The Prince George paper had

The Prince George paper had a good article on Ms.Taylor's tax. I suggest they are ready to tar and feather her if she showed up. Here in the little town of Victoria the price of fuel has risen almost 20 cents a gallon including the latest grab by the CRD, in about a month. We can limit somewhat our local driving, but our family member close by with a small farm uses three 3/4 ton trucks, a one ton and a 2 ton truck. I don't think the oil companies nor Ms. Taylor is a fan there. If he raises his prices for produce tye customers can tnak the oil companies and the soon to leave government Ms. Taylor .

The Heartland really doesn't count as far as Gordo's gang is concerned on most occassions. Let's kick the heartland folks a few more time says Gordo with his latest vision

if what!

Yes, northern/interior people insulate their homes more. I have between R-19 and R-30 in my walls, and R60 in my ceiling. It cost me good money to do that to my home, every penny out of my pocket.

Yes, we already turn the thermostat down - 16-19 when we are awake at home, and 14 at night and when we are out for the day. What do you have your thermostat set at, Carole? And how many square feet of home do you heat/cool in how many residences? Face it Carole, you don't deserve an easier life or more creature comforts than anyone else. If you are serious about the environment, you'll lead by example - turn your thermostat down and don't require more than 1500 total square feet for yourself and your husband to live in/heat. That's all you need.

Ever scrape a frosty windshield at -30 or -40? You certainly cannot drive a car until it has warmed up at high RPMs for at least 20 minutes in those temperatures: the frost from your breath makes it impossible to see. So much for the traffic savings, by not being on the Port Mann Bridge. If they would give me a public trasportation option, I would take it, and be happy to save the gasoline cash and wear and tear on my vehicle. Winter cars break down. The sand/bolders they put on the highway cracks both mine and my wife's windshields every other year - that's and average of $250 deductible. Wiper-blades are annual costs - and they aren't the cheap ones either! Snow tires go on in early October and come off in the middle to end of April. Salt and rock chips tear the paint off of a vehicle faster than it can be repaired.

Oh yeah... energy/transportation costs are so similar! Give me a break! Oh yeah, Carole, I forgot, Gordy decided to put the screws to the Interior and the North years ago and you are just here to finish the job. Business as usual for you and your international buddies.

Mayor sells soap

It's hard to agree with the Mayor of Fort Nelson - having spent time in southern Africa it's plain that people there have figured out how to run cheap vehicles (bakkies) that carry produce, a family and the family goat over the worst roads imaginable in any weather with 1.0 - 1.6 litre four-bangers. 16-passenger tourist vehicles carrying 3 tonnes of people and their crap utilize Land Rovers with 2.5 litre turbodiesels and got about 24 mpg in the bush.

The wife tells similar stories of her time in Peru, Columbia and Bolivian in the early 1980s.

Suckahs up North are the same kind of victims of Detroit marketing bumph that we are down here. Nobody's immune, including the mayor of Fort Nelson. Everybody wants a CD player and a coffeecup holder in their leather interior.

Let the price of gas be $10 a gallon - it's closer to the true cost.

City Person....

.......why should the 'North' subsidize SkyTrain and SkyTrain fares? Next time you take a bus pay the full fare!

Carbon tax = SkyTrain tax!

we miss the point again

This carbon tax is example of the neocons in Victoria slipping a con past we the hapless taxpayer. Ms Taylor's mother would have had to wash her mouth out with soap for telling so many fibs (aka spin) on the subject.

The real point behind the carbon tax is like the sellouts of bc ferries, bc rail, bc hydro, a really good way to give Liberal party corporate benefactors another multi billion payback for the hundreds of millions sent Gordo's way as campaign donations.

http://billtieleman.blogspot.com/2008/02/bc-liberals-carbon-tax-is-really-gas.html

Almost all carbon tax is paid by we the taxpayer, two thirds of the benefits accrue to Campbells corporate benefactors.

B.C.s Second Class Citizens

Gordon Campbell and the Liberals could care less about northern and rural areas because there aren’t enough votes in these areas to count. Our smaller and rural school districts are getting kicked in the teeth by a funding system which favours larger districts, our road maintenance is a bad joke, and our medical services are so dysfunctional that when an RCMP officer is posted here, he or she is lucky to find a local doctor to take them. In all the services that matter, British Columbians in rural and northern areas have become second class citizens.

