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BC's Surge of Female Candidates

'We're behind Iraq and Afghanistan in elected women': NDP's McNabb.

By Colleen Kimmett, 21 Apr 2009, TheTyee.ca

Leslie McNabb

Leslie McNabb, New Dem running in Comox.

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British Columbia is paradoxical when it comes to gender equality in politics.

On one hand, we are a province of firsts: Rita Johnson (appointed premier in 1991) was the first woman in Canada to head a provincial government, Mary Ellen Smith (appointed to B.C. cabinet in 1921) was the first female cabinet minister in Canada, and in 1991, we had proportionally more women representatives (25 per cent) than any legislature in the country.

But since then, British Columbia's representation by women has been trending downwards -- unlike most jurisdictions which have held steady or increased, says Lynda Erickson, an SFU professor who specializes in Canadian politics.

At the annual convention in November, members passed a motion requiring the party to nominate women in 30 per cent of seats not currently held by the NDP. The decision generated some controversy at the time, but since then, the NDP have surpassed that goal; 42 of its 85 candidates are women.

As a result, this election will see more women running for office than any other election in B.C.'s history.

Although that's no guarantee there will be more females sitting in the 39th legislative assembly, here's a look at a few ridings that have the best shot of boosting the current number (16 of 77 members), and why some say it matters.

Comox Valley

Leslie McNabb is the NDP candidate here, one of the NDP's female-designated ridings. The odds of this long-time forestry worker winning the race increased with the death of Liberal incumbent Stan Hagen, a veteran politician and cabinet member, in January. Courtenay councillor Don McRae was nominated to run for the Liberals instead.

McNabb acknowledged that Hagen's death did "open up the field."

"It's hard to knock off an incumbent and it's harder to knock off an incumbent who was a minister," she says. "I don't think it will change the campaign or strategy much."

Although this will be McNabb's first campaign, she's no stranger to politics. Through the United Steelworkers, she has lobbied the provincial and federal governments on childcare, labour and safety issues, and has served as a mediator

"I have always been ready to stand up for myself," she says. "Going into the logging industry 30 years ago wasn't the easiest thing to do but the pay was really good. I tried being a daycare worker, a flight attendant, and those things paid really, really lousy money."

McNabb says that she wishes the NDP didn't have to set a quota for women candidates, but thinks it's necessary.

"When you look at the fact that we're behind Iraq and Afghanistan in terms of elected women, I think something has to change."

Port Moody-Coquitlam

This is another NDP female-designated riding, one that Liberal incumbent Iain Black won by a six point margin in 2005. This time, he's being challenged by Dipper Shannon Watkins, a 27-year-old former Port Moody councillor.

She says she does try to appeal to women when she is campaigning.

"It's interesting to see who comes to the door and who's making decisions in the house," she says. "Quite a few men come to the door and say 'Oh, I'll talk to my wife about it.'"

"In terms of women and equity, childcare is a big issue. I don't have children but there are a lot of candidates who do have young families and my hat goes off to them."

Port Moody-Coquitlam is a riding Black will have to fight hard to keep. According to Tyee analysis, newcomer Pat Zanon is another woman who could wrestle a seat away from Liberal Dave Hayer, in Surrey-Tynehead.

Will the NDP's strategy elect more women?

"Historically, if you look at the representation of women, it's not necessarily a great strategic way to go," says Paul Kershaw, a UBC professor who specializes in gender politics.

"I don't think any political party can campaign with a woman or a man in a particular riding as a strategy," he says.

However, Kershaw does think the possibility of elected a female premier could attract some women voters in the same way that Hillary Clinton's campaign did.

"The problem is that Carole James hasn't so far really marshaled all that much interest in her as a political leader," he adds.

"I think the most interesting question is, why don't women tend to run for office as regularly as men?"

One of the reasons, according to Kershaw, is the fact that women are less likely to take jobs that require them to travel and be away from their families, because they typically carry most of the burden of running a household.

Mary Polak, the Liberal incumbent in Langley, says the move to a set schedule and the elimination of night sittings in the leg made a big difference for female members.

"In the past, to have to be there until nine every night in the week meant that they couldn't travel home," she says. "Certainly, we are always on the lookout for more things to modernize what we do as a legislature."

Polak says that, in her experience, not enough women get themselves involved at the campaign level. "And women in business are far less likely to donate than men," she says.

'More women in caucus makes a difference'

Women also tend have less confidence in their skill set, says Jane Staschuck, director of women's programs at the B.C. Federation of Labour.

In March, she ran a campaign workshop in Harrison aimed at women involved in NDP or union campaigns. It included separate streams, one for beginners that addressed the basics, and one for those ready to take campaign management roles.

"Initially, I though there would be double the number of people in the basic stream, but it was surprisingly even," she said.

"Women are starting to really get why having more women in caucus makes a difference when it comes to talking about issues like pay equity and child care and quote unquote women's issues," she said.

"Those issues become the priority for the government when you have a broader range of women at the table, rather than just lobbying all the time."

Vancouver-Fairview is one riding where a female MLA is guaranteed (all three candidates are women), although it won't increase the proportion of women currently in the leg since the incumbent is the NDP's Jenn McGinn.

Newcomer Vanessa Violini, the Green candidate, says her reason for running was the party's strong support for BC-STV.

"With the system that we have now, what happens is it leaves a high percentage of voters without real representation. It also distorts the gender balance. In countries that have proportional representation, there are more women and minorities. I think it gives a more accurate representation," she said.

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Colleen Kimmett is a reporter for The Tyee and writes for others about sustainability, policy and politics

72 Comments:

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  • Wilf Day

    3 years ago

    Electing women

    What will BC-STV do for women?

