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Beyond 'Teepees and Igloos'
Reconciling with First Nations begins in the classroom.
Deroche Elementary students help carver Tom Patterson create a post for their school. Photo: David Campion.
Tyee Interview
Listen to audio: Kathryn Gretsinger interviews Sandra Shields about First Nations reconciliation.
[Editor's Note: Two years ago, the government of British Columbia and First Nations leaders laid out a vision for a "New Relationship," spurring initiatives aimed at "closing the gap" between Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal British Columbians. This is the second article in a four-part Tyee Solutions Reporting Fellowship series by Sandra Shields, who is looking at steps being taken in her home community of the Fraser Valley. To learn more about Shields, her series and Tyee fellowships, go here.]
Cedar shavings pile up and kids cluster around as carver Tom Patterson coaxes the rough shape of a bear cub out of one end of an 11-foot log. The sidewalk behind Deroche Elementary School is serving as Patterson's makeshift carving studio for six weeks while he carves a house post for the school's front entrance. Lunch break brings a steady flow of students; after a few weeks Patterson already knows most of their names. He swaps stories and cookies with the stream of young onlookers and lets those who are keen try their hand at carving.
I came to Deroche Elementary to find out what kids today are learning about Aboriginal people. The question seemed fundamental to the idea of a new relationship. My own 1970s education taught a version of Aboriginal culture and history that ran to little more than teepees, igloos and the fur trade. That truncated account supported the story mainstream Canada still likes to tell itself over beers after work. Since beginning this project, I've heard variations on it from valley rednecks and urban sophisticates alike. The story goes that before the settlers arrived there weren't many people here and they weren't really using the land. The government created reserves and gave Aboriginal people the benefits of technology and education. Usually the conclusion is some twist on how it all happened a long time ago and Aboriginal people should get over it.
In questioning Stó:lo leaders about the new relationship, one of the themes that kept recurring was the need for ordinary British Columbians to better understand what happened here. In the literature about reconciliation, the point is made repeatedly that shifts in worldviews are part of the process. I was in South Africa during the heady days when Nelson Mandela was president and the oft-heard refrain was that hope for a shared future lay with the children. By venturing into Deroche Elementary, I hoped to get a feel for the story the next generation of British Columbians will be telling.
Inner-city in the country
In many respects Deroche is like an inner-city school in the country. "We draw from five trailer parks and two reserves," principal Murray Butt tells me one afternoon in the library. "A lot of our kids come to school not ready to start school." The school runs a breakfast club, has a pre-kindergarten program, an Aboriginal support worker, and "puts a real focus on literacy and numeracy right off the bat."
Murray Butt brought his high energy and ready smile to Deroche Elementary six years ago. Soon after he arrived he was asked whether a weekend visitor to the school would find any clues to tell them how unique the student body was.
"Fifty per cent of our students were Aboriginal," Butt says, "and there was nothing in the school that reflected that." The staff put the goal of raising awareness of Aboriginal culture into the school's growth plan, but it was a meeting between Butt and Johnny Williams, a parent from the nearby Scowlitz reserve, that really got the ball rolling.
Williams was an Aboriginal support worker in the Abbotsford school system and was able to guide staff in making culturally appropriate choices. "We were lucky to have a person with his skills to help us," Butt says. Williams connected the school with a Stó:lo artist and soon there was Aboriginal artwork on the walls. The school's logo was redone with an Aboriginal design and emblazoned on T-shirts worn proudly by kids and teachers.
Although there was some initial uncertainty from a few non-Aboriginal parents, often it was the result of misunderstandings such as when one mom thought the Halkomelem words her child was learning were replacing French lessons, and generally staff has been able to allay concerns.
Resources for teaching Aboriginal content have expanded exponentially in the last 15 years. In November, the province released a 200-page guide for including Aboriginal culture in every subject from art to math. As well, teachers have access to Aboriginal presenters from the community who come into the classroom to share traditional knowledge about subjects as wide ranging as carving, making bannock and learning about local plant life.
All kids benefit
"We make sure there is an opportunity every term for doing something that is related to the culture," Murray Butt says. In the past, Aboriginal students were pulled out of class for cultural learning and staff at Deroche felt it was important to change that. "We do it for all of our kids, we don't want just the Aboriginal students to benefit from learning about the culture," Butt says.
Each school district has an Aboriginal coordinator. In his work at Deroche, Murray Butt has the support of Colleen Hannah, Aboriginal principal for the Mission School District. Hannah endorses the inclusive approach favored by staff at Deroche. "If we pull our Aboriginal kids out," she says, "even if they're getting a good understanding of the culture, the other kids feel they're missing out. When it's something they've all done in class and the other students think it's cool, then the Aboriginal kids feel more pride in who they are."
Judy Dallin is the coordinator of Aboriginal education for the Langley School District. "I think a huge part of what cultural presenters do when they go into the classroom is undo stereotypes," she says. "That's what breaks down stereotypes between any cultures is people getting to know each other."
Changing attitudes
The Xá:ytem Longhouse stands on the site of an ancient Stó:lo village not far from Deroche. As well as welcoming tourists from around the world, Xá:ytem runs hands-on culture programs for school kids. Since the programs began in 1995, about 120,000 Lower Mainland students have arrived in yellow school buses to visit the sacred transformer stone perched on the hillside, tour the pit houses, try their hand at Coast Salish weaving or sift for artifacts, and gain a feel for the rich history that has unfolded here for thousands of years.
"I feel like I'm watching attitudes change," director Linnea Battel says. "We've even had feedback from superintendents of schools that send a lot of students to our program saying there's been a visible reduction in racist incidents over time."
Battel grew up in Mission, attended residential school and then entered a public high school. "My brothers fought their way through high school and so did my sons," she says. "That was 25 years ago and nothing had changed at that point. But my grandchildren have had a way better time of it. They were going through school when the culture started to be celebrated."
Indigenous science
Arts and social sciences were the first areas where Aboriginal content was incorporated, but increasingly, Aboriginal perspectives are being included in curriculum for every discipline. Dr. Lorna Williams from the St'at'yem'c First Nation holds the Canada Research Chair in Indigenous Knowledge and Learning at the University of Victoria where she is also the director of Aboriginal Teacher Education. In 2002, while she was head of Aboriginal Education with the provincial Ministry of Education, Williams drew attention to the fact that very few indigenous students were enrolled in the high school science courses needed for university.
"Graduation rates were going up," she says, "but what was that graduation leading to?"
In partnership with the ministry, another UVic professor and more than a dozen graduate students, Williams is currently working on a research project to develop ways of teaching science that incorporate indigenous knowledge and its insights into the rhyme and reason of the natural world, especially the intimate local perspectives it offers.
"Our goal is to make science relevant for Aboriginal students," Williams says. At the same time, she points out, "Traditional ecological knowledge offers a holistic view of the natural world; and it is a perspective that is in line with cutting-edge scientific research." In a world beset by environmental challenges, it is the kind of knowledge that is increasingly relevant for every student.
Broader understanding
A broad-based inclusive approach to Aboriginal content in the curriculum means that students of every cultural background are learning more about indigenous culture than ever before. In an e-mail, Education Minister Shirley Bond explains that, "All students benefit from having a greater understanding of Aboriginal perspectives. They learn more about where they live and who their neighbors are and they have an opportunity to broaden their understanding about some of the issues facing Aboriginal communities."
Each of the Aboriginal educators I spoke with were passionate in making the point that in learning about Aboriginal culture and knowledge, all students are learning the history of the place that they call home.
While a growing numbers of teachers are coming on board, Mission's Colleen Hannah says that in her experience, Deroche is on the leading edge. She finds that many teachers still have little experience with Aboriginal culture and can be uncomfortable incorporating it into lessons.
And, of course, all the support materials in the world mean nothing if they're not being taught. "I think people are afraid," Hannah says. "It takes a lot of conversations to get them to understand where we've come from, our history." She points out that many teachers themselves grew up with the same abbreviated account of indigenous history that I was taught in school.
When did things change?
"Up until 1994, First Nations weren't involved in decision making for education in the public school system," Gwen Point says. Earlier that morning I had joined the Stó:lo history class she teaches at the University College of the Fraser Valley. Once class was over, we sat down for a wide ranging conversation and one of the things Point explained was why B.C. schools began including Aboriginal content in their curriculum.
It happened in the mid-1990s. "That was when the Minister of Education targeted Aboriginal funds indicating that school districts must have informed consent from Aboriginal families to spend Aboriginal funds," Point says. "That changed the way business was done in school districts and for the first time Aboriginal people had a say."
Point grew up on the Chehalis reserve east of Deroche. "I wasn't successful in school," she says, "not because I wasn't a good student, I liked school, but I couldn't handle the racism and discrimination." She worked as a hairdresser until returning to university to become a teacher. In 1993 she joined Stó:lo Nation as the manager of education and spent the next decade working with schools from Hope to Langley, helping them broaden their curriculums and better support Aboriginal students.
"Chilliwack was the first school district to come on board and spend their money on Aboriginal education, language, culture and on support services," Point says.
"Has it made a difference?" she asks. "Yes it has. You think those students," she says, referring to the Aboriginal students in her UCFV history class, "would be in their first year of college if things hadn't changed?"
Driven by First Nations
Aboriginal education in Canada took a decisive move away from the assimilation policy of residential schools in the early 1970s with the release of the Indian Control of Indian Education report by the Assembly of First Nations. At the time, graduation rates for Aboriginal students were below 20 per cent.
Shortly after the report came out, Stó:lo academic Dr. Jo-Ann Archibald began her career as the sole Aboriginal teacher in North Vancouver. "Curriculum from an Aboriginal perspective was almost non-existent then," she says, "and the involvement of Aboriginal people was a lot more minimal."
Today, Archibald is associate dean for Indigenous Education at UBC and acting director of UBC's Native Indian Teacher Education Program. She echoes Gwen Point in making it clear that the changes in education policy were driven by indigenous people. "It started very much with a political awareness and political movement," Archibald says. "There was a civil rights movement in the '60s and cultural revitalization in the '70s."
There was resistance to including more Aboriginal content. Archibald lists off the typical arguments: "People would say: 'We only have one Aboriginal child, why should we do it for one child?' Not thinking that it's good for all children. Or they would say: 'Well if we do it for Aboriginals, we have to do it for every other culture,' which fails to recognize that Canada was built on Aboriginal lands."
Nevertheless, by the mid-1990s, the province had committed to ensuring that the money spent on Aboriginal education ($47.5 million in 2006/2007) supported the dual priorities of (1) providing better instruction about Aboriginal culture, language, and history, and (2) improving the performance of Aboriginal students.
Ongoing crisis
Just before Christmas, the Ministry of Education released its annual report on the performance of Aboriginal students showing that graduation rates in 2005/2006 dropped one percentage point to 47 per cent. That's compared to a completion rate of 79 per cent for all B.C. students.
"We have to recognize that Aboriginal education is in crisis," Jo-Ann Archibald says. "We hear it so often it doesn't mean anything anymore. But if in the general population there was an announcement that of all students only 47 per cent completed grade 12, what would the reaction be from the public?"
"A lot more effort is needed in order to keep on having success and we need to expand the people who are involved in making change," Archibald says. "I think we've got a small but growing critical mass of Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal educators and community folks and political leadership ready to do something, but we need a more concerted and holistic approach to what we're doing."
She advocates more partnerships among institutions and schools and a move away from the silo approach to funding which sees money for Aboriginal education coming from various branches of the provincial and federal government. "There's been progress made," she says. "We have the start of something, the catalytic action or synergy, and I think if we are more focused, we could be on the brink of major change."
Tomorrow's teachers
It is still possible to go through teacher training in B.C. without learning much about Aboriginal education. At UBC it is included in one core education course but depending on the interest, it might be covered in a single lecture. At SFU there is a module called Indigenous Peoples Teacher Education Module and Aboriginal Focus Teacher Education Module -- Urban Experience. While the smaller teacher training programs at UNBC and UBC Okanagan include core courses on Aboriginal education, similar courses in the larger programs at UBC and UVic are electives.
In September, a task force co-chaired by Jo-Ann Archibald and Lorna Williams, submitted recommendations for changing this. Key among the recommendations was implementing core Aboriginal course requirements for all pre-service teachers and including Aboriginal content as a component within other courses. The task force also stressed the need for more Aboriginal teachers, pointing out that: "Three times the number of current Aboriginal teachers is needed in order for the teaching profession to reflect the population demographics of Aboriginal people."
Both Archibald and Williams commented on the growing number of non-Aboriginal students they meet coming into teacher education who are keen to learn about indigenous culture and history. At the same time, they repeated how critical it is that the system improve its capacity to support people of Aboriginal heritage in becoming classroom teachers. Beyond that, they say, we also need to see more Aboriginal professionals moving into administration, becoming principals, superintendents and school board trustees.
Enhancement agreements between local Aboriginal communities and school districts are another key. Implemented by the Ministry of Education, these agreements target performance and delivery expectations and support strong partnerships between communities and school districts. In December, the province reached the halfway mark in its goal to see enhancement agreements signed in all 60 school districts and Education Minister Shirley Bond notes that districts where the agreements are already in place are reporting "tremendous success."
In Mission, Colleen Hannah has been spearheading meetings with the many local Aboriginal communities involved in creating the agreement. She is excited about the progress made and hopes to see Mission District's enhancement agreement signed later this year.
A new story?
Back on the sidewalk behind Deroche Elementary, the heavy winter rain that fell all morning has stopped and a constellation of kids are circling around carver Tom Patterson. A blond boy asks if he can have a try and Patterson shows him how to hold the chisel while two Aboriginal boys watch intently. A few minutes later, Patterson leads all the kids in a cheer for first boy, then hands the chisel to a student from the Scowlitz First Nation. When his turn is over, the kids all cheer again.
In following the line of inquiry that brought me through the doors of Deroche Elementary, I discovered that, in the main, the push to include more Aboriginal content in schools came from Aboriginal leaders, teachers and parents, many of whom had attended residential schools and knew first hand the consequences of having their language and culture rendered shameful. They wanted their children to receive an education that was respectful of their culture and reflected the richness of their history -- which, of course, is the history of the place where we all now live. One of the results of their efforts is that non-Aboriginal kids are also learning a story about Aboriginal culture and history that goes well beyond teepees and igloos.
Despite a skiff of fresh snow, the sun is shining brightly on the March morning when school officials join parents and grandparents from Deroche and the Leq'á:mél and Scowlitz First Nations for the raising of the new house post. The students sit at the front of the gymnasium, struggling to keep their excitement in check as a drum is played and a traditional song is sung.
This year 60 per cent of the students at Deroche Elementary are of Aboriginal heritage. Enhancement agreements, integrated curriculum, teachers with greater cultural awareness, these are all steps in the right direction. It remains to be seen how many of these young faces will be walking across the stage to receive their high school diplomas in 10 years time, but on this bright morning, seeing how proud and excited all of the kids are, I find myself feeling cautiously hopeful about the future of relations between Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal British Columbians.
Next Friday: Reconciliation in the forests? ![[Tyee]](http://thetyee.cachefly.net/ui/img/ico_fishie.png){kind=small}
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- Seven Goals to Build the Conservative 'Dream'
167
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climber
5 years ago
Hey Sandra, why use the
Hey Sandra, why use the words "valley redneck" to describe people, obviuosly white? Might as well call the poor white kids that go to school in Deroche "white trailer trash" I know that area pretty well, worked on both sides of Harrison Lake in the bush, cut trees down for Hydro all along Morris Valley road (that leads to Chehalis). Been all over that country, on both sides of the river. Also, what do you think of the garbage dump the Stolo run south west of the Aggasiz-Rosedale bridge on highway 11? I remember when this started back in the early 90s, it was just a stump dump for landclearing disposal, as time went by it became a full on garbage dump. How the hell did this ever happen, who was to scared to stop it? You cannot tell me a dump on the banks of the Fraser is a good thing. I went to school with Native kids up north, never knew there was a "difference" until someone told me, kids are cool, they get b.s. from all sides. Some white kids are told Natives get a free ride, some Native kids are told the white man screwed them over, they can figure it out. Especially now. I guess what I am saying is that the sun shines out of no ones ass, Natives can be the same as everyone else. Now they have got public sympathy by the balls on a downhill pull, comes around goes around I guess, try and stay objective.
bob the cat
5 years ago
Climber
Have you made some noise about this dump?
