been in a poor, Third-world country which lacks gov't pensions or even welfare.
I hold no grudge against "the system" for my situation, for I was given many opportunities and my mistakes have been my own. Moreover, I feel "rich" in the sense of your Lao Tsu quote:
""He who is contented is rich."
So why do I waste time on the Tyee railing against the rich and their manipulation of The System?
Simple. If it hadn't been for my forebears who agitated for the benefits I now enjoy, there's a real possibility I'd be dumpster diving.
So I've developed my own philosophy which goes something like this:
We come into this world owing a debt to those who've gone before us, making ours a better world than they found it. We can repay that debt only by doing the same for those who will follow us.
Further to that, we must realise that we are the only custodians of the many benefits we now enjoy, for as history has repeatedly shown us, the power elites would gladly see us lose them.
So to this Comments section already replete with quotes, I'll close wih another, very famous one.
Wendell Phillips (1811–84)
QUOTATION: "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty—power is ever stealing from the many to the few…. The hand entrusted with power becomes … the necessary enemy of the people. Only by continual oversight can the democrat in office be prevented from hardening into a despot: only by unintermitted Agitation can a people be kept sufficiently awake to principle not to let liberty be smothered in material prosperity."
realisticman
2 years ago
Thanks! I feel better
Thanks! I feel better now.
"...one must assume you trust this source." Trust? Frank, you aren't usually so funny. I don't trust any news source and you think that I would apply that word to this one?
But. "The widening income gap between those at the top of society effectively transforms into a social problem the economic problems of falling productivity, declining exports, a deteriorating manufacturing base and growing dependence on oil and gas and a few unprocessed commodities.". True. Even perhaps the most prolific poster here says that the economy will only improve when people start spending money again, which will greatly ameliorate the situation.
I haven't read Jon Ferry and I am not in least hurt. Life is good and judging by the sales of property in East Vancouver one has to say that this is deemed to be a good time to buy and I can absolutely assure you that those buying are locals in the social services industry.
One thing I didn't realise was how deeply the loss of the last election would affect some people. It was the NDP's to loose and they went ahead and did so in a spectacular way. Governments are generally voted out of office and the people didn't want to do it this time, so the battles rage on telling us that woe is we. Doom is here and we all hate each other.
Well, I've already had my inspiring walk along the beach this morning and I must say all those smiling 'good morning' greetings seemed sincere. It'll soon be time for a little nap before the next party.
On this special day for Christians we should remember the 10th commandment:
You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor
Amen.
G West
2 years ago
One Quotation
“There’s class warfare, all right,” Mr. Buffett said, “but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.”
Pretty much says it all....
G West
2 years ago
And Christianity
Has been at the bottom of much of that war on the poor and middle class...it too has a lot to answer for.
But go ahead, practice Zen Buddhism or follow Confucius and spend your time staring at some imaginary spot on the wall while you wait for enlightenment.
But you should also remember what industrialization and the global economy has done for China...I think you'll find that nation is about 131 on the world wide list of per capita GDP - just below Armenia and ahead of Morocco. India, another place that’s often touted as a marvelous example of the success of global Capitalism holds down position # 160 on the list.
Mind you, it isn’t as badly off as Haiti (#175) where someone, the other day, was claiming right here at Tyee what a great thing Canada’s aid and support of the ‘government’ there was…
North of Hope
2 years ago
Coveting
Realisticman, thanks for those words of wisdom. The next time I shop for food at a billionaire's store, I'll remind them of that and walk out the door. I'll refer them to you if there is any problem.
We should also remember that Christ fed, clothed and gave shelter to the needy, narrowing the gap between rich and poor. He healed the sick, something the BC Liberals find cumbersome. Maybe they would have more money for that if they didn't get such a large raise and superlative benefits.
Also remember that one of the 7 deadly sins is greed. And our greatest exemplars of such a practice are the manipulators of our economic system.
Skywalker
2 years ago
What arrogance from R/man.
"On this special day for Christians we should remember the 10th commandment: You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor"
A discussion about the increasing disparity between the rich and poor and all he can think about is that it is about "coveting". What a moronic interpretation of the issues. I might just as well remind him of Christ's instructions to the rich man who wanted to follow Him. Look it up R/Man!
Stick to the issue R/man and avoid the silly twists which show nothing more than you are desperate to justify your position to yourself. You are the only one who counts in this world. You sound just like the Russian wealthy class before the revolution hit. You can't hink of a society where people share the wealth and the opportunities even though there will never be total equality in all respects. You are a Canadian Dick Cheney.
