Should say "Do" I hear.............

Harper, shows a complete ignorance of Canadian affairs and Canadian history. He is, at best, a bumpkin or at worst an American collaborator. The evil this man is doing and his neocon clone Campbell is doing to this country will reverberate for drcades to come.

Haha - way to go grump! Though, I hope you are right - that their actions will have a lingering effect - I for one agree with the vision our leaders have.

Nothing is ever perfect, and I feel sorry for the little guy with the interior box company. However, the vast majority here agree that this is the best alternative given the circumstances. I've seen first hand the disturbances that litigation can have. Nobody wins, but the lawyers. Settle and move on.

Sure there are disdainers, but they are few. This box guy is one of the few that sounds as if though he is worse off. Sorry man!

I'm looking forward to the Vancouver- Kingsway election, if Emerson decides to run.

Hmmm, one might make the argument that it's better for the Cdn companies (and our economy) to pay Canadian lawyers over American competitors (really, isn't that what those assorted duties and taxes are in essence?)

Suprised not to hear you touting the value of a real free market here Cap, you know, the lowest priced, best quality product gets the marketshare rather than the usual U.S. bully-boy tactics.

Oh well, at least they (the U.S.) aren't trying to bring democracy and the rule of law to our land or we'd really have reason to worry.

Cappy, my father who worked for Canfor and went to Washington in the 1960's to testify for the Canadian forest interests against American softwood and other duty's. In part, because of his analytical debate, Canada won that round. He came back saying to all who would listen is that the Americans wanted to destroy our forestry industry with onerous duties, etc. 46 years later, despite the fact that Canada was winning court case after court case, Harper caved in.

The American policy to Canada is to screw us! Americans treat Canadadians as garbage (they hate appeasers and ass kissers) and Harper just affirmed to them that Canada is a bunch a losers and our politicos will sell out the Canadian public at every instance. Compare this to the USA's no-prisoners policy!

One year from now we will watch the forest indsutry sink like the Titanic, already the mill are closing in the East and it is the East that will determine Haprer's re-election.

Booker:

Oh no, he won't have to run again. In this country we make our opportunist politicians into Senators.

Yea, just a terrific phuquing deal from the traiterous Emerson and Harpo .
Ten sawmills have ceased operation from Quebec to Saskatchewan throwing hundreds out of work just prior to our season of joy-Christmas .
There will be no joy in those small towns and burgs this year .
These morons sold us down the river and have allowed US industry to dictate how me mamnge our forrests and wood lots .
This is insane a 35% duty .
And oh, by the way the lumber is being taxed at the highest levels .
Way to go goofs .

Oh please God, don't allow Steve Harper to get re-elected!

So hopefully the Conservative 'bullies' will be punsihed at the next election.

Too bad "sorry" doesn't feed a family Capitalism, I hope yyou increase your donations to a food bank!

Links I forgot about this stupid non deal .http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/financialpost/story.html?id=9413c048-dc92-4fe7-b0ba-61c14f1f5768&k=18633
http://ca.today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2006-10-12T201333Z_01_N12393634_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-TIMBER-CANADA-COL.XML&archived=False

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/financialpost/story.html?id=76936993-3db3-4bc1-b6fb-636234deb0b5&k=34253
Now open your eyes you stupid phuquing neo-con idiots .

Hewers of wood and drawers of water, eh?
We are destined to be the supply-warehouse for the amerikkkan elite.
Mexicans will supply the cheap labour and we will supply the raw materials.
I wonder if Harpers campaign fund will se much money from the lumber firms this time around?

If one is about to betray the nation, into such as a North Amerikan Union dominated by the US Empire, one cannot have such an economic crime bedevilling its heels, such as the US pulled off on us around this soft wood lumber issue. It must be swept under the carpet, and thus "resolved" as quickly as possible.

Even from their power perspective, that of the US Empire and its Vichyist Harper Regime, it is going to be a difficult enough act of treason to pull off as it is, even with no rancorous issues immediately present.

The game of Neocon treason, tyranny and treachery are afoot. (Hence their need for a conference to discuss "security" concerns. They are far from home free, or "secure" in their own minds, I am sure, with even for them, much that could go wrong and backfire in their faces.)

There is a need to get the word out NOW, raise mass public consciousness of the issue, and to begin to organize for the defence of the nation.

Man, I spent $3,000 and over a year waiting to become a part OF THIS? I thought I was escaping this crap!

Iceland or New Zealand is looking better every day...

I fail to see how Harper and Emerson can be entirely to blame for this deal being completed.

It was readily apparent to all that the motivation for drafting the deal with the Americans was to enhanced the (neo-)Conservatives chances for a majority. That they would stoop to engaging a opportunistic Belinda wannabe and kiss american ass was no surprise either.

But one fact remains, the people and companies directly affected had the opportunity to simply say no, or even vehemently protest the proposal.

They failed to do so, and therefore the businessmen and unions/employees share the blame. They had the choice not to be victims in a political game.

IMO Harper is a scab. Dick Harris and Jay Hill are his puppets in the north of B.C. I hope they both take the fall fall the cok sukker that Harper is.

The neo-Nazi's simply got a bigger stick to beat back opposition to the deal by unilaterally cancelling all litigation in the US .
Also they said that those that didn't sign on would have to wait up to two years for their compensation and would be charged a 29% duty to boot .
What is not to understand .
Emerson and Harpo are filthy phuquing liars with no business being in politics .

On this one, you will get no disagreement from me, jwstewart. There is enough culpability and shared blame to go around to all the established political and class insitutions.

That said, the main task remains all the same: to raise consciousness and turn ourselves and these institutions, and the nation, away from this course. In any successful or even near successful act of treason, there doubtless has to be many explicit and implicit treacheries of collaboration involved, actively or passively.

It's these do nothing, passive, and sheer ignorance of the facts acts of betrayal of the nation that need to be challenged and turned around. There needs to be a major UNITED campaign of public education undertaken, as an intial opening act of resistance. And that means a coming together of convenience, of all counterposed class interests, small business, labour, family farmers, and general public, peace, and environmental etc., to raise awareness and prepare the defence of the country.

My view.

There is only One Word for Harper, a Traitor of "The Sovereign Nation of Canada" OUR The People of this Once Great Peace Keeping Country now turning into Usa fodder, road kill for the “Emperor”!
Get out on the street corners and soon more will join let's do something to stop this SELL OUT!

Gordo Campbell is doing the same BS in BC scandal after scandal Why is he still Dictating?
He should be in jail along with the Dirty 24 2003 Legislature Raids?
Criminals all!

In: Softwood agreement: already penalizing Canadian producers
http://mikewatkins.ca/categories/politics/2006-10-13-10-39.html

I've put together a quick peek into one of the important mechanisms used to guide the SLA going forward -- average lumber prices. Canadian producers, and especially BC producers, who are most affected by this dumber than doorpost deal, are already on the hook for "export charges".

The key trigger is this: if prices were to forever remain above $355 USD/thousand board feet, Canadian producers would be shielded frmo both export charges as well as industry-killing quota revisions.

However, as my exploration of lumber prices over the past 10+ years shows, monthly average prices were above that number only 47% of the time.

Not only will producers be penalized for their legitimate exports but quotas will be forced lower the longer prices remain below $355 USD.

No wonder industry thinks its a bitter pill - the deal amounts to the US forcibly shrinking the size of our lumber industry.

Stump:

In theory I don't agree. You are not always bound by your ideologies. As a pure capitalist, I would support illegal immigration - however, I don't. The reason is that I believe it has disasterous implications.

Though I am sure he didn't mean to, Grump proved my point, when he said:

The point is that I have no impact on who is voted for in the USA. 46 years of turmoil, inefficiencies, legal costs, etc. and where has it taken us. We cannot stand up to thus form of U.S. imperialism without having major economic ramifications. We could turn off our oil pipes - but, they would stop importing from us......that would be the death of Canada.

We are stuck between a rock and a hard place - and unfortunately, the hard place is a little softer.

jwstewart:

I don't know what the unions though, but 80% of the gave it approval. Further, all three provinces responsible for the majority of lumber exports gave it their stamp of approval (BC, PQ, ON) - even McGuinty the staunch Liberal said yes.

What this is - is a far left editorial trying to take away from what is percieved to be a major conservative accomplishment. The NDP wouldn't vote for this - ever - they are anti-american.

The Liberals might have it was a free vote - however, the decided to oppose it - and why - because they knew the BQ would support it. Now they have the ammo to campaign that the tories and the separatists are in bed with each other - that they are the only true canadian party.

Nobody is to blame here - we are better off than before - and if we aren't, we are certainly no worse. This deal expires in 7 years - and we have an opt out option. I guarantee you that this would still be unsettled 7 years from now - so what is the problem?

Give it up..

So way back when Lying Brian was the big boss, we got Free Trade, even though lots of folks were against it. Hey it was going to solve everything with tribunals and assorted other steps. So now it seems after winning most of the decisions, the New Savior of Canada gets Emerson to sign a deal ignoring everything that went before.
I sort of follow the thinking of Bob Simpson the forestry critic in BC rather than the slant put out by Coleman and his boss Gordy who really really like it and besides Steve Harper may give them some more money for Olympic costs, that really really aren't Olympic costs. What a bunch of con artists. The US lobby folks will be up her selling Conservative membership forms shortly

Argghhhh!!! It angers me to sit back and watch this BS! My husband is in the forest industry, has been for 30 years. works in TFL 39. We have had our fair share of forest industry woes. The biggest lobby in the US is the same company that wrote the legislation to remove the province of BC from having any culbability and share in the consultation process AFTER the supreme Court of Canada said there had to be consultation by the province. This is the smae company who bitches about the duty paid on wood on this side but makes millions on the SAME wood on the US side. The corruption, backroom dealing, etc. etc. is something that has had our attention for long time. You can try blame some passivity on the Union and the employees but you have to recognize the fact that these are men with families to support. In many ways the corps have tied the Unions hands what are the options? The only goods thing Campbell did was legislate the Union back to work two years ago...otheriwse the corps would have waited the six months necessary to bring in contract labor putting 100's if not 1000's of forest workers out of a job...not for much longer tho. Thank God IWA is now United Steelworkers!!! Just wait till the collective agreements are up in June/July 2007.

I want to scream from the rooftops'Are you all fukin'blind??? Can you not see how our eaders are selling us out?' I would love to see Harpo and Campbell both on trial for treason. They are both sell outs to big corps and the US.

How are we better off than before? Backing down from a fight we were WINNING has got to be the stupidest move ever!! If we back down on this how much easier do we think it will be the next time? I can see the American Foresty Assoc. (?) snickering because they put another one over on us and are getting paid for doing it!!! Oh, Yes , yes...please sir, harder, harder, can I have some more?...

sorry a bit of anger feeding that one...I meant 'leaders' not 'eaders'
excuse the spelling mistakes

we definitely need a movement and a large one. Much of the population remains unaware of the long reaching effects of Harper's actions and until matters affect them in their own backyard they will remain passive. Well, hello people is Canada NOT our backyard? The US might hae stolen hockey but they can't have our country!!!So Let's DO something to stop the spiral!!!

I know I thought the trade battle was a way for multinational forest companies (operating in the U.S. & Canada)to reap tariff windfall in the U.S. and then in Canada use the situation to layoff employees, close operations, etc. and save more money to pay shareholders!

Freebear,

That is EXACTLY what it is. The whole thing is being motivated by large corporations who have interests in both the US and Canada. Wonder what the pay off to Harper is?

freebear - isn't that what companies are for? To pay shareholders? Shareholders are the company's owners. In fact, without shareholders, it wouldn't really be a company would it?

freebear is a little ironic - you should more like a commie. i would hardly call the "free" - though it could also refer to the your love for handouts - or all things free.

Backing down from a fight we were WINNING has got to be the stupidest move ever!! If we back down on this how much easier do we think it will be the next time?

Sadly Canada has a pathetic history when it comes to standing up for itself. Think of the Avro Arrow, the repeal of Trudeau's FIRA, PetroCan, etc.When you look at these ventures there is one thing they all have in common. Their demise was brought about by a Conservative government!

IMO Harper is a scab. Dick Harris and Jay Hill are his puppets in the north of B.C. I hope they both take the fall fall the cok sukker that Harper is.

Ata boy Sparky. Give those CS's hell. Didn't know ya had it the fuk in ya! ;-)

Yes it is silly!
It is even more silly that we will not back down from a fight in Afghanistan that we can NOT win!
Go figure!

In fact, Harper said, the deal that took effect Thursday, was necessary to bring stability to a troubled industry.

"No, quite the opposite," Harper said when asked whether the deal was costing Canadian jobs.

"We had to get the softwood lumber deal signed, otherwise things were going to get a lot worse a lot more quickly."

The seven-year accord replaces U.S. duties on Canadian softwood with a sliding export tax that adjusts for low lumber prices.

In Victoria, B.C. Forests Minister Rich Coleman said the deal should clear the air after years of instability.

But the province's NDP forests critic Bob Simpson said the implementation couldn't come at a worse time.

Producers will be facing a 15 per cent border tax at a time when lumber prices "are at rock bottom," Simpson said.

Several forestry giants have announced job cuts in recent weeks, including more than 1,600 this week alone at mills in Quebec and Ontario.

On Wednesday, Domtar Inc. (TSX:DTC) announced the indefinite closure of four sawmills and about 950 job cuts, most in Quebec. A day earlier, Abitibi-Consolidated (TSX:A) said it was cutting nearly 700 jobs in Quebec.

Sure thing moron. If you say so it must be true .
The ministry of lies working over time .

More lies and untruths from Tweedledumb and Tweedledumber .VANCOUVER — The Canada-U.S. Softwood Lumber Agreement will come into force on Thursday after the two countries agreed to amendments that will sidestep diehard opposition within the Canadian lumber industry.

The deal was supposed to be implemented on Oct. 1 but a substantial number of lumber exporters refused to withdraw legal actions against the United States over punitive softwood duties, a key U.S. requirement for it to revoke the duties.

The Americans had demanded that more than 30 separate court actions be terminated by the deadline, forcing Ottawa last Friday to delay implementation until no later than Nov. 1.

Late Friday, International Trade Minister David Emerson said the two countries “have found a satisfactory resolution to the outstanding legal and administrative issues.”

Mr. Emerson was unavailable for comment but his communications director, Bob Klager, said the two governments found a similar method for terminating the litigation.

“Under this new process only a limited number of cases will need to be terminated in order for the revocation of the duty orders,” he said. “I think by virtue of the fact we've developed with them this simpler process, it satisfies the interests of both countries.”

But an opponent of the deal said the “simpler process” involves unilaterally quashing the cases.

NDP trade critic Peter Julian said lawyers for the Canadian and U.S. governments filed a status report in the U.S. Court of International Trade on Friday that tramples on the legal rights of Canadian opponents of the lumber duties.

The brief says that on Friday the Canadian and U.S. governments tentatively agreed to amendments in the July 1 softwood deal that, if implemented, would affect one of the cases the New York-based court was hearing.

“The litigation aspects of the agreement are currently under review by officials of the United States with the authority to approve the compromise of the claims in litigation,” the document says.

“On the day that the agreement enters into force, the governments of Canada and the United States will stipulate to a dismissal of all claims raised by the Government of Canada (in one softwood case) and the United States Department of Commerce will revoke in their entirety the underlying anti-dumping and countervailing duty orders on softwood lumber from Canada.”

Mr. Julian claimed the report indicates the outstanding legal cases will be extinguished.

