Between Lines of Campbell's Speech: A New 'Fudge-It Budget'
He'll have to jigger the books to not show a deficit.
Premier Campbell: New tune.
Clip this column. Or, at least, remember this key point: Gordon Campbell's BC Liberal government is going to foist a "Fudge-It Budget" on British Columbians next February, just before it faces voters in a May provincial general election.
Simply, B.C.'s 2009-10 fiscal plan is going to have a deficit because the government's expenditures will exceed revenues. The Campbell government, however, will say otherwise, claiming instead that their budget is "balanced." That means they are going to have to "fudge" the books to show that revenues exceed expenditures, rather than the other way around.
Preparing to sail the red ink sea
B.C. will not be alone in this sea of red ink. A fiscal contagion is now engulfing governments across North America, hot on the heels of widespread economic dislocation following the global credit crunch.
In the United States, where sizeable deficits have wracked the federal government for most of the past decade, experts believe that a newly-elected president Barack Obama will inherit an annual shortfall of $1 trillion.
State governments also are suffering. Consider California, where governor Arnold Schwarzenegger has recalled the state legislature for an emergency session next month to combat a possible $17 billion deficit.
In Canada, TD Economics last week issued a special report under the headline, "Canada's federal government facing significant deficits." While our country is expected to stay in the black for the remainder of the current fiscal year (2008-09*), it's a much different story over the next two fiscal periods. According to the TD economists, expenditures could exceed revenues by $10.4 billion in 2009-10, and then $9.9 billion in 2010-11.
And just hours before Campbell's televised address to British Columbians, the Ontario finance minister admitted that despite cutting some expenditures and delaying others, his government anticipates the current year will end with a $500 million deficit -- this just months after the legislature passed a balanced budget. He refused to make any forecast for next year.
Premier changes his tune
Let's go back to last night when Campbell made his televised address to the province and admitted that British Columbia is not immune to the financial and economic turmoil now gripping the industrialized world. "World stock markets are reeling, commodity prices are plunging and the world's financial system is under attack," he began, a little breathlessly.
Readers who tend toward the churlish might suggest that this observation shows the premier has made a 180-degree about-face, now accepting that global forces have had, and are having, a significant impact on B.C.'s economic health.
For the last half-decade or so, the BC Liberals have strenuously denied that soaring, world-wide commodity prices, skyrocketing international demand for our natural resources, historically low interest rates and an explosion in federal transfers to provincial governments, had anything at all to do with B.C.'s improved economic circumstances, and succession of budgetary surpluses.
Rather, they crowed that British Columbia's economic and fiscal successes were due exclusively to BC Liberal policies, the courage and foresight of the premier, and the commitment of his dedicated caucus. External forces, whatever they were, were irrelevant.
Well, times have changed, and so too has Campbell's tune.
Ten plus five equals...
To meet this grave situation, which Campbell said was the "worst crisis in over 75 years," the premier outlined a 10-point plan -- which was on top of a five-point program he unveiled earlier in the day in Nanaimo (which proposes meetings with experts, business leaders and other governments).
To start, the legislature will be recalled for a short session to begin on Nov. 20. Six weeks ago, of course, the government cancelled the legislative assembly's scheduled fall sitting because it had nothing to do.
Well, now there is. Legislative approval is needed for tax cuts promised by Campbell, including relief for industry (a school property tax rebate), small business (a reduction in the small-business income tax rate to 2.5 per cent) and individuals (a retroactive cut in personal income tax).
As well, the provincial government will remove limits on deposit-insurance protection for individuals with credit union accounts, and set up a private-sector pension plan for those British Columbians who do not have a group pension scheme.
A technical measure that will be applauded by the private sector is a doubling of the commission Victoria pays to businesses for collecting the sales and hotel taxes. It's a gift estimated to cost the provincial treasury $60 million over a three-year period.
That's seven of the proposals unveiled by Campbell. Another is a gimmick, pure and simple -- Victoria will give the BC Ferry Services $20 million to cover a 33 per cent reduction in fares for December and January.
Why those two months? Well, the premier explained, it will help families get together over the holidays. Then again, the BC Liberals hold only four* of 14 seats on Vancouver Island, and there's this election in May.
One more proposal put forth by Campbell is a pledge to accelerate capital expenditures for infrastructure. This is a neat trick insofar as British Columbia's GAAP accounting allows the cost of capital spending to be spread over many, many years. So, while the BC Liberals get the benefit of having construction jobs created and projects fast-tracked, just a fraction of those expenditures will be counted in the current or subsequent fiscal years.
Define 'avoidable'
Finally -- and this is proof that B.C. will be facing a fiscal shortfall very soon -- Campbell said that his government would re-evaluate spending priorities and reduce "avoidable" government expenditures.
The intent of this measure, the premier said, was to "not start digging ourselves into that hole that we worked so hard to get out of in 2001."
That comment echoed what Campbell told CBC News earlier in the week following an economic summit he and Canada's other premiers attended with the prime minister in Montreal. "It's taken us more than a decade to get out of the deficit holes that were dug," he said.
"And I think we should be building on that because that's the foundation of that financial prudence into the future, not starting to dig another hole. So I am not in favour of deficit financing."
It's possible to detect in Campbell's remarks the sentiment that while he blames the current economic and fiscal uncertainty on "the world," he still credits British Columbia's economic prosperity and fiscal strength to his own government's actions.
But as students of fiscal history know all too well, it is seldom that public finances fall seriously into deficit -- digging a hole, as the premier put it -- because of government over-spending. And that's because government expenditures (absent a war), are generally relatively stable.
On the other hand, government revenues fluctuate considerably. And this is especially true in countries such as Canada, and provinces like British Columbia, which depend to a great extent on the extraction and export of natural resources. Inadvertently, Gordon Campbell himself provided evidence of this in his televised address.
"Today the world's financial system is in the grips of its worst crisis in over 75 years," he said. That takes us back to 1933, the nadir of the Great Depression, which began in 1929 and persisted through the early years of the Second World War.
Did governments around the world face horrendous deficits in the Great Depression because all of them were engaged in out-of-control spending? Hardly.
In the late 1920s and early 1930s, global commodity demand and prices fell off a cliff. Around the world, government revenues dropped off a cliff. Those deficits were caused because, while government expenditures stayed steady -- and, actually, most decreased significantly, to the consternation of John Maynard Keynes -- the monies flowing into public coffers slowed to a trickle.
It was very nearly the same in British Columbia in the early 1980s, as commodity prices plunged and government deficits quickly appeared. The condition persisted in B.C. through to the late 1990s, until the most-recent global commodity boom got underway.
