Such a Strategy Would Marginalize the NDP...

... among the middle-of-the-road swing voters even more.

The Glen Clark/ Bill Tieleman strategy.

I certainly would like to see it.

2013 will be a difficult win

for a James-led NDP. I think Premier Campbell was a liability in the past election. Premier Campbell will likely step down after the Olympics and the Liberals will pick a leader that is less egocentric and more charismatic. James could not beat Campbell so she will be hard pressed to defeat a Liberal leader who is actually liked by the general populace.

G West I disagree

There was lots wrong with the campaign. There was no one strong message. There was too much negative and not enough positive. And there was a leader who just does not resonate with the voter.

The media hurt, yes, but they've always done that and we've won in spite of them and their bias.

The 5,000 votes may as well have been 50,000; the end result is the same. We lost. The province lost. We didn't get enough votes. And now we HAVE to move on, or we'll have the same result next time.

Yes, Carole is a very nice honest person, but that doesn't get you votes. IMHO, the very nice part helped contribute to the party's loss. For example,when comments were made about her not having experience in business, she didn't try to defend herself. Muteness is not an asset in a campaign. If she couldn't stand up to the Liberals, how could she stand up to other challenges facing her? Like flakey party polices (the gender equality nonsense that cost lots of votes, the hiring of a dinosaur for a campaign manager).

She should do the right thing and call for a leadership review at the next convention.
If she doesn't, I guarantee you the members will.

And BTW, I don't think gender played as large an issue as you think. Just an opinion from a woman who's been a party member for 25 years.

enough bleeding hearts, uprising is next

"You're getting screwed and you're getting screwed because businsess runs everything."

Now, that would have been honest!

There is a class warfare except the poor do not realize it.

Slowly but surely the poor are being victimized, these days by relentless propaganda, instead of by the police truncheons as in the olden days.

If the NDP will not stand up for the poor, then let them continue to suck up to the chanbers of commerce; new parties will form instead.

What I want to know is

what is wrong with the voters in this province? Half of them didn't show up.

The political candidates may suck but the voters, they take the cake.

Wagons Left

Pilon is right. The Bill Good's, Vaughn Palmer's and Keith Baldrey's of the world are wrong.

James is a Harcourt type centrist and she lost. Meanwhile 52% of the population didn't vote. That's where the growth potential is, not fighting over scraps at the friction point between the Libs and NDP, where there are less than 50,000 possible NDP voters.

Campbell runs a right-wing government because he knows that's where his votes are. If he moves to the centre he will lose. The NDP has to learn the same lesson and apparently they have.

oh. my. god.

Well...the municipal elections are every three years. Gregor is up in November 2011. That would actually be a good time to make a run provincially. I guess we can take three more years of this provisional, interim seat-warming.

Carbon tax

The election was lost when the NDP decided to fight the carbon tax and disingenuously spin it as a gasoline tax. They led with this opposition tactic, ceded Campbell the environmental high ground and spent half the campaign trying to find "environmentalists" to attack climate campaigners and the Liberals.

Anyone who said anything good about the carbon tax was soundly denounced on this discussion board as a sell out and Liberal sycophant. Anyone who supported the NDP was praised as a "real" environmentalist.

If the party manages to open itself up to real policy ideas on climate change there might be a chance of reclaiming the lost ground. Smugly offering policy solutions three years into the mandate just won't cut it anymore. Neither will offering up solutions that depend on shutting down the capitalist economy, like some deep ecologists propose.

And it isn't environmentalists who are the opinion shapers on climate. So it's not a question of catering to the "green" vote by parading key environmentalists out at election time. The public already gets it and that's how Campbell won. He provided the first and only meaningful climate policy in Canada and did it without alienating his own voters. We NDP'ers attacked that policy and alienated our own voters.

He created the perfect wedge and we handed it to him to use on us.

"media bias against the NDP"

Friend, the "media" does not talk the crap about CJ that regular people do. You should hear them sometimes, it is awful. And, yes, lookist and sexist. She could overcome that by being a great spokesperson for a compelling vision... lol.

Yammer

I'm not sure that Gregor is a Dipper. And he's just missed his chance to prove otherwise. I think if Gregor were to take over the NDP the turnout next election may fall even further. Left-wing voters won't support him.

By fawning all over Campbell and ignoring James in this election I doubt he will ever be anything more than mayor of Vancouver.

I'm with GWest--personally

I'm with GWest--personally outside the polling numbers--I like Carole James--she is a whistle clean politician--she has performed well in 2 elections--and frankly looks very good for 2013.

I would just keep playing straight ahead ball--and if I were her--I'd let someone like myself--who knows how to bring out the next tier of greatness from people--allow me to put some lovely touches on a very nice work of political art.

Carole James is good for BC--that is fair comment in my opinion

What stinks more................

.........than a tired and out of touch politician. James must go and the NDP must reinvent itself. Those 50's and 60's socialists are getting very long in the tooth as their racist policies (middle aged white men not allowed to run)revealed.

“Depart I say, you have been sat to long here for any good you have been doing. Depart, I say, and let us have done with you. In the name of god, go!.”

Oliver Cromwell, addressing the rump parliament. April 1653. Carole take heed, a palace revolt is brewing and you might lose your head.

Carole not as nice (or smart) as she looks

If Carole was the saintly nice person that some claim, why did she approve of the most negative, personal-attack campaign ever waged by a major BC party?

Perhaps the turnout was so low because the election was all about Gordon Campbell. The vicious NDP ads were all about him. The smarmy Liberals ads were all about him.

I think it's bang-on that she lacks a clear vision. She's just a former bureaucrat, school trustee who can't think big. Want proof? Just look at her 2009 platform.

CEO politics

"Yes, Carole is a very nice honest person, but that doesn't get you votes. IMHO, the very nice part helped contribute to the party's loss. For example,when comments were made about her not having experience in business, she didn't try to defend herself."

See, this is the thing that drives me crazy; since when does business experience qualify anyone to run a province? Sure, the tools of business might be useful upon occasion, but what does the ability to create shareholder value have to do with creating vibrant opportunities for citizens? Citizens are not shareholders, no matter that the CEOs would like to characterize them that way - not everyone can afford to buy shares, and the biggest shareholders don't (shouldn't) get veto power.

While I cannot help but agree that one needs more than being a nice person to be electable, if it is true that nice doesn't get you votes, we're f*****. I want nice, I want principled, I want decent humans to make up my government. Good government, just like things you might buy in the marketplace, does not neccessarily equate with the cheapest government...but without a doubt, those governments that could figure how to be nice to citizens might accomplish a small miracle.

Nice is good. Smiling, and smiley emoticons are good.

It wasn't a carbon tax it was a Soprano Tax

It is a money laundry – wringing out shekels for Campbell’s friends and puppet masters; it didn't do a thing for the environment and the greens and pseudo environmentalists who supported it - like the compromised climate 'scientist' Andrew Weaver who called my home in Victoria to urge me to vote Campbell - are so utterly phony they don't deserve even a moment's notice.

Election campaigns are about yelling at the top of your voice - to do that effectively you need a neutral unbiased media.

In this province the media and characters like Andrew Weaver are about on a par.

I forgot

to post a smiley :)

GWest

Once again you demonstrate why the NDP lost: It's not about what scientists or environmentalists think. The public demands action on climate change. The NDP failed to deliver it. And they failed to deliver a rational critique of the carbon tax. Just sound bites about gas taxes.

Here's my take (again): The revenue neutral carbon tax provided a wedge issue for the Liberals and the NDP was sucked into thinking it was a wedge issue for them.

If Carol wants to be premier she needs to get in front of the public on an issue, not get behind the liberals as an oppositionist trying to shout louder. There are plenty of those in our ranks and they aren't premier material.

It`s about personal interest

This election finally proved to me that people will look the other way if they think it`s in their personal interest to do so. Corruption, greed, chronism ... they don`t care. The NDP needs to convince voters they are in their best interests. Until they do that, Campbell can keep disrespecting everyone, give his friends the money of the provincial truck, and continue to sell BC off to his big business buddies.

Carol James has the next year and a bit to prove that she can move the electorate or she will be toast. Nice or not, you have to be effective. Even though a convicted criminal, Campbell has proven that he can win elections. People just don`t care about character anymore.

Dear NDP Faithful...Chris etc.

Does anyone really want to see the business climate destroyed..again...by the NDP? Or see the Libs sell off more resources to foreign corps? Or see both pillage the planet?
The Green party represents what NDP faithful SAY they believe in. The rhetoric of the losers above is self serving. Union labour wants control of publicly owned profit centres, or any business for that matter, to maximize wages. Pulp mills, mines, schools and anything that pays big or small bucks. For their profit!
Then the economy goes to hell after the NDP bloat the public sector and then we vote pragmatists back in.
Only the Green is ready to sacrifice "standard of living" for Quality of Life.
As for character and intelligence, if James had enough of both or either she probably would have won. How anyone can feign enthusiasm for her leadership is beyond me.
Give the Green a try all you sad NDPers and quit putting your vote in the hands of those who obviously don't give a hoot about the environment or the economy. Or is going Green scary? Might lose that Job-For-Life?
I don't buy the anger and spite I read here, it is just unrequited greed. If the people who claim to be NDP actually voted for their conscience instead of their faith, the Greens would win.

Holding the government to account?

I know it's what you say, but I'm really tired of the opposition pledging to hold a government to account in a FPTP system where an illegitimate majority allows absolute power in legislation. There is no accountability in that:

http://politicsrespun.org/2009/05/why-the-bc-ndp-lost-the-election/

STV

Yep
The STV campaign sucked bad.
It is imperfect but it might have lead us to trying a more representative government and people would maybe start to vote from their conscience instead of for their tribe.
Its not an illegitimate majority really, it is a flawed system that legitimizes the winner. And they don't have absolute power either, but it could be better.
On the other hand, would we get leadership at all with STV or just regional committees? I'll take a year off and see if I can figure it out.

Carole James is to

Carole James is to polarizing and the term 'shrill' 'whiner' keeps coming up talking to many people, heck even the local NDP canvasser during the election said Carole must go..

The fact is, the NDP cannot win under Carole James. With all the Liberal shenanigans she could not pull it off, so it is time for her to move on.

I am a life long NDP supporter but I will stay home in 2013 if she is leading the NDP.

G West says:

Men also punished her for being a woman.

----------------

Maybe because she would not allow men to run in vacant ridings with her affirmative action?

I have no problem voting for a women and would like to see Jenny Kwan lead the NDP or even Libby Davis.

Less Left - More Right

Appearing to signal a shift closer to the political centre and away from the NDP's traditional left-wing power base, Ms. James vowed to be different in opposition this time.

“We're still as divided as we were, and yes, [the NDP] is partially responsible for that. We haven't had that balanced approach, reaching across the divides in British Columbia. That's the work I'm passionate about.”

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/british-columbia/works-not-done-for-bc-ndp-leader/article1145730/

Carole James, May 2009

That hard-left thing is over. It just doesn't work anymore. Partisan driven division is so 19th century.

Carole Taylor or Carole

Carole Taylor or Carole James ? We all know who would that contest and why. Until the NDP can find a leader that inspires across the board confidence it will remain in opposition.

I will say that until the party can find that person Carole James is the best person for the job. But staying on until 2013 ? That to me says she will become BC’s foremost leader of the opposition..

I've voted NDP my entire

I've voted NDP my entire life and have worked many hours on various campaigns, including this last one.

I believe Carol James is a competent leader, but a good number of voters don't and simply won't support her, ever, not even in 2013!

Carol should do the honorable thing and resign today. Stephen Dion did the honorable thing when he resigned as leader of the Federal Liberals. He understood that his party could not advance with himself a leader.

Carol, your are a good person and much of the criticism against you is unjust, but for the good of the party and the people of BC, please resign.

Let's cut the crap boys and girls

Carole James is a two time loser and it is foolish in the extreme to even consider her for 2013.

The NDP are now perceived as a racist organization (middle aged white men are not allowed to run) which cost them the election.

Despite the holier than tho perception, the Glen Clark government proved that the NDP were as dirty as any other elected government.

Despite the garbage from the right, business in BC was good in the 90's (at least we had a viable tourist trade); it was the Campbell and Board of Trade propaganda that made the 90's seem bad. I had a tourist oriented business and I know! The tourist trade in Vancouver has all but disappeared.

The carbon tax is a gas tax to fund the RAV/Canada line. It is now apparent (Mr. Tyee get a reporter on this fast) that the direct cost for RAV is near $2.8 billion and the the results from Susan Heyes lawsuit, yea or nay, is going to rival the BC Railgate story.

P-3's in BC are an accounting scam, no more, no less. The debt will burden taxpayers 3 generations hence.

The Green party is strictly a party of protest.

It wasn't CanWest/Global and Bill Boring, that defeated the NDP; it was Carole James.

If the NDP has any hope to win 2013, they must dump James by 2010!

The public demands 'action'

It doesn't demand phony do-nothing taxes.

There IS a difference.

Phony robo-calling enviros to the contrary, the Campbell tax did and will do nothin to reduce GHG emissions in this province.

PERIOD

What's needed in this province is more truth telling and less cant.
Unfortunately, many of my fellow citizens can't handle the truth.

The carbon tax..............

........is a yuppy do nothing tax on the poor. Campbell is sticking the knife in and slowly turning it on poor families.

I live in South Delta; I get my gas in Point Roberts; I save $20 a fill-up! I wonder how many of the scores of Canadian car owners, filling their gas tanks, support Gordo's gas tax?

While I get my gas, I shop in the local stores; again I save $20 to $40 dollars in groceries each time I do!

No Carbon Tax in Washington State folks. See those line-ups at the boarder, that is over taxed Canadians spending their money in the states chums. But, hell, Gordo does as well in Maui!

Time for James to go...

I like Carol, but her campaign was a disaster from the start. It is clear that she cannot read the mood of the electorate and is unable to generate the kind of excitement among non-voters, swing voters and youth that the NDP needs to win.

So while she may indeed be capable of winning an election, that will come only when the political and economic circumstances are stacked in her favour.

That's not a leader, that's a caretaker.

We need a real leader in there -- someone whose message and manner of delivery inspires, someone who generates some excitement not only in the NDP 'base', but in the growing league of non-voters and in our apathetic youth.

Carol has tried her best, but I hope that by now, Carol has at least enough self-awareness to know that she is not that person. It is time for her to step down.

Ego

An honest responsible leader would have done the honorable and resigned as a consequence for incompetence - running the worst NDP campaign since Bob Skelly.

Her ego is much much larger than her intelligence and leadership capabilities. That ego prefers a destructive bloodletting to a positive transition

Working class men will never support James and they stayed home in droves.

BC Voters prefer a more dynamic sort and she is at best wooden. Almost like a barbie doll spewing dogma when the proper button is pushed. Perhaps Diane Watts or Carole Taylor are women who can win. James simply doesn't have an appealing enough personality. Sort of BC's Stephan Dion.

And it will be worse next time, especially with a new Liberal leader.

Rank and file NDP members cannot let this stand.

Let the games begin

I disagree with G-West regarding James' principles and honesty

I disagree with G-West's post.

The Carole James group took a dishonest approach to politics the entire term, and they should not be trusted now. The current caucus is run by Farnworth/Dix/James/BC Fed. Their approach to politics is based on obtaining power by spin messaging regardless of the truth.

They are influenced by, and depend on, backroom union money. Don't trust this bunch.

Contrary to what Carole James said on the CBC this morning, the problem with the "carbon tax" debate was not that it prevented the NDP from getting out their "positive" environmental message. The problem was that the whole "axe the tax" campaign was premised on hood-winking rural voters who simply don't like gas taxes; and also that it split the environmental movement by reinforcing anti-environmental messaging. They then had their operatives out in public denouncing environmentalists for pointing that out.

The James/Farnworth/Dix group served over the course of the term to undermine the voice of local representation from MLAs. They censored MLAs for trying to take independent stands on these types of issues.

Franworth's messaging on crime issues has also been dishonest and served to reinforce mythologies about crime in a way that perpetuates them. The result is a confused public, more bad public policy, and further preventable crime.

Don't be fooled folks, the James/Dix/Farnworth group represents the Glen Clark wing of the NDP. What you saw in the G-West post is that group's new spin.

The only aspect of G-West's post that I agree with is where he/she wrote "You either have principles and tell the truth or you don't."

The past politics of the James/Farworth/Dix group shows that they have fail to demonstrate that they have those principles or that they will tell the truth or be honest in their polictics. They accordingly should not be believed now.

Carole needs to go. NOW!

Funny reading all the posts crediting Carole's loss to the issue the poster is concerned about. DavidN thinks it's all about a useless carbon tax, R/man thinks it's about her being too far to the left, Martin thinks it's about a negative campaign. What rubbish! Advice from the other side on what to do to win is not only suspect, it bs.

She lost, the NDP lost because the voters saw no difference from the liberals. She didn't convince voters, She has not got what it takes. She will lose again. Lots of people are nice and honest but they won't get people stirred up to vote for them. Carole James hanging on is just a way to have a job that pays more than anything she has ever done. Small comfort to the rest that have to live under the heel of Campbell's thugs.

Carole needs to go! Hell, Glen Clark could have done better, Corky could have done better, Joy McPhail could have done better.

yes please, let's cut the crap :'(

So let me get this straight: Carole James is nice, and she's principled - but the voters don't care about character, and they won't support her. And Dippers should pander to that in order to win?

Racist to put forward affirmative action? There are many arguments against affirmative action, but racism is not a legitimate one.

There is much to criticize in the NDP campaign, but Carole was for me, a breath of fresh air in the chill wind of CEO speak. But more importantly, character does matter... If I had to choose between an epitaph that read 'BC's foremost opposition leader' or 'CEO 3 time winner with record low turnout', I know which one I would choose.

An Arrogant & Selfish Decision...

By deciding to stay on, James has only alienated the public and split her own party. The NDP are now guaranteed to be divided if she stays and guaranteed to be divided now when she's pushed out.

She's been soundly rejected as a leader twice, and completely blew a very winnable election. How on earth does she think she'll fare when Gordo resigns after the Olympics and he's replaced by someone popular like Dianne Watts or Carole Taylor?

No BC Railgate or Private Power project will save her on this one. Today, she just ensured the Liberals will hold this province until at least 2018.

How Novel

"I don't lay blame at the feet of anyone. I accept responsibility for the part I played."

And NDPer who accepts blame for something. How novel.

"Unfortunately, many of my fellow citizens can't handle the truth."

Garth, that is your truth. The ideas of others are just as valid and valuable as yours.

Here is a classic example of why the BC NDP rarely wins and cannot hold power. It keeps backing losers. Carole is a nice lady but she has been decisively beaten by a better organised opposition on two separate occasions. Both times the same people ran the campaign.

"The NDP are now perceived as a racist organization (middle aged white men are not allowed to run) which cost them the election."

Certainly the candidate they ran in my riding did not represent young families (such as mine)whereas the Liberal candidate is a parent. Such things mean something to those with children.

