Your missing the point......

Luke,when shit like this get stuffed down your throat with no consultation,no enviromental review and......

With the world going into Depression only a fool or (Gordon Campbell and the BC Liberals) would surrender that kind of money maker to private pockets.

Yeah but does Manitoba have a Man. Hydro crown corp.?

Just once Luke, I would like you to post an opinion that does not include a quote from some other source you agree with. Just because you put quotations around it does not make it fact. I rarely ever read your posts because of it. Do you actually have an opinion, or is your job just to post stuff others have said. Break free man!

g west...

So have you made your thoughts known to Manitoba New Democrat Premier Gary Doer???

New Democrats are New Democrats or are they????

Ya know the old adage... "The buck stops here" in the political sense ;)

I live in BC not Manitoba

The radio program was about BC and the rip off of BC taxpayers.

Sorry you missed it luke - it was disgusting.

When are you going to quit, you're just phoning it in now anyway.

Nothing but same old, same old.

Are you posting from Winnipeg luke?

g west....

Alright, answer this question... in a rational, reasonable, common sense manner, if that's possible.

New Democrats are New Democrats across Canada, agree??? And I'm not talkin' about party members.

Ergo, why is it OK for Manitoba Hydro, under New Democrat Premier Gary Doer, to engage in private power IPP's while it is NOT OK in BC, under your hated neo-con government???

Those private power IPP corporate concerns in Manitoba would also "disgust" you, I'm sure.

Again, I only ask for a rational, reasonable, common sense response.

Reasoning by analogy is fallacious logic my friend

I don't know a damn thing about what Gary Doer does or doesn't do; I haven't studied it and I don't really give it a pennyworth of thought - ever.

The reasonable common sense response for BC is that we shouldn't be mortgaging our future to a bunch of private entrepreneurs for a public asset that belongs to the people of British Columbia.

a) There is no current need for the additional power - except to sell it to Americans;
b) Conservation and careful planning can flatten the demand curve here just as has happened in California since the late 70s, and;
c) If and when we need new power we should develop it ourselves and not sell our future to a bunch of corporate theives who happen to have the CEO's ear.

I couldn't care less what happens in Manitoba and your attempt to change the subject is as pathetic as Campbell's facile claim today that the Olympics would bring the province out of recession.

That, in my opinion is a reasonable, common sense response.

As for whether or not New Democrats agree from province to province - how the hell would I know - I'm not a member, remember?

Thanks Frank

Now maybe we can get back to the selling of British Columbia, eh?

Manitoba Hydro - Ohhh Brother...

The Tyee's NDP poster cover-up has now begun. :)

http://www.hydro.mb.ca/projects/wind_st_leon.shtml

That's akin to ~50% of the production of Site C based on a per capita basis provincial transposition. And it gets even better...

Manitoba Hydro subsequently issued another RFP for 300 MW of private IPP power two years ago, which would represent over 1,200 MW (compared to Site C's 900 MW) on a per capita basis provincial transposition.

http://news.gov.mb.ca/news/index.html?archive=&item=1395

And then...

Oh really - I thought you'd left the building luke

In fiscal 2007, Manitoba Hydro obtained only 1.27 % of its total generated electrical energy from fossil fuel at the Brandon generating station, and 0.99% from wind energy purchased from the St. Leon project. About 0.77% of energy distributed in the province was imported.

Hey Frank.. g west...

Yuk Yuk's comedy club is always lookin' for a good duo comedy routine.

Ya guys interested?

Abbott & Costello, Moe & Curly (forget Larry), Dumb and Dumber... :D

'Cause of you guys, I love this site!

And in BC

BC Hydro last year committed to $9.5 billion in new energy-purchase agreements with private power developers over the next 25 years.

Hydro's figures show the 2006 tender alone will add 8.1 per cent to electricity rates, the report says.

More

When BC Hydro announced the results of the 2006 call in July, the amount of energy it had committed to purchase had risen dramatically, from the 2,700 GWh originally tendered, to 7,125 GWh.5 - over three times the amount BC Hydro had previously indicated it would acquire. It signalled a dramatic
expansion of the role of privately-sourced energy in BC’s electricity system.

luke

Just can't help yourself buddy - keep on phoning it in - but let's forget the calls from Winnipeg eh?

G

"Hydro does have a program of grants...but you have to spend a lot of money, and endure two extremely lame and useless energy audits, to get even the smallest ones"

Yup I know, we didn't even bother doing the two energy audits, just did the renos. The BC program is useless.

Just went through the whole process

I just went through the whole stupid process with a group of clients (small strata corp with 6 townhouses that need windows upgrades & etc.).

It was the lamest experience I think I've ever had....and it's only half over.

The pressure tests they do with their little fan in the door prove less than nothing and the 'energy consultant' spent more time taking digital photographs and talking about the idea that the owners should install heat pumps if they really wanted to save money.

After a day of dealing with him (and they have to go over the same stuff again in a couple of months) I was ready to tear my hair out.

All for a grant of about $200 on a purchase expense of
$6500+.

And the consultant came over from Vancouver for the day to do it....

Suffice to say, by the time they pay me for my time they won't save a penny.

North of Hope

"however will our power be generated and controlled by BC Hydro owned facilities? "

Exactly.

Also, there's the deal with Accenture which is certainly not a publicly owned company although its doing part of our Crown Corp's work.

ME2...

If the NDP in Manitoba does what the Libs do in BC, what's the diff between the two???? Really.

So what you are actually sayin' is that if publicly-owned Manitoba Hydro enters into IPP contracts under the NDP... good on the NDP government. Why should I care? Remember though, that Canadian New Democrats treat each others akin to brothers/sisters... Or didn't you know that?

