Mediacheck

A Tyee Series

Aspers and Harper, A Toried Love

Ties that bind CanWest to the Conservatives.

By Marc Edge, 13 Nov 2007, TheTyee.ca

Stephen Harper and Asper (spliced together)

Stephen Harper and Leonard Asper: Mutually assured ambition

[Editor's note: This is the first of four excerpts from Marc Edge's new book Asper Nation: Canada's Most Dangerous Media Company.]

Its final report on the news media in Canada was not released by the Standing Senate Committee on Transportation and Communications until June of 2006. It had been more than three years since the study was conceived. It had been disbanded twice while Parliament was dissolved for federal elections. In the end, the Senate report was released by a new committee chair, Lise Bacon, as the term of Senator Joan Fraser had expired. The political landscape onto which the report landed had also been radically altered by the federal election earlier that year.

After more than a dozen years of Liberal rule, a minority Conservative government came to power that February under Stephen Harper. A deregulationist regime in Ottawa meant that any prescription the senators might have had for legislative reform of Canada's news media ownership had little hope of being adopted. Perhaps that was why they proposed such modest measures to curb the growing power of Canada's media giants.

The likelihood of any limits on media ownership being enacted by the new ruling party in Ottawa also grew scant for another reason. The Asper heirs had moved almost as close to the Conservatives as their father had been to the Liberal party.

One senior editor at Global Television even ran in the 2006 election as a Conservative candidate in Toronto with Asper blessing. A new chairman of CanWest's corporate board came directly from Tory ranks and aligned the Aspers uncomfortably close for some with the new party in power. A CanWest executive was discovered helping to fundraise for the Conservative cabinet minister in charge of broadcasting. Parliament Hill reporters for CanWest News proved more co-operative than most with the media management tactics of the new Tory government.

Then, in early 2007, CanWest expanded its communication empire by another quantum leap amid protests over increased ownership concentration. The acquisition also flouted Canada's foreign ownership limits, which the Aspers had long opposed.

A revelation made during the 2004 election campaign should have set off alarm bells that a political sea change was under way with a new generation of Aspers. CanWest's corporate helicopter had been used to ferry a harried Harper above Toronto traffic on his way to an appearance in Hamilton. As Toronto Star media columnist Antonia Zerbisias noted, the favor was business as usual for broadcasters. Both CanWest and CTV contributed generously to the campaign funds of both the Liberal and Conservative parties, she pointed out. "Perhaps it's not so surprising that some very controversial media issues are not being discussed during this campaign."

Power of the press

The political problem of media regulation had been identified more than three decades earlier by Keith Davey, the first senator in Canada to take on Big Media. He became concerned in the late 1960s about increased control of Canada's press by large newspaper chains like Southam, Thomson, and FP Publications. Davey first considered Parliament the appropriate body to conduct an inquiry into press concentration. He soon realized, however, that appointed senators would be better insulated from editorial pressure brought by publishers. His concerns were confirmed, Davey noted, by the easy passage through an elected U.S. Senate of the Newspaper Preservation Act in 1969. The NPA exempted from U.S. anti-trust laws dozens of newspapers that had been illegally sharing production facilities, fixing advertising rates, and pooling profits in arrangements similar to Vancouver's Pacific Press.

President Richard Nixon's flip-flop on the issue, according to Davey, justified his concern. "Politicians looking to re-election," he noted, "must depend substantially upon the mass media in the very real world of practical politics." Nixon was re-elected with the highest modern level of newspaper endorsements despite his government's unprecedented press censorship in the Pentagon Papers case and a simmering Watergate scandal.

Davey struck a Special Senate Subcommittee on Mass Media that forced media companies to open their books. It described what it found as "astonishing." Media owners were making enormous profits, Davey's committee found. More delicious was the secrecy surrounding their financial success. "An industry that is supposed to abhor secrets is sitting on one of the best-kept, least-discussed secrets, one of the hottest scoops, in the entire field of Canadian business -- their own balance sheets." From 1958 to 1967, before-tax profits at Canadian newspapers ranged from 23.4 percent to 30.5 percent. After taxes, they were 12.3-17.5 percent, compared to 9.2-10.4 percent in other manufacturing and retailing industries. "Owning a newspaper, in other words, can be almost twice as profitable as owning a paper-box factory or a department store," observed the senators.

Davey's committee proposed several steps to remedy the problem of media concentration. A Press Ownership Review Board would have had the power to block newspaper sales or mergers that increased concentration. A system of subsidies would have encouraged the founding of alternative publications. Despite generating considerable debate for a number of years, however, neither proposal was enacted. It was disappointing for senators who had hoped to stem the tide of ownership concentration before economic forces overtook the media irreversibly. "We had to conclude that we have in this country not the press we need, but rather the press we deserve," Davey recalled in his memoirs. "The sad fact is that the media must self-regulate because most Canadians are not prepared to demand the press they need."

Conservative coziness

David Asper endorsed the candidacy of Global executive Peter Kent, who had taken a leave of absence to run in the 2006 federal election for the Conservatives in Toronto. Kent made headlines during the campaign with allegations of media bias in favor of the Liberals, for which he urged journalism schools to monitor election news. When he failed to win a seat, Kent returned to CanWest Global as its deputy editor-in-chief in charge of current affairs coverage and documentary development.

Izzy Asper's sons were never as slavish in their support of the Liberals as their father had been. David Asper had even pointed out the "political diversity" within the family in 2001. "I happen to carry provincial and federal political party memberships which are not of the Liberal party," he told an audience in Calgary. "Not one of my critics cared, for example, to take note of my publicized endorsement of former Manitoba Conservative premier Gary Filmon." Asper noted that CanWest had spread its political contributions well beyond just the Liberals, following ideological rather than party lines. "We have provided significant financial support for both the Alliance federally and the Progressive Conservatives provincially," he said. "We are driven by policy ideas and innovation and not by some blind political loyalty."

As the 2006 federal election approached, David Asper dispelled any doubt that might have remained about his political leanings. At a campaign rally, he joined Harper onstage to endorse his candidacy. The open declaration of personal support for a politician was something new for media owners in Canada. "You have to wonder about the wisdom of Mr. Asper's endorsement of Mr. Harper," noted Christopher Dornan, director of Carleton University's journalism school. "Not from Mr. Asper's point of view, but from Mr. Harper's. Why invite accusations of having the press in your pocket?"