    Take your example of Port Moody - Coquitlam. In the four Tri-Cities ridings we see, along with 27-year-old Shannon Watkins, incumbent NDP MLAs Mike Farnworth and Diane Thorne, plus another new candidate Heather McRitchie.

    No disrespect to Mike Farnworth, but he was first elected municipally in 1983. In the 2013 election, assuming he runs again, he'll be a 30-year veteran. I expect he'll have the nomination if he wants it, under any system. But if BC-STV is in place, voters will then have a choice of the old or the new.

    Would his name recognition ensure his election over a younger woman? Not if he runs one time too many, young voters decide to give youth a chance, and voters want to elect more women.

    In Ireland in 1997 Beverley Flynn, only 31, beat two male Fianna Fail incumbents to win one of two Fianna Fail seats in five-seat Mayo district. And that was in a political culture that doesn't vote for women. Remember, 90% of Canadian voters say they want to see more women elected. Give them a chance, and we'll see if they vote for them.

  • Tony Martinson

    3 years ago

    Oh my god it's not all about STV

    The STV zealots need to give it a rest. Goodgodawmighty there are things to talk about other than flipping STV.

  • alive

    3 years ago

    Enough already!

    Back in 1927 my mother was a "Redsock" in my native Denmark, that was the way females indicated their fight for equality.

    At that time they had every right to feel discriminated against!
    But time has changed our society to a point where gender equality is used to push females into jobs they may not be suited for (firefighters cops etc.)

    Maybe by now we need to start to look for a person best suited for a particular position, rather than which gender or minority needs representation?

    At the time when my mother participated in marches and demonstrations, they also had plenty of females who were eager to get involved in party politics, but today there is no such rush to have a go at it.

    Perhaps women are more realistic than men and can see it is a thankless job trying to work for any political party?

    One thing for sure is that we do not need anyone parachuted into a position regardless of their qualifications!

  • Wilfred Laurier

    3 years ago

    Great Numbers

    "but since then, the NDP have surpassed that goal; 42 of its 85 candidates are women."

    How many will be elected? I'd wager it will be single digits.

  • dgiVista.org

    3 years ago

    Justifying tweaking candidacies

    you know, all i know is that there has already been some good justification for the NDP's gender policies:

    http://politicsrespun.org/2009/04/some-justification-for-ndps-gender-policies/

  • Skywalker

    3 years ago

    I'm with alive on this

    Enough already. There has never been anything in place to prevent women from going into politics. Why they don't has nothing to do with any party's rules. Give it all a rest and just pick the best person for the job.

  • Chris H

    3 years ago

    Carbon tax hypocrites

    It seems strange that people think a slight tax on gasoline is going to significantly change anyone's driving habits. It's not the tax that effects peoples driving habits but the price! So, as the price of gas slipped these last few months, who felt the need to cut back on unnecessary driving trips?

    If the Campbell government were serious in this way, they would regulate gas and make the price of gasoline somewhere between $1.50 and $2.50 a liter. That would make people significantly change.

    But, they lack the principles to do what they say they believe in. Are we surprised? At least the NDP aren't pushing something, that in the end, is pretty useless.

  • Second Nation

    3 years ago

    "Female"?

    Why is it that media folk feel the need to use the word "female"?

    In this case is it to be inclusive of all the girls who are running as MLA candidates in addition to the women candidates?

    Or perhaps it is meant to be inclusive of non-human species (e.g. female badgers, female sea lions)?

  • crh

    3 years ago

    alive

    "One thing for sure is that we do not need anyone parachuted into a position regardless of their qualifications!"

    My first thought reading this was George Bush Jr.
    Sorry, but it happens all the time. The system still supports who has the most money and influence to everyones detriment. I for one think that more women in politics would offer more balanced governments. There is just to many white middle aged men running around parliaments.

  • nightbloom

    3 years ago

    "Why is it that media folk

    "Why is it that media folk feel the need to use the word "female"?"

    Because that's correct English.

    Saying "woman candidates" is incorrect (just as "man candidates" is incorrect).

    And - fyi - "Wimmyn candidates" is even more incorrecter...

  • Gabe

    3 years ago

    Tired of hearing it

    If there's a glass ceiling or other discriminatory policy at work, in a political party, or anywhere else, both women and men have two choices: figure out how to change the situation or move on.

    That's equality, ladies and gentlemen - the freedom to make the choice, regardless of gender.

    Apparently, the genders tend to choose differently. So what? It's an interesting statistic, not a problem to be remedied.

  • G West

    3 years ago

    skywalker

    I can't believe YOU wrote this:

    There has never been anything in place to prevent women from going into politics.

    Until 1918 women couldn't even vote and they weren't considered 'persons' until, what was it, 1929, when Emily Murphy and Nellie McClung took on the parliament and the courts and won.

    Even in the slave holding southern USA - prior to the Civil War - black men were considered to be 2 or 3 fifths of a 'person'.

  • reallife

    3 years ago

    More on the topic

    Anne Edwards' book "Seeking Balance: Conversations with BC Women in Politics" covers this topic in detail and is an excellent read. Anne is a former NDP MLA and BC Minister of Energy and Mines.

  • G West

    3 years ago

    In fact

    Women (perfectly acceptable usage by the way, nightbloom) didn't actually attain complete de jure equality under the law until the passage of the 1982 Constitution Act.

    de facto equality is taking a lot longer to achieve and the NDP (it was a party decision by the way - not Carole James's fiat - as would have been the case if the CEO had done it) move toward getting more women into important decision making positions for our 'representative' democracy is an important and often misunderstood baby step in the same direction as those pioneers I mentioned above.

