Gov't to Small Biz: Stimulate Yourselves
Of billions flowing to boost BC economy, a mere trickle for start-up owners.
Quesnel's Greg Woodward: Move to Saskatchewan?
He's an entrepreneur in the heartland of B.C. A Quesnel-based businessman who lives with his wife, dogs and small child on an acreage near town and chops firewood in the winter cold. For years, he's wanted to build a set of advanced greenhouses that could grow year-round produce for local markets.
So when Greg Woodward heard about the $14 billion stimulus package announced in this year's provincial budget, he went searching for a $60,000 loan. Days later, he emerged from a bureaucratic maze of answering machines and e-mail convinced he wouldn't receive a penny from the B.C. government. The process left him so discouraged he's thinking about relocating to Saskatchewan, where he said he could get $15,000 in start-up money.
As the province enters its most protracted recession in years, some insiders believe modest, local businesses offer a way out of the financial crisis. But with most stimulus money in the Feb. 17 budget targeted towards multi-million dollar infrastructure projects, the government's plan may do little to alleviate B.C.'s economic woes.
"I think they've missed the boat," said Jerry Botti, general manager of Community Futures Nadina, which provides loans and advice to prospective business owners. "For true community stability, long-term investments in small businesses really make a difference."
Tough economic times
Woodward started thinking about growing tomatoes and peppers in the harsh winter climate of interior B.C. six years ago. Expensive technology postponed his plan, but recent food price hikes and cheaper artificial lighting have made the venture feasible.
Depending on its size and scope, he estimated the business could create up to 20 Quesnel jobs in the midst of a financial crisis. Like dozens of hard-hit B.C. communities, the forestry downturn has put scores of labourers out of work and sent shockwaves through the local economy.
"You notice it in the mall parking lots," Woodward said. "The base of commerce is falling apart, people aren't shopping."
Rising unemployment, spiraling household debt and tightened credit mean traditional lenders aren't eager to help. When Woodward approached his local bank for a start-up loan, he couldn't meet the institution's stiffer-than-usual criteria.
Undeterred, he approached Community Futures, a federally-funded non-profit agency with 34 branches in B.C. The organization loans money to riskier ventures, but asks for down payments of about 20 per cent and rigorously monitors fledgling businesses.
Woodward said his greenhouse project would likely qualify for support -- and he has enough capital to meet the requirements -- but he decided to look for funding sources with less red tape. That's when his headache began.
'Complete waste of time'
In early February, Premier Gordon Campbell announced $14 billion in stimulus spending over three years, with hundreds of millions of dollars fast-tracked for the coming months.
Though the money is slated for major infrastructure projects such as road upgrades, Woodward began contacting government departments to see if prospective business owners would see any benefits.
"That turned out to be a complete waste of time," he said.
Woodward spent two days clicking on broken web links and leaving unreturned voice messages. When he did get officials on the phone, they directed him to government websites or told him to contact someone else.
Eventually, a mid-level bureaucrat at the Ministry of Agriculture informed him that small businesses won't receive any additional start-up funding in this year's budget.
The Tyee contacted Gary Webb, business services advisor at Small Business B.C., to verify Woodward's story. According to its website, the non-profit agency is "British Columbia's key resource centre for business information and services."
When people ask for help in finding loan sources, Webb told The Tyee he sends a "standard response by e-mail" with a list of available options.
Asked if prospective business owners would have a hard time finding start-up money through the B.C. government, Webb agreed the process could be discouraging.
"As soon as you mention grants, you're probably going to get a standard statement on where to go or they'll just try to pawn you off because there's not really any free money to start a business," he said.
What's in a stimulus package?
During tough economic times, governments need to spend money where they're sure to get a return, said John Winter, president of the B.C. Chamber of Commerce. In this year's provincial budget, that translates to billions of dollars for shovel-ready projects and an estimated 88,000 jobs over three years.
Far from shutting the door on small business, Winter said independent firms in the construction industry -- and those that service it -- will see huge benefits from the spending package. But he acknowledged that many companies not involved in either sector will have little to celebrate.
And tough luck for fledgling entrepreneurs.
"It's not designed to be a new business stimulant, it's designed to be a current business support," he said. "This is a very precarious time of an economic cycle to invest in new businesses."