But if BC Hydro enters into IPP contracts under the Libs that's bad. Very baaaaaaaaad. [And a continuation of BC Hydro policy since 2000 (forget it Jimmy)]

What sort of silly ideology do you actually adhere to? :)))))))))

That's a kooky rationalization on your part... and you are what I thought to be the reasonable voice of the "left" on here, while Rod Smelser is the reasonable voice of the "centre-left" on here. But I digress.

Luke Skywalker

Haha! I'd thought that after the last thread on this topic you'd be a little more careful about making statements like this one. Actually, knowing you, probably not. You make it too easy :)

This is like watching ping pong...

Yawn.....zzzzzzzzzz....

Please shut up

"Alright, answer this question... in a rational, reasonable, common sense manner, if that's possible.

New Democrats are New Democrats across Canada, agree??? And I'm not talkin' about party members."

What a ridiculous premise. To be equally ridiculous, do all men named Bill share the same perspective?

The transparent attempts to smear whoever you're told to smear, with the occasional dollop of faint praise for your handlers to act as a sorbet to cut through the offal stench of obvious spin doctoring pretty much destroys any reasonable debate on this forum Luke. The constant references to polls in place of actual grown-up analysis and thought just increases the static. It used to be you could read the comments and learn things from the original ideas and creative minds of posters, but your contributions are a negative influence on the discourse. At least Bob Peru, however kooky some of his ideas may be, comes to the table with some original thoughts.

Dissent is necessary and welcome to combat group-think, but your contributions are so narrow, programmed, and self-serving that no real gain can be realized from them. No offence, but your credibility is shot to hell.

To all posters. Let Luke

To all posters.

Let Luke post. But don't respond. Talk amongst yourselves as they say and we can have a productive debate without the equivalent of a toddler yanking on our coattail and begging for attention.

As they say, "self-referential"

Luke Skywalker
At least Manitoba New Democrat Premier Gary Doer doesn't run an ideological government akin to the mindset of many posters on here. :)

No kidding.

UnCivilized: This is how condos are sold

UnCivilizedEngineer
The water is returned to the rivers within minutes - the natural hydrology is not altered significantly.

This kind of idealized vision of "how the project works" must have been written by the same propagandists who write sales brochures for condos. It might actually be true for some projects, but it doesn't apply to all of them.

Slightly off topic

Would it be unfair to ask why crown corporations are spending the public's money on, as Michael Smyth puts it, an Olympic sized party.

Wonder how much those 3800 tickets cost?

http://www2.canada.com/theprovince/columnists/story.html?id=ec1866ce-528e-4c09-93de-edd6c8ae478c&p=1

The Premise of the Article is Likely Moot...

Mustel came out with it latest BC public opinion poll today showing the spread widening in favour of the Libs to 16%.

Lib - 52%
NDP - 36%
Green - 12%

http://www.mustelgroup.com/pdf/20090213.pdf

If those numbers hold up on election day, it looks like a 65-seat Lib, 20-seat NDP legislature. Landslide Lib territory.

It looks like Bill Tieleman was fed some baffle-gab yesterday and was hoodwinked.

Ummmm - luke

Have a look, Bill's got Mustel's typically unreliable random poll results up on his blog too.

I think we know where the baffle gab is coming from.

As for being hoodwinked, that certainly applies to anyone who belives anything that the CEO has ever said.

You might want to have a look at the legislation being introduced in Victoria these days. Would you care to entertain an wager about how much of it ever gets passed?

Slightly off topic

It certainly would be fair to ask why Crown corporation monopolies are spending money on Olympic tickets. It would also be fair to ask why the recipients of the tickets (whether from Crown corps or other companies) do not have to declare the benefit as income.

Don't disagree with that reallife

Excellent point and not all that off topic...most of these issues revolve around a sense of responsibility and accountability.
And a sense of the real meaning of public service...

Something we haven't seen all that much of lately.

G West - Olympic tickets etc.

My comments were in regard to all persons accepting freebies, whether in public service or private industry. Every sporting event has corporate boxes filled with people on a free ride. Lets face it, the companies paying the tab expect something in return - polical favours or extra business. Political favours are obviously not in the public interest and business deals bought through these small bribes cannot be in the best interests of both parties.

Bafflegab

That is what I call a poll coming out 3 weeks after their last poll,and the whole thing was a set-up on CKNW---"breaking news"

Gimmee a break,cut off a caller,stop the presses,breaking news,Mustel polls has the liberals up 2 points from their poll 3 weeks ago!

There is some hoodwinking going on.

I am not in the mood of arguing with you Luke,today, and I don`t care what the Mustel Poll says,if you believe,along with your co-workers that a suspect poll is going to change people`s mind,or demoralize the NDP voters,well good luck to you then.
[CALLING ANOTHER COMMENTER A MEDIA MONITOR IS AN AD HOMINEM ATTACK AND HAS THE EFFECT OF MARGINALIZING THE OTHER PERSON'S ARGUMENT. THIS IS NOT ALLOWED ON THIS FORUM. FOCUS ON EACH OTHER'S ARGUMENTS OR COMMENT ELSEWHERE. -MODERATOR.]

Cheers

Then I guess I'd disagree

To the extent that I think that a Crown Corporation or any enterprise which is owned by the public ought to hew to a higher standard.

I don't blame private companies for taking advantage of the tax laws - but I do think they ought to be changed.

I obviously agree about bribes and fraud and I am absolutely against the concept of private companies paying lobbyists to cater to government. But that's another matter...We've been 'supposedly' paying top dollar to attract expert professional people to the ADM and DM levels of government - these people should be paid to make hard decisions and evaluate among difficult options and should not simply provide the grease to enable the government to do business with its friends and neighbours – often to the exclusion of the public interest and at increased costs and reduced benefit as has been the case in this province for the last 8 years.

