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Work Outsourced from Sun, Province Newsrooms
Sun editor: union concerns over local control 'pretty silly.'
CEP's Bocking: Blames debt.
Work traditionally done in the newsroom at the Vancouver Sun is now being sent by e-mail across the country to be done by non-union staff of the CanWest empire in Hamilton, Ontario, union sources say, claiming the result will be further erosion of the paper's local character and erosion of the unionized work force here.
An announcement of similar in-house work transfer at the Province is expected any day now, and both newsrooms are buzzing with rumors of upcoming cuts to newsroom staff, expected to be announced in the next two weeks.
"Our members are extremely concerned," says Mike Bocking, local 2000 president at the Communications, Energy and Paperworkers Union of Canada (CEP) which represents workers at both the Sun and the Province. Bocking told The Tyee that work usually done by copy editors laying out pages in the Vancouver Sun newsroom was being sent across the country to a Hamilton, Ontario operation, CanWest Editorial Services, a non-union shop, for lower cost completion of the lay-out .
He said that work from the Province newsroom was soon to be added to the cross-country work transfer, and that similar shifts were taking place at other CanWest papers, including the Ottawa Citizen, where the Newspaper Guild represents newsroom workers.
'Local control, local voice'
"There are important issues here of local control and local voice," Bocking said. "What we're seeing here is an increased homogenization of the news that makes the paper tedious.
"This isn't classic outsourcing because the work is going to another CanWest entity, but the impact on the newsroom and on the quality of the paper is bad," Bocking said.
"Layout might seem like a mechanical or packaging issue to a layperson, but it isn't really. It determines the play you are giving to a particular story. The layout of content is very important, and we think it should be done in the local newsroom. That's why we've launched a grievance about this matter at the Sun, and will soon at the Province," Bocking added.
Sun editor-in-chief Patricia Graham characterizes Bocking's concerns about preserving local control and voice as "pretty silly." She says the transfer of Vancouver layout work to Hamilton is essentially "in the family" and calls the layout being done there "essentially a mechanical function."
"For years," Graham told The Tyee," we've had some stock and sports, movie and TV listings done outside the newsroom. More recently we've started to have other pages done in Hamilton, but all the important decisions are made here in Vancouver."
In addition to the union concern about newsroom work lost to Hamilton, Bocking said that the CEP was hearing very credible rumors that both the Sun and Province would be announcing newsroom layoffs at staff meetings Wednesday, Nov. 7.
"I have heard from reliable sources that layoffs are coming," Bocking said, "and if these predictions are true, they only represent more erosion of the newsroom, a trend we've seen for a long time now at CanWest. There used to be a lot more unionized workers in the two newsrooms than there are now, and the threat of more job losses and the current moves to send our work across the country both suggest the trend is continuing. This is a product of insane levels of media concentration in Canada."
Concentration and debt
Sun editor Graham, asked on Nov. 2 about these accounts of upcoming lay-offs in her newsroom, told The Tyee, "I never comment on rumors."
Province editor Wayne Moriarty said "I can't give you any information. I can't have my staff reading something in The Tyee before they hear it from me."
On Friday the company reported losing over $50 million on operations in the last fiscal quarter. On Wednesday the publisher of the CanWest-owned Montreal Gazette announced newsroom staffing cuts through "voluntary" measures, and last month CanWest cut 200 jobs at its television stations across Canada, a move the company said would make it "more leading edge."
Bocking told The Tyee that big Canadian media companies repeatedly merge and create huge debt in the process, and then management tries to make cuts to journalists and other media workers to pay off the debt. There is a continual churning of sale and purchase in Canadian media, he said, with control consolidating in fewer and fewer corporate hands.
"It is important that the Canadian Radio and Television Commission and the Competition Tribunal act to stop this process of concentration", he said.
Dwindling newsrooms
The size of newsroom staff at the Sun and Province has been cut in half since the early 1990s, Bocking said, leaving approximately 275 journalists now at the two papers.
The cuts, he emphasized, were not exclusively the work of CanWest. A process of downsizing and attrition has reduced the newsroom under Southam, Hollinger and CanWest ownership since the early 1990s, and has been driven by the perceived need in management circles to address the debt created by corporate mergers by reducing payroll costs, he said.
CanWest is a prime example of the process of ownership concentration that concerns Bocking and many other observers of the Canadian media scene.
Since it was founded as Canwest Capital in the early 1970s, the company, controlled by the Asper family, has expanded both nationally and internationally, with 11 major daily papers in Canada, 20 weeklies and TV operations that claim to reach 100 per cent of the Canadian market.
Currently, CanWest is putting the finishing touches on a takeover of Alliance-Atlantis (which has a big share of the cash cow CSI crime show franchise) with financial backing from New York investment giant Goldman Sachs, a deal that many see as problematic in terms of Canadian policy that prohibits off shore control of Canadian media.
All these deals create debt, as the CEP's Bocking points out, and debt creates pressure for changes that may or may not serve the interests of local viewers and readers, let alone local journalists and media workers. That's what's got many observers worried about changes like the work shifting away from the Sun newsroom.
'Competitive journalism' threatened: UBC prof
Beth Haddon is an adjunct professor at the UBC School of Journalism and a veteran of both print and broadcast media. She sees the news of editorial content work being sent out of town by CanWest management as symptomatic of corporate concentration and that, she says, is reason to worry.
"This sounds like more of what comes when a few companies control media right across the country," Haddon told The Tyee. "Despite all that is said about the benefits of what some people call convergence but I call corporate concentration, it is certainly not good for original and competitive journalism. It just doesn't seem to be working out in the way promised by the enthusiasts."
Outsourcing versus local expertise
Penny Gurstein, a UBC professor who studies job outsourcing and the social impact in the workplace and beyond, also is concerned about the effects of concentrated media ownership in Canada.
