Everybody is talking

There's no such thing as bad publicity.

...and why does everybody think that the activists and protesters should get along, the rest of the planet can't. No political party or religion is free of dissenters and extremists.

Just because we may all hug trees doesn't mean that we will embrace each others ideas and ideals.

Olympics

Looks like the Ancient Olympics is coming back only that it is in a form of protests. Being the host of this Winter Olympic Games, isn’t the government of Vancouver doing any necessary actions with regards t this protests? What if the players get harmed?

Eby and Shaw

Their arguments are ridiculous. I could understand if they were completely ignorant. Perhaps they are.

Instead of blaming the media for being BIASED and INACCURATE, they blame the window breakers for giving them an excuse. That argument is BACKWARDS and counter to any idea of "civil society", democracy, or a free press. They are happy to surrender these ideas, accept fundamental injustice as unavoidable, and instead choose to make a huge deal and criticize 2-4 people who broke a couple of windows. Ridiculous.

Eby and Shaw are big fakes of "civil society". No credibility at all.

hmmm, OK then: first: why masks?

for the same reason the police wore masks. (look at the pictures if you weren't there, the cops were hiding their faces).

Why hide your face? Because the other side cheats and you both know it. Kind of like the oympics, they have an athelete's oath not to cheat and then they have millions of dollars of drug testing.

Same way I suppose you can bribe a skating judge or influence a supreme court judge.

Riot cops wear masks so no one follows them home, protesters wear masks so no one follows them home.

second: "violence"

anyone at all can be radicalized by the violence of three meals in a row missed while others eat around you every day, or by worse: watching your kids go hungry.

Think that doesn't happen here? Food banks? Welfare? Then why is the problem bigger every year instead of smaller? Are the poor conducting an organized War On Affluence?

Some pass by on the other side with the curl on their lip saying "Never me!" but inside it's "Please. please, anyone but me!"

They got what they deserved

The whole protest movement reaped what it sowed.

It was obvious on a CTV news story (in which a cameraman was assaulted and a goon from North Vancouver subsequently charged) the other night that one of the leaders of the protesters had very close dealings with some of the so-called anarchists. None of the protesters seemed to be too concerned about this over all cozy relationship until the childish tactics of the mob in balaclavas became a public-relations disaster.

It's more than a little ironic that David Eby is feeling the wrath of the protesters. He's not there, as a representative of the B C Civil Liberties Association, to do the bidding of the protesters. He's there as a representative of an organization that is supposed to defend to the civil rights of all citizens. That includes those ordinary folk who were assaulted by the mob on Saturday, as well as the protesters. I agree that Mr. Eby has become far too closely associated with the protesters, but for the protesters to criticize him for not being closer is farcical. It's obviously they don't understand the proper role of a civil liberties organization.

The credibility of the whole protest movement has been badly damaged by the actions of a few morons. However valid the message, and I agree the message is generally valid, that message is now lost because the focus of the demonstration became provoking the police and damaging property instead of educating the public.

Get some new leaders and tell the kiddies in black masks to get lost and you might have a chance of winning back public support

Violence begets violence

The options facing citizens in an authoritarian regime are well studied and well documented. Historically, they fall into two options: violent protests and non-violent protests. The success of the latter strategies are impressive, and worth careful consideration. Gandhi, the man Jesus of Nazereth, Martin Luther King, Bertrand Russell...all employed brilliant use of non-violent civil resistance. Their success was SO powerful, we can read about them to this day.

Violent protests, sadly, are a dime a dozen. They are the favored darling of violent regimes. So favored that, if a population doesn't become violent, they'll help. It is quite simple.

Should we "blame" disempowered people for the violent protests which occur regularly around the world? Blame has several meanings which makes the question more complex. Based on sociology studies, if you orchestrate society with a large, poor underclass surrounded by a police state, you WILL have violent protests. Guaranteed. In that sense, it is predictable and unsurprising. For those in control of societal mechanisms (our elites) they have the power to change this and as such, they are more responsible and must accept more 'blame'.

Will violent protests succeed in changing elite systems? Very unlikely. Based on rational considerations, violence will beget violence. The State excels at this activity. Indeed, specializes in it. Good luck trying to beat them at their own game.

Rationally, non-violent civil resistance has the highest possible chance of changing elite structural injustices. But not all people are rational all the time, which is exactly what you'd expect from an undemocratic society based on violence.

Excellent comments, Jeffery

But I'd take it one step farther. People should avoid violence; not because of what it does to others, but because of what it does to themselves. When you resort to violence, you become no better than your oppressors. And any movement, country, or group that founds itself on violence is a dangerous thing. It has to overcome its own violent tendencies. Once violence has been shown to produce "positive" results, people will more readily use it.

Ultimately, the goal can't be to overthrow the oppressors (good luck even identifying them), it has to be to win the sympathy of the largely apathetic middle class. And you won't do that by breaking windows.

oh?

"When you resort to violence, you become no better than your oppressors." And does it not do violence to your oppressors to see yourself as intrinsically better?

Olympics-1 dead, several injuries, Protesters- broken window

Lets see so far a luge driver has been killed and several people at an outdoor concert were injured when the fence collapsed.
Looks like the luge track was so fast-makes for better tv ratings- that the guy flew off at approx 143 km. and crashed into a steel pole, killing him.
At the concert the crowd became "violent" and pushed forward until the fence collapsed within seconds of the concert starting, looks like VANOC didn't anticipate/or didn't care about unruly alcohol fueled concert crowds and several people were injured and taken to hospital.

Oh yeah, the Bay got a broken window from the "protesters".

Also David Eby has gone way beyond his jurisdiction of protecting civil rights. Perhaps a new job is in order for him.

All this talk about how the black bloc may have divided Olympic opposition, what about the actions of the riot squad Sat morn.?
Was this ok?

The majority have spoken

The debate of the direction society is going is over. Corporate greed, power and coruption is firmly entrenched and is held in place by the mitltary industrial complex. Everything we protest about is for crumbs that fall before the elite gather them up again. We get to eek out a living, for a while, as long as we play their game. The game is a dead end, and the fact that the elite still play can only point to insanity by inbreeding.

I'm ammused by protesters, who can't even get along on one little insignificant issue! No wonder we can't make any progress in society with social democracy. We self destruct and "they" know it. We're barly able to hold bake sles to save burroeing owls. They throw us a bone sometimes and create a park or world heritage site, while behind the scenes they drag the oceans clean with factory ships.

And still people vote the same. No leaders or corporate mafia loose their heads anymore unless they are so greedy and brazen they get caught redhanded and we have to send them to golf prison.

Ed Deak has given the clean and simple answer to the economic side of the equation, now all we need is one on the social side. I fear that this won't ever come to the the collective conciousness, and if it did, it will be buried like the electric car in California, or civil rights leaders in the south.

I think the game is over. At least the part about fighting over the best direction forward. The economic wheel will not slow down enogh to allow any change to it's core, and we already know what the military powers are prepared to do to protect that way of life. What's the point in getting all knotted up about it. i'd rather just point and laugh at the corporates sheeple, and community jesters trying to out spend their neighbours in a popularity contest! It's just too embarasing to watch anymore. Civil disobediance is going to be inevitable. How much more abuse will people with even minimal awarness stand before they start shooting back? You can only be pushed out the way by walmart shoppers for so long...

Protests

Destroying public property, is criminal. Throwing pies in a persons face, is juvenile. Those people deserve what they get. There are better ways to get your point across. Citizens are upset, by the, condition this country is in. It is the right of Canadians, to have good government. However, those actions, will only, turn people against you.

I can smell the coffee...