The liberals are nothing more than a Lower Mainland centric party because that’s where the votes are, and as the Olympic spending demonstrates, that’s where the Liberals spend most of our tax money. They ignore the fact that B.C. still derives most of that tax money from resources which come from remote areas. That’s why Campbell’s pushing so hard for the STV which will reduce the political clout of rural areas even more.

Someone should remind Gordon Campbell and his party that good medical care, vibrant public schooling, and good roads are gifts we give to ourselves to make our lives better. They are not cost centres to be whittled down and funded on a per capita basis. Funding in that manner will always favour larger cities because they are able to make economies of scale unavailable to smaller towns and rural areas. The measure for these public services should be that every British Columbian receives the same level of service. They should receive the same level of service because they are people and not the ciphers that per capita funding reduces them to.

But it’s unlikely that Gordon Campbell will change his mind since he always ignores any criticism which doesn’t conform to his ideas; no matter what the consequences for other people are. After all, he’s not the one receiving sub standard medical care, or driving on poorly maintained roads, or sending his children to schools which don’t have enough services to allow them to excel.

Why should he, or the Liberals, care? There just aren’t enough votes in rural and northern areas to matter to them.

Russ Searle

This is definitely part of

This is definitely part of the planned rural depopulation campaign waiting for Mexican workers in camps, to become "more efficient and competitive", so the multinational mafia can take more out of the country.

Forced urbanization is part of the masterplan for stripping the most people of any chance and degree of self sufficiency, by jamming them into mega cities, where they're forced to buy every mouthful and breath.

The GDP ueber alles!

Big business will love this tax, as it will give them the opportunity to jack prices up, claiming and blaming the tax.

We go to Williams Lake twice a month to do our shopping, etc. and at the official figure of approx. .50 cents per km. it is costing us about $100. per trip.

People who commute 100 km each way are paying about $100. per day, without realizing it. Then they're wondering why they're broke and deep in debt?

But it also jacks up the GDP, so everything is A-OK in the warped heads of economists and the Reform Party governments across Canada.

In any case, it is a hell of a difference commuting 100 km each way in South Africa and Northern BC.

When I was teaching nightschool in the early 80s, driving 55 km home in the middle of the night, with -37C and a blizzard outside, on deserted roads and no houses nearby, was pretty scary sometimes. Going off the road, or getting stuck, could have been curtains.

Ed Deak.

City Person

How in the world is it reasonable to expect everyone with a less fuel efficient mode of transportation to now go out and buy a prius or smart car. They are expected to come up with great wads of cash and still pay the carbon tax and the revenue neutral component of the refund won't buy you a tire for one. It is bordering on the insane to suggest that at $1.28 a litre that people are already not doing everything they can to avoid paying the higher fuel costs. What this issue is about is the regional disparity in the effort being made. If you don't have transit available, if you don't have your bank account flush with cash to go and buy a new smart car, if the smaller doesn't work for your family or if it just does not run well in the snow and deep cold, what good is it to give us a whole bunch of environmental pie in the sky stuff about options.

All these transit pampered folks in Vancouver should live off the resources south of Hope and see just hoe long they would last in the dark. City Person, your preaching is turning me into a Northern BC separatist.

house sizes and taxes

City person says: "Want a solution? Tax the home on floor area divided by the number of people living in it. That is how it is done in Japan. You don't see three people living in a 4,000 square foot house because it would be unfordable. It leads to a much more efficient use of land."
I couldn't agree more. In fact, I have advocated for similar tax structures many times.

RE: cars and trucks: The answer isn't imports, it is getting N.A. cars/trucks to perform. It is mandating the auto-makers to do what is required. There are a great number of alternatives (electric and compressed air and good public transit) that are more earth friendly than gasoline and diesel cars. If every car and house roof had solar panels and every hydro pole had small wind turbines... If we began now, think of where we'd be in 10 years.