Some of that went on before, but under the CEO it has become endemic and, sadly, epidemic.

re - Tidal energy posting )x2)

I didn't mean to post twice but my earlier posting hadn't appeared after 1.5 hours so I re-posted. Next thing I know, there's 2 of them! ... - MM

michael

Just a note of information - you posted two of them - inadvertently.

The default position here is best comments so when you post an article it goes into the all comments tab initially - later, if the editors decide it deserves a gold star, they put in under the Best Comments tab too.

You can avoid the confusion by going to the bottom of any story (at the point just above where the comments start) and clicking the ALL COMMENTS option. If you do that any time you sign on (and you only have to do it once unless you sign off) you won't have the problem again.

Cheers

Size matters

Bute Inlet Project – 1,027 MW
Revelstoke Dam – 2,000 MW
Mica Dam –1,800 MW
WAC Bennett Dam – 2,800 MW

Wrong

Kimmitt: "and, if completed, more power generated than the controversial Site C dam would produce. "

But why should it matter what power it generates? What is important is the energy. Site-C produces 60% more energy than Bute Inlet.

Get your facts correct.

Grouplets

Kimmett: >> Now, a collection of groups opposed to the project are gunning to make it an election issue. <<

These grouplets are tiny and they are all interrelated and receive backing from the same sources such as the BC Hydro COPE 378 unions.

Western Wilderness does not disclose the source of its funding. Its getting about $1.4 million from certain donors and does not disclose the size of the individual donations.

They say they have 50,000 members or followers, but only 80 show up at their rally meetings!!

Why is Kimmett hiding?

Why is Kimmett hiding the fact that only 80 people show up at these meetings?

They advertised the meeting for 2 solid weeks and out of 50,000 followers, the leadership could only muster 80?

Pathetic. Could it be that the leadership has lost touch with the rank and file and expects too much for them to bend over?

Kimmett should be reporting numbers instead of editorializing.

COMMENT REMOVED.

COMMENT REMOVED FOR LEGAL CONCERNS.

-MODERATOR.

Omg, LS reincarnate

Here we go again.

DJT

Naw. Ronnie's back. I think I recognise his keen sense of humour.

Chuckle

Substance is Ronnie's - but the grammar is too good.

BC Hydro is unable to build anything competitively

You mean BC Hydro which takes 2.5 times more capital to produce the same amount of energy as the private sector should develop geothermal, charge the taxpayers and rate payers for that, throw away our monies, come up with a mediocre product, and siphon off funds to build homes for the homeless and hospitals for the sick?

Very wise. NOT!

FACTS about Run of River

BC Hydro pays only $ 8 per MWh as profit to the government while most of that power is produced by environmentally disastrous dams that have destroyed the Columbia River and Peace River basins.

Private power IPPs pay $ 27 per MWh in taxes and community benefits to the government. Half of the $ 27 is paid to the local government as property tax, while BC Hydro pays no local property taxes for 30 billion dollars of assets that it owns. IPPs pay 3 times more social benefits than BC Hydro.

A small 10 MW run of river plant pays about $ 1,400,000 a year to various levels of government, most of it to the local government. BC Hydro pays only $ 440,000 for the same amount of power to the Province, and none of it to the local government.

No IPP run-of-river project is on a salmon bearing stream, and the environmental impact is minor if any, and far less than damming, logging, mining, oil and gas, coal, real estate development, transportation, pulp and paper, pipelines. And unlike mining, oil and gas, coal, transportation and real estate – run of river technology is renewable and significantly reduces greenhouse gas emissions.

BC Hydro produces power at less than $ 6 a MWh from our gigantic heritage dams paid by BC citizens, but sells it at $ 70 (12 times the cost) to BC citizens – ripping off the BC ratepayer. It then takes huge salaries – on the average $ 100,000 per employee per year, for itself. This is 2.5 times the average private salary in the province of $ 40,000. The average salary at BCTC, a unit of BC Hydro is $ 130,000 per employee. Only a meager $ 8 of the profit is passed to the Province. And BC Hydro is a very high cost producer ($ 120 a MWh) from its own Aberfeldie run-of-river project that it just completed.

On the other hand, IPPs generate power at about $40 to $80 a MWh. Ashlu Creek IPP is selling its power to BC Hydro for $ 55 for the next 40 years (term of the BC Hydro contract). IPPs pay $ 27 a MWh to governments - mostly the local government.

BC Hydro charges the ratepayers and taxpayers $ 1.4 million per GWh in costs to produce non-green power (Site-C). This results in very high electricity prices of about $ 160. BC Hydro is unable to produce power if the project is less than 50 MW.

On the other hand, private power IPPs can produce green and clean power at $ 0.6 million per GWh - less than half the cost of BC Hydro. Private power producers can produce power from projects as small as 5 MW by using local talent and labour.

The cost saving is passed on to the consumer when large number of IPPs compete for the few power purchase contracts offered by BC Hydro. BC Hydro offers on the average only 3 power purchase agreements a year. Without a power purchase agreement, no IPP run-of-river project can get built. There are 300,000 rivers and creeks in BC and only 40 IPP projects in all of BC.

I have a picture of a tidal

I have a picture of a tidal generating station on the Isle of Skye printed in 1982. The only thing in the water is a pipe which operates a bellows which inturn creates a vacuum or air pressure (depending on if the tide is ebbing or flooding) which turns the alternator. I'm sure in the last 25 years this concept has been improved upon!

Tidal Power

Van Isle, there was an article recently how the fundamentalist enviro organizations stopped a pilot tidal project in the Johnstone (?) straights.