North of Hope
2 years ago
Actually it is the coveting
Actually it is the coveting of the neighbours goods that has led to the gap between the rich and the poor. The rich want more and have the mechanisms and connections in place to get what they covet. For example, look at the IPP's. The owners of them give large contributions to the BC Liberals and the govt sets up a scheme to reward them with a 7410 in higher rates that are more than double what BC Hydro charges. The users of BC Hydro, i.e. us will pay for these artificially high rates. The rich are taking more money from the less well off, furthering the rich-poor gap.
North of Hope
2 years ago
Opps should read
The owners of them give large contributions to the BC Liberals and the govt sets up a scheme to reward them with a 2 to 3 times as much in higher rates that are more than double what BC Hydro charges.
realisticman
2 years ago
More Fun with Numbers
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/vancouver-ranks-first-for-net-worth/article1223946/
Fortunately the less well of are also doing well. As CCPA economist Iglika Ivanova wrote, "When we examine after-tax income instead of earnings, the benefit of the tax and transfer system becomes clear for the poorest 10 per cent of families with children: they are no longer the ones who experienced the largest drop in income,".
This study also shows that British Columbians are saving more than others. Good. One important and good thing coming out of the present economic slowdown is that Americans and Canadians are saving more.
realisticman
2 years ago
typo
'the less well of", well off
SharingIsGood
2 years ago
Numbers that aren't funny
Debunking Realisticman's Icons:
Having been gifted with being very good at math (no brag, just fact) and involved with numbers and stats my whole life, I assert that it has been my experience that most published neo-conservative/neo-liberal studies regarding wealth have been done using biased sets of input data. These biased numbers are then further massaged to produce the appearance of improvement in the economy or an improvement in services and/or conditions that citizens face at just about any given time when right-wing governments are in power. A very simple example of this bias can often be found in studies that use the "mean" rather than the median to show a central tendancy in relation to earnings. Error is then compounded through comparing this "mean" income with the "median"-priced house.
The Fraser Institute is very good at publishing biased studies. The two most important factors in determining success in school are never in Fraser institute reports on schools. Those factors are: the education level of the parents and the income level of the parents. Yes, there are always anomalies/outliers in any measure of tendency: there are always children who beat or do not live up to the odds, but they are not the norm. So, the Frasier Institute ranks schools based on a set of results that do not look at the most important data. They don't look at the learnings, and cultural influences/pressures surrounding children for time they are not in school. Further, there is very little difference in the results of just about any of the schools within the middle 70%; yet, a school within 30% from the top in the ranking is thought to be far superior to a school at 30% from the bottom. These are just two ways in which the biased rankings hurt students and their districts.
SharingIsGood
2 years ago
More truth about numbers
Debunking Realisticman's Icons (Continued)
A study that I find fairly bias-free about housing affordability has been conducted for 5 years by Demographia. Though it is a simple in its method, it is this simplicity that helps keep it honest or as near to the truth as most people may find. "The Demographia International Housing Affordability Survey uses the “Median Multiple” (median house
price divided by median household income) to assess housing affordability."
Of all the severely unaffordable cities in the world, Demographia places Vancouver the 4th least affordable, Victoria 7th, Kelowna 19th, and Abbottsford 25th. With about 7 one hundredths of 1 percent (0.07%) of the world's population, BC has managed to have 4 cities in the bottom 25 of the affordability list! Of the 60 centres appearing on the list, no other Canadian city was to be seen. So, we live in a huge province with an abundance of resources being shipped out for other nations to use, yet this place is very unaffordable for those living here. Further, the major market listed as the least affordable in the entire world was Vancouver!
All of the world's 87 most affordable cities are in either the USA or Canada; 10 are Canadian cities. None of these 10 cities is in Western Canada, unless one considers Winnepeg to be in the West.
Rankings of Canadian cities on the most-affordable list:
5th Cape Breton, NS
12th Thunder Bay, ON
17th Chatham, ON
17th Windsor. Ontario
24th Moncton, NB
39th Saguenay, QC
48th St. Johon, NB
48th Trois-Rivieres, QC
61st St.
80th Winnepeg,
The study may be found at:
www.demographia.com/dhi.pdf
SharingIsGood
2 years ago
errata
61st St. Johns, NL
80th Winnipeg, MB