Has anyone?... clean it up! clean it up !
alive
5 years ago
equality?
climber you speak for many of us!
I recall the native villages along highway 16, where everything was falling apart and nobody lifted a finger to prevent it; maybe waiting for the "white man" to come fix their leaking roof, instead of keeping their kids off the roof?
We have become a society that feels guilty about everything, and others are using us to their benefit, simple as that!
Life is equally tough , no matter your skin colour or religion!
Let the natives worry about their own culture, just as anyone else has to worry about their roots.
flattax
5 years ago
Political correctness is killing out culture
I can't beleive they are teaching so much political correct revisionsist history in the schools. This is why so many people, whoever can afford it, opt for private schools. So their children can be prepared for universtity, not for a life that the left wing socialist state our planners would have for them.
Why did we let two homosexuals hijack our school system? This is another example of what should not be taught in the schools.
Ever hear of European History? It is glossed over in favor of political correct programming these days. It is too white.
What about science?
These children should be taught creativity and science, not white guilt.
Let's compare our schools to Asian schools for a second, particularly the Japanese, where it is competitive, difficult and focused on the Science. We will easily see why we in the West are falling behind. Being out manufactured and having the Asian countries develop so fast.
These left wing touchy feely scools do not prepare children for the future, armed with a tool kit of logic and science. They prepare children to be blue collar workers in the mill, like ther fathers were. While children of rich parents go to a private school and graduate with a great tool kit for success. This only perpetuates the class system over generations.
Teaching things like this in schools, will keep the children in the trailer park and on the reserve. Is this what the social planners had in mind?
Besides, we will see how this school does in the Fraser institure school report, the only objective and independent evaluation of scools.
climber
5 years ago
Japanese schools
I somewhat agree, bad to use Japan, they gloss right over the terrible, evil things Japan did before and during WW2. Sucess, at any cost, meanwhile, we always hear about the "war crime" of the atomic bomb.
Capitalism
5 years ago
Flattax
While I don't agree with how you got to your opinion, I do agree with your conclusion.
The school system has been hi-jacked by the Ideological Left. Kids are being brainwashed. I teach my kids how to learn.
School should exist to teach kids how to learn. Instead, it teaches them complacency and to absorb trivial. Who, What, Where, When - doesn't matter!
Why?? If you understand the Why? You can figure out the rest.
Schools should teach kids the facts, why the facts are the facts, and application of the facts. Not spread propaganda!
flattax
5 years ago
Agreed. Teach kids facts, not opinions
The socialists and unionized employees in control of the school system do not want a diversity of opinions, they only want to do their politically correct social experiment on our kids. They think parents are unable to teach kids values. So they try to teach opinions as facts.
All those social aspects are better left to parents and peers, not social planners.
I actually tried to look up Deroche elementary on the Fraser institute report cards. It was not there! I do not know why but I have suspicions.
However, all of the schools in the Mission school district did universally bad. Look it up yourself. The school board there has nothing to be proud of and should work to improve the performance of the schools, not pander to the left. They take the easy way out by trying to divert and confuse parents, white and aboriginal, about what is important issue here - a good education based in facts and science.
voice
5 years ago
logic, facts & science
Unfortunately "logic, facts and science" are not what they are all cracked up to be. "Facts" and so-called "logic" are always sullied with peoples' opinions/values ...as is "science." Let's not go through life starry-eyed about these characters! Let's be a little objective here.
I'm for whatever supports young people to respect themselves, the people and nature world around them. Unfortunately, the years of ongoing genocide against aboriginal peoples, women, the poor, 4-legged and winged creatures, among others, gets in the way of all of our existence on the planet.
Worshipping unequivocally "logic, facts and science" leaves me cold, scared and feeling very alone. While these concepts can be useful they have been overused in the west.
As or the criticisms of public education ve private...everyone deserves an education.
Shame on the Liberals, the Fraser Institute in cohoots with corporate culture vultures for trying to privatize every aspect of our lives.
We end up believing there are limited resources to go around. There would be plenty if the corporate culture were not so greedy and operating out of control at the expense of all lives on the planet. Our culture is indeed a culture of violence, at home and abroad.
See Derrick Jensen in Vancouver on Wednesday, April 18th, at Langara College. Tickets at Banyen Books.
anarcho
5 years ago
The socialists and unionized
The socialists and unionized employees in control of the school system do not want a diversity of opinions, they only want to do their politically correct social experiment on our kids.
As though you did either, you hypocrit. You are just upset that your prejudices are not being imposed upon the children. I went to school back in the 1950's. Native People's history was ignore except for the torture of Brabeuf, Asians were ignored as well as eastern Europeans, history of the labour movement and women's struggle for equal rights. The Revolution of 1837 was ridiculed. Riel treated as a traitor. The disaster that was WW1 treated as a great moment in our history, the Depression ignored, the British Empire treated as some great gift from above etc. I am so thankful that attempts have been made - though still very limited - to rectify this perversion of reality.
Capitalism
5 years ago
G....er...Anarcho
There is no way you, G West, went to school in the 50s. Stop using Anarcho. Alcibaides has everybody angry enough..
G West
5 years ago
Cappy
What IS WRONG with you?
Incapable of sustaining a coherent thought, let alone a cohesive argument you're now back to this. I thought you weren’t going to resort to that kind of thing any longer.
Bereft of ideas, deficient in logic, knowledge and human feeling, I guess that's all you have left.
Sad, really.
Oh well, I had a feeling your resolution not to resort to the same old ad hominem nonsense wouldn't last.
And this:
Poor kids.
anarcho
5 years ago
Cappy you fool
I bet a thousand dollars I went to school in the 1950's! I am 62 years old, which means I started school in 1951, Jr High in 1957, Senior High in 1960, graduated in 1963, attended SFU 1967-70, graduating with a BA in Sociology.
climber
5 years ago
1968
Uhh, I thought SFU opened in '68. Nitpickin, and yeah, before I get labelled, I don't think too much of the Fraser Intstitutes take on education, not everything can be measured in $$.
G West
5 years ago
Nope Check your facts climber.
SFU's first semester was Fall 1965.
The University is named after Simon Fraser, Loyalist, fur-trader and explorer, who in 1808 completed one of the greatest journeys in the annals of Canadian history by descending the mighty river which today bears his name. The Fraser family coat of arms forms the basis of the University's coat of arms which appears on the title page of this Calendar. The colors of Simon Fraser University are red and blue.
In January 1963 a report entitled Higher Education in British Columbia and a Plan for the Future, by Dr. J.B. Macdonald, recommended the creation of a new university in the Lower Mainland. Two months later the establishment of Simon Fraser University received formal assent in the British Columbia Legislature, and in May of the same year Dr. Gordon M. Shrum was appointed Chancellor.
From a variety of sites which were offered, the Chancellor recommended to the Provincial Government that the top of 1200 foot Burnaby Mountain be selected for the new university. Lying east of Vancouver, the site commands magnificent views of Burrard Inlet, the mountains, the Fraser River and Vancouver Harbour.
Architects were invited to compete in the design of the overall campus. The Vancouver firm of Erickson/Massey won the competition, and the four architects who had been runners-up in the competition each designed at least one building within the overall plan. The outstanding architecture has won many awards.
Construction began in the spring of 1964 and eighteen months later, on September 9, 1965, Simon Fraser University opened to 2,500 students.
Since those early years the University has grown substantially. In September 2005 approximately 23,645 students were enrolled in courses. At the June 2005 Convocation ceremonies 3,600 credentials were conferred, while at the University's October Convocation, 1,900 students received their credentials.
G West
5 years ago
Sandra Shields
Thanks to you and TYEE for your serious and sympathetic look at a situation that needs a lot more attention in this province.
I wish I were confident that the efforts of the provincial government to establish a legal and respectful basis for relations between First Nations and the majority culture in British Columbia are a consequence of the humanity both groups share in common; something that has not, historically, been the case as you point out.
I fear, especially given the role of commerce and business in the treaty process, both as participants and encouragers, that something quite different is going on. And I worry about the depth of resentment and misanthropy towards native peoples and their hopes and desires revealed by some of the comments your work has elicited.
I hope it is nothing more serious than the feelings of just a few posters and not widely representative of the attitudes of the public at large.
DPL
5 years ago
One of the neatest schools I
One of the neatest schools I have been in, is on a reserve in Mill Bay outside Victoria. some beutiful carved poles. The class rooms were spotless and the kids were quite proud of their school. The local bands have their onw school buses. Kids have the option to use the school or any of the schools in Sidney. I've met a number of university students, Indian, at a number of teaty meeeintgs or at lectures and debates. Most are coming a long quite well, like most kids in other groups. I can't count the times I've heard elders talk about tow subjects. One was don't smoke it will hurt you and the other. Get the best education you have. I'm non Indian and really enjoyed discussing issues with a number of the UVic students.One youg woman's mom told us her duaghter was pretty lippy for arguing with a professor. I suggested that it made her aware that she just might have been right and was sticking to her position. I knew the professor and told him. He was so pleased and he said she will go far. Sure some students sort of drag themselves through school but its not just one group of kids. The parents have to support their efforts
Capitalism
5 years ago
G West
I think you forgot to login as Anarcho before you defended yourself.
G West = Anarcho
bob the cat
5 years ago
cappy
hi cappy
Schools should teach kids the facts, why the facts are the facts, and application of the facts. Not spread propaganda!
Maybe one mans Why? is another mans "propaganda"
ya think?
cappy?
BLONDE PITBULL
5 years ago
Bob the cat...
...."ya think? cappy?"
Not often,
not long
and not hard.LOL
Sorry, Cappy, I just couldn't resist.
Umslopogaas
5 years ago
Fraser Institute
Flatax.
The good old FI certainly does a good job of spewing out skewed statistics. I could detail some of their numerous fubars but why confuse you with facts when you have your mind made up?
anarcho
5 years ago
Really Dumb!
You really are dumber than a sack of hammers aren't you Cappy. GW is no anarcho-syndicalist, to start off with - not that I hold it against him. If you think I am going to give my name on a site frequented by sociopathic neocons, forget it but as I stated before with Nightjar, post an email address where you can be reached. I will reveal who I am and you can then PayPal me the $100 you owe me.
anarcho
5 years ago
Big Deal!
20 milion people listen to Pills Limbaugh. So what? That is about 8% of the US population. Since about 40% think the world is only 6000 years old, that 8% must be the knuckle-draggers at bottom of the barrel.
The brain
5 years ago
Sorry people, but...
There are bigger issues than stupids thinking they are superior to others because of the "color" of their skin. In the coming decades, the theme won't be "haves" and "have nots". It'll be about survival and survival is, mark my words, color blind.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/2007/04/06/climate-un.html
flattax
5 years ago
Brain or lack thereof
Why post that link to some global warming hysteria garbage? Too off topic and irrelevant. Not to mention totally based on junk science.
A bunch of burecrats haggling over how to get the state to control all aspects of our daily lives, under the guise of a world temperature crisis.
However, maybe it does link in to the topic of the schools. It is a great example of people swallowing what they are fed by the media but needing to learn to think for themself. Maybe this is something that was not learned in schools and many people have not yet gotten the hang of.
The global warming hysteria will eventually be revealed as the greatest swindle in history.
bob the cat
5 years ago
flattax.. the prophet
6:4 But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without {c} honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
Stand firm flattax...they`ll catch up to you eventually.
But for now...a voice in the little Rhodesian wilderness it will have to be..
C.B.
5 years ago
Wow!
From Alive to flattax . . . a truly frightening array of ignorance.
alive
5 years ago
Roots
C.B.
Ignorance?
Relating actual facts is ignorant?
Pointing out that some natives just sit back and wait for handouts is not acceptable?
I further reasoned that everyone has roots, and the idea of maintaining traditions and culture falls on the following generations, and not on society in general.
So C.B. if you have an opinon state it instead of pissing on me!
BTW: I am not necessarily in Flattax's corner as most readers will know; perhaps proving here, that I am not left or right on any one issue?
maestro
5 years ago
4 WEATHERMEN OF THE LATEST APOCALYPSE DU JOUR
Yep...
The 4 Weathermen of the Apocalypse...
I can see them now.
" I love the smell of greenhouse gases in the morning ".
Oops....this is the Politically Correct section... WEATHER- " PERSON "...Meteorological Climatolo - jist
Pass the plate...
maestro
5 years ago
4 WEATHERMEN OF THE LATEST APOCALYPSE DU JOUR
Yep...
The 4 Weathermen of the Apocalypse...
I can see them now.
" I love the smell of greenhouse gases in the morning ".
Oops....this is the Politically Correct section... WEATHER- " PERSON "...Meteorological Climatolo - jist
Pass the plate...
anarcho
5 years ago
A solution for our resident haters.
I think it is time that the group of people who come here only to disrupt, or to ram their gutter-press cliches and prejudices down our throats ought to be ignored or simply laughed at the way we do the Clueless One. They are not here for dialogue or rational debate, which is shown by the endless use of logical fallacies like red herrings and straw men, and the fact that when you catch them using a fallacy, they simply ignore it and use a different one. Their views can be summarized as follows and it might be an idea to have the Tyee keep this list permanently so our resident bigots, misanthropes and haters can just write whatever number is applicable and not have to go to all the trouble of writing out their diatribe.
1. There is a monolithic creature called The Left which is reducable to its most loony PC minority
2. All leftists are socialists
3. The only socialism that exists is state socialism
4. The only conservatism is neoconservatism, all other varieties to the Memory Hole
5. Government is always wrong, unless it is to help corporations
6. Global warming isn't happening
7. and if it is, it isn't the fault of industrialization or capitalism
8. FN's should quit whining, buck up and become white
9. The Europeans didn't take their land
10. But how they ended up with it cannot be explained
11. Any desire on the part of Non-FN's to rectify the injustice is done so out of guilt.
12. Trade unions are bad and the trade union bosses exloit the workers
13. but billionaires do not
14. Our leaders know what is best for us - if they are neocons or corporate CEO's
15. Canada should be in Afghanistan and Iraq too except for the wicked Liberals
16. Isreal is never wrong
17. Anti-semitism = criticism of Isreali policies
18. Anti-Americanism = criticism of US foreign policies
19. When science agrees with my prejudices, it is really science
20. When it disagrees with my prejudices it is junk science
SharingIsGood
5 years ago
thanks anarcho
Yes, that should cover it sufficiently, anarcho (though you did leave out teacher-bashing - LOL).
I have been hoping that the posters at the Tyee would become kinder and wiser over time. Joy comes to my life every time I figure out how to increase the amount of good I do for others. I exist to make my world a better place by improving it (or saving what I can of it) for others. I have learned much about how to do this from my kind and gentle neighbours who have inhabitied (my) valley for thousands of years. I am beholden to them. Peace be with you and to all who read this.
The brain
5 years ago
More for flattax
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2007/04/07/climbers-warming.html
We gotta tell 'em, Flattax, "Its not happening, its not happening, global warming is a hoax!"
Extra! Extra! Read all about it!! Flattax declares global warming a hoax!!! Science is junk, delcares Flattax!! :-)
And someday, we're all sure, Flattax is going to get out the scientific data specially prepared by Exxon and Imperial to debunk scientific global warming doomsayers, once and for all!!!
Someday...
The stars are shining a litter brighter is all, right Flattax? Isn't that what Fox is saying? Just brighter stars is all. Business as usual, nothing to worry about, right Flattax?
Just remember to vote Republican and Conservative, right Flattax? Cause, you know, when those dangerous Iranians who could some decade develop a bomb get in the way of our oil this year, oops, I meant, "our quest for peace and democracy", Bush and Shrub will know what to do... just like with what they did with their indians back home!!
No one is special, aint that right, Flattaxxer...
And some of us think greedy oilburners, greedy warmongers and greedy racists aren't related. :-)
The brain
5 years ago
Oh, yah, global warming is bunk ask flattax!
http://www.cbc.ca/cp/science/070405/g040521A.html
or this...
http://www.cbc.ca/cp/science/070405/g040517A.html
and this...
http://www.cbc.ca/cp/science/070405/g040515A.html
and this...
http://www.cbc.ca/cp/science/070405/g040502A.html
This one is kinda scary...