"I wanted at one point to do a case study of these impacts at the Vancouver Sun," Gurstein told The Tyee, "but management there wasn't willing. The argument being made by the union about how sending their work out of town decreases local voice and input has some merit. As companies get larger, they end up not knowing about local conditions."
Outsourcing is taking some surprising forms in North America's fast changing media landscape. One California online news source, PasadenaNow.com, has hired outsourced journalists from India to monitor Pasadena City Council meetings on the Internet and file city hall coverage from Asia.
On its website, CanWest Global Communications describes itself as "Canada's largest publisher of English language daily newspapers [which] owns, operates and/or holds substantial interests in free-to-air and subscription-based television networks, out-of-home advertising, websites, and radio stations and networks in Canada, New Zealand, Australia, Turkey, Singapore, the United Kingdom and the United States."
Related Tyee stories:
- Sun, Province Dip to 1957 Level
Combined circulation sliding, but is profit margin? - CanWest Targets Ethnic Readers, Produces Gibberish
Automated 'instant translation' yields instant frustration. - How CanWest Helped Elect Campbell and Company
Unlike the dubious 'strike vote' story, a report bad for Libs lay buried until after election day.
![[Tyee]](http://thetyee.cachefly.net/ui/img/ico_fishie.png){kind=small}
- BC snuffs out AirCare test program
- AFN national chief Shawn Atleo to launch re-election bid
- Citizens group releases video to fight undead Bill C-30
- Conservative MP says he might vote against budget, then 'clarifies' his position
- Genetically modified plants won't take root with councillors in Richmond, BC
- Hundreds at Vancouver rally to support Quebec students
- Could Fort Mac become an eco-tourist hotspot?
- Rick Hansen's Man in Motion anniversary tour concludes in Vancouver
- The Gem of Canadian Science that Harper Killed
- Who Mowed Down the Premier?
- Canada's Economy, Deconstructed (by a 12 year-old)
- Death in Remand: a Tyee Inquiry
- Now Is the Time to Talk up Big Ideas
- Sexism Tinges Criticism of Teachers' Job Action
- Bill C-38: the Environmental Destruction Act
- Death In Remand: 'A Gut Feeling'
- Bias in BC's Pesticide Decision? Follow the Bouncing Verbs
- The Ethics of Addiction Studies
- The Gem of Canadian Science that Harper Killed
- Sexism Tinges Criticism of Teachers' Job Action
- Now Is the Time to Talk up Big Ideas
- The Ethics of Addiction Studies
- Bill C-38: the Environmental Destruction Act
- Alberta Fills Pipes with Corrosive Denial
- Bias in BC's Pesticide Decision? Follow the Bouncing Verbs
- How Our Immune Systems Exaggerate Fear
- BC biotech company seeks approval for GM apple
- What's Behind BC's Doors?
- 'The Dictator'
- Death in Remand: Stacked Deck
- 'Moonrise Kingdom'
- From Financial Advisor to Occupier
- Seven Goals to Build the Conservative 'Dream'
- How Our Immune Systems Exaggerate Fear
- Who Mowed Down the Premier?
- Does Simon Fraser University Need a Men's Centre?
- Now Is the Time to Talk up Big Ideas
- Why Blackberry's Embrace of HTML5 Is Good Karma
- Double lung recipient dances on Ellen show
- ISS astronauts grab DragonX space capsule by the tail with Canada Arm
- Metro Vancouver gas prices peak at record levels
- Ottawa posts $9-billion deficit in March despite pledge to avoid spending spree
- BC phases out AirCare to focus on fighting bigger vehicle emissions
- Tsunami senors to be dropped into deep sea off of Vancouver Island
- Student groups file court challenge against Quebec protest law
- ...while on the streets, pirates and ninjas put aside mutual animosity to join student protests
78
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Frank
4 years ago
Things that make you go hmm
I find it interesting that the Right is always breathlessly claiming the great opportunities before us if we would just become more skilled. That Cdn workers will stay a jump ahead by leaving the hands-on work to developing countries while we concentrate on "knowledge-based" work.
Yet much of Canada' job growth demonstrates the opposite, that hands-on jobs are secure and its the "knowledge-based" jobs that are prone to being outsourced to the developing world.
Financial books can be done anywhere in the world, legal and medical opinions can be garnered from anywhere in the world, software writers can be anywhere in the world, even political journalists apparently can be anywhere in the world. But if you want guys to hold a shovel and dig up the tar sands, you have to hire Canadians.
The lesson perhaps is that students should avoid occupations in the "knowledge" sector and instead stick to careers where the competition is more than a few mouse clicks away.
Grumpy
4 years ago
Adios the Sun
The Sun is a garbage paper that has lost all respect. I cancelled my subscription 6 months ago, yet I receive at least 1 phone call a week urging me to renew my subscription. One lady who phoned would not take no for an answer and finally I lost and said it was a "'crap' paper, in the pocket of the BC government and has lost all credibility." Undaunted she continued her spiel!
It is a time to depart and I hope CanWest Global take the hint.
murdock
4 years ago
terrible waste of trees
all 'commercial' or 'avert filled' newspapers.
stop buying them.
ME2
4 years ago
Investomania
And here for all these years I've been told that BC must have more "foreign investment" for us to have jobs and prosper. Now Tom Sandborn tells us that in order to pay off the costs of newspaper "investments", jobs will be lost and with them will go the taxes paid and the money spent in the community.
Geez, we're "investing" our salmon runs away, we're "investing" our streams and rivers away, we've "invested" our forest industry to the bare bones, and now the public forests are opening up for the real estate "investors". And we're all gonna get rich from all this "investment" in the Olympics, too.
Golly gee whiz, ain't it wunnerful how all this Free Enterprise works?
Jeffrey J.