Instead, the provincial budget cuts the small business tax rate by two percentage points and boosts worker training programs. Those measures complement a recent federal infusion of $350 million into the Business Development Bank of Canada, Winter said.
"To the province's credit, they didn't go off on a tangent and start creating all new stimulus programs," he said. "They leveraged the federal dollars."
B.C. Minister of Small Business, Technology and Economic Development Ida Chong did not return The Tyee's phone calls.
Province missed out
Jerry Botti runs the Nadina branch of Community Futures out of Houston, a northern B.C. town with a 60-foot-tall fly-fishing rod, the world's largest. He told The Tyee his small staff is struggling to deal with a deluge of loan applications caused by forestry layoffs and withheld credit.
"We've seen a lot of people come forward looking for some financing to get them through a tough period," he said. "All of us expect that the demand is going to become much higher over the next couple of years."
Botti isn't opposed to large-scale infrastructure spending, but he thinks the province missed a golden opportunity in its recent budget.
Generally speaking, he said, small businesses provide long-term jobs, generate dependable revenues and spend more in the local economy than big contractors from outside the area. "A million dollar project can have some great benefits for a community but it's here and then gone," he said.
Over the last 15 years, his Community Futures branch has helped start almost 700 businesses -- and 75 per cent are still operating.
"Most CF's have similar statistics," Botti said. "We've certainly had a huge amount of job creation out of that."
Saskatchewan beckons
After his experience with the B.C. government, Woodward decided to look to other provinces for loan sources. He was blown away by the difference.
"After two days of busting my head up against the wall here, I started sourcing info in Saskatchewan, and in under two minutes they had me on the phone with Farm Credit Canada."
Woodward has applications in with the federal lending agency and is seriously considering a move to the prairies. According to government sources he spoke to, he's likely eligible for $15,000 in provincial funding under the Small Business Loans Association Program. And he said the province appeared willing to help him find land for his greenhouses.
All this has Woodward shaking his head in disbelief.
"It's a totally different approach," he said. "The attitude is way better."
Over the last few days, Woodward received a glimmer of hope from the B.C. government. During a last minute conversation before deadline, he told The Tyee he'd been contacted by several bureaucrats who'd lamented the current loan system and promised to look into the issue.
Related Tyee stories:
- Co-ops want a piece of stimulus budget
- Artists stimulate economy better, cheaper
- A City's Fragile Soul
The push to slick up Vancouver, and the price.
![[Tyee]](http://thetyee.cachefly.net/ui/img/ico_fishie.png){kind=small}
Luke Skywalker
05-03-2009
It's Not That Easy... But...
Even in "good" times, it's not that easy to obtain financing or equity capital for a start-up. That's the toughest part of business.
A realistic and detailed business plan is paramount inclusive of realistic pro-forma capital costs and realistic pro-forma operating costs.
And then the realistic cost of agricultural goods produced, on the flip side of the coin. "Local markets" will only purchase if they deem same to be competitively priced in terms of wholesale pricing.
And then the financial applicant's background in such a start-up is also taken into consideration.
Any lender/equity investor wants to ensure that they will be repaid/earn a return.
Private venture capital firms are also in abundance and represent another option.
Heck, even Vancouver mayor Gregor Robertson, "the Juice King", was only able to access venture capital for his Happy Planet start-up.
It's certainly not easy commencing a start-up but I wish Greg Woodward the best of luck!
RickW
05-03-2009
It's a filter system.....
Governments in general do not like small business, because they know that the political 'donations' small businesses make will be much more frugal, or just plain not made at all -- whereas "stimulus" money made available to large businesses will inevitably fatten the coffers of the party making the -- uh -- loans.
PS - And much was made of business leaving BC under the NDP. Stand aside Glen Clark! There's a new kid in town, and he ain't gonna be outdone!
Luke Skywalker
05-03-2009
Small Business BC... Reality Check...
The Canadian Federation of Independent Business (CFIB) represents small business BC.
And their attitudes toward the current BC government and its economic/fiscal plans????:
http://www.fcei.ca/en/media/releases09/bc021809.asp
And that's the reality.
Frank
05-03-2009
Why would people need help?
"Staggering BC job losses and the continued abandonment of forest workers
Statistics Canada today reported 35,000 jobs were lost in BC in January. The job losses in BC account for almost one quarter of all jobs lost in Canada last month."
http://bcfed.org/node/1489
Bankruptcies climb in B.C.