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/climatechange/unreport-2007-pt2.html
Flattax might be a slow reader, but he should be able to learn what global warming actually is with this site:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/climatechange/globalwarming.html
Or maybe we should all just stay stupid. I know! Lets privatize the CBC!!! Canadians don't need to worry their pretty little heads over trivials such as global warming, right flattax? Canadians can just watch fox news, instead.
The brain
5 years ago
:-)
You know what, Flattax? You're quite a piece of work. (just thought I'd put up some vintage racist Flattax quotes that are about 6 days old) You know what, there, buddy? I feel like putting words in you're mouth. Heard them all before anyways, but I'm bored and love to make fun of fools. :-) (ok, its really because you are still struggling with spelling and need help getting your racist messages across) ;-)
"Vote for Harper! Vote for his Republicans!! Global warming is a hoax! Commie CBC said its for real so it must be all lies! Big oil knows whats best. All other federal parties must die!!! Down with environmentalists!! Up with corporations!! Down with taxes to the rich. Up with taxes to the poor!! Lets make lots of $$$$. Environmentalists and color sypathizers can kiss our asses. Lets make lots of money!!! Vote for Harper and his Republicans!! We want NAU!! Down with native rights!! Sell all boards, squash all unions, privatize all crowns, deregulate, deregulate!! Sell out to the U.S. corps now!!! Sell the water. Global warming is a hoax!! Privatize healthcare!!! Poor people deserve to be poor!! They don't work... rich people should be the only ones with rights!! Whites only! America first!!! USA! USA!"
C'mon folks, lets all be blind racist, oilburning, warmongering, corporate hack cheerleaders like Flattax is! Bush forever! Republicans rock! USA!! USA!
:-)
maestro
5 years ago
Blessed are the Lefties,they shall inherit..err confiscate/steal
Wow.
That was quite the sermon over Easter Weekend.
SIG: PEACE be with you too. (Ham or Turkey today)?
Anarcho:..its spelled Israel...(unless you are an anti - semite). Sociology degree ?..AND from SFU's early days?...THAT hot bed of right wing zealots? . You must be a retired CEO.
RE: the Left Wing's virtuous elbows flailing as they move onto the societal stage up to the podium to sermonize to rest of us lesser mortals. Often best summarized as a weekend pass to the "cause du jour" . WE LEFTIES BELIEVE IN IT... THEREFORE IT MUST BE TRUE !!!. Non believers are bigots, misanthropes etc.
Maybe Lefties should take the time machine back to the Salem Witch trials or the "J'accuse" days. If we had a "Leftie in power for a day" contest...Lefties totally in charge of Gov't, it would be a toxic mix of both amusing and scary. Thank God the natural and supernatural forces keep this possibility at bay.
RE: Land Claims issue and Treaty Negotiations:
Came across some interesting info recently via my own due diligence . The Treaty Negotiations groups have determined treaty areas per First Nations Groups..ie traditional territory. Group " X " literally has a lock on most of the Western GVRD.
However, in a contentious proposed transportation route, a Gov't report by a certain Ministry has invited in approx. 5 different First Nations groups to be a part of the consultation process. This is based on various archeological zones identified along this proposed route . Now much of this route is within the so-called traditional area of aforementioned
First Nations Group "X" , or that determined by the Treaty Negotiators.
However, to have OTHER First Nations groups become involved in an previously area deemed to belong to First Nations group " X " reasonably implies that defining traditional territories or treaty settlements is simply a subjective exercise in political expediency.
Why isn't this report made more Public ? I think this could have huge implications. One F.N. Band has already challenged another F.N. Band's " deemed territory ".
A Leftie would sign a blank cheque and say damn the consequences, and obligate everyone regardless of beliefs to pay, especially once a precedent is established.
Non - Lefties which includes the majority that are "middle of the road"...would say proceed with caution/err on the side of caution.
The honeymoon on these Treaty Settlements is over, and even the First Nations groups are now seriously questioning them. I think it's a worse mess now than it was before settlement courtship started. I think a Huge Pandora's Box has been opened which may gridlock any future settlements. I am not sure who is going to blink first, it may be both sides staring at each other in perpetuity.
Otherwise keep preaching Lefties...time to change the channel.
anarcho
5 years ago
Maestro simplified
Maestro, you don't neeed to spend all that effort. Go to the list. Your diatribe consists of numbers 1, 8, 9, 10 and 11. Simple!
G West
5 years ago
I don't think 'lefties' has anything to do with it
'Reconciling with First Nations in the classroom' is the title and subject of this part of Shields's series.
In order to address deep-seated issues of prejudice and insecurity, not to mention a denigrated cultural heritage; an approach that integrates First Nations' experiences and knowledge into classrooms long-dominated by a 'version' of history invented by a lot of dead white guys doesn't seem like such a bad idea to me.
DO you have a problem with that maestro?
Many of the issues you seem to be concerned with were introduced last week, next Friday, given my reading, the series will be dealing with issues related to the forest industry management.
There was a reference in Shields’ first offering that I think might apply here:
I think they do.
On the other hand, if your views are representative of the majority attitude in this province then I guess Gould may be right. As events unfold, the truth of these matters will become clearer. Or at least, maestro, that’s the way it seems to me.
flattax
5 years ago
The Brain
Glad I made you think for once in you life!
Question question question the orthodoxy of political correctness.
maestro
5 years ago
Anarcho ' n G. West (Tag team coincidence?)
Anarcho = Anar Co.
Remember to take up a collection today after your last sermon ( ? )
G West: We'll chat later.
realisticman
5 years ago
Listen to The ChiefGlobe and Mail.
Globe and Mail.
The man with the PowerPoint presentation is miffed.
He is speaking to a large aboriginal conference and some of the attendees, including a few who hold high office, have straggled in.
“I can't stand people who are late,” he says into the microphone.
“Indian Time doesn't cut it.”
Some giggle, but no one is quite sure how far he is going to go. Just sit back and listen:
“My first rule for success is ‘Show up on time. My No. 2 rule for success is follow Rule No. 1.”
“If your life sucks, it's because you suck.” “Quit your sniffling.”
“Join the real world — go to school or get a job.”
“Get off of welfare. Get off your butt.”
He pauses, seeming to gauge whether he dare, then does.
“People often say to me, ‘How you doin'?' Geez — I'm working with Indians — what do you think?”
Now they are openly laughing ... applauding. Clarence Louie is everything that was advertised — and more.
“Our ancestors worked for a living,” he says. “So should you.”
He is, fortunately, aboriginal himself. If someone else stood up and said these things — the white columnist standing there with his mouth open, for example — “You'd be seen as a racist.”
Instead, Chief Clarence Louie is seen, increasingly, as one of the most interesting and innovative native leaders in the country — even though he avoids national politics.
He has come here to Fort McMurray because the aboriginal community needs, desperately, to start talking about economic development and what all this multibillion-dollar oil madness might mean, for good and for bad.
cont.
realisticman
5 years ago
cont.
Clarence Louie is chief — and CEO — of the Osoyoos Band in British Columbia's South Okanagan. He is 44 years old, though he looks like he would have been an infant when he began his remarkable 20-year-run as chief. He took a band that had been declared bankrupt and taken over by Indian Affairs and he has turned in into an inspiration.
In 2000, the band set a goal of becoming self-sufficient in five years. They're there.
The Osoyoos, 432 strong, own, among other things, a vineyard, a winery, a golf course and a tourist resort, and they are partners in the Baldy Mountain ski development. They have more businesses per capita than any first nation in Canada.
There are not only enough jobs for everyone, there are so many jobs being created that there are now members of 13 other tribal communities working for the Osoyoos. The little band contributes $40-million a year to the area economy.
Chief Louie is tough. He is as proud of the fact that his band fires its own people as well as hires them. He has his mottos pasted throughout the “Rez.” He believes there is “no such thing as consensus,” that there will always be those who disagree. And, he says, he is milquetoast compared to his own mother when it comes to how today's lazy aboriginal youth, almost exclusively male, should be dealt with.
“Rent a plane,” she told him, “and fly them all to Iraq. Dump 'em off and all the ones who make it back are keepers. Right on, Mom.”
The message he has brought here to the Chipewyan, Dene and Cree who live around the oil sands is equally direct: Get involved, create jobs — and meaningful jobs, not just “window dressing” for the oil companies.
“The biggest employer,” he says, “shouldn't be the band office.”
He also says the time has come to “get over it.” No more whining about 100-year-old failed experiments. No foolishly looking to the Queen to protect rights.
Louie says aboriginals here and along the Mackenzie Valley should not look at any sharing in development as “rocking-chair money” but as investment opportunity to create sustainable businesses. He wants them to move beyond entry-level jobs to real jobs they “earn” — all the way to the boardrooms. He wants to see “business manners” develop: showing up on time, working extra hours. The business lunch, he says, should be “drive through,” and then right back at it.
“You're going to lose your language and culture faster in poverty than you will in economic development,” he says to those who say he is ignoring tradition.
Tough talk, at times shocking talk given the audience, but on this day in this community, they took it — and, judging by the response, they loved it.
“Eighty per cent like what I have to say,” Louie says, “Twenty per cent don't. I always say to the 20 per cent, ‘Get over it. Chances are you're never going to see me again and I'm never going to see you again. Get some counselling.'”
realisticman
5 years ago
cont.
The first step, he says, is all about leadership. He prides himself on being “a stay-home chief who looks after the potholes in his own backyard” and wastes no time “running around fighting 100-year-old battles.
“The biggest challenge will be how you treat your own people."
“Blaming government? That time is over.”
Right to Bear
5 years ago
RM...Just some thoughts.
I wonder what Clarence Louie would say about all the cancers, (at this time off the charts), showing up heavily in the FN's people living up around the Oil Sands project?? Don't get me wrong RM, but for everything, there is a price to pay. How many FN's people will die from this industrial insanity taking place around their lands?? Will this be better for their culture in the long run, or if these cancers continue, will there be enough people to sustain their culture at all...??
Peace,
Bear
flattax
5 years ago
Anarcho
I throw it back at you. The top 20 accepted ideas (no dissent or other opinions allowed!) of Left Wing, State control junkies:
1. There is a monolithic creature called The Right which is reducable to its most evil form of neo-colonialism and slavery.
2. All believers in the right of Israel to exist, free markets, and minimal taxation are neocons.
3. The only capitalism that exists is on the backs of the poor or third world.
4. The only fair government that can help the poor is socialism...Communism and the eastern block is in the memory hole.
5. Government is always right, especially when they spend more money, taken from rich people and evil corporations anyway.
6. Global warming is happening and I refuse to hear anything else to the contrary. Debate closed.
7. Global Warming must be caused, not by solar activity, by the Evil West which is the root of it all because they drive SUVs and have a good standard of living.
8. Aboriginals should be admired, since they are victims.
9. The Europeans took their land.
10. They were here first, but this rule of "here first" only applies to First Nations, it does not apply to the Jews in Palestine.
11. We should save their culture by giving them lots of land to live on in the middle of nowhere, at the same time we get to call it apartheid and still blame it on white people.
12. Trade unions are good since we get paid more for working less (and get to stick it to The Man).
3. Poor people are good and are stuck in poverty because of social darwinism and evil capitalism.
14. Politicians know what is best for us - especially Jean Chretin and the Liberals.
15. Canada should stay out of the war in the middle east - we should wait until radical islam brings the war to us.
16. Muslims are never wrong.
17. Anti-Islam = criticism of radical islam or islamic terrorists.
18. Pro-Americanism = Fighting for western values of free speech, democracy and freedom.
19. When science agrees with my lust for social engineering and state control, it is science.
20. When it disagrees with my secret agenda it is paid for by the oil companies.
flattax
5 years ago
Dear Readers
Please note that the resident left wing socialist posts from G West, The Brain, anarcho, bob the cat and C.B. all insult and otherwise attempt to shut up people with different opinions.
They use words such as hater, racist, ignorant, etc. Go back and read the previous post in the thread to see for yourself.
I would argue that the people who use those words are just bullies describing themselves.
The right winger or "neocon" post by myself, capitalism or alive are well mannered, reasoned, and contain no personals slurs, insults or name calling.
I find this very curious...
Dear readers...do you believe anything the left has to say. It all seems to be based on intimidation!
maestro
5 years ago
Loss of a " family member "
A few weeks ago we lost a member of our " family..."
The person was of Japanese descent, but there was no blood nor in-law relationship.
So why do I say " family- member" ?
The person was approx. 80 years, old and a grandfather to a player on our team. Had had several strokes, took a walker to the games and silently cheered the grandson. Died rather suddenly, and ironically , the day after the team won the championship.
Talked to his son after the sad event...and we chatted about the Dad's life. Born in the same town where they lived, which lead me to ask about WW II and the way the Japanese were treated so badly treated,displaced and property confiscated and for me to logically conclude that his dad was one of those that were part of that.
The Son said yes , his Dad was part of that, it happened, but his Dad and family moved on , looked forward , that's the Japanese way. (BTW the son did not marry a person of their own ethnic background).
Any given group will have its progressive leaders, and others will unfortunately live in the past.
If the First Nations' want to move forward...many other groups have set, by example, historical lessons that are blind to colour, creed, culture, etc.
Canada is a house far too divided, we can't even keep one so-called " Founding Nations " succession of offspring happy...so how are we going to deal with three ...OR more...?
However, if some groups break ranks with the "lowest common denominator status- quo" and show, by example,that they can be an almost seemless part of the broader society as it evolves ...there is some hope.
Over to you Lefties...
G West
5 years ago
flattax
You're joking, right?
And maestro, did you Japanese friend's family accept the payment and apology of the Canadian government?
G West
5 years ago
just to refresh your memory flattax
This is something you posted that I happen to have kept a handy copy of:
Now, please, what part that could be considered well mannered, reasoned, respectful and absent personal slurs or name calling?
Enlighten the readers or I may have to post another example of your wisdom - the one where you suggest that the school system has been hijacked by two mysterious homosexuals.
G West
5 years ago
I think, by the way
That BC Dude's quote from Gandhi pretty much has you and yours dead to rights and that's precisely why you lose it as you so frequently do.
The truth, apparently, hurts.
ubiquitous
5 years ago
maestro
I am truly sorry to hear you lost a friend, or family member as you put it, but your post is a dangerous one. Perhaps, marginalized groups, such as First Nations feel that that past needs to be healed before they can, as you callously put it, move on. That kind of ethnocentric arrogance makes it hard to move on because people, like yourself, flathead, et al., can't seem to come to grips with history as it existed for First Nations.
I have to ask (rhetorically): If you found yourself at Auschwitz, would you ask if Jewish people should move on?
I wait (with baited breath) for your sarcastically laden, hyperbolic response. I can guess what it’ll be, but crack on anyway…
flattax
5 years ago
Gandi word play nonsense
The quote from Gandi was worthless and out of context. And I could not resist the urine joke. As rude as it is, it is true. I wanted to point out by that comment, that you cannot pick and chose a one or more theories or quotes whenever it suits you and leave the rest.
For example, western people believe acupuncture works, coming from the ancient chinese, an old and wise culture. But other aspects of traditional Chinese medecine they ignore, such as the tiger penis and verility connection. Selective amnesia is a hallmark of the left.
I have never called anybody who post on this board a name, or intimidated them. The same cannot be said especially of yourself, G West, or any of the other socialists I mentioned earlier.
I have never lost it on this board. And the name calling you do reflects on youself alone.
However, I seem to have pushed the brain and bob the cat over the edge a couple of times!
G West
5 years ago
SO you'd like me to post some more of your comments
If you're intimidated by facts, logic, evidence and coherent sentence structure that's too bad.
However, you also posted this:
As a contribution to a discussion about some innocent people who were killed in an accident on their way to work.
Perhaps we'll let the audience decide who, between us, is into " well mannered, reasoned, (and) contain(ing) no personals (sic) slurs, insults or name calling." [as you described yourself and others above us here]
Shall we?
Would you like to stop now or do you want me to post what you think of people who don't live in West Vancouver?
G West
5 years ago
And when you've finished
And when you've finished thinking about that, I'd appreciate you providing some examples of my calling anyone with whom I've had a disagreement a single name.