"Someone please explain to me...
why do protesters need to wear a mask. If you are afraid to show your face then don't protest." OhCanada

For the same reasons the cops wear masks, and are all dressed in protective and identity hiding gear, including clubs, shields, and guns. Security reasons.

Even "non-violent" protesters doing what Gandhi or Martin Luther King did, actually challenging the system, suffered police clubs, dogs, and yes, even assinations. (Anybody remember Medgar Evers?) Being non-violent yourself doesn't mean you are not still going to beget the violence of the established order.

Stop the bullshit. The coffee is on. Can anyone smell it?

As for the self-proclaimed "non-violence" types here, Gandhi or Martin Luther King they ain't. They actually defied and challenged the system, stood up against the police and the army. They would have never agreed to be confined to the Art Gallery lawn. They would have taken the street and proclaimed it their's anyway. (But not this crew.)

Take the system on, yes even "non-violently", or go home and take up sewing instead. (Or vote NDP, which is about as harmless a thing as one could do.)Even there, somebody could kick in your front door and kick the shit out of you and rob you. Or beget you violence for just being and so "passive" a target.

Life ain't simple. It's complicated. And "The System" won't even tolerate "non-violent" defiance of it. Try seriously and determinedly to block the doors of commerce. Shut down the polluters. Go into the Supermarket and truck out the food without paying and feed hungry families. Attempt to crash these hoity-toity Olympic party venues and load up fancy food and drink for the poor. Check it out and see. Or is non-violence just a cover for something else.

See?

Destroying public property is criminal and disgusts us. But the largest crime wave known to mankind goes on flaunting itself every day eating away our future and we don't even bat an eyelash. "Hell ya We gotta vote for Obamma, cause Bush is insane!" As if there is a fundamental difference other than the optics.

Oops, sorry. I forgot I don't care anymore.... caryy on.

masked protesters

Conspiricy Theory. Could these so-called masked vandilizing protester be in favour of the Campbell Olympics? What better way to say that the Olymics in Vancouver is a good thing by showing the world that opponites of the event is nothing but an unruling mob.

whose ox gets gored?

It’s not surprising that there’s a tendency to pretend change, resulting from violence, isn’t change, particularly when you’re on the “winning” side. Somehow the winners manage an Orwellian twist that reifies “violence” into a “sturggle for success”. No doubt this justifies continually subjugating the losers and labelling them as violent, unruly, self-centered mobs.

That violence can change elite systems is a given. What isn’t as easy to accept is that the “change” may not be what you hoped it would be. It certainly wasn’t for North American indigenous populations. It’s a story as old as humanity, and it continues to be repeated around the globe.

new word order

The Olympics are already a dry run for a new improved police state; Canada is virtually in tandem with American military and police intelligence as well as foreign policy and economy. Blac bloc agitators play into their security state plans. Feeling safer yet?

Vandalism Helps the Elites

The only way to defy an elite that prides itself on civility and lawfulness is to be MORE civil and MORE lawful, and to use your opponent's standards against them. That is why Gandhi's and MLK's tactics worked in India and America (and why it doesn't work in totalitarian countries).

Vandalism in Vancouver, on the other hand, merely confirms what our elites want the masses to believe: Olympic opponents are violent and irrational, and require a massive and overbearing security force to contain them. Whether this is true or not is beside the point. What's key is this: the elites and the vandals need each other. They feed off each other. And if the "Black Bloc" truly believes it's a threat to the elites, they are as intellectually barren as they are emotionally incontinent.

Good one, Takuan

Because conditions in 21st century Canada are exactly like those of 18th century Bourbon France. You, ah, might possibly want to include this subsequent little incident in your analysis:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reign_of_Terror

And then, you know, Napoleon.

Ah, excellent rebuttal.

I too remember how, after the Third Servile War, the Roman Republic spontaneously dissolved into a utopia of self-managed communes each governed via direct democracy. And not this:

http://richeyrich.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/sparta2.jpg

Truth in media!

"Vandalism in Vancouver, on the other hand, merely confirms what our elites want the masses to believe:"

Grapeman confirms the elite control the media and the message is relentless day after brain assaulting day. Don't make trouble, play the game, because we have this civil and lawful society don't you know. That in itself is a rather recent experiment isn't it? And the walk through French revolutionary memory lane wasn't all that long ago in terms of evolutionary time.

Seems to me we can't trust the white man... Snake oil is snake oil. Economic recovery is upon us lucky Canadians who manged our banking system with care. No Bubble here.... Protesters are dirty little communists and if you associate yourself with them we'll have to revoke your accreditation to work at our new venues.

Good thing I don't smoke dope, I hear it can make you paranoid. Of course Clinton didn't inhale and dubbaya didn't have a cocaine problem. They don't party, that would make them real people just like the rest of us. But we look to them for answers. They don't take their orders from us. The "Elite" are not imaginary, nor are they a social club. They beleive as they did in Roman times and ever since a devine right to power and rule over the masses. The fact they've perverted it to this level would cause even the 18 century French to commit suicide by guilotine.

Love the art work!

peaceful protest leaders

Vandalism is a problem for the police to handle. Did it look like the police needed help handling it?

Vandalism is a problem for the victim. Did it look like the victims (The Hudson Bay Company and Toronto Dominion Bank) needed help coping with the tragedy of their broken windows?

There are huge forces arrayed against these Black Bloc people already, why such need to pile on?

A simple "we don't advocate or support violence" is all that is needed.

An agreement to not criticize each other's tactics is a great idea, too bad it's not honoured.

"The man" must be laughing his ass off when his resisters in-fight like this. What does criticism of people who might be willing to go further than you do to your message? How inspiring is it to the people when you say "come join us in the good fight against oppression! ... but make sure you play by *our* rules!"

Congrats to the pie thrower :-)

Cry me a river to the people whining about "their" message.

All of us are masked here!

I see a bunch of pseudonyms here, myself included. Are we afraid to speak out? Are we not wearing masks here?

Vandalism Helps The Elites. (Pigs fly too.)

"Vandalism Helps the Elites"

Actually, passivity, doing nothing but standing on a lawn nowhere, or no way really challenging the system really helps the Elites... way more than a damn metal box through a BANK window.

Let's count the ways that I can serve thee. Inertia is the real gift of the masses to the Ruling Elites. Passivity. Being coy and cowardly, cowering, and doing exactly as you are told. One might as well kiss ruling class ass outright, instead of pretending what you ain't; a Gandhi or a Martin Luther King.

Time for the "non-violence bloc" to put up or shut up. Let's see what you can do besides whine and wring your hands over the hurt done to the ruling class. Dare ya. Double dare ya. :-) lol

Boo hoo. The poor wealthy and powerful. Sniffle. Or is that snivel?

EDH

edh
All of us are masked here!
I see a bunch of pseudonyms here, myself included. Are we afraid to speak out? Are we not wearing masks here?

Ooooooo. Good one. I can feel it right between my ribs. :-)

The Non-Violence Bloc won't though. They can walk on water.

V for Vendetta was just a comic book

"An agreement to not criticize each other's tactics is a great idea, too bad it's not honoured."

Yes, what the world needs now is yet another small, secretive and unaccountable group making decisions on the behalf of everyone all the while making a mockery of their purported values.

But shhhh, already, keep that on the down low. Don't want the Man to hear.

Can I be a Black Bloquiste too? Where's the next meeting? Do I get a full vote? Do I have to supply my own mask? What if I don't own anything black?