People Have Choices - Using Less Fuel Saves Money

People always have options to save fuel and money. If people take easy steps to cut back on their energy use, they can save far more money than they will be paying for the carbon tax. As well, in most communities the money used to buy fuel heads out of the community. By using less fuel, more money stays in the local economy

There are a million ways to do this. Some include:
- Keep your tires inflated
- Don't idle
- Keep your car tuned up.
- Get a small car
- Drive less. Many trips are unneeded or can be combined with other trips
- Get to know your neighbours. Drive with them to shopping or on errands
- Insulate your house
- Turn off lights

we have no choices

City Person
Some very good observations you make here.
I would love nothing more than being able to purchase a KIA work truck as you suggest; however none are available in BC.
I am seriously considering buying from a local dealer who imports 15 year old vehicles from Japan, It is amazing the versatility and economy they could squeeze out of a truck with only 660 CC!
Unfortunately our wise government will not allow importation of used vehicles newer than 15 years old!
Again unfortunately Nissan Honda etc. seem to think they have to make their new trucks look and act like the monsters that US manufacturers produce.
Even the relative small (and outdated) Ford Ranger cannot be purchased with an economy gear ratio anymore!
So I have the choice of large, clumsy trucks or take a chance on a 15+ year old used one.

just like alive

I would also like a truck like that, but the KIA dealers don't offer them. Even if they did, Many can't afford $400/month payments + the increase in insurance to save $500 to $1000 worth of fuel. Further, if I could, I'd like to support Canadian auto workers.

Work Trucks

The point I was making is that real work trucks are available in just about any place in the world except here. Government has to tax the monsters off the road, like most of the world has, to get them into the dealers.

Hybrids are a total dead end because they are not worth 1) the extra cost of having two sets of machinery, and 2) the extra CO2 to make that extra set of machinery.

Nor do you have to spend the farm to get a fuel efficient vehicle. My Fit cost $16,000 and had a $1000 ecoRebate, and if you bought the same car now, you would get the PST rebated.

Regarding Smart cars. They are dumb cars. They cost too much for what they are.

And why is that? Well, it is because people but them and they make tons of money on them.If they were taxed off the road, like they are in most of the world, you could be sure Toyota and Nissan would not be selling V-8 monsters here.

It all boils down to legislation that people can live with. A good example was the Clean Air Act in the USA and the NHSTA laws that made cars much safer. Industry said they could never meet these rules and make a profit. Guess what? They did and I don't think people want to go back to leaded gasoline and cars without basic safety built in.

REGION OR CLASS

I was interested to read the comments by Marc Jaccard, and then the responses that followed.

Jaccard tried to focus on equity in terms of class, regardless of location. Most other commenters simply focused on location and region, and claimed to find great everything worth knowing by looking at the issue through that lens. No wonder the left has trouble getting the digits out.

Gas prices

I don't understand Carole's claim about southerners paying less for gas. Gas in Prince George has been sitting at 1.27 all week, while it seems Vancouver is at 1.23. I wouldn't mind paying the carbon tax if i knew a fair amount of government revenue returned to the region. Unfortunately, northern/heartland econonies are treated as cash cows...ones that are taken out back with a shotgun as soon as the milk runs dry.

Carbon Tax Revenue Neutral not true

When a transport truck goes to fill with diesel to transport goods to the store, the extra cost of the fuel is added to the cost of transportation.

That shows up in the way of a cost increase on the shelf.

That cost increase we get to pay, we go to the cash register with our more expensive goods and we now get to pay the 7% PST on those goods.

If something cost me $1 yesterday and I end up paying $1.10 for the same item today, I now pay an extra 1 cent in tax.

Don't let them kid you, this is a tax grab.

Hey Budd

"No wonder the left has trouble getting the digits out." I have heard just as many in the right complain about this tax grab as those on the left. You have to be either a rabid green "anything that prices gas out of the realm of anyone is good" type of folks or you have to be a loyal liberal who thinks "anything our folks do in Victoria must be good for us". Whose got the digits firmly placed?

They only way to face the reality of this issue is to look at all the costs that will rise because of it and recognize that the increases depend on where you live. The other issue of class is irrelevant. Sure if I am filthy rich I don't care how much the price of oil goes up. I can pay. I can even write a check for a hybrid or a smart car or a new fuel efficient Civic. If I am poor well then it is even worse. Can't just write a check, can't just add insulation to the house and can't turn down the thermostat when it is -20 outside, transit starts a mile down the road if I have it al all.