How do you think you will get by these pseudo-environmentalist organizations that receive money from COPE 378 unions?

The Sky is Falling

Bailey writes

Bailey, can you quantify this, or is this a 1 in a billion sort of "sky is falling" kind of thing?

Lets see numbers - agreed?

Bailey writes Quote:I think

Bailey writes

Are you sure you are not making this up? Like Canada Post is not government? Like they are not subsidized?

Source please.

Dear HydroGreen

Thank you for your accounting of the comparative cashflows for BC Hydro vs. IPPs.

May I point out that since BC Hydro is a Crown Corporation, wholly owned by the government of BC, most of the transactions you describe would amount to changing pockets. It makes little sense for the province to pay itself elaborate charges for services it provides to itself.

The taxes you refer to as paid by independents are on large profits which are taken from the pockets of the actual owners of the resource and transferred to private parties. Something BC Hydro avoids, except by contract.

So by your own argument, it is much more efficient and competitive for generation to remain in public hands, if only to avoid all this costly extra bookkeeping.

RealLife

Reallife, as you say, even if Meager proves feasible, which I hope it does, the enviro-fundamentalists

[COMMENT EDITED TO REMOVE OFFENSIVE STATEMENT DIRECT AT THE REPORTER OF THIS PIECE. ATTACKING THE REPUTATION OF TYEE REPORTERS BY ANONYMOUS COMMENTERS WILL NOT BE TOLERATED. PLEASE REFRAIN FROM DOING SO OR FIND ANOTHER PLACE TO COMMENT. -MODERATOR.]

will find a way to stop the geo-thermal green energy project.

These fundamentalists want us to burn coal because they believe only they own the energy in a stream. Not the workers who provide the labour, not the engineers, not the pension funds, not the inventors of technology, not the suppliers of the materials, none of these.

Only the ultra-rightwing Raif Mair, the leftist Carole James, and "neo-progressive" Joe Foy can tell us what to do with geothermal energy.

timeline

Looking back, it seems my information re UPS vs. Canada Post is out of date. UPS has released its claim against Canada Post for what appear to be PR reasons. Here is a timeline for that action.

http://www.cupw.ca/index.cfm/ci_id/9425/la_id/1.htm

Gordon Campbell.......

Has no mandate to sell our resources to private firms,this one issue will cost Campbell the election.

Internal BC Liberal polls has Campbell polling in the TOILET BOWL.Campbell will be stopped.PERIOD

http:billtieleman.blogspot.com/2009/02/bc-liberals-internal-polling-shows-them.html

[AD HOMINEM COMMENT DIRECTED AT FELLOW COMMENTER REMOVED. -MODERATOR.]

Enjoy the read.

Dear Bailey - good to be

Dear Bailey - good to be talking to you

Please elaborate. This is a bit too obscure. What transactions? All I see is that 4 million ratepayers are subsidizing 5,000 union activists and members at BC Hydro with salaries that are 2.5 times their own ratepayer salaries. On top of that, it was the ratepayers who paid for the assets in the first place, and not the leeching employees of BC Hydro.

WRONG

a) there are no "large profits". IPPs can only build with a BC Hydro EPA. For each EPA contract (average 3 awarded a year) there are SIX (6) times as many IPPs bidding competitively against a SINGLE MONOPOLY BUYER.

Which law of economics are you referring to when you say "large profits"?

WRONG again:

b) The resource consists of the stream energy, the labour put into its realization, the technology, the capital (mostly pension money), the equity, the knowhow, the management, the transmission line, the generators, etc.

That is why the IPP pays water license fees and property taxes (a lot more than BC Hydro pays).

Now to say that 100% of the value is just in the stream shows a certain lack of understanding of economic science. If so, then go try to capture the energy in any of our 300,000 streams.

WRONG again:

c) When there is waste, somebody loses. You conveniently forgot to account for the waste - you only accounted the transfer of monies.

BC Hydro is producing the same thing as IPPs, but at 2 to 3 times the cost of a competitive industry. This wastage is subsidized by the ratepayers and taxpayers. We get poorer in the process while our capital is drained away from hospitals and schools, while the beneficiaries of this waste, the 5000 employees, get immensely rich.

I don't think economic science is one of the strengths of the public-ownership crowds.

BC Hydro is a scam

The cost saving is passed on to the consumer when large number of IPPs compete for the few power purchase contracts offered by BC Hydro. BC Hydro offers on the average only 3 power purchase agreements a year. Without a power purchase agreement, no IPP run-of-river project can get built. There are 300,000 rivers and creeks in BC and only 40 IPP projects in all of BC.

While a run-of-river plant is producing energy, BC Hydro fills up its gigantic dams, so that the energy production can be shifted to the winter. Run of river complements BC Hydro's mega-dams very nicely. Energy is stored behind BC Hydro dams, and many IPPs also have lakes for storage for the winter.

It is not possible to export power to California or the US because without the authorization of BC Hydro. And BC Hydro demands a cut of 25% to 50% of the sales without contributing anything to the trade.

WOW

[PERSONAL COMMENT DIRECTED AT ANOTHER COMMENTOR REMOVED. -MODERATOR.]

Perhaps there was a big hiring done for the up-coming election.

It might be more effective to knock on doors and ask the people what they are upset about rather than try to manipulate.

I guess it is too late to ask the people,the Campbell Liberals have all but ignored the people and stomped on them from every part of the province. MAY 12 is a coming,and not to soon!

Quarry Bay

You are unable to argue against any of the points raised about BC Hydra scamming the ratepayers, so you resort to ad hominem and personal attacks.

[PERSONAL SNIPE REMOVED. -MODERATOR.]

Bailey

HAHAHA - I knew there was something fishy about your claim.