After the Conservatives came to power, the links between CanWest and the new ruling party became uncomfortably close for some. It was revealed that CanWest's vice-president of regulatory affairs, Charlotte Bell, helped organize a $250-a-plate dinner for Heritage Minister Bev Oda. A former CanWest executive, Oda's portfolio included responsibility for media. That August, CanWest named Derek Burney as its new chairman, finally filling the vacancy created by Izzy Asper's 2003 death. Burney had been Conservative prime minister Brian Mulroney's chief of staff in the 1980s and later his ambassador to the U.S. It was his most recent position, however, that some felt made Burney a bit too close to the new government.

As head of Harper's transition team to power, they pointed out, Burney provided the perfect conduit for CanWest to the new ruling party in Ottawa. "There is no question that his extensive experience and connections within government are exceptionally valuable," noted Maclean's. The political coziness was questionable, however, due to CanWest's reliance on federal regulators for the profitability of its billion-dollar business. "It ties the media companies into an existing social network of decision-makers that affect policy and government regulation in Canada," noted Carleton communication professor Dwayne Winseck. For some critics of CanWest, Burney's appointment was going too far. "I don't think that people prominently associated with one political party are appropriate people to chair the board of a media company," said Russell Mills. "It doesn't create the right climate for journalists to work in."

Senate report on news media

The 2006 Senate report on news media stopped short of urging the breakup of Big Media by recommending that a ban on cross ownership be re-instituted. Instead it suggested the Competition Bureau review future news media mergers to prevent dominance by one owner in any market. It recommended automatic review above a certain concentration threshold, mentioning an audience share of 35 percent. It also proposed allowing the federal Cabinet to review any news media merger that government ministers considered questionable. Press freedom provisions in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, the senators reasoned, should only go so far. "The media's right to be free from government interference does not extend . . . to a conclusion that proprietors should be allowed to own an excessive proportion of media holdings in a particular market, let alone the national market."

The inquiry had declined to do what the Davey committee had done when it made media companies open their books and disclose their profits. Instead, the 21st century senators relied on published numbers, from annual reports of newspaper companies and from CRTC data for broadcasters. They showed, however, that media companies were still extremely lucrative. Owning newspapers was even more profitable than in Davey's day. In 2005, earnings for the major newspaper chains varied from 17-24 percent, with CanWest coming in at 20.7 percent. Radio profits ranged from 18.5-22.7 percent between 1999 and 2003, while in television they were 13.6-18.6 percent.

Before 2006 ended, Oda issued a response to the Senate report that confirmed there would be no government action even on its mild recommendations. "The government recognizes," it read, "that convergence has become an essential business strategy for media organizations to stay competitive in a highly competitive and diverse marketplace." The response quickly rendered moot both the Senate report and the Lincoln committee recommendations on reforming broadcasting.

Senator Jim Munson expressed frustration with the government's response. "I am very disappointed that they would have this attitude," he said. "We feel [the report] gives some creative ideas on how we should monitor massive media concentration."

A union official was more pointed on why the Senate report got such a cold shoulder. "Big media is in the driver's seat of big politics," said Peter Murdoch of the Communications, Energy and Paperworkers Union of Canada. "It's clear who the government is listening to. It's not just outrageous or appalling. It's scary." The only newspaper in Canada to even report Oda's response at the time was the Toronto Star. Its media critic Antonia Zerbisias noted the Heritage Minister's relationship with the broadcasting industry.

Last month, at a broadcasters' convention in Ottawa, Oda told her audience "I'm with you. I'm one of you." She also said she is "committed to more regulatory flexibility." Well, let me tell you, after covering this business for the better part of 17 years, I have learned that, when broadcasters talk about "flexibility," it's always Canadian artists, citizens, consumers who bend over.

Mutual back scratching

Another area of Asper family interest Oda oversaw was the government's relationship with the long-planned Canadian Museum for Human Rights in Winnipeg. By 2006, the federal funding commitment to completing the project had grown to $100 million. The Winnipeg and Manitoba governments had pledged $20 million each to supplement $61 million raised from the private sector, including the Asper family. Gail Asper, who spearheaded the fundraising drive, asked Ottawa to also provide $12 million a year in operating expenses. The Liberals had balked at that while they were in power. After the Conservatives were elected, however, the Aspers found that their entreaties to the federal government received a more favorable hearing. By designating the museum a national institution, Oda was prepared to provide the $12 million annually. The sticking point was who would control the museum's operations, noted the Globe and Mail.

The tricky part of the public-private relationship is the question of who dominates the museum board (and therefore who determines such ticklish issues as how the "national" human-rights museum might treat, say, Palestinian rights). Clearly, the board would include Asper family representatives -- but would the government let them control it?

The mutual back-scratching also saw CanWest come to the prime minister's aid in a long-running dispute with the parliamentary press gallery. His election platform had included promises of more government openness, but instead Harper tightly restricted press access to himself and other ministers.

The strategy reminded some of the perception management tactics employed in the U.S. by the White House. In Ottawa, the prime minister's office announced Harper would only take questions at Parliament Hill press conferences from reporters who put their names on a list. He would call on selected reporters to ask questions instead of answering them as before from those lined up at microphones. Reporters boycotted the new rules because they claimed they would allow Harper to "cherry pick" favorite journalists and freeze out those who might ask tough questions.

The dispute went unresolved for months until the CanWest News Service broke ranks and obtained exclusive interviews with the prime minister for two of its reporters after agreeing to go on his list.

A global alliance

The new Conservative government's laissez-faire approach to the continuing consolidation of Canadian media opened the door for an expansion of CanWest. It was an opportunity the Aspers seized on in early 2007 despite being deeply in debt. The strategy they employed, however, flouted Canada's restrictions on foreign ownership of media. It also gambled control of the firm their father had built.

"They're betting the personal farm," offered one unnamed analyst when details of the Aspers' bold venture emerged. "It's a risky move."

It was an ingeniously-financed expansion. Alliance Atlantis was the largest production company in Canada, and one of the most successful in the world. It was a classic example of "vertical integration," not only producing content but also owning multiple avenues of distribution. It held CRTC licenses for thirteen specialty television channels, including Showcase and History Television, and it owned the movie distribution company Odeon Films. Alliance Atlantis also enjoyed a certified hit in the television show CSI: Crime Scene Investigation and its spin-off series, a billion-dollar franchise in partnership with CBS.

The value of Alliance Atlantis to CanWest Global was obvious, but its debt load left the firm unable to make a play for it alone. Alliance Atlantis had been put on the market in late 2006 by its controlling shareholders, and several contenders lined up to bid. Included were Rogers, Quebecor, Montreal-based Astral Media, and the Shaw family's Corus Entertainment. CanWest was considered a long shot suitor due to its debt burden. It was able to work out an ingenious partnership, however, with New York-based investment bank Goldman Sachs. Their winning bid for Alliance Atlantis was $2.3 billion. In an innovative arrangement, CanWest contributed only $262 million in return for a 36-percent stake in a new subsidiary that would own the specialty channels. Goldman Sachs took the CSI franchise, the Odeon division, and the rest of the new specialty channel company.