4 years ago
Monopolization at work
This continuing trend of Canadian monopolization of our Fourth Estate is following highly predictable patterns. Mergers driven by desire for more profit; financed by increasing debt; resulting in "rationalizations" and lay offs; followed by drop in quality and relevance. It has always been thus, until and unless the public uses legislative tools to restrict monopolization. Which are very simple and very effective. No rocket science there. Except when your government has lost the concept of public good. As both the BC and Federal leaders have done. All of which is a great reason to turn off your monopolized TV and begin reading the independents. Excellent article Tyee!
relayer
4 years ago
This would matter, if anyone
This would matter, if anyone actually read those rags or watched their pathetic "news" show. Seriously, you might as well tell me that jobs will be lost at the National Enquirer or Entertainment Tonight. The horror, the horror...
TTTT
4 years ago
as much as you'd like
to convince yourselves that no one watches/reads - it really is a silly comment.
Lotsa people read and watch CanWest crap....wishing it away ain't gonna help.
Fiat lux
4 years ago
Neoclassical economics at
Neoclassical economics at work....so what else is new ? This is going to go on and on and increase by the day, until the papers will be written and all office work ill be done in India, or some other "economically competitive" area
The interesting part is that these so called professional writers and unions, still didn't wake up to the sordid fact of this crap being taught in our universities as a science, then inform the public.
How about the Tyee waking up and starting the avalanche rolling ?
Or is it too much to ask to smell the rot and daring to report this simple and well documented fraud for the enslavement of humanity?
Ed Deak, Big Lake.
Working Memory
4 years ago
One step at a time
Each time something like this happens it becomes easier to understand why the 2010 Olympics is so important to CanWest.
The money they will receive over the next couple of years in their now official capacity as "Olympics Booster" will come in handy to help keep them afloat until they can regroup and figure out how to keep moving forward.
It's not a coincidence that recently they have been running a number of stories regarding how important the internet is to our community. As usual though, they are a few years late and trail the crowd instead of leading it.
Great article Tom.
southdeltawalker
4 years ago
News Flash- Fennie leaves Fennies
Yes it true Rob Fennie has left Fennies/Lumiere.
This story of "famous" chef Rob Fennie leaving these restaurants has recieved extensive coverage in the weekend "Sun" and on the front page of today's "Sun". Big news!
Today's front page story reported that: the "leek puree looked dull",
"the "truffle foam" just didn't work
and the "pan fired gnocci...looked more rustic than elegant"..horrors!
With good investigative reporting a thing of the past in the "Sun" newsroom and layoff's looming, fluff pieces reporting on the rich and famous is all that will be left.
Fiat lux
4 years ago
How about the wonderful
How about the wonderful series last week on the TV by Brian Coxford on how everything is OK, living standards are up. After all even the Fraser Inst. and Jim Pattison declared that future generations will have unlimited opportunities, and they know the facts and are always right ? Right ?
Ed Deak.
alive
4 years ago
1984
What springs to my mind is that we now will see everything edited from a Toronto perspective, much like the CBC has many news stories that clearly are not based on local input.
Of course it will be easier for "Big Brother" to control our knowledge of the world, if he sits on all the decisions in one place!
Glen Murtz
4 years ago
Hands On Jobs more "Safe"? Don't be so sure...
Frank Says:
At least until politicians change immigration and visa rules to benefit companies who donate properly - Canada Line anyone?
James Burns
4 years ago
Dehumanizing work
No you don't, you can import temporary workers from poverty stricken countries to work cheaply, with no protections, because they aren't citizens. That's been happening all over Canada for a long time now, particularly here in Vancouver, with the construction of all the real estate and of RAV. Even then, however, there has been a shortage.
The hardest people to offshore are those that need to be present to be effective, and are highly trained. Teachers, physicians, and most of the trades. Of course all of these can be substituted by temporary imported labour, like the aforementioned tar sands workers. They usually aren't as effective as locals, but they can do the job. For example, we could easily solve our doctor shortage in this country by bringing in Cuban doctors who would give patients far more personalized care. The problem is that the more elite professional associations, like those of physicians and lawyers prevent any real competition. Yet those very same professions are usually comprised of the people most in favor of so-called "deregulated" free markets. Free that is, as long as it doesn't apply to them.
southdeltawalker
4 years ago
Big Fennie Scoop!
Since my last posting "Fennie leaves Fennie's", I have it on good authority that the "Sun" is busy investigating the uncertain future of Fennie's restaurant's 'famous' $12 hot dog, the "Fennie's Weinie".
This front page story will be called "Fennie's Weinie Bites The Dust".
Stay tuned as this story breaks.
BC Mary
4 years ago
CanWest confusion is visible in Gangland Shooting
Interesting little collision of facts, fears, and newz over the weekend ...
Friday, the "Top cop" in Vancouver is assuring everybody that generally speaking the citizens have little to fear ...
On Saturday, nothing more about organized crime. But unfortunately, a Shaughnessy resident is lying dead in front of his multi-million $ mansion, his body riddled with bullets. It is presented as a great mystery. The victim is "not known to police".
Sunday, The Province has a different point of view as the story begins to unfold.
Not until Monday did all the big West Coast dailies begin to tell the story. And believe me, it's Organized Crime. The murder victim not only has a name, but also some hotshot status in gangland history as one of the top members of the notorious, most-feared "Big Circle Gang" ...
I am certainly not advocating further integration of the CanWest media. But this sure looks to me as if the CanWest newsrooms are stumbling, scrambling, and falling down in confusion even on this one story of major public concern.
Read more http://bctrialofbasi-virk.blogspot.com
tricia58
4 years ago
Outsourcing
Yup does not surprise me. Understanding the term "Neo-Liberalism" explains it to me. The gap between rich and poor will keep growing. The reason for outsourcing is cheaper wages. That means the poor population grows and middle class disappears.
Busting unions is a big part of the plan. Maybe we need to look at England and what they went through with Thatcher. It is happening here. We need to unite and let governments and big business know we will not accept it.