  • Skywalker

    3 years ago

    G West

    I was referring to the bylaws and constitution of a political party. You're right about the franchise but that is another issue

  • G West

    3 years ago

    Skywalker

    Thanks for the clarification - I stand by my remarks above though.

    I think representative democracy needs to be, at least roughly, 'representative' and the idea of finding ways to get more women and minorities into positions of decision-making power is vitally important.

    When you consider the positive role played by people like Dave Barrett and Rosemary Brown or Emery Barnes, to mention just three minority folks from the Party's past in this province I think you may understand where I'm coming from.

    I just wish more people would try to look at the 'quality' of the folks who've gotten these positions - (say the non-entities in the CEO's cabinet for example - a case where Jessica McDonald has more influence than any 10 cabinet ministers) - I think you might see why I think the 'idea' that winning an election proves absolutely nothing in the current system and certainly doesn't ensure any kind of MERIT.

    Cheers - hope you'll at least think about what I've said.

  • Skywalker

    3 years ago

    G West

    But making a person a candidate only because of gender does nothing to ensure that a decision is based on merit. When the rules in the selection don't discriminate then a directive from the top to make selections based on any criteria be it age, gender, ethnicity etc. is wrong. I've said that before and it stands. It is not needed and probably does more harm than good.

  • G West

    3 years ago

    That's where I disagree

    just because one says that 30 % of x number of candidates must not be male doesn't mean that the female candidates from amongst which those nominated are chosen will not be of sufficient merit for the job.

    The idea of representative democracy must mean more than that - all men certainly doesn't work and neither would all women but the idea that some fairly proportional mix of genders and ethnicity would NOT be a better approximation of the character of a particular society seems to me to be pretty much self-evident.

    It certainly doesn't do any harm and, for the record, my experience in the professional world has always been that when I find a man and a woman sharing a similar position that the woman is, at least 80% of the time, better at her job than the man..

    The selections are made, I'd further assert, on the basis of a vote (from a pool of candidates selected only partly because of their gender or ethnicity)- not on the basis of any other consideration - that's why we have the current thoughtless bunch in power - remember.

    Furthermore, the fact that some groups have been left out of the mix is the 'real' problem the party is trying to address - I just don't think there's any other way to do it and my female friends who constantly come up against a glass ceiling in their academic and professional lives have convinced me that this is important and necessary.

    Sorry we can't agree - but there you go.

  • Wayne Smith

    3 years ago

    Change the system

    The problem for women is not getting elected, it's getting nominated in winnable ridings. Winner-take-all voting provides strong disincentives to nominating anybody who is "different", including women and any kind of minorities.

    When parties have to run a slate of candidates in a multi-member riding, the incentives are different - the strategy is now "something for everyone".

    Parties talk a good game about bringing in more women, but nothing ever changes. If you want to change the behaviour, you have to change the system.

    Vote for BC-STV on May 12!

  • G West

    3 years ago

    Wayne

    Yep! but considering that STV almost certainly won't pass the 60 % threshold, the NDP's method is at least an attempt to address the problem.

    I'll vote yes on STV - but not because I like it, nor because of the junkies from the CA who spend all their time flogging it - simly because it's better than FPP.

    The sad part of this is that, had a different approach been taken (a constituent assembly and not a hot-house group of self-promoting 'volunteers') we might already have realized an alternative to replace the current mess.

  • Skywalker

    3 years ago

    Well G West...

    ...my experience is that there are just as many incompetent women in any field as men. That is a kind of equality as well. What you advocate would demand you designate 50% of the seats specifically to women only. That would open up another discussion. We'll agree to disagree

  • PatrickMcEvoyHalston

    3 years ago

    NDP does seem as if it's the

    NDP does seem as if it's the old timer's leftist party. Boring.

  • Dan the socialist

    3 years ago

    The riding association

    The riding association members should pick the candidate they want to run and not by affirmative action.

    There are slightly more females than males in BC and Canada and if anyone wants to run regardless of gender or sex should be able to, quota's like Ms. James has done is not right and she will pay for it next month.

    Actually Ms. James has caused rifts within the party over this and I will be glad there will be a new leader before the year is up.

  • Skywalker

    3 years ago

    Patrick McEvoy

    You mean like the Liberals and Conservatives. Most of the Greens I know are old. What was your point?

    If You are suggesting that setting a quota on how many "men or women need apply" is new age stuff then I am chuckling. Equal opportunity means just that. There is no guarantee, nor should there be one.

  • PatrickMcEvoyHalston

    3 years ago

    My point is that the NDP

    My point is that the NDP seems like your grandfather's party. Green might be just as old, but its public face seems more vibran,t from what I've caught of it.

  • G West

    3 years ago

    But, Skywalker

    In virtually every field the decision makers are not women - they're men.

    And that's the problem the party's rule is designed to address.

    If men had done such a good job of representing the interests of women and children, I'd assert, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in now.

    But, as you put it, we'll leave it on the table and agree to disagree - I'm not sure which of your categories that puts me into Patrick, but I'll accept the reality that the left is (whether old fashioned or not) a lot more vital and progressive than the right.

    And, a lot more willing to debate issues like this than the BC Liberals or the federal Harperites are.

    That, I'll conclude, puts us (even when we disagree Skywalker) on the side of the angels, so to speak.

    C'est la vie!

  • Skywalker

    3 years ago

    Sure Patrick

    What good is vibrant when it is powerless? It only has one thing going for it - a Campbell concocted tax that ya'll think is the best thing since sliced bread because it drives the non- wealthy off the road. Some vibrancy. I'd rather spoil; my ballot.