In Circles Again

Here we are going in circles again. Whatever your opinion of the "violence" of breaking windows, such actions, historically have no bearing on public support or lack of it. I have covered this ground before. Virtually without exception movements have had a militant wing that smashed things up a bit. But the end result? Slavery was abolished. Adult males and later, women got the vote. Trade unions were recognized etc. etc. To alienate the public (other than the self-proclaimed public - always reactionary to the core) you have to engage in something really horrific, not a couple of broken windows. As an example, the US Militia Movement was toast after the Oklahoma bombing.

You see, protest grows out of REAL ISSUES. And these issues don't go away just because someone uses a controversial tactic.

delivering on their promise

Love 'em or hate 'em, the Black Bloc did exactly what they said they were going to do.

In contrast, some of the security personnel who haven't played by the same rules they are tasked to uphold.

http://olympics.thestar.com/2010/article/768403--2-members-of-games-security-unit-under-criminal-investigation

In the grand scheme of things, I wonder which should be the more pressing concern?

The legacy of Canada's left

Given the history of the left in Canada, this anti-Olympic split comes as no surprise; indeed, it's almost expected.

Eby had no choice, moral or organization, but to call a spade a spade regarding Saturday's mayhem. Chris Shaw, same.

Did anyone get the badge number of the "militant" who threw the pie?

Bake Sale for Peace

Healthy carrot muffins or chocolate chip? The carrots are organic of course as is the flour, but on the other hand people will buy more chocolate chip muffins... Hmmm... of course we'll need pies too. I like the apple for aerodynamics but certainly the coconut cream does have a great splatter pattern...

What's missing from all that, anarcho

...is whether the "militant wing" had any consequential impact on the success or failure of their various movements or whether these movements succeeded or failed despite their "militant wing".

I'd suggest the great historical scoreboard might not be in your favour.

I'd have a hard time trying to describe the Union Army as a "militant wing" of anything, but whatever. You might recall another "militant wing" - the Klu Klux Klan - who were partially responsible in rolling back the freedoms of African-American to a state of de facto slavery that latest another 100 years. Until someone came along...I forget who his name was...who espoused nonviolence. Anyway, if you're going to play might is right, then the ones with the most guns and money usually win. 4 out of 5 dentists concur.

I'd also question the wisdom of looking back to the 19th century for tactical inspiration rather than looking forward. After all, we live in a world where most cell phones have a camera, if not a video camera. We should be thankful for that, btw.

The weekend warriors of the US militia movement put away their uniforms and guns after a Republican was elected President. Oddly, they've had a resurgence of late, for some reason I can't quite remember. See the work of Dave Neiwert and the Southern Poverty Law Center for more.

"And these issues don't go away just because someone uses a controversial tactic."

Thank goodness no one has suggested that.

by the by

all those newspaper boxes strewn in the streets? That private property? A few of which may be independent media, the rest not? When they started dropping those boxes on public streets in Vancouver, no permission was given or even sought. They just did it.
I actually called the city and asked what their position was, if I could say collect them for scrap metal as abandoned property. When the city replied( very vaguely) it was made clear that while the city had not approved them they were somehow deemed 'private property" - of someone anyway. So what crime was actually committed and against who by the Black Bloc throwing them around?

way to go David Eby

I am further impressed by David Eby. This is a man who actually gets results for people, a man who puts a lot of time and energy into making this province a better place.

It is really sad and disheartening to see so many fools that think that smashing windows is radical. Yeah - so radical, right.

*rolls eyes*

And asking the peaceful majority to suck it up and take a hit for the few mindless idiots who think that ... god, I don't even know what these idiots think, honestly... but whatever it is - it is twisted, lacks all pragmatism, and results in nothing but setbacks for the real movement for change.

I'm glad that these idiot tactics have been denounced. Fools who want to smash things don't have a place in my social movement. They are the anti-social a-holes who create justifications for skyrocketing "security" costs.

I am at a loss to understand what these fools thought they would achieve by acting like spoiled, anti-social brats.

What we need is more people like David Eby, and less intellectually lazy vandals.

Don't play games, Sparticus

I am referring to progressive movements. If you want a more contemporary example, try the anti-war movement during the Vietnam War. Banks were burned as well as ROTC buildings, bombs set off etc. But this had no discernible negative effect upon opposition to the war. Or the Squamish 5's actions? No discernible negative effect on the environmental movement. People are smart enough not to confuse the issues at hand with the actions of a small militant group, though the people who are opposed to any action on these issues, will, of course, bellow and howl with rage - as we have seen here.

However, saying that a minority militant action has no negative effect does not mean that activists cannot criticize or debate those tactics.

Civil Liberties

It seems to me that David Eby's job is to protect civil liberties, which includes spaces for protest, and not necessarily anyone who claims to be a protester.

spartikus

"Yes, what the world needs now is yet another small, secretive and unaccountable group making decisions on the behalf of everyone all the while making a mockery of their purported values."

I didn't see anyone forcing their decision on anyone, unless you mean the poor window being forced to break.

"But shhhh, already, keep that on the down low. Don't want the Man to hear."

I'd rather "the man" see a swarm of pissed off people. People pissed off at "the man". Some of whom are pacifist. A swarm of people only pissed off at each other aren't going to be very worrisome.

"Can I be a Black Bloquiste too? Where's the next meeting? Do I get a full vote? Do I have to supply my own mask? What if I don't own anything black?"

Yes you can! I don't know about meetings or voting. Do you own anything purple? You could start a Purple Bloc. With the rules for membership posted in plain view. Make it as regimented as you like.

That's the thing about civil unrest - leaders are not required. All you have to do is be unrestful and you're a part of it. There's no committee to go before and plead to keep your membership if you engage in "misconduct". No governing body who can accept *your* inspired vision for how the movement ought to be and set it in stone for everyone to follow. Fun eh?

to hurl or not to hurl

I am neither against the black hoods tactics, nor for them. In principle, there is a time and a place, but in this instance, the timing was incredibly off. More than one poster has remarked about fluidity of reaction and I hope that can be kept in mind in future.

This was a short lived comment on wn.com/sports before the article was taken over by breitbart and AP. Feb 18,2010.
"Olympic Alpine site may be for sale during the games"
"metacray wrote,
The people of Whistler should be worried imho. German language newspapers are reporting on the reaction of their athletes to the accomodation at Whistler olympic village and the prognosis is not good. dailygumboot.ca does an english translation from Die Zeit.
While the athletes themselves may have become used to the situation, I hardly think that workers at the resort, who have been looking forward to more affordable housing after the games, are going to be satisfied with paying up to $500K (perhaps more) for a condo with "cardboard architecture" and "paper thin" walls.
Keeping in mind also that this comes after a debate as to whether there was full disclosure regarding the operating asphalt and gravel facility, which is not only in close proximity to the complex in Cheakamus Crossing, "that may create associated dust, noise, odours and activity", but also has applied quite recently for expansion.
It appears that Whistler Development Corp thinks that it won't lose that court battle since apparently there is a clause in the buyer's contract that mentions it. Now... will they be giving full disclosure on the noise problems and shoddy construction of these soon to be condos?"

There are 3 things at play above:
1. Non performance of vanoc obligations to IOC regarding the housing of athletes.. Rogge said that acoustics were important... leading to possible non payment of those $millions performance bonuses?
2. The auction of Intrawest holdings in Whistler, which has now been put off a week.
3. The necessity to get the word out to the buyers of these properties in Whistler so that they can act accordingly.

It seems to me that Millenium also built the athletes village in Whistler, as part of their deal? Is this true?

This is how you hurt the rich, if you can find the right places to send your message... and there is a ton more to come.

Who does gnam belong to?

Anarcho...

"You see, protest grows out of REAL ISSUES. And these issues don't go away just because someone uses a controversial tactic."