“They're just legally using a legal sledgehammer and eliminating the claims,” he said.

Treasonous bastards .

How do you have the current PM charged with treason?...perhaps this would be something to seriously consider...If they can try to have Bill Clinton impeached for adultery surely we can find a way to charge Harper with treason.

This is a sham deal from beginning to end. It is really a tacit admission that the Harper government has given up on NAFTA. It also mean that the next time we go to negotiate anything with the Americans we are going to get our buts kicked but one more time. How David Emerson gets away with this sort of crap is simply astounding.

You are right of course, apathysux, about the pressures of family needs being the underpinning element that much keeps Canadian workers in line, and to a lesser degree their unions, who are and have for a long time, under the influence of weak kneed social democratic (NDP) policy, been simply too goddamn co-operative with the big ruling class corporations, by half.

That said, being an old trade unionist myself, I do recognize the role that workers, through especially the collective power of their trade unions, can play if and whenever they choose. Indeed, they may well be decisive, in my view, in the mobilization that is going to have to occur, in defence of the nation, the protection of our vital resources, and for their families' futures.

It is not going to be easy, but the courage, the man/womanpower forces, and a way to do it, to cut through the system's bullshitt and media exclusion, is going to have to quickly be found here. Time is sliding away from us all.

Everyone, the labour movement, unorganized workers, small business, students and intellectuals, folks who work the land, the poor, the environmental and peace movements, and we of the political left, joined with all progressive folks who love the country and its people, and the progressive way of life we have until this Neocon period enjoyed, and value their sovereignty and real, not hyperbole democracy, are going to have to screw up our courage over the coming period, find a way, and collectively challenge and fight back.

And it will entirely likely be a grind.

We are still at the beginning of a process, of fighting back, of having a voice at the table, and of being a part of the solution.

Many failings and weaknesses, on the part of many peoples and groups, have led to our being here, finding ourselves in this place. It is still not too late.

Time to turn it around.

When all this began with the softwood "deal", I thought the best thing we could do as a nation would be to turn off ALL the taps: water, gas, hydro, lumber, etc. But first I realized that it would take a government with some balls (oh well, maybe someday), and THEN I realized that within 24 hours, tops, the tanks would be rolling northward... for our own good, of course.

Treason as it applies to Canada

Canada

The Canadian Criminal Code has two degrees of treason, called "high treason" and "treason." However both of these belong to the historical category of high treason, as opposed to petty treason which does not exist in Canadian law.

"High treason
(1) Every one commits high treason who, in Canada,

(a) kills or attempts to kill Her Majesty, or does her any bodily harm tending to death or destruction, maims or wounds her, or imprisons or restrains her;

(b) levies war against Canada or does any act preparatory thereto; or

(c) assists an enemy at war with Canada, or any armed forces against whom Canadian Forces are engaged in hostilities, whether or not a state of war exists between Canada and the country whose forces they are.

Treason
(2) Every one commits treason who, in Canada,

(a) uses force or violence for the purpose of overthrowing the government of Canada or a province;

(b) without lawful authority, communicates or makes available to an agent of a state other than Canada, military or scientific information or any sketch, plan, model, article, note or document of a military or scientific character that he knows or ought to know may be used by that state for a purpose prejudicial to the safety or defence of Canada;

(c) conspires with any person to commit high treason or to do anything mentioned in paragraph (a);

(d) forms an intention to do anything that is high treason or that is mentioned in paragraph (a) and manifests that intention by an overt act; or

(e) conspires with any person to do anything mentioned in paragraph (b) or forms an intention to do anything mentioned in paragraph (b) and manifests that intention by an overt act."[2]

It is also illegal for a Canadian citizen to do any of the above outside Canada.

The penalty for high treason is life imprisonment. The penalty for treason is imprisonment up to a maximum of life, or up to 14 years for conduct under subsection (2)(b) or (e) in peacetime.

Hannibal,

Always fun and interesting to read you brother.

While I certainly do not think we need feel bound or restricted by the legal definition of "treason" exclusively, for it is certainly anything that betrays the nation, its sovereignty, to a foreign power. And that is precisely what we are looking at here, in the case of these US Empire Loyalists amongst us, including the Harper Conservative government, in my opinion.

Good write, brother.

Strange, that save for Capitalism/IAMC/Mabelle/Ron Irwrin et al, who has evidence the strongest committment to the neoconservative present and cause, loyalty to the US, and rationalization of the betrayal of the nation, all other right-wingers have suddenly disappeared, are regrouping, or are themselves taken aback by the scale of the treason, such that they have been silenced.

And therein is the lesson for us all over the coming period. It is time to stop our social, political and economic retreat. To cease our timidity in the country's cause.

Give them no fukinhg quarter. Smell the fear about them, at the scale of the treachery they are about.

Attack! Attack! Attack!

Fair enough Cap.

I hope you will understand that the same applies to those of us whom you like to paint with a bright coat of commie 'red'.

It is possible to want some respect for the workers, some consideration for the future, and some care for the environment w/out being a raging pinko.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Amen brother Coyote

Absolutely Coyote . The gloves are off .
Kill or be killed .Take no quarter .
" Into the valley of death rode the six hundred "
Recent events in the news indicate that Harper has smelled the ill wind that is blowing his little house down .
He is flailing about like a drowning man looking for any indication his party maybe able to survive the next election .
His facist reverse onus bill . His filthy soft wood lumber agreement . His stupid so called Green plan .
The fat assed moron is toast in the next general election .
He will be lucky to hold onto his support in Alberta at this rate .
Man the barricades . Damn the torpedos full speed ahead !
As per usual I love what you have written and am in total agreement .
Thanks Coyote

That is very much up the the NDPers, the ilk of whom run this site. Remember who brought the last government down? It was not Herr Harper.

Coyote, your rhetoric is lost and useless. The union movement has completey missed the boat and does not even recognise that new industries have sprung up to replace old ones. Why not unionize, say, a software company? Have you ever tried? Do you know what EA is? It is one of the biggest employers in BC. What do they produce? Where is their head office?

The unions and their American bosses have been laughed off my worksites so many times I can't count it. I find these 50's pot bellied grey hair "organizers" a helluva hoot. They are a real anachronism to my 20 something and international work force!

You are blowing smoke and complete nonsense. Rhetoric and $1.70 will buy you a Starbucks coffee.

I see the Harpies working overtime. Anyone who supports Harper is a fool and the softwood deal is testement to this. Harpr has sold out Canada to his US interests. Let's face it Canada is doomed unless the public rise up and overthrow this charlatan government. who is not afraid to bell the cat?

Well done Grump! Its time for the Canadian people to rise up for sure. These amerikan-wannabees are killing off Canada. The hell with bells, tar and feathers is more like it!

You can rise at election time. Cast your vote carefully lest you put him back into power.

Rhetoric and $1.35 gets a Tim Horton's medium.

You keep pissing into the wind like that so-called "Working Man", and you'll just wind up smelling like yourself. Which is okay if you are really that much in love with the smell of yourself, I guess.

You ain't the only "working man" here, by a stretch, arsehole. And all of us have met you, at least once in our lives-, whenever the boss stopped too fast and without warning-, and there you were with your head stuck up his ass.

We've met a few times over the years, dipshit.

Or, at least, I recognize your arse there, sticking out of the boss's butt.

The name calling and foul language are really not becoming, Coyote. They reflect on you, not me.

Stop being so silly and answer my questions. Ask yourelf why your membership has not even touched new industries.

Come to think of it, that kind rhetortic is what made my workers laugh so hard the last time the rep for the American union came by!

Working *******.Blah,blah,blah,blah .
Run home little boy the sdults are trying to talk .
What a fool !

More name calling. Very reflective, me thinks.

By the way, what is a sdult?

Working Man has a few points. Why have unions not made any inroads into the programming industry?

One answer might be that the medical benefits, vacation pay, lunch breaks etc. etc. that unions fought so hard for and won are just taken for granted now.

Another reason could be that those in the hightech sector are so caught up in the industry that they do not see the need for that kind of protection. Perhaps they think that the video game industry will just keep going on forever and they will always have work. Just like all the people working in construction, things are great and they will stay great forever...

It should be noted, though, that the greatest engine for job creation in north america is not the hightech sector. It is not the construction sector either which is still subject to boom and bust cycles. No, the greatest engine for job growth in Canada and BC is HEALTHCARE AND SOCIAL SERVICES and all those workers are unionized but under severe attack.

The softwood lumber deal shows that little bush Harper will do anything to try and get a majority government. It is a terrible deal for workers, the environment and the Canadian economy but the shrub thinks he can tough it out and people and companies will allow themselves to be bullied.

I think he should be careful about getting Canadians angry because it could backfire on him. Those is BC see what a disaster Campbell has been and the shrubby one actually lost votes here. We shall see.

Adult, you fool.
What a phuquing goof !

Hey azzhole. Phuque off to Canada.com .

The computer game industry is the single largest form of entertainment in the world at the moment. It is bigger than soccer, it is bigger than baseball and it in no danger of slowing down in my opinion.

Really? We have a red hot economy rising wages and falling umemployment (for anyone interested in working) and an oppsotion so lame his re-election is practtically guaranteed. Is the BC government perfect? Not by a long shot but it is a lot better than the NDP ever was. That was shown by voters in 2001 and 2005.

.

Hannibal, I pity you. All your hate and rhetoric are absolutely useless. People are not going to "rise up" to the likes of you and they are certainly not going to vote for your kind. There is not going to be a "general strike." There is not going to be an NDP goverment in Ottawa, either.

You are a passionate person. Direct your energy to a cause you can really have some effect on. Successful people channel their energy to positive causes, not negative ones.

What? campbell... drunk and high in Hawaii, cutting contracts, Virk, Basi, clark, collins, marison, Cuqihalla, sold railway, fish farm shill, killing off pesioners, destroying our hospitals, kids dying in social services.A lier, a thief, a drunk,... is that better? I think not. I could go on for hours... but I won't. NDP were not perfect, but campbell and his gang are crooks and hmmmm, connected to the mobs? Lets wait and see.

Please excuse the errors. I had to work 12 hours today. I'm a small business guy, trying to pay my taxes, trying to pay for all his follies.

working moron:

Rising wages? yeah for upper-level managers appointed by Gordo, nobody else!
If free enterprise is so great , why is Ontario now at the bottom of the list?
Things go in cycles, and right now we do great on experting raw logs! between that and the pine beetles, how long will that last?

I can sense the panic. There hasn't been a reason to toast Harper, Not for mainstream Cana dians so far. The left is waiting for the other shoe to drop, when they don't even have two shoes left.. The left we see hear is burning all their bridges, counting on the PM to fail. Cana dians Are hopelessly in love with Steve, don't you have any friends in everyday Canadian life?
I do, and they all love this guy.

I can sense the panic. There hasn't been a reason to toast Harper, Not for mainstream Cana dians so far. The left is waiting for the other shoe to drop, when they don't even have two shoes left.. The left we see hear is burning all their bridges, counting on the PM to fail. Cana dians Are hopelessly in love with Steve, don't you have any friends in everyday Canadian life?
I do, and they all love this guy.

A little left is a lot better then a lot right. Harper is dangerous. Give him time, we will regret all he does. He likes bushie, that is scary enough. How come two times IAMC? Like seeing your words?

Ron, you've been drinking again - it dulls your senses.

It's clear now why Campbell and Coleman looked like they'd just come in from a session in the woodshed the day they announced BC was 'in' on the deal. Something BCMary noted at the time. Harper is a liar and a bully and his minion Emerson and brain trust John Reynolds are all over this deal.

Why would we want to support an accord that makes it more difficult and costly to create value-added industry in this province and country? I'll tell you why, because the people in this government have been planning the sellout of this country from the time Steven Harper was in short pants sitting on Preston Manning's knee.

There are some folks who post here who don't seem to care and that's typical. They seem to think that the last 30 years has been a picnic instead of a period in which real wages and average salaries are actually going down while CEOs and executive salaries are rising at between 17 and 39 percent a year.

Why wouldn't working people care about what this means for their jobs? They have families and bills to pay too.

Some of you people are unbelievable!

The BC economy is so red hot that child poverty increased from 2001 to 2005 according to a recent BC Public Health report. How does that happen in a balanced economy?

The softwood lumber deal is the result of our barely prime minister threatening our companies so they have to cave in to unfair USA trade practices, all for the sake of him getting re-elected.Where are the leaders that put the country first, that govern for the benefit of the average people?

Citizens in BC and Canada deserve better. We will not tolerate the divisive and cowardly government of Little Bush for long.

Action at the local level, in spite of Ottawa and Victoria is still possible.Perhaps things have to get bad to reawaken more interest in getting involved to help solve problems instead of creating them. The shrub may be doing us a service by acting is such a despicable way.

Furthermore, I can't believe how blind Cappy/Maybelle, working man, IAMC et al actually are to Harper and his Christianist brethren’s real agenda. Like the Focus on the Family alumnus just appointed deputy minister of the Environment: DO you suppose his purpose is to explain the difficult science to Rona?

Or is it more likely he wants to push an agenda like the following:

Marry him G.West, if that's what you want. Ain't anyone that I know that would condemn you for this.
You must follow your heart in these matters.
Go for it.

The point is Ron, since you seem to need to have everything explained to you, that pee wee and George are products of the fundamentalist Christian right wing. They don't believe in an open and free society where people are guided by their own conscience and not the dictates of someone like Rush Limbaugh or Jerry Falwell. That's not the kind of country even 'you' should want to live in.

I take it you have no problem with a system where the Christian Church and the government walk hand in hand and make the rules for a diverse society.

You really should live in the southern states - you're completely out of place here.

Man, this was all such a good read till I get to IMAC and working man. They're like flies that fall in a good milkshake...they continually f*** up the continuity and flow of discussion.

working man said:

Positive\Negative...who sets the standards on these catagories dude?? You perchance...pulllllease. Have you ever heard of opinion and truth without judgement...?? Anyways, grow up dude...

-Bear

Yah, bear. I suppose negative causes like fighting cancer, ending poverty, starvation and war are what the "unsuccessful" people of the world pursue.

It miffs me that people like working man don't understand that unions are still actually "needed" in this country. Its sad that the union busters of the world have a complete and total disconnect to what the world would now be like without unions, or go back to without the presence of unions as well. Its hard to give posters like working man any credit in the area of common sense, when all he can do is offer extremes as solutions and coffee as rhetoric.

Working man is just another individual who finds it impossible to put himself in the shoes of labour that has no representation or rights. Whether he knows it or not, his blanket solution to get rid of all unions, does nothing for the child labour and harsh and unsafe working conditions labour faces in the poor and developing countries now exploited by the multinational corps of the world (that pay taxes in North America, I might add, so the blood and sweat money of cheap labor is on our hands).

Apparently negative, unfair and unjust working conditions world wide, mean nothing to working man. Human rights violations are negative after all, and a waste of anyones time who wants to succeed in this world... does this about sum up the draconian ideology we keep hearing from working man?

IMAC:

Ah, the cheerleader for the Conservative party on the Tyee, to what do we owe this honor and distinction? Perhaps someone should explain to you what kind of supporters there are for the political teams of the day... for there are two kinds of fans in the stands.

There is the die hard fan and the fickle fan. The die hard fan cheers on his team through thick and thin, through loss and disappointment, through good times and bad. The die hard fan see's his team as doing no wrong regardless of truths that say otherwise, the players are clean and don't do drugs, they don't steal or gamble (even when the truth suggests otherwise), and when the team is losing (like the Cons are with the environment, foreign affairs and soverignty to name a few) the die hard fan cheers anyways, regardless of the poor performances, blowouts, scandals and increasingly poor attendance.

