Just accepts the facts that

Just accepts the facts that the Liberals are more interested in breaking down our Medical system instead of improving it. Talk to any health professional who understands the system and they will tell you that the average joe and the mass-media doesn't have a clue on how the system is being mismanaged and on purpose too. Bet ya dollars to doughnuts that the Liberals legislation has already been written and they're just waiting for timing to introduce it. The cynical side of me says that it'll be introduced to the Legislature on a Friday afternoon just before the house adjourns for the weekend.

Excellent point fiat lux

I think your example is an excellent one. That is exactly what is going to happen here. Any Liberal interpretation of the results of this conversation on health care will lead to more privatization. The Campbell government says it is listening but then does exactly what it has wanted to do all along.

Listen?

Well this a government that has shown they think they know what is best for everyone. The rest of us just don't have the brains to see how right they are.
This a government that is not listening to the Supreme Court of Canada so why would they listen to their constituents that vote them into power? That doesn't make sense to me.
I really hope the Conversations do get listened to, but I have little faith that they will.

Call me a cynic, but....

Call me a cynic, but I will believe that Campbell will listen to the public on this issue when I start reading articles like this one in the Vancouver Sun and Province. That's my two cents worth, anyhow.

Our beloved Health Minister

Our beloved Health Minister was on the CBC radio today around noon. Folks said they had attended assorted converations and mostly they heard they want to keep the public system. Well good old George was there to tell them it was previous governments that allowed privatization and besides the Liberals have increased the money by huge amounts. One thing about George, he rhyms off numbers and we are all supposed to believe him. tell that to anyone on a ever increasing wait list for just about anyhting

50% in 6 years ... That's normal growth!

Anyone who graduated (even grade 7) should understand that money at 7% compounded every year doubles every 10 years or so. That's 100% increase! So, 50% in 6 years is not at all catastrophic! It is quite normal!

Good point by Fiat Lux (1st post).

As far as line-ups is concerned, I say we tax those rich baby boomers a bit more because obviously they did not pay enough (because there are line-ups and some people have to wait too long)! Mind you, we could hire more foreign labour (unless of course some treaty prevents us from doing so by way of quota limitations ... Nafta?).

I don't have a huge problem with a user pay system (to prevent careless use), but then it should be based on what a person has (in Canada, abroad in tax heavens,...) or does not have. Maybe reduce taxes, but have a small user fee system (based on your ability to pay). The rich would have higher user fees and the poor would have a token amount (from 0 to a few dollars a visit). This could be reimbursed if it deemed by the doctor to be a legitimate claim.

conversation

why are costs going up if they have privatized some of the services? like meals and laundry and cleaning...

It must remain public.

While I think it is easy to get caught up in Campbell’s rather stupid attempt to privatize non-clinical services (failing miserably fortunately) there has been some good done as well; specifically huge increases in more nurses and doctors being educated to help meet swelling demands. I am frustrated that our loyal opposition is happy to jump up and down over the odd cancelled surgery but refuses to address the hundreds of thousands of British Columbians; like my wife, who cannot even get a family doctor. We all know that it was people like Mr.Dix who created this problem and his silence on the subject is deafening.

More importantly we must keep our Health Care system public, there is already to much greed and turf wars in health care, adding profit to the mix is a recipe for disaster. But if we really care about Health Care we must find a way to keep the costs under control.

I am very disappointing to hear irresponsible claims that the rise in costs should be ignored and instead compared relative to our GDP. When our boom and bust economy bubble bursts, and we all know at some point it will; our GDP will massively drop as well. Unfortunately our health care demands and costs will not decrease one iota. They will continue to rise. As such t is completely irresponsible and ludicrous to make this GDP argument and The CCPA should know better.

My suggestion is to protect public health care we must recognize the greatest threat is not Campbell; it is us, our largely unhealthy life styles and resulting increases in demands. To keep public health care we must only need to find a way to be able to afford it. Let’s not kid ourselves; that is going to take more money. Perhaps we should be looking at user fees added on to our monthly MSP’s bills based on current ability to pay formula’s so those most in need are still free, and those who earn the most will pay the most.

The GDP is a fraudulent

The GDP is a fraudulent accounting system, designed to fool people.

Everything goes onto the GDP, nothing comes off. The more waste, damage to the environment, the more accidents, the higher the GDP.

E.g. the sale of resources is the sale of capital and can not be accounted as an income, yet it is and a big part of the GDP, Growth and Productivity figures.

In short, the whole system of neoclassical market economics is a bloody con-job and racket.

Ed Deak.