It's revenues, not spending
To appreciate that Victoria's spending is not responsible for B.C.'s worsening fiscal situation, the premier should consult the 2008 edition of the British Columbia Financial and Economic Review, an annual publication published by the finance ministry.
Table A3.6 on page 93 shows historical expenditures by the Consolidated Revenue Fund for every fiscal period from 1984/85 to last year, 2007/08. And for every year but the last four, government expenditures were between 17.1 per cent and 19.7 per cent of the province's GDP.
Then, in 2004/05, the figure fell to 16.6 per cent, and over the next three years was 16.2 per cent, 15.6 per cent and 15.9 per cent.
How, one is tempted to ask, is it possible that Victoria faces fiscal uncertainty when government spending is in decline, and at its lowest point in a quarter-century?
The answer, of course, is on the other side of the fiscal equation -- government revenues.
The monies flowing into the provincial treasury will slow -- and probably have already begun to slow -- as people lose their jobs and businesses see their sales weaken, as commodity prices fall and companies lay off their workers, and as Ottawa tries to get its finances under control by freezing or even slashing federal transfers.
Running in the red?
Still, as was stated earlier, the situation is grave and the premier should be commended for taking action to mitigate the potential impact on British Columbia. But he also is facing an election in six months, and woe be the B.C. premier who seeks a mandate from the voters as red ink drenches the province's books.
Next February, the Campbell government will introduce the fiscal plan for 2009-10. By law, its revenues must exceed its expenditures, but as governments of every political stripe across North America wrestle with gargantuan shortfalls, what is the likelihood that it will be?
Almost impossible, and so let us begin to prepare for a B.C. budget packed with that good, old fudge. But here's something else to consider: what should we do about it?
*Two corrections made at 3:20 p.m. on Oct. 23, 2008.
Related Tyee stories:
- Campbell cuts taxes in BC to fight global economic slowdown
- Taylor's New Recipe for Fudge
Predecessors fudged deficits. She hid a whopping surplus. - Campbell Misled Public on NDP Finances
In 2001 the incoming premier called NDP finances "worse than we anticipated." His briefing binders, gained by The Tyee through an FOI, told him the opposite.
![[Tyee]](http://thetyee.cachefly.net/ui/img/ico_fishie.png){kind=small}
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politico
3 years ago
Digging the hole deeper
It is a remarkable example of revisionist history to claim the NDP dug a hole he had to get out of. Especially when you consider on his first day as Premier he gave his pals on the high end of the income scale a 6 billion dollar tax cut. Guess the hole wasn't that deep....
And too suggest the fix is providing even more tax cuts, faster is so Bush like it is to shudder.
This is electioneering based on fiction.
The NDP should trounce this plan and offer their own, pronto!
sirjohna
3 years ago
what took you guys? over 12
what took you guys? over 12 hours before the tyee discredits gordo. your sponsor faced off with michael levy and made a fool of himself on the news last night and carole james looked, once more, like a deer in the headlights.
'The NDP should trounce this plan and offer their own, pronto!'
good luck. absolutely nothing has changed. these guys are still spending their mornings planning for the afternoon!
politico
3 years ago
Government in Waiting
Now is the time to start like a Government in Waiting.
You do that by providing a clear alternative while discrediting Gordo's attempt to re brand himself.
This is a target rich environment and the NDP had better start hitting them or they will suffer a loss of seats.
Stop whining, start winning and be a government in waiting.
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
Will...
Actually, they hold four - Comox Valley, Nanaimo-Parksville, Oak Bay-Gordon Head, Saanich North and the Islands.
And with the redrawn boundary lines looks like they will likely at least pick-up Saanich South and Vancouver Island North.
That aside, right now there is tooooo much uncertainty. In August we certainly did not know what the situation would be today. Today we don't know what will occur six months from now. Economically, things may just turn around in terms of consumer confidence, maybe, maybe not.
That seems to be the overall consensus.
Vaughn Palmer:
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=2697ac77-af86-42e2-9cb1-e0ad3ebb4981
Norman Spector:
http://tinyurl.com/62du4m
[URL shortened for technical reasons. -moderator.]
Jeffrey J.
3 years ago
His Royal Highness Speaks
As North America moves further away from democracy, elected officials like Gordon Campbell begin to sound more like rulers and royal vizers. Commandments come from above, dictating to the good burghers of the realm. This latest "speech" from this lacklustre politician underscores this well. Suddenly, Mr. Cambpell, a long time shill for the real estate industry, is an accomplished economist. I wish.
Rather, we see a hodge podge wish list cooked up in record time. Much of the real talent in this regime has left for greener pastures. The thinking is likely to get progressively worse as time wears on. And BC citizens will have to suffer the consequences. Excellent analysis Will McMartin.
Tieleman
3 years ago
McMartin at his number crunching best!
Thank goodness we have Will McMartin and his calculator at the ready to dispell the nonsense numbers of Gordon Campbell!
Bring on the fudge indeed.
Bill Tieleman
http://billtieleman.blogspot.com/
David Lewis
3 years ago
interesting discussion
I look around the political arena and I don't see a lot of clearly articulated truth. So I'm not sure about that "key point" you've stressed, i.e. that a "fudge-it budget" is in the cards, and I should be concerned that Cambell is trying to pretend it isn't. What am I supposed to do? Note that and what, only vote for non liars? Where are they?
James was on CBC Daybreak South this morning and she continued on her incessant drumbeat: carbon tax carbon tax carbon tax. The interviewer paused at one point and asked is this it? This is the biggest thing on your mind? I'd add: supposedly the greatest economic tsunami yet faced by our generation is about to emerge from the global economic crisis and strike BC, Campbell's plan seems like a few tweaks, and James is trumpeting get rid of a 3 cent a liter carbon tax.
You seem to think the big problem is what do we do if the BC government runs a deficit. I'd say, what do we do if all the $trillions thrown into the breach by governments worldwide fails to stop what is happening and we find ourselves facing economic collapse? And, I'd say, there is this colossal elephant still in the room: climate change.
I don't see where the US federal deficit is some kind of fiscal contagion. Its a deliberate policy.
There seems to be an unprecedented agreement between economic thinkers as diametrically opposed as Krugman on one hand and Friedman and the Chicago school on the other that an economic apocalypse looms, and taking on a massive more than $1 trillion expansion of US federal government gross liabilities, said by The Economist as almost twice the cost so far of the Iraq War, is the only way out.