TTTT
4 years ago
CanWest new profits rise to $197 million
http://www.marketingmag.ca/daily/20071105/national3.html
Excerpt:
CanWest new profits rise to $197 million
CanWest Global Communications Corp. reported higher fourth quarter profits and revenues Friday as the company benefited from a special gain on the sale of its New Zealand and Canadian radio properties and continued cost cutting and ratings increases that helped boost its television profits.
....
Skywalker
4 years ago
Stop wishing just change sources.
Don't buy their useless rags, ignore their advertisers, it just encourages them. If anyone today wants to know what is happening in the world that is of any consequence, the BC media is the last place to look. If you want to know about the latest celebrity scandal then you can get that from the CanWest group. A public stuffed with the latest titillating details about a celebrity won't have enough time left to deal with hard truthful news.
Van Isle
4 years ago
With corruption and
With corruption and centralized planning it'll all come tumbling down around their ears, it just a matter of when. Other words for 'success' is 'delayed failure'. If I held any of their stock I'd be flogging it as fast as I could.
Working Memory
4 years ago
Good stuff Mary
I just read the info on your blog Mary.
It boggles the mind to try and understand why there is such discrepancy.
It's actually starting to get a little scary.
Good work as usual.
IAMC
4 years ago
Liberal MSM
I get a kick out of the comments that paint MSM (mainstream media ) as being conservative in nature.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
92% of Washington political reporters voted for Wild Bill Clinton.
But that's okay. The free market is sorting everything out.
Newspapers like The New York Times, The Boston Globe and all the other newspapers, are experiencing a dramatic decline in readership.
MSM television CBS,NBC,CNN,ABC are floundering in their ratings.
These useless journalists, that populate our print media, are finally getting what's coming to them.
How could it be worse?
These journalists are finally being exposed for the lazy, unimaginative. liberal hacks that they are.
So sorry, see you later.
ME2
4 years ago
Opportunity knocks, Ronnnie
There could be a future for you in writing fiction.
Frank
4 years ago
Ron : he who was banned
We already had this conversation last week Ron, glad you decided to tune in though.
Change your 5th word from the end to "conservative" and you won't get an argument.
IAMC
4 years ago
Fifth word from last
But Frank, that would make me you.
What would be the point of that?
But if you think these journalists are conservative, then you are truly delusional.
You can't be serious, when actual studies have proven that these journalists are voting and donating the liberals by such a huge majority, that it's impossible to deny.
Have you got any statistical information regarding support and donations by journalists, editors and media types in general, for conservative groups?
I know that no such information exists.
The cat's out of the bag.
Deny it if it makes you feel warm and fuzzy.
Frank
4 years ago
Ron
Besides being healthier, better looking and invited to more parties?
Guess you missed the fact that the premier's brother writes an "economics" column for the province's biggest paper? Or how ex-Fraser Inst guys like Fazil Mihlar write regular editorials and columns? Or why the Sun has endorsed whoever ran against the NDP in every modern election except in the aftermath of Bill Van der Zalm? Ever check the political leanings of the Sun's last couple of owners? Do you think Conrad Black was a lefty? How about Leonard Asper? Do you think he votes NDP? Do you think the people making the hiring decisions are bringing on board people whose views they don't like? Is the sky blue in your world?
Perhaps you've been listening to Rush 24/7 and missed the lineup on BC's CKNW? Funny how ex-Socreds and Liberals are brought on board but not NDPers eh?
Any time you want to get together and compare media attention (say column inches and radio airtime?) of the fast ferries with the convention centre let me know, k?
G West
4 years ago
actual studies????
You mean the ones done by Ann Coulter, Bernard Goldberg, Sean Hannity, and Bill O’Reilly?
Denying anything those 4 horseMEN of the apocalypse isn't even worth the effort Ron...you're going to have to some up with something a lot more convincing that that.
And, since you seem to prefer American examples to Canadian ones...why is that anyway Ron?...I'd like to introduce you to some pretty successful media operations that have a huge bias for the other side - your side.
Fox News, the Wall Street Journal, the Washington Times, the New York Post, the American Spectator, the Weekly Standard, the New York Sun, the National Review and
Commentary.
I think the myth of liberal bias is just an old Republican trick Ron - with about as much substance and credibility as Rush Limbaugh's war on drugs.
I think you should start again Ron - this campaign is a non starter.
SharingIsGood
4 years ago
Canwest-Global
It is beyond me how an educated citizenry can put up with the horrific reporting and now outsourcing of our dollars to somewhere else. They act like they don't know where their advertisers get their money from in the first place. I have no respect for just about anyone connected with the main stream media. I wish all of their employees would take out loans, quit their jobs and form their own independent newpaper and TV station. Those that continue to spew only the hardline neoconservative/fascist dogma could be fired for cause.
If they really wanted to sell newspapers - boost readership, they would report both sides of every story, and they would do it in such a way that we can see the shallowness of worthless politicians when they are being such. Why don't they hold this government's feet to the fire on page one like they did with the last government? Scandal after scandal, and increased impediments to the workings of the government on a daily basis and the Canwest-Global does nothing but post a few collumns that only some people read!
Lilly-livered reporting and publishing! I hope "Rosebud" and images of Citizen Cane fills their restless sleep. I hope they get ulcers and heart disease over worrying about their money and their power.
marshallrmb
4 years ago
outsourcing
Well, finally the tables have turned on the editorial prima donas...maybe if they had done a little investigative journalism, a lose use of the word "journalism" as most are just cookie cutter variety, work when companies like Quebecor were outsourcing everything and if they had shown some compassion and support for the production departments etc, the world of the newspaper industry might just be a different and better place to be...the editorial groups sat back and watched, even cheered, the closure of most of the production facilities throughout Canada and did nothing...so boys, it is your turn so enjoy.
ubiquitous
4 years ago
ron/iamc is right
Remember folks, in ron's world , the media is liberal - most msm editors wouldn't print some of ron's views that he's expressed in the past, you know, like the nuking of iraq, total assimilation of first nations, privatization of absolutely everything...Even the msm have some boundaries.
happy
4 years ago
Thats a shame
That Canwest media can't be taken seriously. Theres a lovely article in todays Province critical of Campbell that most on this thread would get themselves all hot and horny over as more proof that Campbell is arrogant,shifty and incompetent. But, since that source has been declared Right Wing Propoganda its off limits for critique here. No cherry picking people, can't have it both ways
Frank
4 years ago
Wow
You mean there was actually an article critical of Campbell in the Sun? Thanks for reporting it happy, someone at the Sun should write down the date so that when they call asking me to subscribe they can tell me they actually printed an anti-Campbell article back on Nov 6, 2007.