"Federal Industry Ministry data show that B.C. consumer bankruptcy filings for August were up more than 10 per cent over the same period last year.
August also saw a 16.3-per-cent increase in proposal filings, an alternative to bankruptcy."
http://www2.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=d170cd8b-5196-41e2-88b8-d5ed1aed4aca
Median earnings plummet in B.C.
"Over this five-year period between 2000 and 2005, B.C. and Quebec were the only two provinces to record a decline. In B.C., a province that experienced higher-than-average employment growth, median earnings for individuals fell 3.4% between 2000 and 2005. Median earnings in Quebec fell by 0.3%."
http://www2.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=f3bc45da-1a34-4836-829d-967c2cceb1a6&k=65123
Frank
05-03-2009
How to do business with your local Liberal
"Today, a lesson for everyone who deals with government, courtesy of John Les and the rural stores that sell alcohol.
The stores' owners believed they were being treated unfairly a few years ago.
The government had cut wholesale prices for private liquor stores, boosting their profits (at taxpayers' expense). But the rural agents hadn't got the same break.
Keep quiet, Les warned them in 2007, and I might get you a better deal.
But if the issue hit the media or was raised in the legislature, they could forget about getting anything done.
"One more question in QP [question period] or an article in the paper and it's over," said Les, then the solicitor general."
http://willcocks.blogspot.com/2009/03/heeding-threats-and-playing-nice-with.html
Perhaps Mr Woodward just needs a lesson in how gov't and business work together in BC?
HawkEyes
06-03-2009
Only in BC
How does $14 billion stimulus become road upgrades?
"Over the last 15 years, his Community Futures branch has helped start almost 700 businesses -- and 75 per cent are still operating. "Most CF's have similar statistics," Botti said... "
This works out to CF branches helping less than 1 new business per week? That's not a lot of help, imho.
The number of people turned away would be of interest.
I looked into the CF Self Employment Program. After a couple of meetings, I met my business advisor; who knew I'd be shown the door before I got there. To be seen again and maybe be permitted to apply for the grant, I would have had to spend a lot of time and money to solicit my 'business idea' in a most unprofessional manner. It was a recipe for failure and I was pissed - my bitch list was two pages long.
Guaranteed Annual Income.
RickW
06-03-2009
LSW
It sure does. It says that, in spite of the bureaucratic roadblocks, small business persists in BC. Small business comprises the bulk of employment, yet it is Big Business that gets both the bulk of the "stimulus" cash, and the easing of restrictions.
I wonder why Big Business can't be as efficient as small business, and feels the need to go to government at every hiccup in the road.............
alive
06-03-2009
not so smart
There is no doubt that smaller ventures can be very effecient, and that people laid off may have ideas that could prove succesfull.
However this is not a smart time to put even more products on the market, if people have no monies to buy it makes no difference what you offer for sale.
Since most new projects are likely to fail it would be very risky for our governments to invest in such speculation, even in good times.
Van Isle
06-03-2009
C'mon, it's a known fact ALL
C'mon, it's a known fact ALL governments normally support big business and give lip-service to small business which is the backbone of any economy. The way that big business operates now is that they hire a lobbiest who then goes and woo's the minister concerned; job done, next. I have read and seen over the years on people who have wonderful ideas but have been frustrated by big government so the idea dies or those people move to other provinces. Example; look at that fella in Errington who has his electric vehicles and has no problem flogging them in foreign countries. But here in BC????
freebear
06-03-2009
More Trickle Down My Leg Theory!
I remember in Quebec you knew an election was close because of the highway paving going on!
I too think we should go with a guaranteed income (livable); do away with social assistance and employment insurance; tax income earned in addition to guaranteed income.
We need a crash to make the corrections needed!
cfvua
06-03-2009
Small business
Good luck to Mr. Woodward and others like him. It sure would be nice to pick up locally grown produce and even pay a little more knowing that the money stays local and might help improve local econo mies. IT seems that large oil and gas producers aren't having any problem with access to "stimulus" with about $1.3 Billion in so called "incentives" flowing into their ledgers in the last 6 years. The MInistry of Energy web site is almost out of room for places to list their "Royalty Programs". All of this being completely revolting with almost no spin-off jobs happening for BC residents. We can't even find out what projects are being done. The focus seems to be to get the income taxes and profits flowing eastward to Alberta. Oh, maybe I missed the point, since all the producers are based in Alberta for some reason. It's like living in college next to the broke guy who never puts anything back in your fridge and then steals your job. I think that without immediate changes in policy, election time will reveal that Peace River North and South cannot be assumed to be "safe seats" any longer.