The brain
5 years ago
Good old fashioned mud slinging with bigots
Whoopie!
What can I say, Flattax. Sometimes a person just has to call a spade a spade.
Not much else to tell, here. You really are a racist bigot. You're own words are you're greatest condemnation. You're bitter, negatively sarcastic, and to put it bluntly, a loser until you change. I can honestly say that I hope you don't have children. Noone should have to be raised in the kind of environment you create here on the tyee.
And this left/right labelling by you, Maestro or anyone else... anyone can bury their own predjudice in histories self described brands of failure/opposition. Isn't it fun to bash any other historical failure in the efforts of hiding their own monikers of stupid?
If you catch my drift, what I'm trying to say is that two wrongs will never make a right. Left and right really are nothing more than exaggerated (and not so exaggerated) extremes of disfunctionality on paper and in practice. Ideally, anyone with brains would want to cherry pick the best of both and scrap the rest because adopting these distorted, extremist views of labelled left and right still leave behind their shit stains of abuse of power, wrecked environments and shitty disregard for all forms of life, never mind our own and the lives of our families and nations.
But the time certainly does come around when one has to call a spade a spade...
To consider me for an example as a lefty... even a righty. I gotta laugh. A christian doesn't comfortably sit with socialism/communism. Nor does a christian sit well with warmongers and racists. Geez, a stockholder like myself is suddenly not a capitalist? But to think that a monetary system designed with the ultimate goal of getting rich doesn't have its negatives...
Man, whoever wants to worship that kind of golden calf as "its the best we've got" is rather dullard slow, don't you think?
I've yet to see any other form of life paint themselves into a corner of having to participate in a monetary system or starve. Humanity is so smart.
Yah, Capitalism is a real holy grail. So perfect.
And things like Israel having the right to become a nation. Under who's terms? The U.S.? They've only spent close to 100 billion in the last 50 years on their "brand" of Israel, most of it going to promote war and the destruction of Israel's neighbors. Palestine is the largest prison in the world. And Lebanon? Heard the news? Israel doesn't happen to treat their neighbors very well with american bought bombs.
Another 6 dead Canadians in Afganistan...
Yah, I'm sure were all politically behind that one. Anyone keeping track of the innocents that have been slaughtered by Nato? Not important enough to report, I guess. But then... it was never really about them anyways, right, Flattax? And in the final analysis, with every word I read, its still "all about you". I sincerely hope you find help with that...
G West:
Don't tempt me. :-)
flattax
5 years ago
G west and the brain
You like to dredge up old quotes and post them out of context...reposting out of context like this is sloppy writing, similar to getting the facts wrong.
Insinuating that I personally have a problem is an insult, but like i have said, it reflects more on you.
I will not even bother to comment on the brain's rant, too off topic. Let's get back on topic. When I reread this thread, it was G West that started to take it off topic!
Read some of my earlier posts from this thread. They stand true and unprotested. Any takers for a logical and coherent rebuttal?
realisticman
5 years ago
ubiquitous
Your analogy is quite distasteful and exagerated, as you well know. It's also an analogy that is predicated on time and moments in time.
More jews today are moving to Germany than are moving to Israel.
Canadian aborigines will, eventually, get past their history and move on as many jews have, same as others like the Burgundians, the Visigoths, the Carolingians, the Lombards, the Caledonians, the Picts, etc., etc., etc.
G West
5 years ago
Like this one? From this thread
Political correctness is killing out culture
flattax
2 days ago
I can't beleive they are teaching so much political correct revisionsist history in the schools. This is why so many people, whoever can afford it, opt for private schools. So their children can be prepared for universtity, not for a life that the left wing socialist state our planners would have for them.
Why did we let two homosexuals hijack our school system? This is another example of what should not be taught in the schools.
Ever hear of European History? It is glossed over in favor of political correct programming these days. It is too white.
What about science?
These children should be taught creativity and science, not white guilt.
Let's compare our schools to Asian schools for a second, particularly the Japanese, where it is competitive, difficult and focused on the Science. We will easily see why we in the West are falling behind. Being out manufactured and having the Asian countries develop so fast.
These left wing touchy feely scools do not prepare children for the future, armed with a tool kit of logic and science. They prepare children to be blue collar workers in the mill, like ther fathers were. While children of rich parents go to a private school and graduate with a great tool kit for success. This only perpetuates the class system over generations.
Teaching things like this in schools, will keep the children in the trailer park and on the reserve. Is this what the social planners had in mind?
Besides, we will see how this school does in the Fraser institure(sic) school report, the only objective and independent evaluation of scools(sic).
Are you really sure you want to continue this?
G West
5 years ago
And, flattax, what exactly was that
And, flattax, what exactly was it you were saying about sloppy writing?
Just one question for you. Why would teaching young first nations children to be proud of their art, their music, their myths and their cultural and spiritual traditions be a bad thing?
I'd appreciate reading a couple of well-reasoned paragraphs in support of the proposition that teaching such things would, as you so expressively and plainly put it:
"...keep the children in the trailer park and on the reserve." And further that this formula is subscribed to by any "social planners" anywhere.
Before accusing others of practicing the kind of thing that so accurately characterizes your own approach to what you call argument it would be a good idea to think twice or even three times. In my view, some milk, once spilled, is better left on the ground to dissipate.
SharingIsGood
5 years ago
private schools do not help natives
Private schools do not help natives: they perpetuate croneyism. Private schools help the privileged maintain the status quo. Public school teachers as well as university historians have learned that there is more than one truth: nobody can objectively "view" an event from all points while also understanding (the context of) each point's history. It is mathmatically imposible as a point has no thickness. Think of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle multiplied by an ever-expanding cosmos of minutiae. One can not grasp it all, so to be fair, we must attempt to understand another culture's truths with the values that exist for that culture. Who are we to say what is important to others? (That's what GW Bush told us needed to be done with Iraq - create a US-style goverment for the people who invented our alphabet and most of our algebra and geometry! The Americans lapped that up like the good little trained seals they are.)
We must be careful to judge what has been done in the past, and what others deserve: we are blinded by our own histories, our cultures and our own belief structures.
The above being true, we must also apply our own laws (and native laws/customs) to what has been done in the past to our native brothers and sisters. Have they ever been (and can they ever be) fairly compensated for the attrocities that Euro-Canadians have committed against these people? I don't believe it is possible to undo all the damage; but we must do what we can if we are good people. Further, it cannot happen on our time-table. They have been wronged for generations and many in the residential schools went untrained as to how to be parents and how to be loved. Hitler's mistreatment of the Jews and WWII lasted less than a decade. The native peoples of North and South America have been wronged for hundreds of years after first having their cultures decimated by disease (90% of the native peoples of the America's were wiped out by the diseases brought by the Europeans). The native people of Canada never fought a war; they were just rounded up, and had their land taken. They were never given due process, and they were even not treated as people until after the blacks in the USA were given those rights! We must open our hearts; we must be kind; and we must be patient while these people continue through their grieving and healing processes in their noble attempts to make sense of the cruelties bestowed upon them.
climber
5 years ago
Great, thanks realistic
Chief Louie is THE man, I have heard him, he is an inspiration to all people, of all races. It would be great if his message was brought to high schools, get of your ass and do something!!!! Kind of intersting that none of the usual whiners went anywhere near anything he said, is it because it makes too much sense, or is it because of who he is? Get of your ass and do something, move ahead, move forward.
SharingIsGood
5 years ago
people know their place
Re: climber's last comment about "usual whiners" going near what Chief Louie said:
Perhaps, Climber, those usual people to which you derogatorily refer understand that it is not their place to tell the First Nations people when and how fast they must heal from the wounds visited upon them by Euro-Canadians. I just spoke about this in my last post. Did you read it?
The lowest form of discourse is debate. The highest is form is dialogue. Perhaps if you move your discourse more toward dialogue ( by being kindly inviting and respectful of others ) you may get more people to wish to speak with you. Perhaps you could reread my previous post.
flattax
5 years ago
Q&A
Q. Why would teaching young first nations children to be proud of their art, their music, their myths and their cultural and spiritual traditions be a bad thing?
A. Nothing wrong with being proud of your culture, although this pride will by its very nature, cloud your judgement. Pride in culture closes the mind, and fills it with pre conceived notions. And I say this not only about aboriginal pride, but the pride that all cultures feel about themselves. A few days ago, I made some blunt but accurate statements about Canada here and someone was so proud, his mind was closed, and he threatened me with violence! That is why kids should be taught facts and raw science and logic, so they can figure things out for themselves. Teaching political correctness closes their mind.
To also teach this Aboriginal "culture" in schools is a complete waste of time. There is only so much time in the day and kids can only take in so much. I consider the resurrection and teaching of Welsh just as poverty enducing as is the teaching of Aboriginal languages. (I know some small towns still spoke Welsh, but now it is taught all over Wales). It is better they learn Frech, German or Chinese! Those are languages that can get you ahead in life, an aboriginal language, or Welsh never will. Ditto for Aboriginal culture, what little is left of it. Teach the Aboriginal kids how to fit in and succeed in Western society. They need to be outward looking, not inward looking. Let them think for themselves, don't teach them what to think.
That is how the political correct social planners are destroying Aboriginal culture: by killing them with kindness (to use a cliche) which has the effect of making them unprepared for life in the wider world. I find it ironic that the school district shoving this curriculim down kids throats (Mission School District No. 75) is also one of the worse performing school districts in BC.
G West
5 years ago
Seems to me that this:
In Shields's words, must be cutting a little too close to the bone for you flattax. You still haven’t told me what’s wrong with treating native people respectfully.
Since that method has had such disastrous effects, I can't see what your objection to an approach the values another culture is such a bad idea.
As for the ideas put forward by Chief Louie, they have some limited value - just as do the emanations from a hired gun like Tony Robbins. Motivational speakers create smoke but, as a rule, a lot less fire.
My view, since you asked, is that the native variety isn't much more valuable in the long run than the white kind.
anarcho
5 years ago
Some conservative!
Yes, we notice that the Quebecois, Catalans, and Basques, who have struggled to retain their languages, culture and way of being are doing rather well compared with how they once were. I would suggest they are doing rather well in no small measure because they did take the trouble to preserve these. I also find it amusing that someone who probably thinks himself a conservative or righest of some sort should be against preserving one's traditions. But then you lot aren't really into preserving much other than a few retrogressive social ideas. Otherwise its shove everything into the corporate state meatgrinder.
climber
5 years ago
Limited Value????
G West-So, what the great chief says has "limited value", how do you figure that? Limited how? The guy is doing it, making shit happen, what the f are the other "leaders" doing? Crying about the past, using guilt and pc bullshit to get what they think is best for them. Helping white lawyers on the gravy train of never ending "talks", paid for, of course by us for example. Get off your ass and do something. Now Sharing is Good, perhaps my impatience, brought about by observation has come through, sorry, now, what about what the chief said? Can you go there?
G West
5 years ago
because all he's doing is giving
Because all he's doing is giving a motivational speech, just like Tony Robbins and similar speakers always do - they blow through a bunch of speaking engagements with simplistic analyses of complex situations and then move on to the next speaking engagement.
Talk is cheap climber, what will work in some situations where there are plenty of resources available - as for example the foothills area west of Calgary - will not work in other areas. I’m glad there are a few success stories – they help illustrate the depth of the real problems in comparison.
Another problem arises from the fact that Natives have almost no visibility in the mainstream press.
Here's an article about that you might be interested in:
http://www.rrj.ca/issue/1998/summer/266/
As for native leaders, I look upon them in pretty much the same way I do non-native leaders. Some are ok, others are worthless.
Moreover, I think most of the complaining and crying about the past is not coming from natives. It's coming from white folks who keep saying that most natives have nothing to complain about and are just lazy slugs anyway.
As to your remark about lawyers, I agree completely. No one has refuted my suggestion that the costs to a great many native tribes of the treaty process to the beginning of 2006 had already used up between 40 and 60 per cent of the potential value of the settlements on the table at that time and it's has gotten a lot worse since then.
The lawyers are a big part of the problem.
But, what frightens me more than anything is that this process is being driven by business and industry for business and industry's reasons and that, when all is said and done that we may well have ended up by cheating the native people of this province all over again and not allowed them to address their needs in their own appropriate way.
ubiquitous
5 years ago
realistictman
My analogy was purposely exaggerated. I don't think that the two situations really compare in the context of this discussion. Why? Because there has been acknowledgement of past atrocities against Jewish people during Nazi Germany. Here in Canada there's barely been any acknowledgement, only anger from the status quo any time a First Nations band/organization seek some kind of recognition of their past - i.e. in the form of land claims. Sorry you found my post distasteful, but what I find distasteful is the notion from maestro and his buddies that some imaginary statute of limitation has past and it's time to "move on". That, sir, is distasteful.
anarcho
5 years ago
Some Thoughts
Rather than fighting the trolls, I began to think about conservatism and what happened to it.
The loss of the conservative critique of capitalism and the state has seen socialists and anarchists taking up those areas, but at the same time without jettisoning Enlightenment values and universalism. It is the socialists and anarchists who have solidarity with Aboriginal people, and their traditions, indeed all the historically oppressed peoples. These same socialists are at the fore-front of preserving the natural environment, at one time a profoundly conservative concept. So too, preserving the family farm and small business in the face of agribusiness and the corporation. The socialists stand for the individual against capitalist collectivism! The farmers market, the coop, the neighborhood, the use of local products, encouraging of local culture rather than corporate culture, the slow food movement, fair trade, I could go on and on, but all of these stand for the particular against corpoporate homogenization, the small as opposed to the grandiose, quality, as opposed to quantity, and dignity of craft as opposed to being a wage slave for some vast corporate bureaucracy.
There is much hope in this. The contemporary non-conservatism offers only to strip away everything that makes us human, everything that makes us individual, and to de-sacralize all existence. A dead, meaningless life of consumerism and slavery. The old socialists, and to a lesser extent the anarchists, of 90 years ago were too caught up in their universals – the proletariat, the world revolution, historical materialism – and underlying this, positivism and a notion of ultimate and inexorable social evolution. The particular was overlooked. The small was to be pushed aside for central planning. The farmers and small business people were "doomed clases", and what they wanted did not fit into the Marxist rubric. Thus when the social, political and economic crisis of imperialism manifested itself in the years during and following WW1, the small, the particular, the farmers, the lovers of the forest, the petty bourgeois, did not opt for socialism, or even for the anarcho-syndicalist union, but for fascism, which spoke about what they wanted to hear, but of course speeded their destruction.
Today, the "fascists" are in power. Their corporate state seeks to grind us, and everything else, down. The potential is now there for virtually the whole of humanity, except the rulers and their toadies to oppose this sociopathic machine.
SharingIsGood
5 years ago
Like I said before, Climber
I really hate to quote myself, but:
"We must open our hearts; we must be kind; and we must be patient while these people continue through their grieving and healing processes in their noble attempts to make sense of the cruelties bestowed upon them."
It is their grieving and healing process, and if we aspire to be an advanced civilization, we will understand that and give them time they need and deserve to heal in their own way. As far as I have been able to surmise, the First Nations peoples lived here for thousands of years without neurotically having to hurry any process. They lived a healthier process with nature. Perhaps it is time we learned from them.
As a Euro-Canadian, my telling First Nations people to get on with it and do things the way you want them to is not my place. They have been the victims of genocide and rape and thievery. I am the offspring of perpetrators of those violent and unlawful acts. I can ethically do nothing more than assistance in helping them find heath and joy. It is not my place to begin to tell a First Nations person how he or she ought live. It will never be. That said, I do work with First Nations people, and I do expect as much veracity as can be had when we interact. I do this out of respect for truth, their truth, and mine. I never force my truths upon them. Together, we get much done. We share much in common, but I will never pretend to know what is best - I let them tell me what is best for them, and then I look for ways to support that.
SharingIsGood
5 years ago
anarcho, your post of two hours ago..
Thank you for some poetic words worth heeding; well said!
The brain
5 years ago
Rather than fight... open our hearts...
Nah. Fighting, insults, putdowns and justified anger work for me just fine.
I wasn't insinuating you have personal problems, slowpoke. I was spelling it out in spades!!! You've got some deep personal problems! And in case you hadn't quite caught on yet, I wasn't being nice about it!