  • Skywalker

    3 years ago

    G West

    You said, "If men had done such a good job of representing the interests of women and children, I'd assert, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in now." implying that if women had been in power things would be different. Really. How about Margaret Thatcher? I don't think there is much evidence to support your conclusions. Just because one group (men) has not done the job does not mean an woman would have done better. Carol Taylor would still be confined by her handlers even if she was leader. Greed, lying, arrogance, insensitivity and dishonesty are not qualities confined to men. Don't compare James to Campbell and expect that to prove anything about gender. There is always a Christy Clarke.

  • DPL

    3 years ago

    What I find insulting is

    What I find insulting is when Gordo or any other male politician shows up in the media no one ever wrties or talks about the suit, or the haircut. A woman candidate shows up and the comments about what she is wearing is usually the first item. I sometimes believe if a woman candidate showed up with her hair on fire, somebody would mention her pearls or her suit. The NDP set a quota to increase the women candidates so le'ts live with it. And lets not forget that two women stood their ground against overwhelming odds in the Legislature in 2002. Women hold up half the sky is a old saying. Lets see more of the in the Ledg.

  • VivianLea Doubt

    3 years ago

    friends

    You may think the NDP is boring,Patrick, and all would recognize the futility of trying to change your mind with words written here...
    But that's sort of my point, I'm sure you would never formulate a conclusion about the NDP based on what's written here...

  • G West

    3 years ago

    Niether Margaret Thatcher nor Carole Taylor

    Were Progressive nor Social Democrats.

    We are - we're different - and we bend over backwards to NOT be like Thatcher and Taylor - if we have to adopt their methods to gain power it isn't worth it.

    Keep on keeping on my friend - that's the difference between democratic socialists and the rest of these characters - we care and we try to make things better for everyone - not just for the cream at the top of the bowl.

    Cheers my friend - I heard Stephen Lewis speak at an event last Friday and I think he's as good an avatar as any - and he firmly believes that the single most important element in saving the world is giving more power and authority to women.

    And I agree with him wholeheartedly. And with you too DPL. Thanks.

  • reality_check

    3 years ago

    good women, bad women; good men, bad men ...

    That's equality for you!

    I hope though that these women don't try to draw parallels with the situation of women in Afghanistan. Speaking of which, I am opposed to the idea (even though I deplore the Talibans' actions), because forcing onto this religious freaks anything is counter-productive. But I digress!

    Many women make as much money as men for the equivalent position (especially young women), as described in many research (but, of course, not the types that women organizations would like to make public)!

    Even though, I am for some adjustment made to salary and experience when women raise children (although, men should be allowed the same benefit).

  • PatrickMcEvoyHalston

    3 years ago

    ViveanLea: I might

    ViveanLea: I might formulate my opinion of the NDP based on HOW things are said here. There's a lot of Green hate right now on this site. That deters. (Setting up Nader so that by all rights he should be prosecuted for war crimes, is, for example, very offensive to me.) If NDPers are capable of voicing real hate for other lefties, then I distrust how they will treat people, if they got in power. It is possible for me to imagine that if the NDP got in, they could actually turn out to be rightest. For some sense that this would not be the case, I attend, in part, to how they treat their "peers." If they make them seem as if their dissent is a crime against humanity, worthy of persecution, then I won't be all that keen on seeing them in power. Better, in my judgment, would be to see growth in a less punitive party (if that is in fact a fair way of characterizing the Greens), let more people encounter, be influenced by their voice.

    By the way, if Gore had gotten in, he would have gone into Iraq as readily as Bush did. Nader would never have, regardless of the populace's pleas for satisfaction through war.

    DPL: I've thought that all the NDPers, of either sex, shown on this site so far, dress very drably. This concerns because it suggests to me a suspicious attitude, a discomfort towards happiness/presumption. Progressives like me who like colour and open smiles, have right to worry about people like that--they go after us first.

  • RickW

    3 years ago

    Skywalker

    Margaret Thatcher wasn't really a woman.....

  • TarWill

    3 years ago

    Best Man for the Job

    It looks to me as if the NDP is forcing women to run even if they aren't the best candidates for the job!

    Whatever happened to running the best? This just goes to show how ignorant the NDP are! Since when did you have to be a certain colour or gender to be allowed to run in a particular riding?! Whatever happened to freedom of choice?!

    This is not democracy it is dictatorship!

    This is why I think it is great that we have independent candidates like David Marley and Vicki Hunntington running for the provincial legislature. They present a choice - a way for us to protest our rights being taken away by parties who dictate who can run where!

  • Rod Smelser

    3 years ago

    Globe and Mail Editorial

    Tony Martinson
    The STV zealots need to give it a rest. Goodgodawmighty there are things to talk about other than flipping STV.

    Well said, Tony. The Globe and Mail had a good editorial on this subject today, calling of a mix of FPTP and PR.

    Mixed PR is best
    From Tuesday's Globe and Mail
    April 21, 2009 at 12:00 AM EDT

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090420.weSTV21/BNStory/specialComment/

  • nightbloom

    3 years ago

    "Woman" is a noun, not an

    "Woman" is a noun, not an adjective. 'Female candidates' is correct.

    I am totally in favour of more women running for office. I'm also in favour of more female CEOs, just as I'm in favour of more men in the classrooms and hospitals (a persistent and un-addressed gender imbalance that accounts for why the current recession is being dubbed the "He-cession").

    However, I'm totally against quotas. That's the worst way to guarantee representative outcomes. You'll end up with an embarassing crop of mediocrities that do long-term damage to the cause.