Having fun yet, comrade?

Though it is amusing/quirky to see the Rabid Rightwingers and the "love-in, liberals, and vote NDP" groupies holding hands together on this one. I mean, I always knew it, but never thought I would this early in, see it so manifest.

Not sure what you think, but we just might be seeing a new door struggling to open here. (Screw "journalistic" perceptions :-)

Take care comrade. If nothing else, they sure blew the lid off the old garbage can. :-) lmao.

More...

And all it took was a goddamn newsbox through a BANK window!!!

It really is funny, how quickly these good/conventional folks, and I know they are fundamentally good folks, lost all perspective.

It has rocked their world.

A beautiful El Nino winter day here, comrade. Took my horse on a long, refreshing and re-connecting with the real world ride.

Eby

I admire Eby for standing up and saying what he thinks in the face of the left's own version of the 'tea-baggers'. There really is a remarkable similarity between the black bloc the the denizens of the far right, especially in their echo-chambered sense of certainty and self-righteousness. I feel sorry for the non-violent protesters, like my mother, for example, who are now associated with these arrogant, grandiose jerks in balaclavas.

the carrot and the stick

There's been a lot of talk here about Martin Luther King and Mohandas Gandhi and their successes in the civil rights struggles in the US and India. As for India, the UK was essentially bankrupt after the Second World War, and in addition to having food and goods rationing at home continuing until almost 10 years after the end of the war, there were massive riots all around India which made the country ungovernable. These riots led to civil war; Gandhi's success only occurred in the context of this war in which about 300,000 people were killed. (http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/india_1900_to_1947.htm)

Martin Luther King's successes were also made in the context of violence although much less severe than in India. People seem to have forgotten that H. Rap Brown, Eldridge Cleaver, Malcolm X, and Stokely Carmichael ever existed, but they were the "stick" to MLK's "carrot". The Watts ghetto burned down in 1965 and the Army was called in to stop the riots, and there were massive riots all across the USA in 1968, with many deaths and miilions of dollars in property damage, entire blocks of cities put to the torch. Black militants armed with shotguns and rifles forcibly occupied the administration building at Columbia University in New York. The civil rights struggle wasn't just MLK speeches and people singing "We Shall Overcome", there was a strong militant part as well, and it was that part which gave sufficient incentive to the Government to deal with MLK and his successors and to enact civil rights legislation.

There hasn't been a single civil rights movement in the US (or anywhere else that I know of) which has enjoyed success without the aid of militant protestors and the use of force to obtain political goals. It's unfortunate, but that's what history teaches us; the carrot without the stick gets no results.

Even Theodore Roosevelt said "Speak softly, but carry a big stick." He knew whereof he spoke, he had to deal with breaking up the major corporations of the day, which had corrupted American politics and oppressed American workers.

What games, Anarcho?

I responded to the examples *you* provided. If you think they're irrelevant...maybe you shouldn't have brought them up?

Nevertheless what, tangibly, did the Squamish 5 actually accomplish?

They're a historical blip. Ask anyone under 20,and possibly under 30, doesn't know who the they are. The vast majority of the public of any age have forgotten them.

"People are smart enough not to confuse the issues at hand"

Depends on the issue and how long that issue has been on the radar.

I hope everyone understands I'm approaching this as a discussion on tactics, and not on the issues itself, which I have great sympathy with. With that in mind this is my beef:

Day 1 of the Olympics: Medium-sized, non-violent protest.

Day 2 of the Olympics: RIOT...on a pathetically small scale, but large enough to get negative press attention and piss off the public.

The tactics from Day 1 weren't given a chance. The subsequent relevations that legal observers were asked not to attend and various anti-Olympic groups had to a sign a document not to publically criticize the actions of others is POOR OPTICS.

But okay, I'll throw this out there: If everything had gone 100% right, what was the desired optimal result of the Heart Attack protest?

streamfortyseven

Excellent post. People who get their history from movies tend to forget that India's independence and the USA's civil rights era saw a lot of violence.

Not independence, not civil rights

People who get their history from movies? Civil rights and independence! Talk about inflated ego. What was the message from the Black Mob? We need attention, and we need it pretty quick.

Thanks for nothing. And now the rest of us can start again, trying to regain credibility where it might make a real difference. Go home goofs, and let those of us who are in it for the long haul keep working.

9 years of failure

Over the last 9 years the advocates of not making waves have not only failed to maintain existing levels of service but have seen those service levels deteriorate which has resulted in increased poverty.

The public has ignored and even ridiculed their peaceful protests, labeling them "professional protesters".

The voice of the Centre-Left, the NDP, has lost 3 elections and are under pressure to move further to the Right, away from the solutions that people obviously need.

NDP mucky-mucks like Harcourt mouth the same words as Campbell does which doesn't exactly inspire people to vote NDP and which has had the obvious effect of increasing voter apathy.

The Right would not have got away with increasing poverty if people had been willing to get mad and show it. When a bully pushes you you should push back.

This again?

Wow, this is a complete replay of the article last week.

My stance stays the same. Comrades like Frank, Coyoteman, Anarcho, and Takuan have said all I would need to say on the matter once again. It is like beating your head against a cement wall really seeing many comments here.

Nonviolence has NOT ONCE worked in recorded history to create ANY social justice as a whole. There has ALWAYS been a needed radical and direct action response to go with it. A suggest a great book called, "How Nonviolence Protects The State" by Peter Gelderloos for those of you who keep spewing forth your pacifist ideology.

Wow... All of this for a few broken windows. This is incredible! By the looks of things none of you nay-sayers have ever heard of/seen/been there for protests and riots in Europe, South America, and other parts of the World. It makes last Saturday's protests seem like a Teddy Bear picnic... and they get results on a regular basis. How do I know? I have been there for them and seen the media and results come in after.

The right wing and pacifist crowds of Canada scare me. Seriously! It is a good thing I do not believe in Nationalism or Borders or I would be one of the first to be disgusted that I am a Canadian.

Black Bloc

Well, yer title says it all don't it guv? Just when it seemed there might indeed be some solidarity along comes the Black Bloc, trashes some property and now we have fissures in the movement. Boy that would have been a good tactic had anyone thought of it. Dress some cops up in black outfits, bust up some stuff and pretty soon the idiots will be fighting amongst each other.

Boy, I'll bet they wish they'd thought of doing that!

I jes keep wonderin' why the BBs wore masks. I mean it's not like the cops aren't going to see who they are when they're arrested, is it? Maybe they didn't want their moms and dads to see who they were.

anything at all that makes people angry enough

to get up off their fed-up asses and actually vote in the next election is good for me. Campbell's thieves and liars got in with a fraction of the total possible ballot. Even a coalition of Green, NDP, Marijuana Party and independents hanging on by a thread would have been better than another five years of corporate rape.

just my echo...

All this for a few broken windows and other assorted petty vandalisms? A luger lost his life and the images of his death are burned into my mind - 19 people are injured - these are just 'human error' and 'crowd mentality'. Try as I will, I cannot escape the violent imagery of Nodar's death...the photos of property damage have none of that visceral impact for me.Without a doubt, there is something pathalogical about people who decry the violence on the streets, but not in the boardrooms or the other halls of power.

I cannot speak as to whether any official bodies were complicit in Nodar's death, but surely all individuals who do not care to question or to investigate the cult of the 'spectacle' at any cost bear some responsibilty for a cruel death. Indeed, this sanctioned violence begets violence...

veganterraist said ...

Yes, it is rather spellbinding, isn't it.