GMW
06-03-2009
Displacement Caused by Shovels
If you are out of your trade shoveling for the next three years you will become stale. This will cause technical displacement. Those shovel jobs are not permanent and do not benefit the area where the work is done except to improve infastructure. I'm all for that but... We do have a comprehensive plan for the greenhouses and recognize the need to secure our food sources. We are not alone in this thinking. Two other provinces recognize the dangers.
What will happen when the spending bubble bursts?
What happened to the food supply in the last great depression? Get ready to eat bacon fat on toast!
We, the small business people, are the Canaries in the proverbial gold mine.
GMW
06-03-2009
Start Ups
I'm the guy in the article.
I have extensive experience developing small business. I have capital too.
What this idea is about is helping the unemployed create meaningful self employment ie businesses.
Luke cites start up money. Luke, you didn't read the fine print for those links.
Everyone:
Try this experiment. You just lost your job. You have $4000 in cash in the bank. You have EI (or not. Try both). You have 3 kids and a mortgage of $600 a month plus all the regular expenses. You must try to open a business in 2 months that will keep you alive.
I could post all my resources to help you realise the futility but you need to experience it first hand.
We did the reaserch to help people who want to buy our product (business package) get through the hoops with a minimal of wasted time. This way we can say very quickly what level of package a person should go for.
We didn't do this to get rich fast. We are doing it to feed you guys. We can and will set up our own operation and if things go bad we'll eat good but you won't!
All the province has to do is provide enough matching capital to the buyer so that they can obtain a Community Futures loan. I recomend CF because they help with the business management. We know that almost no one walks out of a career in forestry with a deep knowledge of business and a degree as an Agronomist.
The bar needs to be lower to 5% matching capital commitment. I agree that 20% was fine in the good old days. But that just ain't so nowadays is it.
GMW
06-03-2009
Investors
Anyone know an investor or two? Our website is grow365.ca The navigation menu is obviously passworded. I can't give the farm away.
GMW
06-03-2009
One more thing about our business plans
The cost of the food is less than store prices and can be kept stable. People benefit by stability. It helps you plan ahead and saves money in the long term. A business does better under stable conditions.
The drought in California is just one thing but Monsanto et.al. are reeking havoc in the seed market too. Welcome to the Shock Doctrine. (Google it)
People must realize that our USA friends have to fix their export problem and can't spend their way out of this. Nor can we! In addition, Obama has actually hired a number of the people responcible for this problem. Remember history. They also have to break up the oligopy of the banks because the banks are more powerful than the government is. They had to do it to their giant oil company during the great depression for the same reasons. All indications reveal that Obama won't do it.
You can expect to see this take 9 years to resolve its self. In the mean time it has the potential to be worse than before because we've become too dependent on food from other countries. It would be foolish to think it can't happen because it is happening!
We don't need a buy BC campaign. Our vegi's will be better because they are not designed for shipping. We will do it in the dirt. No chemicals and no modifieds. Last, fresh off the vine is always better.
If we do come through this recession unscathed then good for all of us. This project of ours could create 3000 permanent jobs in BC in two years if the money was there. The alternative, if we fail and things go bad, is unthinkable.
If you have grandparents who lived through the great depression I suggest you have a chat with them.
Rhea
06-03-2009
People aren't likely to stop buying food...
To the person who claimed that the government shouldn't waste money on non-essentials...what the hell do you call the billion dollar scam that is VANOC 2010? It's certainly not a smart investment.
No matter how bad the economy gets, everyone still needs to eat. In the north and central areas of the province, you pay a ridiculous premium for sub-quality produce that has been trucked in from Armpit, Montana, starting when it's not even ripe. GMW's idea would replace this with jobs, better food, and more food security. How is that worse?
And even if it fails, $60K is a drop in the bucket compared to the billions wasted by the government on budget pork handouts and other useless crap.
I wish I could say that I'm shocked by the roadblocks thrown up by the government in front of small businesses, but sadly I'm not...it's far too common.