    What is it about running for & holding public office that turns women off (as turning off lots of good men)?

  • Skywalker

    3 years ago

    Patrick McEvoy

    Your rationalization for your position is really scraping the bottom of the barrel. I don't know how you make the leap in logic that everyone who despises the Campbell thugs must be NDP or must dress drably. But carry on if that is your only method of getting Green support.

  • G West

    3 years ago

    Nah!

    Woman, or women is just fine Nightbloom.

    As for quotas, sometimes they're the only way and your argument on the basis of candidate quality fails on first principles.

    This is an election - people vote, for a wide variety of reasons - that have sweet bugger all to do with the 'quality' of the candidates - the current crop of mediocrities in power is the only evidence one needs to prove THAT point.

    Let's take, for example, Stephen Lewis, on the basis of his qualifications he'd never pass muster and didn't even graduate from university.

    As for woemn's status in this culture, yep, a lot of them are still employed at menial, minimum wage jobs...but even so, on average, women are paid from 68 - 75 per cent of what men get for doing the same work.

    As for what turns people off politics, the main reason is that it's a corrupt system - no one wants to be associated with such a racket unless they're a megalomaniac like Harper, Ignatieff or God forbid, Gordon Campbell - just like the military and the police - the whole structure is rotten to the core.

    Patrick - NDPers 'dress' drably?

    Really!

    Keep swinging bud, you'll give 'em a cold!

  • PatrickMcEvoyHalston

    3 years ago

    G West

    Give 'em a cold (for which there is no cure)?: Well, that could be a sniffle or two away from spreading the flu, which, though a bit mean, would be on the verge of being menacing, and no small inducement for sky-high self-assessment.

    re: "As for woemn's status in this culture, yep, a lot of them are still employed at menial, minimum wage jobs...but even so, on average, women are paid from 68 - 75 per cent of what men get for doing the same work."

    Even if true, we need a new refrain: the brain goes to sleep without some jolt of the new and unexpected.

  • G West

    3 years ago

    Disagree - and sorry about the spelling

    Democratic socialists don't give up - they just keep hammering away and working for change.

    Glitz and fancy clothes and slogans are flavour of the month stuff - here today and gone tomorrow. AQnd changed as often as though fancy clothes you seem to like.

    What worries me more than anything is the ennui of the young - most of them, as I've told my friend nightboom previously, are sullen and stunned as stale spit.

    That is a problem.

  • VivianLea Doubt

    3 years ago

    completely irrelevant

    On that note, I will simply announce to the world that I am wearing red pyjamas with white and pink reindeer on them that I got for Christmas. However, I don't actually celebrate Christmas, even though I love reindeer. Oh, I forgot to say I am a woman...and have been hard at work since 6 am lest I be accused of being lazy lying around in my pjs...
    And on another completely irrelevant note, I am really enjoying the smell of new-mown lawn, even though I don't really support lawns...
    I hope this isn't too subtle.

  • G West

    3 years ago

    Damn fine day here too VivianLea

    And those red pjs will set themselves off nicely against the green of the new-mown lawn....

  • Peter Dimitrov

    3 years ago

    Ennui- I think not!

    "ennui" I do not think so!..Rather, there is a culture of "disengagement" and "hopelessness" that cuts across many classes and ages of people, who rightly or wrongly see mainstream politics as a means to corruptly enrich and privilege the already privileged and powerful..Also, there is the 'informal' drug economy of BC within which many are engaged and benefit...so why participate in mainstream politics when there is minimum benefit to you, perceptively and actually, eh? just what do you get by voting, a Legislature whose power is consistently trumped by the Premier's office and his or her non-elected political appointees in myraid institutions from the courts, to Crown Corps, to WorkSafe BC, to University & College Boards, etc.etc. ...then there is hockey, entertainment, gambling, alcohol, drugs, video games, plus the demands of paying rent/food/tuition/cellphone, learning English as a second language, etc. Politics, is it even on the "to do" list of average folks...800,000 people not registered to vote in BC supplies insight into the considerable "culture of disengagement"...perhaps there are just better, more interesting, more creative, more urgent things to do with one's life?

  • G West

    3 years ago

    ennui

    apathy, langour, tedium....

    I think that description applies to a great many young folks Peter but, I won't quibble, disengagement and hopelessness works for me as well.

    Lets wait and see how many young people even take the trouble to vote this time round.

    Most of the people in Patrick's demographic that I'm acquainted with have given up on democracy and spend a lot of their time playing virtual reality games on the internet....

  • PatrickMcEvoyHalston

    3 years ago

    I'll engage with you on this

    I'll engage with you on this point at some other time, G West. In the meantime, please don't disparage youth--okay? BTW, I thought we had agreed we're the same age. I was getting comfortable with that idea.

  • G West

    3 years ago

    Oh, no sense of disparagment at all Patrick

    But, I hardly think I need mention that YOU started the bun-toss with the following:

    "I've thought that all the NDPers, of either sex, shown on this site so far, dress very drably. This concerns because it suggests to me a suspicious attitude, a discomfort towards happiness/presumption."

    I’ll respond in kind and take the ‘noble’ Shylock for my text:

    To bait fish withal: if it will feed nothing else, it will feed my revenge. He hath disgraced me, and hindered me half a million; laughed at my losses, mocked at my gains, scorned my nation, thwarted my bargains, cooled my friends, heated mine enemies; and what's his reason?

    I am a Jew. Hath not a Jew eyes? Hath not a Jew hands, organs,
    dimensions, senses, affections, passions? Fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, healed by the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer, as a Christian is? If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will
    resemble you in that. If a Jew wrong a Christian, what is his humility? Revenge. If a Christian wrong a Jew, what should his sufferance be by Christian example? Why, revenge. The villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction.