"If Carole was the saintly nice person that some claim, why did she approve of the most negative, personal-attack campaign ever waged by a major BC party?"

The smile is pasted on for sure and the campaign she ran was negative in the extreme. She did nothing to disavow the ads run by her union buddies. The Faithful have always wound themselves into a frenzy hating any premier that was not NDP. Bill Bennett immediately comes to mind. But this has never produced for them and they cannot seem to learn that. This is the BC NDP's fatal flaw. For all the demonising, holier than thou-ism and "we know better than you (epitomised by a poster here who claims 80% of voters are 'stupid'}" they don't seem to be able to get on the right track. For a bunch that tells us how smart they are, this is rather perplexing.

And the Liberals are laughing their behinds on, the last thing they wanted was Farnsworth to run against.

So, we can look forward to another four years where the Liberals get a free ride in the Legislature because Carole and the Faithful have already convinced themselves they will win in 2013 so they had better play it safe and not make too much news.

Let the Faithful chime in: 2013 is a done deal, right? The NDP has the election in the bag, just like the last two.

Wilf, dear one

Good morning. Do try to cheer up, would you?

Yes we can't

Just heard Carole on the CBC. She commented that they needed to start their message before the campaign. They only knew the date of the election for four years...sad.

The NDP blew it.

Not only do the NDP have to have a positive vision for BC, they have to have new energized leadership.
Get rid of the gang of so called strategists led by Gerry Scott.

Yes the BC Liberals Lie, yes the major media is biased...this is not new, it is not insurmountable.

Time to for the NDP to not only reinvent itself but to challenge itself into a party that is vibrant and alive.

Forget about trying to reach this so called middle.

There is no middle. There is only folks who buy into the right wing agenda 'cause they have not been inspired by a vision of how things will be different.
They feel hopeless-they do not vote.

Can the NDP do this? Can they be better?
Can they actually inspire people? Who knows?
They certainly won't be able to do it with the "yes we can't gang".

Do they need a new leader? Probably.
Will they form government anytime?
Only if they really want to win and go for it.
Everyday is a campaign day.
They are up against Campbell who is unpopular and should have been defeated Provincially.
Otherwise they will always be "...an effective opposition."

Good Post

southdeltawalker you have made excellent points. But there is something within the party culture that keeps this from happening. In politics, most parties can see what they did wrong in a rational manner. Carole herself admitted mistakes, so did Tieleman. But the Faithful, the Farnsworth/Dix/Sheilds crowd that actually runs the party, cannot do this. They can't seem to get off the idea that somehow they are so superior we had better take their medicine as directed.

This turns enough voters off to keep the NDP out of power.

The rule of life I have learned is "never assume people are dumb. Some might be but most are not." If you are not winning, a change needs to be made.

Dermot: Thanks for the entertainment!

Dermot
Anyone who said anything good about the carbon tax was soundly denounced on this discussion board as a sell out and Liberal sycophant.

Because they are Liberal sycophants. The academics who supposedly authored the cheesy op-ed pieces for the commercial mass media were in most cases Liberal appointees to one of the climate action boards. Yes, there's lot's of hard action there alright, filling out all those per diem and expense claims! Whether or not these intellectuals-for-hire actually penned their op-ed pieces, which pretended to be about climate policy but were in fact partisan electoral screeds, or whether they simply signed material prepared for them by the Public Affairs Bureau remains to be seen.

One thing you can be sure of is this. If we ever find out who really authored these screeds the information almost certainly won't be coming from some whistle-blowing graduate student whose personal future is in the hands of the Liberal professor. It will more likely come from an ex-PAB staffer who thinks the whole thing stinks and has already moved on.

If the party manages to open itself up to real policy ideas on climate change there might be a chance of reclaiming the lost ground. Smugly offering policy solutions three years into the mandate just won't cut it anymore. Neither will offering up solutions that depend on shutting down the capitalist economy, like some deep ecologists propose.

Who is proposing to shut down the capitalist economy? I thought that we had learned that both free market and centrally planned economies pollute unless political decisions are made and enforced to do otherwise. Dermot, since you're so serious, so sincere, and so expert about climate issues, can you help me out by naming some authors I should pay attention to on this issue and on environmental economics generally?

... The public already gets it and that's how Campbell won. He provided the first and only meaningful climate policy in Canada and did it without alienating his own voters. We NDP'ers attacked that policy and alienated our own voters.

He created the perfect wedge and we handed it to him to use on us.

As you know Dermot, your phrase "first and only meaningful climate policy in Canada" could have been lifted directly from one of the op-ed screeds by the Liberal academics.

As far as wedge issues go, there were two of them that Liberal controlled ENGOs played hard over the last four years. They tried to persuade the NDP to oppose a popular Liberal policy, expanding the highway and freeway system, and to support an unpopular one, the gas tax. The humble ENGO leaders, the dedicated career people on their payrolls, and their many earnest disciples are hugely annoyed that Carole James declined to bite either hook, and they blame her "lack of leadership" for not stepping into the traps they set for her.

WilFRED

I've told you before I don't accept that construction. All ideas and all opinions are not equal - many of them are simply waste of space.

Lots more need to be dumped on the trash heap of history. Knowledge of them alone being preserved to show how badly off the track human beings can wander.

What's disingenuous is someone who posts the kind of outright lies and misinformation you seem to have made it your life's work to do.

There is nothing racist about a policy which recognizes that certain elements of the polity are not adequately represented in our governing structures. But then you do have problems with the concept of fairness and equity don’t you? That’s why, in fact, you feel very comfortable in Gordon Cambell’s camp of compromised capitalists.

The age of dinosaurs, when women were relegated to the kitchen, pregnant and barefoot, while MEN made all the decisions, is over.

Some people didn't get the memo.

What was your old identity here at Tyee anyway?

Couldn't have been Ron Erwin could it?

Cause I haven't read such utter nonsense since he and IAMC stopped posting here.

Wilfred Laurier

"But the Faithful, the Farnsworth/Dix/Sheilds crowd that actually runs the party, cannot do this. "

Wilf, again, where do you get this from? How do you know this to be true? Do you know them personally? Are you in this circle of "insiders"? Have you sat in on some NDP post-election debriefing?

Have they made some statements along this line to the media?

I ask because I genuinely want to know. I ask because I don't believe for a minute you give a damn about the party or it's members. You seem only interested in rubbing the Liberals win in the faces of a few NDP supporters.

I think the only way you would vote NDP is they became the BC Liberals.

Amor: You're right. Don't be fooled.

Amor de Cosmos
The problem was that the whole "axe the tax" campaign was premised on hood-winking rural voters who simply don't like gas taxes; ... They then had their operatives out in public denouncing environmentalists for pointing that out.

I notice you frame this as an urban/rural divide issue. That of course was the real purpose of the BC carbon tax, to provide an electoral vehicle by which urban voters could express their contempt and derision for suburban and rural people. In that regard, it's similar to the long gun registry, another bit of Liberal political genius, supported as a mark of distiction and personal political branding statement by the very same urban cogniscenti.

Like you say towards the end, "don't be fooled". I don't intend to be fooled, Amor. What about yourself?

The grace to know when to leave....

I heard Carole James on CBC radio this morning.

She says her emphasis is "now" going to be on the economy and away from what she describes as the "negativity" of the campaign.

And therein lies her main problem.

She clearly does not see that the economy is directly linked to the present corruption ravaging this province. A corruption now being exposed as worldwide in scope.

The rampant privatization of this province, the selling out of this province by the present government is.... and will be forever linked to those corrupt forces. It is why child poverty is also rampant and escalating in BC as well.

The exposing of this corruption, and it's link to the BC Rail corruption trial, (as a window into the real deplorable shape of things in BC... and of things yet to come) is NOT negativity....quite the reverse.

In fact, therein lies the only hope for this province.

That she still cannot see or articulate that in a clear and powerful message to the public is evidence that she must go.

Please, Carole, have the grace to go.

Sorry Vivian............

........banning white males in certain ridings is racism. Affirmative action is now widely discredited as a racist policy. I didn't see the NDP excluding middle aged black women from certain ridings. Rosemary Brown would spin inn her grave if she knew what the NDP were up to.

This is the type of fairy world we live in BC, where armchair environmentalists, growing fat on government and corporate handouts, pretend they are actually doing something.

that 48% of the electorate that didn't bother to vote is sending a very big message and it seems it falling on deaf ears.

Gordo won with gaining only 23% of the electorate vote; the NDP got about 20% (80% of the electorate did note vote for the NDP!) - sounds to me a great many people feel our electoral system is illegitimate, on par with the old Soviet style show-case elections.

Political parties sole aim is to win elections and the NDP supporters just do not seem to get that!

Good morning, Grumpy

I do not believe it is the sole purpose of political parties to win elections; but, in any case, winning at all costs is not my style.

It's only fun to win, speaking personally, if one knows that it was a fair and honest win.

But on another note, I have certainly criticized the NDP in many other posts, and I will not repeat that here. My point in this thread, is that it is unfair to blame Carole James for the woes of the NDP - which go back a few years before her, in my estimation. I thought Carole did a good job in spite of many obstacles, and while I can't claim to be a true admirer before this campaign, I found much to like and respect in her approach.

The first step in finding a solution is to identify the problem correctly...

VivianLea: "character does matter"

Thanks for stating this, Vivian.

How bad is the political climate when someone simply stating that character does matter is taking issue with many people?

A new leader would unite the NDP??

Does anyone here seriously believe large parts of the NDP would vote for Gregor Robertson? I wouldn't. His fawning over Campbell and ignoring James tells me all I need to know about his politics. The party would split in half under his leadership.

If not him, who else is there?

Carole took the job because no one else wanted it and that hasn't changed.

On the bright side the NDP will never be like the Right in this province who never criticize their leaders. The day will never come when Luke, Wilf, realisticman etc ever say anything negative about their leader regardless of who it happens to be.

Axe the flacks

Sorry Carole, but you need to open your eyes; the axe the tax campaign did change the election outcome.

It alienated not just enviros, but also progressives who hate anti-tax rhetoric and actually support taxes and the public programs they enable. And of course it failed to garner right wing voters, who hate the NDs no matter what. You lost 80,000+ votes, compared to last time.

If the carbon tax is "unfair and ineffective", then make it fair and effective: change it to make the income redistribution more progressive, and increase the level of the tax to make it more environmentally effective.

When people see you defending the position of throwing out the baby with the bathwater, you lose your credibility.

Just get rid of the "axe the tax" position.

Dump it.

It doesn't work.

It alienates your base. It doesn't bring in any voters.

Don't axe the tax; fix the tax.

But first, axe the flacks who created that bonehead campaign.

Hey Rod

Yeah, that is a fairly sad tale, to paraphrase Dorothy Parker.

My name is "VivianLea", by the way - and that is what my friends call me :)

FYI

Doer's record

1988 23.62% came in 3rd
1990 28.80% came in 2nd
1995 32.81% came in 2nd
1999 44.51% came in 1st
2003 49.47% came in 1st
2007 48.00% came in 1st

Doer lost 3 times before becoming premier although I'm sure in 1990, after losing twice, there were lots of people saying Manitobans obviously didn't like him much.

The Manitoba and Saskatchewan NDP's don't "reinvent" themselves after every defeat.

And neither do their opponents or the BC NDP's opponents. At most, they pick a new name for themselves such as renaming the Sask PC party as the "Saskatchewan" Party or changing the name from Social Credit to Liberal in BC. But their policies stay the same. There's no "re-invention".

Dave Thompson and DavidN

Less people voted Green this election than in 2005 in spite of Carole's "Axe the Tax" promise.

Not only did the absolute number of Green voters fall but so did their share of the popular vote.

something has to give

So much talk about what a leader needs to be.

Character and charisma seem to be what the 48% who did not vote requires.

So do James possess those qualifications?
like NO way!

Ronald Reagan was an actor and senile, but he did win, ---------- see the difference?

The question is if the NDP insists on rewarding good backroom workers, or:
if for a change they want to win an election!

About the only personality I can recall that might qualify is Moe Shihota! a shit-disturber for sure, but he can at least ignite some excitement.

Bad publicity beats no publicity anytime!

It's A complement to both sides

Any party coming up against Can west, the media mogul would have a tuff call of it and that's fact! As there is no doubt its Campbell mania down at media headquarters as media giant contributes to campaign and editors at both papers are let go. While reporters salvage Mr. Campbell's reputation as they come to his rescue after drunk driving conviction. Its no secret he is there meal ticket. Can west did such a great job of taking the NDP to places no media has traveled as it invades the premier's home and the Soap is on.
And eight years of a dictatorship under Liberals Rule and a dictatorship has left many feeling who can you trust? And I'm so happy Carol James has not left the building and still believe its just a question of time and rail gate and we will have a new premier. Will the people be upset? No they will be happy that finally the system is working and we have an government held accountable and they will again have faith. Remember Mr. Campbell promised? Accountability!

Great Post Dave Thompson

I agree with Dave Thompson.

However, the "hacks" that need to be axed are the James/Farnworth/Dix group and their secret backroom union money.

They can't be trusted.

And the environment

Nobody cared about the environment as it was the flu and the economy and of course trust which where the issues most on voters minds as global media poll showed.
As voters spoke of their lack of trust for their premier and the economy as Central on their minds. Another interesting study with a large sample also found people were less likely to consider the environment when it came to convenience. Another compliment to media for getting the message out there and government as Campbell pushes for his tax on energy. British Colombians are not considered energy conscience as other provinces and obviously we need something more than a media blitz to get that message out there and a carbon tax.

Garth....

You are supposed to be ignoring me, ok? So just do it!

Unlike you, I can accept that other people have different ideas than mine. They might seem invalid to me but if I listen I might learn something from them.

Now, Garth, I want you to stop replying to everything I write and post some ideas of your own that relate to the article, ie what the NDP can change to win the next election. It is pretty obvious the status quo isn't working.

There are no leaders just consultants and advisors!

Non-Leaders and their political operative stooges!

Yeah another 4 more years of dutiful opposition!

Meanwhile despair the loss of wild salmon?

And all the bleating of low voter turnout please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If all the bleaters had voted for STV then fine but neither advesaries bothered to take a position either way (telling is it not?).

Because it suits them and their media massagers and political strategists!

Real Leaders do not need a spotlight or large over compensated salary.

Real Leaders also respect voters as citizens every day, rathger than as consumers (spend spend spend to save our economy!), or as sheep to be herd to your side!

A story about Andrew Weaver

Relayed to me by another volunteer on the campaign:

They went to Andrew's house canvassing - he has a lovely sticker on the back of his car that says "conserve water" or something like that...

and he had his sprinklers on in the rain.

If the anecdote is true, well it wouldn't surprise me.

Freebear

I agree with you on some things but the STV sucks.

I'm sorry but having spent most of my life in northern BC, I took one look at those ridings and voted against it. There was no way that anyone north of Hope would get decent representation with that system.

Dave Thompson: No longer red progressives?

Dave Thompson
It alienated not just enviros, but also progressives who hate anti-tax rhetoric and actually support taxes and the public programs they enable. ...

In an earlier version you used the term "red progressives", but today you dropped the "red" adjective. Is there any reason for that?

If the carbon tax is to be revenue neutral, it provides no net increment to public funds for any public spending purpose, only for redistribution by way of tax cuts. As I am sure you know, the real attraction of the revenue neutral carbon tax is that it provides an opportunity to cut income taxes, by up to half according to David Suzuki and Mark Jaccard.

http://www.sfu.ca/sfunews/Stories/sfunews02290801.shtml

If the carbon tax is "unfair and ineffective", then make it fair and effective: change it to make the income redistribution more progressive, and increase the level of the tax to make it more environmentally effective.

Dave, can you give us one or two sources, one or two authors whose ideas on a progressive carbon tax you find appealing? In your own opinion, is the present BC carbon tax policy fair? Is it effective? Just asking.

Great anecdote, Moonbug

It wouldn't suprise me either, Moonbug. The only thing that does surprise me is that they went canvassing in the Uplands, which is where I assume Weaver lives.

We need more material like this, personal observations about the actual lifestyles of all the star validators and climate action panel heroes who wrote the cheesy op-ed pieces. How many of them own second and third homes, drive luxury cars, vacation all over the world, etc.

Uplands?

NDP canvassing in the Uplands? You are wasting your resources there. Canvassing is best used to get people who WILL vote for you off their fannies and to the polling stations. No party has unlimited resources and they need to be used to best effect.

Oops, maybe too much inside info, hehe.

The Carbon Tax doesn't reduce emissions

and it won't. So what is the point of "fixing" it Dave? So we can give more tax cuts to the rich?

The only problem with the NDP carbon tax policy is that we failed to get our message across.

It is also too bad so many people are desperate for a green symbol that they were willing to ignore the chance for REAL action on the environment:

-Species at risk legislation including legislated protections for habitat

-strengthening the moratorium on offshore oil/gas and oil tankers

-Green Bond to help families and governmental institutions retrofit

-Ban on dirty and destructive coalbed methane extraction, especially in our watersheds

-increased supports for parks/conservation officers

-renewal of the forest base through accelerated replanting programs

-increased protections for our rivers and streams

-closed containment fish farms and halting the northward spread of fish farms

and the list goes on...

Moonbug...

So you get great representation in Victoria now?

I know STV had flaws but the biggest positive was that it catered to broader interest than just to one party's special interests!

I have been WilFRED

Guess you didn't notice.

I'll post exactly what I think you deserve, in my opinion, whenever the spirit moves me. There was an opportunity once, some time ago, when you could have taken a different tack – complaining about what you’ve brought on yourself now is lame.

This is a public forum and fumigating offensive and worthless ideas from the public sphere is a civic duty.

The status quo is Gordon Campbell's heel grinding the poor, the disabled and the old; the working poor and, though most of them haven't got the wit to realize it, the middle class as well.

Bad ideas are always worthy of being debunked and I take immense pleasure in debunking yours.

Try showing a little respect for other people's strongly held beliefs and opinions and you'll notice a sea change in attitude my friend.

I'm a peaceable guy - but I'm no pacifist.

If you attack me personally, expect to get hit back, hard.

After all, I am a lot younger than you, and, as you've already 'decided', I'm angry.

the anecdote

I'm not sure where Weaver lives, but the volunteer I spoke to was from the Van der Veen campaign.

I understand they canvassed like mad on that campaign... and if you look at the results it really showed.

-2005-
BC Liberal Ida Chong 12,911
NDP Charley Beresford 11,430
difference- 1481

-2009- (so far)

BC Liberal Ida Chong 11,266
NDP Jessica Van der Veen 10,736
difference- 530

You might also want to note that the Green vote between both elections is about the same.

Freebear

At least northern MLAs have the time to visit most of their communities now. With STV they would have to neglect villages to continue to get the support of larger cities, and they would also spend much more time travelling.

The NDP MLAs up north do a spectacular job representing people. That might be why Robin Austin, MLA for Skeena vastly increased his support, and Gary Coons continued to be very popular. It probably also helped Doug Donaldson get elected, one of the only seats the NDP stole from the Libs.