The twist came in a deal to merge that company with Global's television holdings, including its specialty channels and the CH network, in 2011. Its final division of ownership would depend on the relative earnings of each component at that time. Global was forecast to earn $57 million in 2007, compared to $151 million for the Alliance Atlantis specialty channels. At those revenue levels, CanWest Global would account for 53.5 percent ($57 million + 36% of $151 million = $111.4 million) of the combined revenues of $208 million. The prospect thus loomed of the Aspers being minority owners in 2011. "The risk is really just performance," said Leonard Asper. "We've put it all on our own shoulders to perform."

The financial peril CanWest faced with the clock ticking toward 2011 was significant in the minds of some. The 33-percent profit margin that Global's television operations had enjoyed in their heyday of 2001 had dwindled to a mere 5 percent in 2006. With three hit shows in the fall of 2006, however, Global's financial fortunes blipped upward. Revenues increased by 11 percent in the first quarter of the company's 2006-07 fiscal year and earnings rose 30 percent. The improvement was cause for optimism that CanWest would ultimately emerge as majority owner of its new Global Alliance, according to Leonard Asper. Even if it didn't, he claimed CanWest would still be ahead of the game. "Whether it's 45 per cent or 55 per cent, we're still going to have a stronger net asset value, even on a present value basis, than we have today."

Their bold move to expand against all odds left the Asper heirs more dependent than ever on federal regulators. Their innovative acquisition of Alliance Atlantis would first need the blessing of the CRTC. Their Global television operations would then need every advantage they could get from Ottawa to keep them mostly Canadian. The bridges they had been building to the new Conservative government would thus be more important than ever to CanWest. That in turn suggested mutual admiration would continue to be expressed between the federal government and Canada's largest news media company. Whether the result would be the news coverage Canadians needed seemed less likely than Davey's prediction it would be the press they deserved for failing to demand better.

On Friday: The roots and rise of Israel Asper, founder of CanWest Global.  [Tyee]

58  Comments:

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  • zalm

    4 years ago

    More dirt! More dirt!

    It was hard giving up the paper at first, but after near-continuous disappointment since 2000, I've gotten quite used to it. Haven't read a Canwaste daily rag since 2005. Still catch the Vancouver Courier now and again, when someone deigns to deliver it to my door, which isn't very often.

    TV's been easy to avoid - it's been such a wasteland that I gave it up around the same time, and finally even my completely non-political-and-to-be-perfectly-honest-somewhat-pollyannish wife gave up on Bill and Pamela a few months ago. Even she couldn't stomach the crud that Leonard Asper makes them say.

    CKNW's been a little bit harder to give up on. When stripping paint on the house or building a project in the shop, sometimes I'll still turn it for an hour or so - whatever it takes to get completely disillusioned with the manipulation of the issues that Bill and Christy and our very own Chuckie-doll Adler (that complete racist PSYCHO!) perpetrate on a willing gang of balding middle-aged guys of a certain political persuasion.... especially since they got rid of their resident comedian Michael Smyth (7-9pm).

    So, with rather more pleasure, I give you the west-coast summary of Edge's book, which you should still read anyway, for the details.

    http://sundaymag.ca/index.php?id=237

    Who'd have thought that refugees from collectivist repression would learn the lesson so well as to apply it here in the country that gave them home? Isn't there any way of giving the Aspers knighthoods or lordships or something - anything - to get them to drop their Canadian citizenship and lose their papers?

  • darcy.mcgee

    4 years ago

    Umm...one small problem

    Isn't it natural for big business to latch onto the winning team?

    Izzy was a Liberal on principal, which was one of the things I liked about him.

    His kids are just snakes, going after the easiest prey. Nothing more. What they're doing is entirely natural.

    Until we build a different culture of business...as different culture of success, why would you expect anything else?

  • Stump

    4 years ago

    small correction

    Quote:
    TV's been easy to avoid - it's been such a wasteland that I gave it up around the same time, and finally even my completely non-political-and-to-be-perfectly-honest-somewhat-pollyannish wife gave up on Bill and Pamela a few months ago. Even she couldn't stomach the crud that Leonard Asper makes them say.

    Bill and Pamela are Bell/Globemedia meat puppets.

  • Jeffrey J.

    4 years ago

    Marc Edge is Back

    I was pleased as punch to see Marc Edge's name on my daily reading of the Tyee this morning. I have his earlier book "Pacific Press" on my shelf and I recommend it to anyone who wants to keep abreast of BC's previous media monopolies. Boycotting current media monopolies like CanWestGlobal is obviously catching on. Their subscription rates are dropping like a stone. Turning off our TV five years ago remains one of the single most coherent decisions we've ever made.

    The good news about Canadian and American citizens is that many, many people hunger for real news, real content, real discussions. Which you won't find in these inflated, self serving "infotainment" monopolies which are mostly focused on entertainmnet and ideology. Neither of which are particularly interesting to many citizens. I can't WAIT for Marc's latest book to come out. First on my list. Keep up the great work.

  • ubiquitous

    4 years ago

    speaking of ideology

    anyone else catch the vancouver sun's latest attempt to skewer teachers due to the inappropriate actions of 3 or 4?

  • Working Man

    4 years ago

    More Blame?

    Of course, the Tyee is also aligned with a particular political movement (perennially the losing team), ergo the fact it did not even report the fall of the government in Saskatchewan. What gives?

    Izzy Asper was about as Liberal as anybody can get. Leonard is simply attaching himself to what he sees as the leading horse. We can't forget that the main reason that newspapers exist is to sell copies of said paper and the advertising that is in them. They know their demographic (mostly white and over 45) votes conservative so that is who they target their copy at.

  • Van Isle

    4 years ago

    It's surprising, who reads

    It's surprising, who reads the mass-media pulp nowadays? Of all the people my age that I know only have contempt for the mass-media. Most get their information thru the computer or watch programs like Frontline. I was talking to a wife of retired lawyer last week who listens to the Bill Good program occassionally while puttering around the house and made the comment that "Bill isn't too bright, is he?"

  • murdock

    4 years ago

    The Real News

    Quote:
    The good news about Canadian and American citizens is that many, many people hunger for real news, real content, real discussions. Which you won't find in these inflated, self serving "infotainment" monopolies which are mostly focused on entertainmnet and ideology.

    Here is another source Jeffrey J.

    The REAL NEWS

    Like a TV newscast without the stupid frills with information and informed opinion and content that is like a breath of fresh air after confinement in a hot room.