    There are, still, some distinct advantages to having had a classical education.

    And, furthermore, what I was observing - about a certain portion of the young - was, sadly, all too true.

  • PatrickMcEvoyHalston

    3 years ago

    "Lets wait and see how many

    "Lets wait and see how many young people EVEN TAKE THE TROUBLE to vote this time round" (emphasis mine).

    This is phrased disparagingly, G West. It suggets BLAMEWORTHY lazyness, disinterestedness, self-centeredness. Youth do not deserve to be set up this way.

  • VivianLea Doubt

    3 years ago

    Buntoss?

    "And earthly power doth then show likest God's
    When mercy seasons justice. Therefore, Jew,
    Though justice be thy plea, consider this,
    That, in the course of justice, none of us
    Should see salvation: we do pray for mercy;
    And that same prayer doth teach us all to render
    The deeds of mercy. I have spoke thus much
    To mitigate the justice of thy plea;
    Which if thou follow, this strict court of Venice
    Must needs give sentence 'gainst the merchant there."

    Of course, my education has been classist...

  • nightbloom

    3 years ago

    "Woman, or women is just

    "Woman, or women is just fine Nightbloom."

    You will recall that I was responding the a commenter (not you) who felt "female candidates" was someone offensive and anathema. It's merely correct english.

    That kind of prickly and matronizing policing of language was all the rage 15-20 years ago on campus, but please shut up already. If The Tyee wants to say "female candidates" that's the correct usage. Get over it. If you want to say "Woman Candidate" in your own article, then fine. Whatever. But it is just one instance of the syntactically incorrect ultra-p.c. po-mo patois of the white liberal professional classes, which the rest of us may indulge if we choose but are hardly obliged to conform ourselves to.

  • G West

    3 years ago

    I do recall

    And I don't think there is a single thing wrong with his/her objection. I find the use of the term 'female' and 'male' in such cases - and by law enforcement - to be little more than useless jargon. I'm not surprised, coming from a military background such as yours, that you'd find it quite acceptable though.

    Every time I read or hear a police report that refers to arresting a 'male' or a 'female' I cringe.

    However, I intend to reserve the right to comment and criticize you, or anyone else who posts in this public sphere and I have enough self-assurance not to resort to such tired, trite and throw-away usages as 'shut up already', 'po-mo' and 'white liberal'.

    You might want to look to your own powder my friend - I think it's wet. Or, to borrow another phrase - 'look who's talkin' dude.'

  • G West

    3 years ago

    You misapprehend me

    I think the ennui of the young - including their growing tendency not to take part in an exercise (voting) which, to them, seems irrelevant and pointless, is entirely understandable.

    The comment was not meant to apportion blame - I'll not be demanding any pound of flesh from the tyros if Campbell isn't ushered out of the cockpit once and for all on May 12.

    You'll note, additionally, that my final phrase evoked sadness.

    Vivianlea That's a good response - as is this one:

    The quality of mercy is not strain'd,
    It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
    Upon the place beneath; it is twice bless'd;

    It blesseth him that gives and him that takes: 'Tis mightiest in the mightiest; it becomes
    The throned monarch better than his crown ...
    It is an attribute to God himself;
    And earthly power doth then show likest god's
    When mercy seasons justice...
    consider this,
    That in the course of justice none of us
    Should see salvation: we do pray for mercy,
    And that same prayer doth teach us all to render
    The deeds of mercy.

  • Fii

    3 years ago

    ??

    "But time has changed our society to a point where gender equality is used to push females into jobs they may not be suited for (firefighters cops etc.)"

    I doubt any woman is "pushed" into being a cop, nevermind a firefighter!!! Any woman who wants to haul around a hose and run into burning buildings has chosen that career all on her own :)

  • BC Boy

    3 years ago

    Girl ridings and boy ridings

    Good grief, people, get a life!

    The NDP is making an error with this silly affirmative action. It's no guarantee that the winning female MLA will be a winner. There's been a few women who did run for politics and were just bloody awful at it. There were others that were very good at it. Same with boys.

    Support and elect based on the best person who can do the task of representing the local constituents. That has nothing to do with anatomy.

    What's next? Designating ridings as "girl ridings" and the others as "boy ridings"?

    Joy McPhail had a good line in describing the various Ministries in government.

    There were "girl Ministries" and "boy Ministries".

    and doesn't this affirmative action place
    equality in a bit of a paradox? Makes the NDP look a bit hypocritical?

  • G West

    3 years ago

    BC Boy

    Wrong..voting has sweet bugger all to do with picking the 'best' of anything - surely you don't think that do you?

    The people who opposed giving women the vote used exactly the same kinds of arguments you have.

    Think about it.

  • VivianLea Doubt

    3 years ago

    Of A Woman, Dead Young

    If she had been beautiful, even,
    Or wiser than women about her,
    Or had moved with a certain defiance;
    If she had sons at her sides,
    And she with her hands on their shoulders,
    Sons, to make troubled the Gods –
    But where was there wonder in her?
    What had she, better or eviler,
    Whose days were a pattering of peas
    From the pod to a bowl in her lap?

    That the pine tree is blasted by lightening,
    And the bowlder split raw from the mountain,
    And the river dried short in its rushing –
    That I can know, and be humble.
    But that They who have trodden the stars
    Should turn away from Their echoing highway
    To trample a daisy, unnoticed
    In a meadow of small, open flowers –
    Where is Their triumph in that?
    Where is Their pride, and Their vengeance?