Health Care Costs Reality

Anyone ever wonder how the Liberals came up with the whomping 71% of budget by year 2017?
Carole Taylor estimates Health Care Costs will increase by 8% a year. CCPA (Canadian Center Policy Alternatives) Numbers state health care actually increased by 5.5% from 1995-2005 (although only by 3.8% over the last 5 years).
Carole Taylor estimates Government Revenue increases will be 3% a year. CCPA Numbers say there has been a 6% increase from 1995-2005.
Carole Taylor estimates % of Provincial Budget on Health Care will be 71% by 2017. CCPA Numbers say if we go at the pace we are going the real figure is 40% by 2017 ( in 2005 it was 43%).
The health budget looks like a bigger % in 2005 because they cut spending to all other ministries so makes Health Care look larger although actually it had stayed the same.
Public Health Care is sustainable. It takes some creativity which this government does not look at much. There are many examples of systems that are working our government refuses to look at. There are a few isolated cases in BC that show that. The hip and knee replacement program in Vancouver is a good example. Why is that example now not used for all surgeries through out the province?
Polls have shown the number 1 concern of Canadians about Health Care is the wait times. Don't correct that and you open people's minds to the option of private health care. Lets not fall for the myths the Liberals are feeding us.

spin doctoring again

Thanks Tricia for the explanation.
Guess we all know that the Liberals are trying their best to make our public health care look impossible to maintain.

Good to get the actual figures, so we can see that Carole Taylor is lying to us (again)!

Yes there are no doubt many ways to make it more effecient, but handing a large profit to some private entrepenour is not the answer!

Regardless we also know that the same liberals already have decided which "findings" they will publish and which they will bury.

When you are governed by these people any "public consultation" has to be a farce.

N. Esmail

One wonders where the Fraser Institute goes to find these shills.

Recently TVO's (TVOntario) afternoon talk show hosted a discussion of whether or not to ban trans fats (something that has now been done, I understand). Nadeem Esmail was there (presumably as a token apologist for those "free" industries happy and willing to poison the Canadian public if they're stupid enough or uninformed enough to buy their products) as one of the interviewed "experts". His comments were the typical compendium of nonsense about allowing people to "choose" to use or not to use poison. His fallback position was that such legislation would be too costly (lives do not count as an expense). Doubtless he would have argued as strongly that seatbelt legislation should be removed, had that been the topic of discussion for the evening. Lord knows that we all look forward to the opportunity to choose to fly unprotected at sixty miles per hour through the windshields of our vehicles.

I'm sure that the Liberal cabinet ministers involved in protecting the public trust will be equally sagacious in choosing public policy to our esteemed Mr. Esmail. I'm feeling distinctly "SiCKO".

I quite enjoyed The Province

I quite enjoyed The Province wit the comments by Adrian Dix and George Abbott today. Especially the reminded from Dix that the legislature had voted unanamoulsy in favor of the public health system. Gordon went to Europe, toures a few places, and then after private conversations with some private health guys tld us the legislation will not be proclaimed. So much for Consultaion, Conversations or whatever when Gordo gets a vision even legislation disappears, sort of like signed contracts. I wouldn't trust the guy with your watch.

Reversable

Those in favour of private health care should understand, that immediately after the next change in government, B.C. will revert to a single public medical system such as we have now.

How many times are they going to be willing to invest in something knowing that it will be done away with?

This isn't like taking land out of the land reserve.

R. Smiley

More Campbell Nonsense

Every western industrial nation, except the US, has a public healthcare system and they are cheaper on a per capita basis then the private system in the States. Yet,we get Pinnochio Campbell and the shining beacons of corporate light at the Fraser Institute pushing private care to a world that has already figured out that public is the best for the health of all people.
If it was not for the fact that the mainstream media continually parrots Campbell and his corporate sponsored Fraser dimwits, thus giving them credibility through repeating the same mantra a thousand times, these guys would be laughed out of the province the same way the Reform party was laughed at before the media provided them with credibility.

I was at the Vancouver Conversation on Health

I was a recent participant at Vancouver's Conversation on Health.

The ironic part of that name is that the conversation was NOT with the government. The conversation was with other participants. Facilitators were provided from the government in case of lack of respect (which wasn't very needed as everyone was very respectful), which were for the most part from the Forestry Ministry, not Health. No questions to the government could be answered. Furthermore, though they said they would record it, the means for recording were not high tech recordings (e.g., video, voice-to-speech), but small spaces on a one page form. In other words, in a form impossible to convey the depth, intelligence, and conviction of the consensus.

Furthermore, there was no basis to start from. Very little meaningful information was provided to participants in terms of what decisions could be made. It was simply impressed upon us that Health costs a lot of money. This makes me ask why. It's been such a short time since the Romanow report, which was almost universally respected, so why didn't we start from there?

Meanwhile, I was incredibly impressed with the participants. They were almost all intelligent, articulate, well informed people, and worked together respectfully. The government personnel were also professional, intelligent, good people and gave a good face to the government - but were given absolutely no empowerment to actually talk about the issues themselves.

Because of this, I am very skeptical of the efficacy of this endeavor and the motivation of the government. It remains to be seen whether the government does what it says and compiles submissions without bias. I would like to think it would, but past behavior makes me question this. The statements were UNIVERSALLY in favor of absolutely no movement towards private care in any form, and looking for more efficient, practical ways to utilize the public sector more. If any statement says otherwise in the final report, I shall know my skepticism was well founded.

Abbott and GDP

GDP is the best way to measure what we can afford. I wonder how else he would decide what we as a society can afford? By how many coloured rocks we find in the Fraser?

...

Absolutely... and I just heard Campbell confirm this on NW this morning... he said something along the lines of the only way they can make changes to the health care system is if the public feels like they are a part of the process (I'm summarizing here).

It's obvious the Government has a plan and will cherry pick from the conversation to implement it. It's all a sham.