Then there is the fickle fan. The fickle fan bets on the winner. The fickle fan supports the team with the most talent and best leadership from GM, coaching and captains in the field. The fickle fan doesn't support losers, regardless of whether losing teams bear their "favorite brand" or not. Colors are all they are to the fickle fan, just colors, a brand is just a brand, and history becomes dated. Things change... and the fickle fan knows it well.

IMAC, you can go ahead and support your bunch of losers if you want... its a democracy. Democracies need more than one choice, a counter, a check and balance... I like to support individual rights and all (when there is a threat to their existence, that is), would have voted for Pearson I think, might have been gullible enough to vote for Mulroney the first time... but have not yet found the reason in my being to cheer blindly or stupidly for leaders who seek to destroy the very institutions they are elected to defend, or support followers who lack the moral and mental compass to leave such dangerous leaders unchallenged.

Call me fickle.

The deal is just another step, together with the fraudulent "free trade" racket, for the absorption of Canada into the USA.

The plan is for a totally big business owned and controlled government for the coming North American Union (NAU), the North American Competitiveness Council, developed with the conspiracy of 3 big business lobby groups, the Council of Foreign Realations (CFR) in the USA, Tom d'Aquino's Council of Chief Executives in Canada and the Consejo Mexicano de Asantos, who do all the planning, duly signed by the captive governments the own. In short the death of democracy and the establishment of a neofascist, capitalist union, controlled by big business.

Neocon capitalism is just another version of Soviet state capitalist collectivization, depopulating the rural areas and jamming everybody into city cubbyholes for total control.

The purpose of the now planned NAFTA highway is to strip our resources and bring "cheap" Mexican labour North. It is now being constructed in Alberta and the planned widening of Hwy 97 in BC is also part of the scheme, tying BC firmly to the USA.

One of the smaller mills, Pal Lumber in Williams Lake is already closing down.

Ed Deak, Big Lake.

Obviousley Clueless is not paying any attention to what the reality is is Canada with regards to the neo-Nazi's .
No Ronny they are tanking big time .
Gilles Duceppe finally put hos guns on the table and refuses to back your buddy any longer taking away his one ace.
The ability to make all his votes confidence votes .
He is screwed blue and tatooed in Quebec .
They despise this moron and all his minions .
If the Nazi's had a clue they would never have slashed the budget for reading skills development .
Jacques Demers is a frigging hero in Quebec - brought them their last Stanley Cup-and he did it while being functionally illiterate(couldn't read or write) .
The ten so-called Quebec ministers are absolutely useless. Worst than potted palms .
Herr Harpo has no Green plan no exit strategy for Afghanistan , screwed the working class with his last stupid budget......
Nope Ronny is days are numbered to the next election. Early Spring .
And when he loses I pray uou will abandon the Tyee as you make me sick to my stomach you filthy little sycophant .

Holy Sh*t Batman...

let me get my welding mask..

This TYEE topic is becoming a real glowing pissing match.

Looking back...I sense a convenient memory syndrome.

I find it hard to believe that this SoftWood Lumber issue has dragged on for almost 20 years, since the 1980's ...to my personal recollection.

In most of that aforementioned time frame, up to the more recent present , the Federal LIEberals have been in power. What did THEY do to resolve this issue ?

In typical LIEberal fashion...they went out looking out for Canada's interests which in their "bible" is looking out for THEIR right to self entitlement....creating straw men and special interest group ass kissing.aka USELESS .

Like usual...a TYEE topic drags out more zealots than debators...or the debators shed their chameleon skins and show their true(bizarre) colours.

G WEST....sorry....your "tie in" with this SoftWood lumber and Gay marriages (???) made me think of the Monty Python "I'm a Lumberjack" song.

"The post-election `honeymoon' that lifted Tory support tantalizingly close to majority territory seems to be waning, and the Liberals are closing ground," said Graves.

Work with that Clueless !

The Brain elequently and oh so correctly said:

Hey Brain,

Always good to hear from you brother. Yeah indeed this just about sums it up. ;-)

I will not attempt to re-word what you has said so well, but yeah, unions protect the "working man", woman, and child from the exploitation of big industrys... What part of that is hard to understand????

Peace Bro,

Bear

meastro
You completely missed the point - almost as thoroughly as IAMC in this case.

The analogy was meant to emphasize the role of the fundamentalist Christian rightwing in the US and its parallels in the Harper throngs. What the lady was saying - from the piece from the Madison WI. paper - is that she envisions a time when there is 'no' division between church and state.

That's what an awful lot of Harper's most vibrant (and often blue-tinted) supporters also believe about Canada.

The way the Conmen have whipped the industry and the BC Premier into shape on this issue is typical of the kind of intellectual confidence these folks actually have in their 'brand' of democracy. They know that the truth is their enemy.

With focus on the family now handling the environment, I feel a lot better. You couldn't make this stuff up.

I have an interesting editorial on US labour practices I'll post for you later maestro - just so you don't get the idea that I'm a one-trick pony!

Lumberjacks indeed - under the current regime those will soon be the only softwood workers who still have a job - all the logs will be processed by US companies in mills south of the border.

What's to cheer for?

High Bear :
Please email Coyote for an invitation to a new club .
Hannibal

Hello G :
Can we set the 'Bear' up with an invite .
Thanks

Mais Oui Bear, do!

I think it's

isn't it?

Try it, if it doesn't work use this:

which will work.

Cheers

... Thanks guyz...!! I was wondering when I was gonna to be invited (fingernails tapping... ;-)

Peace bro's,

-Bear

Before this thread devolved into the usual name-calling and creative ways of spelling the 'f-word' someone wondered; why EA isn't unionized? I can think of a few reasons, based upon my own experiences as a unionized worker in a different sector of the entertainment industry.

First, you're dealing with mostly young workers. They tend to 'drink the Koolaid' when promised a brass ring, that when seen in the cold, hard light of day is only ever attained by a few within the industry. They all believe they'll be one of the few. Call it the 6-49 phenomenon. Lots of folks buy the tickets, but only a small fraction take home the winnings. Why organize and unionize when you'll be sitting on a beach living off stock options in just a few short years right?

Another factor to consider is that it IS a red-hot industry, and it's easy to throw money around at this point. Will it always be that way? I doubt it. As the tools get easier to use, players will be more able to create their own environments, characters and situations. Just as we are seeing Youtube, Myspace, et al, transform users into user/creators, there will come a time when you can simply tell your game console what kind of game you wish to play and the technology will be there for it to be created w/out requiring the infrastructure of a large company w/ lots of resources and people to make it happen. At that point look to see a lot of out-of-work game programmers wondering what the hell happened and wishing they'd negotiated some kind of severance deal. This is neither mere theory or wishful-thinking, simply a long view based upon past histories, of an industry that is in its infancy. It's called tech change. It's hitting the television industry hard right now, video game industry workers will feel its effects too as the technology (which ironically they will develop!) comes on-line.

Also, there's the machismo factor. In an industry dominated by young men, the guy who can work the longest fuelled only on Coke and Cheetos is the big dog in the pound. Only a wuss whinges about working around the clock for a monthly salary right? Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending upon your perspective, programming high-ballers don't run the risk of injury the way a faller or a long-haul trucker might, so there's no reason for regulatory agencies to get involved and mandate safe, sane working conditions.

And, perhaps most damaging of all, there's little or no education in high school about labour issues and how we got to the point where an 8 hour work day is the norm. Child labour in the coal mines of Wales seems a long way away and a long time ago. For those you who are unaware... it wasn't because of the generosity and good nature of management. Unfortunately, substandard working conditions and recompense haven't been consigned to history just yet. Almost every improvement in working conditions has come about through organization and militancy on the part of labour.

Nothing serves the powers-that-be so well as a populace with no sense of history.

What did Harper promise Gordo to get him to go along with this deal? I mean, the BC Libs weren't initially in favour of it, despite being ideologically hand in glove with the federal conservatives.

Gordo probably didn't need much arm-twisting, but there must have been some kind of back-room dealing.

G West:

Ya got to lighten up....

I was reading these blogs....often one has big time lapses between TYEE viewings and the cornucopia of blogger discussions in between viewings .

Sometimes its much like a Rohrschact(?) test..ie what first comes to mind ???...and the famous Monty Python skit cross- referenced it , nothing more editorial than that.

Keep a bit of objectivity balanced with a skeptical-cynical sense of humour...these TYEE blogger comments often seem like a time warp back to Mao's, Lenin's and Stalin's golden years, and a yearning to return to them.

Very tired of literal and figurative foaming at the mouth TYEE idealogical zealots. As a NON First Nations/ First Generation Canadian,I thought many "left" that kind of BS back over THERE, not have history repeat itself over HERE with this "we know(and NO) better " leftie crap with very bizarre and stretched extrapolations.

The only constant is change,.... the world is full of it, (and unfortunately many TYEE bloggers are "full of it" via a different and somehow unlimited commodity base).

Right on working man when you said.
---------------
14 Hours Ago You can rise at election time. Cast your vote carefully lest you put him back into power.
-----------------------
Let's all remember the old Anarchist expression. "Talk minus action equals zero. For a start make sure you are all on the voters list, spend a bit of time and energy supporting with your writing talents and computer skills for some party other that the one led by Steve. Te cons are staring to hurt a lot of people with their cuts here and there. One group this morning mentioned their MP was a Conservative, and had always supported what the group did. They got cut yesterday with no consultation, no advanced notice and it appeared without bothering to tell a MP in their own New Canadian Government.

You show me where I have ever, once, supported Herr Harper in anythinghe has ever done and I will personally donate $1000 to the NDP. I'll ever scan the cancelled cheque and e-mail to to anyone who wants it.

Herr Harper is a great danger to Canada, to Canada's institutions, to Canada's social programmes and to Canadian working people. The Softwood deal is a total sell-out, something the Liberals would have never done.

NDPers are laughable and responsible for putting and keeping Herr Harper and power. When you cast your vote next time (assuming that anynone here advocating violence actually does)think very carefully:

"Is my vote putting Herr Harper back into power? The NDP will never form a government. How should I vote?"

Hey, maybe actually speaking to people who don't always agree with you is a good thing. If the NDP did that, they might actually form a government some day. Fat chance, but never say never. It must be terribly frustrating for you people. All rhetoric no power. Why not try to get some?

Garbage. The LIBERAL party lost the trust of CANADIANS, so CANADIANS voted the LIBERALS out of office. Until the Liberal party departs from their habitual arrogance and quits trying to blame somebody else for their failings, they do not deserve power.

It was Smilin' Jack who brought the last government down, for his own politcal gain. Now we are all living with the consequences.

Stump:
Thank you for taking the time to explain about the entertainment industry and it lack of unions!
You hit the nail right on the head, describing what motivates the young aspiring employees!
That sort of mentality has also existed in the direct selling field for a long time (example: real estate salesmen), where every new recruit thinks everything depends on how hard he works, forgetting that only 20% of those hard working people actually make any money!
The casualties are soon forgotten, and the "Winners" get their name displayed on the whiteboard.
Of course that is the way we all are manipulated, only some of us have brains enough to join a union and a political party!
If enough people would wake up and join, the tables would soon be turned!
This is still a democracy, right? statistics show that the vast majority are NOT wealthy!
Draw the conclusion, we need to demand our rights!
A revolution is not the only way, voting will do, get the parasites out!
Emerson is the typical parasite, feeding wherever the opportunity exist! First with the multinationals, then Liberals and now Conservatives, and yes most likely next our senate!
So who is left to vote for: Well try to see who constantly expose these bastards!
The media will never endorse NDP, and that should tell you something!

Get that off Liberal caucus talking points did you?

Jack helped give the people of Canada the opportunity to deliver THEIR verdict on the Liberal government. It speaks volumes that no-one in the Liberal party seems able accept that verdict.

Compared to at least 80% of the people in the world, even Canadian high school dropouts with their average annual salary of $22,000 a year are enormously wealthy.

But then again, if Vegas is as far as you have ever travelled, you wouldn't know that, or how fortunate you are.

And he put Harper into power doing it, too. Just like the Greens helped put Gordon Campbell into power.

Vote carefully.

Simple solution to a complex problem

"The post-election `honeymoon' that lifted Tory support tantalizingly close to majority territory seems to be waning, and the Liberals are closing ground," said Graves.

I am still waiting,in vain it would appear, for one of the candidates to stand up and say we are opting out of NAFTA forever .
Simple solution .

working man said:

Yeah, for sure working man, but I learn more from intelligent opposition then "flys in my milkshake" ... I hope that doesn't come off as too negative...

-Bear

Simple solution to a complex problem The answer is to simply return to the safer, more effective, already existing multilateral WTO framework of which Canada and the U.S. are both still members.

Under the WTO, we have all the levers to get back the $5 billion the U.S. has taken in lumber tariffs and to make sure it doesn't happen again.

When Washington not long ago threatened hefty steel duties against Europe, Japan and a number of other steel exporters, Europe triggered the WTO retaliatory process and the Bush administration backed down.

The same defences are available to Canada under the WTO.

Since signing the FTA and NAFTA, the United States has taken 10 trade actions against the Canadian Wheat Board, Canada's largest net earner of foreign currency, and we now have U.S. tariffs against our wheat exports.

In all the years of trading with the U.S. under GATT, the Americans never launched a single formal action against the wheat board, because they knew they could not win.

The essence of the FTA and NAFTA is that they cede vital government powers to the U.S. and the private sector that were used to build an independent Canada.

What the U.S. wants out of the repeated challenges against Canadian lumber exports is to wear Canada down until it agrees to privatize its crown-owned forests, opening them to direct U.S. ownership.
Ooops ! Had the wrong info pasted into my browser .

I see. Anything that is not Off the Shelf, Rhetoric or the Party Line is not "intelligent."

Thanks for clearing that up.

" Ummm. Excuse me waiter there are a bunch of flies in my milk shake "

Well working man a wise man once said" If you don't stand for something,you will fall for anything "
I am entirely confused as to just what your politics are . You slam both the left and the right . Who is left ?

There is a simple way out, without bluster or insults. Canada does not have to give up ownership of its forests, its industries and its institutions.

With a simple letter to the U.S., under FTA Article 2106, NAFTA Article 2205, Canada can, with six months notice, withdraw from these agreements without penalty and without conditions.

Our trading relations with the U.S. will then automatically revert back to the GATT/WTO framework of international law, which will enable us to both maintain our institutions and trade profitably with the U.S.

All of the intolerable NAFTA rights U.S. companies now have over Canada — to sue the Canadian government, to overturn Canadian laws, to control our exports and energy prices — would disappear. Canada would regain its status as a sovereign nation.

Chasing the dream of a "special relationship" and some kind of shortcut to "secure access" to the U.S. market is a dangerous delusion which has cost Canada dearly.

Superpowers do not have friends or "special relationships," they have interests and they pursue them. Canada must learn to do the same.

Hannibal, I agre with you all the way, however, have you heard of the secretly negotiated treaties, like the NAU, the GATS. the FTAA, or even the WTO, the so called "rules based trade agreements, in other words, the destruction of democracy and its replacement with corporate neofascism, big business is desperately trying to force on us and the world?

And they're getting away with it.

Ed Deak.