    Dorothy Parker

  • nightbloom

    3 years ago

    "Every time I read or hear a

    "Every time I read or hear a police report that refers to arresting a 'male' or a 'female' I cringe."

    Sounds a little neurotic on your part. You can cringe if you want - but the issue is whether The Tyee (and everyone else) must C-O-N-F-O-R-M to incorrect language usage simply to satisfy the radical wing of the ultra-p.c. gender-warrior crowd.

    I wouldn't expect a police report to be anything other than accurate, neutral and clinical in its language usage. The moreso the better. It also allows information to be parsed more efficiently, for example when making age distinctions (i.e. the words man/woman become freighted with unhelpful baggage when they're applied to adolescents). News stories and police reports are similar in that they need to avoid these kinds of language problems while minimizing the need to launch into lengthy clarifying exposition.

  • G West

    3 years ago

    The beauty of the English Language

    Is its vigour and variability, the fact it changes and evolves and isn't stuck in the 17th century aspic with L’Académie française, is what makes the language great.

    I wouldn't have expected anything different from you, given your background and ethnicity.

    I suppose you boycott Le joual as well.

    'Man' and 'woman' are particularly useful words, as are boy and girl - using them isn't a problem for anyone but a pedant. Language is meant to transmit information, meaning and emotion - as for imparting information, I wish both the military and the police would dissolve their media relations departments and put the staff back to work doing something useful.

    They do nothing of the sort and are only interested in providing bureaucratic cover - every day here in British Columbia wer are reminded about what complete and utter liars the RCMP actually are.

    They should shut up entirely.

    The whole force should be dissolved.

  • VivianLea Doubt

    3 years ago

    trampling daisies

    "...perhaps there are just better, more interesting, more creative, more urgent things to do with one's life?" quoting Peter Dimitrov.

    Hmmm, I cannot think of anything more interesting, creative, or urgent than to imagine and participate in the remaking of the world. But there is an element that rings true in what Patrick is saying...if one rereads this thread these are the same arguments that are posited as "history"; i.e. the same arguments that have been put forward for decades. And eerily, stunningly, this thread follows those same arguments I have been following as I research a sociology paper...Where to go, G West?

  • Rod Smelser

    3 years ago

    Hold it G West - Time to update the data

    G West
    ...but even so, on average, women are paid from 68 - 75 per cent of what men get for doing the same work.

    Those would be the raw figures. When statistical corrections are made for education, experience, and other factors the gap is more like 10 to 15 percent.

    The key ingredient in lower overall job market positioning of women is occupational stratification, whether by personal choice or social assignment. Forty years ago there were less that 5% of women in skilled trades, and about the same in most professions. Today roughly half or more of new lawyers and doctors are women, but women in the trades are still less than 5%, just as men in nursing is still very low.

    Occupational stratification appears to be more persistent in middle income skilled occupations than in higher income, university educated professions. I really have no idea why.

    Overall, some of this discussion of BC NDP affirmative action policy reminds me of the darker moments in the Democratic Primary contest between Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton. An entire generation of women, as represented by NOW VP Olga Vives, were actually prepared to say that Obama was "the less qualified man" again stealing a job opportunity from a highly qualified woman. The description, of course, was completely false, but that didn't stop these people one bit.

    I once asked one of the brighter party insiders why on earth the NDP policy had chosen to create two classes of affirmative action candidates, women on the one hand, and all others (Aboriginals, non-whites, LGBT, disabled), and then to give a three to one priority on finding women? Do you know what he told me? With a perfectly straight face he said that some minorities such as South Asian Males were already over-represented in the BC Legislature compared to their share of the Census population. I found myself quite involuntarily gasping for air.

    BTW, G West, in case you haven't heard, Obama won.

  • G West

    3 years ago

    This morning, VivainLea

    I took a walk along the seaside, mindful of another poem - this one by Robert Frost.

    I'm sure you've read it:

    Nothing Gold Can Stay

    Nature's first green is gold,
    Her hardest hue to hold.
    Her early leaf's a flower;
    But only so an hour.
    Then leaf subsides to leaf.
    So Eden sank to grief,
    So dawn goes down to day.
    Nothing gold can stay.

    We do, as they say, the best we can!

  • VivianLea Doubt

    3 years ago

    pink jammies, this morning

    I have not read that, G West...or if I have, forgotten it. Thank you.

    For me, the language of poetry is so much more useful in dissecting complex problems than the language of the 'social sciences'...my bias.I believe Rod is correct in his data update, by the way.
    On to the next paper...

  • G West

    3 years ago

    Vivianlea, Rod....

    I'm always very suspicious of those 'corrections' - I have a good deal of experience in the hospitality industry and I know, for a fact, that management makes quite a few 'corrections' of their own to make certain that the books conform to employment standards regulations - especially with regard to hours of work. – and, in BC, the use of the ‘training wage’.

    I'll stick with the raw figures and remind you how many women there are in the 'service' sector who are working at three jobs in order to feed ONE family...That data isn't factored out in the adjusted statistics either...and the way records are kept, it never will be.

    Oh, and by the way, I'll also stand on the point that OBAMA is a special case...he may succeed with what he's trying to do, but he may also fail.

    Whatever it is, as a politician, he's the exception - not the rule.

    And you're right, there is no guarantee that women, as a matter of course, will not absorb the wrong lessons from their experience in the political fires. I’ve always thought of Hillary as more of a ‘clinton’ than a woman anyway – but that’s probably unfair.

    That said, the culture of corruption and payola so permeates the US system that comparisons and analogies are almost useless.

    Only our justice and police infrastructures approach the same levels of ignored incompetence and formalized reach-around.