It seems to me that policy to deal with this is going to have to be federal, as they have the economic tools. But one of those tools is deficit spending, and it may be that a coordinated massive deficit run by all provinces and the federal government may become necessary. I don't know. What we might debate would be where such spending might be usefully directed to in case it became necessary, because I've never seen such agreement among economists.
I'd say spend on climate policy, build a new electric grid to allow more use of renewables, capture the carbon from all the coal plants and tar sand production, retrofit all Canada's housing aimed at efficient use of energy, renew the transport fleet, rethink our entire way of life, etc. But I realize few believe we face a crisis that would involve such drastic action.
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
Tieleman...
Bill, weren't you the campaign strategist for Glen Clark, prior and during the 1996 election, with all of the left-wing populism rhetoric that also resulted in BC's first "Fudge-It-Budget" scandal? :)
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2000/04/13/helpbc000413.html
Bill... that's akin to the pot calling the kettle black! ;)
Joe the Plumber
3 years ago
jigger the books?
Hey. Look at this Campbell plan. There's nothing in it for me. Where are the tax breaks for hasbeen unlicensed plumbers? Its time to open the floodgates of public finance. Harper handed out $25 billion to the banks a few days before the election and hardly anyone seemed to care about that. Why not hand over something that big to me? Campbell could give me $10 billion and I'd take it.
politico
3 years ago
Reality check
Carole needs to simply lay out the facts.
The 6 Billion dollar tax cut on day one was permanent. So 6 x 7 is 42 billion. 42 billion dollar hole made by GC on day one. No one else is to blame but him.
Next you talk about the subsequent gutting of public services right down to voice-books for blind people. So Campbell and Co looked under every freakin rock to find the 42 billion to send off to the mostly well healed.
Seven years later when deficit financing is an almost certainty, Campbell delivers more of the same. Further fast-tracked tax cuts while "eying spending."
He can only "eye" spending cuz there ain't no more fat to cut. No more holes in the belt to tighten with. He has a lean mean government bustin machine.
And more tax cuts are just a vote buying default election position of the right.
Take the gloves off Carole and just lay out the facts.
Joe the Solar Guy
3 years ago
get out of here Plumber
Obviously we need to stop Site C. What are people thinking? The reservoir for that dam is already built. It amounts, almost, to a run of the river hydro project. They'll probably even build it with union labour if Campbell falls as the economic crisis hits. Where will all the solar guys be then? I'm telling you, we're developing new solar techniques that convert water into power, you watch. We focus the sun on beakers of water, it goes into the atmosphere, and if we chose our beaker location correctly, the water vapour runs into a mountain, falls as rain into our solar collector, we run it through a turbine and voila! Electrical power. All we need is a massive government subsidy.
Stop Site C. And get out of here Joe the Plumber. Its over for you. Get used to it.
alive
3 years ago
then and now
Interesting how"global forces" are the cause this time around, but not when Glen Clark's government faced a similar downturn?
bob the cat
3 years ago
redundant
I was only able to catch the Vaughn Palmer
headline in this am.s Sun.
"After a Silly Buildup, Campbell offers a sensible package."
Could some one perhaps enlighten me...are we being "let go"?
Will we be receiving pink slips? All of us?
Just the unruly and "hard to house"?
The aged and useless now unproductive societal deadweight?
The halt the blind the lame?
Will we be ..just "put away" for awhile until the economy improves...or the Olympic party is over
Will he have us "put to sleep"
really I want to know
is HE letting us go
A package? HE`s offering a package?
bob the cat
3 years ago
more package
oh..and will the package contain
1. A bus ticket as far as Winnipeg with a stop at Fort Mac
2. fifty bucks
3. A signed 8x12 glossy of the CEO HIMSELF
egmont rapids
3 years ago
Time to assess the bribe
#1 Restore ferry service that was cut 2 weeks ago--WOW
#2 Reduce ferry fares temporarily to what they were last year--WOW
#3 Credit union deposit were never ever at risk!
#4 5% tax cut is merely carbon tax money collected and returned
#5 A pension plan (volentary) not exactly a quick fix
#6 I heard nothing about "money" for infrastructure--P3s are having big trouble getting financing!
#7 Cut goverment spending (what social programs will get hammered)
#8 small business tax cut and raising of the fees to collect the PST was the only good thing he did/last night
Last night Campbell --Did nothing for --Seniors,students,unemployed,forestry towns,minimum wage earners,crime problem,homelessness,welfare rates--NOTHING
But Campbell did TWO THINGS LAST NIGHT THAT HE HAD NOT INTENDED TO DO!
#1 He proved that he is a bald faced fibster by interfering with the quazi/private corporation known as BC Ferries---BC Ferries and Translink are run by and directed by the Campbell goverment/despite Campbell running away from Translink and Ferry decisions!
#2 This is the big one! Campbell just shouted fire in a crowded theater--Campbell single handidly spooked the already jittery housing market,he spooked companies,investors,he spooked the consumer==Campbell statement/speech/electioneering fear mongering spooked the entire province.
NOW THATS WHAT I CALL LEADERSHIP
Skywalker
3 years ago
Hey Luke.
Do you mind telling us what the outcome of that court case was? Instead you keep harping on Glen's budget. Give it a rest. It seems to me that had the Liberals not had their friends take the matter to court, you might actually have a point to make here today. It went to court and the judge ruled on it. As I recall you and all the liberals were spinning then, and still are.
How convenient for you that we won't find out how bad it is till after the May election. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black...
Skywalker
3 years ago
And remember the promise from Campbell that ...
...tax cuts will pay for themselves. That one got the liberals elected. How did that turn out without the benefit of higher commodity prices? Here we are trying the same worn out silly idea with commodity prices falling.
mcdull
3 years ago
Total bias by the news
Total bias by the news media. I have complained to the CRTC about the chance it was in prime time with no questions and no rebuttal. Just adoration
lynn
3 years ago
A pinch from the Grinch
"In other measures, Campbell said his government will fund a 33-per-cent temporary reduction in all BC Ferries fares for December and January. He said the government will ensure ferries return to a full sailing schedule."
A "temporary" reduction! (How kind of you Mr. Premier.)
For December and January only?
Wow! The "generosity" and the "long term vision" of this economic plan is IMPRESSIVE. NOT. (Why bless you, Mr. Premier...and your teeny-tiny... and very temporary heart.)
The sheer smallness of this gesture is indeed, UNDERWHELMING.
I mean my heart breaks.
How you have come through for the people of BC once again!
Blessings. Ferries will return to a "full" schedule?
Now you've gone too far in your benevolence, Mr. Premier.
No, no we can't possibly accept this wonderful offering.
It is too much.
Unbelievable.