I'm moved to indulge in a little transactional analysis here. There's a lot of talk about treason. Everybody senses treason, but when we look at the statutes, the accusation is short circuited by the fact that the ones being called traitors have the legal authority to do the things they're doing. We understand that we're betrayed, but our distress comes from no definable direction.

We are left angry, but randomize the objects of our anger, because we keep trying to understand in the categories we have historically been used to applying . The categories of nation states.

I believe there is a war being waged, but very little of it can be understood in conventional national language. It's a new thing. It's goal is the corporatization of the world. It seeks to render the world into property, then render that property into the hands of...well, corporations, I suppose. Let's say alliances of corporations.

Even that is somewhat illusory, since these corporations themselves are only the expressions of an ideology. Tools of certain people who believe that the great masses of people are not real. That the only real people are the ones ruthless and clever enough to manipulate others, rob and use them to acquire money and power enough to rise above the possibility of being punished for their crimes.

When we accuse Liberals, or Conservatives, or Americans, or Canadians or even companies, we lose our way. All of these institutions are equally betrayed by these multi-national traitors. All these were attacked secretly, stealthily infiltrated and converted to serve the cause.

High Ed:
No but I'd be ,very,interested to learn do you have links or should I Google ?

The history of this movement is interesting.

In the 50s, Ayn Rand exported a Soviet style philosophy from Communist Russia, where she felt it would find insufficient scope because of the needs of society, to Capitalist America, where she began to teach the idea that the elite are above law. From reading her, I can't tell if she was aware of the irony of her Objectivism, which was that it was exactly the same as the core belief of National Socialism in Germany, where whole populations were proposed to be allowed to serve the common good by being made into soap.

I do believe, however that she WAS aware that it would, if adopted, lead to the return of slavery, feudalism and reverse the historial trend toward general prosperity and humanism.

Her disciples have infiltrated universities, and from there, all the institutions mentioned above, and others as well.

In all nations and all political parties without exception. All corporate fields. Religions. Charities.

Every human institution created to manage our wealth in society to promote common values. No values can be permitted to exist, you see, except financial ones.

Other human values give the lie to the whole movement, so they must be wiped out or subverted, much like the Jews in Europe in the last century. If allowed to exist, they are evidence of the big lie at the heart of things, and a threat to the elite who need us to believe that lie.

Hannibal, best go to google and look for
"North American Union", "GATS", "FTAA"

All of them corporate negotiated treaties curbing the democratic decision powers of peoples and replacing them with "profits, profits uber alles" type of fascism. There are no democratic corporations, churches, or military, that's why they always conspire how to create dictatorships under their combined rule

I'm enclosing my latest column in the Gold River Record on this subject.

Ed Deak
========================================
Fiat lux # 173 Oct. 6, 2006.

So what does everybody think of the NAU? How do you like it ?

You mean you never heard of it and have no idea what the letters mean ? Some people may be surprised, but those of us who follow and research to find the real the news stories, combined with a certain degree of historical knowledge, the secrecy maintained by our neofascist governments, both at the provincial and federal levels, is nothing new. Being “business friendly” they have to maintain secrecy of their actions, misinformation, deceit and propaganda to become and remain “competitive”. Competitive against their own peoples to reduce services and protection, cut costs of production while increasing them to the public so that our multinational lords of the universe can increase their profits every day. Our next shopping day will be on Thursday the 12th and I'd bet against any odds that prices will, again, be up from two weeks ago, because that's the purpose of economic competition.

NAU means the North American Union, eliminating the countries of Canada, USA and Mexico and combining them under a common, corporately owned and controlled government to facilitate the “unhindered, free movement of capital”. Which, in the shallow, crooked minds of our politicians should solve all problems and bring “prosperity” to all. The now constantly repeated word “prosperity”, brings back memories of the great Mulroney, who swore that the US-Canada FTA will bring “lower prices and prosperity” to our countries. Well, it only brought about 500 percent inflation, the destruction of our sovereignty and industries. That's why Chretien signed the Mulroney negotiated NAFTA to bring more of the same, covering up the brutal realities with a controlled and censored media, writing pussycat and crime stories to divert attention from realities.

Although the origins of the NAFTA, the failed Multilateral Agreement on Investment and now of the NAU, go back many years, long planned in corporate boardrooms, the coffin of Canadian independence was prepared at the March 23, 2005 meeting between the then Canadian PM Paul Martin, George Bush and Mexican President Vincente Fox at Waco, Texas. That's where they signed the Security and Prosperity Partnership, (SPP), without any consultation of the people, or the legislatures of either countries. They counted on and knew very well that the propaganda campaign, developed by the best mind benders on Earth, will fool people into believing that the Age of Bargain Shopping has arrived. The same garbage people swallowed with the FTA and NAFTA.

Coninued.....

Working man
You don't overtly support Harper wm but your dogmatic corporatist go along to get along big 'L' liberal attitude is exactly the same as Harper's. You may be a Liberal but you're not a liberal in any sense that's meaningful - that's why you and hannibal can't see eye to eye.

Furthermore, your approach to the left is far more like Harper's than any real liberal's. You hate the NDP with the same intemperate passion that Harper does - both of you see the left as the spawn of the devil. I'm much more likely to believe the same thing about neocons like Harper and his gang.

The real Liberals understood long ago that most of the good ideas come from the left and appropriated them in order to stay in power.

I don't really care where the good ideas come from as long as they begin to have some traction for the people who really need help.

Continued...

The original timetable for the implementation of the NAU was 2010, but under the present, corrupt, big business controlled governments in all three countries, the timetable has been moved up to 2007. Which means, that there may not be a Canada in a year and we'll live under a

“rules based investment system”, otherwise known and fascism, where people are deprived of their decision making powers, homes, human rights and do as they are told, or else they can starve.

Under the NAU, the borders of the three countries will be eliminated and a “common border security” will be set up. The three nations will “implement a border-facilitation strategy to build capacity to improve the legitimate flow of people and cargo at our shared borders”. The US dollar being totally worthless, our “prestigious conservative economic think tanks”, in reality corporate PR hacks, have long been pushing for the elimination of the Canadian dollar and replacing the currencies of the three countries with the Amero, so the banks can “create” more imaginary capital for world control. At least until the world wakes up to the fraud.

The originators of the plan, the Council on Foreign Relations, (CFR) in the USA, the Canadian Council of Chief Executives of little Tom d'Aquino, and the Consejo Mexicano de Asuntos Internacionales, in other words the controlling Fat Cats, had their orders ready for the “leaders”, who dutifully signed everything put in front of them. What they are proposing is similar and based on the European Union (EU), yet its originators deny this.

We, who fought against the FTA and NAFTA, have been predicting for years, that these phoney treaties were preparation for the corporate dictatorship of the three countries. The SPP plan is to “Create a proto-parliament called The North American Competitiveness Council...to address issues of immediate importance and provide strategic advice...” “to create a single energy policy for North America” , ....”to identify measures to facilitate further the movement of business persons”. This means control of our resources, especially water, and imported cheap labour. The preparations are well under way here in B.C. with the forced depopulation of rural areas, the planned privatization of our forests and waters, the forcing of people into shoebox apartments in mega cities, the destruction of the family farm, and of real, community based private enterprise, through the overcapitalized collectivization of industry and land with the movement of imaginary capital.

The politicians are so certain the people will just lie down and give up their democratic rights of self determination, that they're already placing orders for the building of a new NAFTA superhighway system, apparently a mile wide corridor, starting at Laredo on the Mexican border, through Texas, Kansas, connecting to the Canadian system at Duluth, Minnesota. Here in BC, the four laning of Hwy 97 is part of this scheme to take our resources South in Mexican trucks and to bring slave labour North to replace the “overpaid, socialist Canadians”. In Alberta, work is already under way on a six and four lane highway without any traffic lights and exits at 2 mile intervals at population centres, starting at Sweetgrass, Montana, then bypassing Lethbridge, McLeod, Calgary, Edmonton, Valleyview, Grand Praerie and joining the Alaska Hwy. at Dawson Creek.

The main purpose of these NAFTA highways is the elimination of any Canadian identity on an East-West scale, by replacing it with a controlled North South movement, where people will be constantly moved to “where the jobs are”, to keep them insecure, unsettled, unattached and unthinking. This is what globalization is about: The resurrection of the Soviet dream under a different flag. I'm very happy to be old and hope there's no such thing as reincarnation, as I have no wish to be reborn into another fascists world , as I was once before.

"profits, profits uber alles"

The biggest problem of the modern age has never been more succintly articulated.

Would make a hell of a t-shirt slogan. Would probably get you arrested.

Is it really? I don't exactly see how.

Many have been for good and bad. Some of the good ones were the Guaranteed Annual Income, known better by the moniker CCTB. One of the bad ones was nationalization of industries, which was not a good thing for Canada.

I do however, believe, if there is a good idea, use it. That is the essence of being non-dogmatic, practical and a pragmatist. A pragmatist, such as myself, understands that politcal office and power are much different than idealoogy and rhetoric. This is where the NDP fails repeatedly because it cannot sever itself, or at least examine, its ideaology. About 80% of voters (actually more) recognise this and do not vote NDP. That party will always be a fringe player. It will not form governments. It had, in fact, a lot more clout and infulence in the last governemt, which it brought down.

That leaves us with a choice: The Conservative or the Liberals. Harper is an American flunky who will Mulroney seem like a saint should he ever get a majority government. The Liberals, on the other hand, have been in power for the majority of the time since confederation and have, in my opinion, done a very good job at shaping us into a modern, wealthy country with one of the highest standards of living in the world. They are not saints; they have always done what they had to get elected. By doing so the Liberals have been able to form governments that do good things for working Canadians, like Medicare, CPP, EI and the CCTB. Where these ideas Liberal? Not necessarily but they are the ones who got the votes to actually implement polices that help the great majority of Canadians. That is infinately more uselful and utilitarian than pontification from a rhetorical and ideaological soap box.

This is where the NDP constantly misses the boat. It does not do what it has to in order to hold office. It is also ideaologically incapable of doing so. Therefore, no matter how wonderful and great its polices are, it can never implement them because it will never get the number of votes it needs to form a government.

Thus, I choose to put my vote to a party that can actually from a government in Canada. There are only two parties capable of forming a government in Canada. One is not the NDP.

Pragamatism remains.

G West said:

...beautiful and well-said G.

Peace,

-Bear

"Pragmatism" (note the slight spelling error in your vers. which I point out to inform, not to be a spelling Nazi) aka "the ends justify the means" is a slippery slope. Watch your footing.

I disagree that the NDP can't form a government. I predict they will at some point in the next two or three decades, as the gap between rich and poor widens. Guess which group has more votes? As I've mentioned previously in another thread, the political trend has been slowly leftward, as right-wing parties find themselves forced to adopt people-friendly policies put forward by left-leaning politicians who more accurately represent the average guy/gal's everyday concerns.

When they find the right leader who has charisma, a tv-friendly appearance, and can balance the party's green and blue-collar mandates, nothing will be able to stop them. Hey, that sounds a bit like me! Does 24 Sussex have a bike rack?

Maybe you are correct. And maybe they will have to change to do it, too, as voter demographics will be radically different in the that two or three decades. I prefer to keep Herr Harper out of office now, though.

And maybe the NDP will have to become a little more business friendly themselves, especially to the small and medium business people (who they claim to support) who they persecuted in BC in the 1990. No big business means no big unions and the Clark government hugely favoured big firms over small ones during the tenure that all but wiped the NDP out in British Columbia.

In 30 years the Clark legacy may be forgotten and I will be long retired on a tropical beach somewhere. I won't foget but I won't care.

Coalition for Fair Lumber Imports Welcomes Implementation of the U.S. - Canada Softwood Lumber Agreement

WASHINGTON, Oct. 13 /CNW/ -- The Coalition for Fair Lumber Imports
welcomes the implementation of the softwood lumber agreement between the
United States and Canada.
Coalition chairman Steve Swanson stated that "the implementation of this
agreement was achieved following difficult negotiations and significant
compromises by both the United States and Canada."
"The Coalition hopes that this agreement will provide the mechanism by
which to find a permanent solution to this unfortunate dispute between our two
nations," continued Mr. Swanson.
"The U.S. lumber industry wishes to recognize the leadership of President
Bush and Prime Minister Harper, and the skill and dedication of Ambassador
USTR Susan Schwab and her team, in making this seven to nine year agreement a
reality," stated Mr. Swanson.
Mr. Swanson concluded by stating "we look forward to working with the
U.S. government to ensure that the agreement provides the intended benefits to
U.S. sawmills and mill workers."

That about says it all .

Domtar broadens Quebec's 'crisis'
Sawmill closings will axe 940 jobs

MONTREAL -- The crisis in Eastern Canada's forest products sector deepened yesterday, when Domtar Inc. said it will indefinitely close three sawmills in Quebec and one in Ontario, leaving 940 people jobless.

The move came a day after Abitibi-Consolidated Inc. said it is shutting four sawmills and related forest activities, putting close to 700 employees out of work. Including other mill shutdowns announced last week, the tally over just the past eight days is 2,275 jobs lost.

Companies blame a number of factors, including Canada's high dollar, falling prices as U.S. housing demand slumps, plus rising raw material and production costs.

Quebec Premier Jean Charest said at a news conference yesterday that the province's forest sector is in the throes of the "worst crisis" in its history.
Forestry cuts continue
Domtar Inc. has announced the indefinite closing of four sawmills due to the pressure of higher timber costs and lower demand for both lumber and wood chips.

Forestry

Job cuts: 450

Reduced production capacity: 400 million board feet of lumber.

Matagami

Job cuts: 100

Stud mill: 153 million board feet of lumber

Wood chips: 151 MOBT*

Shutdown: Oct. 27

Lebel-sur-Quévillon

Job cuts: 125

Stud mill: 140 million board feet of lumber

Wood chips: 168 MOBT*

Shutdown: Immediate

Nairn Centre

Job cuts: 140

Random length mill: 150 million board feet of lumber

Wood chips: 124 MOBT*

Shutdown: Oct. 13

Val d'Or

Job cuts: 125

Stud mill: 190 million board feet of lumber

Wood chips: 171 MOBT*

Shutdown: Oct. 27
The blood letting continues

Now, look at the great goddamn free for all I missed. :-)

Fun to read. Yet a dead serious set of issues which define the difference between the Neocon Right on the one hand, and the broad Left and Progressive movement of "the people" on the other.

And Stump, an astute observation above, which tells us a great deal of what is wrong and/or happening to young working people and working people generally , the great unorganized. They have forgotten the history of class organization and organizing in this country, and because of that and failures of unions themselves, in many important regards, they have fallen prey to the underpinning and self-serving ideological mantra of capitalism, which is "Every man/ woman for himself/ herself, and the Devil take the hindmost."

But there's also an additional element, I think, which is that over the postwar years, from the end of the last war until the late 70s to early 80s, there was a great world wide reconstruction project, to rebuild Europe and other parts of the world, that enriched capitalism beyond anything previously seen in history. And our North American ruling class, here and in the US , fearful of the early power of the ideas of what was at least thought to be Communism and the growing strength of a militant trade union movement, was motivated to buy off that perceived danger, with a willingness to "share" some of that obscene wealth at the bargaining table and on the picket lines with the working class.

Which, not to put too fine a point on it. worked.

That is worked until the 1980s-, basically upon the completion of that historic work of rebuilding capitalism in many overseas parts of the then world, and growing competition between the various capitalist states, brought a rising "Neocon" movement away from "appeasing" or buying off the working class. Their militancy and preparedness to challenge capitalism had basically by then collapsed anyway, the trade union movement reduced more to a collaborationist class structure with the big corporations and public/state sectors, reduced to negotiating nickles and dimes in place of class struggle, social and political goals, and challenging "the system".