    Even Service Canada has a better record for independent thinking and expression.

    Cheers.

    Glad you enjoyed the poem.

    Anyway, I'll stick with my belief that a more representative legislature will provide us with better government...

  • PatrickMcEvoyHalston

    3 years ago

    Obama is right wing--Someone

    Obama is right wing--Someone who will soon enough militarize all of America, and set up real progressives as enemies of state. For a progressive's alerts on how Obama is ALREADY working to further the potential reach and abuse of the executive, be sure to keep abreast of Glenn Greenwald's daily columns over there at Salon.com. (At some point Joan Walsh can be trusted to do the same, too--she was, after-all, one of the first to show real alarm at just how readily Obama operatives went about destroying reputations of notables on the left, simply to clear way for their candidate.)

  • VivianLea Doubt

    3 years ago

    22 days to the degree...

    G West, I hazard a guess that everyone posting on this thread wants a more representative legislature. (Could be some exceptions.) The point is, we have to reframe, I believe. Here we have the same arguments that have played out ad infinitum: group differentiated-rights versus individual rights, backlash against perceived interest groups, even the PC language debate. Where's the vibrancy, the elasticity, the colour?

    Although on that note I am now dressed in sophisticated black, right down to the pearls...Now, that's not an irrelevancy. I'm off to present some research findings and understand the language of my audience and how to present myself to their expectations. But after all, wouldn't it just be so much better if the expectations could be a little freer, a little juicier...

    In that spirit, I will put on my red boots. And for no other reason than too much seriousness is a bad thing, I leave you with a couple of lines from Dorothy Parker:
    (A Fairly Sad Tale)

    ...
    The lad's I've met in Cupid's deadlock
    Were - shall we say? - born out of wedlock.

  • nightbloom

    3 years ago

    "Those would be the raw

    "Those would be the raw figures. When statistical corrections are made for education, experience, and other factors the gap is more like 10 to 15 percent."

    Good point. The other gap no one likes to talk about is the productivity gap. University-educated professional males are still up to 30% more productive over the course of their careers than their female counterparts. Equal pay for equal work indeed.

    I've yet to see a study on relative workforce remuneration levels that factors in use of benefits, such as maternity leave and other medical benefits accessed predominantly by women. I'm talking actual usage of benefits. I suspect the remuneration gap would close even further.

  • G West

    3 years ago

    Should we call this a poetry slam?

    I think there's more than language involved and, I'm not sure that what C Wright Mills called the 'Power Elite' is at all interested in 'representative' government...but that for another time.

    I kind of like this one, from Edna St Vincent Millay, and forgive me, given your obvious state of current splendor, it seems sort of apt....

    My candle burns at both ends;
    It will not last the night;
    But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends—
    It gives a lovely light.

    I think, if memory serves, she called it First Fig.....

    Don't worry about the expectations - unless they're yours.

  • G West

    3 years ago

    nightbloom

    I absolutely agree with you. More fathers should be, and be trying to access, family benefits....good luck with your campaign.

  • G West

    3 years ago

    erratum

    That should be:
    More fathers should be accessing, and trying to access, family benefits....good luck with your campaign.

  • Fii

    3 years ago

    "Nature's First Green Is Gold"

    My favourite poem, GWest :)

    And how funny, last week I tutored a student and mentioned that very poem (she was learning "The Road Not Taken"), and this eve when I tutored her she said they had started to read "The Outsiders" at school and voila- there it was again in the story and she had recognized it... and now I see it on this thread... !! How cool.

    I'm always intrigued by the "who makes more $$ argument" because really, a lot of what drives people to earn more is the fact that they set their personal worth on their salary. A certain income will guarantee a comfortable lifestyle and a certain degree of freedom, but beyond that what is the point? Perhaps more women than men tend to find self-worth in areas other than work, and that is the simple reason for the disparity?

  • VivianLea Doubt

    3 years ago

    no, this is a poetry nudge

    Fii, I like your point - personally my self-worth, fortunately, does not depend on what I earn, or for that matter on any other external markers (colour of jammies, etc.)There are those that argue that true freedom lies in choosing for oneself, especially if it lies outside the mainstream. I am particularly cognizant of that as I struggle to finish a degree - struggle because the absence of real thinking is visibly discouraged.Since I have in large part been defined by my thinking skills, it is a considerable challenge to confine myself to a very narrow range.

    G West, splendour was not was I was aiming for yesterday (but I will take it as a compliment) - no, it was drab conformism.As I just noted, it has been a real shock to be required to model myself on a prissy and outdated paradigm; however, someone else decides my fitness for a degree. Learning from the enemy is a great thing, never the less.

    Can I close with an excerpt from a poem? Thanks...

    (final verse, Erin Moure, The Cooking)

    A poem in which a chicken continually interupts
    the 'democratic process'.
    An unspeakable chicken.
    The chicken of our bad dream.
    The one we woke up from, our mouths dry, and looked out.
    in the alley, a television light.
    Choose, the prime minister said.
    We rolled over.
    We thought he said: 'choose".

  • G West

    3 years ago

    Fii and VivianLea

    That works for me too...but, the world about us needs yardsticks and, sadly, we tend to have to play by the rules of the game.

    That's especially so when one has children and the plight of the 20 - 30 % of the kids in this province who are poor by any fair measuring stick leads me to support the quest for greater equity - especially for women....

    Time was when a small black dress and pearls meant something akin to splendour but perhaps I'm dating myself.

    There's a really fascinating piece by Christopher Buckley coming up in this Sunday's New York Times Magazine - I think you'll both enjoy it.

    Too busy - no poetry today.

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