Gary Coons spends more time on float planes in six months than most people will in their whole lives. His riding was actually made smaller even though the population is low, in recognition of the fact that it is VERY HARD to represent communities that are only accessible by boat and plane.

STV would have made it political suicide for politicians to spend as much time as they do now visiting our province's smallest communities.

The fear of change is .............

....... rampant. The fear of doing the right thing, is telling.

The sole purpose of the NDP is to be elected and if the public do not have e faith in the NDP or its leader, it must change.

Gordon Campbell has one of the most corrupt and evil administrations in Canada in recent history. He is raping the province for his corporate buddies; he is destroying the environment; he burdening future taxpayer's with massive loads of debt, yet James could not beat him.

80% of BC's eligible voters did not vote for James. This point alone should have her take an honorable bow out and retire from politics. But no, she will not.

As a once NDP supporter, who could nor support Clark, Ujal, and James, I voted Green. This time, with Viki Huntington, I voted for her.

What I see from a lot of NDP supporters is denial and denial shows a lack of reality of the situation. To win voters back to the fold to win, you have to attract people like myself, but the NDP do not even try!

Lost in their miasma of rhetoric is that to gain power, you must win an election and to win an election, you must appeal to the populace. That Gordo and James obviously didn't spells evil times ahead.

Denial?

"What I see from a lot of NDP supporters is denial and denial shows a lack of reality of the situation."

Grumpy, you voted Green.

Did you think the Greens could win? Do the Greens not exist so as to win office?

Why couldn't the Greens win when there are so many environmental problems in BC, Canada and the world and with a leader like Campbell to run against?

"Lost in their miasma of rhetoric is that to gain power, you must win an election and to win an election, you must appeal to the populace"

The NDP won 36 elections on May 12th, how many did the Greens win?

Seems a little hypocritical and a lot ridiculous for those that voted Green and Liberal to be giving advice to the NDP as to how to fix the world.

If you want it fixed then try getting your own parties to do it.

What about Dileep Athaide?

Grumpy
As a once NDP supporter, who could nor support Clark, Ujal, and James, I voted Green. This time, with Viki Huntington, I voted for her.

Dileep Athaide is an earth scientist, someone who would be highly qualified to speak on public policy issues related to the natural environment. If you choice to vote for Huntington was motivated by a desire to take a seat away from the BC Liberals, fine. That's a personal choice. But tell me this. Did it work?

voter turnout

Voter turnout was low because it didn't matter who won--both parties are laying claim to the 'centre'. Ms Campbell (aka James) is incapable of leading a squad of ducks to water. Mr Campbell (aka Gordo) is a convicted drunk driver. Neither has any leadership qualities, but in the end, 'better the devil you know'.

Moonbug

Before you go orgasmic remember Coons ran against a candidate who left the mayor's office "under a cloud" and Austin ran against a 23 year old kid who still calls himself "Donny". Donaldson ran in a riding with a large First Nations population. All of them ran in areas completely neglected by Campbell, who has actually made it worse, and the economic conditions are dismal. No surprise. Victory was less about what the three did an more about the liberals regional economic failure.

G-West - you mean after she

G-West - you mean after she punished men? Really talk about projecting, we all who know punishes whom in the BC NDP.

Hint, when they can publicly proclaim their desire to BAN men, especially white and able men to run for them, well I think it is totally clear men are the ones being punished.

It was an foolish policy from an out-of-touch party bent on being correct to the point of harming themselves.

Given the margin in votes, it also likely cost them the election, needlessly I might add

No one weants to lose their job, especially one like leader of the opposition for a life not being in the spotlight, not having people keenly interested in your thoughts and opinions.

She is going to have to be pushed but now that she has what she wanted, a female-majority infrastructure within the NDP that will be difficult.

She is the wrong leader for our times and the biggest sexist jerk currently in Canadian politics, imo.

Many many progressives feel

Many many progressives feel the same way as you do Grumpy.

The James/Farnworth/Dix group represents the Glen Clark wing of the party. Their politics are dishonest. They are also responsible for all this present name-calling. As Dermot pointed out in an earlier post:

"They led with this opposition tactic, ceded Campbell the environmental high ground and spent half the campaign trying to find "environmentalists" to attack climate campaigners and the Liberals.

Anyone who said anything good about the carbon tax was soundly denounced on this discussion board as a sell out and Liberal sycophant. Anyone who supported the NDP was praised as a "real" environmentalist."

Beware the next round of spin from the James/Farnworth/Dix group. It will be all about "honesty and integrity" no doubt.

They've already shown that their politics cannot be trusted. And no, Farnworth or Dix are NOT the type of people to lead the party when Carole inevitably steps down in a couple of years. Again, this group represents the Glen Clark branch of the party.

A new generation has to take over the leadership of the party or it's over. As Tommy Douglas said, "Big business leads to big unions leads to big interests".

I believe the James/Farnworth/Dix group are beholden to those interests.

Amor

Yep, its all a big conspiracy. The cigar smoking leaders of the teachers, nurses and public service are cracking the whip and driving the party into the ground for their own nefarious purposes.

Of course there is an option those evil teachers and nurses didn't think of, those that won't follow their leadership could simply start their own party.

Grumpy

Grumpy, I may not agree with you a lot of the time but I do respect what you say. I am glad you post here.

Thanks, Garth

"I'll post exactly what I think you deserve"

Thanks, Garth. I know I am not worthy of your intellect. When you said you would start ignoring me, I felt that my chance for Enlightenment would surely be missed.

Now I rejoice, for I know that one day, with the wisdom of The Garth, I may, however unlikely, be included in the 20% of the population of BC that is not "stupid."

All Hail The Garth!

Angry?

"After all, I am a lot younger than you, and, as you've already 'decided', I'm angry."

I'd be interested to know how old you think I am, The Garth, and just exactly how old a person has to be to be left out of society and the political process.

And The Garth angry? Well, I would have never have thought that! :-)

MichaelT

What are you talking about?

Punishing men?

There's something quite pathetic about that construction.

I'd be interested to know how equity and fairness equates to 'punishment'.

Are you sure you really understand the 'party's' policy?

I don't think you do.

Fix the tax; axe the flacks

Hey what's with this new meme "REAL environmentalists," which appears to be aimed at denigrating anyone who supports a carbon tax? Are carbon tax supporters not "REAL environmentalists"?

It's frankly a bit comical.

Is this the new spin from the same bonehead flacks who dreamed up "axe the tax"?

Rod, in respect of whether progressives are "red" or not, or what that means, check the context and let me know what you think: "progressives who hate anti-tax rhetoric and actually support taxes and the public programs they enable." Do they sound red, or just progressive? Does it matter?

And did I say I'd want a revenue-neutral carbon tax with all the money going to income tax cuts? Nope. Personally, I'd want some of it spent on environmental initiatives, and also redistribution to very low income people who don't pay taxes. But that's just me.

From what Marc Lee says, the BC Liberal version of the carbon tax is initially progressive and over time would become regressive. Does this mean that all potential carbon tax designs that can ever be conceived of are automatically regressive or unfair?

Uh, no.

From what everyone says, the current level of taxation is not going to have much impact environmentally. When it grows it will have more impact. Probably not enough - the tax should be much higher (as should progressive redistribution). Does that mean that all potential carbon tax designs are automatically ineffective?

Uh, no.

Moonbug, please see above. Also, your wishlist sounds good to me. What about it precludes a carbon tax?

People have been predicting the end

People in this province and this country have been predicting the 'end' of the NDP and the CCF before them for generations. Same thing always happened in Saskatchewan when I lived there.

Spare me the overwrought rhetoric.

Would you rather have a leader who tells the truth and has some real character and honour or one who lies congenitally and does things only for his friends and lobby/buddies?

Given the traditional knuckle-dragging attitude of the media in this province and the shamelessness of the business cargo cultists on Howe Street it is always going to be an uphill battle for progressive democracy here.

By all means, circle the wagons and start shooting into your own ranks while Campbell's paid goons egg you on.

Be my guest - if half the umbrage supposed NDP supporters are dumping on their own kind today had been transferred to a proper BCLiberal target there is a chance that the NDP could have won this election - despite the media. Those 4 and half thousand votes were out there – and YOU didn’t make the effort to bring them in.

Give your heads a shake guys - Carole James is neither the enemy nor your savior - nor should she be.

If you think a 'leader' is going to rise up and take you to the promised land then you should be praying in church and not playing politics.

If you want Laurier gone Stop cooking with cheese!

My ignore policy works and I tend to get less steamed reading the Tyee!

Dave Thompson

Have you read Paul Krugman on carbon taxes - and he's talking about real carbon taxes, not pretend ones that just launder money and don't do a single thing about reducing GHG?

I suggest you do - and I suggest you go back and look at the NDP policy.

It wasn't just a few bought and paid for enviros like Andy Weaver who drank the Campbell Kool ade apparently.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/18/opinion/18krugman.html?_r=1

pls note paras 10 and 11.

Campbell Drags Down the Libs...

Martin:

Bang-on! Campbell's approval ratings dropped during the campaign and he's a lightning rod for negativism. He turns off middle-of-the-road swing voters as well as many Libs. (Dianne are ya listenin'?)

Compare Campbell to Manitoba Premier Gary Doer and his astounding 66% approval rating.

And there's another example of Campbell's negative effect upon people. Lib voters stayed home in droves and as a much larger proportion of the electorate than NDP voters.

carbon tax nits

Would you idiots stop with the nonsense.

When a nobel prize winning economist tells you crap n'trade is superior to the carbon tax can you at least allow that the Berman's, Da Gucci's, Weavers, and Jaccard who have utterly no credibility on the subject might be wrong. That Carol James just might have had it right. That perhaps the carbon tax wasn't worth 100 billion in IPP losses or the destruction of the BC's salmon.

The few of who can read try Mike Symth's column today or refer again to Krugman

http://www2.canada.com/theprovince/columnists/story.html?id=f180bb8d-ed6a-4e9e-bf13-82add7afd086

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/18/opinion/18krugman.html?_r=3

Fighting the last war

The carbon tax thing is done now. You people are fighting the last war. Instead you need to be preparing for the next one by finding out what you did wrong in the last one.

The NDP lost the last three elections. It it wants to win the next, some serious soul searching is in order or you'll lose again.

Fix the tax; axe the flacks

G West, I read Krugman's article when it came out.

Anyone who thinks Krugman is saying that cap-and-trade is in every case better than carbon tax had better go back and read it again, the whole thing - and with their glasses on.

Krugman's point is about not letting the perfect stand in the way of the good (hence the title of his article). He's saying that it's dumb to fight against the Waxman-Markey cap-and-trade bill, now before the House, on the grounds that a carbon tax is "perfect."

I agree. Get carbon pricing in place, because it's really hard to do so. Don't let some Quixotic quest for a perfect policy stand in the way of a good policy.

Here's how he concludes about the cap-and-trade bill: "imperfect, it’s disappointing in some respects, but it’s action we can take now. And the planet won’t wait."

Applied to BC's situation, that means: fix the tax.

And I would add, axe the flacks.

Krugman's Article

Dave, I came to the same conclusion regarding Krugman's article. However, The Garth is Cherry Picking.

Fix the tax; axe the flacks

seth, regarding Krugman's article, see my note to G West.

Mike Smyth, as his article makes clear, has no idea what he's talking about.

Anyone who actually understands carbon pricing knows that a cap-and-trade system won't cover all sectors of the economy. In order to do so you need a complementary carbon tax.

They are not mutually exclusive. They can be used together, and ultimately probably will be in BC.

Smyth doesn't have a clue if he doesn't get that.

Dave..

Except that Campbell himself suggested exactly what Smyth is saying...

Not that either one is worth much. What does it matter if you price emissions if you keep extracting the fossil fuels, having it burn slower doesn't change the net emissions one iota.

The best way of reducing emissions is to stop using dirty fuels. If you don't produce them, dig them up, whatever, they don't get used.

Therefore, the NDP policy of keeping coalbed methane in the coalbed, and offshore oil and gas beneath the ocean floor are vastly more effective at reducing carbon than a useless tax that hasn't slowed consumption AT ALL.

Fix the tax; axe the flacks

Moonbug, I agree with you about "stop using dirty fuels."

But do you really think that BC reducing its fossil fuel extraction is going to somehow reduce consumption?

Wait a sec, does the BC NDP really suggest that keeping coalbed methane in the coalbed, and offshore oil and gas beneath the ocean floor are effective at reducing carbon emissions? Can anyone confirm that this is truly their position?

There is a continental market for gas, and a global market for oil. Reducing a couple of small supplies isn't going to make any significant difference to consumption. Refiners will just get it elsewhere. You have to reduce demand, and supply will follow.

The whole history of supply management is a series of collosal failures. Think about Prohibition. Think about America's "war on drugs."

You have to reduce demand. That's why carbon pricing is important.

no it doesn't Dave

The idea of a 'revenue neutral' carbon tax is like being a little bit pregnant.

IF the revenue were used for something other than providing more cheese (as Marc Lee points out) for Campbell's friends then you might have a case - and I'd be defending the tax, not attacking it.

It is an administratively complex and costly effort to give the appearance of doing something while actually doing nothing and, it leaves out two of the biggest polluters, airlines and cruise ships. It relies on a fallacious economic principle and flies in the face of the reality of inelastic demand.

I happen to know what went on behind the scenes.

I also know that the minister NEVER saw the regulations before she signed them.

This was a smoke and mirrors effort by PR flaks and not a sincere effort to address climate change.

Combined with Campbell's utter prostration before the oil and gas industry in the North East, you shouldn't need any more information to understand who's being 'had' here.

Campbell had alternatives - he could have done something positive.

He didn't. The fact Al Gore is equally compromised is just funny.

Don't talk to me about what might have been - let's deal with what is.

THE CAMPBELL TAX IS NOT A CARBON TAX - IT IS A MONEY LAUNDRY.

In fact, even Krugman has changed his mind

He used to believe in the efficacy of Pigovian Taxes....

Fix the tax; axe the flacks

In case anyone confuses me for someone who is defending the BC Liberal version of a carbon tax, let me be clear:

I'm not.

And I see a lot of other people getting accused of the same thing - incorrectly.

This forum seems to have a lot of this GWB-style "you're with us, or you're with the [Liberals]."

not at all Dave

I just get pissed off when I hear a constant refrain from all angles that you can't attack the Campbell Tax for what it really is.
The whole argument that it's better than nothing is, frankly, garbage.

If Campbell had wanted to reduce GHG emissions there are literally dozens of things he could have done.

He did none of them.

Instead he opted for a choice that anyone with even the tiniest exposure to ethical philosophy would understand for what it is - a facile attempt to manipulate people by treating them as means rather than ends.

The simple and brutal fact of the matter is that, for whatever reason, a lot of fair minded people who consider themselves to be green and ethical got suckered into supporting a premier who's little better than a modern version of Dracula.

All I needed to know was in that pathetic robocall from Andrew Weaver on May 11.

Rod Smelser

Rod,
Campbell didn't win because a few academics or enviromentalists, who know a heck of a lot about climate change, support carbon taxes and cap and trade systems.

He won because we provided no credible alternatives to the carbon tax.

And people want action on climate change, even if folks like you don't believe the tax is effective. Ironically you seem to believe that policy wonks and environmental advocates are solely motivated by self-interest, judging by your fixation on per diems and appointments. Yet the idea that people will be saving money by using less fossil fuel seems to be beyond your ken.

Go figure.

"Wait a sec, does the BC NDP

"Wait a sec, does the BC NDP really suggest that keeping coalbed methane in the coalbed, and offshore oil and gas beneath the ocean floor are effective at reducing carbon emissions?"

No that is my opinion- not necessarily anyone elses.

Having people burn the same amount of fuel over a longer period of time does diddly squat.

Dave, you seem to think there is an infinite amount of fossil fuels out there -so that refusing to extract some of them would make no difference.

Both of those suppositions are incorrect.

Dave Thompson: Why not answer the question?

What do you mean by the term "red progressives"? Is there some impediment to answering this seemingly simple question?

Dermot: You're right on that one!

Dermot
He won because we provided no credible alternatives to the carbon tax.

In a way, that's what James herself has said in her most recent statement.

But it begs the question, how does an opposition party convince the public that they have a good alternative approach to a given issue when expensive, star-quality "validators" have lined up to praise the Government of the day, to smear that opposition party as "dishonest", and to be given wide coverage for doing so in all the commercial media who just happen to be extremely friendly to that Government. Any ideas, besides saying it's all James' fault?

... Ironically you seem to believe that policy wonks and environmental advocates are solely motivated by self-interest, judging by your fixation on per diems and appointments.

You're right on that one, but there's nothing ironic about it. Very clearly that is the situation, especially as regards those intellectuals who wrote the cheesy op-ed pieces that purported to be about climate policy, but were really just partisan electoral screeds. People who claim not to see this are either being funny or they're in denial. MLA Shane Simpson put this pretty clearly in a response on DeSmogBlog.com, one of the Liberal propaganda sites.

off-course ......needs a better compass and a new pilot

Gregor Robertson was always a weak performer in the legislature.....not a good speaker and not much fire.

The same is true of Carole James I think. She did not have sufficient presence as leader.

Corky Evans would have been a great choice against Campbell because he is the real thing. His innate genuineness would have been a great foil against the slick superficiality of Campbell. But Corky bowed out this time round.

I also think Bob Simpson of Cariboo North has many strengths...He would be a great leader of the party. Great speaker, full of both passion and reason...and always strong and fair.....
and when he speaks in the legislature, he easily deflates the arrogance of the other side. ( He is like Joy MacPhail, in that the BC Liberals are just a little afraid of him and what he is about to reveal...always a good thing.) Bob Simpson would be my number one pick.

Jenny Kwan, Rob Fleming, Nicholas Simons, Adrian Dix, and even newcomer Spencer Herbert ( did he get elected this time?) all have potential.

I love the warm intelligence and gentle humour of both Shane Simpson and Charlie Wyse but Charlie didn't make it to the finals this time round.

Lots of possibilities...so why settle?

As to the backroom of the NDP, (those supposedly guiding this meandering ship), they need to be replaced with a much more focused and effective crew.

Fix the tax; axe the flacks

Moonbug, I think neither of those things.

Rod, by red progressives I mean people who are on the left side of the political spectrum (which is pretty narrow in Canada). Isn't that obvious from the context? What did you think I meant? Moreover, why does this one word matter so much? This seems a very trivial point.

Anyway, getting back to what does matter, the NDs screwed up by running a boneheaded "axe the tax" campaign as a central plank in their election platform.

They haven't justified it, it predictably alienated many core constituencies, and it predictably failed to attract right-wing tax-hating voters. As a result, the NDs failed to unseat a not-very-popular government in the midst of a deep recession (which is a pretty serious failure).

Sounds like a pretty big screw-up.

Too bad the ND brass and flacks refuse to take ownership of it.

I can just imagine the backroom discussion on election night: "Quick let's blame it on those environmentalists - no, not the 'REAL environmentalists' - those other ones. They're all a bunch of Liberals, right? And let's pretend 'axe the tax' wasn't really a big deal in our campaign. Don't worry about winning next time; it's more important to blame everyone else, stay negative, and stick to our message..."