GMW, I wish you the best of luck with your venture...it's going to be sorely needed in the very near future.
notamused
06-03-2009
Sunshine tax
I wouldn't move to Saskatchewan for $15,000.
GMW
06-03-2009
We already have all the veggies sold
There are "Farm to School" projects, POP (Pregnancy Outreach Programs), Food Security Initiatives in 3 provinces, Healthy Diet for First Nations Initiatives, Farmers Markets, restaurants, our own 10 mile group... I could go on. My list is quite long.
If we fail we fail because we don't know how to grow a carrot or an onion or perhaps a potato. One person cannot meet the demand of just the groups I've listed here. This would take 10. The article cited 20 persons. That would just begin to address the food needs of Quesnel. We really need about 40 people growing. Then there's the people to provide local distribution and people to sell produce.
We could benefit by owning an electric van to distribute to shut in people and other seniors. We could use a low speed wind turbine but they don't make them. I'd be happy to design one but I have to work to pay the bills so that will have to wait.
switek
06-03-2009
A question for GMW
Just curious but why not just put together a business plan and go to a bank or Credit Union for financing like everyone else does ?
GMW
06-03-2009
Business Plan...
We have a rather detailed plan. We actually can raise the money to set up one operation for ourselves. This does not leave enough money to set up a business to sell the technology to others.
Also. Our banker reads the Tyee! They would consider lending to us because we have no bills, cash in the bank, no credit card debt to speak of, we own our land and 25 years experience in starting up businesses. But if it is that difficult for someone with our credit rating to get a loan then most others have no chance. That would put a damper on sales of the technology.
Luke Skywalker
06-03-2009
GMW...
From the article, I was under the impression that you personally were looking for financing/equity investment.
But based upon the foregoing quotation, it appears that you are selling "greenhouse business packages" to the recently unemployed.
Or have I misunderstood?
switek
06-03-2009
I don’t understand. You
I don’t understand. You said...
"They would consider lending to us because we have no bills, cash in the bank, no credit card debt to speak of, we own our land and 25 years experience in starting up businesses" - GMW
You just said you could borrow money form your banker as you have equity in your land so why not just do that? What am I missing here?
GMW
06-03-2009
What people are missing
We are in a better position than most of the newly unemployed. We are trying to create employment. We are not trying to become greenhouse czars. We just have a good idea that could do a lot of good for a lot of people.
Switek: With our capital there's no way we can do much for anyone else.
Luke: It looks like you went to our website and realized what a good idea it is. Now you come off as envious.
I have 4 more good ideas that could put people to work. Why do you belittle our efforts? Do you not realize just how bad it is for some people.
The facts were checked by Geoff. There's no BS going on here. The government here really dropped the ball. In Sask and Manitoba they have their acts together. I have been pressing our gov to address the problems and I'm making headway.
They are implementing a communication strategy because they recognise the importance of fast communications. They are going to fix that. Also, as the article said, they are going to work on the issue of owner capital. It will take time.
They are coming to grips with the fact that the shovel program will cause its own set of problems and are moving to head that off. They are listening! Ok, it's a little late but better than never.
Luke. I don't care which party is in power as long as they look after small business. You may be a Liberal Blog Troll like people have suggested in their emails but I don't care. I do care that you are trying to confuse the issues.
We do need people to buy greenhouse businesses and equipment off us. They can also just go out and buy there stuff from someone else too. We are using an OPEN SOURCE IDEA. That means anyone can do it.
What we offer that's different? 5 years of research. Why reinvent the wheel. Why not benefit from our experience. Take up my challenge for the business experiment. See for yourself what the problems are.
If we had a lot more capital we would help people get into the business by setting up an office that did the sales and training for people who wanted to get into the business. As it is, we are going to do it the hard way. First we set up a conventional operation. Then over time we take it high tech. Much later we will open a sales office.
If all goes well with the economy then no one goes hungry. If we go into a depression then OH WELL we eat good and you starve. I hope you enjoy bacon fat on toast.
What you are blind to is that the clock is ticking. We can't build 600 greenhouses across BC by ourselves. We could set up maybe 2 a month and that's it.
If you have specific questions why not email me directly.
frenchy mcswede
07-03-2009
excellent and irrefutable points by frank
Thanks so much for the posted link on median incomes falling faster in BC than anywhere else in Canada, between 2000 and 2005. Yet one more item in the ever-growing litany and list of DISMAL BC LIBERAL ECONOMIC FAILURE.