Now please produce an analysis of the chances that a tiny foreign company sues a mega-government for interfering with trade.

Or is this also out of date?

I can argue......

My face off, BC Hydro is a tool of the Provincial goverment, BC hydro has been put in a terrible position.

BC Hydro has been played up as the villian to deflect from the provincial goverment demands.
This is a Goverment problem,not a BC Hydro problem.

BC Hydro was BANNED by law(Campbell`s LAW) to produce any new power.

Don`t bother telling me about upgrades at MICA or REvelstoke, or the MYthical site c

Why would a goverment write an act,banning the best power company in the world from producing new power?

BC hydro can produce power cheaper than any run of river project(the technology is simple)

Only a foolish goverment or Gordon Campbell would give the massive cash flow away,especially during this depression.

Nobody gave Campbell a mandate to sell our rivers.(lets have a referendum)

Nobody told the public the rivers were even for sale until after the fact.

There is nothing to argue here,BC Hydro isn`t the villian,Gordon Campbell has made a foolish mistake,financialy and enviromentaly.

If we are going to run power lines like a spider web all over the province then,so be it!

Buts let do it so the money flows to the people,for schools and health care or whatever.

Forestry jobs and mining jobs are gone,they are not coming back for a decade.

Please don`t tell me about all the employment IPPPs will provide,the employment will be there under BC Hydro!

No economist in the world worth his salt that anylses Run of River would see it any other way.

OUR water resources belong to the people,profits generated from the People`s rivers should flow to the public not to private out of country pockets of shareholders.

There is no argument,period.

Quarry Bay [OFFENSIVE COMMENT REMOVED. -MODERATOR.]

Lets deconstruct the mythology here:

WRONG - BC Hydro is building a run of river project called Aberfeldie on the Bull River.

BC Hydro wants to spend $8 billion of taxpayer money to build Site C dam, destroying 83 kilometers of Peace River valley.

WRONG - BC Hydro cost of generation at Aberfeldie is $120 a MWh. At Site C is $160. IPPs produce power between $40 to $80 a MWh.

Please provide source for your claim that cost of power for BC Hydro's Aberfeldie is less than IPPs.

SILLY - then lets have a referendum for real estate development, oil and gas, mining, retail shopping centers, skiing business, tourism, etc.

What you want is socialism. Maybe you can move to North Korea or Iran?

DUHHHH

When BC Hydro spends $9 billion of people's money to build something that generates the same power as $3 billion of private capital (no tax on the people) - then money is TAKEN AWAY from hospitals and schools and from productive activity.

Have you tried the math? You don't make sense. The wastage is phenomenal.

WRONG - study economics

If BC Hydro produces the same goods at ABOVE market prices, then BC Hydro is DESTROYING jobs!

IPPs can produce power at below market prices, and they create jobs.

You haven't produced a single number to backup your [EDITED] claims [EDITED. -MODERATOR.]

Water power resource is only 5% of the equation. The rest is capital, technology, labour, knowhow, management, etc. your economics is lacking.

BC Hydro makes huge profits by stealing from ratepayers, but uses it all up on its own salaries and wastage. IPPs on the other hand produce power competitevely, waste nothing, and take competitive market level salaries. There is no huge profit for IPPs because BC Hydro receives 6 times more offers than it wants. The contracts are only awarded to the lowest price offers. And BC Hydro is a monopoly and IPPs are extremely competitive. And it is not possible to build an IPP without a BC Hydro contract.

Hydrogreen

"You haven't produced a single number to backup your silly claims - but you make an even sillier claim?" Neither have you and some of your sources are suspect.

Quarry Bay [EDITED. -MODERATOR.]

BC Hydro generates power from our dams that we paid for at $6 a MWh.

Then it sells that to the rate payer for $70. Then pays the province $8.

Do the math. There is $54 left after costs and taxes. And this profit vanishes among the army of 5,000 unionized employees.

And you call this "the best power company in the world"?

Price of power should be $14 or $16 not $70. Any wasteful business that runs like this will be bankrupt in a matter of days as it cant compete in the market.

Pathetic.

Skywalker

Please go to the post of 2 hours ago titled "Facts of run of river".

Lots of numbers there for you (if you have had economics and science in school).

Numbers for the enviro fanatics

BC Hydro pays only $ 8 per MWh as profit to the government while most of that power is produced by environmentally disastrous dams that have destroyed the Columbia River and Peace River basins.

Private power IPPs pay $ 27 per MWh in taxes and community benefits to the government. Half of the $ 27 is paid to the local government as property tax, while BC Hydro pays no local property taxes for 30 billion dollars of assets that it owns. IPPs pay 3 times more social benefits than BC Hydro.

A small 10 MW run of river plant pays about $ 1,400,000 a year to various levels of government, most of it to the local government. BC Hydro pays only $ 440,000 for the same amount of power to the Province, and none of it to the local government.

No IPP run-of-river project is on a salmon bearing stream, and the environmental impact is minor if any, and far less than damming, logging, mining, oil and gas, coal, real estate development, transportation, pulp and paper, pipelines. And unlike mining, oil and gas, coal, transportation and real estate – run of river technology is renewable and significantly reduces greenhouse gas emissions.

BC Hydro produces power at less than $ 6 a MWh from our gigantic heritage dams paid by BC citizens, but sells it at $ 70 (12 times the cost) to BC citizens – ripping off the BC ratepayer. It then takes huge salaries – on the average $ 100,000 per employee per year, for itself. This is 2.5 times the average private salary in the province of $ 40,000. The average salary at BCTC, a unit of BC Hydro is $ 130,000 per employee. Only a meager $ 8 of the profit is passed to the Province. And BC Hydro is a very high cost producer ($ 120 a MWh) from its own Aberfeldie run-of-river project that it just completed.