A "full" schedule, you say? You mean like usual, like we had just weeks ago? Before it was so rudely... and undemocratically DECLARED that it would be taken away.
hmmm....funny, you didn't say anything then.
Oh I get it.....
ferry runs are giveth
and then
ferry runs are taketh away ...
and then
ferry runs are giveth back...
before the election.
and then
after the election...
all things are taketh away ...
and all bets are off....
G West
3 years ago
Fiscal and monetary magic
What I don't understand is why Campbell didn't just add a couple more points on the Sales Tax but promise to refund it all to the taxpayers just before May 12 of 2009.
I mean, tha Campbell Tax is working SO well - why not apply that philosophy to stimulating the economy too.
Oh, by the way, does anyone remember the BC Liberal promise - when they turned BC Ferries into a 'private' self-governing entity - that there would be no more POLITICAL INTERFERENCE in its operations?
I seem to recall Minister Falcon saying that same phrase at least a dozen times in the last year.
I wonder if he got the memo from Jessica that Gordon had a new message from the ministry of truth.
monty
3 years ago
Palmer and Spector
sound like shills for the Premier--who did not look very well at all. They should be ashamed of themselves. At least Keith was honest on CTV when he said "we're being manipulated by gov't" then something like "the spin doctors are at work." Too many members of the media are into pandering and fawning instead of objective, critical analysis. Time for retirement for Palmer, Spector and Bill Good, who has hogged three journalism jobs for far too long.
Why no mention of the homeless?What about seniors whose RRSP's and RRIF's have lost 50% of their value? They way we treat the poor and needy is a direct reflection of what kind of people we are. Think about it.
jimmy_laroux
3 years ago
Capital expenditures for infrastructure
Will McMartin:
Don't forget P3s/PFIs, new phenomena in BC, which allow the government to move debt off the books and rename it "contractual obligations" instead. Billions of dollars of infrastructure debt is hidden in this way.
jimmy_laroux
3 years ago
Fudge-it budgets
We had a "fudge-it budget" last year. Our total debt increased by 1.2 billion $ from to 33.433 billion to 34.627 billion $.
http://www.fin.gov.bc.ca/OCG/pa/07_08/PublicAccounts.pdf
In other words, BC had a deficit of 1.2 billion dollars. But at the same time, the BC government declared that it had a 2.886 billion $ surplus.
A surplus with increasing debt. Only in BC.
jimmy_laroux
3 years ago
Editor
The first link to a Washington Post article is dead.
jimmy_laroux
3 years ago
alive
alive:
Indeed. Rafe Mair pointed that out in this article:
http://thetyee.ca/Views/2008/10/13/WallStreet/
crh
3 years ago
don't worry bob the cat
I hear that is actually PUPPIES that Gordo likes to kick.
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
Jimmy...
Not as simple as that.
For some of the following reasons and tidbits from BC Public Accounts:
And of course "deferred revenue" increased:
2006/07: $5,989 billion
2007/08: $7,136 billion
"Deferred Revenue" meaning "cash in the bank account" that must be accounted for (GAAP) over a 5 to 10 year period based upon the duration of natural gas tenures, in part.
That "Deferred Revenue", in part due to bonus bids for oil and gas tenures, will again substantially grow again this year based upon the ~$2.1 billion in bonus bids received to date. (for calendar year 2008 although mostly incurred during the 2008 fiscal year)
BTW, all signed off by Auditor-General Doyle.
Ya better report any "hanky panky" to the Auditor-General or to the credit rating agencies, if ya think otherwise.
jimmy_laroux
3 years ago
Great article!
Will McMartin,
Excellent article!
jimmy_laroux
3 years ago
Everybody wins
As in cut social spending. That way, BC can remain a "deficit-free zone", so that everybody wins!
http://tinyurl.com/6s7nev
[URL replaced with shorter version for technical reasons. -moderator.]
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
And What Do The People OF BC Think???
Of the government's 10-point plan from yesterday?
Ipsos Poll (Global BC)
Approve - 72%
Disapprove - 21%
Effective - 59%
Not Effective - 34%
Skywalker
3 years ago
Oh Luke.
The liberal spin machine must really be working overtime. It all sounds so desperate Luke. This playing with the numbers. A poll which comes out before most people on the street even know the details. Asking them to make a judgement on a few things they may have picked up. Well my friend go for it. What I hear is that Campbell isn't fooling anyone. Only the absolute die-hard liberal believes anything he says.
So let me ask again Luke, what was the decision of the Judge in the case that made the claim that a Glen Clark budget was fudged.
Glen Murtz
3 years ago
Who Cares?
I just want him to end all the Satanic cult, drug dealing, motorcycle riding gangsters who populate the headlines in our local "media".
Seriously though... would it be so awful to run a tiny, daily feature on the front page of these rags counting the days the democratic process has been held hostage?
ie: Democracy Held Hostage : 27 Days
Yeh - I guess the steaming pile of paper we call our "news" media would really be exerting themselves by having to count, wouldn't they?
jimmy_laroux
3 years ago
Surplus, surplus, surplus...
Luke Skywalker:
:) Yes, it is, but as it makes the BC Liberals look bad, I don't imagine you would admit this.
http://www.fin.gov.bc.ca/OCG/pa/07_08/PublicAccounts.pdf
Note the word "borrowed" used here. Not my words, by the way, those of the BC Ministry of Finance.
As though BC taxpayers are not liable in the end for BC crown corporations...
According to the Ministry of Finance total debt is "the most commonly used measure of debt." But anyway, if you think total debt is so unimportant, why do you bring it up when denouncing the Evil NDP?
As in money BC will make but hasn't yet. So, um... how is this relevant? To last year's Public Accounts?
sirjohna
3 years ago
why would gordo cut the
why would gordo cut the carbon tax at this time? it's his ace in the hole. if the polls shows he's down in the spring he can cut it then, guaranteeing another easy victory. now that's some good politics. looks like the ndp will be in opposition for another four years, and they'd better find themselves a leader who doesn't speak with a lilt next time round.
egmont rapids
3 years ago
Luke Skywalker
Where is the ipsos reid from last month on who would you vote for in a general election,it seems that poll got burned in the fireplace!
That little poll you posted luke--Cmon, how could anyone DISAPPROVE!
Luke Skywalker, are saying that Campbell will now win both bi-elections next week?
How about a 10.000.oo dollar bet, the tyee can hold the money.
Ya talk the talk,can you walk the walk?
Did you watch Olsen on your side on the news tonight?
He did the math, a family earning 60.000.00 a year will save 111.00 a year
A income of 25.000.00 will save 34.00 a year
A income of 40.000.00 will save 60.00 a year
Yea, that will save the economy, a whole 1/4 tank 1/2 tank 1 tank of gas.