I should also tell Ron that I've even heard there is actually an article printed in America once a year that supports the presidency. Guess that means he can't whine about socialist propaganda from the MSM anymore.
G West
4 years ago
I thought I already dealt with that happy
This has to be the second or even third one in a series...what hypocrisy on the part of Canwest management.
Or does it just mean that things have gotten SO BAD that even the Sun can't ignore it any longer.
I hope you noticed Campbell's reference in the House yesterday to shrink wrapped ferries in Burrard Inlet. You'll remember why that shouldn't be a big surprise now won't you?
happy
4 years ago
So what if you did
Are you the final authority on what I, or others might discuss? Is your opinion the only one that counts? Am I just to STF up to please you. As for the shrink wrapped ferries thats not a surprise to anyone. There they sit, not a buyer in sight at any price.
G West
4 years ago
Not at all
Just don't pretend you're into fair comment.
The point is that Campbell didn't once actually respond to a single question about the convention centre over-runs. And he used the ferries in exactly the way I told you he would a month or so ago.
Remember.
You see, happy, he argues exactly the same way you do - rather than dealing with his own glaring mistakes and inconsistencies he constantly tries to shift things onto his interlocutor and back into the past. When my kids behave that way I humour them, they're young - when adults behave that way I call them on it.
If you want a real discussion that's a different matter: For the moment that is evidently not what you're interested in doing.
As far as stopping you, wouldn’t even try. In fact I’d encourage you to keep it up because there are a whole lot of people who read this stuff and never comment.
Defending your point of view rationally would make a much better case for your beliefs…but I’m just as happy to have you continue along in the usual manner. It makes my job that much easier.
happy
4 years ago
It was Fair Comment
I merely tried to point out that the Province (and Sun) will print articles critical of the government, as practically everybody here swears they won't. Is that not a fair comment? I didn't bring up anything from the past in my comment. Where do you get that from? The past?
Frank
4 years ago
Circulation
Pacific Press attacked the NDP for 10 years. One so-called "scandal" after another.
In the past 6 years, they've supported the Libs. Even things like Basi-Virk have had less column inches than Glen Clark's deck.
In response their circulation numbers have declined by the thousands in spite of the fact that the population has grown considerably. Many have posted on the Tyee that they are ex-Sun and ex-Province readers, but have cancelled their subscriptions because of the bias.
The Sun and Province, refusing to believe it could be their ideology and blatant overboard support of Campbell that could be behind their rapidly falling circulation numbers instead blame the internet.
Right, whatever.
G West
4 years ago
This:
Is your idea of 'fair comment'?
happy
4 years ago
Yes it is
I/m not getting sucked into another endless GWest debate where all we do is go round and round. I made my point, you made yours. Others can weigh in if they wish. Agree to disagree and see you next time.
snert
4 years ago
If you say so. Frank
You trend spotter, you.
Frank
4 years ago
Charles "snert" Darwin
Hey, its the guy who says loss of species is a good thing because it allows all those new species to take off.
SharingIsGood
4 years ago
BC Liberal Scandals
BC Rail:
* the lie that it would not be sold;
* the way it was sold;
* inflated expenses attributed to sale;
* though profitable, it was sold anyhow;
* pretense that the land is leased(999 yrs)
* Basi and Virk hand-picked;
* Stonewally;
* Falcon's disappearance;
* Taxpayer money for obfuscating kawyers;
* Campbell's no comments.
Convention Center:
* $388 million over budget and counting;
* promised as a supreme example of how to complete a budget on time and on budget;
* poorly managed by Premiere's hand-picked inexperienced, go to guy, Dobell;
Car Booster seats:
* paid fr by province: only available at Liberal MLA offices;
Promise of accountable open government:
* blacking out of information in reports that the public deserves to know about child abuse and the failure of this government to address it;
* Stonewally
* Shortening of question period
* Dobell working to lobby the Premiere while paid by the Premiere
* Paid "media monitors"
Shoddy accounting/accountability practices:
*Claims that public health care will bankrupt system (as created by Liberals) while government hauls in huge surplus that is not spent on Health.
*Huge bonuses for execs of ICBC when good winter weather caused profits to rise.
Health Care:
* Closing rural facilities;
* Privatizing and 3Ps;
* Breaking UN agreements on treatment of workers;
* Tearing up legal contracts with public health employees;
* Contravening the Charter of Rights;
* Closing public senior's facilities and moving them to private facilities away from their friends and loved ones
Increases of poverty and homelessnes during world and Canadian economic upswing - while Liberals vote themselves a huge raise.
SharingIsGood
4 years ago
Liberal scandals continued
Transportation:
* No toll for sea to sky highway for Whistlerites
* Continued toll on Coquihalla when Liberals memoaned NDP keeping the Toll
* Attempt to sell Coquihalla when promised otherwise during campaign.
* Twinning Port Mann Bridge before designing light rail service.
* Ludicrosity of the RAV line and the toll cut and cover has placed on the life's work of many business people along the way.
* Interior highways in the worst shape in memory of most people.
Education:
* The obvious failure of Bill 33 and the Liberals repeated stance that it is working.
* Tearing up contracts and contravening the UN...etc. There is more
Elections:
* Adding new "pro-Liberal" seats
* Huge contributions by corporations and wealthy owners of multinational stock.