SharingisGood

No argument there. And I won't make a sore spot redder by pointing out that most of the North and Interior who are suffering now were the ones who overruled the Commies down in the Big Smoke and elected Gordo with his "heartlands" bumpf.

That's why I say $10 a liter - in taxes - would provide for a lot of infrastructure. Or tax cuts in other areas, like income tax. Appropriate taxation is a discussion we've all had before - tax the bad things like waste, don't tax the good things like income....

And I'll have to take your word for it that small trucks carrying heavy loads don't work in the snow. That's not my experience, but I'm a part-timer. I only once carried a cubic yard of drain rock (that's 2700 lbs, friends) home 15 years ago in my '86 Toyota 1/2 ton and trailer. All the excavation fill I carried out a yard at a time was a lot lighter, not to mention all those fancy cast-iron radiators I got out of a home being demolished in Oak Bay.

But you have to admit, you're unusual. Only putting on 5000 km a year in a sipper of a big diesel while living up North? I know a contractor down here who puts that much on every month carrying around his cell phone and coffee cup. His bed's never seen a piece of equipment - it all gets delivered by someone else's flatdeck so his box doesn't get scratched up. And I've seen lots more characters like that. The Lower Mainland's full of them. And I suspect the North is hardly less so. After all, there aren't that many working people left in the "hurtlands" now.

The cut of your suit don't fit anyone else I know.....

Afterword on energy prices

Bang on, Cityperson. The whinging in the succeeding posts lacks all merit. Anyone without the foresight to see that gas prices have been rising since before I started driving 30 years ago scarcely deserves the courtesy of a response when such bankrupt thinking as this is the only argument:

With the average age of a car on the roads at now 9 years, I think people have had enough time to figure out that smaller engines, and smaller cars, save money, and to start purchasing them. We've already dealt with how little actual work most modern vehicles of any size actually do, apart from lugging inflated egos around.

Incidentally, gas is still a very small part (12%) of the operating costs of a vehicle. Depreciation is still the biggest chunk by far (more than 40%) and at five years of age, maintenance surpasses it too.

By the way...

SharingisGood, I just noticed you mentioned Land Rovers. I wasn't touting Land Rovers for our climate, I was using them as an example for the African climate. They're using their own manufactured vehicles. We ought to as well, just as you say.

Cityperson's right. When a few million of us in North America are shouting one thing at the top of our lungs, and the other 5 billion in the rest of the world are saying another, who do you think has the tenuous grasp on reality?

Zalm

If you can tell me how in the name of everything holy this carbon tax will make life easier for the poor sod driving 100 kms. in a bakkie in a Zambian mud pit, then I may agree you have a point. If the carbon tax was levied to send the proceeds to poor nations to build proper infrastructure then I might agree to an even higher tax so what is you point. Enough of the sanctimonious nonsense! Only weenies live in the southern urban centers and try to preach to us in the north on what work here and what does not.

So tell me again, how will this cash grab help the destitute in developing countries? We are not even talking about the need to burn less fossil fuels here. In case you and city person have forgotten, it is about the disparity in what it is costing folks in the hurtland as opposed to the "weenies" inn the south. I'm just using Zalm's words here.

Oh, so speacial, Skywalker.... Weenies? Really?

From time to time, it seems that people need to be told that they are special and different from everyone because of where they live.

It seems like Skywalker wants to create a divide between the North and South of British Columbia. When really, someone in North Vancouver has just as much chance of seeing bear or cougar in the backyard as someone from Prince George.

The differences are mostly psychological between bush living and city living when it comes to a place like Vancouver. It just takes a few extra MINUTES to get into the wild when you are in Vancouver versus a place like Prince George.

Skywalker wrote:

Your comments were related to vehicles, I believe.

I suggest people who are ignorant of how gearing and engines actually work and cover this ignorance with a large truck for the sake of a large truck are jealous of the "weenies". Give me a well engineered truck over a gas guzzler anyday? Hiace pickups rock!

Ah, well.

I might be getting stupid.

Well Meat.