On the other hand, IPPs generate power at about $40 to $80 a MWh. Ashlu Creek IPP is selling its power to BC Hydro for $ 55 for the next 40 years (term of the BC Hydro contract). IPPs pay $ 27 a MWh to governments - mostly the local government.

BC Hydro charges the ratepayers and taxpayers $ 1.4 million per GWh in costs to produce non-green power (Site-C). This results in very high electricity prices of about $ 160. BC Hydro is unable to produce power if the project is less than 50 MW.

On the other hand, private power IPPs can produce green and clean power at $ 0.6 million per GWh - less than half the cost of BC Hydro. Private power producers can produce power from projects as small as 5 MW by using local talent and labour.

The cost saving is passed on to the consumer when large number of IPPs compete for the few power purchase contracts offered by BC Hydro. BC Hydro offers on the average only 3 power purchase agreements a year. Without a power purchase agreement, no IPP run-of-river project can get built. There are 300,000 rivers and creeks in BC and only 40 IPP projects in all of BC.

More numbers for the enviro fanatics

While a run-of-river plant is producing energy, BC Hydro fills up its gigantic dams, so that the energy production can be shifted to the winter. Run of river complements BC Hydro's mega-dams very nicely. Energy is stored behind BC Hydro dams, and many IPPs also have lakes for storage for the winter.

It is not possible to export power to California or the US because without the authorization of BC Hydro. And BC Hydro demands a cut of 25% to 50% of the sales without contributing anything to the trade.

Get your facts straight, HydroGreen

The recent public meetings regarding Plutonic's (and GE's) massive 3.5 billion ROR project for Bute Inlet:

In Powell River: filled to capacity, most expressed serious concerns or were in opposition to project.

In Campbell River: Over 400 people in attendance - standing room only. Most expressed serious concern or were in opposition to project.

lynn

Why am I always sceptical of people who write :

HAHAHA and DUHHHH

[SNIDE COMMENT DIRECTED AT ANOTHER COMMENTOR REMOVED]]

Q: And who is "the green choice" (and main financial backer) that Plutonic chose to partner with in this 4 billion dollar mega-project?

A: General Electric.

Q: What corporation is responsible for the largest number of 'Super-Fund' toxic sites in the US??

A: General Electric

Q: Why was The Super-Fund law created?

A: The Superfund law was created to protect people, families, communities and others from heavily contaminated toxic waste sites that have been abandoned.

[SNIDE COMMENT DIRECTED AT ANOTHER COMMENTOR REMOVED]]

[...AND HERE...]

You have posted 17 comments under this story(so far),besides being rude,deceptive,inaccurate, you have not supplied even ......

ONE Link to any of your erronious claims(unfounded,for the illiterate readers sake)

By repeating the same garbage over and over again doesn`t make it true,by yelling and screaming and being insultive doesn`t make it true.
Private power dams have been discussed to death on this site,the TYEE reader is the most informed of any reader in the world on this subject.
So you think you can come here and chirp away and demand people to listen to you,I am afraid to say you are sadly mistaken.

Claims need to be backed up with links to sources.

This is an election issue,wholesale sell out of the PEOPLE`S POWER the people`s rivers will cost Gordon Campbell the election,so Mr. Plutonic,you can cool your heels,when the NDP win the election there will be a moratorium on PRIVATE(for big profit)power.
And all your yelling and name calling and foot stomping won`t change that.

[...AND HERE. -MODERATOR.]

Quarry bay

hi bob the cat

I think it's duh law in physics. :-)

HydroGreen

The information I gave was correct. I was unaware that the case was in abeyance, apparently pending appeals on the rulings.

UPS sued Canada Post, a crown corporation of Canada, for delivering mail in Canada.

The answer to your question is in the link:

"*On July 8, 2005 - Ontario Superior Court Justice Sarah Pepall dismissed the constitutional challenge to NAFTA investment rules launched by the CUPW and Council, thereby upholding the unprecedented rights given to corporations under NAFTA."

does this hydro green man

work for " The Shah"?

Can someone make the bad man go away? People that go HAHAHA are really scary.

Lynn

Thank you

very much

Quarry bay

These letter writers.....

put it into terms far better than I can.

Please read the well written words about private(run of river)power

http://www2.canada.com/burnabynow/news/community/story.html?id=530cf8c2-865d-4d33-9dbd-6a84ee8b1d89

And this other writer has a way with words,I wish I could speak as clearly.

http://www2.canada.com/burnabynow/news/community/story.html?id=ea3379d6-d965-4eb3-bo83-9740cc33d7ac

I will try my links again.....

http://www2.canada.com/burnabynow/news/community/story.html?id=530cf8c2-8e5d-4d33-9dbd-6a84ee8b1d89

And another great.......

Writer

http://www2.canada.com/burnabynow/news/community/story.html?id=ea3379d6-d965-4eb3-b083-9740cc33d7ac

great read

You crack me up.........

[OFFENSIVE COMMENTS REMOVED. -MODERATOR.]

very scary B.C. liberal cold

"And this other writer has a way with words,I wish I could speak as clearly."

You are getting pretty good at it quarry.

Will he come back? I met Gordos wife and I`m still scared. Fraidy cat I guess. Scaredie cat.
Have a good weekend.

bob

Quarry Bay

And which one is the erroneous claim?

You have a different number? Then produce it.

All my numbers have sources.

[OFFENSIVE COMMENTS REMOVED. AGAIN. -MODERATOR.]

Bailey

You mean that UPS wants to deliver mail instead?

Its not that simple Bailey. Go and read the stuff.