Addictions and counselling Issues:
* Hawaii
* Increasing venues and hours of alcohol distribution
* Increasing VDTs and other forms of gambling
* Lottery ticket scandal
* Privatizing of couselling serves
* Reducing services for victims of sexual abuse
* reduction of probation services
* Doubling of marijuana cultivation
Premier congratulating self "green government" in a town where a behive burner continues to belch out smoke (and will continue to do so), despite its residents top on the list for lung disease.
Forestry:
* Firing of forestry workers rather than send them out to clean up underbrush when told that interface fires could be an issue. Huge interface fires followed.
* Selling off of whole logs from Pacific Coast forests while mills were forced to close down for lack of timber, and while beetle wood in the Interior is going unused/uncut.
Whistler sliding center for more than $100 milllion while no increase in quarters for homeless.
$6.50 per hour training wage! $8 minimum wage while premier voted himself raise of 56% plus increased housing allowances for MLAs.
Mining Issues...
There is lots more, I just grew weary of the heavy load. Listing these things is kind of like Frodo's having to carry the ring.
SharingIsGood
4 years ago
Liberal Scandals - Happy
Happy said:
Your comment is fair though barely, Happy. What the posters here often talk about is the complete lack of equality in the reporting of the MSM. They are heavily slanted. If I recall correctly, Conrad Black would not let positive things be printed about the NDP in his papers. Certainly, Canwest has been giving us more of the same philosophy: http://www.canadians.org/archive/documents/press_freedom.pdf
Yes, there is the occasional negative article about the Liberals, but it is not six months of front page news about a deck that someone built for his neighbour, something I have done myself for free on more than one occasion. To a builder, a deck is not a big deal, as long as the materials are paid for by someone else, and Clark bought his own materials.
I've listed just some of the huge leadership mistakes and outright scandals that this government has been involved in. This news rarely hits the front page - its often not seen until pg. 12 or 14 of the Sun. Also, most bad news is released on Friday afternoon and it is forgotten in the Press by Monday.
Other Scandal topics:
Outsourcing private medical information of British Columbians to companies from the US.
Sending ferries to be built in Germany rather than having our people build them here.
BC Hydro privatization.
BC Gas privatization.
Graham Bruce: former MLA and paid lobbiest.
Voter cotract scandal
I'm sure if you google: scandal liberal and any of several topics i have provided, you may find scandals that Canwest is giving cursory once overs. Often when they report a scandal, they rehash the BC Ferries. The ferries scandal is now dwarfed by the huge convention Centre and BC Rail.
snert
4 years ago
Don't leave your tag team partner out, now.
Stick to the topic.
Frank
4 years ago
snert
Aw, I was hoping you were going to start naming all the new creatures in your neighbourhood.
kootcoot
4 years ago
SharingIsGood
Good effort, SIG, but it's almost impossible to list the transgressions of this government against the interests of the people of BC. Maybe Canned Waste should use that as an excuse for their paucity of coverage.
Imagined future Quote from Pointy (managing editor of the Sun):
I'll add:
1. Doug Walls and the myriad scams that he somehow comes up with - but hey family matters - family values........see next example
2. Couples married 50 years virtually sentenced to separate death apart within days of "forcible" separation. (Inferior Health Authority)
3. The whole Inferior Health Authority and their misplaced priorities, including
...loss of only geriatric specialist in the region with the highest proportion of seniors in Canada (last census), Kelowna.
4. giveaway of Interior Ferries
5. did you even mention the release of ALR and TFL lands without either consultation and or due process?
6. The sleazy attempt to accomodate a friend of government and destroy part of Grohman Narrows Park just outside of Nelson
7. The virtually "secret" sell off of water rights on most creeks large enough to generate a milliwatt
8. The unconciencable abrogation of local input and even minimal local control over local development
We got rid of Air Blair in my neck of the woods, it's time for the rest of you to do your part.
snert
4 years ago
So, Frank
Just how many people on Tyee have said they were ex Sun/Province readers. What is the actual percentage of lost print based subscriptions that reflect this trend? How many subscriptions in total have been lost to shoddy (in your opinion) journalism?
SharingIsGood
4 years ago
thanks kootcoot - any others?
Thanks for carying the ring a bit further, Kootcoot, I know that it is an evil thing. Perhaps someone else can add to the list of Liberal scandals, carry the ring a bit further for us. If someone would collect them all, hell, I'd even spend some money to help pay for a full page ad to publish them in the Sun - of all places. Of couse, we'd have to keep the text really small to accomodate even a cursory list.
How could I have forgotten allowing moore fish farms to operate even after the solid research done on the devastating effects sea lice and the documented destruction of European rivers? The dead zones under the net pens are unforgiveable.
Raw sewage is pumped into our tidal waterways - still.
And, how about that granting of a contract to dredge gravel out of the spawning beds of the pink salmon? Now that was a doozey! What was it, 3 million pink salmon killed? That should have been front page news for weeks on end. Where was our Ministry of Land Air and Water in all of that?
There is more - heaps... but it is time for me to pass off the ring - I grow weak just thinking about it.
kootcoot
4 years ago
Coulda Fooled Me!
SIG, We actually have a Ministry of Land, Air and Water?
Or is the complete title the Ministry of Giving Away Land, Hot Air and Selling Water to Entrepreneurs and America?
Frank
4 years ago
snert
Off the top of my head I'm going to guess somewhere around 20.
They've lost over 12% of their readership have they not? Levels now around what they were in the 50's in spite of the population tripling?
I would guess most of them. What's your guess?
SharingIsGood
4 years ago
changed the name back
Good question, Kootcoot! You got me wondering if they had changed the name again - not that I expect the service to be any better. Evidently, they have changed the name back to Ministry of Environment. That is one of the best things I have seen this government do. It makes it easier for the average person to find.
http://www.gov.bc.ca/env/
Stump
4 years ago
C eh N eh D eh
Hi IAMC:
Can you remind your handlers that this is a Canadian website and your made-up factoids should have a CDN slant to them?