  • murdock

    4 years ago

    Crap is king!

    Quote:
    Bill and Pamela are Bell/Globemedia meat puppets.

    I nearly choked on my tea reading that Stump!

    This whole affair reminds me of the Don Henly tune Dirty Laundry.

    Bill Good:
    Well, I coulda been an actor, but I wound up here
    I just have to look good, I dont have to be clear

    Pamela Martin:
    We got the bubble-headed-bleach-blonde who comes on at five
    She can tell you bout the plane crash with a gleam in her eye

    Looks are all that matter, so yes very much they are in the 'meat' puppet theatre.

  • G West

    4 years ago

    Oh Baloney working man

    This is your constant refrain:

    Quote:
    "...the Tyee is also aligned with a particular political movement"

    I think it's BS. As for covering Saskatchewan provincial politics or Ontario, Alberta and the other provinces...excluding Quebec...the Tyee has never made much of what's going on anywhere else except as it impinges on BC.

    The NDP loss, after 16 years in power, in Saskatchewan, WAS duly noted on these pages. You need to pay a lot more attention...either that or stop making silly noises that don't reflect the facts.

  • IAMC

    4 years ago

    What's new?

    So teh Adpers are conservative.
    What a shock, considering they live in the last NDP government in Canada.
    As we all know Sask. threw out the NDP last week. Good riddens.
    What a tired bunch of activists we have here on this site.
    Still going on about Canwest Media.
    I reaaly wonder about the relevance of The Tyee anymore.
    The same old argument continually appears.
    The evil conservative agenda ( hidden ) is about to change our country into a George Bush styled republican administration.
    Bill Good has no influence on anybody with a brain.
    I suppose he is topical, with enough influence to get guests on his show of high profile, but nobody changes their lives because of something he said.
    It's simply the usual Canwest bashing argument over and over again.
    I am tired of this site.
    I am going away for awhile, hoping some originallity appeares somehow.

  • G West

    4 years ago

    BYE RON

    To quote you back at yourself:

    Quote:
    Good riddens(sic).

  • jimmy_laroux

    4 years ago

    Working Man: Quote:We can't

    Working Man:

    Quote:
    We can't forget that the main reason that newspapers exist is to sell copies of said paper and the advertising that is in them.

    True. Readers are the commodity, not the "news".

    Quote:
    They know their demographic (mostly white and over 45) votes conservative so that is who they target their copy at.

    You clearly confuse cause and effect. Did you read the article?

  • Frank

    4 years ago

    Ron Erwin

    So you rail constantly against the "liberal bias" of the MSM and then when you finally admit its a conservative bias you tell us media bashing is getting old and leave?

    Bye Ron

  • Working Memory

    4 years ago

    Shift gears IAMC

    If you're tired of talking about it here on The Tyee, do something about it.

    Go online and create something original. It can be a blog, YouTube series, etc.

    Write a book.

    Pick a topic, set a goal of three months and work towards attracting attention to the cause you think is important.

    At the end of three months decide whether you are on track, and move forward based on what you've accomplished and where you want to go.

    One suggestion though, if you want to have impact, pick a topic you have passion for and one that will attract wide interest.

    The changing face of news media is pretty hot right now, and so is the 2010 Olympics.

    Run with it ...

  • GJW

    4 years ago

    Maybe it's in the book

    One thing to remember is that business in Canada is different from the U.S. In a lot of ways we've never gotten over the models set centuries ago by the Family Compact and the Hudson Bay Company.

    Business grows and expands and takes over other businesses. That's just the nature of the free market. This happens all the time in the U.S. but the difference is that there's still competition in the US among the big players, who are buying and selling and splitting and merging all the time, so bigger is not always better. Small businesses – and news outlets – can still do well and be profitable covering a small field.

    In Canada, the name of the game is to become the biggest and buy everyone else out. This approach applies to media companies, too. Small does not usually survive – it either dies out, or gets bought out. The name of the game is to be big, and to use your bulk throw your weight around. By those rules, I guess the Aspers win.

    They're not all that different from Hearst.

  • Working Memory

    4 years ago

    Theory of Chaos

    Mr. Edge, your book assembles a confluence of information that pushes mainstream news media another step closer to the "edge" of implosion.

    When energy is bifurcated along parallel lines into a chaotic state of momentum it takes very little to push the model into the next paradigm.

    For example, it takes very little energy to turn water to steam once you've raised the temperature of water to one degree less than boiling point.

    The news media pendulum swings far left, then far right, but when it reaches absolute center where energy changes direction, a precarious level of confusion occurs.

    Fractals at first look chaotic and without order, but in fact the exact opposite is true if you look closely.

    What slight tap will it take to push this old news media model over the edge into the next realm?

    I'm betting that any news topic that can sustain public attention for a short span, and one that impacts people socially and financially daily, and that they can easily understand without serious study or personal investment, will do the trick.

    In our Vancouver region, events like the 2010 Olympics and how mainstream news media influence the pendulum create the chaos needed to push the news model over the edge.

    Thank you Mr. Edge. Your new book makes my job easier.

  • zalm

    4 years ago

    Snicker....

    Quote:
    Bill and Pamela are Bell/Globemedia meat puppets.

    Obviously I am too if I don't even know who owns the media I excoriate so freely. Thanks Stump.

  • zalm

    4 years ago

    Sorry Working Man

    ...new metaphor needed. It takes nearly five times as much energy to turn water at the boiling point into steam as it does to raise the temperature of the water from freezing to boiling. Based on a pound of water/steam, it takes 1 Btu for every degree F increase, or 180 Btus to raise water from freezing to boiling, but 970 Btus to convert that boiling water into steam.

    How about pushing on two pencils pointed at each other? Nudge them out of line, and you end up with broken knuckles? Might be a decent metaphor for ink-stained scriveners...

  • zalm

    4 years ago

    Bye Ron...

    [COMMENT OFFENSIVE TO ANOTHER COMMENTER REMOVED. -EDITOR.]

  • Capitalism

    4 years ago

    Same old!

    Here goes. I've frequented this site far less over the past six months. In fact, I wouldn't even say I frequent it anymore. I seldomly pop in hoping to see some sort of original thought. I certainly haven't found it on this thread.

    Is Canwest MSM? Yes. It is what it is. I believe for the most part, we see independent journalism. Though, it has a pro-business slant which is obvious - we are a pro-business society. People in BC and most of Canada believe in commerce and capitalism.

    People have heard the tired old olympic/union/poverty debates that are continually pushed on this site. You only need to hear it once. For the most part, people don't agree.

    Canwest is merely giving its customers what it wants. As for the subscription comment somewhere above...This has more to do with the digital revolution than anything else. Print media is dying a slow death.