Maybe you should read the post first. Who said anything about being special. Just hate being singled out for a few more cost increases because of where I live. That kind of "being special" I don't need. Also I was responding to s specific reference to people in Fort Nelson being weenies from somebody who probably doesn't know where it is on a map. There is a lot of talk about just trading in your vehicle for a fuel efficient one. Even if you would like to do that, it takes money in the bank. So it is great having a carbon tax levied and then have people say, oh just buy a different one as though you can always make an even trade for a newer more fuel efficient one.

But I still have not heard how the Zambian driving something called a bakkie in a mud pit for a road is going to be better off because I pay a carbon tax. I guess we won't. Just a lot of condescending clap trap.

The main issue, for me, is

The main issue, for me, is the “frontier attitude card” that seems to be pulled out by some (not most) rural residents who play up the difference between people in the north, and people in the south. I lost my sense of distinction between the north and the south when I was shopping at a Real Canadian Superstore in Whitehorse. Bananas, from the tropics, were roughly the same price as what I could get them for in Vancouver. It was a major change from a few years previous when I was up north and had little access to reasonably priced fruits and vegetables.

So should consumers in more southerly regions complain about subsidizing northern food costs? It works both ways…

As far as vehicles go, I think we as consumers could do a lot to demand better and more fuel efficient vehicles. And I am not talking about hybrids that I would not take in the bush either. Give me back a 4 cylinder 4x4 pickup truck!

People in the north and south could make much better vehicle choices, however, the manufacturers are making it difficult for us. And northerners do not need an 8 cylinder 2WD Silverado to get back and forth from the 100k job site.

But if they want to pay more for gas, go ahead. Buy any vehicle, just be prepared to pay for it.

Boo-who

What a useless article.

It seems that if the oil industry increases the price of gasoline by 6 cents a litre nobody blinks an eye, but when the government says they are going to apply a carbon tax to the price of gasoline of 1.5 cents a litre the entire province goes crazy?

Perhaps we should be screaming at the oil companies rather than the BC Liberals?

Moosebeer

Of course the difference is that the oil companies don't claim they're angels out to save the world by raising the price of gasoline. The BC Liberals do.

The thing is, as Skywalker says, 2 cents won't save a single whale or a single polar bear or a single Zambian or anything else.

In fact, if the reality of the 2 cents a litre matched the fantasy our emissions would go up as we put all our gas guzzlers in the trash compactor and asked industry to build us new, albeit smaller, ones.

Of course that won't happen anyway, because 2 cents a litre won't make anyone change what car they drive.

The only way emissions are going to go down is if there's a lot less of us. Being as energy use per person is increasing we need to reduce the number of breathing people pretty substantially. More substantially than WW2 did in fact and we all know the bad press that policy got.

Since neither I nor anyone else is volunteering to stop breathing I will continue to gas up at Petro-Can and complain about paying a stupid carbon tax and GST on top of it.

Because in my opinion the carbon tax is nothing more than a way for people to feel less guilty when watching nature shows and using more energy than ever.

If the Libs really did want us to stop polluting the environment they'd ban cars and industry and bring in enforced sterilization.

So why don't they? Because the provincial economy would collapse and the rest of the world would call us idiots and meanwhile worldwide emissions would continue to increase.

A 2 cents a litre carbon tax (regardless of whether its revenue neutral or not) will not reduce overall emissions in BC and anyone who says it will is a liar.

C'mon Moosebeer

Moosebeer wrote:

Perhaps we should be screaming at the oil companies rather than the BC Liberals?

Hey Moosebeer, there has been enough screaming at the oil companies on the the Tyee.ca over the years.

However, to take the side of the oil companies for once, we know that a significant percentage of our gas purchase goes to taxes. Just look at the the stickers that the gas companies put on the side of the pumps to show where their costs are.

I gotta fill up this week. Maybe I should scream at myself, but I never seem to listen.

Sure lots go to taxes but

Sure lots go to taxes but they are making record profits, which most goes to American corporations. People of Canada what do we get out of it other than pollution and a destroyed environment? Why should we ship oil to the US so Americans can get it cheaper and we still have to import oil to meet our needs.

Like wtf is going on here?

I see in the US politicians are making a stink now about it especially since they got tax breaks and want them to justify such at Congressional hearings......

Time to Nationalise our Oil business like Venezuela and Norway, put this environmental terrorists and thieves in their place, if you ask me, actually long past time.