Wait til people get their november/december/january BC Hydro bill
Considering BC Hydro with the 11% increase to the base rate comes into effect next month--No I am not talking about the 2 teir hydro bill that came in effect october 1st
Don`t forget about the 15% increase from april this year.
Year over year a 30% plus increase
Average house--an extra 600.00 a year
Average apartment--an extra 150.00 a year
Just let the masses digest the visionary plan, then stand clear as everyone throws up!
G West
3 years ago
On the subject of Campbell's little speech
Anyone who thinks Campbell is more than a bad used car salesman trying to get the customer to buy a tarted up bimmer with sawdust in the transmission ought to read this, from Paul Willcocks, before thinking that poll result 'means' anything.
The Bureau was burning the midnight oil and Jessica was on the horn woth Gordo for a couple days working out all the details.
Get with the program dudes!
http://willcocks.blogspot.com/2008/10/less-than-meets-eye-to-campbells-big.html
egmont rapids
3 years ago
luke skywalker
Here is what people really feel about the Campbell vision.
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=ae7712a9-b839-47d5-9afb-0fe450cfcesb
BC Mary
3 years ago
"Public Affairs Officers", media monitors
Campbell could save a bundle merely by giving pink slips to his small army of propagandists.
There were 185 NEW ones hired by O.i.C. #656 in Sept. 2006.
There were probably 150 already on the government payroll at that time.
Add another 50 coming on board in the subsequent 2 years. That's an estimated 385 people hired on the people's money -- presumably to make the Campbell Gang look good.
At a mean average of $50,000. p.a., according to my calculator that's $19,250,000. a year being spent on something which, in my view, is undemocratic in the extreme.
leftofcentre
3 years ago
You gotta be kidding...
Look, I'm a left-of-centre guy like a lot of people here. But even with my university economics courses, I know that governments either choose to live within their means or they don't. The Tories in Ottawa and the Liberals in Ontario are committing political suicide by running deficits. The governments that survive this meltdown are the ones that keep the books balanced and cut spending. The problem with Bush-Reagan style economics is that they never seem to get around to the spending cuts that are needed.
For anyone who thinks the NDP are going to be the beneficiary of this, think twice...Most BCers look at Carole James as a joke of a leader...indecisive, whiny and a poor communicator like Stephane Dion. The NDP would do well to turf her out if they want to challenge Gordo.
egmont rapids
3 years ago
I try again
What people think
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=ae7712a9-b839-47d5-9afb-0fe450cfce3b
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
egmont rapids
Thanks for the link! ;)
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=ae7712a9-b839-47d5-9afb-0fe450cfce3b
egmont rapids:
Yep. ;)
leftofcentre
3 years ago
The byelections are irrelevant
The byelections will be lucky if they get 40% turnout, considering the circumstances (feds & municipals taking the limelight).
There's nothing to be built on for any party in the byelections (unless the Greens win one)
Skywalker
3 years ago
Conveniently left out
"The Ipsos Reid poll found that while people generally like the economic plan and think it will be good for the province, only one in four say it makes them more confident about spending their own money over the next few months."
Wow!! I' am so relieved now!
egmont rapids
3 years ago
Luke Skywalker
If you actually read the story it also says---
52% think the plan is ineffective--
43% say the plan might be effective--
Here`s the big one Luke
62% of the people polled said the Campbell vision/plan is nothing but electioneering!
More Liberal Math
I am glad I have you on the record on the bi-elections!
egmont rapids
3 years ago
LUKE Skywalker
Could you ask --Klye Braid of Canwest/ipsos reid where that provincial poll from last month ended up being buried?
Perhaps it got mis-placed in GREG LYLE`S DESK OVER AT THE INNOVATIVE GROUPS.You know the desk, the one Ken Dobell`s essay is filed in!
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
BC Taxation...
I'm just watching Voice of BC right now and Finance Minister Colin Hansen is Vaughn Palmer's guest.
I guess I also learn something new every day as well!!!!
Of the 103 tax cuts that the provincial government has implemented since 2001, the NDP has voted against each one in the BC legislature.
Sheesh, even the federal Liberals voted in favour of the Cons federal government's tax reductions.
leftofcentre:
Manitoba NDP Premier Gary Doer, can ya lend a hand??!!
happy
3 years ago
Hey Skywalker
"Hey Luke
Do you mind telling us what the outcome of that court case was? Instead you keep harping on Glen's budget. Give it a rest."
I remember what the Judge ruled Skywalker. Indeed, Glen and the gang were found not guilty of any "criminal" wrongdoing. The Judge stated "Critical information was withheld from the Public", that critical information being the fact that an unprecedented amount of "optimism" had been demanded of the Forestry ministry in order to balance the Budget. And then on the strength of that Budget they won (barely) re-election.
And then following the revelation that the Budget wasn't balanced a Poll showed that had the Public known that, they wouldn't have won re-election.
So was it illegal?
No.
I'd call it fraud and a poltical dirty trick of the lowest category worthy of GWB to steal an election.
I'm sure you remember it differently, the Golden Age when the BC Fed ruled the land for the good of all
G West
3 years ago
happy
I thought you never brought up Glen Clark and the deck?
happy
3 years ago
Thats right West
I've never mentioned Glen's deck. Not once.
Fiat lux
3 years ago
There are no tax, or cost
There are no tax, or cost cuts of anything, only the transfer of costs on other sectors, making them pay the real costs of a crazy, warped, idiotic and wasteful economic system, called the GDP.
The main purpose of economic theories is the spreading and transferring of real costs, while calling it "growth" and benefiting a very small percentage.
Corporate profits are also a form of taxation, yet nobody dares to question them?
Like the profits of oil and food companies doubling in a year, while millions are employed in minimum wage part time jobs and farmers are forced off their lands by the thousands by the price fixing cartels.
Where are the politicians daring to stand up and demanding investigations for fraud?
Ed Deak.
egmont rapids
3 years ago
Captain Campbell`s plan
Another way of assessing the so-called poll about Campbell`s plan is this--
The SS British Columbia has water coming up through the deck boards.
Captain Campbell`s visionary plan to save the boat is---Bail out 10 buckets of water out of the boat.
Poll question #1 --Since there are NO OTHER PLANS TO SAVE THE BOAT Are you happy with the plan--yes or no ?
Poll question #2---Do you think this plan will save the boat?
75% of the people think the boat will sink anyways.
Buy according to Klye Braid ---72% are glad that 10 buckets of water are being bailed out of the boat!