[AFTER CHALLENGING ANOTHER COMMENTER ON A FACT ABOUT NAFTA THAT WAS GERMAINE TO THIS THREAD, YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO TELL THAT COMMENTER HIS COMMENTS ARE OFF TOPIC. THIS IS HIGHLY DISRESPECTFUL AND WILL NOT BE TOLERATED ON THIS SITE. -MODERATOR.]

Lynn

very much

Quarry bay

Yes indeed thanks for the groupthink. Lets gang up cause I am out of argument.

frank2

WRONG

Ashlu Creek is selling power for 40 years to BC Hydro at $55 a MWh. That is below the price consumers pay at $70.

So where is the giveaway?

And the costs will be certainly HIGHER if BC Hydro builds these facilities. In fact 1.5 to 2.5 times HIGHER, if BC Hydro builds them, and siphons away public money to pay its own huge salaries. This money should be used to build schools and hospitals and roads. The government should not be in the business of producing and selling and trading goods, because the government is too dumb to do it competitively. All it does is to risk other people's money (read the public) and squanders it, like it did with the fast ferries.

WRONG again.

The water resource rights expires after 20 to 40 years. Perpetuity is part of the imagination only. The government may not renew it.

Quarry

Your links did not work and are broken.

And then you want the government to run everything in sight and with people like you in charge?

Give me a break!

Fast ferries anyone?

Aberfeldie run of river anyone?

Cheakamus water stealing anyone?

$6 electricity sold to ratepayers at $70 anyone?

Bob Elton CEO of BC Hydro $535,000 salary on ratepayers back, anyone?

[OFFENSIVE COMMENT REMOVED. -MODERATOR.]

On Bullsh*t

HydroGreen: your flurry of comments reminded me of the book, "On Bullsh*t" by Harry G. Frankfurt. He said about political spin doctors;
"They don't care about the truth, they care about a certain impression in the mind of the people they are addressing.
They are engaged in the enterprise of manipulating opinion, they are not engaged in reporting the facts."
You give no sources for your opinions nor do you substantiate your opinions with any logic. You just let them flow like a free flowing river. However the river doesn't have the fallout that your comments produce.

Very funny!

HydroGreen
Ashlu Creek is selling power for 40 years to BC Hydro at $55 a MWh. That is below the price consumers pay at $70.

So where is the giveaway?

You think we're all stupid? Where has BC Hydro ever charged $70 per kwh?

And even funnier!

Luke Skywalker
Abbott & Costello, Moe & Curly (forget Larry), Dumb and Dumber... :D

'Cause of you guys, I love this site!

Luke, polite language fails in an attempt to tell you just how funny it is that you would mention this.

HydroGreen: Any sources?

HydroGreen
Private power IPPs pay $ 27 per MWh in taxes and community benefits to the government. Half of the $ 27 is paid to the local government as property tax, while BC Hydro pays no local property taxes for 30 billion dollars of assets that it owns. IPPs pay 3 times more social benefits than BC Hydro.

A small 10 MW run of river plant pays about $ 1,400,000 a year to various levels of government, most of it to the local government. BC Hydro pays only $ 440,000 for the same amount of power to the Province, and none of it to the local government.

These are truly remarkable figures. Is there any source?

LSWalker

Ergo, why is it OK for Manitoba Hydro, under New Democrat Premier Gary Doer, to engage in private power IPP's while it is NOT OK in BC, under your hated neo-con government???

If you can answer "in a rational, reasonable, common sense manner" why the present government in BC, which swore it would NEVER run a deficit, is in fact running one...........?

[COMMENT REMOVED. -MODERATOR.]

your quote

"The water resource rights expire after 20 to 40 years.Perpetuity is part of the imagination only.The goverment may not renew it."

May not renew it,what does that mean? Imagination and may are not contract words,they do not appear on power buying contracts,anywhere.

Nafta,a big problem with AMERICAN compannies buying resources is......because of Nafta,there is no way to turn off the deal.

You talk about the CEO of BC Hydro making a half million a year,well,the CEO of plutonic when all is said and done will be making tens of millions per year.

Lastly,the big giveaway to your political stripe is you keep mentioning "Fast Ferries" Isn`t it about time you mentioned the "Doom and Gloom of the 90s"

Straw man arguments meant to inflame readers,(not that many are reading your rants)

Sorry,who-ever you are, fast-ferries won`t work this time,the 90s won`t work,the scary Carole James(bogey woman) won`t work.

This time the Campbell Liberals are going to have to run on their record and it is DISMAL,to say the least.

So take you Plutonic "Kool-aid" go to Guyana and chill out.You can re-build your party for the 2013 election.

Quarry bay

The still eye at the centre of the storm

Dear HydroGreen;

Thank you again for painting us such a clear picture of the view from the office windows.

You know, one of the few constant elements in the new corporate governance paradigm you seem to represent is the fact that the facts are so very elastic. You are promoting a particular vision of the world, and like any true believer, you are willing to manipulate the story in any way necessary to gain converts.

Numbers, even your numbers, are not very trustworthy facts. Accountants make them say whatever they want. I even saw somebody try to account the possibility of future profit as a current asset once. Others will deny the possibility of obvious future costs to make a project look cheaper than it really would be.

Intentions are more reliable indicators, interests will show you where to expect falsity. It's even true that people will believe things fervently that they know for certain are not true, if their interests demand it.

The arguments you are getting here, and your way or responding to them are revealing of your beliefs. Government bad, corporations good. Unfortunately, the experiences of the last century or so don't support your wishful beliefs.

All these people are telling you that they need their rivers. They expect their children to need them even more, and they don't trust you or your IPPs with that need. They see your need as being financial, exclusively financial, and they're convinced that if you ever get your hands on their rivers, it's only a matter of time till they can kiss them goodbye.