What has been since the collapse of Operation Solidarity in 1983, after a half-hearted trade union attempt to challenge this change in ruling class direction, more or less, is a loss of its sense of mission, and an ever more apparent retreat from its challenge of the capitalist direction of society, and a further confinement than even before with being content pursuing nickles and dimes, or spare change. All of which has worked to steadily reduce the attractiveness and effectiveness of the trade union movement, save for the chosen few in strategic positions within the economy, where gains, if reduced, continue to be made-, creating resentments between the haves and have nots amongst the working class.

Which brings us fundamentally to where we are, within a capitalist system becoming more and more a globalized, secretive, conspiratorial and anti-democratic against the majority societal interest, as described very well by Fait Lux, especially that of its working class, people on the land, and poor.

continued next post...

from previous post...

Now, however, with the impending creation of this North Amerikan Union, this entire Neoconservative work since the first Restraint Budgets and deunionizations of the working class in the late 70s, and "Labour" reduced to a rump kind of quasi collaborationist movement, and with the liberalization of the NDP, fallen victim to its own kind of collaboration with the system, it all approaches a new qualitative stage of anti-democratic "corporatist" development. And make no mistake, joined with all the social, political and economic changes that have already gone on within new neoconservative capitalism, it is intended that it is the power of the Big Corporations that shall be enhanced and enshrined here, against that interest of the ordinary, certainly working class citizenry.

And with it, all that history and struggle that went into making Canada what it was and what we wanted it to be, will all be reduced to snarly piece of US Empire ass-wipe.

Are we next?

Wow, Coyote, that was a really good dissertation. I agree with almost all of it.

This might be of interest here.

http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NewAge/Delphi_Technique.htm

Excellent, Bailey.

That's the real treachery of the present situation. The sanctioning of this deadly corporate ruse through the conventional, the everyday...under the guise of merely doing business.

Few are aware of the invisible war being waged... it is so seamless in the way it has entrenched itself. There is no horror, no bloody battlefield...just mounting losses...in human rights, in the environment... and in all that we hold valuable in life. Alien is the word that keeps coming to mind.

This "new thing" that you have so perceptively described, Bailey, demands that we defend ourselves in a new way. What that new way is, I am not so sure.

Hey working man you support the party that has done as much damage to this country if not more then mulroney!

paul martin gave d aquino lots of corporate gifts at the expense of our infrastructure and social programs.

If it hadn't been for Layton he would have given them more billions in tax breaks on top of the 4.7 billion he gave them right after he became the pm.

This while our hospitals and highways are falling apart, more and more people forced onto the streets so foreigners can reap the benefits. I don't get you!

I agree with Bailey and Lynn, there is a war being waged and these people are a big part of this war and not in a good way. Maybe we give our hard earned money to companies who do not support this group and are not part of them!

http://www.ceocouncil.ca/en/

Hey working man any of the policies on this web page look familiar, more like a mandate for paul martin in my opinion! And harper!

Our shadow government, I think more people should go out and rent the movie THE CORPORATION before turning control of our country over to the likes of d aquino!

I don't get him either, Ursus. A walking contradiction he is.

That's alright. You keep hanging around here Working Man. You're good practice for the brothers and sisters, and me. :-)

Lynn said it, and she's right. And she's right in her assessment of Bailey too.

Bailey, your ability to strike into the heart of this matter and this very particular social development period, never ceases to amaze me.

Sometimes we have quarreled brother, but that is not important. That's a given. We and a not small number of us here, coming from many societal and development directions, are fundamentally agreed at a very important level. I am not unaware of that.

My only wee fear is, that things could very soon and big time begin to get quite ugly here. Is already.

But there's more. Much more yet. We are still just at the start of this second phase in the development of this still rising Neoconservative Capitalism, or as Fait would say more to the point, Fascism.

It is getting creepy.

Surprise surprise Leonard J. Asper CanWest Global Communications Corp is a member of d aquino's little group.

http://www.ceocouncil.ca/en/about/members.php

Thanks lynn, It's a tough question, innit? We want to be able to fall back into the familiar. But what difference who you vote for if all the parties have the enemy at their helms?

However, I still have hope. If only from the fact that this enemy still feel the need to maintain this extraordinary secrecy. They must fear something, don't you think? We just need to figure out what.

Maybe we can get a clue by seeing what they hate. Bush and son have both made it clear, for example, that they will never submit to international justice at the Hague. Using such things as the Geneva conventions, the war trials at Nuremberg and the international law of the sea to define international law, even multi-national criminals might still be brought to book under some circumstances.

Perhaps we could arrange something like that. I remember reading about a mock trial held in, I think Sweden in the 60s. Nixon, and several of his generals and cabinet were tried in absentia for crimes against humanity and war crimes arising out of VietNam. This court had no real power to enforce it's findings, but just following the forms of the rule of law was a very powerful weapon and contributed to Nixon's fall.

If the international court had a police force like Interpol, to go across borders, investigate and arrest criminals, even heads of state, when they commit such crimes against peace, that might just be a thing.

If that was in place, laws could be written regarding election fraud. International bodies could monitor elections in all countries, to keep everyone honest. They could publish reports, adding a layer of transparency to proceedings.

Do you think something like that might start putting power back into the hands of the people?

Very funny Working Moron!
What counts in Canada is the standard of living one may accomplish here in a lifetime!
The average tradesman had a better chance of getting ahead in the sixties than today!
The average young family is likely to depend on the parents to help them get started these days, what kind of progress is that?
But if you think that the majority are doing so well, then why is it that they buy toys (fancy cars etc.)?
Simply because they already gave up on ever owning their own house!
In a few decades we have evolved to becoming renters, forever doomed to rent-increases and evictions.
Some day the class differences will be so great, that NDP becomes the obvious choice for the majority!

Of course, there's a war being waged and it has been going on since the the time the first human stood on two legs, or even before that.

Wealth can not be created, only taken and it has to be accomplished either with the violence of war, crime, or crime sanctified and legalized with the perceived power of religions and ideologies.

Wealth is the temporary control of energy and history is the account of wealth takings.

The biggest crime wave in history is going on right now under the guise of the neocon/neolib/neoclassical economic theory of globalized market economy capitalism, using the perceived power of freshly created imaginary capital to search, destroy and conquer.

Ed Deak.

Dear Ed, Thank you for reminding us what we're really looking at here.

It's really nothing more than a bank robbery. The size of the haul and the big names we read in the papers tend to dazzle us and obscure that fact.

A bank robbery is still just a bank robbery, even if the robber has weasled himself into the head office. And hired media types to baffle us with bullsh it

Lynn said:

This "new thing" that you have so perceptively described, Bailey, demands that we defend ourselves in a new way. What that new way is, I am not so sure.

Hi lynn,

As Coyote said Bailey nails it, but I too appreciate the way you describe the same. "Mounting losses in human rights, in the enviroment", yeah, you needn't look further than what the outright lies, and half truths, on industry and govern't sites. It is disturbing indeed...

There is a war going on, but I am sure it is not bloodless. The animals that have lost their habitat due to the onslaught of industry...they bleed.

We will need a shift in how to fight it if we refuse to loose what we love. :-)

Peace lynn,

-Bear

Again, I am flattered by the name calling. I am, fortunately, above that.

Alive, I suggest you save up you welfare cheques and take a trip to a place like the Philippines. It would really open your eyes and mind.

You'll need one of those blue passport thingies. If you need help getting one, let me know.

That theory is known as Merchantilism. More wealth has in fact been created since 1945 than in the previous 5000 years.

But then again, you do not know how well off you are. Only about 20% of the people in the world (and that is a high estimate, actually) can access the internet.

This might be a good place to start:

Charges Filed Against Bush in Vancouver

Lawyers Against The War have filed torture charge against George Bush. This story has received little attention in the US press but has been verified by Charlie Smith who teaches investigative journalism at Kwantlen University College.

LAW Press Release - December 2, 2004
Court date to be set for torture charges against Bush

Lawyers against the War applied today to have the torture charges against George BushÂ*set before a judge to determine whether a summons or warrant should issue.Â*A date will be set in BC Provincial Court, Criminal Division, at Vancouver on Monday December 6th 2004.

Torture charges against Bush were laid November 30th 2004 by Gail Davidson, co-chair of Lawyers against the War.

http://www.impeachbush.tv/news/no41202.html

Impeaching Bush is a very good idea. He certainly deserves it.

Unfortunately, it isn't going to happen, either.

Nuthin' will happen without imagination ... Lawyers Against the War have developed a process. The process and its participants might provide some inspiration. That's all.

WM....The wealth we use and take for granted has not been created, but taken from the conversion of resources into goods and distributed in a fraudulent way to benefit only certain areas and sectors.

The fact is that what we consider wealth, today, is mostly waste and it could be distributed in a way to allow at least the majority of the human race benefit from it.

However, it can not be done with ideology based, idiotic economic theories, whether they're called communism or capitalism, because the beneficiaries are always the same predator class under different flags

As far not knowing what I have, please don't judge everybody with your mental capacity and life experience. When WW2 ended I was under the sentence of death and when they took me to a hospital, a few days after the war, with a rotting leg, I weighed 47 kg, at 18 years and 5'11". After that I lived for 5 out of 6 the following years in camp and barrack conditions, doing the lowest and dirtiest jobs to survive.

The people I'm fighting for are those who're still living under similar circumstances, in the streets and shacks, starving every day.

I use the internet as the first chance in history, when ordinary people could collect and exchange information not censored by a ruling class.

When I was 16 and in Grade 11, we had a hand lithographed school paper edited and printed by my class. I was one of the editors. We had to submit every word we wrote to military/government censors, who often cut large chunks from our teenager writings.

This is why I hate this neofascist gang on their way to colonize and enslave the world in the name of "free enterprise, free trade".

By the way, I've been a registered voter in BC since 1956, business and property owner since 1957. The difference is that I have had 22 years of consulting in the offices and homes and boardrooms of the biggest names in business in Vancouver, so I know how they think and behave and what they've been planning for decades.

Most of them are dead now, but their successors are even worse predators.

Ed Deak.

WM, you really do need to dwell on this piece above first. It only seems like a Haiku or Zen riddle. And then you really do need to appreciate that "numbers" of us here have not lived the life that you do or have. We know how we got the standard of living, a declining number, but still many working people relatively enjoy here, and the struggle and picket lines it took to get it. Even you "unorganized" scabs managed to secure some of the spillover benefits, which the boss class gave you, in order to keep you out of unions. To disarm you. To make you a compliant tool.

Not all of us were scabs. We fought the fights that set the benchmarks you came along to enjoy with nary a goddamn risk, thinking it all dropped down from some Capitalist God in Market Heaven.

Well fella, pay some attention to a few folks who have been around a lot longer than you, when we say that what was won or given, however you want to describe it, can just about as easily be taken away. Is being taken away, in a process that has been going on since the late 70s. And what assists that power grab sleight of hand the system is pulling over on you, more than anything else, is your own not having a fucking clue and living in a delusional reality.

They depend on it.

Nahhh. You don't need to go to the far off Phillipines, or anywhere else for that matter, and I've been to many of those places. They have their own history and explanations for their particular positions and status in the world.

What you need to do is really just open your fuggin' eyes and look around you, walk the streets of Vancouver, its downtown eastside and poor, minimum wage working class neighbourhoods. And pay attention. Don't believe everything the fuggin' Man and His media tell you, or the fabricated illusions he spins for you.

Pay attention to what is going on around you, and don't be distracted by the bullshitt notion that your life has to be compared to that of someone else many, many miles away, with a separate and distinct national, economic, land base, resource and class reality history from your own.

They are just fukin' with your head, and you are falling for it like the classic naive fool.

Doh!!

There's so much way, way out there that you just never will be able to change, even if you understand it. 'Cause they have to change it for themselves, most of them, if they can just get us and the Empire off their backs, and deal with their own corrupt ruling classes. Focus on the here and now, and where you live. This you can change, if you stop standing against those all the time who want to, and are attempting to martial the forces that actually can.

It's about who controls the economy and the street, stupid. It's you and your fellows, or it's them. And of course they want you to believe that it is their economy.

And the consequence of it being them is, just about what Fait Lux, Bailey and others here are trying to tell you. They organize it all to serve them, with the compliant assistance of folks just about like you. (And they are burning through the planet just about as fast as they can, immigration, cheap labour, market expansion, make babies, make babies, burden yourself, more, faster, harder productivity,waste and war-, before you can even wake up and figure out what they are friggin' up to: Making themselves so goddamn rich, so fast, that you are simply overwhelmed and feel like a failure.)

Which, for so long as the status quo continues, you and we are. Small potatoes. Spare change.

I recall vaguely that I'd promised to post a short editorial about unions and labour practices here earlier. It deals with the US but has implications - given folks like Working man (ironic choice of title) and their attitudes:
[It will have to be in two sections, just missing the magic 4100 characters]

Keeping labor organizers at bay used to be a bloody business. In May 1937, when United Auto Workers leader Walter Reuther tried to unionize a Ford plant in Dearborn, Michigan, he was confronted by Henry Ford's hired goons. In the mêlée that ensued, the legendary labor organizer was slammed to the ground, kicked in the head, and tossed down multiple flights of stairs.

Today's business executives don't hire goons--and, thanks to George W. Bush, they don't need to. While every worker technically has the right to organize and join a union, not all can do so under the protection of the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB), which sanctions government-supervised union elections and bars employer harassment. Denying certain workers these protections blocks them, in effect, from unionizing. And that is exactly what the NLRB--currently dominated by conservative Bush appointees--has done. For instance, the board has denied protection to certain temporary workers and subcontracted employees. Now the NLRB has handed business its biggest such victory yet: Earlier this month, it ruled that the nurses at a Michigan acute-care facility who set schedules for other nurses are not really employees but rather supervisors--which means they aren't protected by the NLRB. The Economic Policy Institute estimates that the decision could prevent as many as eight million workers in similar roles from joining unions. That would certainly please business leaders. But it should make the rest of us uneasy.

Professionals--such as the Michigan nurses--were a miniscule part of the U.S. workforce in 1937, when Reuther battled Ford in Dearborn. Today, they represent over one-fifth of all workers, and labor's survival in this country probably depends upon its growth in that sector. Many of these professionals occupy an ambiguous space in the workforce: Though they have little or no control over wages and workplace conditions, they still perform minor supervisory roles. Software programmers, for example, serve as team leaders; nurses have aides; and scientists rely on lab assistants.

Businesses are using this ambiguity to exploit an obscure 1947 amendment to the original National Labor Relations Act. The amendment, designed to prevent factory foremen from joining unions, denied supervisors NLRB protection to organize. Until recently, however, the NLRB still counted workers (including professionals) as employees rather than supervisors if they performed only rudimentary supervisory tasks. That was in keeping with the bill's original intent: The Senate's analysis of the amendment at the time distinguished actual supervisors from "straw bosses, leadmen, set-up men, and other minor supervisory employees." And the bill itself distinguished between the "independent judgment" of supervisors and the "discretion and judgment" exercised by professional employees.