Black Bloc infiltrated by police

or maybe they are the police. Google "Black Bloc undercover cops" and you'll get a snootful of agent provocateur operations, including during the SPP Union protests in Quebec in 2007 where the Surety had to publicly admit they had officers dressed up as BB anarchists. Don't think they'd do it here? Ask yourself why it was so easy for the BBs to trash Hudson Bay windows and such.

It sure gets all the sheeple tut tuting about how nasty the protesters are.

Hilarious

I find the allusions people make to the great struggles of the past hilarious. No one in the French revolution was asking for free food, homes and drugs for doing nothing but shooting up which is pretty much what this "Black Bloc" is asking for. There would be far more public support for these protestors if they actually had a leg to stand on so to speak.

Until there is actual economic problems that are created by the "system" that impoverish the majority of people, there will be no popular support for such movements. The fact of the matter is, the poverty on display in the DTES is manufactured by the people that live there. They even dress up their own poverty, refusing to shave, wearing worse clothes than they have access to. No hunger exists in the DTES, in fact according to recent reports in the Straight, there is almost too much food being sent there.

indeed

"Until there is actual economic problems that are created by the "system" that impoverish the majority of people, there will be no popular support for such movements."

Guess what's around the corner?

Sorry, Spartacus!

Sorry Spartacus. I thought you were playing games with me, but I realize that you simply don't understand what I have written.

As but one example. The Squamish 5 as a blip. This is the very point I am making. Militant minorities do not deflect from the actual problem that is causing protest (both "violent" and "non-violent.". "Violent" minorities have been accused of turning people against the anti-Olympics movement. I have shown historically how "violent" actions by a minority do not do this, since people are more intelligent than that.

Ah yes, Peter Gelderloos

...who paints non-violent advocates with such a broad brush even Gandhi wouldn't know if he was being discussed.

Yes. All this for broken windows. On Day 2 of the Revolution. Crazy.

What has the Gelderloos thesis and the Black Bloc tactic actually accomplished in a real and tangible sense beyond the symbolic inconviencing of symbolic summits? Real-world examples are excellent.

It's all well and good to talk about theory. But, you know....put your whiteboard down and look at the scoreboard. The anarchist movement is over 150 years old and other than for a few months in Catalonia it's never been anything other than fringe. You should ask yourself why.

The biggest blow to capitalism lately hasn't been the work of masked vigilantes, but the failure of capitalism itself. And look who the disenchanted are flocking to...yeah, not anarchism...but the Tea Party movement.

This was a self-inflicted debacle.

Infighting after the Backfire

What was the violent demonstration about? Some posters keep repeating that it was just against the 'Games', others say it was about 'poverty', if we look at The Tyee's slide show YouTube clip titled "News
The Drama of Dissent Explained", it was also about "Climate", 'The Environment', against 'Torture', against 'War', against the Premier. Some here say it was about 'Homelessness'. It certainly wasn't about hunger, was it?

veganterraist says that, "Nonviolence has NOT ONCE worked in recorded history to create ANY social justice as a whole." He hasn't heard about National Health-Care in Britain and the Beveridge report, which was also the motivator for the same in France. There were no protests, the governments of the day just brought it in. Same in Canada, wasn't it? Unemployment insurance was also brought in Britain and Germany a hundred years ago but it wasn't because of riots.

vancurber

There's a lot of poverty in BC outside the DTES.

If you think StatsCan is using fake numbers concerning those levels of poverty just convince them to change those numbers.

But I bet Campbell would have already asked that if he thought the StatsCan numbers weren't true.

Violent minorities

You need to take this on a case by case basis. The Squamish 5 were so small potatoes do they really count?

Bloody kids 2

Isn't there some sort of irony award for citing a piece on child poverty from the Olympic host broadcaster from April 2009 on a thread about the effectiveness of radical tactics in 2010?

spartikus

Why do you think the "Tea Party" movement enjoyed the success it has?

What you call the "failure of capitalism" has resulted in more electoral success for the Right and that can't be blamed on violent protests because there weren't any.

The Black Bloc should be welcomed by the moderate Left, it gives them a donkey to pin their failures to. Before the Black Bloc was around they complained about Carole James.

basics

There is plenty wrong with the world we are living in. I don't deny that for a second - however I want us to each use our energy to its best effect.

I think that people who are willing to get arrested for their beliefs are an important part of any movement - however - what I can't condone is causing mayhem - there is a difference.

If the Blac Bloc was using their anger to actually effectively block the worst excesses of capitalism I would have nothing but support for them - if they chained themselves to trees or laid in front of bulldozers in Sooke Potholes - you know what I mean?

I respect civil disobedience - but there is a difference between radical, non-violent actions aimed at achieving a specific goal - and vandalism...

I am not even anti-graffiti - I see graffiti as art - but smashed windows? That is not beautiful, and it achieves nothing - it is violence, plain and simple.

"Before the Black Bloc was

"Before the Black Bloc was around they complained about Carole James."

lol - I love you Frank

moonbug

so you'd prefer multi-colored tar and quick sketches carved into the windows with diamond-tipped styli or glass cutters? That's art, actually... Anarchists aren't protestors, they're not making a plea to authority to change its policy, they're in favor of getting rid of the authority and the system that authority is part of, hence the smashed windows. It's like the original Boston Tea Party, where several millions of dollars (in today's money) worth of tea was dumped into Boston Harbor by the Sons of Liberty, the Boston Mobocracy. Their aim was not to ask for change, it was to get rid of the system. No Black Bloc has ever come near to doing the damage caused by a single action of the Sons of Liberty; they also broke down the doors of Governor Hutchinson's house, broke the windows, smashed the furniture into kindling wood, threw it out the windows and burned it, and ran the carpets, drapes, and linens through the mud. They destroyed the place and probably caused a million or two dollars in damage there, too. The Black Bloc is remarkably sedate and civil by comparison.

Frank

HAH...point taken.

Beveridge Report and more

Really? The Beveridge Report. You are listing this as non-violent? Wow!

Yes I am familiar with this event and the health care of Britain. It is funny that you mention this report considering it was implemented during and due to one of the most grotesquely violent times in our history. (Well we have many, but WWII was pretty high up there in violence don't you think?)

The Beveridge Report was a response and initiated due to great amounts of violence, ie, WWII.

As for the comment about Peter Gelderloos. If you would actually read what he has to say you would see that a lot of his commentary is on the movement of Gandhi and how misinformed people are about that point in time. The same with Martin L. King's involvement in his era.

You want whiteboard. There are hundreds of small victories etched on that board from the last centuries. They may not have brought down Democracy or the State as know now, but they need to be mentioned.

Not only was there anarchist "victories" in Catalonia, but also in Andalucia, Zaragoza, and other regions of Spain. What about the victories in 19th century France and Italy. What about victories on the street such as 99' Seattle and Genoa 01', what about the Boston Tea Party or does that not count because it is less than 150 years in the past? How about the radical feminists and radical queers causing some damage many times during protests? How about the Stonewall riots of 69' NYC? Black Panther Party? What about the aspects of anarchy in everyone's daily lives that they fail to take notice of?

I have not once claimed nor will I do so that the black bloc will clinch a win in the fight against overthrowing the state. I am only stating that I supporte and are proud to be one of them because in my view they are the ones being proactive in the fight. All of you who seem to think that Democracy works and that it even matters if we vote NDP or Liberal or whatever are seriously jaded. Democracy DOES NOT WORK, you think we would have figured this out by now. Do you want to vote for puppet number 1, 2, or 3? It's your choice!

