Warning: Sham Democracy Ahead

As western society moves ever further away from democratic principles, we are seeing a widening gap between what citizens want and what elite governments give them. It is thus imperative that members of the non-ellite speak out, discuss and organize to retain the last vestiges of our once great societies. The Tyee is a very good example of the continued use of our democratic freedoms. And all of its readers are another. Great article about one of the most critical issues in the western world today!

It is all numbers.

We will run our of soldiers long before the Taliban runs out of fanatics.

historical polls

IAMC, you are mostly correct, however there are records that can reflect those decisions:

nothing taken in '44 would have made any sense, but '39-41 does:

showing that 3-1 of the rep's agreed with doing something to help.

The desire to move 'towards active war' was not present in as much veracity with a 13 vote margin, the Neutrality Act was amended, but it was not a 'slam dunk'.

what? you are speaking of 'revisionist history?'

ok so lies, damn lies and statistics

what century are you in?

ahem, I was polled.
while I know you do not like it, guess what I am a voter.

It is a 'snapshot' of the views of the 'people' something that in our 'representative democracy' does not happen enough.

Umslopogaas, you have hit

Umslopogaas, you have hit the nail exactly on the head; the Taliban will never give up until every last one of them is dead and the only way to get rid of them would be akin the the Boer War where the British invented the concentration camp and put every single Boer family in them so the fighters had no support and could be hunted down.

I doubt any western democracy had the stomach for that.

IAMC

"So , how can we view this polling information, in any kind of historical perspective?"

Did the article try to do this? What is wrong in trying to figure what the people want to do today? Surely you aren't suggesting that we should live in a dictatorship.

War spending

Harper has already managed to dispose of $22 billion on new military spending on tanks, unmanned drones, heavy lift aircraft and frigates. Enough equipment for two armies, one general said, so I guess we'll have to have another army to go with it. And let's not forget the service contracts - billions more.

The frigates, of course, are useless in the north, where seasoned circumpolar types call them slushbreakers. Very handy in the Persian Gulf, though, where we'll be protecting Canada's north by protecting American aircraft carriers.

And what, may I ask, do we need with a rapid reaction force to be based in Quebec? More stuff, more fuel, sitting around waiting for something to happen. It seems a shame to have all that stuff around and not use it, doesn't it?

And reopening the military college in St-Jean-sur-Richelieu? Good move (not).

Oh dear me.

Trust the IAMC people to demand a poll to their satisfaction when it suits them. Almost every right wing government decision is not based on any (repeat any) consideration of what the general mood of the population is at the time. Harper know that Canadians do not support the American adventure in Iraq and they also know that Afghanistan is a mess started but not finished by the George W.. The sooner our boys are not picking George W. irons out of the fire the happier we will all be.

Have the terrorists been stopped? No. They are regrouping and are more entrenched. Are we more secure in our own country? No. Just see how long it takes to get a passport. Or see how long it takes to get through airport security.

Harper's trip to South America is just a diversion to take our minds off his failure at home. I'm even ready to have the liberals back and that is saying something.

The Liberals back

That would be something since they put us in Afghanistan and are the ones responsible for balancing the budget on the backs of the poor.

Working Man

My uncle was a bugler boy at Ladysmith and I have always admired the Boers for their courage to stand against the might of the Empire.

It took the British more men to defeat the Boers than it took them to defeat Napoleon. The Boers had a small volunteer army, probably only around 2000 men towards the end, who fought valiantly to defend their way of life. If the British had not fought the Boers and learned how to fight a modern war, they would have probably lost the First World War.

Most people would be surprised that the British deserve credit for the invention of the concentration camp. The Afrikaners may never forgive them for inventing it.

Initially, if it were up to me, I would have left Afghanistan to its own devices but we are up to our necks now. If we leave we will see a resurgent Taliban exact a hideous revenge on our Afghani allies. The alternatives are: to offer all our allies a place in the West, abandon them to their fate, or win the war.

We cannot win this with the level of commitment we are prepared to give to it. The Liberals got us in to this mess and the Conservatives need to get us out of it.

Harper can give our troops the best equipment in the world (and I applaud him for at least trying to provide our people with the tools to do the job) but this is not a place for Canadians to be. We are acting like cultural missionaries and we need to quit thinking that we have all the answers.

Afghanistan war

Well, I guess people like to have their family members dying for another men enrichment opportunities.
Let see:
1 - This year 18 workers died in BC;
2 - I have lost the count of how many Canadian Soldiers have died for nothing in Afghanistan.
3 - I see very small number of people on the streets demanding that the troops return home.
6 - In BC the attorney general does not find in the public interest to prosecute the responsible supervisor/owner of a company for the death of a worker.
5 -I don't see the federal Conservatives or the Liberals descending on the pools.
6 - I also don't see the provincial Liberals going down on the pools.

Conclusion:
Workers are expendable. (Soldiers are workers too)
No one care for the plight of workers, even workers themselves and their families.

Afghanistan killing fields will continue and so will the number of BC workers dying for a living.
Has anyone seeing an in-depth story on the :
Why aren't government applying Bill C-45 to the hundreds of workers death since 2004?

Is there another way ?

Does anyone care about those thousands of Afghanis who have supported us and our ideas during our occupation?

Do we just walk away and leave them to the not-so-tender mercies of the Taliban who do not take too kindly to those who haven't 100% supported their dicta ?

Don't get me wrong, I'm no supporter of this war to preserve US dominance in the Middle East, nor am I a supporter of Mr Harper who'll ride Bush's coattails wherever they take him.

IMHO, there's no easy way out of this.

A very different war!

IAMC:

First of all, WW2 was a very different war. While Canada did not have to be involved, there were enough sympathetic ties to Britain that it was not questioned, except perhaps in Québec. We have no war with Afghanistan. It never attacked us or the US. The MSM has painted a large scary picture of Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran. They are tiny countries, smaller than Canada and none had any designs on US destruction. It was a small group of Arabs who MSM told us was The Taliban. If it really exists, it does not have anywhere near the power that Hitler had -- unless it was a CIA invention. Besides, Hitler's power would have eventually fizzled out. WW2 just hastened the process.

On the question of polling in WW2, well people actively wrote letters to their MPs and the PM then. They didn't have to be asked questions. Words on paper carried far more weight then than now.

sure there is ME2

Do we just walk away and leave them to the not-so-tender mercies of the Taliban who do not take too kindly to those who haven't 100% supported their dicta ?

Bring them here, what difference would another 10 or 20,000 make in the vast lands of Canada?

Good, then do the work needed to stick-it to all the war-mongers. Both LIEberal and CONformer have far too much blood on their hands, while I could never vote for the DIPPERS you may. Otherwise vote Independant, make the next election one where the candidates matter, not the party; as I see that as a big reason why we, the people, have lost all control over our national destiny.

Just as there really was no easy way in, we just walked happily along the route of flowers laid by our american 'ally'.

Yer right, Murdock

However, if - according to our usual custom - we follow the lead of our brain-dead "allies", we'll be certain to declare all Afghanis as potential terrorists, and deny them entrance to Canada.

You are also spot on re not endorsing with a ballot our current political parties. Voting for Independants may indeed be solution, but so also is spoiling one's ballot.

Most people bridle at this suggestion, thinking that this is a wasted vote. And so it is - if only a few people deliberately do so. However, spoiled ballots ARE counted and duly noted. If there are quite a few of these votes, they indicate the even more who won't resort to this, and thus there is an unrepresented constituency looking for a home.

Until my present MP came along, I spoiled my ballot in the three previous Fed elections.