Back to reality for a minute--That poll is like asking people if a few crumbs are better than none!
G West
3 years ago
You claimed only to be a ferry person happy
And that comment had nothing to do with the ferries....I'm beginning to think you're just a closet Campbell guy and that's too bad - I was beginning to think you might be an honest broker.
G West
3 years ago
By the way - speaking of 'between the lines'
If there are any amateur or professional psychologists out there I'd appreciate hearing your comments.
I thought, and a couple of others have mentioned it to me as well, that Campbell seemed oddly hollow-eyed and drawn (although he clearly had his usual over-abundance of pancake makeup for the camera).
He seemed a man with a haunted air to him - his delivery was mechanical and expressionless and his body language seemed as though he was, don't know quite what term I'm looking for, kind of defensive and extremely uncomfortable.
I'd be interested to know if anyone else got the same impression - or am I just being influenced by my visceral dislike of the man and his fraudulent government.
happy
3 years ago
No I didn't
When did I ever claim to be only a ferry guy?
I've brought up Pakistani power plant "investment" deals for NDP insiders, ALR land removal for NDP insiders, NDP insiders stealing from charities, and yes, those floaty things.
No decks.
I've been open and honest, just like you
G West
3 years ago
And happy
Fraud is a criminal offence - I'd be a little careful where you throw 'that' kind of allegation around. One of my lawyer friends just sent me this:
"Fraud and related crimes, frequently called white collar crimes, are one of the fastest growing areas of crime in Canada. It represents an economic loss to the Canadian public of millions of dollars.
There are over fifty fraud or fraudulent type offences in the Criminal Code, covering a very wide range of activities..."
I won't bore you with the rest....
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
I Bet!!!
g west:
Me too... esp. regards to the following addressed to me, personally! :)
g west:
egmont rapids
3 years ago
G West
If you read an earlier post of mine--
I stated that "Campbell shouted fire in a crowded theatre"
Campbell with his panicky tone put more of a spook into all of BCs markets.
Who is going to buy a home now?
Who is going to invest in BC now?
Who is going to spend?
Who is going to do anything like before?
I finished my earlier post with--
"Thats what I call leadership"
Maybe Campbell needed a drink?
But if thats a steady hand at the wheel,god help us all!
I thought I was the only one to pick up on that,good eyes G West.
I wonder if the NDP or the MSM noticed the fear and panick Campbell was emoting?
G West
3 years ago
As for the election - I've told you this before
On that I agree with you - when the 'Liberals' won the popular vote they should also have won power - as for the other things, I think we'd have a good deal of discussion - especially on the Stupich thing - my lawyer friends also say that was a 'dirty' campbell trick of the highest order - despite the eventual outcome (which was, if you're really an honest broker, as much a consequence of the man's failing health as it was any criminal culpability on his part).
When you know as many lawyers as I do - and have several of them in the family - you learn pretty quickly not to make hard and fast statements about the 'relative' conditions of guilt and innocence.
Like all those other stories and cases - nothing is quite as it seems....
In any case, and I’m looking at each government from the ‘inside’ so to speak (and you’ll just have to take my honest word for that) the Campbell regimes have been absolutely the worst in my experience – a period which stretches back to the 1970s man and boy.
The province and its people will be well rid of Gordon Campbell – whether it is an election or by means of some other calamity (such as a finding in the Basi Case) that brings him down…..
G West
3 years ago
luke
Go back to the story where you first brought that up... you'll find a careful explanation of it there.
You stop making stupid personal remarks about whether or not you're 'happier' than I am and I won't make any personal remarks about you at all.
If you're half as clever as you think you are luke - you'll be able to figure it out.
Trust me, everyone else has!
G West
3 years ago
Thanks egmont
nice to know that I'm not the only one who saw the ghosts in his eyes....
egmont rapids
3 years ago
There was another poll
There was a poll done for Campbell last month,and there has been some internal polling done by Campbell.
He is way behind the NDP (go figure)
Campbell thought removing the coq tolls would change the poll numbers, they never budged!
Now he is trying to use economic fear to change the poll numbers, they won`t budge!
His numbers are still plunging.
So here Campbell (The stratagist) has fired a bazooka at the coq and couldn`t budge the numbers, now he has pulled out a Tommy gun and sprayed BC
The numbers still won`t move!
Now here Campbell is out of ammunition, the only WAY HE CAN RE-LOAD IS TO GO INTO A MAJOR DEFICIT!
I have said it before but it needs to be said again--Once the levee breaks,once the public decides enough is enough,there is nothing you can do, I don`t care what you promise or bribe the public with, THATS IT!
PEOPLE WANT TO and PEOPLE ARE GOING TO PUNISH CAMPBELL!
The more he shows his face,the more they hate him.
Campbell being the (ego maniac) he is, will refuse to acknowledge that fact,HE MAY HAVE A NERVOUS BREAKDOWN
ROBBINS Sce Research
3 years ago
When I heard this--fudge it
When I heard this--fudge it budget was the first thing that came to my mind. Thanks for the affirmation Will. Nice posts.
We phoned 100 people--only 6 said they were paying attention. "oh not yet" to were you listening to Gordon Campbells...I won't waste the space at ROBBINS. I unequivocally don't believe this Ipsos poll. If that is what Norman Spector said I am embarrassed for him.
The number of people in this media market who were once relevant who no longer are--is at standing room. I am pleased that CanWest did not schill. Pick up your telephone and ask a basket of people if they were paying attention through world series--hockey--and catching moths in their wallet---and tell me what feedback you got----then read the quotes from Luke S. (nice work)---and let me know what you think--it's not too late. I take the position that few paid attention to this and few would have deciphered it to the extent the poll suggests. For me--its a cartoon caricature.
BC is completely crooked for politics in my opinion. This is extremely dangerous.
snert
3 years ago
Hallowee'n coming up.
Practising.
Really, has he ever appeared otherwise?
happy
3 years ago
Thats a tough one West
You're asking me to take a lot on faith. You don't cut me the same latitude.
You've said in no uncertain terms before, my offerings on certain matters are worthless b/c I'm an anonymous poster.
Yet you say I'll just have to take your honest word for it that you know whats going on in the "inside"
You're just as anonymous to me as I am to you my friend.
But in the spirit of harmouny lets give it a go.
And you should warn some of the Tyee brethren about the dangers of unsubstantiated allegations of criminal activities. Such as Harper guilty of "treason" for an example. And we won't even start on Gordo....
G West
3 years ago
If the gordo
If the gordo actually knew anything about economics he wouldn't have had Jessica call his friends in business and industry and ask them what 'they' wanted him to say yesterday.