Open the tent.

The NDP nearly tore itself apart over forestry and environment issues in the 1990's. A lot of time and energy went into how to keep environmentalists and IWA members in the same party.

This time no-one seemed interested in getting anyone on side because the party (or whoever makes these strategy calls) thought they had a political wedge to spilt the right wing vote, gas prices.

Over the next few years the party has to take the lead on climate change. The stuff they were peddling this time around was pretty lame and not very well developed.

Fix the tax; axe the flacks

Wow, the level of delusion on this forum is really amazing.

If you criticized the "axe the tax" campaign, you are quite simply a Liberal propagandist!

No ifs ands or buts.

Either you toe the party line on this, or you are a complete traitor!

I suppose if the ND platform included something like insisting that the moon is made of cheese, and you criticized that, you'd have to be a Liberal. No doubt about it.

What would happen if the NDs and Liberals agreed on something, like - say - allowing clearcutting. And you disagreed.

Oh yeah, I remember, you'd be an "enemy of BC!"

The tax was not an issue..

For heaven's sake, enough already! The bloody tax never came up in any discussion I had with anyone except here on The Tyee. The only people thinking the NDP position was a big issue were the few purists who still listen to Suzuki. Everyone I spoke to thought the tax was a big cruel liberal joke. They saw through Campbell's scam. Still they didn't think Carole was effective. The NDP lives and dies by the image of the leader.

All this focus on the tax is exactly what the Greens want. They want the NDP tpo think it is the cause. NONSENSE!

Naw Dave

Nothing like that on e-night.

In fact, we all had a helluva good party and clapped ourselves on the back for doing as well as we had done with less money, volunteers whose average age I'm too polite to mention, a hostile press and a dishonest falsifying opponent with a lot more money, not to say a bunch of limelight-hogging phony environmentalists who somehow think appearances are more important than reality.

No blame at all - that's just the way it is with social democrats - you lose a lot more battles than you win, but you keep getting up and starting over again.

And you recognize that some of your fiercest battles will be, sadly, with your friends.

Time to get over yourself and recognize that there was one way to get change in this province this year.

Only one way, because warts and all, Carole James and the NDP are head and shoulders, knees and toes, better than the CEO and corporate welfare.

In the end, even if there were a hundred votes to redo, I'd been on the side of the weak, the old, the young and the poor.

You can do what you like.

My god...

Did you people even pay attention to the election campaign?

The carbon tax was not a big issue. Almost everybody doesn't care about it one way or the other. Is that so hard to grasp?

Those that spend all their time worrying about climate change were probably some of the 125,000 voters that voted Green. Libs and Dippers had other worries, other issues.

For some reason even though the election is over the pro-carbon tax people won't rest until every party in BC supports it.

Its not going to happen so get on with your lives.

Come next election there's a good chance the Libs (if they have a new leader) will decide the NDP was right all along and also oppose it.

"James said she will lead

"James said she will lead her party into the 2013 election"

Great!

Another Liberal win in 2013!

The fraser valley.......

As Michael Smyth stated,"Campbell could run a shaved ape there and still win"

Sorry folks,there was several factors at play.......
#1 The NDP voter pool is getting smaller,unfortunately the Asian Vote is all Campbell Liberal,and they keep coming.....

#2 The interior the Liberals can run a racist,lying,foul mouth obtuse and not very intelligent Bill Bennettt and still win.......
So the Liberals have Richmond/West Van/Fraser Valley/interior and the north....
The NDP have the island and a few pockets of sanity around the province....

The NDP can win a small majority,maybe 44 seats if they run a perfect campaign....

Give the Liberal enough rope to hang themselves in a sea of debt....believe me,there will be a sea of debt...
Secondly,no more question period in the legislature,the NDP have to stop playing Campbell`s game,there is no point in asking questions in question period if the Liberals refuse to answer,maybe when the media asks why the NDP aren`t asking questions in the question period,maybe then the media will ask their own questions,call it shaming the Liberals....

What point is there in asking questions and having Kash Heed state "Can`t answer it is before the court" or George Abbott state "Back in the 90s" or "fast ferries"

The NDP can give their questions to Vaughn Palmer or Smyth or Sean Holman and they can ask the goverment the questions in the hallway.....
In fact,I don`t see any reason to have any of the legislature running,except for budget estimate debates......

People don`t want to vote,voters and the media don`t care about any real issues,people will get the goverment they deserve,why bother sending 37 MLAs in opposition to Victoria,1 or 2 will suffice,,there will be no fall session this year anyways,no new bills,no legislation,........

Cheers

Are You for REAL...???

Dermont:

Nobody really cares about the carbon tax except for policy wonks. And that idiotic idea caused the NDP to reap some popular support last summer when gas prices reached 1.50/litre.

People don't understand it and view it as another cost to their lives. Social engineering at its worst.

If it never came into effect, I'd wager that the NDP would have fared even worse, seat-wise, during the election, notwithstanding Campbell's negative effect upon the Libs.

Skywalker:

Frank:

No kidding. Methinks I'm gonna bang my head against the wall. :D

I knew it!

"No kidding. Methinks I'm gonna bang my head against the wall. "

That's why!

On a more positive note...

Lynn wrote "Corky Evans would have been a great choice against Campbell because he is the real thing. His innate genuineness would have been a great foil against the slick superficiality of Campbell...I also think Bob Simpson of Cariboo North has many strengths...He would be a great leader of the party. Great speaker, full of both passion and reason...Bob Simpson would be my number one pick...Jenny Kwan, Rob Fleming, Nicholas Simons, Adrian Dix, and even newcomer Spencer Herbert ( did he get elected this time?) all have potential."

I agree that there is a group of elected MLAs with a lot of potential. We need to hear more from them. You can search and find their legislature speeches online.

Corky is/was great. I would have loved to have seen him as leader. All Corky fans should check out this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcCXewP5kuk

Bob Simpson is also an intelligent and effective MLA. Im not sure whether he would be able to overcome an adversary such as Carole Taylor, but he is pretty sharp. My impression is that Doug Routley is another brilliant chap who may not be leadership material but definatly deserves to have his voice heard.

Simons and Fleming are two fantastic younger MLAs, with Fleming a potential leader. Fleming the urbanite and Simons the small-town dude. Spencer Herbert from the West End, along with the new MLA from Nelson-Creston, Michelle Mungall, will hopefully be others to add to that most important group.

IMO, other post-Clarkies would include Scott Fraser, Claire Trevena, Robin Austin, Maurine Karagianis, and even Shane Simpson (although I think he blew it on the carbon tax).

With any luck, these MLAs will feel encourged to speak freely and confidently both publicly and within the party. We need a more positive and open debate that will encourage and inspire others to come forward to join that list; or at the very least to vote...

Dave Thompson: What are "red progressives"?

Dave Thompson
Rod, by red progressives I mean people who are on the left side of the political spectrum (which is pretty narrow in Canada). Isn't that obvious from the context? What did you think I meant? Moreover, why does this one word matter so much? This seems a very trivial point.

I'm not satisfied with this explanation, because it doesn't explain anything. What is a "red progressive"?

Some Further Reflection...

I, among many others, had the same knee-jerk reaction to James' announcement that she will run in 2013.

It's called poker-face politics.

The NDP just had a better than expected % of the popular vote and a concurrent better than expected seat count.

The election is another 4 years away. No need to have internal leadership battles right now. Just keep the status quo during the interim 2 - 3 year period and then pull the plug.

That's when party momentum will really matter with new leadership.

Keep everyone off-balance for now. Sure there will be a few weeks of bitching about James' decision to run in 2013 but that will eventually subside. James has aleady thought the strategic repercussions of her announcement through.

If James had made an announcement that she would only remain for another 2 years, the behind the scenes jostling for leadership positions would begin right now. Not beneficial for the NDP right now strategically.

Rinse, wash, and repeat... same for Gordo's current position.

Like Bennett during Expo 86, pull the plug unexpectedly, walk away, and then let the political battle for leadership replacement begin.

As an aside, Barrett's '83 run was an anomaly. The NDP's highest popular vote ever as well as best campaign ever was in '79 and provided the ultimate boost for Barrett's run next time 'round.

"James said she will lead

"James said she will lead her party into the 2013 election"

Great!

Another Liberal win in 2013!

Fix the tax; axe the flacks

Too funny: up to a couple of days ago, the "axe the tax" campaign had a prominent place on the main page of the BC NDP website.

I see now that it has been removed (and presumably thrown down the memory hole?).

The new spin is that it was Never a Big Deal.

Except that it actually Was a Big Deal. And the party Made it a Big Deal. The environmentalists (the fake ones, of course, not the REAL ones that toe the line) didn't do that.

And now the brass realize that it was stupid and lost them votes.

Finally.

Unfortunately, they realized it a bit too late for the election, and 80,000 ND voters stayed home while the Liberals won by 50,000 votes.

By this time next year, people on this forum will claim "axe the tax" never happened. Just like a few months ago, someone claimed that "environmentalists are the enemies of BC" never happened.

Goodbye folks. Fun chatting today. Thanks for that.

carefull

oh please do not mention Claire Trevena!
talk about being shrill!

Watching her speak you get distracted by her constant moving the hair back in place, nervous gesture I am sure, but annoying!

She is lucky to be in NDP country, she is elected because there is no choice.

The Age of Twitter ...

... and the Internet.

Quite a few people seem to think that the NDP's position on the Carbon Tax has been overestimated and many say that it was not a campaign issue.

Anyone looking on-line for the NDP platform in the election would have seen the cancellation of the Carbon Tax at the top, in first place.

http://www.bcndp.ca/why-ndp/BCNDP-platform-2009

Make up your own mind. Is the platform on the party's web site important, or are party web sites of little importance? Should the issues and promises be listed in order of importance?

Bill Tieleman picked up the Axe the Tax campaign and ran a Facebook page that garnered over 9,000 'members'. Was that also unimportant?

Carbon tax

The big secret as to why the NDP dropped it was because they realized nobody gave a rat's ass.

For Campbell, all it did was protect his environmental policies from becoming an issue because of people like Jaccard, Suzuki and Berman and their attack on the NDP.

Dave Thompson, yes the NDP lost votes. But so did the other two parties. Your argument only holds water if the NDP were the only party to lose votes. So it takes remarkable tunnel vision to say the NDP lost votes over the carbon tax while ignoring that the two parties that supported it also lost votes. If a real case can be made for the NDP losing the election over the carbon tax it wouldn't require distorting facts.

Therapy from a lively country newspaper

Go to http://www.islandtides.com/ and scroll down to Page 3 for:

The road ahead - New Ideas for BC Government
by Patrick Brown.

Like many others, Patrick Brown was bruised by the implications of May 12, 2009. So he takes us back to reconsider the two essential political lists:

First Governing Principles, my favourite being

#3:The Premier is not the Chief Executive Officer of the Province, nor is he the decisionmaker. Rather, he carries the responsibility of managing the process of government. The process is one which having taken all factors and all interests into account, arrives at decisions by concensus and reconcilliation.

There are 16 principles in all.

Issues That Must Be Addressed ... there are 32 of these issues, my favourite being #27 - BC Rail: Halt transfer of railway lands to CN ...

All this and more, from Island Tides, a lively country newspaper. which is available online, or as a freebie on the ferries. Recommended.

God -- folks get silly

God -- folks get silly sometimes. I just called Van Rassel to my home--and said "Carole James is money $$$$$$$$$"--

Ms. James kicked the shit out of Campbell in two debates. I watched tape of both as many time as I watched "Ali"--killed him.

She has the best-of- the positives of any politician I have ever polled (1)

Campbell plays over a 98% base--love or hate. Gordon Campbell has been successful and God Bless him for that.

I want the women to run the show for awhile---and that's just me. Women--run communities better than men--they are fantastic politicians--they will work like beavers.

My priest told to me to pray for this--

I want both my daughters to be elected politicians----this is the greatest calling for any citizen. Elected office is the most important vocation any person can aspire to.

--I bet if you talked to Gordon he would see the value in this--he's 60 good for him---as a pollster I am very happy right now--because BC is working hard to be real polit,ically---

(42%)--I have polled people under 30 they love the NDP--and Carole James is moving forward like Bob Dylan ("Hurricane")

The political dynamic is moving NDP--trust me--. Carole James visuals are very good, that is why most cameras are watching her after the switch. Alot of men and women want BC Conservatives--I am hearing it big time.

You people talking her/cj down--are speaking about different perspectives--I am a numbers guys--and personally BC's greatest best reformer.

To me and my business--let me be frank--Carole James is 2 elections--that trumps Watts in Surry easily--and frankly and I want to be clear when I write this---I believe that women are better leaders--at least in the context of what I think eye know--provincial politics--I want a women to lead the province--my dream is an all women candidacy in 2013.

We are good enough to make this happen without being cheese muffins in the process.

Carole James is the best political investment in BC--I've worked with the best pr boys--CJ Dalziel--Wayne R. Tisdale---Murray Pezim.

Lastly, my mother --born in Halifax--Rita--I love you mom--says--glennie is Carole a little Indian?--I say mom yea she is--Metis---and her husband--full aboriginal--

Give me Carole and her husband--Gordon Campbell and other players and let's get on with making our province the best--

I'm IN.

ROBBINS Sce Research....

Man, I'm gonna bend down on my knees and pray to Allah with you words of wisdom.

But why didn't ya just dispense with all of your almighty insights and words of wisdom and update your November 27, 2007 press release for 2013:

http://www.robbinssceresearch.com/polls/poll_437.html

IIRC, the poster G West has also previously agreed, with your own assessment, that you are:

And that ain't nothin' to sneeze at. :D

Sorry luke

Another lie buddy - Glen bills himself as the most accurate pollster in the world.

You won't find any comment, one way or the other, on that subject by yours truly.

By the way, I find your personal insinuation offensive - not that expect it'll make any difference - but recorded here for the record.

That's right Dave. It never happened.

Dave Thompson
Just like a few months ago, someone claimed that "environmentalists are the enemies of BC" never happened.

That's right Dave, it never happened, except in the imaginations of certain people who have turned it into an urban legend.

Several posters have complained that the NDP was rude to the environmentalists. It's a neat bit of argument. It wasn't Carole James or anyone in the NDP caucus who penned agressively worded op-ed pieces calling major environmentalists dishonest. It was the other way around.

holy Batman

What possible words of witticism and insight could be added here?

I suspect only these: EDITED FOR PERSONAL INSULTS

Please, more smiley emoticons.

I am heartened by so many

I am heartened by so many not feeding the trolls here. The more they are ignored the better.

Responding to their bully ways is exactly what they want to prop up the fake-believe reality they have constructed for themselves.

Their teenage lashing out is the only thing they have.

Best just to walk on.

Glad to see the developing consensus ...

... that the carbon tax was not a big issue. This puts to bed the notion that the Greens somehow cost the NDP the election.

We now return you to the discussion of the merits of Carole James remaining at the helm.

Those waiting in the wings,

Trying to think of a person in the NDP to replace Carole is really pointless. None of them have any experience just like Carole did when she got the job. Now they at least all have provincial government experience which means that when the time comes someone will step into the breech. At least such a person will not require another four years to learn what being an MLA is all about.

The average person does not monitor the political scene and rarely picks up on political events so none of the names mentioned will register. I would guess that none of those mentioned by Amor de cosmos above would rate a second's worth of consideration given the oppositions performance so far. Some of the suggestions are downright laughable. Strangely Farnworth, Kwan, Krog, Horgan and Dix are probably the most effective MLA's in the Opposition and they are from the Clark era. Most of the others are still "in training" and not doing too well at that. Trevena? Austin? You must be joking.

Someone may break out of the straight jacket that Carole has imposed and then there will be possibilities. Right now it appears as if they along with their leader are just content to have a job that pays handsomely while the rest of us pay for their ineffectiveness. At least I have decided that if Carole stays I will find another choice. If she thinks her place in history is more important than the future of the province...well, that is enough for me. Carole needs to go and take Scott and Fox with her.

The next choice then has to be based on merit, not gender and not ethnicity. We should learn from our mistakes not kepp prolonging the agony..

Renewal time

James has been leading the NDP in the wrong direction, and her failure in this campaign follows from her poor decisions during the last two years. The carbon tax issue hurt not because of the tax itself, but that it sent the message that the NDP would ditch its principles over the prospects of gaining a few votes. The gender requirement for nominations showed a renewed commitment to affirmative action policies that have proven to be totally ineffective while poisoning their internal party processes. The embarrassing negative campaign was needed because they failed to develop positive policies. When the Liberals dealt with problems by providing poor or disfunctional solutions - hospital and school closures come to mind - James simply opposed change and ignored the problems.

Her resignation would signal a commitment to renewal. Throwing her out at the next convention would be even better.

what voters are looking for.

I liked Dion, (not that I ever would vote liberal), but I found him to be the kind of person I could identify with; however most people saw it differently, and his replacement has brought the party up considerably in the standings.

May I say that I do like James too, and like with Dion, very few people saw her as a leader either.

We can only hope that NDP finds a new leader that can catch on the way that Iggy has!

I believe that voters are looking for a person they can identify with, a person they feel looks and act the way they see themselves.

Ironically, here in BC apparantly many voters see themselves as above poverty and with potentials to be succesfull!

Maybe they even identify wity having a swinging lifestyle (booze and a girlfriend on the side?)

Greens not a factor

KevinC
... that the carbon tax was not a big issue. This puts to bed the notion that the Greens somehow cost the NDP the election.

We now return you to the discussion of the merits of Carole James remaining at the helm

I agree that the Greens were not a factor in the election insofar as their own political activities were concerned. That party has gone through too many purges over the years to be a truly active organization, and is now really just a flag of convenience for the Liberals, federal and provincial, who want to keep some percentage of the vote away from the NDP. Another ten or fifteen seats for Jack Layton would be serious trouble for the Federal Liberals.

But in this provincial election the basic situation is different than on the national stage. One could argue arithmetically that the Green vote cost the NDP this seat or that, but those arguments are no more realistic than counterpart arguments on the right, the supposed need to keep the "free enterprise" vote in the coalition column.

In provincial politics the NDP enjoys major party status, so anyone cross pressured between the NDP and the Greens is already likely to have made the choice to vote NDP. The remaining Green vote is clearly very right wing and anti-labour, as was made clear by the election night theatrics of the Green candidate in Oak Bay-Gordon Head, and by the party's full-throated opposition to increasing the minimum wage.

The carbon tax itself was not a major motivator, except for people in some of the denser urban precincts who were avid supporters of the tax because it's a nice accessory for their personal political "branding" statement, a fashionable and au courrant green trim on their concrete jungle lifestyle.