Awesome. Thanks big fella.
snert
4 years ago
None
Inadequate journalism, mostly. Free local rags and the internet tend to make both papers irrelevant for the most part except for the odd 'in depth report'. Remember that BC is probably in the vanguard of change as far as adopting new technology is concerned.
Then again some people just want to save trees or should I say Spotted Owl homes.
Frank
4 years ago
snert
But the Sun was losing readers even in the 90's, back when we were using Compuserve. That's why they brought in Cruickshanks from the Globe wasn't it?
I think the Sun's problems predate the internet,
snert
4 years ago
Probably
since before they went to a morning paper. The Sun is still the more interesting. The Province takes less time to read.
G West
4 years ago
You must be joking snert
If you'd ever lived anywhere else you wouldn't make that statement. BC is without doubt the most backward province in Canada. Something about the mountains I guess.
snert
4 years ago
No I'm not.
We're not Japan or S Korea but I think we hold our own. Specify where we don't please.
G West
4 years ago
Yes you are snert
WE don't hold our own against either Ontario or Quebec, Alberta or Saskatchewan and, in some areas Manitoba.
You need to get out more. Things billed as new and cutting edge here in BC have been in common usage for up to 10 years in many other parts of Canada.
Time to move around a little and check out some of the 'new' species in the rest of Canada.
Stump
4 years ago
Lefty slant in the USA
-------------------------------
MSNBC Increasingly Leaning Left
-------------------------------
Riding a ratings wave from "Countdown With Keith Olbermann," a program
that takes strong issue with the Bush administration, MSNBC is
increasingly seeking to showcase its nighttime lineup as a welcome
haven for viewers of a similar mind. Lest there be any doubt that the
cable channel believes there is ratings gold in shows that criticize
the administration with the same vigor with which Fox News's hosts
often champion it, two NBC executives acknowledged yesterday that they
were talking to Rosie O'Donnell about a prime-time show on MSNBC. But
even without Ms. O'Donnell, MSNBC already presents a three-hour block
of nighttime talk - Chris Matthews's "Hardball" at 7, Mr. Olbermann at
8, and "Live With Dan Abrams" at 9 - in which the White House takes a
regular beating. The one early-evening program on MSNBC that is often
most sympathetic to the administration, "Tucker" with Tucker Carlson
at 6 p.m., is in real danger of being canceled, said one NBC
executive, who, like those who spoke of Ms. O'Donnell, would do so
only on condition of anonymity. Having a prime-time lineup that tilts
ever more demonstrably to the left could be risky for General
Electric, MSNBC's parent company, which is subject to legislation and
regulation far afield of the cable landscape. Officials at MSNBC
emphasize that they never set out to create a liberal version of Fox
News. (Jacques Steinberg
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/06/business/media/06msnb.html 11/6/07)
Frank
4 years ago
snert
If the comparison is between the Sun and the Province, then sure, I'll take the Sun. And if its between the Sun and the National Post I'll take the Sun too.
But there was a time when, in my opinion, that Pacific Press had a better balance. I could read right-wing opinions like Trevor Lautens but there were also those of a more lefty bent like Lyn Cockburn and Crawford Kilian etc. I also thought the Sun had a good book review section going at one time.
But one by one the voices I preferred disappeared from those papers and were replaced by people who seemed to have "Fraser Institute" in their resume.
Besides the constant attacks on the NDP, the last straw for me was when they hired Michael Campbell. His columns, like his radio show, were constantly political in nature. So I dropped my subscription.
CKNW was already pretty right-wing, voice of the Social Credit party, but just became more so. So I eventually stopped listening to it except for Dan Russel's Sportstalk.
Now I don't claim there isn't a single decent journalist at the Sun and Province. I like Paul Willcocks and on most days Vaughn Palmer. And I used to like reading David Bains. But the wheat to chaff ratio is just not favourable enough to renew my sub. And its not like I'm that hard to please, I prefer to support the local guy in everything including newspapers so I'm more than happy to meet them part way.
As I said before there's probably around 20 or so people who have said on here they can no longer stomach either the Sun or the Province. And with the falling circulation numbers in spite of a growing population it seemed to me that I wasn't the only one that dropped the Sun due to either the attacks on the NDP or the flag waving for the Libs.
Nor do I deny that the internet makes that an easier decision now than it was in the 90's.
Your thoughts?
Watermelon
4 years ago
Graham's comments
What Patricia Graham didn't mention is that when TV Times listings were outsourced to an American firm in New York, the quality of the product plummeted and several newspapers in the chain saw their Saturday circulation drop off dramatically. The centralization of those listings marked the beginning of the slide in circulation. People who were buying the Saturday paper specifically for the TV Times simply cancelled their papers. Today, in its present format, the grid-style listings are almost unreadable.
CanWest just doesn't get it. Reduce the quality of the product, and people will stop reading it. Sounds like Business 101 to me. They treat readers with contempt, and wonder why circulation is dropping.
It's easy for them to blame the Internet, but it isn't the Internet's fault. It's a lack of vision on CanWest's part. They will never be able to compete with the likes of Google and Yahoo. They should be working on making their printed products better, not worse.
In the meantime, they are opening themselves up to competition as more and more people grow disenchanted with their papers. Eventually, someone is going to twig to that and start putting out papers in markets where CanWest thinks it's safe. It's no wonder projections for CanWest's stock were reduced recently to a range of $5 to $12. Looks like a penny stock in the making to me.
Meanwhile, I'll get my news from Canadian Press and Associated Press free on my Yahoo home page.