Instead of offering the usual tax cuts to the same old suspects he should have put money into infrastructure spending - most of it should have been in loans, grants or loan guarantees to cities and municipalities to get busy and build new sewers; to develop and expand sewer treatment plants; to buy more new buses and skytrain cars; to rapidly expand the scheduled seismic upgrades to BC public schools.
That would have been a start at something obviously positive - a way to stimulate growth by encouraging actual work and let the profits and the taxes look after themselves.
What he should have done was prime the pump by putting money in the hands of people who will spend it - not to cut taxes for anyone...
Oh and that little wrinkle about private pensions - don't hold your breath - it won't be anything real anytime soon.
Like that promise that every vehicle the province was going to buy after 2007 would be a hybrid...keep breathing folks..
G West
3 years ago
Don't think I've ever accused Harper of treason
And, in so far as anyone else is concerned, everybody speaks for themselves.
If I could post in the open - I would.
If you want more details, send me an email - set up your own anonymous email account and reply to this address:
garthwest@hotmail.com
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
Infrastructure...
g west:
Hmmmmmmm....
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=6c2b4f82-2169-4e1b-b3ac-a00615078e14
$42 billion... who woulda thunk?
Meh, just chump change. Nothing goin' on there. Just move on.
G West
3 years ago
ummm
Any idea what primary and secondary (let alone complete) sewage treatment for Victoria is going to cost?
More than $1 billion - in fact it may well be closer to $2 billion..
For all they've spent, health care has gotten worse, long-term care beds needs and promises have not been met, there hasn't been a serious attempt to address seismic remediation in public schools; hospital sanitation is in the toilet and hospital acquired infections are rampant.
Instead of creating an excellent medical teaching hospital at UBC (as they were advised to do) Campbell created mini campuses at great cost and little or no benefit in both Prince George and Victoria.
Murray Coel has been a total disaster as minister of higher education. I won’t bother to indict him – it’s already been done.
Furthermore, his penchant for P3s will be a financial black hole that will continue to haunt the province for years to come.
But, be that as it may, his statement last night was just plain garbage - and it won't do a thing to address the rapidly tanking economy.
Because Campbell doesn't know anything about actual planning he's relied on his business friends for advice and they are the same ones who created the inequality in the industry and the resource sector in the first place.....
chump change for chumps - you're absolutely right and NO value for money. Not to mention the utterly stupid costs of the RAV line and its toy subway to nowhere – which is the big infrastructure project of Campbell’s misrule.
Instead of useless tax refunds he should be putting money directly (or through investments in real projects) into the hands of people who will spend it - spend it because they need the money.
Something Gordon is congenitally incapable of understanding.
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
Most Intelligent Statement In This Thread?
I nominate the poster leftofcentre:
Very common perception.
As anti-BC Liberal Alex G. Tsakumis has previously stated:
Unfortunately, too many ostriches with their head in the sand.
The blind being led by the blind.
G West
3 years ago
Oh and
While he's at it, during his little 'emergency' mini session ( you know the one he annouced in early September there was absolutely NO REASON TO CALL) he could immediately raise the minimum wage to $10/hour AND get rid of the training wage pander to the lobbyists of the hotel and restaurant industry.....
You can be sure those folks won't benefit from his tax cuts and they sure as heck are going to spend the money....
G West
3 years ago
Carole James may lack experience
But she is a humble and honest person. Someone with both character and morals.
I think that's a lot more important in a leader in these times than the 'qualities' brought to the job by the wrecking crew of Gordon Campbell and his lobbyist friends.
Unlike Campbell, James knows she needs help and advice and she'll find it. Campbell has always been the centre of his own narrow narcissistic universe - like that of sociopath leaders throughout history - his reign has been a disaster...a descent into corruption, profiteering, asset sellouts and double dealing in every area of provincial business that he and his band of tricksters have touched.
Perhaps we can talk a little more about the activities of the Basi Boyz and other such moral disasters in the Premier’s retinue…..
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
Carole James - Stephane Dion
g west:
Hmmmmmmmm....
Just prior to the federal Liberal leadership convention, federal NDP leader Jack Layton made this public statement:
Look where it got Dion.
seth
3 years ago
who is lukey in the sky?
I'm voting for Kevin "total recall" Falcon and his gang or writers and researchers from the Frazer Institute.
zalm
3 years ago
Alex the swot?
"As anti-BC Liberal Alex G. Tsakumis has previously stated:"
Wot?
The self-same Alex Tsakumis who is a director of the NPA in Vancovuer, the snot-nosed toff who graduated from St George's private school to writing crank letters to the editor to making a career of spilling his ignorance in bold type CAPITAL LETTERS all over web pages and what remains of the press in Vancouver?
He's against the BC Fiberals? I'd sure like to know about it, because every time I have the misfortune to run across one of his screeds I need to turn the page hurriedly or run to the bathroom, because the only thing more obnoxious than his insulting, incompetent writing (certainly no credit to the standards at St George's for sure) is his ignorant Darwinian point of view.
Of course, if you want to hitch your wagon to his star....
Anyway, show me please where he's anti Liberal. Seriously - I'm all ears.
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
Yuppers...
Well...
Hmmmmmmm... ya could be right there zalm.... Tsakumis apparently does have alot of respect for the Liberals and El Gordo. Here's just a sample:
http://tinyurl.com/5a6fm3
[URL replaced with shorter version for technical reasons. -moderator.]
I dunno... you be the Judge!
happy
3 years ago
You got that right West
Only Carole won't have to "ask" for advice should she sit in the Premiers chair.
She would be "given" advice by the BC Fed, just like Georgetti "gave" advice to Harcourt, starting with appointing young Glen to the all powerfull Finance ministry.
Then "advising" the Finanace Minister to implement the biggest tax increase in Provincial history in their first budget. Why?
To pay for the first round of healthy wage and benefit increases for the privileged - or should I say entitled?
happy
3 years ago
Theft, fraud, forgery and breach of trust
"In the late 1950s, Stupich set up and controlled the Nanaimo Commonwealth Holding Society, which raised funds on behalf of the NDP."
"But after a tip that something was amiss from the head of the Nanaimo Commonwealth Bingo Association, RCMP launched an investigation. It found Stupich ran kickback schemes in which donations to charities were refunded to NCHS. In 1999, Stupich, then 77, faced 64 charges, including theft, fraud, forgery and breach of trust. He pleaded guilty that year to fraud and running an illegal lottery, involving the misappropriation of about $1 million from the NCHS. He was sentenced to two years, serving it on electronic monitoring at his daughter's home in Nanaimo."