What the carbon tax non-issue did do was provide an officially sanctioned excuse for the well-financed, well-paid, big-name, environmental Elmer Gantrys, those who stood to profit personally and organizationally from private hydro developments and a more regressive tax system, to viciously excoriate and denounce Carole James, a woman they are personally contemptuous of since she doesn't share their "values". Like 19th Century missionaries or 20th Century televangelists, they are "doing very well doing good", and they didn't want James spoiling their fun by going to an Obama cap and trade system instead of the revenue neutral carbon tax, and they certainly didn't want her delaying their private hydro projects by half a year.

re: holy Batman

A little clarification...that was written with IRONY.

It was not actually EDITED FOR PERSONAL INSULTS, just my (apparently inept) attempt to be ironically humorous.
:0

And back to regular programming.

LOL

VivianLea, perhaps if you concluded your remarks with "LOL", all would have realized it was a joke.
Maybe we are witnessing the death of irony.

Slithey

"but that it sent the message that the NDP would ditch its principles over the prospects of gaining a few votes."

The decision whether to have a carbon tax or not is at the policy level, its not a "principle" of the NDP.

Here's the Manitoba NDP's principles for example :

"Our society must change from one based on competition to one based on cooperation.

We wish to create a society where individuals give according to their abilities, and receive according to their needs.

We believe present human endeavours must become environmentally sound in order to ensure that future generations may have access to an abundant and diverse biosphere.

Our commitment to the electorate is to be forthright about our long-range goals as well as practical about our short-term political activities.

Our purpose as a movement is to foster social change toward a more cooperative society. Our purpose as a political party is to develop a public mandate for that social change through giving individuals greater control in the economy, their workplace, and their community.

Our actions and words must reflect our fundamental faith in the capacity of people to live cooperatively and to work for the betterment of all."

North of Hope

I confess I am a snob and hate LOL and OMG and ...blah, blah, blah.

However, I will try to do better in alerting all to my irony - the emoticons work better for me...WTF?

Smiley for Frank :)

Thank you for that,

VivianLea,

Me too, how I hate that "LOL" thing ... which never remotely suggests "JOKE" for me ... rather, I read it as "loll" or layabout and then I come scrambling back up the garden path, grumbling, no joke.

Cripes, even if somebody did LAUGH OUT LOUD at the end of each paragraph, wouldn't you just yearn to punch him/her in the nose to make him/her stop?

Because that'll be the next thing, an emoti-noise button, where you get to hear some yahoo LOL.

For some reason, "wtf" works for me, though, as it discretely states the case without getting down and dirty. Nobody gets ordered to pretend mirth, as in

LOL ... jeez ... yes, stomp, stomp, and grinding of the heel ... may LOLL be crushed like a bug ... composted ... to become a far far better thing, like ... well, a real joke.

Thanks, VivianLea, we've waited a long time for a chance to say that.

OMG

BC Mary - how nice that someone agrees with me. Yeah, for some unknown reason LOL tends to piss me off.
WTF?

Carole gets the pay raise too

Perfect 'Friday-leak' story.

"VICTORIA — Special to The Globe and Mail, Friday, May. 22, 2009 SEAN HOLMAN

New Democrat MLAs are ending their caucus-wide policy of donating controversial pay raises for politicians, scrapping a practice that Leader Carole James pointed to as recently as the televised election debate. ..."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com

QdN

First let's deal with the elephant

Sorry, but there are alarm bells ringing right across this province...

Time really is of the essence and there is definitely not time to dilly-dally around while Ms. James finds her latest vision....

Ordinarily, I would suggest ( in a horse before cart sense ) that it is vital that the NDP determine what they clearly stand for ....and what the line in the sand is for them as a party.

But again, tick-tock, time is running out...

Wouldn't a leader know there is only one real message to get out in these dire times?:

The Selling of BC.....and its citizenry.

Wouldn't a leader say loud and clear that our human rights as citizens of this province have literally been privatized by the policies of the present government, that foreign corporations now own and control those rights ......meaning they literally own us all?

Wouldn't a leader see the crucial need to identify the elephant in the room a little more quickly and clearly, because time is of the utmost essence now...

And because THE only issue is one of autonomy.

Autonomy in our own province, over our own land.

Autonomy in our rights as citizens.

Without autonomy all other issues become impossible to address.

(And here one can't help but acknowledge the great karmic and wry irony in this....that this is how First Nations must have felt and still do feel: that one cannot address problems of social infra-structure, of resources, of the economy, of poverty, if one has no autonomous power over them....if one is at the mercy of others.)

Still, there is no reason we cannot address and mend more than one thing at a time, and instead of allowing the corporations to co-opt the treaty process for their own benefit and profit, perhaps FN's and non-FN's alike, can mutually chart and gain their own autonomy and we can both say a final adieu to infiltration by greedy corporations.

We could then proceed from there....with all our diverse viewpoints and histories... but at least the massive elephant standing in the midst of us all would finally be acknowledged and named...and hopefully made to speedily retreat.

right wing attacks

realisticman said, "New Democrat MLAs are ending their caucus-wide policy of donating controversial pay raises for politicians" They said that the policy would go until the election, which has just happened. Get with it and quite the attacks on the NDP. It sounds like an attack ad from the right. Your ilk whined about them so much during the election it became an attack itself and it left you with no time to discuss your policy, if you have one.
Since you believe all is to be rosie under Campbell, will you pay the increase in my BC Hydro bill?

sound good lynn

sound good lynn

hypocrisy and munching on children

I didn't say anything. I quoted the press, which pointed out that just a couple of weeks ago this policy was again used by the NDP in an attack on the government. In a flash the money has now been grabbed!

There was always a strong suspicion that the NDP campaign attack-ads were over the top and would backfire, just as did those against Jean Chretien; seems that they did.

"The first 60-second video spot, which can be viewed at www.MoveForwardBC.ca, features a series of hyperbolic claims such as "Gordon Campbell tried to kill your Grandma," "Gordon Campbell is fighting a secret war against wild salmon and river otters," and "Gordon Campbell eats children."

http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:JEkzcwnBhLsJ:www.cope378.ca/news/does-gordon-campbell-hate-you-0+gordon+campbell+eats+children&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

COPE has now dropped the link.

realisticman

From the article,
"We wanted to do something fun that got people's attention this election, while still asking some of the harsher questions that need to be asked," said Andy Ross, President of COPE 378. "There is no reason why we can't approach this election with a sense of humour at the same time that we call the Campbell government to account for its policies," added Ross.

Stop taking quotes out of context.

michael maser: Who really forced that election?

I have copied this post by michael maser from the Hook story on Penn's announcement, since that story is now closed.

Some important, recent political history ... fyi
michael maser
let's cover some history, for fun and learning, and the edification of various readers and posters here.

Which federal political leader was it who refused all entreaties by national and int'l enviro orgs to not defeat a Liberal gov't, on the cusp of Canada's most significant international enviro conference, ever, knowing that it would bring down a minority gov't and trigger a federal election ...

Why, that was Jack Layton, and he did so, and it did trigger an election, the result of which was ... the election of Stephen Harper at the expense of Paul Martin's Liberals.

Was this insignificant, given Canada's and BC's political make-up today?! How about being honest for a change about political history that has recently shaped present-day reality.

As maser knows, Paul Martin's Liberals badly wanted the 2006 election, and had a big spree of spending announcements and a fleet of Govt of Canada Challenger jets ready to roll the minute it came. As maser also knows, the Liberals deliberately staged their own defeat by refusing to cooperate with any of the opposition parties. They were ahead in the polls, it looked good for them, so they wanted to go. It just didn't turn out the way they and maser wanted. Tough luck.

As for the bit about "national and int'l enviro orgs" all begging the Bloc and the NDP not to defeat Martin's Govt, I don't recall hearing this at the time. I don't say it never happened, I just don't recall hearing it at the time. Perhaps maser has a link or two, who knows.

But since highly paid career environmentalists put great store in their international jet-set conferences, be they in Bali, Brazil, Montreal or Copenhagen, it's possible they really wanted Martin's Govt to keep on rolling. If they were getting really good cooperation on hosting and expense matters from Dion's Environment Dept and feared that an election might prevent any further expenditure committments, one can easily understand their intense anxiety. For the sake of the planet, that is!

I agree with maser's suggestion that we all be honest, and would pointedly recommend that thought to him. Just for a change.

Lynn.....

Indeed the sky must be falling. I have been hearing the left telling me that all my life and since it hasn't happened yet, it is bound to happen soon.

But you will have to wait another four years to do something about it.

Frank...

Sounds like a bible.. but Gary Doer doesn't give damn.

Manitoba Hydro:

1. Yes to big dam construction for export power;

2. Yes to expensive purchases of IPP power;

BC NDP? NOPE. Ya, we agreed with same in the late 1990's while we were in power, but that's bad now 'cause we are not in power.

Manitoba Child Poverty:

1. Almost as high as BC's even though Manitoba has a much lower cost of living.

BC NDP? While child poverty is lower than its highest point during the NDP reign of the 1990's... let's blame the Libs for the lower child poverty rate since the 1990's... 'cause we are not in power.

Manitoba Corporate Capital Tax:

1. Eliminate it altogether.

BC NDP? Let's increase it substantially now, 'cause we are not in power.

Manitoba Corporate Tax Credits:

1. Let's increase same to assist business.

BC NDP? Let's tax the shite out of 'em starting with $400 million in the natural gas sector. Who cares about the impact upon provincial revenues... 'cause we are not in power.

I can go on and on.

Gary Doer is the Dan Miller of the BC NDP.

Increase economic activity including IPP's, business tax credits, and offshore natural gas to increase provincial revenues to fund health care, social services, and education.

Gary Doer is a successful politician as a result of thinking along the lines of BC's Dan Miller with a 66% approval rating. The BC NDP is not in that league.

No wonder the BC NDP is perceived by the public to be weak in terms of the economy.

Of course, the BC NDP has wayyyyy too much of that "Dumb and Dumber" element within its ranks compared to Doer's Manitoba. :D

Luke

"While child poverty is lower than its highest point during the NDP reign of the 1990's... let's blame the Libs for the lower child poverty rate since the 1990's... 'cause we are not in power."

Oh man, you really don't want to go there.

Canada's poverty rate as a whole was much higher in the 1990's. Canada-wide it peaked in 1996. BC's rate in 1994 and again in 2000-01 was higher than the Cdn average but in all the other years, it wasn't.

During the Liberal reign in BC the rate has been higher than the Cdn average, EVERY SINGLE YEAR. In fact, it has averaged higher than it did in the 1990's in spite of the Cdn average dropping.

"I can go on and on."

I know, you keep repeating the same fallacies no matter how many times you've been proven wrong. Its the old, "I'll just keep saying it over and over cuz eventually Frank will get tired".

"Gary Doer is the Dan Miller of the BC NDP. "

Actually, Dan Miller is in the BC NDP and Gary Doer is an NDP politician in Manitoba.

"Gary Doer is a successful politician as a result of thinking along the lines of BC's Dan Miller"

This would be the same Gary Doer that lost 3 elections before finally winning?

And I don't think even Dan Miller himself would say Doer is looking to him for policy guidance.

"to increase provincial revenues to fund health care, social services, and education."

Sounds good,when will it start happening?

Dum-dee-dum

Manitoba Hydro:

"1. Yes to big dam construction for export power;"

I thought the BC liberals were opposed to BC Hydro building dams? So its okay for Manitoba Hydro to generate new electricity but in BC we have to have private companies do it for us and then sell the power to Hydro at a profit?

"2. Yes to expensive purchases of IPP power;"

Ya, whatever. From Wiki : "Starting in 2005, a wind farm was built near St. Leon, Manitoba. Power generated by this privately constructed plant is purchased by Manitoba Hydro for distribution on its network. The capacity of this installation is 99.9 MW, comprising 63 wind turbines of 1.65 MW each. THIS IS THE FIRST PRIVATELY-OWNED GRID-CONNECTED GENERATION TO BE CONSTRUCTED IN MANITOBA IN NEARLY FIFTY YEARS. Energy produced by this facility will is subsidized by the Canadian Government's Wind Power Production Incentive, though over the life of the project tax revenue will exceed the value of the initial subsidy."

"BC NDP? NOPE. Ya, we agreed with same in the late 1990's while we were in power, but that's bad now 'cause we are not in power."

Of course the scale of the projects built under the NDP have been dwarfed by several orders of magnitude by the ones being approved by the Liberals but we'll ignore that.

North of Hope

quoteting your quote:

"There is no reason why we can't approach this election with a sense of humour ..."
(Andy Ross, President of COPE 378)

Now, aren't I silly! I though Gordon Campbell really did eat babies!

" ... I was only joking my dear
Looking for a way to hide my fear
What kind of fool was i
I could never win ..."

written by Gary Grainger and Rod Stewart

You can say that again, Rod!

Perplexing

I have always found BC's lefties, or all those in Canada for that matter, a rather perplexing lot.

There are two main wings of the Faithful in my observation.

1. The Holier than Thou Wing.

This wing of the party loves to stand on the pulpit and preach to the converted of the evils of any government that is not NDP. They believe staying Faithful to their Principles is the Noble Way to Power and Truth and that these principles are not to be bent for any reason. More moderates such as Mike Harcourt, Bob Rae and Gary Doer are in fact worse that creeps like Mike Harris because they have strayed from the Noble Way, ie they have actually had to govern, which is a lot harder than preaching.

This has some real benefits because you can preach, castigate and indeed feel Holier than Thou but since they know they will never actually form a government, they can feel safe in their role. They will never actually have to put their money where their mouths lie, as it were.

2. The "We Hate Everything Wing."

This is a relatively small group but boy do they make noise way out of proportion of their size. The CUPE hate ads were the prime example of this wing. They get themselves worked into a lather about any politician that is not true to Social Revolution. I have not ever seen a detailed platform from this group other than hating the other party. That said, if they feel their leader has Strayed from the Noble Way, they will in fact hate that person even more than the governing party.

The main thing the above two wings has in common is a complete inability to listen to anything outside themselves and have any sort of introspection. For example, when the Liberals lost in 1996, they very carefully looked inside themselves for what when wrong and successfully fixed it. The Faithful, be they they Holier than Thou or Angry, are incapable of this

There is a third way that wants to moderate the rhetoric for the sake of reason and therefore attract more voters. This was the Mike Harcourt way and I suspect Gregor Robertson tends this way as well. They are also despised by the above two wings more than anything, more than even Premier Campbell.

And in the end of the day, only the third way has proven to work for the NDP in Canada. To get elected you need a coalition and the two wings here in BC actively work against that. Thus, they are not in power and seem very comfortable with that.

Wilf, dear one

Perplexing? Perplexed?

You're on the right track here. :)

Vivian self-satisfied

Vivian self-satisfied sanctimony is all you have here pushing your bully-thoughts everywhere.

you are eternally wrong and so the only thing you can do is self-righteously post again and again until we obey your delusional ravings.

If you and G-West are so utterly dim as to not see the absolute sexist nature of the James NDP as a stumbling block to success (one might even think she exists to ensure the bc libs stay in power given her record as leader), then there is nothing to say to you troll because you discard the thoughts and feelings of both the men and women who see REALITY for what it is.

Not progressive, not thoughtful, not empathetic, just greedy, selfish and dim.

It is rather cute that ads

It is rather cute that ads which were not made by the NDP get billed as NDP attacks.

THE NDP HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THEM.

the "Hate Everything" faction

This group yearns for a Mao-like upheaval. They think that the state should own, run and provide everything. No wonder there's no platform. For some strange reason they imagine that this will come about just as long as they stay active in the NDP and make sure it stays on the leftmost periphery.

The party will have to confront the extremists diehards and the more pragmatic faction. The meetings in the coming months will be short of consensus and almost certainly fractious. Membership will initially decline as one group or another gains sway and the other is rejected.

Please explicate Michael T

How is a policy which aims, over time, to address the gender inequality which exists and is reflected in every power structure in this society sexist?

Furthermore, please explain how your slanderous 'personal' diatribes against particular posters here are not 'EDITED FOR PERSONAL INSULTS'?

Good morning, G West :)

MichaelT, here's a quote from one of my postings upthread:

Nice is good. Smiling, and smiley emoticons are good.

realisticman and Wilf

Sorry, but two guys that are so far to the Right that they have never found a single thing they like about the NDP and a single thing they don't like about the Campbell government are the last people anyone here is going to bother looking to for political advice.

Because until the NDP decides to get rid of the minimum wage, get rid of social programs, abandon universal health care and extract methane from every park they won't get your vote.

And somehow, the rest of us are fine with that and are able to go on with our lives. You both should try doing the same, dull as they are.

realisticman and Wilf

Sorry, but two guys that are so far to the Right that they have never found a single thing they like about the NDP and a single thing they don't like about the Campbell government are the last people anyone here is going to bother looking to for political advice.

Because until the NDP decides to get rid of the minimum wage, get rid of social programs, abandon universal health care and extract methane from every park they won't get your vote.

And somehow, the rest of us are fine with that and are able to go on with our lives. You both should try doing the same, dull as they are.

realisticman and Wilf

Sorry, but two guys that are so far to the Right that they have never found a single thing they like about the NDP and a single thing they don't like about the Campbell government are the last people anyone here is going to bother looking to for political advice.

Because until the NDP decides to get rid of the minimum wage, get rid of social programs, abandon universal health care and extract methane from every park they won't get your vote.

And somehow, the rest of us are fine with that and are able to go on with our lives. You both should try doing the same, dull as they are.

Perplexing

I have always found the BC Righties (Socred/Reformers/Liberals) a perplexing lot.

There are two main types:

1.) The "Holier than thou lot" that believe every lie told by their government and spin every mistake and scandal as just the imagination of the socialist hordes. They can never be wrong.

2.) The "I'm all right Jack" that believe they have the divine right to exploit every other British Columbian including the exploitation of every resource for short-term profit with the end justifying any means.

This species loves socialism when the large corporations need bailouts but when workers want an increase in wages or even the minimum wage they think the economy will go into the crapper. Yeah, perplexing.

Hate Ads

"THE NDP HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THEM."

Nor did they disavow them, either.

Carole James: the illlogic of it all

At the outset, forgive me for not being an NDP apologist (there seem to be quite a few here), and forgive me for paraphrasing James' post-election comments.

The NDP leader admits that she failed to run a positive campaign, failed to offer voters a clear, viable alternative. And for this, she takes full responsibility. So far, so good. She essentially sums up the obvious - what every single pundit, short of G West, has concluded.

Yet, from these premises, she therefore concludes it best for the party that she stay on and fight toward 2013! My hope is that James is simply issuing a veiled interim decision to quit in the interests of strategy and short term stability. But the tone she exudes suggests she's actually serious about leading the party into 2013.

James had a decent final flourish in the campaign, but it really was more the result of a "nothing to lose, we're gonna get blown out anyway" realization than anything to do with skillful politicking. Where was this flourish a year ago, 6 months ago, a month ago? Aside from the final few days, where was it in the campaign? I saw, for the most part, an awkward, incompetent leader who did little more than take a bunch of media people for a plane ride through the clouds, getting them air-sick and increasing their carbon footprint in the process.