  • Working Memory

    4 years ago

    zalm

    First, it's working memory, not working man, and my point was that the news industry is barely one degree from boiling, which means with just a bit of a nudge it will turn to steam, ... but I do like your pencil metaphor too.

  • Working Memory

    4 years ago

    Capitalism

    I appreciate your frustration, but when you wrote, "Canwest is merely giving its customers what it wants" you underscore why we have to keep putting pressure on them.

    News media is not supposed to give us what we want. It's why too many Vancouverites are complacent respective of global vision.

    Surely you can't be happy living in this void, oblivious to what the rest of the world is doing or thinking. Contrary to what local msm preaches, insularity is not an attribute, it's an anchor.

    Legally, ethically, and morally, news media is supposed to tell us what we need to hear, not what we want to hear.

    If what you say is true, then CanWest must quit referring to themselves as a newspaper and call themselves an advertising brochure.

    Why would you want to give in so easily, especially at a time when you have so much power to make a change that would better society?

    You're a millimeter away from watching historical transformation, but you choose to close your eyes.

    At the very least offer a good argument other than to say "I'm bored."

    What exactly do you expect if you don't personally act on the stories and comments made here? When was the last time in casual conversation that you corrected someone when they put too much faith in msm, or when they told you how excited they were to volunteer for 2010? Do you bring them up to speed or simply go along for the ride?

    The challenge is that many of the ills suffered in society are tied directly to mainstream news media. If it weren't for mainstream news media allowing themselves to be a conduit to big business and politicians we wouldn't be in such a mess. How do you think George W Bush got his alarmist message out to millions of scared Americans? Osmosis? A newsletter?

    Granted, smarter people like you are less influenced, but the point is that the less sophisticated aren't capable of making good choices when all they have is msm on which to base their decisions.

    Naive people vote too.

    Don't complain when they vote for a leader that drinks a drives - twice.

  • jimmy_laroux

    4 years ago

    Ah, Capitalism, where have

    Ah, Capitalism, where have you been these past few months?

    Quote:
    People have heard the tired old olympic/union/poverty debates that are continually pushed on this site.

    Are these not important issues?

    Quote:
    You only need to hear it once. For the most part, people don't agree.

    I've missed your glib statements, ridiculous generalisations, and flat-out lies. Glad you're back ;)

  • dorothy

    4 years ago

    What who wants?

    "News media is not supposed to give us what we want. It's why too many Vancouverites are complacent respective of global vision."

    But, but, that's not what the man said. He said

    "Canwest is merely giving its customers what it wants..."

    AM I mistaken in thinkig I see the ghost of one of those 'original thoughts' here? Please don't tell me I must retreat to my cavern of dark depression again, with nothing to chew on and rejoice in!

  • Stump

    4 years ago

    corrections, corrections

    Zalm:

    You can't be a 'meat-puppet' unless you're a tv anchor-person. It's a term used to highlight the fact that they often do little of their own writing, or reporting, and simply read what's on the screen a la Ron Burgundy.

    Capitalism:

    This quote demonstrates you don't understand the media very well.

    Quote:
    Canwest is merely giving its customers what it wants.

    Canwest's customers are its advertisers. They sell readers to them. With declining readership, they are most definitely NOT giving their customers what they want.

  • Frank

    4 years ago

    Mabel Lake

    Cap, how is it that you only need to hear about poverty once but you need to hear about business and capitalism every day?

    Some of us think it should be the other way around eh.

  • Stump

    4 years ago

    words to work by

    Quote:
    Legally, ethically, and morally, news media is supposed to tell us what we need to hear, not what we want to hear.

    The old saying re: journalism's aim no longer rings true very much anymore.

    "Comfort the afflicted. Afflict the comfortable."

  • Birch

    4 years ago

    Friday

    "Just the facts, Ma'am, just the facts. The opinions I can work out for myself."

    Who'da thunk early American tv could get it so right? And how can the Aspers get it so wrong?

  • The brain

    4 years ago

    Marc truly has the "Edge"

    Nothing spells out the need to break up media concentration moreso, than what this exerpt has to say, and essentially, its this. In a world where you don't bite the hand that feeds you, you simply don't bite the hand that feeds you. Harper and the Aspers simply need each other for survival right now... thats made plain in Marcs excerpt.

    What is not made so plain (mind you, this is only an excerpt), is what the U.S. means for Israels own survival, and what Republican/corporate U.S. wants from Canada... which is to own it, and surprisingly enough, the U.S. doesn't own it all... yet. The U.S. needs a Canadian government that is desperate enough or dumb enough or greedy enough (all one and the same) to deregulate our economic sectors to facilitate the sale of Canada's resources as consumers, not just commodities.

    Enter the corporate lobbiest Stephen Harper, 'cause thats exactly what he is. Nothing more, nothing less. No genius here, but rather, a brainwashed ideologue that might seriously believe Canada is just another U.S. state. Harper doesn't speak on behalf of the average Canadian, but rather, U.S. born multinationals who want to own and run us and the quicker this nation wakes up to it, the better off this nation and this world will be.

    Broadcasting? Deregulated. Wheatboard? CBC? Medicare? Gone. Insurance? Banks? Foreign owned by guess who. Increases in Defense spending? Its what corporate america/shareholders want. Thats where its all going with Harper. And while they are at it, threaten to get rid of the senate that leads to getting them elected. Easier to control for the likes of all corporations, like Can West media... and oil, insurance, HMO's, manufacturing... you name it... and harder for a government to centralize again. Nothing is safe with Harper's distaste for the Canadian way. It really is corporate america first with him and its not surprising that the average person doesn't know this, knowing who the majority shareholders are of Can West.

    Wise is the saying, "You'll know them by their works."

    And the media does have that much to play in this. Without facts, the voters can't accurately make the right choices for what is best for Canada and the world... which is why we so badly need media competition in a free democracy. Without it, serious issues can and often are avoided, while mild issues become election issues. From there... its not the best government, but the best run campaign with media backing that wins. This exerpt really impressed me and I can't think of a better solution to impliment at any time, than this one proposed.

    Quote:
    Davey's committee proposed several steps to remedy the problem of media concentration. A Press Ownership Review Board would have had the power to block newspaper sales or mergers that increased concentration. A system of subsidies would have encouraged the founding of alternative publications. - Mark Edge

  • Capitalism

    4 years ago

    Frank

    Quote:
    Cap, how is it that you only need to hear about poverty once but you need to hear about business and capitalism every day?

    Business feeds all of our families. Economic issues are incredibly complex. To some extent, you are right. Though, I don't necessarily believe that business issues are front and center. In fact, they are typically relegated to one section of the newspaper. Businessmen have resources to draw upon (Financial Post and various publications/websites) - but I'd hardly say the issues I am interested in are front and centre.