How does it feel, by the way, to have someone label you as a racist bigot? Cause that's what you are. You're words spell it out in spades, Flattax. Its either that, or you're soft in the head.
Probably both.
You don't mind if I quote what you said a mere 4 hours ago, by chance?
On one hand, you say "native thoughts and culture is a waste of time." On the other hand, you say, "let them think for themselves, don't teach them what to think." And in every way in the past the theme is the same with you. Native assimilation of "western ways" and destruction of their culture. Don't spend a dime on their culture. And geez, its worked so very well, don't you think?
Yah, we've been killing them with kindness, alright. Just ask any native on a reserve in what way we've been "killing them with kindness."
And our justice systems are so appreciative of the ways in which to pass sentence on natives in this country. What's the percentage of natives to whites doing time in our penal system again?
Killing them with kindness...
There is so little I'll ever be able to take seriously from you, Flattax. You're that lost in space. And there's no need to be kind about it. Not much point, really.
Right to Bear
5 years ago
Their "old ways" are what could save us all...
HOTEVILLA, Ariz. - From Hopiland, a spiritual vortex for Native people, spiritual leaders Dan Evehema and Thomas Banyacya became the voice of the voiceless: the birds and animals. Warning of the impending apocalypse, they urged all people of good hearts to join them.
Even in their last years, Evehema and Banyacya warned that material greed and ignoring spiritual truth results in climate change, and, ultimately, the destruction of the world.
Hopi Snake Priest Evehema said the disease in the world today is greed, and the final insult for this country's aboriginal people is the loss of ceremonial land.
''We are now faced with great problems, not only here but throughout the land. Ancient cultures are being annihilated. Our people's lands are being taken from them. Why is this happening? It is happening because many have given up or manipulated their original spiritual teachings.
''The way of life that the Great Spirit has given to all people of the world, whatever your original instructions, are not being honored. It is because of this great sickness called greed, which infects every land and country,'' Evehema said, at the age of 105, in a statement to all humanity.
''Now we are at the very end of our trail. Many people no longer recognize the true path of the Great Spirit. They have, in fact, no respect for the Great Spirit or for our precious Mother Earth, who gives us all life.''
cont.
Right to Bear
5 years ago
cont.
Evehema said Hopi long ago were told that someone would go to the moon and bring something back. Because of this, nature would show signs of losing its balance.
''Now we see that coming about. All over the world, there are now many signs that nature is no longer in balance. Floods, drought, earthquakes and great storms are occurring frequently and causing widespread suffering.
''Now we must look upon each other as brothers and sisters. There is no more time for divisions among people.''
Evehema said there is no freedom of the press for traditional Hopi speaking the truth because newspapers only publish what the government wants printed. He said the leaders in the White House and the Glass House (United Nations) have been warned of what is to come, but have not listened.
''So, as our prophecy says, it must be up to the people with good pure hearts that will not be afraid to help us to fulfill our destiny in peace for this world.''
Banyacya was among the Motee Sinom (Hopi for first people) who urged the United Nations in 1992 to listen. Banyacya said traditional Hopi follow the spiritual path given by Massau'u (the Great Spirit).
''We made a sacred covenant to follow his life plan at all times, which includes the responsibility of taking care of this land and life for his divine purpose. We have never made treaties with any foreign nation, including the United States, but for many centuries we have honored this sacred agreement. Our goals are not to gain political control, monetary wealth nor military power, but rather to pray and to promote the welfare of all living beings and to preserve the world in a natural way.''
In 1948, traditional Hopi spiritual leaders chose Banyacya and others to carry the message forward. Repeating the wisdom, Banyacya said the Creator made the first world in perfect balance, but humans turned away from moral and spiritual principles and only a handful survived the earthquakes.
The mistakes were repeated in the second world, and freezing in the great ice age destroyed the people. The third world lasted a long time and, as in the previous worlds, the people spoke one language. They invented technologies still unknown to modern man, but eventually turned away from natural laws and pursued material things.
''They gradually turned away from natural laws, pursued only material things, and finally only gambled while they ridiculed spiritual principles. No one stopped them from this course, and the world was destroyed by the great flood that many nations still recall in their ancient history and religious teachings.
''The elders said again only small groups escaped and came to this fourth world where we now live. Our world is in terrible shape again even though the Great Spirit gave us different languages and sent us to four corners of the world and told us to take care the Earth and all that is in it.''
Banyacya said mankind is in the final days of the prophecy.
Right to Bear
5 years ago
cont.
''What have you, as individuals, as nations and as the world body, been doing to take care of this Earth?'' Banyacya asked the United Nations.
''In the Earth today, humans poison their own food, water and air with pollution. Many of us, including children, are left to starve. Many wars are still being fought. Greed and concern for material things is a common disease.''
Banyacya said Hopi foretold of the ''gourd of ashes'' (atomic bomb) that destroyed thousands in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Hopi believe that the Persian Gulf would have been the third great war if use of the worst weapons had not been stopped.
''We do have a choice. If you, the nations of this Earth, create another great war, the Hopi believe we humans will burn ourselves to death with ashes.
''Nature itself does not speak with a voice that we can easily understand. Neither can the animals and birds we are threatening with extinction talk to us. Who in this world can speak for nature and the spiritual energy that creates and flows through all life?''
Banyacya said it is necessary for human beings that have not separated themselves from the land and nature to speak out.
Finally, he said, the first people and the spirit of the ancestors are giving loud warnings. He pointed out that there are increasing floods, hurricanes; hail storms, climate changes and earthquakes.
''Even animals and birds are warning us with strange changes in their behavior, such as the beaching of whales. Why do animals act like they know about the Earth's problems and most humans act like they know nothing?
''If we humans do not wake up to the warnings, the great purification will come to destroy this world just as the previous worlds were destroyed.''
Evehema and Banyacya died within three weeks of one another in early 1999. Evehema died at the age of 108 on Jan. 15, 1999. Banyacya, born in 1910, died on Feb. 6, 1999.
Their voices live on.
maestro
5 years ago
G West:
Re: the person
Didn't ask about the payment,ie if they recieved it, and I won't.
The point of the conversation was a realization this person had deep roots in the area, and thus had to have been victimized by wartime racism.
This Japanese person was part of an unfortunate portion of history, but actually came home back to the very same community , re- integrated and prospered like many of his peers. Much like the Japanese did in Japan after WWII. Much like people of many other backgrounds have done also.
Good for A-L-L of them.
maestro
5 years ago
Ubiquitous:
B-L-E-S-S you...Ubi
( and a separate blessing for A-L-L Lefties too ).
flattax
5 years ago
Bless the lefties
Back to topic after that copy and paste infomercial from Right to Bear:
My earlier statements still stand true in this thread...
I propose that the province fire all the management of the Mission School board and replace them with people that can do an adequate job educating children and preparing them for the future.
That is how the political correct social planners are destroying Aboriginal culture: by killing them with kindness (to use a cliche) which has the effect of making them unprepared for life in the wider world. I find it ironic that the school district shoving this curriculim down kids throats (Mission School District No. 75) is also one of the worse performing school districts in BC.
maestro
5 years ago
Ubi's " exaggeration" :
My grandfather worked for a Jewish businessman in Europe whose factory had been confiscated during the 20 th Century World Wars. After the WW 's had concluded, measures were actively and rather expeditiously taken that property previously confiscated was returned to the original owners. This aforementioned Jewish businessman had his factory returned to him and he continued on, and he also hired back my grandfather.
That entails a concept of ownership entrenched within that trans European culture. However, note that once the Wars concluded, reparatione etc. also moved forward. Perhaps justice was not delayed, hence not denied, the guilty parties were identified and justice was applied as best as it could be under the given circumstances. For arguments sake, lets say within 5 years after the War concluded the process actively started on what was an admittedly huge case- by -case reparations issue.
As a segue, most of our family came to this new country called Canada, right after WW II . None of us were around when these so-called legal document First Nations Treaties were signed, it appears many of them were almost 100 years old back then...yet now we are approaching close to 7 decades in this country. Now, since these Treaties were signed...the landscape has changed drastically, the population has grown exponentially, and now someone or some parties have decided this First Nations Treaty and Land Claims issue must "now" be settled.
Has the horse left the barn...or did the barn and the barn door ever actually exist? It is interesting that Ubiquitous mentioned the Statute of Limitations...why doesn't it apply here as well in a purely legal sense ?
Seems to me the guilty parties who so-called shafted the First Nations are both (i)long gone and (ii) laughing all the way to the bank, but this so-called legal obligation burden is passed onto the rest of us in subsequent generations via the legal continuum inherent in the Gov't AND the People relationship. Maybe we should place a lien on Her Majesty's assets and sell them off, ie Regina and her heirs as this happened under THEIR watch, and the MacBlo heirs and shareholders,...and the Alcan's and the Dunsmuir's etc. et al.
For those of you Lefties that truly feel that the First Nations were wronged and should be compensated, I challenge you to lead by example. I will presume you live in BC, many of you own property, please sequester a Notary Public or a Solicitor and sign over your self -defined "ill gotten" assets to the nearest First Nations Band. That would be a seemless and consistent segue to your political persuasion, your personal philosophy and your arguments. Time to get out of the armchair and Lefties L-E-A-D.
(Cont'd)
ubiquitous
5 years ago
Maestro
You ask why now? Well, this didn't just start out of thin air. I've got a busy day away from the computer, so this'll be short. This didn't just start happening, it's been going on for a looooong time. Check with the Nisga'a. How long have they been fighting for aboriginal title? How many times has the western legal system shut them down with arbitrary decisions because the First Nation sense of landownership didn't coincide with the European definition? Even when the Berger commission finally agreed that First Nations actually did have a system of legal tender (despite what flatty would say) that existed since time immemorial (if you really want to put a time stamp on it), it still took a long time before anything more was done. It has nothing to do with time passing Maestro. It has to do with our western legal system finally recognizing that the past had yet to be held accountable.
And drop the whole step-up-to-the-plate-you-lefties bit. It's old and it's a copout.
G West
5 years ago
Maestro you don't know what you're talking about
Why don't you read the Delgamuukw decision?
It is the law of the land.
http://scc.lexum.umontreal.ca/en/1997/1997rcs3-1010/1997rcs3-1010.html
When you've done that, here's another excellent resource:
http://www.bctreaty.net/files/pdf_documents/delgamuukw.pdf
This has nothing to do with European history but it does impinge on your own incomplete understanding of the law and the operation of precedent.
maestro
5 years ago
Ubi's exaggeration (Cont'd)
I myself look forward to the PRESS releases of parties like G West, Ubiquitous, Alciabides, Alciabides Jr. , A. Cameron, Tyee's fence sitting The Brain , SFU's Anar Co....etc. etc. gladly signing over their self - defined " Ill- Gotten " gains over TO the nearest First Nations bands...OR else please "cease and desist" in any more " Preaching -sans -Practice "...aka Hypocrisy...( = certifiable / typical Leftie )
The rest of us can peruse the proceedings as they unfold...and take notes , perhaps analyze how this potential precedent unfolds if it actually does. No obligation otherwise.
ALSO: Perhaps we can draft a private Member Bill " 4Q -L -2007" to submit to our elected representatives that we start (and stop ?) at the Left end of the political spectrum and its own disciples towards confiscatory/expropriated compensation of THEIR personal assets to First Nations groups ...all you Lefties have Jack Laytons or Carol James Tel. No. on speed dial , "right " ?(Redundant)
PS:....Please Lefties...don't disappoint us A-G-A-I-N. Lead us, SVP.
===================================
SAMPLE: OWNERSHIP TRANSFER / MINI- TREATY
I, G WEST,aka Alciabides, aka , ____ ,___ ,____ ,___ ,___ et al do hereby relinquish any/all legal possesion and formal ownership of all my earthly and (?) possessions to the Canadian First Nations groups .
I perform the aforementioned legal transfer with clear conscience and am of sound mind and body in full possession of all my faculties. However, I am also considering transferring them too, I am such a bad guilt -ridden person.
Exceptions;
(i) Autographed Che Guevarra T Shirt
(ii) Cuban Medicare pass.
(iii) WAC Bennett quote book from the Fraser Institute.
Signed G WEST_______
Witnessed by:
Ubiquitous aka ___aka ____aka___.....
The Brain aka ____aka____aka____.....
Anar Co. aka_____aka_____aka____....
Dated: YESTERDAY/ 2007
maestro
5 years ago
Don't play cute, and fast , and loose G West.
Don't play cute G. West...
Your previous incarnation "side -show act" still vividly resonates. Live with the consequences, especially the "C" word.
You are a one -note subjective propoganda spewing machine routine, and leading others astray with it.
You really are way over your head in this issue, as well as many others. That is becoming Jim Jones-ish clear the more you post.
G West
5 years ago
Just read the material maestro
And then you won't sound so utterly foolish on this subject.
This may not be the way they do things in Europe - it IS the way things are done here in Canada.
You're the one spewing propaganda my friend, I'm just suggesting you don't know the facts and providing you with a way to remedy that deficiency.
We have another old saying here: You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
The rest is up to you. This is not one-note subjective stuff, it has nothing to do with me. It's the LAW of the land. Period.
climber
5 years ago
G West, and others of his
G West, and others of his ilk, the Oysoyoos band, and its chief are leading the way. To dismiss this man as merely a motivational speaker is sad. He started speaking to groups because he is invited to share his bands success and how they MADE it happen. Read the article about this man and his band again, being a speaker is a small part of this mans life, unlike Tony Robbins who derives his income from talking. Maestro, great, of course when these types get pressured to give up "thier" property its not cool, at all, its always the other, Govt=us, that has to pay. Too funny.
Stump
5 years ago
get a dictionary Maestro
I don't think sequester means what ever the heck you think it means.
As to First Nations' treaty settlements... perhaps it's a complex and time-consuming issue? Which, coupled with the current culture's inability to face up to its inheritance of stolen land, might tend to draw out the process.
But, that doesn't make for good Fraser Institute talking points I guess. BTW, why do they have to pay you by the word?
bob the cat
5 years ago
Grand Gordo
Thats quite a bit of hardware The wise ole Chief is wearing around his neck could it actually be the Grand Gordo medal of wonderful just like a whiteman achievement by an aboriginal...an example to the rest of `em..youbetchum boss. I no bad injun boss.. send `em to Iraq lazy buggers you betchum!
maestro
5 years ago
OBOY !!! Leftie Lather n' blather :the sequel
I guess the Leftie Posse' has arisen... time to re-load the punch bowl . Someone obviously either tied the strings back to the cans so they could communicate, or they are sharing the same Laptop ....again.
Keep spewin' Lad-sky's, expose thine ignorance oh Uber- Clueless ones.
It's so nauseatingly obvious.
Quit deflecting as per usual G West,...don't amuse us with your brand name NON due - diligence stereotyping. You and the Leftie posse' either (i)sign it over to the First Nations's or (ii) " we -can't- hear -you ".
Got you "preaching -sans -practice" hypocrites nervous...don't we ?. What are you Lefties , a bunch of racist / bigots ?
PS Try the current TYEE Farmworkers post as another podium to spew even more Uber-Leftie ignorance. Ya up to it Lefties ?
G West
5 years ago
Sorry climber, I disagree, heroes are over-rated
But, I'm not trying to put the chief down. Accidents of nature and geography have a lot more to do with success than most successful people like to admit.
You can read Warren Buffet on that subject if you don't believe me.
My comments stand but they're not in any way meant to denigrate Chief Louie. Even Tony Robbins has some limited and transitory value - just like Billy Graham. The whole myth of western capitalist culture is built upon the dream that miracles happen - why otherwise would people buy a lottery ticket when the odds of winning are 14 million to 1?
maestro
5 years ago
Climber:
Good to see you back.
Hoping you would return when you had the time.
Martha Stewarts' boyfriend just went up into space as a Space Tourist. Time to pass the hat and send these free-loading Lefties back to Planet Leftie.
G. West and his ilk can either sign the legal form I generously posted above ...or STFU. Notice how they all deftly A-V-O-I-D it...I ain't seen such tap dancing since the late great Gregory Hines in his prime (R.I.P). That rock most of them Lefty bigoted hypocrites crawl out from under is probably on First Nations land.