The NDP is a party in need of a healthy overhaul, a re-branding, and as Dennis Pilon correctly noted after the game, the best way to re-brand an organism is to cut off its head. Instead, Carole takes her proverbial walk in the sand and finds reason to stay. This, itself, represents what's wrong with the current BC NDP - a lack of vision and creativity. The world is burning, and the best James and her team can come up with is, Gordon Campbell is a bad man, followed by Axe the Gas Tax? The writing has been on the wall for a good 4 years and the only ones who seem unable to read it are James and her closest allies.

A good finish does not a good campaign make. James' best hope at preserving her legacy would have been to resign graciously on election night, doing so while relatively ahead and while positioning the party in a way that at least gives it a fair foundation to re-build upon.

wayfarer

There were no actual ideas in your post as to what the NDP should do policy-wise or who the leader should be.

The only cliche phrase you left out was "need for a paradigm shift".

Well Said

Well said, wayfayer. Unfortunately, the Faithful and the Angry and not capable of listening to anyone but themselves, the phenomenon of incestuous amplification. The Faithful cannot admit they made any errors that led to their defeat. It is always someone else's fault, being in the "necons" or Canwest. As long as the Liberals stay a big tent party they cannot hold power in the present form. This is why the have only held power 13 of the last 128 years.

But like I have stated repeatedly, it is much easier being Holier Than Thou of you don't actually have to govern. This is why I don't really think the Faithful actually want to govern.

Frank...

"There were no actual ideas in your post as to what the NDP should do policy-wise or who the leader should be."

I would like to see you opinion on this issue, Frank.

Frank

Dear Frank, in reply to your non sequitur, you wrote:

"There were no actual ideas in your post as to what the NDP should do..."

It's not my job to offer the NDP the elixir it so thirsts for. I am not a party member. I am offering you a voter's perspective, a voter's criticism of how James ran her campaign and how she reacted to it in the wake of defeat, and she failed to inspire me and most other anti-Campbell voters on the left.

Wilf

Why? You're not an NDP supporter.

wayfarer

So in other word's you're a non-voter looking for Obama-like inspiration and speeches and not interested in the pros and cons of boring policies?

There are a lot of parties out there, I hope the dozen that didn't win a seat hear your words about rebranding and being inspiring.

Frank

I was not offering advice, just making an observation.

Plenty of advice here from within your own ranks.

My observation predicts severe internal battles ahead.

The way to unite the party

Aim all your guns at the Liberals. Use dry powder and launch a merciless attack on their credibility. Not nice but effective. Get rid of deadwood and apologists in the ranks. Start thinking about the larger objective. It's the about the people not "my" job.

realisticman

"My observation predicts severe internal battles ahead."

There always have been and always will be internal battles. Its part of politics and very unlike the BC Liberal cult where nobody ever criticizes party policies and you're always singing Kum-bah-yah together.

For example

The advice offered by one's enemies is nearly always NOT the thing to listen to.

James's mistake, in my view, was not running a more critical and tougher campaign...had she gotten down to wallow in the filth Campbell's supporters deal with every day there is very little doubt that the CEO would no longer be Premier of this province.

Campbell certainly didn't demur when it came to using her sex and her alleged lack of business acumen against her.

The NDP is made of nice, caring people who see government's role as addressing the needs of the whole population - Campbell sees government as a way to reward his friends and solidify their hegemony over the rest of the population.

I think that conclusion is fairly obvious - as an 'observation'.

I certainly don't expect the CEO to change - and I think the NDP would be nuts if it did. We already have one rightwing party - God knows we don't need another one.

So, one either supports Skywalker's tactic or doesn't.

Sadly, I think that there is a cost to lowering oneself to the level of one's critics - we certainly don't need any more cabinet ministers of the Moe Sihota type.

I'll keep on chipping away and try to ignore advice from people I have no desire to please, still, as Sun Tzu puts it:
The enemy's spies who have come to spy on us must be sought out, tempted with bribes, led away and comfortably housed. Thus they will become double agents and available for our service. It is through the information brought by the double agent that we are able to acquire and employ local and inward spies. It is owing to his information, again, that we can cause the doomed spy to carry false tidings to the enemy.

Love that bit, from good-buddy Tzu

" It is owing to his information, again, that we can cause the doomed spy to carry false tidings to the enemy."

That's right West. Some dippers were convinced they were going to actually win!

Skywalker, it's a bit late. You just lost. Sun Tzu wouldn't approve. Here's another reason for the NDP to take a long holiday.

"Thus it is that in war the victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterwards looks for victory." Sun Tzu

Good on ya, Carole!

Old time politicians such as Rafe Mair don't understand CJ's concensus style of government. They want blood and fire (aka empty rhetoric).

James' fault (if it was one, which is debatable) was not running a campaign that attracted the 52% of the sluggards who didn't vote.

Yeah, I find it sort of

Yeah, I find it sort of hilarious that folks like Luke and Wilf have the gall to pretend they know why the NDP lost the election offering all sorts of empty rhetoric "advice" for the poor deluded NDP faithful...

The truth is, however, if the media slant was the other direction we would have won.

That's not "blame" - that is the truth.

The Liberals won in spite of their campaign, not because of it. They did nothing "inspiring" and certainly didn't offer a positive message.

That's not to say the NDP campaign was good. It wasn't what it needed to be. The fact of the matter is because of the heavy media bias against the NDP - we have to run twice as good of a campaign as the Libs to win. That's just the way it goes.

Until Canwest tanks and takes its "donate to the Liberals, endorse them and get 10s of millions of dollars in advertisements" revenue model with it, that is what we will be stuck with.

It's too bad that the NDP was naive enough to put their huge cuts to government advertising in their platform - the media was desperate to defeat the NDP because they knew we were going to shutter the pork barrel.

C'mon Folks! The next election is 4 years away.

Who can really judge what BC is going to be like four years from now? Ask yourself if fours years ago you imagined a BC that we have today.

That being said, four years from now, Carol James may or may not be the leader the NDP needs and may or may not be the Premier that BC needs or wants.

As for the Liberals? "There's many a chance for slip, twixt cup and lip" as the Bard so wonderfully puts it. Or maybe they will get an epiphany and boot out Gordo and his pretenders.

Meanwhile. Let's play nice.

nice dr alexander

I'm down with nice...just get the word out to the CEO; the latest news is that, in this 8th year of the Gord, welfare applications from two parents families are rising faster than the mid-afternoon temperature on my deck.

I don't think there's much call to play nice until I see some indication that the guv'nor has changed his stripes.

Nice doesn't work with folks who hate your guts for caring when their whole approach to life is avoiding the importance of that emotion.

These guys put a price on everything - and there's no way around that fact.

Bad as things are now, with the economy stating to tank, the speculation that we'll be doing any better under this crew seems a lot like idle to me....

Cheers though.

I disagree

"The truth is, however, if the media slant was the other direction we would have won."

I disagree with the above. There was plenty of favourable media for Carole and Co including 24, the Georgia Straight and of course the Tyee among others. Many CBC pieces were blatantly biased towards the NDP as well.

"That's not "blame" - that is the truth."

If you lose and you claim it is somebody else's fault, it sounds like blame to me.

Hate

"Nice doesn't work with folks who hate your guts for caring when their whole approach to life is avoiding the importance of that emotion."

Garth, don't you do plenty of hating yourself? Haven't you been ranting (to no effect) about the Premier here for the last five years or so? Are you any better? I don't actually see you presenting any alternatives, either.

Nicely Waiting for Godot

A much nicer and kinder speech than the original:

"Even though large tracts of Europe and many old and famous States have fallen or may fall into the grip of the Gestapo and all the odious apparatus of Nazi rule, what the hell... we have four more years to think things through, what's the hurry? Four more years and four more years equals?...gosh!.... only a mere eight years. And four more years....a mere twelve. Whatever. I mean, really, what's the rush?

No.... We shall go on to the end quietly, we shall fight nicely in France, we shall fight nicely on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with sorta growing confidence and sorta growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island as soon as we find our new vision, after all we have four more years....sigh... whatever.....sigh... whatever the cost to the public may be, we shall fight nicely on the beaches, we shall fight nicely on the landing grounds, we shall fight nicely in the fields and nicely in the streets, we shall fight nicely in the hills; we shall ever surrender ever so nicely, and even if, which I do not for a moment believe, this Island/Province or a large part of it were subjugated and starving with the highest child poverty rate in Canada, then we would still carry on the struggle ever so nicely and in our own good time... until, in Godot's good time, the New World Order, with all its power and might, steps forth, with its big not-so-nice boot and crushes us... ever so nicely."

with respect...

Dr Alexander suggested we "play nice" - which does not mean submission. One can advocate for ditching the metaphors of 'war', or 'the struggle', or 'the revolution' without being passive, dumbly cowed...or anything less than fully engaged.

I would propose John Ralston Saul's take on ISUMA:

"The Inuit quality of isuma summarizes that essential context. It has as much to do with positive nationalism as with the public good. Isuma – intelligence that consists of the knowledge of our responsibilities towards our society. It is a characteristic which grows with time. If you choose to look, you can find it at the core of events through the long line of the Canadian experience. It is an intelligence, the Inuit say, which grows because it is nurtured." (Reflections of a Siamese Twin)

I suppose I am proposing that we take isuma as a metaphor for the work of the left/progressives/inner greens...

wayfarer: When, where, did Pilon say that???

wayfarer
... and as Dennis Pilon correctly noted after the game, the best way to re-brand an organism is to cut off its head.

I am curious wayfarer as to where or when Prof Pilon of UVic said this.

Jime Hume, Stephen Hume, and Mark Hume

Moonbug
The truth is, however, if the media slant was the other direction we would have won.

That's not "blame" - that is the truth.
...
It's too bad that the NDP was naive enough to put their huge cuts to government advertising in their platform - the media was desperate to defeat the NDP because they knew we were going to shutter the pork barrel.

Moonbug, you're getting dangerously close to the bone here! I have always tried to tell people that the real economic input into mass media content is that of the advertiser (ie, the paying customer) rather than the owner. The loss of the BC Govt contract at a time when private advertisers are already cutting back would be a most unwelcome development.

As for the content, Stephen Hume had a column in the Sun the other day explaining how totally balanced the CanWest coverage was, and how pathetic the NDP whining is. There's just one problem. I am old enough to remember the columns Stephen's father Jim Hume used to run, excoriating the Barrett administration. Jim Hume didn't have any use for the NDP either, and neither does Mark Hume.

A couple of days ago a

A couple of days ago a Reaside Cartoon was interesting. The guy jabs Gordo more often the James. It showed the NDP crowd clapping as the announcer said. Here she is the new Premier of BC for 2025, as a older white haired woman in runnning shoes and pushing a walker made her way across the stage. Mind you another just after the election showed Ms. James at a race finish line, next lane over we saw a cloud of dust. So she wanted to know when the pole as in first past the pole was? The guy said. Campbell sold it to the CNR . The lady has dithered on a number of issues, threw away a long time NDP position of ALR lands and changed her mind about pay raises. I too think Gordo is gone after his many appearances on the Olympic stage. She needs a image remake, and some staff that can quickly change direction when required. will it happen? I'm not so sure

Will it happen for any NDP leader?

DPL
She needs a image remake, and some staff that can quickly change direction when required. will it happen? I'm not so sure

Will the NDP organization work to effect an improvement in the image of any leader, or any local candidate?

nice is often not so nice

Sorry, VivianLea, can't agree on this one...

I like the "war" metaphor because that is what this is....

And we are losing it.

Most of us who post here have comfortable lives....with a certain reservoir of time on our side. Not so with many others....with a shocking 47% increase in welfare cases in BC since last year....and an increasingly shameful child poverty rate. The autonomy of this province,
and our rights as citizens are both under massive threat ...rivers in the hundreds about to be sold to foreign control....just a few of the items on a very nasty Campbell government "to do" list.

But I gotta ask, seriously, what does a political party do when it "plays nice"? .... ....needs more details....is it like that ubiquitous phrase "have a nice day" that immediately tells you the person doesn't really give a damn how your day goes?

Again, in the following quote from Carole James ....sounds nice....but to whom is it nice?

Quote from Ms. James in the article above:

"I'm looking forward to the campaign already," she said in a phone interview a week after losing the provincial election to Premier Gordon Campbell's B.C. Liberal Party. "We'll start the outreach now."

Nice.... and ironical.

we'll agree to disagree, cheerfully

Lynn. But few could be more acutely aware of no "reservoir of time" as I...and some of us that post here do not have comfortable lives, including me.

Nice can be a terrible ubiquitous word, you are right. But in the personal context, it can be extremely powerful.

lynn

The rhetoric may be stirring but there is no way in God's creation that anything going on in Canada is in any way as bad as the Nazi regime was. This regime had absolutely no regards for human rights or due process whatsoever, so you may be trying to sound high minded but to compare this province to the Hitler era does his victims a huge injustice. Such a comparison is flatly absurd.

In case you haven't noticed, lynn, to the south of the of the 4 million people of British Columbia is a country of 300 million in the midst of the biggest economic meltdown since 1929. The country is and always has been the largest purchaser of our raw materials, in particular forest products. When that country is not building houses, people in this province will lose their jobs. No government, Liberal, NDP or Raving Monster Loony is going change that. Resource based economies operate in cycles and that is not about to change any time soon.

So instead if the silly rhetoric, the best thing for your party to do is find a way to get elected and hold power because otherwise, your fanciful blather is just that, blather.

To Rod Smelser: The Pilon comment

Rod,

I heard the Pilon comment (re: re-branding and cutting off of heads, etc...) buried deep in a CHEK TV story a couple days after the election.

I think the point here is that a change is needed, and that change must begin with leadership.

Voters aren't stupid. If they don't vote in large numbers, they have a reason. James (and Campbell) need to address that. The solution, I believe, is electoral reform. But that's another post.

I'll tell you what doesn't wash with the average voter: hyper-negative personal attacks and conspiracy theories about how the media is responsible for influencing an election one way or another.

The other thing that doesn't wash is the constant harping on how scandalous your opponent is. Do all you NDPers remember Bingogate? Or Clark's involvement in Deckgate (Pilarinos)? The fast ferry fiasco? Enough already. Voters want hard, solid solutions to our problems. As much as it pains me to admit it, Campbell did a way better job of this PR exercise than James did. Campbell went positive, James went negative, and the former won, hands down. Lessons need to be learned. Sour grapes are, well, sour and boring.

All parties have scandalous blood on their hands, the NDP included. Time to focus less on the negative and come up with some positive, viable policy alternatives. There were certain NDP candidates who did amazingly well at presenting a positive platform (Fleming, Horgan come to mind), but James failed; and her prize? She appoints herself leader for another 4 years, predicts victory in 2013. Gimme a break.

wayfarer

Bingogate was by far the worst political scandal in BC history and right up there with anything that has ever happened in Canada. Imagine funneling "charity" bingo revenues straight into the party coffers and doing it for years to boot. But the Faithful do not remember this. Me thinks many voters do.

The fast ferries were wanted by nobody except Glen Clark and the Ship builders union. BC Ferries didn't want them and a renowned marine architect said they would not work. He was right and also won a defamation suit against Clark. What this episode represented was the arrogance of the Clark government, which was about as arrogant as it got. It turned into a whirly-gig at the end but the Faithful seem to forget that his performance led to his party getting only two seats.

So no government is free of scandal and yes, lessons need to be learned. The overriding problem with the NDP is that it cannot accept criticism from anyone, be they from inside or outside the party. Incestuous amplification takes over, the blame their defeats on others and they decide they are going to win. Except they don't and the cycle continues. They only time that they have ever won their opposition was split.

Accepting mistakes is a hard thing. The Liberals lost in 1996 even when getting a larger popular vote than the NDP. They admitted that their riding tactics were poorly planned and their canvassing and calling were aimed at the wrong people. They (correctly it turned out) realised that they best way of using limited resources was to focus on getting people who will vote for you out to the polls. Canvassing much in Mount Pleasant, for example, is a waste of time for the Liberals and they know it, so they don't bother.

In the end, it is all a moot point. The NDP has shown itself incapable of learning from election defeats. It is comfortable in the role of opposition and is now happy to take the pay raises they said they were against. It is much easier to be Holier than Thou if you don't have a record to run on like that of Glen Clark. And who knows, you might just luck out.

I guess that mean's there's no link

wayfarer
I heard the Pilon comment (re: re-branding and cutting off of heads, etc...) buried deep in a CHEK TV story a couple days after the election.

I guess that mean's there's no link.

There were certain NDP candidates who did amazingly well at presenting a positive platform (Fleming, Horgan come to mind), but James failed;

Is there a link to these positive politics episodes?

Actually, that was Dosanjh.

Wilfred Laurier
... the Faithful seem to forget that his performance led to his party getting only two seats

That was Dosanjh, not Clark. Dosanjh was already in the Liberal recruitment file in the 1990s.

True

But he was running in Clark's record.

Carole James was playing

Carole James was playing nice and that’s one big reason why she lost.
The urgency was missing.
Really, she needs to find her war cry.
She’s fighting for a lot of voiceless victims as well as our future.

It became a disgusting, illegal campaign.
You knew they were worried. When Jackard used “brave” to describe the members of his gang, I saw the white of their eyes…

No one should assume the premier will survive this term, no matter how many enablers he has paid.
That would be their first post-election strategy.
Ms. James will have to stop obliging the opposition, starting today.

Wilf and wayfarer

I notice once again that you guys were unable to find a single Socred or Liberal scandal in your list.

I would suggest finding a history of BC in your local library and having a read but I know your mind is impervious to the Socred/Liberal record so I won't bother.

Uh-huh

"I heard the Pilon comment (re: re-branding and cutting off of heads, etc...) buried deep in a CHEK TV story a couple days after the election.
...
and conspiracy theories about how the media is responsible for influencing an election one way or another."

Nope, not affected by what the media chooses to write at all.

Frank

In scanning this thread, I came across your statement that Dan Miller is an NDP Party member.

If this is so, it means that as an ex Premier and Party leader, he has privileged input into Party policy. If that is so, I'm burning my card.

It had to happen

ME2
"I'm burning my card."

Don't take too much comfort in it R/Man

ME2 will undoubtedly be back...

What I find pathetic

Is the constant cry for 'leadership'; or at least the suggestion that the NDP needs 'strong leadership'.

I'd sooner have a well informed electorate - the day that happens, Campbell will be gone.

Not much indication of that happening soon if certain Tyee commenters are indicative.

One lives in hope of course.
8-D

A number of hours ago I

A number of hours ago I mentioned a cartoon of James coming to the stage as the new premier of BC year 2025. I was incorrect , the cartoon really said Carol James new Premier of BC and the year was 2045. Sorry if I raised up anyones hopes of a early victory under that lady.Time to exit, stage left.

Yes Wilfred...

"But he was running in Clark's record" and from a historical and mor truthfull perspective and in comparison to the sell-out Campbell corporate guy that record is looking better all the time. Even ole' Harry Enchin thinks maybe his time has come.

Skywalker

Really, if you and your Fellow Faithful hate the Premier as much as you say, you need to find a way to in the immediate term be a forceful and effective opposition and in the long term find a way to get elected. As it stands, you are doing neither

"I'd sooner have a well informed electorate - the day that happens, Campbell will be gone."