[And here's the rest of it. BTW, it's from the New Republic 10.23.06]

That undoubtedly warms the hearts of Republicans everywhere. Labor's power may be on the wane, but unions are still the country's most organized advocates for social and economic equality--and a key counterweight to the political influence of big business. As Bush ally Grover Norquist explained in 2004, "Every worker who doesn't join the union is another worker who doesn't pay $500 a year to organized labor's political machine." No wonder Bush's NLRB appointees are so eager to strike blows against labor like the one they delivered this month. Think of it as the bureaucratic equivalent of being thrown down a flight of stairs.
- the Editors

CLEAN UP THE LANGUAGE OR BE BANNED FROM COMMENTING, 'SPANKY.' -- TYEE EDITOR

Hey working man do a little research on the standard of living enjoyed by folks living in right to work states and those living in states who protect workers rights.

I know that it hurts to be called a moron, Perhaps if you had not choosen to misrepresent yourself by that "Working Man" moniker, it would not have been so tempting?
Had you answered questions raised by posters instead of picking side-issues to preach about, then perhaps you would gain respect?
As it is, many find it futile to try to have a discussion with a person who avoid issues.
Even more people get upset when you (and others) jump to conclusions about the person you write about!
In my own case I have been assumed to be: old, bitter and poor as well as a bigot and uninformed about the world!
Fortunately I do not have to disclose my name,rank and serial number in order to contribute here!
So, take it in your stride, you act like a moron, guess what: then people refer to you as one!
We all know that you have intelligence as do others who seem to pick an argument just to have something to write about, however do not stretch the point!
While you obviously enjoy a debate, you will need to stick to the issues!
Only lamebrains (morons) think that they can defend their words by changing the subject!

I think it would be a very good start, Bailey (and BC Mary's suggestion certainly runs parallel with yours)...and I agree, perhaps they fear most being revealed for what they really are....ruthless criminals, sociopathic both in their nature and in their self-denial... guilty of the worst kind of crimes against mankind...as are those who collude alongside them in their war crimes. Anything that serves to diminish their carefully crafted image of power based (as I've often said here, not on strength but on weakness of character), I'm all for. Anything that serves to enhance the power inherent in the humanity of people, that refuses to let these jerks define morality for us, I applaud as well.

It's interesting because I read an item lately (may have been on the Tyee sidebar) that Stephen Colbert, Jon Stewart and their power to diminish and bring these fools down to size by incisive satire and humour...to jolt a slumbering public by laughter and ridicule... is a very effective weapon in itself and should not be overlooked. Certainly they are replacing an almost totally co-opted media. So I guess a few more courageous, outspoken Swiftian types would help as well, especially in this country in order to help topple this sleazy crew. Using Coyote's apt metaphor, they thrive on the view (often espoused here on this site by certain posters) that we are mere "small potatoes," "spare change"... so I think we have to show them we are not afraid to take them on.

I remain optimistic too, Bailey... though I don't often feel that way...well, you know what I mean. :-)

Also, such a moving piece from Ed Deak above and though I agree that they are merely the same lowdown, degenerate bank robbers that have shot up and ravaged this world throughout history, along with that goes the realization that at this point in time, the bank robbers now have the kind of technology at their disposal to control all life... the degree of infiltration, the globalized subterfuge allows few outposts from which to escape them... and then there is the weapons of mass destruction at their disposal...and their whim. These robbers could end the cyclical nature of history for good this time.

Right to Bear, you are right of course, there is much blood that is being shed by these guys...but that's their trick... to make it appear bloodless, normal and everyday. To normalize their evil.

Never saw a better description of Organized Crime taking hold of every corner of society ... especially if the ruling group holds the doors open for them.

Interlocking forces, this new coalition of the willing ... fighting us in a whole new kind of war. It's a cash war, more than a class war ... the working man cleverly besotted these days with the dream of carrying briefcases full of cash, too.

Mary; it is odd, isn't it? Christians promote prohibition; prohibition converts small time crooks into the second richest element of western society.

Prohibition ends, but only for booze. Unaccountably, drugs remain illegal.

Then comes the war, and Italian mafiosi get assimilated into the military intelligence community to help fight Fascism. The moral influence they exert on their handlers converts the military to the philosophy of Machiavelli. No moral considerations need apply.

Then the red menace is promoted as the great enemy, although the only real threat socialism poses is not to democracy, but to the kind of capitalism practiced by the Mafia. The military intelligence community swells and grows fat on that fear.

The people of Cuba reject the chance to become the Mafia's vice capital of the western world, and the Mafia freaks. They are given free reign in Las Vegas, but It's not good for drug running from South America, like Cuba would have been.

The Kennedy brothers and Dr. King die, and power moves abruptly from the Northeast to the Southwest. Thereafter America is run from Texas and California.

The original Constitution of the United States, arguably the most or second most important document underpinning the spread of democracy in the world is altered and all civil rights are attacked, while incomprehensible wars are fought to deny freedom to those who are moving toward democratic forms of government.

Christians become the lynchpin block of voters supporting the Mafia-inspired format which has replaced democracy at the center of the worldwide democratic movement. Voila! the Mafiazation of the hope of humanity.

Some irony here, I think.

lynn said:

Riiiight... :-) Thanks lynn for clearing this for me, and I agree fully with Bailey and your comments sister. That is their trick indeed...

Peace lynn,

-Bear

The most important thing to remember is that the legalization of this crime wave is being taught in our universities as "good economics" and until we're under the yoke of "rules based free trading" systems, there's no hope for any power given back into the hands of people.

The main purpose of our "free trade, market economic" theory and system is the destruction of democracy and people's decision making powers. And there's more on the way with the NAU, GATS and FTAA.

To me, free trade means that, as an independent businessman, I can sell to and buy from anybody I want to and if I invite friends for dinner, it doesn't mean that they're welcomed to stay forever.

The neocon capitalist "free trade" means that once we buy from, or sell to somebody, we're hooked to them forever and if we'd wanted to quit, we'd have to pay through the nose. Also, when we invite them for dinner, they have perpetual rights to come back every day.

I've been calling these people the "multinational mafia" in my articles for many years, because that's what free trade, urged and negotiated by neofascist governments, really means.

Ed Deak.

Kind of an interesting thing was passed onto me... The crime folks do not like partners, unless they can control them. It seems that they have found such partners in our present provincial government. Watch for the connections to become very evident in the very near future. Virk, Basi, etc. Might just go right to the top.

Well observed and noted Kam Lee. Bang on.

Consider also the absolutely mind boggling amounts of completely unaccountable cash money knocking around. Gambling money, drug money. Cash money in bags and boxes. What exactly is that money used for?

I remember reading about the killing of Saddam Hussein's sons. A carton containing 6 or $700,000,000. was reported found at the scene, and there have recently been some military charges heard dealing with some of that cash going missing in the pockets of troops who were there.

Um. Three quarters of a Billion dollars US. In a box. Leads to some obvious questions, but I never heard them answered:

Where'd it come from, exactly?
Who brought it?
Where'd it go, exactly?
Who took it?
What was it for?

Bailey said:

lynn said:

Great question Bailey and again speaking about the heart of the issue which is the motivation of their actions. What else but fear could motivate these pathetics to act out in such a way as we have witnessed? And then of course the question...fear of what.
lynn, once again what you said resonates well with me. I wonder, are we as humans so coruptable?...

Stump said:

...What does history tell us? Lots...

Perhaps "fear" of revealing their coruption to the people is their biggest fear of all. For here would exist greed, hate, and all the ugly qualities that might come with this type of coruption. What could happen next? If the people knew about their motivation, they could create an differcult enviroment for the pathetics to work, and maybe the people could even stop them...

Peace,

-Bear

clean it up? come on. i call it like i see it.

Yeah, editor, lighten up. I think it's awesome that Spanky is taking the time off from his/her junior high homework to enlighten us with those pearls of wisdom!

A couple days ago Mr. Deak pointed out that:

This reminded me of the days, not that I was alive then, when Canada to a certain extent was defined as "NOT AMERICA." In those days REAL Canadian leaders like John A. MacDonald moved heaven and earth to create links between the west and what was then the main part of Canada, Ontario and Quebec plus the East Coast. In those days only a transcontinental railroad that challenged the natural transportation corridors could reverse the tendency of trade going north/south. In my area,the Kootenays, Spokane was more important than Vancouver in the early days and until the railways came all our ore went that way.

The first claim on Kootenay Lake, which became the Bluebell Mine was staked by Robert Sproule late in the year and he then wintered over in Spokane. That claim opened up the area and led to a claim jumping, legal battle, shooting and hanging. But the fact I wanted to emphasize is that until the railways pushed into the Rockies and BC, BC was most likely going to become a state. Now we are being subverted and taken over by American interests again, but have no MacDonalds trying to act in Canada's interests. All we have between us and being ruled by the Bush Crime Family is Steven Harper, and he is one of them, or would certainly like to be.

I would also like to mention how pleased I was to read the article that Wyndel Box just outside Creston was one of the operators providing opposition to this sellout. Years ago I did a fair bit of business with them and they were a really great family owned mill that put out extremely high quality products, all finished wood, siding and paneling mostly, for both export and domestic markets.

Obviously with the ill effect of these export taxes on added value they will be vulnerable to this new regime, unlike Emerson's own Halliburton equivalent, Canfor. To the corporate elite in their shiny offices high above the rabble it is unimportant whether raw logs or finished products are sold, as long as the money keeps piling up. The only mill left standing in my valley isn't doing all that well either and who knows, maybe this betrayal will be the punch that takes them out.

Every now and again I realize I am not a nice person. I am vengeful. To all those people who voted for the Con(victs) I now say You idiots got what you had coming to you. Pity the rest of us have to suffer, too.

This isn't a "softwood deal" this is a sell out and it is also a blackmail payout.

OUT OF NAFTA!!!

Tahsis used to have three full-time sawmills. They're gone. There are two very small family owned mills, tiny, really, and this cow shite is probably going to finish off both of them.

But, as someone pointed out, we can thank all the elder gods and goddesses that at least they arent' trying to win the hearts and minds of the people here, and haven't yet begun to bring freedom and democracy to us. I guess as long as our chubby Harpoon continues to kiss ass so obediently we won't get to see the marines marching up the main street of town, shooting everything that moves.

and again OUT OF NAFTA!!

What gets overlooked in this whole softwood debacle is the Anti Circumvention Clause which gives the US veto power over any changes we try to implement in our forestry policies. Basically we've handed over administration of our forests to the US and if this isn't an act of treason I don't know what is.

bob999:
Read this :
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20061017.wxpoll18/BNStory/National/home
Escellent news from on of the neo-Nazi's favourite polling firms SC .

This should make Ron's night, eh hannibal!

Harper should be brought up on "High Treason" charges against Canada! He has committed our peacekeeping military into an illegal war, soldiers of aggression and complicity into war crimes against humanity by turning captured insurgents over to the Afghans or and the U.S. CIA. He is breaking up Canada (softwood deal, sellout) to make the 51st U.S.A. state.
But I see a light as the Bush regime is crumbling more and more everyday so will Harper's regime!
Gordon Campbell = organized crime!
Gordo should also be brought up on "High Treason" charges against the citizens of British Columbia and the citizens of Canada! As he is giving away Our Bought and Paid for Public Utilities.
Why is taking so long to bring the Legislature raids 03 to trial?
The B.C. liberals shall be thrown out of office as soon as this was made public.

correction
the B.C. liberals should have been thrown out of office as soon as the B.C. Legislature Raids was known to influence the sale of OUR B.C. Rail!
Bassi, Verk are just a couple of very small fish in a huge B.C. government organized crime corruption case.
As the old saying goes "Follow the Money"!
We Will Find That Corruption Goes to Our Highest Halls of Democracy Possibly to Our Justice System!

http://bctrialofbasi-virk.blogspot.com/

Yea, my thoughts exactley Alci .
He's gonna go nuts and try and spin this in a whole new direction .

Here is where OUR problem comes from in Canada!
http://www.yorku.ca/nathanson/CurrentEvents/2004_Q3.htm

This guy who was once OUR Finance Minister is nothing but a crook who calls his steamship company "Canada Steamship Lines" but runs under a foreign flag, hires Filipino and Korean crews, pays substandard wages and pays no taxes to a country he supposedly is a citizen of?!!?
http://paulmartintime.ca/story/000025.html
No Wonder We Were Screwed Out Of Our Softwood Deal Even Though Legally and We Were Right?

So combine this treason with yesterdays slashing of the Fisheries budget and you have our coast guard gutted...how soon will we hear about "security" and "terrists" and "war on drugs" and who knows, the invasion of the North Korean secret service and so to protect us the US Coast Guard and US Navy will "assist" in the patrolling of what used to be OUR coast...

Dont you just hate it when stupid people think they're smarter than you are and they can pull any kind of bullshite stunt and you won't notice?

Here goes the hatchery programme..here goes the monitoring programme so we won't know how many fish return to spawn... here goes the entire west coast fishing resource to make room for foreign owned fish feed lots...

it is treason. we've been conquered without a shot being fired.

Does anybody out there know what the law is regarding the length of time a registered-in-the-US boat can stay in Canada without having to be registered here?

Reason I ask...I understood, perhaps wrongly, that if a boat was registered in the US it had to spend at least half the year in the US...but there are a number of large pleasure craft registered in the US which are parked in Tahsis year-round and have been here for two or three years...they go out each summer sports fishing, and are just left here between fishing seasons... and the local RCMP officer doesn't seem the least bit inclined to do anything about it...??? WFT, eh?

Anybody know the legalities?

Dunno Anne Cameron

I once managed a marina for a few years in Sidney and we got regular visits from the Coast Guard checking boat registrations and nationality. There certainly are 'rules' - perhaps I should say 'were'. One of our clients had a boat from the US and he did 'have' to leave Canadian waters every few months and come back with another stamped entry document before starting another cycle in Canada.

I'd give the coast guard a call and ask.

Just this past week observed walking around the seawall were the three Stooges! Stephen Harper, Gordon Campbell and Emerson? (probably congratulating themselves on softwood S/deal) Is this the way these creeps are planning Canada's demise by starting with British Columbia as the proving grounds? Gordo selling off all our public utilities, taking out ALR so his real estate buddies can subdivide and make a killing $$$$.

BC Dude;

Without getting into a Harpo etc slag fest...lets look at the forest industry in a past, present and future pespective.

B.C in the past was littered with small Ma and Pa mills. Once time pased and the areas were opened up, with better transportation routes....technology also progressed and with that came consolidation. I beleive outfits like Ainsworth and Carrier were small and the owners had the vision that the future was in bigger companies.

BC mills were and still are generally acknowledged to be the most productive and highly mechanized there are.

I've had relatives work in these mills... ie Eburne, but alas they are all closing one -by -one. Seems we lose a mill along the Fraser every few years.Same in the Interior .

While one can blame the U.S . in theory the U.S. can easily say NO to ALL Canadian Lumber ...correct? However, my undersatnding is also that much US lumber ie southern pine is often poor lumber and even U.S builders prefer our home grown Canadian lumber. I think the forest industry is in trouble and has been in trouble for reasons beyond simply the U.S.

Re: Pulp and Paper mill facets of the forest industry...I met an engineer who worked for a local engineering firm who designed these mills and was currently designing them for offshore countries..ie Indonesia.

I found this interesting, but apparently, again, technology has evolved that many other sources of raw material can be used to produce paper products...and in areas where the raw material can be produced and harvested much quicker than in B.C.

Canada should simply be "pro-reactive" and play reverse hardball and work even harder to seek a vibrant international export market for its forestry products, so the US has even less ultimate control. The Japanese apparently played this game with our BC coal industry in the past , but we now have more international customers for that BC resource.