G West
5 years ago
Still don't know what you're talking about eh maestro
Maybe you could get one of those lawyers of your acquaintance you're always talking about to help you sift through the Delgamuukw decision.
Or you could just read the layman's guide from the treaty process itself.
Either way, it might mean you would stop spinning your wheels and illustrating how little you actually know about this country.
flattax
5 years ago
G West
You continually change topics. Plus the following comment from you about maestro is pretty hypocritical:
"The rest is up to you. This is not one-note subjective stuff, it has nothing to do with me. It's the LAW of the land. Period."
Response:
When you agree with something we get a comment like the above. When you disagree, you defend the "disadvantaged" of society by name calling. Say seomthing G West does not agree with and you are evil or racist or ignorant!
You never countered maestro at all. His comments still stand as valid and as truth. You cannot poke any holes in his statements or his logic. You are not up to the challenge so you change topics.
So, back to topic:
I propose that the province fire all the management of the Mission School board and replace them with people that can do an adequate job educating children and preparing them for the future.
That is how the political correct social planners are destroying Aboriginal culture: by killing them with kindness (to use a cliche) which has the effect of making them unprepared for life in the wider world. I find it ironic that the school district shoving this curriculim down kids throats (Mission School District No. 75) is also one of the worse performing school districts in BC.
Does anybody care to say that The Mission School board is doing a good job? That they are competent? No. Because they are clearly not competent. They are floundering and the children who go to school in that district are floundering too. They are doing the poor parents and children there a disservice. If I was a parent there I would be livid and would put my child in a private school.
bob the cat
5 years ago
Big Lyndon
Responding to a question by the press near the end of the Vietnam War (I`ve heard from very reliable sources) Lyndon Johnson said, " You ask why we are in Viet Nam?)
Then unzipping his fly he produced his sizable whazoo (Johnson) an pronounced, " THIS is why we`re in Vietnam"
I find much of maestro and his group of schoolboys arguments, absolutes and truths to be at or below this level of discourse.
BLONDE PITBULL
5 years ago
giving it back...
Sure, Maestro, I'd give my land back if I owned it. Real easy to say, dontcha think, since I don't own it. As for the inspirational chief I'm so glad his band had assets that could be beneficial in todays society however thats not the case for all bands. I'm glad to know that his momma had the strength to get past the harm that has hurt the majority of the native folks, and raise her kids to a happier, healthier level . Or maybe she missed out on the whole residental school thing all together. Hard to comment on what is unknown to me but the simple point is that one size fits all rarely if ever works for any group of people...
G West
5 years ago
No flattax I did not change the subject
I think your points about efforts to give native culture a place in the educational methodology and curriculum in this province are ignorant and ill-informed. There is no point in my wasting my time arguing with you about it. Ignorance is it's own reward I'm afraid.
As far as the maestro is concerned, I don't think he has a clue about what the law of the land - (because that's what the Supreme Court's Delgamuukw decision is) - actually says about native relations with the official and unofficial government and real property infrastructure in this province and in this country.
What is the point for me, or anyone else to argue with people who don't know what they're talking about and are rude to boot?
To give either of you any more time on this subject is to waste it entirely. Yesterday I had to spend 10 minutes simply disabusing you of the idea that you're a rational interlocutor.
It's simply a waste of time and I have other more important things to do.
realisticman
5 years ago
Lefties of the World, Back Off
It's the Economy, stupid!
http://www.naaf.ca/html/c_louis_e.html
Chief Clarence Louie, Business & Community Development
British Columbia
Since 1985, when first becoming Chief of the Osoyoos Indian Band in British Columbia, Clarence Louis has consistently emphasized economic development as the fundamental method for improving his people's standard of living. Under his direction, the Band has become a multi-faceted corporation that owns and manages numerous successful businesses. In addition to the businesses, the band is enjoying socio-economic development that is vastly improving the community's social, educational and health needs. Under his leadership, there is virtually zero unemployment. The band continues to increase its revenue each year and decrease its need for social assistance. Chief Louis created and manages eight businesses, including, a golf course, a construction company that builds both on and off reserve commercial and residential projects, a forestry company that logs 30,000 cubic metres annually, the largest privately owned vineyard in Canada, a convenience store, and a residential and agricultural leasing company. One of the bands largest projects has been its eco-tourism resort campground and RV Park that includes a marina and a 120-room full service hotel and gas bar. The cash flow generated from the businesses helps fund the Medication Fund, the Adult In-Home Care Program, a Recreation Complex, an Education Fund and a Patient Travel Fund. Ecology remains a high priority for Chief Louie with 890 acres set aside for water quality, fish and wildlife protection. Chief Louis has been recognized for his work with many honours and has extensive board memberships. He has been featured in The Economist, in Profit Magazine and in Maclean's as one of 50 Canadians to Watch. Chief Louis is a man who understands that economic development is the way of the future.
Right to Bear
5 years ago
Out of how many acres?
"Chief Louie with 890 acres set aside for water quality, fish and wildlife protection".
Out of how many?? Are they cutting sustainably...translation NO CLEAR CUTS?? If they are soft touch and selectively logging some of their lands, and have kicked all whitey companies off, and everything they do is done in consideration of the earth and it's inhabitants, and they have they implemented much of their profits into social programs for their people. then maybe their approach is much improved from the exploitive and unethical ways being practiced by the big white corps. I hope so…
Financial gains are easy to get in our society if one chooses, but traditional, cultural, spiritual, and environmental losses are often unrecoverable as they are easily swallowed up by the Big Corporate pigs...and that is sad.
Peace,
Bear
maestro
5 years ago
Blonde PitBull:
Good, you are exempt and absolved by Yours Truly LOL.
However, if you want to educate yourself.., there are many paths to pursue self - enlightenment. Roll up the sleeves like some of us tend to do.
If one wants to listen to the absolute tripe by many on this subject, continue.
A certain TYEE Know -it -all tried to play silly games on this in the past ...too bad...it would've been worth sharing, but this TYEE cult leader and their ilk prefer marinating in the BS.
You at least show an open mind.
Chat more later.
apathysux
5 years ago
The problem was, is...
... and always has been that non-native corpratist and governement types have always thought they could just buy the FN off. From day one the idea has been to get rid of the native problem one way or another. This is no longer working, because, folks, it is NOT about the money. It is the principle!!!
Flattax, What you fail to acknowledge most FN children did not get to learn about their culture at home because the Europeans tried to eradicate it. This in some ways never stopped. This is an on-going tragedy that cannot be compared to the Jews of WWII. When the war was over the crimes against Jews by the govt of Germany stopped. The crimes against FN have not stopped and in many ways are still happening.
Anyone who believes the history taught in highschool is accurate is a moron. When my kid come home from school questioning what they have been taught about something in their outdated schoolbooks we do research to find the real truth. Seems as tho some posters here don't bother and just buy into the history that colors it best for their viewpoint.
apathysux
flattax
5 years ago
G West
Quote:
"It's simply a waste of time and I have other more important things to do."
Interpretation:
"It is an arguement that I can't win, and I am going to concede your points."
And by the way, we all know the supreme court is out of control in this country, stacked as it is with appointed lefties. With wild interpretations of a constitution and bizarro charter of rights and freedoms. If only we could vote for supreme court representation, as they can in the USA, we would have more balanced decisions.
Besides, there is always the notwithstanding clause when it comes to the Delgamuukw decision. So supreme court rulings are NOT final as you said earlier.
Citing a supreme court decison and trying to shut down the discussion is an invalid argument. It is like saying it is because it is.
apathysux
5 years ago
oops...'kid' should be..
..kids..or to be grammatically correct...children.
SharingIsGood
5 years ago
correction to flattax
Flattax said:
From the Wikipedia: "Article II of the Constitution provides the power to appoint Justices belongs to the President, acting with the "advice and consent" of the Senate. As a general rule, Presidents nominate individuals who broadly share their ideological views." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Court_of_the_United_States
alive
5 years ago
could we calm down a bit?
Hmmm, where have I heard that response before?
Could it be from a person who spends all his waking hours trying to get an argument going...........?
However I agree these posts are getting a little too much, everyone repeating what could be said in a few sentences once and for all!
Get a grip, you are not going to convince anyone! State your opinion and leave the soapbox idle untill the next new idea surfaces.
If you want to gain point with your opponents, read their posts and consider them as valid opinions that just do not happen to match your opinions!
I have found it frustrating when my opinions have been ignored as if I never stated them, while the rant just goes on as if the debate is between 2 people and not about solutions to whatever problem is featured.
anarcho
5 years ago
Let's ignore the bigots!
Hey folks, let's ignore the haters and continue the discussion - if nobody replies to Maestrobater, flatass, snot, cappy, clueless and any of the others of their kind, they will eventually tire of baiting us and go away. If some new person appears on the scene and dumps some ignorant or prejudical comment, by all means challenge them, in the hope of enlightening them, but if they don't learn, and simply stay here to repeat over and over again their slurs, ignore them too. From what I have seen over the past 3 years at least half of the time is wasted battling these trolls, taking energy from coming up with new ideas or at least having fruitful discussions. And I suspect that is the reason they are here, to wreck this format.
bob the cat
5 years ago
Second that
I agree...Anarcho..
SharingIsGood
5 years ago
Got my vote!
It is time to shun the unteachable rude and ignorant. If they wish to change their tactics and engage in a dialogical quest to define what can be done to take care of this province/planet for ourselves and future generations, I will welcome them back to the discussion with open arms.
Right to Bear
5 years ago
rotfalmao...!
Right on anarcho, someone finally said it-"flatass"...rotfalmao :-D I couldn't tell you how many times I wrote that down, and backspaced to erase it... Somehow it felt good just to write it down, but to deliver it??...excellent, thanks anarcho, and YES, I agree with your post...
Peace bro,
Bear
Elliot
5 years ago
kudos to chief louis.
kudos to chief louis. handouts have never helped the natives and they never will. of course economic development is the way of the future. the sechelt band has also had success by integrating into the local community. if you want to see untapped potential drive through pemberton and mount currie sometime. on the pemberton side there are dozens of outdoor adventure companies utilizing the natural resources to create jobs and wealth, while on the mount currie side there is absolutely nothing but poverty and dependency. it's a crying shame.
climber
5 years ago
Now names, after logic fails
First RTB, we have beefed before about logging, again, what is your real knowledge? Clearcuts bad, clearcuts bad, blah blah blah. Some land in B.C. has been logged three and four times now, most of it is being logged for the second time. As far as the "haters" comments, why, can't stick to the topic? I'll just let the man himself, Chief Louie speak for me on this thing, of course you can't diss. him, or you'll be racists.
G West
5 years ago
No flattax you're wrong about that too
The Delgamuukw decision is based on First Nations' Charter rights. The notwithstanding clause does not offer the province an out and cannot be used to derogate from any person's or group of persons' rights under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
SharingIsGood
5 years ago
Climber, I spoke to what you wrote
Climber,
I spoke to what you wrote, and you ignored my post. However, you did show some remorse for being impatient, so I will say it again, and I will tell you that it speaks specifically to the unethicalness of my (or any Euro-Canadian's) promoting or dismissing Chief Louie. As a part of the Euro-Canadian culture that created its own laws and methods (and often breaking the few that were written) to dominate and destroy the First Nations people, I (and I presume you) have no place in judging what is best for them. To me, it seems you believe the First Nations people were of one nation, when in fact they were many nations. Chief Louie may be a good leader for his band - not necessarily for all the rest. If they think so and he is preserving the planet for the future, then he may very well be - I don't know. I certainly don't believe that the endorsement of the Good Ole' Boys media (The Economist, Profit Magazine, & Maclean's) is necessarily a good thing for the environment. That will be for his nation to decide.
Earlier I wrote:
"As a Euro-Canadian, my telling First Nations people to get on with it and do things the way you want them to is not my place. They have been the victims of genocide and rape and thievery. I am the offspring of perpetrators of those violent and unlawful acts. I can ethically do nothing more than assistance in helping them find heath and joy. It is not my place to begin to tell a First Nations person how he or she ought live. It will never be. That said, I do work with First Nations people, and I do expect as much veracity as can be had when we interact. I do this out of respect for truth, their truth, and mine. I never force my truths upon them. Together, we get much done. We share much in common, but I will never pretend to know what is best - I let them tell me what is best for them, and then I look for ways to support that."
So there you have it Climber, my third post on the same thought, and this time I spelled it out very clearly - I think. It ain't my call to tell any nation that has been brutalized and subjugated for generations by my ancestors and my peers how they ought live.
...SIG
climber
5 years ago
You can do nothing more than
You can do nothing more than assist them in finding health and joy. Wow, thats mighty white of you. I wish them all the best as well, I want them to have benefits other Canadians do not have, like a free education, hunting and fishing rights out of season, tax benefits, etc, for a while more. But I want for all of them something which many of them already have, the ability to make thier own way in life. The paternalistic Daddy knows best b.s. has got to end. I can say whatever the f... I want, its a free country S.I.G.. As a Euro-Canadian ancestor of thieving, genocidal rapists, good God, is that how you see yourself? And there is no guilt?
flattax
5 years ago
G West
Quote:
The Delgamuukw decision is based on First Nations' Charter rights. The notwithstanding clause does not offer the province an out and cannot be used to derogate from any person's or group of persons' rights under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
Rebuttal: It is not about treating one group above another. It is about treating all groups equal! The Delgamuukw decision puts the right of aborignals above the right of the rest of the population!
Analogy: I personally should pay less taxes than a recent immigrint, since I was born here. Do you agree with that?...Probably not, but this is the same as saying an aboriginal should not pay taxes and should get free land since they were here before my ancestors.
You could say "we took their land" but then you should also say successful immigrints are "taking our money".
Where does this silliness of who came first the chicken or the egg end?
G West
5 years ago
flattax and old ground
More irrelevancy:
You implied the notwithstanding clause somehow trumped Natives' Charter rights. It doesn't and Delgamuukw confirmed that.
As such, it has all the weight of precedent behind it. The case further reinforces and legitimates the treaty settlement process without dealing with the specific details which are meant to be worked out by negotiation.
Which is exactly what's going on now.
You may think it's silliness but your thoughts are of no importance in respect of the issue of Native rights. They exist and they have the force of the law behind them and that's all there is to it.
You and meastro may not like it but there it is. That is, nominally, why Shields' series is about 'reconciliation.'
My only regret is that this movement has been co-opted by the Campbell government which is, I fear, negotiating deals with many First Nations that contain, as it were, 'poison pills' relative to the long-term solution of these issues.
Irrational textual rants notwithstanding - in this case you might as well be arguing with yourself.
Exactly what I wrote several hours ago.
Give yourself apoplexy about it if you wish, nothing will change
SharingIsGood
5 years ago
It is not about guilt, Climber
It is not about guilt, Climber; it's about respect.
I work with many FN people nearly every day. Many have PTSD, and we are helping them through it. Some of the conditions on the reserves around me are still poor, but they are getting better. Many do work. Many have their own companies: logging, milling, log home building, ranching farming, computer setup and repair, automobile repair, aggregates/concrete, trucking, landscaping, building and excavation, cooking/catering, restaurants, cafes, hotel ownnership and management. And there are FN teachers, principals, social workers, nurses, secretaries, artists, dancers, band office managers, etc. etc.
We have the Nicola Valley [FN] Technical Institute in our valley. The percentage of FN graduates(about 70%) at our local high school is among the highest in the nation and we have about 30% FN kids in our district. Further some that didn't graduate at the high school upgrade at the NVIT and move on to post secondary training. As a matter of fact, national experts came to our school district 2 years ago to learn from us to see what we are doing because we are so effective.
So, you see, it is possible that I know what I am talking about.
climber
5 years ago
That is great to hear
That is great to hear S.I.G., I love to hear about people doing well. Working, going to school, its all good. Just on another note, have you ever read Stolen Life?
apathysux
5 years ago
FYI...Taxes
FN who are in any type of retail sales off reserve have to pay the same taxes as everyone else. FN who work OFF reserve have to pay the same taxes as everyone else. The ONLY place where FN do not have to pay taxes is on reserve. If the ROC makes a purchase on reserve they do not have to pay sales taxes.