Well, Garth, we'll leave that up to you. You have been so effective to date.

WilFRED

You show me once, just once, where I've said I hate the premier.

Please.

But don't knock yourself out trying - because I've never said I do.

That construction is yours my friend - not mine and it's time you got over it.

As for being effective, I think I'm doing just fine - it's the average citizen of British Columbia who aren't and who have been going backwards for the last 8 years.

Perhaps you hadn't noticed.

Things are in such a mess now and are well on the way to getting worse - the folks who pretend that everything is fine and dandy are the ones playing ostrich, ole buddy.

on farewells

And if, my friend, you'd have it end,
There's naught to hear or tell.
But need you try to black my eye
in wishing me farewell?

Though I admit an edged wit
In woe is warranted,
May I be frank?...such words as "_____"
Are better left unsaid.

(Dorothy Parker)

G West, no flies on you :-a

Ok Garth

"You show me once, just once, where I've said I hate the premier."

I will give you that one, Garth. Name calling, yes, open hate, no.

"Things are in such a mess now and are well on the way to getting worse."

Yes, the sky is falling and the pile of dead bodies on my doorstep is getting bigger every day. And I have never heard your ilk say that before, either, since I started voting in 1983. You should have been around in those days, Garth, what a Gong Show, thew way your forefathers played the Death and Destruction game was really laughable, and then they got slaughtered in the polls. Killed the credibility of a lot of them, too.

There are always ways to improve things, Garth. Nothing or no one (yourself excluded) is perfect or right all the time. What you need is a way to funnel your anger into ideas that will put what you want into reality. So far you are a complete failure. Just like your party since 2001. You are unable to learn for anyone else, because you have all the answers.

Garth

You must have just come back from sermon.

"ME2 will undoubtedly be back..."

That's better, always look on the bright side.

On BC Liberals and other Objectivists

I defer to those who have already become famous:

On Rivers and the sale of BC resources:

"Thinking to get at once all the gold the goose could give, he killed it, and opened it only to find - nothing." - Aesop

On Liberal Directorships in Corporations that freely take resources that once belonged to all people and all of nature in BC:

"A gold rush is what happens when a line of Chorus girls spot a man with a bank roll." - Mae West (Klondike Annie, 1936)

On the BC Liberal's setting policy and making decisions that create huge increases in wealth by BC's already very wealthy while at the same time increasing homelessness, child poverty and addictions in the BC population as a whole:

"Increase in material conforts, it may be generally laid down, does not in any way whatsoever conduce to moral growth." - Mahatma Gandhi

Always remember, sharing is Good.

Willy ol' buddy

The same rhetoric got Mr. Hitler elected -- and little did they know then that in 15 short years, all was kaput.
More recently, a certain Mr. Bush (aka Dubya) was voted in, and just 8 short years later, the US is kaput (in case you think this is a "temporary" market adjustment, well, the Income Tax Act was also a "temporary" measure - and we'll be "celebrating" it's 100th anniversary shortly).
And now we have Campbell..........do you have your proverbial "South American" refuge lined up?

War and Politics

Quote:

"The rhetoric may be stirring but there is no way in God's creation that anything going on in Canada is in any way as bad as the Nazi regime was. This regime had absolutely no regards for human rights or due process whatsoever, so you may be trying to sound high minded but to compare this province to the Hitler era does his victims a huge injustice. Such a comparison is flatly absurd."

I wasn't comparing it to the Nazi regime, I was highlighting the nowhere land of playing nice....and asking this question: Should the allies have "played nice" with tyranny? And if they had decided to "play nice" would the result have been a "nice" result. And for whom?

And for the record, we are well on our way to fascism in BC....our human and civil rights deteriorating with every piece of repressive legislation that is rammed through. There is a war...a very surreptitious one....and it has been declared on us ....on the human and constitutional rights of the citizenry of BC, on our public system and on our public resources.

Also, fascists never think they are fascists. Just like in wartime Germany, the message was that Germany was "the best place on earth". And it was, for some. But as history proves, not so much for many others.

The time question is paramount.

The privatization forces of war figured that out a long time ago. Ram legislation and the accompanying privatization of public resources through as quickly as possible before a response can be effectively organized.

I live near the IPP madness of Toba and Bute and I see the scurry of crew boats and the round-the-clock shifts that are being downplayed as minor stuff in what is really a massive power grab by foreign interests. "Someone" is in a VERY BIG hurry to rake in the profits. The hands on the IPP gold rush clock are spinning at lightning speed. Meanwhile Ms. James somehow thinks she has the leisure to dally about in another four year attempt at "outreach."

The thing is, our salmon, and our wildlife don't have that kind of reservoir of time. Neither do our rivers, our power, or our water under NAFTA's Chapter 11.

Neither do so many desperate people in BC.

True leadership would see that time is a big glaring factor in the battle against a government that is betraying the people of this province at warp speed.

Quote:

"In case you haven't noticed, lynn, to the south of the of the 4 million people of British Columbia is a country of 300 million in the midst of the biggest economic meltdown since 1929."

Yup, I noticed. And those are the very same economic policies that the Gordon Campbell government faithfully adheres to, enthusiastically promotes...and bows to....one piece of regressive legislation after another.

Fact Checking

"The same rhetoric got Mr. Hitler elected -- and little did they know then that in 15 short years, all was kaput."

Hitler's regime lasted 12 years and as a holder of a history degree, I cannot see any parallels with anything going on in Canada today that has anything in common with the Nazi party.

If you believe that "the same rhetoric" got Hitler elected, please provide supporting evidence. Otherwise, you are just spouting nonsense.

Wilfred Laurier: Liberal Voting Coalition in English Canada

Wilfred Laurier
But he was running in Clark's record.

That's not what Dosanjh said. Glen Clark left the Premier's office in August of 1999, the election was in May of 2001, nearly two years later. That was plenty of time for Dosanjh to put his own stamp on things, and to some degree he did. The Cabinet was re-shuffled, more than once. School district employees were legislated back to work, and there were supposed to be other changes in tone.

None of it amounted to anything, and some NDPers quit rather than face the electorate under a leader whose only real distinction was "I'm not Clark". They knew they'd have been better off sticking with Clark if they could, as he would have kept a solid 35% of the vote and held Gordon Campbell to something like 50 seats in the legislature.

You need to remember that hardcore Liberal agents and operatives were desperate to get rid of Clark permanently. As a working class Catholic, he threatened over time to eat into the most enduring element of the Liberal voting coalition in English Canada. With a psuedo-nym like Wilfred Laurier, you would know that better than anyone.

ME2: What's this all about? Hate Miller?

ME2
If this is so, it means that as an ex Premier and Party leader, he has privileged input into Party policy. If that is so, I'm burning my card

Do you hate Dan Miller for some reason? What reason?

Planting the seeds....watering daily....

Wilf, I know you posed the question to Rick W, in "fact checking" above,

But.....

What about these?

All defining factors of fascism....

And all blooming profusely,

All around us,

Here

On The Best Place On Earth....

That is... if you make it out of the airport alive:

Controlled Mass Media.

Corporate Power is Protected.

Labour Power is Suppressed.

Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights.

Obsession with Crime and Punishment.

Obsession with National Security.

Rampant Cronyism and Corruption.

And then there's.... PAB....Propaganda Assignment Bureau

PAB....Propaganda Assignment Bureau

lynn, that's about right. I don't think it's true overall that the BC Liberals are outright neo-Nazis, but you do have quite a list of symptoms there, and it's hard to dispute any one of them.

Whenever I think about the silly and embarassing "Best Place on Earth" adverts, I find myself thinking of previous BC Govt propaganda efforts, such as the Twenty Great Years film which became a joke of sorts in WAC Bennett's last years in office. Or the stupid Fred Latrimoule commercials that ran for Bill Bennett in the winter of 1982/93, ... yes, the same Fred who years later provided a counter on which to mix the ill-fated Premier-sized martinis.

There seems to be a continuing tradition here of rank amateurism in terms of producing adverts, the ostensible purpose of which is tourism promotion and retention, a perfectly sensible goal.

Compare these to the California State spots featuring Maria Shriver and Governor Arnold chwarzenegger and there is no comparison. The California spots are genuinely entertaining and breezy, and the appearance of the Governor at the end, while perhaps a bit of incumbent's advantage, plays more on Schwarzenegger's own reputation to build up that of California than the other way around.

Can you imagine a BC Govt spot featuring our Premier inviting people to B.C. for a holiday? What would he be wearing? What would he be doing?

Perhaps we should ask people like Wilfred, "realistic"man and of course Luke Sidewinder if they are employees of the PAB?

Only Themselves to Blame

While there is the usual temptation to blame the big, bad corporate media for the NDP’s election woes, the fact is that the NDP ran a lackluster campaign that did not resonate at all with voters.

The primary concern of voters in the recent election was the economy. There were numerous issues related to the economy in which the NDP could have presented an alternative vision for and attacked the Liberals over. As examples, there were the massive cost overruns on the Vancouver Trade and Convention Center. There is plenty of information out there that public private partnerships, a favorite of the Liberals, cost taxpayers considerably more money than if public infrastructure projects were carried out in the traditional way by simply hiring a contractor.

The NDP ran an old-style socialist campaign to simply attack, attack and attack. There was very little put forward showing its vision of the future. It’s approach in this election was a dismal failure.

While all of this cannot be blamed solely on Ms. James, she has now had essentially eight years to bring the party back to power. She is the leader and so sets the tone for the direction of the party. The NDP keeps a low-profile while the legislature is sitting, doing very little to effectively get its message out. The NDP approach under Ms. James has been too low-key and has not been at all effective. The NDP needs a strong, assertive leader who will hold the Liberals to account in the legislature. Ms. James should at least allow for a leadership review.

Are the commercial mass media fair and balanced?

[b]x4estworker[/i]
While there is the usual temptation to blame the big, bad corporate media for the NDP’s election woes, the fact is that the NDP ran a lackluster campaign that did not resonate at all with voters.

Are the commercial mass media fair and balanced in their coverage of provincial, and for that matter federal politics? What about the publicly owned CBC? Based on what I see on TV and in print and radio as well, for me the answer is no. It may sound sophisticated and hardnosed to say that's just whining and conspiracy theories, and no doubt political activists on the right have made similar claims for their part.

However, I see a pro-Liberal bias in the CBC and in the commercial media a bias that clearly favours the BC Liberals provincially. Federally, the private media are a bit more mixed in their treatment, except that the Federal NDP is excluded between elections, and during elections receives a treatment based on certain unfounded assumptions (eg financial ineptitude is a given, anti-Americanism is assumed as well as pandering to separatists, soft on crime and defence, etc.)

If a party is doing things that live observers and actual participants find interesting and exciting, but the material appearing on TV screens in voters' living rooms is lacklustre, what's going on?

Rod!

"...However, I see a pro-Liberal bias in the CBC ..."

I can't believe that! The CBC is thoroughly NDP! During the election campaign their radio 'political' panel was an ex-NDP Minister, an ex-Socred Minister that repeatedly said he's voting NDP and, for balance, a retired federal Reform MP!

Nobody there from the centre (Liberal).

R/M old man....

There were THREE people on the political panel. You missed the "liberal".

And Rafe has been on the panel far longer than his declaration that he was supporting the NDP. It was Campbell's inane policies that pushed him that way.

Get you facts staright, man! (or not -- you haven't much been to date)

The CBC is pro-Liberal

The CBC is a federal Crown Corporation, and that forms the basis of its political alignment. They are Liberals federally because they don't want to be privatized by the radicalized Conservatives, a not altogether irrational fear.

At the provincial level, they support the Campbell Liberals party by extension, politely overlooking the presence of religious right federal Conservative types in the provincial Liberal Cabinet and Caucus.

Furthermore, they don't want to do anything which would help the NDP provincially for fear that might help to re-energize the federal party, something they, like Liberal strategists, wish to avoid at all costs. Hence the never ending re-runs on CBC news and public affairs shows of the Liberal "vote strategic" meme.

Rod, you're wrong!!

While there are certainly some media outlets that are decidedly and blatantly pro liberal (like the CanWest newspapers), I do think that most of the media in B.C. are reasonably fair and balanced in their approach to politics in the province. I read the newspapers, Internet news and watch TV news every day. The media outlets generally try to be fair and balanced in their reporting.

Even the CanWest newspapers provided plenty of coverage for the NDP in the last election. Their biases were more subtle, such as the pro Liberal editorial by Virginia Greene, ex-Liberal candidate and head of the BC Business Council, on Election Day in the Vancouver Sun. She tried to make the argument that women voters should vote Liberal as they would be further ahead by doing so.

The reason that the federal NDP is not covered much in the media is that the federal party is essentially irrelevant, and caters only to the far left these days.

While the B.C. NDP may be doing things behind the scenes that are interesting and exciting, the trick is to get that out into the public spotlight by any way you can. That's what media relations folks are for. The NDP has a number of politically savvy media types around (e.g. Bill Tielman) and needs to use these folks to get its message out. But first, it has to have a message that resonates with the electorate and it doesn't have that now.

Wrong again

Never called him a name either WilFRED. I think you need to look to your own quiver for that kind of ammunition.

R/Man,

ME2 is fundamentally sound, most of the time, he'll be back because, in the end, there's no other place for decent folk to to at the moment than to the NDP.

When the wind changes I'll let you know.

And no anger either WilFRED

That too is your ammunition, not mind...I'm a fundamentally happy person, well satisfied with my own lot in life.

What troubles me are the slings and arrows aimed at my fellow citizens and my province by a government (and its selfish and self-absorbed supporters)which pretends to be democratic and is, quite to the contrary, the private realm of one man's selfishness and greed....

I'm reading an interesting book just now about business and the psychopathic personality - you should pick up a copy.

It's called, not surprisingly: 'Snakes in Suits - Wheb Psychopaths Go to Work' by Paul Babiak and Robert Hare.

erratum

title is:
'Snakes in Suits - When Psychopaths Go to Work' by Paul Babiak and Robert Hare.

Wouldn't want to confuse you WilF

Lynn

From Willy's "response":

You see Lynn, people like Willy simply DON'T KNOW what they support. They cannot project. And they become defensive, choosing to dwell on semantics, such as insisting it was 12 years, and not 15. He doesn't see (because he didn't mention it at all) that this brings the Hitler thing even MORE in line with recent regimes. And then they go on about the DEGREE of autocracy, as though that somehow makes a difference to the ESSENCE of the authoritarianism displayed.

Sore Winner

The only thing worse than the sore loser is a sore winner. Here is a little tid-bit that may help you see the light at the end of the tunnel. Some of you may have seen it before but I think it bears repeating, esp. when some don't learn.

Spare us from the Gullible Voter

In the '60s we had already benefited for many years in this wonderful province. There was a story going around then which I will attempt to bring up to date or even a few years into the future - let's say 2015: (by this time "global Warming" has produced some dastardly cold winters in B.C.)
Hunter: "This time last year I shot a moose and it almost killed me."
Wannabe hunter: "The Moose?"
H: "No, the weather. It was up on the Chilcotin Plateau and while I gutted and cleaned the carcass a blizzard blew in and the temperature dropped like a stone. Couldn't see your hand in front of your face even if it was getting frostbite. Two miles to the pickup and the ATV wouldn't start.”
W: "So what did ya do?"
H: "The moose was laying there and still warm so I opened up the rib cage and crawled inside. Actually fell asleep for a few hours. When I woke up the blizzard was over but the moose was frozen solid. There was no way I could force the ribcage enough to get out."
W: "Then how did you get out?"
H: "I did some thinkin' and when I got to the memory of voting for the Campbell Liberals in 2009 I felt so small I crawled out the hole under the tail."

Really?

"Never called him a name either WilFRED. I think you need to look to your own quiver for that kind of ammunition."

How about the "CEO" or "King Gordo," Garth?

Anyway, your blather is useless. It has accomplished absolutely nothing. You are completely wasting your time as the pit bull of the Tyee. I feel sorry for you, Garth.

RickW

As I said:

"http://podcast.cbc.ca/mp3/bcearlyedition_20090511_15470.mp3"

Gordon Campbell

When he set up his first cabinet sent a message out through Martyn Brown that ministers were not to appoint their own deputies; that deputies, in fact, would be appointed by the premier through his representative Martyn Brown.

I'm surprised someone of your knowledgeable stature wasn't aware of these details - in fact they are widely known among people who are 'aware'.

Using those terms does not constitute calling Gordon Campbell names WilF, those are merely descriptive adjectives.

Those aren't names, Wilfred, they are simple descriptions of reality.

The one who calls people names, huffs and puffs with outrage and anger isn't me WifFRED. In fact, quite the contrary.

Need I remind you:

"anger"; the "faithful"; "pitbull(sic)"; "blather"; "gong show"; "Garth"; "death and destruction"....need I continue or are you sufficiently embarrassed by your own record with the short list?

If not, you must know I have a much longer indictment for you.

One thing I know for sure, my colleagues and I aren't the slightest concerned about you.

x4estworker: I heard these Liberal talking points before

x4estworker
... I do think that most of the media in B.C. are reasonably fair and balanced in their approach to politics in the province. ...

I don't. From what I have seen there is a pro-Liberal bias at the CBC and provincially a pro-Liberal bias in the private media, and its pretty serious.

Even the CanWest newspapers provided plenty of coverage for the NDP in the last election. ...

According to Stephen Hume of the Vancouver Sun, in a special column in that very newspaper, the CanWest papers were fair and balanced in their coverage. The only problem is that I am old enough to remember the columns Stephen's Dad Jim Hume used to write, basically denouncing Barrett's Govt as total incompetents and utter political sleazeballs. Jim, you see, had no more use for the NDP or labour than Mark or Stephen do today.

The reason that the federal NDP is not covered much in the media is that the federal party is essentially irrelevant, and caters only to the far left these days.

LOL. I have heard this Liberal talking point before. There is no substance to it whatsoever, as you well know. The truth is that the NDP got two thirds as many votes as the Liberals, so there is no factual reason, based in election results, for the scant coverage the Federal Caucus receives. 905-belt Liberal MP Ruby Dhalla's nanny abuse scandal receives more coverage than most actions by the NDP caucus, such as their tasks forces on recovery and recession, or the recent meeting with Mike McCracken, Don Drummond and other economic experts.

While the B.C. NDP may be doing things behind the scenes that are interesting and exciting, the trick is to get that out into the public spotlight by any way you can. That's what media relations folks are for. ...

I don't care who a party's media relations people are, or how many there are, if the press is determined not to cover something, or to cover it in a certain, pre-specified manner, nothing else is going to matter.

Who do you think controls what goes on the nightly TV news, or on the front page? Do you think it's people working for political parties, or executives and managers in the media industry?

fair coverage

Rod, you make many interesting points. The big point is, if your are not with the BC Lib's then you get cut out of unbiased and fair coverage.

Re Dan Miller

My dislike of Dan Miller is deep-seated and of long-standing.