If you travel to the Cariboo, in some areas Log Homes builders continually expand and likley provide more jobs and more NEW jobs for the local economies than the mills that are still left.

Times change but with them come new opportunities.

I know the enviros will get pissed- off when I say this.... but if we pursue the active exploration and production of our oil reserves,even offshore... the price and export of these are determined by World Price, and there is not much the U.S. can do to affect THAT B.C product . Then BC citizens at all points in the socio-political spectrum can benefit.

Smart , visionary etc. politicians can apparently structure and garner the oil and gas royalties so that much of this crown assets' overall value stays within BC ie domestically.

Just some personal views based on the Bigger Picture.

The operative word here is 'smart' maestro. Don't know if you recall but a few weeks back there was a thread up here about Enbridge pipeline projects being proposed for the Peace River/Prince George/Kitimat route.
Remember? You can find it in the archives if you're interested.

On that thread a certain someone posted some pointed questions about why the current BC 'Government' has been dealing aces under the table to the industry in terms of royalties being charged even as their compatriots in crime in Alberta have actually been increasing the amount they charge the oil and gas companies to exploit the public's resources.

No one ever took up the challenge of those questions.

Why not?

I'd say it's because the so-called 'smart guys' in the current government (and you can bet Emerson and Harper - not to mention a certain fellow whose initials are JR) are playing pretty fast an loose with their corporate friends in a time honoured 'Dallas' tradition.

Remember how you used to watch that show and its machinations while you were taking the curlers out of your hair?

Anyway, the neocon tradition of keeping value in this province has been completely out the window since WACBennett passed away. His son never understood the picture - remember BCRIC, TUmbler Ridge and Qunitette coal - not to mention a whole hnadful of pulp and paper enterprises.

Even when there is a big winner in BC, it's not the folks who really 'own' these public resources who actually benefit - it's the friends of 'government' who've converted them to their own use. Emerson and Our DUI premier could share a lot of thoughts about the joys on interlocking directorships, no doubt.

It always surprised me that BRE-x was an Alberta phenomenon - It could have been so much more 'profitable' if the boys from Howe Street had run it.

Alci:

My Comments in reverse order;

Rafe wrote a past TYEE blog on stockbrokers....and I commented on " it takes TWO to Tango" . I too had tried the market WAAAAYYY back...and got a very good "low cost" lesson in it and how the game is really played.

When Bre-X was going on...the angel on my right shoulder was telling me a couple of things ie " why is this big gold strike 1000's of miles away in the jungle...(and also ,of course, HQ'd Alberta ????) " . Something strange...

ANSWER: The "olde primal greed and larceny gene" that shuts down common- sense and simple due diligence in the cold sober analysis. Farther away....easier to be scammed !!!....yet more refused to believe such potential and did the exact opposite and invested more. I seem to recall one of the many suicides that occurred after the Bre-X scam was exposed was a local lawyer..how do THEY, professionally into evidence and due -diligence , get fooled ?

ENRON was another interesting parallel..simply substitute "energy" for gold.

Re Royalties etc.

Progress entails risk...the Status-Quo keeps things admittedly pristine,...but good, bad or indifferent, Bennett Jr's foray into North East coal set the groundwork for the boom we see now.

If not mistaken, much of our coal is high grade and less polluting...which would then reduce the burning of lower quality coal....if one wishes to get into "displacement of poorer options as a positive " debates. (BTW: what ever happened to "acid rain" fears....???)

Also, WAC Bennett built a lot of hydro-electric dams under his administration, and while valleys were flooded, hydro generation is certainly more renewable and far less polluting long term than many other options.

Agreed.....common ground for both of us, you and I, aka my " leftie side" was the play hardball for top $$$ royalties for natural resources extraction negotiations. The resource should have as its #1 PRIORITY a benefit to the General BC Public FIRST, which "The Crown " actually is ie ALL of US....

That comment was forwarded years ago by a "right wing" writer re: such things as NAFTA....the so-called "sell -out" many continually claim can actually be a major benefit if the Gov'ts of the day play these types of negotiation cards properly.

This type of "benefit to all" for all equal parties in the socio-political spectrum ultimately benefits us all, I am pretty sure there is really no debate in that.

Actually maestro I think the example of Tommy Douglas and the CCR in Saskatchewa is germane in terms of actually getting value for the 'whole citizenry' of that province in return for the development of its natural resources.

Whatever good 'old' Bennett did for the average BC citizen I think 'new' Bennett and now Campbell has more than finessed from them under the table - through Howe Street - to their West Vancouver and 'foreign friends' - NE gas royalty giveaways are only the latest chapter in a long sad story.

Even Klein has done a better job - and he sets an example that's hard not to meet.

That should be CCF - must have been thinking of Credence Clearwater Revival - sorry.

Alci:

Out of objective curiosity.....Have you got any info comparing the Crown Royalties for natural resources that(i) BC charges versus (ii) what Alberta charges ...specifically resources like Oil and Gas ?

Timber via the Pine Beetle kill is more a joker in the comparative deck .( ie limited time frame to harvest a huge volume of timber hence lower roylaties).

P.S. I'll probably discuss the Tommy Douglas factor tomorrow....always an interesting comparison often used in the political spectrum leadership comparison.

In fact maestro, that was the information I hoped someone (I was expecting it to be Colin) might actually provide. I know what's happening - I'll see if I can find the general thing for you - and I'd like to know the 'details'

Watch this space.

The government put some of B.C.’s gas reserves on sale in mid-2003 and cut the prices to convince the oil companies to do a hurry up on their operations. I think the cost to taxpayers would be in the neighbourhood of $240 million of lost revenue. Although I suppose the added activity in the Peace in an election year looks good and nobody in the press seems to make much of this. But, during the same period Alberta (which has always had a sweetheart deal with the companies has changed four royalty programs because they said that the oil and gas companies were getting off too easily – somewhere in the neighbourhood of $186 million a year (of course the industry in Alberta is much bigger). Alberta is also re-evaluating its deep well and low volume output discounts, which will also increase the tax revenues to that province. Why the hell are we in BC doing the opposite?
And why, for God's sake are we ramping up to import natural gas at the same time that were giving the oil companies a sweetheart deal to hurry up and suck our own reserves dry? You don’t smell something rotten in the state of Denmark?

Those ethical questions can sometimes be asked in a whole variety of ways RTB - I'd like to know who else is going to benefit from the pipelines.

This was from G West. At the end of the thread - before it disappeared into the archives, Colin said this:

I think the place you'd want to start would be a general search for current royalty rates for NG in the two provinces - or you could send an email to Christopher Pollon who wrote the piece for Tyee.

I'd missed Colin's note when the thread packed up and I haven't been back there since.

I know G West wouldn't post the claim unless he'd researched it. Despite Cappy's claim about him that's not his style and he's no high school kid either!

cheers dude - keep asking the difficult questions and stay out of the limelight - you'll be okay!

Alci:

Actually, again in reverse order:

If I wanted to be in the limelight I would be " G West Jr." or much like a few other TYEE bloggers.

I'll give G West some kudos to some of his research and editorial comments... but in fact my first ever BLOGs on the TYEE this summer(on an issue I have researched for 3 years and had quite an epiphany) made me realize many TYEE bloggers have a subjective ideological bias based on entrenched propoganda...so I had my own enlightenment early on as a first impression of the mindset of many.

Often facts ,figures, and objective interpretation etc. etc. mean squat to some TYEE-istas....they seem to be in a denial mode(defensive mechansim) even when the reducto ad absurdum debates should have them at white- flag waving mode.

Now....back to the Royalties game...Given Gov'ts entrenched right to tax us mercilessly....I think the Oil and Gas royalties facst will have to be established, then comparisons made. Within that context one has to look at peripheral variables..ie a "well" to be drilled has many associated regulatory costs and bureaucratic hoops to jump through which may be different than in another jurisdiction.That adds cost.

As a devil's advocate comment, perhaps environmentalists have lobbied to create environmental impact studies and a number of regulations that, rightly or wrongly , create a costly front end fiscal impact that say adds $5 per barrel. The oil company will look at the numbers and tell the Gov't if you want any royalties..that $5 per barrel is a cost that has to be figured in...or we don't drill and access the resource....and hence no royalties.

Also terrain and other variables come into play hence not simply an apples and apples debate. Coastal logging vs Interior logging within the same province have very different variables...A well may be charged next to nothing for royalties because it is a pioneer in the area and has to foot the bill for all the start up costs...but once these are up and running...future wells can be charged more becuase the infrastructure is there and the overall costs lowered.That's the real world.

Regardless, once BC is seen as having the resource and a healthy investment climate and this critical mass for Oil and Gas is established,...royalties can be reviewed and adjusted. Also remember the high paying jobs, the ripple effect to realted industries and the taxes generated and created from all this activity. Many parties, acording to media reports, are making $100,000 per year..the income tax structure would confiscate a huge chunk of that...which should "warm" the coldest socialist heart...(even if it is off ANOTHER "union brother" eh?)

Again, the devil is in the details...and very often it ain't as bad a devil as many TYEE Lefties Ltd. make it out to be...

socialists don't have cold hearts meastro - that's a strictly capitalist characteristic.

I think G West is probably closer to the truth than you are ---> the dollars are going out daily to the folks who are being rewarded. And it's not the average taxpayer in this province. Oil and Gas isn't exactly a buyer's market - you have to keep that in mind. We're talking about a depleting resource here. AND a nominally PUBLIC one. This government seems to have forgotten that.

And I notice you completely ignored the 'import terminal' aspect of this question...even Colin didn't do that.

By the way, what is the point in attracting foreign investment if the equity vehicle is an income trust? You know, or ought to know what the tax treatment is for that kind of offshore investor.

You really don't believe the fix is in?

Amazing!

Alci:

FTR: No one is avoiding anything.

Sorry...but what IMPORT terminal???....Are we talking The Rupert Terminal? ....or....

We are apparently IMporting ELECTRICITY, but strategically, and yet how will we meet future demand..dams?..burn coal?..nuclear ??..NDP's overpriced gas pipeline to Vancouver Island in the false hope of natural gas fired electrical plant that will not happen ?

Actually, Oil and Gas is a buyers market, albiet a fixed quantity resource....it is still based on consumer demand, certainly noticed a huge drop of approx. 20% once summer ended.

Don't overly extrapolate a somewhat tongue-in-cheek comment ala "cold - hearted" socialist...they ain't all RED,..most are simply a medium shade of pink as they smoke pot at U.S. based Starbucks "Canadian franchises " and disucss liberating Juan Valdez and stopping future Exxon Valdez...right....?

Sorry, but while we can (and should) respect each others debates to some degree, some of these blogs end up in "show me the money" and "where's the beef?" mode.

" Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." (Aaron Levenstein)

While all sides of the political spectrum use them....I think the left side of the spectrum uses far more " falsies " to a very near -sighted comrade-erie crowd. One should take the eagles -eye BIG view vs. the ostrich-ish one.

Income trusts are another issue....unfortunately being dragged in when the discussion is comparing royalties on the " Devil is in the details " premise and seeking common ground.

In my view...the partisan lines once separating most if not all Political parties are being seriously blurred and that Gov'ts are forming some ever-increasing .... tax $ grab.... revenue sourcing /generating "bloodsucking " UNI-entity.

A neo "Big Brother" is being created which in fact is more in sync with the socialist model yet more subtley camouflaged.

If there are basic facts, I repeat FACTS, that indicate BC is being ripped off and a few insiders gain, sure, THEN the general public can be aroused in a joint a-political non- partisan effort , no different than when BC Gov't (Even the holier than thou NDP)tried to raise MLA salaries allegedly behind our backs , and the shite hit the fan big time.

Otherwise, all things being equal...Agreed ???

You have to go back to Pollon's article to understand what's going on.

The Enbridge proposal is to create a double pipeline from Kitimat - one pipeline to serve as the big end of the funnel for 'imported' gas and another for imported condensate. It's a complicated plan and Enbridge isn't the only player. It involves a whole lot of negotiations with native bands etc and you have to do quite a bit of reading to get behind all the pretty pictures Enbridge puts of the front of their bumpf.

If you pull back the curtains and work at it, you'll get the whole picture.

Here's the prime Enbridge link - it's mostly useless but you can use it as a starting point for your research:

http://www.enbridge.com/gateway/pdf/gateway-brochure-03.pdf

And here's the old Tyee link from the archives - http://thetyee.ca/News/2006/08/23/Enbridge/

Go to it!

This isn't just an insider rip off. By a long shot.

Alci:

Thanks for the links:

A read or two seems to indicate it is in the very preliminary stages...and with much sympathy to some of the players.

Given First Nations and negotiations...and my own review of the overall
"Need to consult" process , I see this as one uphill battle before they even dig the first hole.

I also read many of the comments by the TYEE blogger posse'.

Regardless...I really didn't see much talk of royalties....these mega projects have their own inherent financial risks, but the simple spin-offs for job creation via construction from this huge project will be its own major benefit...and AFTER that it will provide the main infrastructure that will allow other Oil and Gas reserves to be tapped.

I see the main gist of this project is the movement of Alberta " Texas Tea ", but BC will eventually ride the coat-tails with its own reserves...and then the added royalties from current production and FUTURE negotiated royalties.

As I stated earlier , huge hurdles to overcome....and good luck to all the players.

Don't really percieve Enbridge as lying...really no different than any other brochure to lay out the main premise of what they are trying to do....even Political parties do much the same...

You have to dig deeper. It's only when you look behind the doors and windows that you discover the true impact of this plan, which will have tankers full of LNG coming into terminals (they'll start out bringing in condensate – in fact they’re already at it) to pump back through the pipelines to serve the NA market.

We know that Natural Gas reserves in Alberta and BC are finite. I think there's a deal in the works to use BC as the entry point for Gas from Asia or Siberia. The information is all public and available but you can't stop with what the gas companies are saying, you have to look at Klein's speeches in Washington last summer and the recent meetings in Alberta. It's all there.

The ones who need the luck are ordinary Canadians, alas - the players you give a thumbs up to will make their own luck at our expense.

The current giveaway of NG leases in BC is just the start of this whole giveaway.

We'll have to check back a few years from now and I'll wager a pitcher of beer on my conclusion.

Of course Enbridge doesn't 'lie' they just don't tell the truth and most of the time they only consider the interests of their shareholders. If they've converted to an income trust they don't even have to worry about tax. If ordinary taxpayers wanted to excoriate the federal Liberals for something it wouldn't be Adscam - it'd be the purblind robbery of public resources by permitting the creation of income trusts and extending the tax holiday to other ownership vehicles a year ago last spring.

That was a real crime against the people.

Ironic, isn't it? You don't find much negative information in the papers about that.

Re the pipeline etc. issue:

Its probably best to let the chips fall and ships sail where they may first.

In my own reading of the lines and also my between the lines, I assess the issue as far more a benefit than a cost/liability, given BC will have a strategic importance in the bigger scheme of things given the pipeline and the port facilities.

If the pipeline also provides a two- way transportation capacity, and if Soviet and Asian fuels etc. are shipped in our direction, to benefit us and our needs ...what can be the real downside ?

A more secure and predictable supply and supply route may create less motivation and hence LESS and less pressure for militaristic adventures into OTHER Oil rich areas of the world in order to maintain a secure supply ,less collateral internal and international consequences , and may also let many of the TYEE Lefties sleep better at night.

Can't really see this as some evil corporate plot, not any morseo than other things that have gone on in the past. Nationalization of the resource , especially in Canada, has and will create far more problems than it solves or attempts to solve... the only other option is generally what we see with the NON Public sector becoming involved and investing and taking on the risk.