ONLY those FN who get paid, checks printed and delivered, ON reserve do not have to pay taxes. Status FN who get paid and work off reserve pay the same taxes as everyone else.
As far as hunting and fishing rights, a farmer/rancher/landowner has a right to keep hunters off his property. Why is it such a stretch that those who lived here FIRST and had their rights and property forcefully removed from them not be able to hunt and fish the same way they did before they were forcefully removed as part of the just compensation for the theft of their land and resources???
Would you not feel you should be compensated if someone forced you out of your home and land?!!
Climber, it may very well be a free country but our very recent ancestors, great grandparents even, got us there through some very dirty and immoral methods. Not even one of those posters on your side of the issue has addressed the fact that the true history has not been properly acknowledged and has not addressed the resulting psychological issues rampant among FN on reserve. Why not?
apathysux
maestro
5 years ago
Lefties. Wait for the bugle call.
Hey Lefties...make sure Comrade / Commander G West wakes you up for another day of your patented useless subjective drivel. Jump out of the bunks after Taps is played.
Anar Co...your turn to mix the new batch of punch, isn't it ?
G West
5 years ago
And in the end
All that's left is white noise.
SharingIsGood
5 years ago
climber - stolen life
Well Climber,
You have shown courage in accepting that there may be more than one way. You seem to understand that it takes more than a motivational speaker - it takes time and commitment. To begin to help ameliorate the problems that have arisen for the FN peoples, we must understand that FN people found very good ways to make their living long before Euro-Canadians came along. They worked and learned and lived with nature. They were a part of it. Objectivism, reductionism, capitalism, genocide, abuse, theft of land; and the destruction of families and culture has had a profound impact on the First Nations. We reap the products of that impact. The last residential school closed in Tofino in 1983. Finally, there was an end to the tearing apart of the FN families. Finally, all FN families were permitted to rejoin; and the healing process could begin. But healing takes time, and it is not the Euro-Canadians' call to say how long it should take or what "healed" FN cultures should look like: our culture has abused them.
http://www.niichro.com/womhealth/wohealth7.html
I will read "Stolen Life",
Having read the reviews, it sounds like much of what I help people work through (in real life) on a daily basis. I am in the healing/helping business. Nothing cuts deeper than murder, sexual/physical/emotional abuse and suicide. The victims of these acts often never fully recover and revisit these acts upon themselves and others. The victims of these acts of violence encompass family, extended family, friends and community. Often, the threads of abuse are interwoven. It takes extreme courage and patience for many to overcome these abuses. They are not overcome by telling people how they "should" live.
apathysux
5 years ago
Amen to that...
...sharing is good.
Right to Bear
5 years ago
Climber...
Climber,
We have been down this path before bud, and I appreciate that I have learned things from you. I’ll tell you what, when I float down the Dean and see the clear-cuts on both sides of the channel, knowing it is nothing compared to what is to come...I am sad... period. 2\3rds of the Great Bear is unprotected, and the definition of eco-base management logging is yet to exist. It is Talk and Log all the way. Anyways, that is some of what I know of clear-cuts.
The good news is what I have seen is some FN's communities living in the Central Coast, has implemented their own company, and are attempting to practice logging with respect to the earth...and I am encouraged by this. I like to see these people work their own land and resources in way that is sustainable for the environment and that would be more in keeping with the way FN's people have always lived on their land. I do not wish to hear about exceptions, as there are exceptions everywhere, just the fact that it is encouraged within these communities to live respectfully with the earth and her inhabitants is good... My view.
Peace all,
Bear
climber
5 years ago
I know
We have spoken about logging before, I cringe at the name GBRF, it is bullshit, made up by the freaks. The proper name is north central coast. And people have been logging it for well over 100 years. Almost all the land right on the B.C. coast has been logged, by the gypo hand loggers, by the A-frame loggers, fact. When I was on the Charlottes (Haida Gwaii) my nieghbor said "most of these motherfuckers can't tell the difference, they see trees and call it pristine, I tell them it was logged before and they don't believe me" And so it goes. Now, by all means, the old clearcuts were wrong, clearcuts now are much smaller, streams are protected, oil from machines is gathered up, lots and lots of changes. But the stereotypes remain, look at me calling people freaks even.
Right to Bear
5 years ago
Climber...
Climber, I appreciate your candor. I myself cringe at the name Great Bear Agreement (GBA)...
Anyways, whether the areas have or have not been logged in the past, there is much evidence that the areas in question is being cleared today more then ever before...and it is not even close to being over. EBM is a joke to these companies. Large Corporate logging continues and well overshadows the small FN's companies which have started to exist with much more harmony with the earth... Looking forward to that changing.
"oil from machines is gathered up, lots and lots of changes". You say this climber, now tell me this, have you ever seen any abuses in the logging you are involved in??
Anyways Climber, check out Hawkesbury Island, or King Island and let me know if they qualify for "small" clear-cuts. From a Heli, they do not look very small to me, but your thoughts on these Islands would be interesting to me.
It seems to me the FN’s lands in this area are going to hell in a hand basket, and nobody seems to be doing anything about it…
Peace,
Bear
climber
5 years ago
Of course I have seen bad
Of course I have seen bad shit, of course. But the scale of cuts has changed, in fact it has all changed. Fact is, some peole are not going to be happy until all logging stops. What have you to say about the fact that almost the entire B.C. coast has been logged, a thousand or so feet from the chuck? They were logged, it came back, I mean c'mon. So much of our province is already parks, some of which are freaking huge. Was my nieghbor on the Charlottes right?
Right to Bear
5 years ago
Climber...
"What have you to say about the fact that almost the entire B.C. coast has been logged, a thousand or so feet from the chuck"?
Honestly Climber, I will need to look into that, but even if I take it at face value, the destruction of habitat for bears, wolves and so on, is and will be more-so compromised if the rate of Talk and Log by big U.S. and Canadian companies continues... This rate of extraction has never happened before. You got to understand Climber, this is what I see. What will happen to the FN people and their economic potential if this continues?? I suggest what will happen is what is happening, it's all going south, and to China. What will happen to the animals, the salmon, and the original ecology of this area when 2\3 of the GB or in your words the North Central Coast is clear-cut?? How will these animals live...They won't. We have talked about this, we can again if you like, but it is getting a wee close to being off topic.
Peace,
Bear
Stump
5 years ago
Old-timey logging
I'm not a logger, but I think climber's point about the gyppo hand loggers bears repeating. Those were the guys doing the logging of many of those coastal areas back in the day and the rate of extraction was so much lower that I think to compare then and now is to compare apples and oranges.
Right to Bear
5 years ago
Important point...
...Sounds like a very important point to me Stump. As I said, this rate of extraction has never been witnessed before. Clearly today the equipment is extremely efficient at taking apart a patch of land.
Peace,
Bear
climber
5 years ago
My point is the trees grew
My point is the trees grew back. They always do on the coast. Look up the annual allowable cut statistics for the coast, you will see that the a.a.c. has gone down instead of increasing over the last decade. There are hundreds of thousands of hectares of land outright protected, never to be logged, there are restrictions on much of it, like in the so called GBRF. So, don't be like Dave Suzuki, saying the last trees are almost gone. I have flown the coast, been around Bella Coola, most of the Charlottes. And yes there has been a lot of logging, plain to see, also a lot of trees, a lot of bush out there. No bears are endangered, there is an overpopulation of black bears, the big males are killing cubs to keep the levels down but still not enough. Find out about the a.a.c., educate yourselves.
climber
5 years ago
http://www2.news.gov.bc.ca/ne
http://www2.news.gov.bc.ca/news_releases_2005-2009/2006FOR0125-001173.htm There you go, cut reduced.
Right to Bear
5 years ago
Hey Climber...
Climber,
The old growth trees in these areas have not grown back, they need another several hundred years still. But really, 100 years ago the logging practises anywhere was not catastrophic to the enviroment, unlike today. Today it is all done under the guise of EBM logging...a publicly palitable title to be sure.
Dr. Paul Paquet stated, EBM cannot be considered a substitute for protection - it is a logging plan.
Yes, species are comprimised. Logging and the wiping out of umbrella and keystone species through trophy hunting in these areas is still allowed in spite of the word “protected”. They are allowed to kill the Great Bear in the Great Bear. Perhaps they need simply to define “protected”.
It is complicated climber, I am not saying it isn’t, and I am not saying I understand it all, but the logging on the central coast is unprecedented no matter what is written. Before the GBA a year ago, the land was in flux, and there was no confirmation of what can or cannot be logged. It may be they included the “unknown” as a starting point before their statement of allowable yields, but once the ink dried on this agreement…all was confirmed and the chainsaws came out. Now basically instead of 100 percent of the GB, 2\3rds of the GB is slated for logging. Perhaps this is why the "drop" in aac. Not exactly a step in the right direction eh… and when I fly over these areas one year apri-GBA, I have never seen anything like it...destruction beyond words.
Climber,you may not agree with me here (you haven't so far :-)), isn’t it time to stop making accommodations for industries that care so little about the environment or the FN communities that live in these areas?
Myself, I would think it satisfactory when enough area is protected in the true sense of the word, to give the FN communities and all living things in the GB certainty, along with more FN's ownership of resourses, because, as it stands right now-no one can say that this is a milestone that has been achieved…
My view,
Peace,
Bear
realisticman
5 years ago
An Expert Speaks
For far too long the massive Land Claims Industry has perpetuated the sad state of aboriginals in Canada. Lawyers and negociators make obscene amounts of money while well-meaning white socialists blame Canadian society and say that more money is the answer. Why not listen to the people themselves, like Clarence Louie and others?
Trouble is, listening would put thousands of do-gooders, lawyers and social workers out of business. They are just continuing the posture of telling the aboriginals what's best for them. I say "back-off".
G West
5 years ago
How many times have you posted a reference to Helin's book?
The point is that lots of people who post here have remarked about the need for lawyers to get out if the way - people like Otto Lang's brother in law for example; for Native groups to take the initiative and for a treaty process which is eating up the potential monetary value of these settlements to get moving.
The fact of the matter is that appeals to Chief Louie's solution (which worked very well for his nation largely because of the accident of their particular geographic location) and Calvin Helin's sometimes useful (but often self-serving) suggestions will play a part in solving a problem that is far more complex than you seem to wish to acknowledge.
It is every bit as much the case that a segment of the majority believes it is simply a matter of overcoming the alleged "fact" that: "indigenous people (are) fat, slow, lazy and as many youth now argue, stupid "- as you so charitably imply.
It isn't and your constant return to this refrain says a lot more about you than it does about the First Nations people whose problems, once again, "we" are trying to solve.
We need to settle up with them to clear our accounts and then leave the natives to get on with the job of living their lives on their terms, not ours.
Mr Campbell's positively breathless engagement of the concept of integrating these treaty settlements into an industrial and commercial model of HIS choosing may,
I think, bring this whole drama to a conclusion that, in the end, is a bigger disaster than the current situation. I hope I'm wrong, but let's revist this in ten years and we'll see.
My view.
apathysux
5 years ago
Climber....
... how long has it been since you logged on the Charlottes?? Quite obviously a long while.
FYI, a company for whom members of my family currently work have had 2 feller bunchers working on and off, putting a total of 14 fallers out of work, making a mess in the bush and leaving cut trees behind to endanger the lives of the fallers who have to go in to clear out the over size trees. BTW, even at today's hand faller rates, if one feller-buncher puts 7 hand fallers out of work, how fast do you think they are moving the wood.
The selective logging method used in some areas here is a joke!! Especially in the 2nd and 3rd growth areas. They leave a thin strip of trees to 'protect' the environment of the quarter and the next strong wind comes in and blows them all down! 2nd and 3rd growth trees are not even close to being as well rooted as old growth.
Most of Haida Gwaii has been logged and they are now cutting down 2nd, and 3rd growth now, however, this wood is not as nearly as marketable because it is too soft, not large enough, often rotten on the inside, etc. Even the salvagers are having a hard time, I think it has been a few years since I have seen a shake blocker working. Companies are still targeting the old growth and raw logs. There is definite push to protect these monumental trees, as there are few left. The areas of protectiono are not nearly big enough. Especially by the Haida who have traditionally harvested the old growth for poles, canoes, etc. also harvest the bark for weaving etc. There is very little of these left. Also FYI, the allowable cut has indeed been higher, but it has been a long time since they have actually taken all the wood allowed. Right now there is a push to take as much as possible because of the everlooming title case and the struggle over TFL 39.
They take millions of dollars of raw logs off of the Haida Gwaii each week, I know because I see the barges go by my office window. The bitch of it is, that 1) the local economy reaps little benefit in comparison to the profit being made by WFP and other companies. 2) this wood could be kept in BC and processed as value added creating far more jobs and development of the Regional economy rather than enriching the lower mainland and US companies. Remember the sawmill closures of the recent past? 3) The stumpage calculations and formulas benefit the large companies while squeezing out the local companies. Local companies who actually care what happens locally. 4) the Ministry of Forests in all its wisdom has taken the Region out of the equation by making all decisions related to the Northwest in the lower-mainland, where the dollar rules and the rest of us can rot.
And I am not sure where you get your info. re: an overabundance of black bears, as this is certainly not the case on Haida Gwaii.
This is my very local perspective on Haida Gwaii.
apathysux
apathysux
5 years ago
My editing sux...
...'The areas of protection are not nearly big enough' should have been inserted after the sentence re: the Haida traditional uses and the following sentence should have been removed.
0_0
realisticman
5 years ago
Hey, GWest!
You are incorrectly saying that you are quoting me and if you LOOK CAREFULLY then you will see that I am quoting someone else. Furthermore, I imply nothing. I defer to the peoples themselves. Like many Canadians I despair at the natives' general plight. I have no idea what makes them tick and I offer no solutions. I do not wish to be presumptuous.
You seem to know what's best for them, particularly since you again signed off, as per usual, with the the GWest, "my view".
As I said, I think most people that feel that they know what is best for the natives should defer to the successful native leaders and I repeat, back off!
climber
5 years ago
apathy RTB
The cut on the Charlottes has been reduced, only one camp is left (Husby), Western is not cutting thier a.a.c. every year. True. Yes Apathy, the cream is gone, it would be great if a lot of that wood could be milled locally. Now, about machines to log, yes they do replace fallers but they can't fall the big stuff, but the big stuff is not supposed to be cut anymore is it? Apathy, what you say about the export of raw logs, the decisons about the wood on the Charlottes being made in the Chilliwack forest office and the TFL holders getting an almost free ride on stumpage while the gyppos get screwed is true. I agree with you. Logging and loggers have been getting screwed over there since the late 80s, it is pretty sad, maybe it would be better if even less was logged, the wood was milled in Port, people took a cut in pay and got to stay employed in that beautiful place. RTB, about the great bear in the GBRF, there are only two kinds of bears in B.C. the black bear and the grizzly, there is no "Great Bear", bullshit. The spirit bear is a black bear, the bears on the Charlottes are black bears. The spirit bear has a genetic flaw that affects its fur color, the black bears on the Charlottes have evolved over time to be bigger and have longer snouts and claws than mainland black bears but they are still black bears as well.
climber
5 years ago
Correction
The so called GBRF, actually the central coast.
G West
5 years ago
Completely incorrect my friend
Realisticman,
I did not attribute the quote to you. You need to read a little more carefully. Go back and read again. All I did was make a syntactical acknowledgment of the fact that the words came from some unknown source and were not my own: Quite a conventional practice in my view.
I mentioned that this isn't the first time you'd talked about Calvin Helin and his book. I pointed out that I agreed with your point about lawyers and nowhere did I say anything about telling natives what's best for them. On the contrary, that's what you and Calvin Helin and Chief Louie are ALL on about.
The only behavior I've addressed is that of the descendants of the colonial occupiers of these native lands. That's quite enough bad behavior for me to deal with without casting aspersions on the legal 'owners' of this fine land - a status that the Supreme Court and the Canadian Constitution confirms that First Nations are entitled to.
Perhaps you should go back over what I actually did write. I've noticed this tendency before in your offerings; you tend to be so fixated upon your own biases that you frequently assume people have said or implied things they haven't written and certainly don't believe.
Your post in response to mine is an excellent example of this.
Pleas note this sentence:
"We need to settle up with them to clear our accounts and then leave the natives to get on with the job of living their lives on their terms, not ours."