    Personally, I recognize things for what they are. I haven't read the NEWS in any CanWest Paper, other than the odd article in the Vancouver Sun, for years.

    I have a couple of sites I come to, this being one, though I've come less and less because I'm tired of hearing the same old issues. I'm actually tired of the lack of solutions and ideas proposed. Global Warming is a great example. We all know it is a problem. Yet, I rarely read a productive essay on the issue from this site. However, my business sites, propose all sorts of novel ideas. Mind you, they are typically profit oriented.

    The media is what it is. It is made up of people. People are biased. From what I've seen, I don't believe CanWest is incredibly out of touch with the mainstream. I do think the Tyee is. I haven't seen any glaring evidence of an agence, however who knows, maybe we're being sent subliminal messages...

    Thankfully, new forms of media are emerging - all full of biases. This place is about as biased as they come. The danger is that people will choose to read what they want to read and dilute themselves further. Fun times ahead.

  • Stump

    4 years ago

    disinformation

    Quote:
    I'm actually tired of the lack of solutions and ideas proposed.

    It would be easier to discuss solutions and ideas if so much time and energy didn't need to be spent correcting and countering the disinformation that is spread by the posters displaying a "right-wing" bias.

    Lead, follow, or get out of the way, but don't whinge about the lack of productive debate when you are among those perpetuating outdated and disproven philosophies and solutions.

  • ubiquitous

    4 years ago

    cappy

    I would argue, Capitalism, that the tyee discussion forum is not about generating new ideas but a place to discuss the ideas put forth in their articles. Nevertheless, you haven't been paying attention, the tyee offers many suggestions and ideas to go along with its critisms of the mainstream. That you can't see that is troubling but I presume that if the ideas presented do not offer a reasonable return on investment, it's passed over as the same ol' same ol' from the tyee. Where it gets tiring here is when the debate turns sour, typically as a result of a ron erwin or elliot stir shite up post.

  • jimmy_laroux

    4 years ago

    Capitalism: Quote:From what

    Capitalism:

    Quote:
    From what I've seen, I don't believe CanWest is incredibly out of touch with the mainstream.

    That's like saying ICBC car insurance rates are fairly average for BC. CanWest owns three of the four major daily papers in BC, not to mention Global TV. I think you even state as much in your first post:

    Quote:
    Is Canwest MSM? Yes.

    Quote:
    This place is about as biased as they come.

    Oh, do enlighten us!

  • G West

    4 years ago

    No you don't

    Quote:
    Personally, I recognize things for what they are.

    In my opinion Cappy, you do just the opposite. You ignore the way things are because it suits you to do so and continue to profit from the shell game practiced by corporate kleptocracy.

    That's why you don't like it here...because some people (and some journalists) aren't prepared to eat and serve a steady diet of the same swill CanWest and the other liars feed to the public in an attempt to convince them that:
    a) Business actually does anything positive for them except as an aside (like feeding the livestock), and;
    b) That they have to keep working for, and buying from, the same agents that enslave them, all the while;
    c) The tax system is rigged against them as workers and real contributors in a system which rewards people like you who actually do nothing productive, produce nothing real and contribute nothing positive.

    I'm not surprised you don't find the atmosphere very congenial - many of us do the best we can, in the limited time available, to see that you and yours will be a sub-species whose time is limited.

    For the good of the Earth, mankind and the future – you’re the one who needs to change or, as Stump points out, move the hell out of the way . We have too many corporate welfare bums on the streets anyway.

  • Working Memory

    4 years ago

    CanWest is Mainstream?

    Quote:

    "I don't believe CanWest is incredibly out of touch with the mainstream. I do think the Tyee is."

    I actually can't argue with that statement Cap, because that is the point.

    CanWest has a stranglehold on the mainstream (what's left of it anyway), while The Tyee is trying to serve an alternative viewpoint.

    Like you, I've also suggested in other threads here that capitalism (not you Cap) generates bias for everyone.

    Mainstream news is primarily interested in serving large companies, which leaves the smaller companies and their employees out in the cold.

    Each time the market becomes fractured mainstream news companies lose their foothold.

    What's wrong with giving the owner of a small or midsize company a bigger voice?

    Considering that 98% of the businesses in BC are small or midsize, most of us here, if not retired, probably own or work for one, which means it also gives you a bigger voice.

    I don't see the downside.

  • Capitalism

    4 years ago

    Working Memory

    You are right! Like I said, I don't read the garbage on CanWest. I actually agree with Mr. West though I do so from a different spectrum.

    I come here for perspective and I believe that we are starting to see alternative forms of media which do share different viewpoints.

    I believe that many of you are right. Capitalism, especially in the States, has outdone itself. Too many corporate fat cats, too many paper pushers, too many people doing nothing of any real value. I've travelled throughout the States and seen it first hand. Something has to give.

    I don't think we're as bad here in Canada. We still know how to make, mine and refine things. Though, we have to do a better job of commoditizing our raw materials. We need to refine our crude and process our gas - here in Canada. Right now, we just ship raw commodities to the U.S. We need to mill our own products here - though we have major union problems in BC. It is not cost effective to mill in Canada. Not because we can't but we have too many employees that demand too much. We need to invest in technology at the expense of labour. Otherwise, we'll lose all of our productive capacity. We need to start over to remain competitive.

    The U.S. is little more than a shell game. You're right G West. You have to see it to believe it. I've seen it while Garth just spits rhetoric. Stuff I'm sure he's read in other blogs.

    Times are changing and we need to be on the cutting edge. Lower taxes and lower spending provides us will more economic flexibility.

  • Capitalism

    4 years ago

    Garth

    I've said it time and again. I am well positioned for anything. In fact, if this day of reckoning occurs, I'll benefit. I'm prepared for it.

    Invest in Gold, Silver and Platinum. Invest in ocean and lake front real estate. They might go up, they might go down...but they ain't going away!

    We need to make a lot of changes. Though, the changes I vision would probably make you sick.

  • G West

    4 years ago

    You have no idea

    I never read blogs my friend - it's an utter waste of time.

    I'm interested in investing in people, not things and I'm prepared to see you go broke and get a real job. A further point is that you’re simply uniformed about the real state of affairs and blinded by the glitz of the lights and the tinkle of the jukebox. I call it the Vegas syndrome.

    I'm just sorry many innocent people are going to be hurt on the way down.

    You and what you believe in already make me sick - nothing rhetorical about it either - Really sick.

    If we had to rely on investors and capitalists for productive capacity the lights would all go off tomorrow. Moreover, the way the Campbell government is selling off assets like BC Hydro that may happen anyway.