Again, Royalties is a dynamic fiscal issue...to continually keep abreast of..and with apples and apples comparisons...with all the facts and variables at hand.

Oh c'mon maestro, give me a break. If we weren't flogging our resources to the Americans at the fastest rate possible we'd:
a. not be contributing (courtesy of our friends in Alberta) an additional 30 - 40% of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere, and
b. would have more than adequate reserves of oil and gas for our own use for decades to come, and
c. would have met our Kyoto targets.

We would not have to risk the pollution of our northern coast with tanker traffic and would not be considering opening up the west coast off shore to drilling.

We would still have a healthy manufacturing industry in the east and wouldn't be so beholden to the Americans on things like softwood etc.

Free trade cuts both ways - there have been benefits but there have been costs too and energy self-sufficiency (which we're never going to have now if my analysis of this pipeline/port thing is correct) is probably a forgotten dream now.

The stuff doesn't dry up and blow away if you leave it in the ground.

It didn't have to be nationalized - it just had to be developed rationally. In my view we've really blown it - and polluted our own air and rivers by proxy for American consumers into the bargain. Use your imagination.

Some deal!

Alci:

You will note I purposely avoided the in depth discussion on the points you seem to cling to. That's due to not having all the facts and details.

Maybe the issue can best be analogized as building another bridge across a river. One side of the debate can claim environmental impact, cost, who benefits?, is this a subsidy ?etc. The other side says that traffic flows more freely, less congestion, less pollution, more benefit than cost . Lack of bridges or opposition to bridges should not be used as a subtle "lock and key" nor a " ball and chain".

My nationalization comment was meant in the context of who ELSE would build it ? Gov't ? = unlikley !

Is it(NON Public Sector) a good/better/best or only? option considering all others? Probably.

NOW we delve into the details, which is the stage it(pipeline) apparently is at.

Again,.... a rip -off is perhaps defined as a literal steal by one side or give -away by the other. We have little or no numbers to work with and make the proper objective comparisons. I don't see this as much different than real estate ..why is the same sized lot in Vancouver much higher priced than same sized one in Burnaby, New West, etc. Construction costs play a factor too.

Kyoto, global warming etc.?
That's being dicussed in a current TYEE article. Much like the "rip-off" comment above, I am not very convinced of Kyoto , mainly due to Canada, "the beacon of international integrity" , may be the only one to honour it, and global warming issue in my view is too complex an issue in the context of the overall history of the earth and its climate patterns since the dawn of time.

I will agree with you in the need for secured domestic supply...we'll have to see if and how that pans out. The fact that Billions of dollars will be spent on a pipeline should give some indication that this "finite" resource is still of sufficient volume/quantity to warrant such an investment.

Other than that, the rest is "sky is falling" theories and conjecture.

We'll see. If we're both still above the ground in ten years or so and Tyee hasn't become the fluff engine it's seriously leaning toward being today we can compare notes then.

This actually isn't my issue - as I noted at the start of this exchange. I think the current government in Victoria, in cahoots with the current 'government' in Ottawa - are possibly the biggest pair of corporate-friendly enablers in this country since John A MacDonald's time. But it's going to have to be somebody else who does the research. It's too bad Tyee isn't actually encouraging some of its 'investigative reporters' to dig a little deeper, isn't it?

Too bad no one, anywhere, seems to be.

Alci:

Don't get me wrong...and I am not into a sell -out mode now nor a sell- out mode in the future.

Also: Personally, I don't see a TYEE fluff piece conspiracy,....someone once blogged a while back that stories have a way of repeating themselves... and is there really anything new to add ?

Also...We each have our pet concerns/peeves etc. which we will probably turn our focusses into a quasi- "thesis worthy" research endeavour.

I think the issue we and most,if not all TYEE bloggers have much common ground is both a concern and an acknowledgemt of much general public apathy and ignorance. In fact, at times a quasi- balance is achieved via equal apathy and ignorance at the elected officials and bureaucratic level. Many of us more involved and pro-active types sense the slippery slopes that can and do evolve via this ignorance and apathy by BOTH the general public and the Gov't. That's not being condescending, its more the sad pathetic truth.

In fact, at times the information overload can be as bad as not enough info...ie "indigestion" vs the "munchies".

On that issue..ie the pipeline...and accessing the royaltie$$$ from the reserves , all citizen stakeholders could and should play "Donald Trump meets or combos with Vince Ready" and make sure the public gets the best return FOR the public FROM the public asset. The benefits to all parties are too numerous to mention.

If that's the non- partisan a-political collective no- brainer goal...the rest is simply determining that magic number ie royalties etc. Given the uncertain supplies and the uncertainty of supply flow elsewhere, I think the future looks good...ie jobs,spin-offs , demand, royalties,..and that magic $$$ number will be an ever - bigger $$$ number as time goes on.

Also note, the Pine Beetle Kill will have a major effect on northern communities...apparently projections say in 10-15 years via a severely reduced AAC,... and a newer emerging industry may need to take its place, at least in the short term.

Cabal's and conspiracies...?? one man's corporate cabal etc is anothers Trudeau-isian Petro Can Gov't rip -off. An objective quasi- jury, as usual, is needed to render the proper judgment.

Finally....The First Nations( FN) issue can and probably will be the deciding factor more and more re: pipelines . However, unless I am mistaken...once that is negotiated ..if EVER,...the FN's $$$ cut will likley leave less royalties for the rest of us..do you agree ? ie One of the many factors to consider no different than building a house using and paying many parties ...each party in the chain gets a piece of the action...thus how the pie is sliced determines what each party /stakeholder will get. If the FN's want too much, or get a Lions share...to the point there is little left for the rest of us...(given a minimum benchmark of break even for the pipeline etc.)do the rest of us agree ?.....or protest for a variety of obvious reasons ??.

Again..the ever -Bigger Technicolor Picture.

maestro IF YOU HAD HALF A BRAIN IT WOULD BE LONELY! LOL
Are you a Real Canadian or Big Biz Harper = Bush sympathizer?
I'm not a great Spin Dr like you who writes lots but says Nota! Lefty this Lefty that. Well I guess I'm a lefty then.
I'm for social justice, the fact that all men/women are created equal, a society which doesn't look after its social network just like it's infrastructure will eventually collapse!

The Softwood scandal perpetrated by Stephen Harper, Gordon Campbell and Emerson who were seen strolling together along the seawall in Stanley Park early last week? WHY? (humm I smell greedy rats) No Media Mention of This?
CanWest Where Are You? Your Silence Will Be Your Downfall in Canada and British Columbians especially for all your silence while Gordon Campbell decimates OUR BEAUTIFUL BRITISH COLUMBIA
I can almost guarantee that after the "Ship Hits the Sand!

So The Yanks Can Now Legally come and literally clear cut our Public parks and forests and Canadians will be left with the same thing the Americans have done to the Third World countries for the last couple of centuries! Total devastation of these poor countries we stood and watched this happened, and now it's our turn, shame on us!
They are still doing this today with big forest corporations, big oil corporations, forcing what we call democracy on them, what a laugh!

I served 3yrs in the PPCLI as a much respected Peacekeeper in Germany.
Back then till 2001 I was proud to wear the Uniform with the Red Patch!
Why should WE the taxpayer's (CCP go to fund this illegal war?
http://coat.openconcept.ca/cpp/)
All you have to do is see what's going on around US right now!
If WE are fighting for democracy in a foreign land WE should be bringing our troops home to put our so-called elected leaders "FOR THE PEOPLE BY THE PEOPLE" before a Publicly Elected "Court of the Canadian People" For acts of treason against the people of Canada!
WE have to get rid of the CorporateBums takeover of Canada and the organized crime that has infringed on OUR sacred Halls of Justice and Parliament!
Are there any lawyers/law firms who would take the side of the Canadian People to a class-action suit against corruption in OUR Democratic halls Regional, Provincial and Federal?
http://bctrialofbasi-virk.blogspot.com/
http://www.iwtnews.com/home

" BC Dude"

err " BC Dud"

err too much " BC Bud "

I think your Ritalin prescription is conflicting with whatever ELSE you are partaking in.

If you actually have something to say in an UNmedicated haze...please...we are all cyber ears and cyber eyes.

Walk the walk...versus the ever boring Leftie Ltd "talk the talk" ...you and the rest of Leftie Ltd. go ahead and file a Treason Charge...and all the other strong legal cases you and Leftie Ltd. feel are a lead pipe cinch.

Wassa matta...chicken shite ???

Some of us vividly recall from the late 1970's the democratic choice not to drink the party line Kool -Aid...you Leftie Ltd.s' need a cerebral exorcism, but then again the rest of us wouldn't benefit from the sheer entertainment you Boris Badenovs continually provide.

Maybe you are taking low doses of Kool Aid, but the effects are becoming more and more obvious.

Many of you fit the profile of a re-incarnated Lee Harvey Oswald...I try to stay objective and have one foot in each side of the political fence, but the fact that I don't choose to drink the Kool Aid obviously gets some of you Jim Jones heads doing 360 degree turns and vomit more Leftie Ltd. rhetoric I have heard ad nauseum.

Alci and others at least can get into a reasonable discussion....even if we agree to disagree.

You, maestro are very very immature, insignificant little person who stoops to name-calling as a last resort to answering any of those questions I've presented!
You called me a chicken sh-t, have you ever served your country?
Well I have 2 PPCLI 3 years!
So maestro, you don't have any problem with yours and mine and the people of Canada's "Canada Pension Plan" used for a very aggressive and ill-equipped military fighting the illegal war that the Americans abandoned?
Also maestro you have no comment on this very important huge step in bringing back democracy to British Columbia! http://bctrialofbasi-virk.blogspot.com/
WHY?
Enough time wasted on this immature little person.

to the rest of us lefties here's some interesting facts about CanWest that has not be made public, WHY?
http://www.yourmedia.ca/news/2006/060920_cwg_nz_legal.html

http://www.yourmedia.ca/

BC Dude
I especially like the New Zealand story. Have you seen even a hint of that in the Canadian media?

Sounds a lot like a neat tax dodge we have here in Canada called ' small business investment loss treatment'.

Check it out sometime. Investors pay into a vehicle that's set up to accumulate small business losses and then the fund divvies out those losses to the 'investors' to offset against earnings from all other sources – and not just capital gains – which is the case with most offset provisions.

There is virtually no chance of these combinations of 'losers' ever making a profit but the losses can be carried back 3 years and forward at least 7. Oh to be a 'capitalist' when you also write the rules.

Combined with the treatment of foreign investors who buy income trust units instead of equity shares whenever they are available, we may soon reach the point where corporations and the wealthy pay no taxes in this country at all.

CanWest update

http://www.yourmedia.ca/news/2006/060914_cwg_vtc_adverts.html

Features writer Janis Ringuette and University of Victoria writing professor and regular columnist Lynne van Luven quit the Times-Colonist in protest. Then the Canadian Association of Journalists started probing, and issued a formal complaint.

When B.C. newsweekly Monday Magazine and online magazine The Tyee also started asking questions, CanWest Global vice-president David Asper stepped in and reassured everyone the company “vigilantly” protected “unencumbered” journalism in their media empire. CanWest Global president Dennis Skulsky ordered Smith's re-hiring and issued a statement saying, “We value the editorial independence of each our news outlets and under no circumstances should advertising influence the content of newspapers.”

This is what the People Right now should be doing making sure CanWest goes back to being a Democratic Media or shut them down by boycoting them.
The Advertisers are Corporations and when they are involved The People are "Dumbed Down" as they call it.
"What We Don't Know Will Hurt Us"

G West They the Corporations don't pay taxes now We the taxpayer gives them tax breaks worth Billions!
I've heard as much as $90,000,000,000.00 that's evil....

Oh I know, but most people don't realize the small business investment vehicle exists either. Individuals with chunks of money they don't want to pay taxes on can now invest in these sham outfits and get back the taxes they've paid on ordinary income.

How many average workers have the bucks for that kind of a dodge - and there is no real prospect of these small businesses ever turning a profit anyway.

Corporate tax rates are a joke, I agree, but income trusts are making it even worse.

Telus Trust holders from outside Canada now aren't taxed here at all on the income and the whole income trust scheme avoids tax at the corporation level too.

Theft - plain and simple.

I'm glad CanWest got caught in New Zealand.

btw I've been looking at yourmedia regularly since you ( I think it was you) first brought it to our attention here.
Thanks

BC Dude

As this blog is soon en route for the archives......

Good on ya for serving your country.

However, careful about the "diplomacy " or lack thereof YOU and others use in the start of a discussion...like most of condescending "holier than thou" Leftie Ltd. We often call that pot calls the kettle black. Quit banging the pots...noise is annoying.

Basi/Virk trial? Well a recent media item stated the Crowns' case is very reliant on a key witness and other factors. Regardless, that's why we have the Courts, and morseo so the cases are not adjudicated by ideological zealots. When Leftie Ltd. is on trial ,its more like "What, me Worry ??? "

The TYEE is a valuable arena to bring more options ala free speech to and from the general public...and one's views not be limited by a " hard copy " editor.

However.... like someone blogged in another article ie Glavin item...the Leftie Ltd.-istas seem to cyber squat with sharp elbows in blog link link blog...link link link programming vs think think think. Leftie Ltd. simply preaches to its own converted in mutual delusion/symbiotic stroking fashion. Ya'll sound like a talent competition trying to " out -Leftie" each other.

The TYEE type of on-line debate suits Leftie Ltd. style...pseudo -intellectual pigeonholing "drink the kool-aid" or ELSE Leftie Ltd. "we know better" sentence is rendered. Most Leftie Ltds. shrivel like a vampire in the light of a live debate, talking from a lot of experience.

The Leftie Ltd. tail and run is very amusing . Leftie Ltd. ,and ultimately masks, a rather amusing- meets- dysfunctional detest for the system(albeit imperfect) they themselves live in...and act like Professors lecturing objectively(barf) and think the rest of us are too stoooooooopid to see through this bullshite.

Remember Dude...once the stereotype becomes undeniable, its called a pretty dam good profile. Maybe that explains why the great UNwashed tolerate your right to free speech but more often make sure you Leftie Ltd. never come near the reins of power and stay at a healthy distance at the periphery.

Again "File charges " Dude...again wassamatta.... chicken shite??? Don't you and Leftie Ltd. wanna save the country ? If not why not? You are the ones making the accusations...CORRECT ?

Some of us will serve our country in more contructive ways using more constructive means...choosing our battles and seeing ALL sides of the issues before we actually do take sides...and maybe also keeping a peripheral eye on you Leftie Ltd. types.

Otherwise, bring it on....I've sparred and debated with FAR better...you and many in Leftie Ltd don't even amount to an hors doeuvres crumb.

You trying to get the last word in here or something maestro?

Trying to beat me to it G West ?

NO maesto - it's yours!

maestro so you think this blog will soon go into the archives, WHY?
What do you gain by all the potty mouthing, just because you are losing the battle of words, suck it up like a man! LOL
GW I'm glad to see there are still people in here with their eyes open!
I personally think the first thing we have to do is make CanWest accountable 2 the people of B.C. and also to the Canadian people!
Is to start boycotting their advertisers if we all started this the Corporations behind these advertisers would start feeling to pinch and corporations do not like to lose money and especially their shareholders.
"Free Speech Is the Basic Foundation of True Democracy"
maestro?

I thought not maestro.