It was asked on this post was the desired results if the Heart Attack were to go off 100% and the answer is obvious. It was even advertised. First and for most to cause massive traffic delays for people going towards Whistler village. Secondly it was to show that there is indeed a diversity of tactics, and therefore feelings on how protesting should be gone about. It showed people locally and around the World that there are people who are not willing to sit back and do things peacefully because that is what the authority want. There are still people who do not give a shit what authority says and who will fight to defend their freedoms.

Peaceful protests such as the one on Friday may be fun to watch and a great party to be a part of. But what point do they get across when no one is challenged, especially the ones in charge.

This cement wall is starting to hurt...

moonbug

"If the Blac Bloc was using their anger to actually effectively block the worst excesses of capitalism I would have nothing but support for them "

Where did you get your information about what the protestors were doing from? The Owe-lympics-sponsoring media?

I'm quite sure that's why it wasn't mentioned that the HBC window that was smashed had Olympic merchandise in it. Or that the bank window that was smashed was a Visa-advertising window - also an Owe-lympics sponsor. And I'm sure I heard it said that a CTV cameraman was assaulted, not the ones from CBC or other media. If there was a Rona downtown, I bet that window would have a hole in it too.

If a single one of you here has used your Visa card in the last four years, bought from Rona in the last 3, paid a dime to Canwest Goebbels for a paper or advertising, watched CTV, drank a Coke, bought an Acer anything, bought gas at PetroCanada, bought your cheap Chinese crap at Hudson's Bay, bought your RRSP or done your banking with RBC... damn near done anything in the last couple of years with any of the forty-odd sponsors on this list...
http://www.vancouver2010.com/more-2010-information/about-vanoc/sponsors-and-partners/vancouver-2010-sponsors/
...then you need to get your own houses in order before you complain about anybody else's tactics here.

The corporate shills who brought you this world-wide multi-billion-dollar farce insist that it's not personal - they're only after your personal consumer dollar. Well, if your consumer dollar is your greatest weapon, against what enemy are you aiming it?

Because your mouths are emitting friendly fire.

Jeffrey J - part 1

I hardly know where to begin with your first post. I'll just address a couple of the most egregious misunderstandings, and perhaps you'll revisit the whole thing on your own.

" The success of the latter strategies [non-violent protests] are impressive, and worth careful consideration. Gandhi, the man Jesus of Nazereth, Martin Luther King, Bertrand Russell...all employed brilliant use of non-violent civil resistance."

Jesus died, and his success was only declared by followers who did not know him, some 300 years later, long after the destruction of the Jewish nation Jesus was sent to reform. King died before his first major victory was declared. Bertrand Russell (???!), being on the wrong side of the class line, was largely ignored, and his jail stint made him popular with everybody except the English, who thought him a gadfly and unworthy of serious consideration.

There's no magic or inherent value in peaceful protest. The one you didn't mention that others like to, is the fall of the Berlin Wall, in which 100,000 peaceful Germans walked up to their guards, and said they would cross the wall, whether the guards put down their weapons or not. The magic was in the fact that the guards, still fully prepared to fire on Germans, demanded direct orders to do so from the military headquarters, which itself was waiting for direction from the Politburo. Nobody will ever know what happened in the Politburo, but the military command staff interpreted their reticence as an order to refuse more bloodshed than the several hundred lives they had already taken.

And that's the important part. You can only have peaceful ways winning over the hearts and minds of a people when you have had more than enough bloodshed, and all the people are sick and tired of the bloodshed.

Part 2

Gandhi lost the lives of 50,000 of his followers to six separate actions against British rule before the British troops, sickened, said "Enough!"

Kenya's Mau-Mau uprising is particularly instructive, in that the original resisters insisted that civil disobedience was the only way to achieve their ends of fair treatment from the British Home Office and from the local British settlers. The British eventually achieved military success at a cost of 11,000 Kenyan lives, but ended up giving into every Kenyan demand, from land reform, villagization, crop control and access to markets, to unfettered unionization and basic human rights, which were suspended, not by declaration, but by practice during the uprising.

As mean as the Kenyans got, the British got meaner, and lost their humanity in the process. Eventually they recovered some semblance of their humanity, but only at a cost of full and equal participation by natives in their country's affairs.

So I have to ask, for success, are you willing to risk the lives of others? I see no examples of success anywhere that did not come at that cost. And I see few people willing to pay that cost. It's far easier, like x4estworker, to sit in front of your TV and hope it doesn't happen to you.

”Rationally, non-violent civil resistance has the highest possible chance of changing elite structural injustices.”

Dead wrong. Rationally, war has the highest possible chance of changing elite structural injustices. That’s why there’s so much of it. It also comes at the highest cost. But because none of us attends classes in school that teach courses in costing out societal change (except perhaps those who attend Royal Military College, West Point or Sandhurst), we have no experience at it, and often jump into the opportunity without evaluating the consequences, like so many other human things we do.

We’re optimists, even when we’ve no cause to be. Social change, when possible, is difficult, dangerous and deadly - just ask Ginger Goodwin. I invite you to check the price of the status quo, and then see if you can figure out a strategy that costs less. Because the cheap solution so far has only gotten us further behind than ever.

And all this....

...out of the mouth of an attender at a peace church (Mennonite) who still struggles to marry the miracle of Christ's small successes with the realities of the significant losses suffered every day by millions of people around the world.

I'm not inherently violent, but I certainly enjoyed my lessons years ago in martial arts. Nevertheless, my own way is still merely to shame the government at its most vulnerable - when it has important guests - by dressing up in my shabbiest, and pushing my shopping cart around the city collecting bottles. You're all welcome to join me. It won't be successful, but I think those of you sensitive to Asian culture will know what I mean when I say that Gordo and the IOC suffer loss of face with every foray into downtown I essay. And my glee knows no bounds.

I just wish I had some weeping pustules to wear to enhance the effects. Oh well, I'll just come back here and read some more of them instead.

What are you protesting?!

My views on the Olympics protests thus far:

1. My housemate, one of several, probably hundred, "organizers" of these protests, who refused to go see any of the brilliant and varied arts events happening through the olympics. Why? They were being funded, through the Olympics, by a government which has cut arts funding. So supporting the free arts and artists taking part is supporting the government. huh?!

2. The initial 'celebration' outside the opening ceremonies. Definitely weren't 3000 people there like I read somewhere. I would guess 600 in the moderately involved or greater category. And I was horribly confused... one chant over here, someone speaking in a loudspeaker over here... where was the message. What is the message? Is there a message other than 40+ self-interest groups whining and trying to be heard over the next self interest group?! So the events on Saturday was no different than the previous evening... just another self-interest doing their thing, but probably toning it down. So why all the bickering about these black guys "splintering" the movement? Based on seeing Friday's gathering, there was never any one 'movement'

3. Think it was Tuesday evening outside Chapters... blocking a main public transit corridor. This crowd of about 150 was in my way... so I walked through the center, next to the guy speaking in the loudspeaker, and through the other side... as I brushed by people and through the mob, I looked at everybody. And not one single person in that mob, as I walked through the center, made eye contact.

Now, I am one of those annoying Vancouverites who smiles and says hi to random people as I walk or jog the ocean pathways... and I tell you, it is tough getting responses in this city... except now, during the Olympics. But... walking through these people, I was reminded only of the thousands of selfish, self-absorbed people who live in this city.

Not the type of people truly interested in community building and relationships (which is how effective change is carried out), but through selfish and fractal promotion of their personal stubborn ideals.

r'man

I don't understand your claim there that the social policies brought in by Germany in the late 19th century or by Canada and others before and after WW2 weren't the result of fear.

There were huge revolutions in Europe in 1848 that created a lot of space for liberal politicians to act in the following years.