It was validated when as Minister of Forests he was quoted as having an extreme dislike of envionmentalists. This was at a time when Harcourt's Forest Pactices Code - a vieionary experiment well on the way to having the bugs worked out of it - was in force.

However, under Clark's gov't the NDP - IWA - COFI cabal was once again put in charge of forest policy, and the attitude towards the FPC became one of benign neglect, since outright opposition to the publicly popular Code was out of the question.

Today Miller is point man for Csmpbell's drive to develop Oil and Gas in BC's North - at any cost, as witnessed by support for Coal-bed Methane. That to me is consistent with Miller's environmental perspective.

The NDP badly needs to have a strong and well-enunciated set of environmental policies. That it doesn't now has been ascribed by many on this site to the presence of too many hide-bound good ol boys in its policy sessions.

With the likes of Miller directing NDP enviro policy, why should I, who calls himself an enviro, stick around to see myself knee-capped? I might as well join the Liberals or play pretend along with the Greens.

Well Said VivianLea!.... And a prediction

Your ISUMA comment once again shows the depth and breadth of thinking that can be found here.

Now for my prediction:

Based on the s-called report card by the "privatize everything no matter what" and "don't let the facts get in the way of my theories" special interest charity called the Fraser Institute. Our health care system needs reforming (read: privatizing).

Given HRH Campbell's track record, and especially given that he does not really care what happens to the provincial Libs as he will be moving on to well feathered nests, I predict that he will go after our health care system in a big and toxic way.

Personally, I have lived in Europe under the two-tier and lived in the US under their system. No Thanks to either of those.

By the way, my other prediction:

Suzuki and Berman will somehow find themselves involved in this issue.

wow so I got censored cz I

wow so I got censored cz I pointed out James acts like a sexist jerk for banning people like me from running in say Fairview where I live.

unbelievable hypocrisy and a total lack of wanting to see reality for what it is.

ME2: Thanks for the explanation

ME2
However, under Clark's gov't the NDP - IWA - COFI cabal was once again put in charge of forest policy, and the attitude towards the FPC became one of benign neglect, since outright opposition to the publicly popular Code was out of the question.

Thanks for an explanation. I agree that Miller puts much more emphasis on industrial development and jobs and less on environmental protection. His support for offshore oil and gas exploration and for the privatization of BC Rail are stands I don't agree with.

Nor do I think he's accomplished anything useful by agreeing to sit on Premier Gordon M. Campbell's productivity panel, since that group issues valueless reports that contain no productivity data, just opinions from business leaders on what has to give to get the industry moving.

However, the paragraph I excerpted is one I do take issue with. FRBC was always a "stakeholder" agency, controlled by business and labour in terms of its operations. That's how Harcourt and Petter designed it, and that's how it stayed under Clark. That was a mistake, but it didn't originate with Clark and Miller, or at least with them alone. Please remember that Mike Harcourt was a golfing partner of Jack Munro and Keith Bennett.

MichaelT

How did it work? Did you have to give some DNA and have it measured for hormones, or were you just asked to drop your pants?

censored? Michael T

What are you talking about?

None of your posts have been censored.

Click the all comments tab at the bottom of the story and you'll see they're all still there - complete and erroneous as ever.
8-{)

Rod Smelser.

Sorry to mix things up with the alphabet soup, Rod.

With FPC, I was referring to the Forest Practices Code, not Forest Resorces BC - FRBC.

I'm sad to learn that Harcourt was a golfing buddy of the virulently anti-environment Jack Munro. I don't know what to make of that.

I screwed up in my name

I screwed up in my name search sorry

holy Batman...again

Thanks, Dr Alexander. A smiley after an owie is a good thing.

C=:{}

ME2: Keith Bennett

ME2
I'm sad to learn that Harcourt was a golfing buddy of the virulently anti-environment Jack Munro. I don't know what to make of that.

He was also close to Keith Bennett, from the company side. I wonder if Keith Bennett was, in the opinion of BC environmentalists, less anti-environment than Jack Munro?

Angry?

Angery about being let down by the sales department at your local political office?

We were let down by the failure of the STV. We could have a more diverse political scene and more toe-to-toe action. There is no differentiation, if there was some James stuck to the I-Hate-Gord script and missed letting us know.
Republican vs Democrat
Pepsi versus Coke.
Who cares?
The system is failing the voter and James is just willing to milk it for all she can. Few wouldn't.
I think this article is about how James chose personal income over the greater good. It is not about politics it is about greed. Or it is all about politics and it is not about the greater good.
James missed an opportunity to give the BC voter something to believe in, she lacks the motivation. That some people take this as an excuse to hurl partisan insults is why we take this bait all the time. We are not that bright collectively. Too bad for us, more FPTP will ensure this level of tribal discourse is not transcended. We should all meet in a park and throw hot lattes at eachother.

Rod Smelser

I have no opinion on Andrew Petter, and the name Keith Bennet rings no bells with me.

However, by that time I was supremely PO'd with both politics and the enviro movement, opinions which I've had no reason to change in the interim.

Carole James

There is only one reason why she should run again and that would be everyone else in the party has worse prospects. If this is the case then there is no real party left just people as narrow minded as Campbell.

You can bet if the party lets her run again they will loose, the province will loose, the environment will loose, the poor will loose, etc. Get serious there is too much at stake having her run again is incredibly irresponsible and just plain naive. If she was going to win she would have done so by now.

Reply to Rod Smelser

The NDP always seems to find someone to blame when it loses an election. The favourite scapegoat is the big bad media.

The NDP won in 1991 and 1996 because it had a good platform and people didn't trust Campbell. Campbell also made some big mistakes in the 1996 election.

Harcourt in particular was a centrist who promised balanced budgets and good economic management. He didn't scare people as a "tax and spend" socialist. Good economic management is a subject that most NDPers don't want to deal with, but it is an essential if they want to get elected.

The NDP campaign was abysmal. There was vitually no mention of economics. There was an almost exclusive focus on issues that appealed to few people.

Mike Harcourt took the fall in 1994 or 1995 for a scandal that was not of his making. He understood accountability. Carol James should do the same thing now. She is the leader of the party and she should be accountable for this very poor campaign.

R/M old man....

"http://podcast.cbc.ca/mp3/bcearlyedition_20090511_15470.mp3"

Seems you choose not to respond correctly. Rafe was with the Early Edition's "political panel" far longer than his anti-Liberal declaration.

If anything, with Rafe as a Socred representative (many of which morphed into "liberals"), it would be more accurate to say that the panel was biased against the NDP. That Rafe sided with the latter shows the ignominious depths of depravity his former colleagues have sunk to.
Got anything else to throw in?

rickw

Seems you choose to not see correctly. Rafe declared his intention to vote NDP ten months back! Moe Sihota is an ex-NDP Minister, media-savvy spinmeister and these two constitute two thirds of the panel, with the last, for contrast and to show the alternative, an extreme right-winger from the defunct Reform Party.

This you say was a panel biased AGAINST the NDP.

Okay, I get it.

Hardly

The CBC Radio Political panel's members have been doing that schtick for years. To suggest the CBC is biased for anyone 'but' the Campbell clique is nonsense.

Mair announced he'd support the NDP in November - not ten months ago. My recollection he was an avowed Green voter prior to that.

Erin Airton (or whatever her name is now) is the Rabid Right Winger on the Panel by the way.

The Political panel on Victoria CBC numbers Clark Roberts (former legal Counsel of the BC Liberals), Bob Plecas and Elizabeth Cull.

You don't have a point r/man; besides, the Puffmaster is a 'secret' BC Liberal supporter too - or hadn't you noticed that he never pitches anything but softballs at folks like his close personal friends in Cabinet?

All those wrongs cannot make a right

Your recollections are not to be trusted.

Another wrong is that Val Meredith was on the panel at least once and if you'd take the trouble to click on the link I provided you can hear her speak just one day before the election!

"I'll Vote NDP in May
By Rafe Mair
The Tyee Published: August 4, 2008"

DavidN

You didn't vote for Carole and have declared you are not an NDP supporter. So why would the NDP care if you think she should be gone?

xforestworker

"The NDP always seems to find someone to blame when it loses an election. The favourite scapegoat is the big bad media."

Yes, after reading bloggers apparently I'm the only person in BC that is influenced by what I read, watch and listen to. All the rest of you were born so wise that new information isn't required.

"Harcourt in particular was a centrist who promised balanced budgets and good economic management."

He only won because he ran against the Socred legacy of Vander Zalm. If he had run in 1996 against Campbell he would have lost. Besides, James did not promise "socialism", instead she reached out to business constantly promising to be a good little pro-business manager but they didn't buy it. Not that they ever have from any NDP politician.

"Good economic management is a subject that most NDPers don't want to deal with, but it is an essential if they want to get elected."

Its the Right that doesn't want to have a real factual discussion about "economic management". The NDP after all has a proven track record as good economic managers. If you haven't heard about the NDP record in BC, Sask and Manitoba then perhaps its because your "neutral" media hasn't told you about it.

"The NDP campaign was abysmal. There was vitually no mention of economics. There was an almost exclusive focus on issues that appealed to few people."

And yet, according to Mustel, the NDP closed a 17% gap to just 4% in just over a month. Sounds like it must have been one of the greatest campaigns in the history of western civilization.

"Carol James should do the same thing now. She is the leader of the party and she should be accountable for this very poor campaign."

I wonder how many called for Doer to resign after losing not two (like James), but three elections?

Frank

x4estworker: good points all BTW.
Hi Frank-good morning...
Fair Q, I have voted for NDP a few times, in fact if you count federal elections I have voted for almost everybody. Rhinos once (it was a long time ago). I vote for the person and that leader's specific philosophies. I have made a few regretable choices, but stick with my tribe-less style.
I voted for Harcourt but did not vote for James so I guess the fact that I own a business and employ people shines through. James needs to appeal to me to get my vote if she wants to win, I am that 5% she is missing. She cannot exist on what I call the NDP Faithful, and I admit I don't use that in a flattering way but every party has a base that doesn't think about their choice, they just vote for the tribe. The Cons certainly have their Faithful, as do Libs etc. It is like a club or a religion.

If she doesn't appeal to me who will go her way, the Christian Democrats or whatever they are called? I honestly think the Greens, if they can become professional, dress and speak well, can get be better at being NDP than the NDP.
BTW
I argue that Harcourt won on his exemplary environmental vision and his ability to manage relationships, not on a weak opposition. Gosh, even when the NDP win they blame it on the other guys! Then they threw him under the bus.

Frank you may be stuck on Right vs Left, that is so yesterday. It is an illusion designed to manipulate. I agree that the NDP had a good month, but they had a weak defense from the Libs, who played the trap perfectly. It was boring but it was a win, they played it right by making it all about Campbell and not about issues.
How can that not be a profound failure on James' part, and what is the problem with trying to improve the party? I would prefer they were a rational alternative.

Catch you later. D

She was there simply because

Meredith was there because Airton was off getting married and changing her name to whatever it is now...You really don't listen to CBC 690 very much do you realisticman?

Airton, Mair and Sihota have been the bunch for 'years'; now and then they've pulled in Gordon Wilson and a few other pinch hitters.

The 'panel' is as I described it - it airs around 7:45 am every Monday morning if you cared to take the trouble to listen.

CBC Victoria's panel (90.5 FM) airs on Friday mornings.

Those are the FACTS my friend and you clearly don't know them.

As for the ten months, I'll give you that, not that is has any relevance to this discussion.

Furthermore

I'd be a lot more interested in your reaction to Jeff Rubin's little book.

Its title has the ring of something I've been saying (and you've been attempting to avoid) on these pages for years R'man.

You can't have missed it, can you?

WHY YOUR WORLD IS ABOUT TO GET A WHOLE LOT SMALLER: Oil and the End of Globalization...

I can't think but that maybe Rubin has been reading Tyee comment threads, eh?

West

"As for the ten months, I'll give you that, not that is has any relevance to this discussion."

Au contraire, it has everything to do with Ron's suggestion here that The CBC is pro-Liberal and the general discussion above regarding the role the press played in the election.

I pointed out the FACTS my friend and you clearly don't know them.

What is not relevant to this discussion is your diversion regarding Jeff Rubin's book!

I will grant you this though, Jeff's predictions are good news for the Canadian oil sands and he went to Calgary to tell them that oil was going to skyrocket. It makes the oil there viable. It also probably means that nuclear is too viable and we may well soon see nuclear powered ocean going freighters.

DavidN

"She cannot exist on what I call the NDP Faithful"

She can and has. What she can't exist on is the 5% of the vote that she would get if she were to break away from her base. Politics 101, if your base doesn't vote for you may as well pack your tent.

"The Cons certainly have their Faithful, as do Libs etc. It is like a club or a religion."

Actually, its about philosophy and the way you see the world.

But let's say it is religion as you call it, what makes more sense, for someone to look at different churches and then join the one that best matches their personal beliefs or someone who goes through a "hallejuah" moment every year and joins a different church? To me, the former makes more sense and the latter seems kinda flaky.

"I honestly think the Greens, if they can become professional, dress and speak well, can get be better at being NDP than the NDP."

First, the Greens have been at it for 30 years and haven't caught fire. In its first 30 years the NDP had not only won seats but had formed provincial governments. Also, many Greens will say the NDP doesn't appeal to them but fail to see why the Green Party doesn't appeal to Dippers.

"BTW I argue that Harcourt won on his exemplary environmental vision and his ability to manage relationships, not on a weak opposition."

No, it was because the Socreds took 24% of the vote. Harcourt got 2% less of the popular vote than James. The fact is, James is more popular than Harcourt ever was.

"Frank you may be stuck on Right vs Left, that is so yesterday."

The problems and issues haven't changed so why would anything else?

"I agree that the NDP had a good month, but they had a weak defense from the Libs, who played the trap perfectly. It was boring but it was a win, they played it right by making it all about Campbell and not about issues."

It had nothing to do with the Liberal campaign. All they had to do was not self-destruct because as we see from Liberal supporters on this very forum, they can do no wrong in their eyes. The NDP has to be perfect to have a chance, the Libs just have to show up.

"How can that not be a profound failure on James' part, and what is the problem with trying to improve the party?"

Your only suggestion for improving the party has been dumping the leader.

No you didn't

You didn't even know the 'name' of the regular right wing whack job on the panel - remember?

Mind you, of all the intellectually challenged members of the Campbell Crime Family available as spokesmouthpieces, utilizing Val Meredith has to say something profound about the paucity of available talent for the Liberals.

The fact that someone who was as conservative and fundamentally right wing as Rafe Mair was to have come around to the view that the only intelligent and sensible choice in this election was the NDP is pretty interesting.

You need to actually listen to the CBC to understand its biases and appreciate the softness of the puffmaster's touch.

Digging up a link to a podcast just won't cut it....

As for Jeff Rubin

Nice to see you're on a first name basis with him too...

If you wish to ignore the long-standing claim I've made that your favourite hobby horse, globalization, is a profound failure - so be it.

But to suggest that the debate hasn't been going on for a long time here at Tyee between you and me would indicate that you're suffering from some advanced form of senile dementia.

You know the point I was making - and, as ususal when anything comes up that's inconvenient, you prefer to change the subject, let it slide, or hide.

Anyway, I quite enjoyed the book - too bad you didn't.

Hi Frank

Good points.
I think dumping James is logical but I like winning.
Politics 101 says adapt not copy, union party are over. The loss of the resource base economy has left the NDP lost in the woods. I bet they lost some of their base to other parties because many couldn't tell what they stood for. It was either a poorly chosen change in ideals or a lie. The media calls it a move to the R for NDP to be centrist, which is what they call Liberals. Do they have a philosophy? If they do it changed to become Union Brand Lib-lite.

I have to agree numerically that James did well and maybe she can pull it off, your loyalty is noble. Maybe she learned, it is reactionary of me..like firing the coach. I am undecided on the Canucks BTW, but is she Luongo or Cloutier?

By playing the trap Campbell tried to win by one goal and he did. A loss is a loss. A history of losing is unappealing.

The NDP base overestimates the cohesion of Librals. Many have bailed for the Greens and NDP. Not too many years ago the Libs were nowhere, so they shifted from somewhere very recently.
I don't want James to remain so the Liberals will win, I want her to leave so we have a better choice than the Liberals who are playing fast and easy IMO with the ownership of our natural resources. Maybe I am Green...again...still? The wandering voter. That is what is pathetic about our politics is they move to capture public opinion, they bail on their philosophy and then what have you got other than team names?

Also, bad timing for James because recessions are bad times for change in govt and if economic times were hot she probably might have won. That should have been in her mind before she morphed 'Right'. You are right again, Campbell worked hard to retain control and not have an issue other than James hating him. That doesn't sell. She lacked the ability to talk issues, if she had any.

I hate to only agree, but you are right about the Greens also. No fire. Only in the last 5 years or so have they become un-flaky enough to consider as anything other than a protest vote. They need a style council, speaking lessons, cohesion and provincial leadership. I think May is brilliant but they still lack an ability to appeal to fiscal conservatives. That is key these days.
Later!

DavidN

I agree that the NDP should make some changes but your reference to the Canucks is very apt. Like the Canucks the NDP did better than expected but just like the Canucks the discussion should be why we lost and not a reflexive "blow up the team".

Also, the Canucks do not have a 50-50 chance of winning the Cup every year and neither do the NDP have a 50% chance of winning an election. There are more voters on the Right than on the Left in BC so the NDP starts at a considerable distance behind the major right-wing party.

What the NDP has to do is somehow overcome that but its also important to know that that is not an easy task and is certainly not just a matter of re-arranging a few chairs (such as saying Yes to the carbon tax).

"I bet they lost some of their base to other parties because many couldn't tell what they stood for."

I don't think they lost them to other parties but they certainly did lose some voters they had the support of previously. So why did those voters stay at home this time? This is the danger of following the advice of the Bill Good types and moving to the centre. Voters on the Left will just stay home as the NDP knows because in 2001 under the inept centrist Dosanjh NDP voters stayed home in droves.

Did the NDP make up for the votes lost on the Left by picking up more in the centre? It doesn't appear to have happened that way. Instead, a lot of previously Liberal supporters also simply stayed at home.

Many commentors here think James should go because she's too left-wing, even more think she should go because she's not left-wing enough. Its a delicate balancing act for any NDP politician and not something their right-wing counterpart has to deal with as the huge federal Conservative vote in this province is pretty much guaranteed to show up and support Campbell.

"your loyalty is noble"

Actually, I wasn't a big supporter of James. I've said before that she might not be from the same part of the party I am and I don't like her political instincts on some issues where she's jumped on a bandwagon too fast or flip-flopped immediately. But whether its just that I don't demand ideological purity or whether she's growing on me I've come to appreciate her more lately and think that although she might not be the best at doing what I would like the NDP to do she would make an excellent premier overall.

"Also, bad timing for James because recessions are bad times for change in govt and if economic times were hot she probably might have won."

Strange isn't it because "common wisdom" suggests the reverse should be true. Yet in Saskatchewan the NDP was dumped while the economy was booming and Campbell won re-election with the economy in the toilet.