Watermelon
4 years ago
Seasons greetings to the Aspers
As the Aspers throw people out into the street in the name of the almighty buck during this holiday season, they might do well to tune in to an old Christmas classic penned by the immortal Charles Dickens, A Christmas Carol:
From an article by Ingrid Van Mater:
One of the most moving statements in this Christmas tale is by Marley's Ghost when despairing over "life's opportunities misused." Scrooge, trembling with fear and beginning to share in Marley's guilt, says: "But you were always a good man of business, Jacob." Upon which the Ghost cried out in anguish:
Business! Mankind was my business. The common welfare was my business; charity, mercy, forbearance, and benevolence, were all my business. The dealings of my trade were but a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of my business!
kootcoot
4 years ago
Watermelon + today's sequel
Watermelon, your comments regarding the TV listings are right on. Of course if you prefer the Sun as the lesser evil (as I do) that means the Friday edition. I prefer to watch targeted Tee Vee when I watch it at all, rather than watching whatever is on or I can click to. I particularly resented the way the Sun made the change, as far as I could tell there was no notice, the listings just disappeared for a few weeks and then the diminished version of listings appeared one Friday - of course the elevated Friday Price remained the same the whole time, in spite of the only justification for an increased price for the Friday Sun was/is the listings.
If you check today's front page (of the Tyee) you will see the next article in this series, the other shoe has dropped in the Canned Waste Newsroom.
kootcoot
4 years ago
Please Delete
Mods - Please delete this and Watermelon +
today's sequel V. 1.0 - accidental posting before finished, I guess.
snert
4 years ago
G West
Name them please or are these just the things that go better with coke.
G West
4 years ago
Do your own research snert
You could start with the telecommunications industry - Bell (Ontario and Quebec), Manitoba Telephone and Sasktel had extensive fibre-optic networks in place and with all the necessary solid-state switching for years before BC Tel even starting to install their network.
Like I said, you need to get out more.
snert
4 years ago
Frank
The single biggest problem I have with both Vancouver papers is that most of their stories are stale. I find that internet based news sources are more up to date on breaking news. This occasionally includes the local rags websites as well. On occasion I run across stories that are over a week old before they've hit the paper.
I guess another way to put it is that both the Sun and Province no longer deliver the news in a timely fashion, at least to meet my needs.
I have a couple of favourite on line sites and subscribe to several e-mail summaries. I've tried RSS feeds but find they provide a bit too much news.
I also subscribe to Google news alerts on topics of interest. This service is really an eye opener because you can wind up following links to almost any corner of the world.
I do not read the sports page nor advertisements so that makes the Province a 15 min read on weekdays and 16 on Sundays. The Sun is better but not by a whole hell of a lot.
When I got my first computer 8 yrs ago I decided to embrace the technology and use it where ever possible. Newspapers are now more or less redundant in my life and it has nothing to do with the quality of the journalism.
Frank
4 years ago
snert
I understand what you mean about news itself. The internet is obviously faster.
But I don't look to newspapers for news anymore, I look to them more for analysis or just sober second thoughts. Stuff you don't get in a Yahoo blurb from Canadian Press.
Unfortunately that's the area most prone to ideology. Again, I don't mind reading Michael Campbell and others if there's voices from my side too.
Its my opinion that a newspaper should generally reflect a society's views and I see the Sun and Province choosing to only reflect part of that nowadays.
Perhaps the days of a newspaper delivering actual news is past, but I think there is still a market for investigative journalism and analysis which I think explains the rise of the "bloggers".
I would hate to see the day we all get our analysis from our own favoured list of bloggers. I would rather that be in addition to writers of record so to speak that would provide a common touchstone. And that's where I think a good middle of the road paper would still do well in the days of the internet.
I might be wrong.
snert
4 years ago
G West Put up or shut up.
You don't get off that easy.
So telecommunications in a province that is all mountains is maybe, maybe 1 item. That's a province, BTW where the publicly owned railway was a pioneer in microwave communications networks.
Funny thing is the phones always worked, at least mine did.
You're expecting me to research something I don't believe exists, nice try.
G West
4 years ago
Not interested snert
There are at least 10 items in the construction field that didn't find their way here for several years after they were in common use in central Canada. Also in technical medical fields, diagnostics, computer controlled environments, sewage treatment, road design, traffic control and other areas just too numerous to mention
Like I said, do your own research
snert
4 years ago
Figures
A classic G West cop out.
And I suppose nothing ever went the other way?
G West
4 years ago
Not Much!
BC used to do some innovation in Forestry and lumber manufacturing, but not for about 25 years. Harmac was a cutting edge mill in those days - now they can't even sell enough product to pay their energy costs.
You need to get out more - those mountains are blocking your view of the real world snert.
snert
4 years ago
You're right.
Advanced air terminal management and deep water diving equipment don't count. Interior saw mills are some of the most efficient on the planet.
Been on the other side of the mountains. Glad they are there. I don't think we've missed out on anything.
We could certainly live without automated toll collectors.
G West
4 years ago
Would that be the advanced
Would that be the advanced air terminal management that allowed a non-English speaking immigrant to spend the better part of a day wandering aimlessly through the Vancouver International terminal while the staff there fecklessly told his mother to go home?
Phil Nuytten is the genuine article though.
The fact you dismiss the rest of Canada - where much of the good stuff we eventually get to have out here comes from - is pretty sad though.
snert
4 years ago
You dismiss BC
I dismiss the ROC. What's your point?
G West
4 years ago
I don't dismiss BC
But I don't wear rose coloured glasses when I think about it either.
You have to actually spend some considerable time in the ROC to actually understand, appreciate and lose your prejudices about it.
By dismissing 80% or so of the country you lose a lot.
This is, as I said when you made your outrageous claim at the beginning of this exchange, ridiculous.
However, what's more ridiculous is the fact that I've once again wasted 5 minutes of my life on something so utterly trivial as reacting to 'anything' you ever write.
It's a masochistic act and I won't do it again - provoke as you will.
snert
4 years ago
You keep saying that.
It speaks volumes, tomes even.
You were the one that jumped in. :>) Don't be too hard on yourself,now. You might destroy that thin veneer you call an ego.