The Paris Commune caused more fear among the ruling classes than a corps of French troops which is why the Prussians allowed their supposed enemy, the French military, to crush it. Because the Commune was the bigger threat.

The Socialist party in Germany continued to gain strength after the Franco-Prussian War and although it was banned it continued to get more and more people elected to the new German parliament. Bismarck's introduction of pensions and other social programs have to be seen in the light of 1848, 1871 and the growing strength of Socialism in Germany. He was trying to choke off the party's air.

In Canada you had the Winnipeg General Strike of 1919, and you had marches and riots during the Depression. During the war politicians made a lot of promises that things wouldn't be the way they were in the 1930's.

vcoyote

"Is there a message other than 40+ self-interest groups whining and trying to be heard over the next self interest group?"

How is calling for an end to child poverty or whatever, "self-interest"?

I assume it wasn't little kids you saw clamouring for an end to the policies that have increased child poverty?

Reading your post you seem to be the most self-interested whiner of all. You're upset about how protests affect you personally.

Why not instead listen to those "40+ groups" and find out if their issues are legitimate rather than waiting for 39 of them to go away?

So Canadian!

Talk, talk, talk! --
this is so typical mealy-mouth Canadian, "We do not like what we see, but what can we do!"

Oh right why do we not go for a peacefull march, that will teach them!

One poster got it right saying that nothing changes til the rivers run red!

So, put up or shut up already!

Zalm, Frank and Streamfourtyseven...

I thought the three of you did an excellent analysis on the illusions, successes and failures of "non-violence" AND "violence" as cures for all the social ills of humankind.

There is too much naivety and absence of knowledge of real history, when it comes to both these role methodologies. You brought us not just idealistic but naive claims, but useful and instructive examples of the real history.

Folks in BOTH camps need to be brought up to speed on this history, and not just to echo conventional history from obfuscation attempts by the established order and its "propaganda" media. Though I must say, based on just my own reading of the last few days, that it is much more the "conventional moderate left" that is clearly out of touch with this history and current reality here.

Very useful stuff from the three of you.

You folks have done such a fine analysis here that I will just go back to my original observation of some days ago: All sides in the evolving "Resistance" here, whether they are aware of it or not, or whether they want to admit it or not, actually need each other, and ARE already in the process of learning from each other. And that doesn't mean they have to agree in the end on, or use the same tactics.

"There hasn't been a single civil rights movement in the US (or anywhere else that I know of) which has enjoyed success without the aid of militant protesters and the use of force to obtain political goals. It's unfortunate, but that's what history teaches us; the carrot without the stick gets no results." wrote streamfourtyseven.

And like one of these three noted above me here somewhere, even old FDR, that child of the ruling class reformer of capitalism in the Great Depression and last Great War era in the US, understood the importance of the connection between the carrot and the stick. And we should not forget it either, or over-emphasize the importance of one or the other.

Both camps will have their roles to play, because neither side can prevent what each other is going to do anyway. Hopefully a progressive future can emerge out of this ruling class greed period, as "peacefully as possible", we should all hope.

Just be aware, in the back of the mind somewhere, of the agents de provocateur. They are the other fact of this "Resistance" development, and will doubtless exist in the non-violence camp as well, make no mistake. Which doesn't mean we should be overly preoccupied about it either. The emerging struggle will still have to be waged nonetheless.

talk talk?

Sir Winston Leonard Spencer Churchill (1874–1965)
"To jaw-jaw is always better than to war-war."

and you can bet the old rum-pot knew a thing or two.

history's bigger picture

"The anarchist movement is over 150 years old and other than for a few months in Catalonia it's never been anything other than fringe."

I would argue that many of the tribal and pre-agricultural societies of the world fit within the boundaries of anarchism. By that measure, anarchy for good or ill, has been around for thousands of years, and has been relatively successful.

coyote

"All sides in the evolving "Resistance" here, whether they are aware of it or not, or whether they want to admit it or not, actually need each other"

Yes, we do need each other and even when we disagree we have to understand there will be a variety of tactics and we shouldn't trash each other.

So having said that will you vote in the next election? You don't have to join me voting NDP, in fact I think seeing more votes for other left-wing parties be they anarchists or a Workers party or whatever would be very useful. I just want you to vote.

squalidarity

In the discussions following Geoff Dembicki’s “Arrests, Beatings as Saturday Protest Turns Violent” I wondered how much the Black Bloc has more in common with the system. Now I read statements like:

“…it violated an agreement -- tacit or not -- that no group should publicly criticize the actions of others.”

What a cozy parallel to the notorious muzzle clause:

“the Artist shall at all times refrain from making any negative or derogatory remarks respecting VANOC, the Winter 2010 Olympic and Paralympic Games, the Olympic Movement generally and any of its sponsors.”

Churchill speaks

Churchill['s quote above was given at the White House in the context of America's nuclear buildup against the Soviet Union, right after John Foster Dulles announced that America's policy of Soviet containment would henceforth be carried out by means of "massive [nuclear] retaliation" if Russia were ever to invade any portion of Europe. The Soviets responded with their own fiery rhetoric, which led later commentators to conclude these policies represented a global policy of mutually-assured destruction, with broad consequences for all mankind, all out of proportion to the problem presented by Communism.

Churchill, recognizing that America wanted to make an omelette by breaking everyone else's eggs instead of their own, sought to calm the fears of Europe and restrain America.

Of course, this was at the exact time when Churchill was sending thousands of British troops to Kenya to put down the aforementioned Mau-Mau uprising....

Words are important, yes, but context is everything. Rather like preparing and serving a fine dinner in a sewage treatment plant.

Biscotti

You write "In the discussions following Geoff Dembicki’s “Arrests, Beatings as Saturday Protest Turns Violent” I wondered how much the Black Bloc has more in common with the system. Now I read statements like:

“…it violated an agreement -- tacit or not -- that no group should publicly criticize the actions of others.”

What a cozy parallel to the notorious muzzle clause:

“the Artist shall at all times refrain from making any negative or derogatory remarks respecting VANOC, the Winter 2010 Olympic and Paralympic Games, the Olympic Movement generally and any of its sponsors.”"

Except it's *not* a parallel. The VANOC clause is an example of a "contract of adhesion"; it's "take it or leave it", it's not arrived at as the product of a process of fair bargaining between equals, or of any bargaining at all. It's oppressive and over-reaching by its very nature.

On the other hand, the agreement not to criticize tactics was negotiated between actors with equal power, there was no coercion involved, there was mutual subjective agreement, there was consideration (each side abstained from performing some action which it could have performed status quo ante) - and then there was breach.

The only law amongst anarchists is the private law of contract, the only means of enforcement is the dissolution of the contract and perhaps the refusal to form future contracts, and the fact that the word about deal-breakers gets around.

Anarchists do in fact possess a form of capital, it is their reputation for doing (or not doing) the things they said they were going to do; a bad reputation is a destroyer of mutual aid which is the foundation of anarchy.

context?

welcome to British Columbia.
There is no chance whatsoever of a revolution in the streets in the near future. There is hardly any chance of getting a majority of eligible voters out to the polls come next election. There is no chance of getting rid of the current band of grabbing, lying scum any other way.
These are our chances. Period.

Have some people earned the right to protest??

Lots of slagging comments about the Liberal government's "violence" against people and about how corporations control our lives etc.

Those posts have got me curious.