You can attribute THAT to me if you like.
And, by the way, if you don't agree with the quoted comment from your 'unspecified source' why did you include it?
Just asking.
realisticman
5 years ago
Allright
as you so charitably imply.
Too cute and over the top.
I understand what the Courts have said and I accept that. I do find that, on this second mention of Helin, his commentaries are absent from this debate here and they should be included. I make no judgments but all sides should be heard, especially those from within the community in question.
northernwoman
5 years ago
Who says native culture isn't important? Idiots!
Native languages hold the key to saving species
Many animals and plants threatened with extinction could be saved if scientists spent more time talking with the native people whose knowledge of local species is dying out as fast as their languages are being lost.
Potentially vital information about many endangered species is locked in the vocabulary and expressions of local people, yet biologists are failing to tap into this huge source of knowledge before it is lost for good, scientists said.
"It seems logical that the biologists should go and talk to the indigenous people who know more about the local environment than anyone else," said David Harrison, an assistant professor of linguistics at Swarthmore College in Pennsylvania.
"Most of what humans know about ecosystems and species is not found in databases or libraries or written down anywhere. It's in people's heads. It's in purely oral traditions," Dr Harrison told the American Association for the Advancement of Science in San Francisco. "About 80 per cent of the animals and plants visible to the naked eye have not yet been classified by science. It doesn't mean they are unknown; it just means we have a knowledge gap.".
He cited the example of a South American skipper butterfly, Astraptes fulgerator, which scientists thought was just one species until a DNA study three years ago revealed that it was in fact 10 different species whose camouflaged colouration made the adult forms appear identical to one another.
"It's crucial for them to know which larva is eating which crop and at what time of year. Their survival literally depends on knowing that, whereas the adult butterfly has no impact on their crops," he said.
"There was a knowledge gap on both sides and if they had been talking to each other they might have figured out sooner that they were dealing with a species complex," he said.
"Indigenous people often have classification systems that are often more fine-grained and more precise than what Western science knows about species and their territories."
Another example of local knowledge was shown by the Musqueam people of British Columbia in Canada, who have fished the local rivers for generations and describe the trout and the salmon as belonging to the same group.
In 2003 they were vindicated when a genetic study revealed that the "trout" did in fact belong to the same group as Pacific salmon, Dr Harrison said. "It seems obvious that knowing more about species and ecosystems would put us in a better position to sustain those species and ecosystems," he said.
'That's my argument, that the knowledge gap is vastly to the detriment of Western science. We know much less than we think we do.
Right to Bear
5 years ago
Northernwomen... Climber...
So beautiful, true and interesting Northernwomen. I too believe it is FN culture holds within it a primary key to survival of all species including us. From my heart, thank you for this...Bear
Climber,
The spirit bear is a white black bear, this I know. Interesting and beautiful quirk in life methinks... I have seen moose with this same genetic twist.
The Great Bear however, was so named so by caring people who live and protect this area. Great Bear in Heiltsuk is "Qaikas Nan". Qaikas Nan is the Grizzly Bear. This is the history of the name "Great Bear". Any other Bear questions you would like me to answer. ;-)
Peace,
Bear
G West
5 years ago
Realisticman
As Stephen Colbert would put it, 'I accept your apology.'
I think when you post something that contains this quote:
from whomever wrote it, combined with your assertion that you "...make no judgments" that that statement is just a tiny bit suspect, don't you agree?
In any case, I'll assume it was a slip and you didn't mean to include that judgmental reference.
Anyway, I've just about had it with Tyee.
I had a look at the roiling mess on that Alberta Gays thread and decided I don't care to spend much time around here any longer.
There are just too many folks here who think it's perfectly fine to say anything that pops into their head about poor people, immigrants, East Indian farm workers, Native Indians and people that are in one way or another different from the so-called majority. Too many people who think that civility and rational discussion is too much effort. Too many Capitalisms and Elliots and Maestros and flattaxers. I’m starting to feel jaundiced about my fellow man, at least the ones I see around here ….it’s just not worth it. As an experiment in alternative journalism, I think it’s pretty much a bust.
Unless they come up with some new rules, it is going to turn into a feckless bore.
When NBC can teach lessons about civil behavior relative to racist comments that were just a shadow of what I read here every day it's time to find another venue.
It's been fun R/man. Glad you got to see Barry's house.
I'll stop in and see what's happening every now and again.
Cheers.
climber
5 years ago
Two bears
Two bears, like I said. No one is going to say black bears are in any danger in B.C., there are too many of them, the ones with no fear of man neeed to be shot. Grizzies are not going extinct, despite Suzukis blatherings for the last twenty years. Gary Shelton is the man, not Dave Suzuki.
Elliot
5 years ago
hey gwest/alcibiades/?/?/?
hey gwest/alcibiades/?/?/? are you really too small to execute a truce. must you continue to reference me and perpetrate this nonsensical little feud. you really must love this stuff. let's try again moron/fool/asshole; i'll ignore you and you ignore me. i have no desire to debate with you or read your posts so quit commenting on mine. how does this not seem like a reasonable arrangement to you? i haven't mentioned you for two days, and then i come across the above. grow up and get a life.
Right to Bear
5 years ago
Too scared and paranoid for me Climber...
Sorry to hear that climber, but not surprised given the wording you choose to use in your posts.
"We are living in a siege mentality," protested Gary Shelton,...
This is a acared and paranoid mentality that Shelton is promoting… The Bears are after us…!!! Clearly you are caught up in beliveing this crap. The truth is there is more people killed and maimed by moose and deer than bears, but the Great Bear and black bears are demonized by people like you and your pro-trophy hunting mouthpiece hero, Gary Shelton...
Too scared and paranoid for me dude,
Bear
G West
5 years ago
You pretty much prove my point
hey gwest/alcibiades/?/?/? are you really too small to execute a truce. must you continue to reference me and perpetrate this nonsensical little feud. you really must love this stuff. let's try again moron/fool/asshole; i'll ignore you and you ignore me. i have no desire to debate with you or read your posts so quit commenting on mine. how does this not seem like a reasonable arrangement to you? i haven't mentioned you for two days, and then i come across the above. grow up and get a life.
This is up to you, not me my friend. You know how to stop this, by simply acting like a human being. Insulting me is the smallest part of this Elliot – you do it to everyone when you behave like a mean-spirited bully. I just happen not to be willing to let you continue to behave this way. You’ve obviously convinced the management to ignore you and that too was a mistake – but a mistake I can’t do anything about.
I've already posted twice my position on this.
I don't consider this is a feud. One can't have a truce with someone who hasn't once made the tiniest effort to acknowledge that people he/she disagrees with are entitled to be treated with reason and respect. Realisticman and I almost never agree with each other but we can disagree like civilized people. It’s not the issues that matter it’s the lack of civilized behavior on your part and your serial refusal to observe the rules here, remember.
To accede to your solution to this situation is to facilitate and encourage your irrationality and hate. I'd rather just leave, I don't make deals with bullies.
You post something that's not offensive or in violation of the rules here maybe 2% of the time Elliot and everyone here knows it. I've never broken the rules and I won't agree to anything that's proposed by a bully.
You and people like you have simply wrecked Tyee, unless there is some change in the rules and the way they are enforced it simply isn't worth the time anymore. It's too bad that ad hominem irrationality and lies posted by a few individuals who don't know how to have a civil discussion have the potential to ruin the place.
Frank
5 years ago
White Noise
Apparently that's the entire argument from the other side. I read through the thread and just have to ask, is there a single coherent argument to be made against the FN's besides the tired old one of "DP's" not wanting to pay for anything?
alive
5 years ago
GEEEEEE West
Here is something we can agree on!
However if you were to quit,this might be a better place for it!
Nobody needs your long-winded posts anyway, so go away and bug some other site, please!
Elliot
5 years ago
whatever gworst. you go
whatever gworst. you go ahead and continue this ridiculous farce then. i'm going to continue to ignore you, as you really are not worth the effort. we'll see who the editors think are the ones that should be banned. i'm not sure i've ever seen someone make such a fool of himself more consistently. you're a loser, pure and simple.
climber
5 years ago
RTB
Gary Shelton wrote books about bear attacks in B.C. years ago, long before this most recent Bella Coola controversy came up. If you do a little more research you will find he is a bear expert and an advocate for bear sanctuaries. Now killed and maimed my moose and deer, I had a moose walk right up behind me once, never saw it, no doubt it could have stomped me to death. But a deer, c'mon. Have you ever had a creepy bear experience in the bush? I know what they can do, to people. Gary Shelton says we have to go back to the 60s way of dealing with bears, making them afraid of us, by shooting the brave and curiuos ones that check us out. They are animals, they think like this, will it hurt me?, can I eat it?, can I fuck it? Whatever, I respect them and try to avoid them, I know the deal.
northernwoman
5 years ago
Bears and bad teeth
The only bears I've ever had a problem with are the older ones and my grandmother used to say that it was because they had bad teeth and are typically pretty grouchy anyway and the tooth problems add to their surliness. Younger and teen age bears run when they see people....older bears think "my teeth hurt and this human is getting on my one nerve."
Right to Bear
5 years ago
Climber...
...apologize, more people killed and maimed by moose and ELK not deer. But either or, you get my point climber :-)
"creepy bear experience"
No climber, and I am in the bush a lot. I have encountered bears (both kinds), and mostly I simply enjoy watching them (preferably down wind so they do not know I am there). They are fun to watch, and play well with themselves... And climber, the GB's on the coast are like big dogs man. To shoot them for any reason is criminal. Your hero, Gary Shelton along with Leonard Ellis will have much to explain to their children’s children, when the only Grizzly bears left in the world are the dead ones on their walls, and those supporting this behavior are just as responsible…
No climber, bears are intelligent curious animals, and in Bella Coola and surrounding area, they are getting pushed around a lot due to logging, and bug kills. Combine that with the fact that the garbage issue in this town as with many other towns has not yet been addressed...you have bears in and close to the towns in this valley. With a few bears around and people like Shelton yelling “were under siege, were under siege…” they think they can than justify opening up 17 new areas in the Fall to hunt grizzly's in this Valley this year. This sadly is up from 5 areas, which was bad enough.
Bears are not to be afraid of, only respected...
My view.
Bear
Right to Bear
5 years ago
:-)
northernwomen, a toothache would make anyone miserable, including a bear. Thanks for the story :-)
Peace,
Bear
Elliot
5 years ago
when i was 20 i was chased
when i was 20 i was chased by a grizzly while i was working in the northern rockies. just about shit my pants, saw my life flash before me, all that jazz. he could have had me if he wanted to but was basically in a fight or flight mode b/c i surprised him while he was in the middle of eating a kill. most grizzly incidents involve hunters and their kill. researchers are even finding that grizz are attracted to the sound of gunshots b/c they associate it with a kill. i spend lots of time in the bush and have never been bothered by bears.
Right to Bear
5 years ago
Elliot...
"researchers are even finding that grizz are attracted to the sound of gunshots"
Elliot, that is hunter crap. Sell-out government biologist always trying to justify a grizzly hunt...
Exactly though...bears do not want to bother anyone, just live their lives :-)
Peace,
Bear
Frank
5 years ago
Elliot
Elliot, are you sure that wasn't a left-wing grizzly trying to kill you for your political views?
But then again, it couldn't be a Lefty bear being as the bear's attention was easily diverted and it gave up easily. Are you sure it wasn't maestro on a hairy day?
Elliot
5 years ago
bear; not hunter crap at
bear; not hunter crap at all. most grizz incidents are occuring in hunter camps b/c they smell the kill and are attracted to it. they associate the sound of the gun with fresh meat. grizz are very intelligent. btw; if you haven't heard of the kamchatka grizzlies check out this website http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/giants/living2.html
Right to Bear
5 years ago
Smart bear, but not that smart...
Elliot, I have heard and do follow the journey's of Charlie Russell just as I do many other people who are trying to make a good difference on Mother Earth today.
Elliot, the "wives tale" about bears attracted to the sound of a gunshot is supposedly bc of the gut pile after the animal is dressed, not bc the bear will then follow the guy with the rifle to camp... 'though smart, they are not that smart. Anyways if this was true, the gut pile is a long way from the hunters camp, if indeed he has a camp after a kill. For the most part, after a hunter kills an animal, he\she would get out of the area with the meat\head\trophy whatever, they would not set up camp with the fresh meat radiating throughout the atmosphere, if they can help it.
Who told you this crap Elliot ie hunter buddies, gov. biologists...who??
Cheers,
Bear
Elliot
5 years ago
don't have any hunter
don't have any hunter buddies bear. you're wrong though. hunters can't simply 'get out of the area' that immediately. they usually have a base camp set up and have to stay in the bush for at least a night. not sure if your last line was attitude or not but if it was you need to chill out a bit. maybe you need to go on a hunting trip, i hear they relieve stress.
Right to Bear
5 years ago
Elliot...
...No attitude intended toward you Elliot, only towards the information. I stand by what I said, there is no evidence that bears can figure out that gunshots mean mealtime, and yes I have spoken to unbiased biologists on this subject before. FYI Elliot, I do not have any issue with hunting, only trophy hunting. IMO it is exploitive and unethical, but for all I know you may feel the same way...?
Peace,
Bear
Elliot
5 years ago
in that case my apologies,
in that case my apologies, and yes, i also have a problem with trophy hunting, especially of grizzlies. they're far too majestic to be cheapened by the whims of a thrill-seeker out for a conversation piece to hang on his wall.
Right to Bear
5 years ago
:-)
...appologies accepted :-)
Bear
Right to Bear
5 years ago
spell check...
I thought something so short I wouldn't need spell check...wrong.
I meant "apologies" :-)
Bear
Right to Bear
5 years ago
yesh...
"spell" not "spel"
Sunup
5 years ago
As a new poster.
I'm not sure how long it takes before a post hits the board.
This is a time test.
Sunup
5 years ago
Ok...
My first post is somewhere in the great abyss. If it shows up...this is my condensed post of the first draft.
Firstly, I would like to introduce myself.
I am an Indigenous person from a Hereditary System.
Secondly, I would like to commend Sandra Shields for her articles in this series.
I have followed the comments contained in this series with great interest.
Every citizen in this country is in the same canoe.
I certainly appreciate the comments from those who truly have an understanding of the situation we find ourselves it at this juncture.
We have been subjected for generations to the same old stereotyping and clearly we will always find ourselves at the same old impasses regarding individual mind sets that harbor "junk information."
I'm providing this link in order for everyone to understand WHY the Indigenous pose such a "burden" to the crown.
Ask yourself? Could this be the very reason why 60% of the Indigenous of "British Columbia" will not sit at the table and negotiate with a De Facto government?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Westminster_1931
Come to your own conclusions.
Respectfully open.
All my Relations,
Sunup
Sunup
5 years ago
De Facto definition
de fac·to(d fkt, d)
adv.
In reality or fact; actually.
adj.
1. Actual: de facto segregation.
2. Exercising power or serving a function without being legally or officially established: a de facto government; a de facto nuclear storage facility.
Governor General
Role and Responsibilities of the Governor General
The Office of the Governor General, Canada's oldest continuing institution, is a thread that ties Canadians together. From Samuel de Champlain in 1608 to Viscount Monck in 1867 to Vincent Massey in 1952 to today’s Governor General, the institution of Governor General dates back nearly 400 years.
What is the Governor General's position in Government?
Canada is a parliamentary democracy and a constitutional monarchy. This means Canadians recognize The Queen as our Head of State.
Canada's Governor General carries out Her Majesty's duties in Canada on a daily basis and is Canada's de facto Head of State.
Like many other democracies, Canada has clearly defined the difference between the Head of State and Head of Government.
The Governor General
represents The Queen who is the Head of State
is appointed by The Queen on the advice of Canada’s Prime Minister
The Prime Minister
is the Head of Government
is the leader of the party with the most support in Parliament
What does the Governor General do?
The Governor General's role is built on four major themes:
Representing the Crown in Canada
Representing Canadians and Promoting our Sovereignty
Celebrating Excellence
Bringing Canadians together
(The larger question here is...Where does the authority of an identified ceremonial crown get it's powers from in consideration of the "Statute Of Westminister, 1931?")
How do we square this off?