They remember what's happened to the oceans after the fish companies got control of the Ministry that regulated them. They see what's happening to the forests in the hands of logging interests.

Now the playing field has changed. NAFTA has given unprecedented power to those limited companies, and worse, scotched any ability public regulators might have had to prevent whatever damage might be profitable this quarter, or next.

If, as seems at least possible, those new rules are the whole purpose behind these projects and proposals, then that is a very important fact. Much more important than any set of numbers put forward by anyone on either side.

We have recently lived through the greatest bank robbery in history, one committed by bankers themselves. How can you expect anybody to believe you could be trusted with something like a river, which is much, much more important than any fictional financial ideas, because living creatures, the living earth herself need them to support life itself.

You ask too much, sir. Your story is too thin, too unlikely. It goes against all our experience. We don't believe you.

Can you blame us?

Just the opinion of the public...

http://www.rocksandwater.ca/interviews/bc-hydro-privitization-a-bust-for-british-columbians/

Here is that link.....

http://www.rocksandwater.ca/interviews/bc-hydro-privatization-a-bust-for-british-columbians/

BC Hydro paid to the province......

BC Hydro paid since 1994 8.8 billion dollars to the province for hospitals and schools.

If it ain`t broke don`t fix it!

How much are the IPPs going to pay the province.....

A few grand a year, whoop dee doo!

Ipps can make money money building infrastructure for the province,it is done all the time.Things can get built without ceding ownership.

I have noticed one thing on this thread,none of the private profit power promoters have supplied any links to back up their false claims,empty rederick or an opinion piece/no facts/no data/just ideology.
I of course have supplied links.Here is another link about the 8.8 billion dollars.

http://www.citizensforpublicpower.ca/issues/bc_hydro

Put up or be quiet(with respect)

MYTHOLOGY

reallife
BC Hydro is a bloated bureaucracy that is too inefficient to economically develop small projects.

This is an opinion, not a fact, or even a factoid. I happen to think it's just a myth put forward to justify IPPs.

hydrogreen

Where did this guy come from WOW!! He must have just got hired at one of the big Pirate Power producers - who else would have the time to dig up obscure data and deliberately misrepresent it, in so much detail, so many times.

Or as other callers have alluded he is maybe Liberal party staffer or clone thereof Luke Skywalker in another incarnation. He is so prolific maybe he is several people.

What I would like him to tell us is what is the contracted rate for all signed Pirate Power contracts and what info does he have on the actual or estimated cost of these projects. We are told this is proprietary info but given that the current and past ministers signing the contracts barely got through high school, and are accepting huge bribes in the form of campaign donations, we all can be a bit suspicious. John Calvert and other media have quoted recent signings at 9 cents a kwh going to 12 over a few years. Is this wrong? Can Mr Green Hydro produce all the insider data from current signings.In fact can he give us a link to the text of all the contracts.

BC Hydro can hire Ledcor or SNC Lavelin or Bechtel to build these projects just as General Electric does for theirs. Has Hydro forgotten how to tender? Does the giant American Pirate Power favorite General Electric have better engineers than SNC Lavelin?

Last I looked BC Government 30 year bonds were trading on the stock exchange at 4%. We are told that Pirate Power is being asked for a 15% rate of return from Wall Street hedge funds. That would make the project cost per Kwh three times what BCHydro would pay. Does mr green have some insider data that is different?

Current cost of nuclear is 1.85 cents a kwh and projected gen 3.5 nuclear is 2 cents. SInce all the Pirate Power comes on line in the late spring when BCHydro doesn't need it, we are told it is BCHydro that must pay the difference as much as 10 cents a kwh. Can Mr Green release all the insider data to the contrary.

Hydrogreen

So typical of a Tyee subscriber.

Don't be insulting.

And...

There are 300,000 rivers and creeks in BC and only 40 IPP projects in all of BC.

And one of them is Stone Creek in West Van where I grew up, with a mean flow of less than 1 GPM in summer and probably 5 in winter, except for a few hours after a rain.

I recognize spin when I see it. Let's just stick to facts, shall we? You're not doing too badly on those, except when you diverge into personal opinion, which is every second sentence.

Thank you Lynn, your analogy

Thank you Lynn, your analogy of a house mortgage is perfect.
The real issue here is that if we're not careful, we'll be no better off than Mexico, Columbia, Brazil, or any other South American country the US has set it's hands on. They'll use our own ignorance and naivety against us to make Canada their own personl bank account and future gated community, just ask the Native peoples how it feels.
But I wouldn't cross out military intervention either. I mean we could have W.M.D.'s hidden away in our trailer parks. And we all know there are terrorists everywhere in Canada, I've seen them occasionally hugging in the forests of Canada.

hydrogreen

A assume you're a member of the Campbell Front Group 'BC Citizens for Green Energy'.

I key part of their whole schtick is that reference to BC Hydro being nothing but a sinecure for union members. That and the nonsense about Hydro’s customers paying too much for old hydro power – even my good friend luke skywalker wouldn’t try that gambit.

DO you get the talking points from the Premier's Office directly or is there a go-between?

Your posts have a striking similarity to the ones of a certain Rachel11 who comments in Prince George. It's almost too much of a conicidence to be an accident.

I guess Jessica and Co. have all the boys and girls on message..

Why is that?

http://www.bclocalnews.com/bc_north/pgfreepress/opinion/letters/39516299.html

erratum

should be 'I' assume above here.

TMTdorame

A great comment, TMTdorame..and yes, there is a very "undeclared"... and covert war against Canada and our natural resources.

(Full credit to the mortgage analogy goes to John Calvert, I'm afraid...I put it in quotes....I just thought it was worth repeating....but I agree it is both a perfect and apt analogy.)

Cheers, lynn