Just how many of the "oppressed" people posting on this list actually got out and actively supported the NDP or some other party in the last election? How many of you actually voted? Or are you content to sit back and wait for the reincarnation of Che Guevera to show up and lead the revolution?

takuan

Well, if the voters aren't tired of the "current band of grabbing, lying scum" then they just haven't suffered enough, in which the best solution from the anarchist standpoint is to absolutely ensure that the "grabbing, lying scum" get absolute and total control of the government and that they enjoy free rein in looting ang grabbing everything they can. Only when the level of suffering is so great that people can't stand it anymore will the possibility of any sort of real change occur. That point obviously isn't now, so the heat has to be turned up a notch or two...

gnam

I guess I meant to ask if you had a blog somewhere or just stick to commenting.

Other than:

http://www.journalofcommerce.com/article/id34383

I've been concentrating on Whistler which I'm pretty sure, if my memory serves, was built also by Millenium as part of their deal.

The original budget for the athletes village was $125 million. It would be more than interesting to find out exactly where the further $875 million went, why the city (Sullivan/Ladner) committed itself to an 11% loan with fortress (millenium/intrawest), and why it was selling that last waterfront property to fortress for only $175 million. What I do know about this contract boggles my mind, and whoever signed it did not have the best interests of the city in mind.

Might also want to investigate Beaudry's profile at seventhavenuelit.com which says "Beaudry’s expertise also extends into the corporate world
as a successful communications consultant with clients ranging from Intrawest and Whistler/Blackcomb to.... ". Then we have Ladner who, as chair of that property fund, pushed for the $100 million to Millenium. When he lost the election over it, he as much as said 'what's the big deal with $100 mil when there is over 6 billion in that fund'. As we know, his sister and Beaudry's wife, Wendy Ladner-Beaudry was murdered early 2009.

Then we have the demand by fortress around feb 1 to our fed gov for $90 mil.. news supressed... the feds settled for $50 mil. No idea what's going on there.

I feel a scandal of the mob kind coming on.

And you can count on greed

And you can count on greed and stupidity marching hand in hand, in Canada as in America, the people on Wall Street have, with their bailout, destroyed the system on which they based their depredations; the fact of the destruction is not now apparent, it's like the ice on the foredeck of the Titanic, the slight vibration and the stopping of the forward motion of the ship. It'll take about five years or so, but this system is joining the Titanic on the ocean floor. The government is in a feedback loop, a death spiral, of trying to finance interest payments with issuance of new debt...

sigh...

kids just don't have the mileage to know just how much humans can endure and tolerate. The idea of making things intolerable to the point of forcing improvement is as old as Lenin (in the current political mythopoetica, far older in fact).

Look at the shithole of North Korea: mass starvation, arbitrary public executions, Little Kimmie's face everywhere... Yet no uprising.

I don't know if you are rooting for the honourable naive or trying to feed the futile flames to benefit the other side.

squamish 5

Since they were mentioned here repeatedly, its worth quoting from one of the Squamish 5 book on the question of direct action:

""There are many different forms of direct action, some more effective than others at different points in history, but in conjunction with other forms of protest, direct action can make the movement for change more effective by opening avenues of resistance that are not easily co-opted or controlled by the state. Unfortunately, people within the movement weaken their own actions by failing to understand and support the diverse tactics available. Instead of forming a unified front, some activists see the sabotage of destructive property by protesters as being on the same level as the violence of the state and corporations... If we accept that all violence is the same, then we have agreed to limit our resistance to whatever the state and corporations find acceptable. We have become pacified. Remaining passive in the face of today's global human and environmental destruction will create deeper scars than those resulting from the mistakes we will inevitably make by taking action."

NO!

"If we accept that all violence is the same, then we have agreed to limit our resistance to whatever the state and corporations find acceptable."

NO!

I spent some time with one of the Five. All I saw was the tragedy of the individual.

We must not remain "passive", we must transcend.

and your point is?

Great article , thanks for sending.

So what are you objecting to? Her statement is a warning against becoming pacified?

What do you mean by 'the tragedy of the individual'?

black masks and vandalism

The idea that the vandalism and violence committed in the Sat 13th protests is a discredit to the protesters and the issues is just an excuse to look away and ignore the issues. The issues are the same regardless of what took place in the protest. The general pop is looking for a reason to ignore the issues of Gov't spending and cuts to all public programs.

First Nations and Angry White Guy Beer Hall Putsch

David Eby sure found out the hard way how much he is appreciated by his peers in the civil or now the uncivil protest movement. Here's a guy who is trying to protect civil liberties for everyone, being attacked (albeit with a pie) for expressing a relevant view that the protesters dislike. How hilarious! So the protesters' message is that, "We want to create a better society but will threaten violence on anyone who disagrees?"

Eby is right. Last Saturday's actions lost all of you protesters the support of the general public. It only benefitted the security forces who now have the support of the public behind them. Lashing out against the public and destroying private property (even if it belongs to evil capitalists) is simply bad PR and demagoguery.

The guys advocating violence have to take a page from Hitler's or Mao's rabble rousing play book to really make a difference. You gotta expand your constituency and be inclusive to drive your movement. You gotta hone your message and demands. Radical First Nation claims just sail over the public's heads. Forget about being or trying to influence political parties. None of you are ready yet to offer yourselves up for election.

You gotta stage something akin to Hitler's putsch and purge yourselves of constructive people like Eby. Looks like you already did that. Then step up to authorities with the popular tactics of the Squamish Five in this post 911 era. I'm sure that'll win you plenty of support and respect in the community.

But, then you guys don't want to win support from the public. You just want to stage a coup and seize power. Good luck. If you guys are smart you'll apologize to Eby.

Threatened other protestors more

A threat to the Elite? Are you kidding? A broken window? Uh, the Elite eat dinners that cost as much as broken windows. Nothing the Black Block can ever do will threaten the Elite. The real threat was to other protestors. Peaceful protestors who's safety was compromised. I myself would have come to my first protest in about 25 years, I had my sign ready to go, but I was threatened away by the Black Block.

streamfortyseven

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I'm familiar with consensus decision making, bases of unity, affinity groups, etc. And I agree about anarchist political capital. But why restrict criticism? Why shouldn't anyone have the right to publicly disagree with the actions of others?

On the one hand, the tolerance for a "diversity of tactics" comes across as liberalism. Then there's an agreement not to criticize others. Sorry, it just sounds authoritarian to me. All very mask-uline, too ;-)

What I'm getting at, though, is the tendency of many groups that take on an "Us against Them" approach to end up internalizing - consciously or unconsciously - many aspects of their opponents. I wonder if this is why the BB seem like caricatures of activists to many in the public.

Too bad there's no Angus Reid poll asking a large number of Canadians if the BB inspires and illuminates, or discourages and confuses!

ummm...

"You gotta stage something akin to Hitler's putsch"...

Why? The current governments are doing a fine job of alienating British Columbians and Canadians alike by their disdain for democracy and the politics of cronyism.Sooner or later they will be tossed out.
Cliche as it is, the 'movement' of the left is indeed, a movement. The paltry fixes proposed by (mostly) unimaginative old men (and a few token women) are not what the 'movement' aspires to.
'Democracy' is something felt in the bones, practised in the home, and the school, and the community...it is lived and breathed every moment of every day by engaged citizens.For sure, it does not involve a group of people blindly following a gallant (or otherwise) leader...but deciding for themselves what is best for their communities, their provinces, their country. I suspect that may be fearful for those of you who believe it consists only of attending the ballot box occasionally...Never the less, democracy lies in the disagreement, not the agreement.

one further point...

"Have some people earned the right to protest??" asks x4estworker.
Please, study up on the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.One does not have to 'earn' rights in Canada...a notion I know some business leaders are thoroughly disgusted with. But yes, we are born into, or acquire these rights by virtue of becoming Canadians. Shocking, but true.