    The kind of giveaway rates industrial customers get from Hydro while we're giving away Columbia River power to the Americans is criminal.

    You need to get out a lot more. Maybe look at what's happening to the productive plant and equipment needed to run the forest industry. It's being loaded on barges and ships for transport to China - even as we 'speak'.

  • Antonia Zerbisias

    4 years ago

    Nicely done

    Thanks for the freebie book Marc. I was pleased to see my media research and blog live on.

    Just one thing about this excerpt.

    The following part should have been italicized, or at least in quotes. That last sentence is one of my best lines ever!

    Last month, at a broadcasters' convention in Ottawa, Oda told her audience "I'm with you. I'm one of you." She also said she is "committed to more regulatory flexibility." Well, let me tell you, after covering this business for the better part of 17 years, I have learned that, when broadcasters talk about "flexibility," it's always Canadian artists, citizens, consumers who bend over.

    Congratulations nonetheless.

  • James Burns

    4 years ago

    lost cause

    These days, I tend not to comment much on articles related to Canadian media. I've considered the so-called mainstream media in Canada and the US an utter lost cause since the build-up and launching of the Iraq war. The only solution in my mind are exceptionally harsh antitrust measures that will dissolve and the oligopoly currently in control of much of western mainstream media, especially here in North America.

    The affects of corporatization on news and entertainment media has been a clear descent into fascism with all it's kitsch ("reality" TV, celebrity obsession), and all it's horror. Particularly in its unending excusing of the slaughter of countless innocent civilian in the Middle East, and anywhere western corporate interests are being enforced. I often wonder how any journalist of conscience can possibly work to support such bare faced corruption and injustice. It continually boggles my mind.

    But there is one thing that amazes me more. The simple fact that those who have suffered most at our hands are still willing treat us as human beings.

  • The brain

    4 years ago

    Find myself agreeing with you, James

    In spades. Excellent points. And you know where I stand in terms of why it is, that the voter continues to elect corporate lobbiests into power due to the lack of media coverage on the background of those who are running for office. GWB, Cheney, James Baker, Stephen Harper (with his NCC presidency) and Tony Blair, all had this in common. For what its worth, so do the Clintons, albeit, they danced to different CEO's. And the reason we both know? Media. Corporate controlled media.

    Quote:
    I'm actually tired of the lack of solutions and ideas proposed. - Capitalism

    But there was a solution proposed in this exerpt of Marc Edges book. Care to debate it with me, Cappy? Or do you feel as though there is no such concentrated media in Canada, as you say, "new forms of media are emerging", so we don't have a problem, where the only explanation to less than satifactory news is poor reporting and management?

    For what its worth with all your talk of investment, Cappy, is that the sub prime mess in the U.S. is far larger than most realize. 1 in 5 morgages are sub-prime. It is theorized that 2/3rds of these morgages will default as valuations spiral. As for how many morgages defaulting that aren't sub prime in the face of a recession, who's to say, but two things are easy to predict in terms of where the U.S. is headed.

    The former Republican congress's idea to deregulate the banking industry with GWB
    's blessing in an effort to create a sub prime area of morgaging to stimilate construction and real estate growth, combined with federal borrowing to fund war, is crashing their currency and creating shaky debt... to which the Republicans can do nothing more than take credit for the next U.S. recession.

    Fact: GWB ran up 3.6 trillion in fresh debt over a mere 6 years, out of their total 9 trillion of debt. By comparison, Clinton's administration ran up 1.2 trillion in new debt over 8 years. $4 trillion of the U.S. deficit is Fed and State, while 5 trillion is commercial. When one absorbs these numbers, its not hard to see why U.S. currency is falling.

    If China's currency had stayed at par with the rest of the leading nations of the world and allowed the U.S. dollar to devalue relative to their own, the U.S. would see a dramatic increase in manufactured imported goods and that would sink it home as to what has actually happened and fear would appear at the counters, spinning the U.S. into a recession much sooner, more dramatically. China's currency, by the way, can go up at any time and the consequences to the U.S. would be dire if it were so. A simple... reality cheque, as it were. Americans who travel are already exeriencing their devalued dollar now. And if nothing is done to curb new trade deficits in the U.S., their currency will continue to free fall.

  • The brain

    4 years ago

    Cont.

    While I am empathetic with what the average american will through in the coming years, I must admit that the economic plans of elected corporate lobbyists to give corporations everything they want, merely to watch them implode on their own greed, looks good on them.

    Chickens, as they say, are coming home to roost. Bad policy, as they say, is bad policy.

    Lorne Mccuaig
    Revelstoke, BC

  • zalm

    4 years ago

    Cappy

    Quote:
    I've said it time and again. I am well positioned for anything. In fact, if this day of reckoning occurs, I'll benefit. I'm prepared for it.

    Invest in Gold, Silver and Platinum. Invest in ocean and lake front real estate. They might go up, they might go down...but they ain't going away!

    Don't relax too much yet. 1930's Germany made it illegal to hold any metals without an owernship certificate - theory being that if you were a speculator, you weren't welcome; if you were an investor protecting yourself, you were just trying to take your wealth out of the country; and if you weren't a corporation, you weren't contributing to the effort of putting Germans back to work and building up the country for the arms race.

    And in case you hadn't noticed, here in BC, Campbell stripped away your right to say what happens on you land when miner wants something on it. You also can't do anything with it in a riparian zone, and you can't unilaterally declare the airspace above it yours. And over the next few years, the remaining property rights you do have will be chipped away until nothing is left except your title and no land, like the citizens of Cochibamba, who were forbidden to collect rainwater that fell on their houses, becasue then they wouldn't buy the water from the Frrench corporation that bought the town water system.

    So don't be too smug...

    ...unless you're a big corporation.

  • Canis Latrans

    4 years ago

    A corprate propaganda media yawn...

    These days, I tend not to comment much on articles related to Canadian media. I've considered the so-called mainstream media in Canada and the US an utter lost cause since the build-up and launching of the Iraq war. Wrote James Burns.

    The corporate/propaganda-media (ie CanWest) connection has long been apparent enough that it has become trite to even note it. Fast approaching that same level of given understanding, of course, is the corporate ruling-class/electoral system connection as well. Both these information and "official" governance systems, and their subjection to corporatist/wealth control mechanisms/manipulation should soon be about as equally obvious a given. (With all the current "official" parties to capitalism, knowing and willing participants in the charade.)

    It's what passes for "democracy" to here.

    Sorry to hear Cappy even bothered coming back into these threads at all. His tiresome apologetics for the system have become so worn as to be threadbare too. :-)

  • Stump

    4 years ago

    le sigh

    Quote:
    We need to invest in technology at the expense of labour.