Of course big business councils support the liberals, all they care about are their unjustified taxcuts. Were the premier to be caught drunk with his pants down at granville and broadway, they would still be enthusiastically on board. Supporting a government without a conscience has damaged the image of BC big business forever.
So let's review that list of BC Liberal economic failures:
Median incomes fell faster than anywhere else in Canada between 2000 and 2005 in BC.
Despite having not funded social programs or BC Ministries for almost 8 years, despite record transfer payments for 2 years, despite record income from high commodity prices and housing bubble taxes the BC LIBERALS ARE FLAT BROKE, and propose to run a budget with NO CONTINGENCY MONEY and a laughably low deficit estimate of a half billion dollars.
Despite lingering Olympic construction and the benefits thereof, the liberals lost more jobs than any other province last january, and, as proved by growing EI and welfare numbers have been losing jobs for almost a year.
A Vaughn Palmer column of last june cites statistics that show NO INCREASE IN MANUFACTURING JOBS UNDER THE BC LIBERALS.
The ndp needs very much to put aside at least 5% of their campaign budget for an attack ad based on these irrefutable truths. Can anyone help me add to this list??
GMW
07-03-2009
quarry et al
This is Greg's wife..I thought I'd put it another way to see if maybe it would help explain things.
Think of a car company. They build cars, but people generally can't afford to layout the cash all at once. So they send people to get financing. If people can't get financing then the car companies don't sell any cars. Car companies don't tell you how they build the cars, what equipment they use to build them effeciantly, the design process etc. If you really want to, you can buy all the parts yourself and build your own car...but most people don't.
We build greenhouses. Most people can't lay out the cash to buy a greenhouse..they too will need financing or we won't sell any. They aren't magic..the parts are all available..you can do the math, the physics..buy the parts and put them together yourself..no one is stopping you. Or you can buy from us and we do it for you. When did that become a scam?
Our site isn't set up for the general public yet. It will eventually have all the componants, prices, calculators for heat/light costs, etc and pretty pictures all layed out (Have you tried building a website with a toddler running around?). Right now the site is set up for investors, bankers etc to view our business plan and cash flow sheets. I'm not aware of any business that lays out their plan and cash flow statements for the general public to puruse. We aren't selling a look for $29.99 act now! It's not a peep show and it isn't an infomercial. Notice it's not in the article? It's not finished....Greg was just offering a look for those interested.
As it stands, with financing the way it is for everyone, we will likely be working on the commercial side of things and with the various government food initiatives versus trying to sell to the public. It's a great small business idea but since no funding is available for that sector..we'll work with those that already have the cash. It will mean more $4.40 a pound tomatoes in the stores..but such as life.
morechatter
08-03-2009
WoodWards is not alone
As this is a common complaint from those trying to establish a small business in BC it is said near to impossible. Except for the Cash Store which is interesting as it was taking the full cheques of the poor as interest rates as much as 50%. In fact just heard they had to turn back their rates and do some other cleaning up bout how much of a person cheque they could lend out. But business is booming for sure and on Welfare Wednesday you can see those on disabilities and alike lined up a mile long outside the Cash Store to pay back their loan leaving them penniless. And government guarantees these stores these people GST and PST alike so many your just approaching it wrong maybe you have to find out from the Cash Store what it takes to turn the Premier on. Anybody want to buy my trains? The way of the future is small business along with more and more companies having women and non white male CEO's at their helm or so it is perdicted in the world of business. And it looks like politics too!
realisticman
08-03-2009
GMW
Have you approached the federal Business Development Bank, or the Western Economic Diversification people? These organizations
are there with funding for your type of situation.
Also, you say that: "Our last major development was to prepare a private post secondary school chain for entry into Asian markets, increase the companies market share, expand the business and position it for sale by the retiring owners. "
Would you tell us more about this and if it was successful, and where.
ModestyBlaise
09-03-2009
GMW
Gloria Woodward is the contact regarding the sale of the Kennedy Street house at the Nanaimo address of the registrar for http://grow365.ca. The contact there for the site where you receive your email is listed as Hilary Morgan. Is this another partner of your present company MorganWood? This Nanaimo address is also the address of BC Bartending Canada Online school. Is this the post secondary school chain you mentioned before? EDITED FOR LEGAL CONCERNS -- TYEE MODERATOR