    A good union job means a worker is probably giving about 25% back to the gov't out of every paycheque. And spends most of the rest for food, shelter, etc. In other words, contributing to the economy.

    I've never seen a new piece of technology buy a bag of groceries.

    No wonder our economy is so screwed up. The capitalists don't understand how it works.

  • Canis Latrans

    4 years ago

    Stump...

    Quote:
    The capitalists don't understand how it works. Wrote Stump.

    Well, my friend Stump sure as hell does.

    Good one, Stump.

  • ME2

    4 years ago

    understanding economics

    The Fascists don't care how it all works, Stump. Their only concern re the workability of anything is how quickly it can make them some money.

    "The Market", or so they say, will take care of everything else.

  • Stump

    4 years ago

    I like my roadrunner bbq'ed

    thanx Canis

    You might say I've learned a few things from some old dogs. :-)

  • Capitalism

    4 years ago

    Mr. Stump

    Quote:
    No wonder our economy is so screwed up. The capitalists don't understand how it works.

    A decent point...not a great one. The thing you don't seem to understand is that we don't have a choice. Whether you like it or not, we export commodities. The industry only exists because other provinces/countries decide to buy from us.

    We are competing against other nations and other exporters. Our customers will NOT pay more because we take care of our labour force. They will go to Brazil, South Carolina, Georgia, etc. etc.

    To remain competitive, we need to keep costs down. If we don't, our customers won't buy our good and there will be no jobs at all.

    My point is that in today's world, we need to move away from labour intensive work. We need to create better technologies, which allow us to be more productive. We can also export this technology.

    You raise a good "trickle down" point. However, competitive forces demand we increase productivity and minimize costs. Otherwise, there will be no industry - and no jobs at all...

  • Capitalism

    4 years ago

    Brain

    Brain:

    Quote:
    The former Republican congress's idea to deregulate the banking industry with GWB's blessing in an effort to create a sub prime area of morgaging to stimilate construction and real estate growth, combined with federal borrowing to fund war, is crashing their currency and creating shaky debt... to which the Republicans can do nothing more than take credit for the next U.S. recession.

    Much of this was Alan Greenspan's vision! Alan seems to be ducking the blame. He shouldn't. It was his teaser rates, his flawed interest rate policy and his position on real estate which cause this.

    While I can't stand GWB, I don't think he's entirely at fault here. He's been aweful. No doubt.

    Stop comparing Bush to Harper. So far, Harper has been anything but Bush. There are absolutely no simlilarities. In fact, Harper has been far left (fiscally) that I was expecting him to be.

  • G West

    4 years ago

    I don't believe this is accurate

    Quote:
    ...competitive forces demand we increase productivity and minimize costs. Otherwise, there will be no industry - and no jobs at all...

    In fact I think it's not much more than the mantra certain elites use to push their horrendously unfair personal agenda.

    It's much like the arguments against single-payer universal health care in the US.

    In fact, if the commodities aren't sold now, they'll still be around in the future when international prices are actually higher.

    If the products of the competitive exercise were being allocated in anything like an equitable fashion - with the majority of the profits going to the people who actually do the work - you might have a point.

    All our much vaunted competitiveness does is marginalize 80% of the population and unjustly reward about half of the remaining 20%.

    We had more industrial jobs and a better distribution of rewards in this country thirty years ago than we do now - and very little of that product (outside of the automotive industry) was actually exported.

    Even in high-tech areas all that competition and cost cutting have done is lead to international takeovers and more shifts of productive resources outside the country.

    The corporate capital model hasn't worked and it won't work. We need a much more Canada centered and locally oriented production and industrial system.

    It wouldn't bother our economy one bit if all the millionaires all ended up in jail with Conrad. In fact, the people who actually are productive would be much better off than they are now.

    We need taxation reform and we need it now – before it’s too late – playing with a crooked roulette wheel is a good way to start a bar brawl.

  • kootcoot

    4 years ago

    What's that sound?

    I Am Clueless sez:

    Quote:
    I am tired of this site.
    I am going away for awhile, hoping some originallity appeares somehow.

    Cappy sez:

    Quote:
    Here goes. I've frequented this site far less over the past six months. In fact, I wouldn't even say I frequent it anymore. I seldomly pop in hoping to see some sort of original thought. I certainly haven't found it on this thread.

    Ah the sound of doors slappin' backsides, it's music to these ears.

    Working Mem, as knowledgeable as you seem to be about the Music Biz and Media, science isn't your forte. As others above have pointed out your metaphor/analogy was poorly chosen.

    Indeed the amount of energy needed or released when matter changes states (from solid to liquid, liquid to gas, etc.) is immense compared to warming the same volume of whatever one degree. Indeed if it were not so, we wouldn't have refrigerators or air conditioning, or they would have to use a different technology. This is even how those old canvas "desert" water bags people used to hang on their bumper kept water cool, through evaporation (liquid to gas).

    But I like your basic premise, that maybe we are nearing some boiling point. Now if we could use that hot water to cauterize what currently passes for government!!!

  • kootcoot

    4 years ago

    Investment Tips from Cappy

    Quote:
    Invest in ocean and lake front real estate. They might go up, they might go down...but they ain't going away!

    Aren't you forgetting, they might go underwater - then your claim to them would be kinda like the Russian flag at the North Pole. I guess you could stay in your beach bungalow though, as long as you remember to bring your SCUBA.

  • Canis Latrans

    4 years ago

    Quote:...then your claim to

    Quote:
    ...then your claim to them would be kinda like the Russian flag at the North Pole. Wrote mein freund, Kootkoot.

    A good laugh Koot.

    These, "it's all about me" hockey pucks, like the wingnut clueless one's here, really are too much sometimes. Caricatures all.

  • Canis Latrans

    4 years ago

    A tip of the derby...

    ...to GWest immediately above me here too. Who, when he is spot on hot, is hot.

  • village

    4 years ago

    I,ll second that motion CANIS LATRANS.. and a thanks to KOOTKOOT

    A great read , ladies and gentleman.
    THANKS..

    Village.

  • village

    4 years ago

    Aren't you forgetting, they might go underwater - then your clai

    Aren't you forgetting, they might go underwater - then your claim to them would be kinda like the Russian flag at the North Pole. I guess you could stay in your beach bungalow though, as long as you remember to bring your SCUBA.

    I'm still laughing on that great line..
    Kootcoot

    ''playing with a crooked roulette wheel is a good way to start a bar brawl.'' and this zinger is a very powerfull image Gwest*..

    Thanks all for a great contribution to a worthy topic for discussion..

    Looking forward to the next installements .

    Village.

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