Have it your way West, this was obviously a Campbell dirty trick, as you put it. Hey, it was only a million bucks and the poor guy was in bad health. Neocon witch hunt written all over it. Do your lawyer friends work for the Pivot Legal Society by chance?
jimmy_laroux
3 years ago
Capital costs and GAAP
Luke Skywalker:
It's not "hanky panky", it's simply a product of the accounting system the Ministry of Finance uses, i.e. GAAP. Thus the Auditor General signing off. So why this dramatic difference between operating surplus and change in Provincial Debt?
http://www.bcbudget.gov.bc.ca/2008/bfp/default.aspx?hash=24
So, under GAAP, the current year's capital costs are not included in the calculation of the operating surplus (or debt, as the case may be). But unless one is familiar with an arcane accounting standard (which comprises two dense volumes, including a total of ~3000 pages), this is not immediately obvious. "Surplus" is usually equated with "decrease in debt", which is, in fact, the literal definition of "surplus".
According to the Mistry of Finance:
http://www.fin.gov.bc.ca/OCG/pa/07_08/PublicAccounts.pdf
So, according to the Ministry of Finance, both the total and taxpayer-supported debt increased last year. The number you gave included sinking fund investments (included in the Summary Financial Statements debt), which the Ministry does not include when calculating total debt.
Fiat lux
3 years ago
Both Campbell and Harper are
Both Campbell and Harper are puppets controlled by special interests.
The only difference between them is that Campbell has no brains and has been on strings all his life, while Harper is a programmed, high tech puppet, fed on faith based idiocies burped up by some "prophets".
I always find it quite funny when some are complaining about certain influence the unions may have on NDP policies, totally disregarding the total control of major political parties by the multinational corporate mafia.
From what I read in the officially released figures, the NDP receives only a small fraction of its monies from unions, the vast majority from individuals, while the BCLibs and the rest of the Reform crowd are paid and owned by corporations, with only a small part of the money coming from real people.
Democracy? What's that? The Dow Chemical Corp. is about to sue Canada under the Chapter 11 clause for the banning of some of its chemicals for home use in PQ.
And these NAFTA suits are handled in secrecy, without any public information, not only for damages, but hoped for profits lost for unmpteen years ahead.
So, who is in charge? Elected governments, unions, of the multinational mafia ?
The one thing we can be certain of is that before Campbell utters a single word, he has to get permission from his masters.
His 10 points are the best proof.
Ed Deak.
G West
3 years ago
happy
Like I said - if you want a real conversation and care about understanding why I think (and believe) the things I do I'm prepared to share that information with you privately.
I see you haven't responded to my offer.
I guess my original conclusion about you was correct.
In short, you don't know what you're talking about and your interests here have nothing much to do with actually learning anything.
And you're more interested in throwing mud than cleaning it up.
Too bad really.
G West
3 years ago
If you really want a laugh
Pick up a copy of the Globe and have a look at the editorial entitled:
[b]A premier who planned ahead[b]
Who do they get to write such things. In Mid September the Gordo said everything was coming up roses and he cancelled the Fall Session.
Now he's scrambling like a newborn fawn on ice because the cupboard is bare and most of his P3s are in the same kind of danger as the folks who bought out INTRAWEST last fall.
I wonder what his stock portfolio looks like this morning?
Remember this is the same guy who once promised never to sign on for a pension - now it may be all he has left.
Skywalker
3 years ago
Happy
If the best you can do is muck around an event that took place more than 30 years ago to beat up the NDP then be my guest. I suppose we could all use our space to write about the Socred scandals during that same period but it hardly matters after all this time. There was a paragraph in the Parks Report that said ALL parties were deficient in their reporting during that time. Campbell promised to look into the liberal/socred records but conveniently never did. So you might give that old song a rest. It wasn't anywhere close to a million bucks and all the money the NDP got from NCHS it paid back.
None of the money was even proven to have benefitted anyone other than the many shareholders of NCHS who had lost substantial amounts in real estate investments. Harcourt made the mistake of caving into opposition ranting after the RCMP was finished with its investigation by hiring Ron Parks to again sift through the entrails the same as you keep doing. If we went through your financial records enough times I am sure that we could find an irregularity that you, because memory fades, could not explain.
But be Happy. It suits.
Skywalker
3 years ago
And furthermore Happy...
..the case was dismissed, repeat DISMISSED! All the judge said was that forcasts can not always be accurate. You remember wrong. It figures.
egmont rapids
3 years ago
Luke Skywalker
Did you catch the 8.30 am to 9.00 am time slot on Bill Good this morning--
Bill wanted people to comment on the news outfits playing Campbell`s 12 minute (speech)
Lets say that that the callers were less than impressed with the MSM and even less impressed with Campbell`s pep talk.
The impression the majority of the province got from Campbell is---The man is de-void of any ideas, what can Campbell offer,some puny tax cuts only to be stolen back 4 times by BC Hydro,ICBC,Translink and carbon taxes.
Does Campbell need help with some ideas?
here`s one--Mandate fish farms onto the land with tax incentives to help the cost--It would create work at every fish farm
How about reducing the property transfer tax in half or remove it all together.
How about removing the PST from all home improvement lumber and hardware?
I have many more ideas but I won`t display them here for there are many paid Liberals monitors on this site.
Anyways I love seeing Campbell in panick mode,perhaps he should hire another 200 media monitors/liars !
reallife
3 years ago
Deferred revenue
Quote:
Deferred Revenue
As in money BC will make but hasn't yet.
Actually, the opposite is true. This is money the province has already collected for a future right. The province receives billions from auctions of oil and gas drilling rights. The rights typically persist for 5 or 10 years so the GAAP accounting rules require the revenue to be spread over the 5 or 10 year period.
Quote:
Ya better report any "hanky panky" to the Auditor-General or to the credit rating agencies, if ya think otherwise.
The recording of money from oil and gas drilling rights as deferred revenue is a fairly recent requirement imposed by the auditors to ensure BC is compliant with GAAP. GAAP provides a consistent set of accounting rules and allows rating agencies to fairly compare companies and organizations by the same set of standards.
Wilfred Laurier
3 years ago
Next May
The only measure will really be next May. The Premier could give free milk for children and the hardcore left would scream at him for it.
Meanwhile, Carole James has yet to supply any of is a workable platform alternative.
Campbell is a wily politician. He knows how to get elected. He can get enough of the swing to win. He will simply ask voters this:
"In times of economic uncertainty, do you want an NDP government?"
Of course, the left in BC has already decided that they are going to win. But the always decide that. If I had listened to them, we would be in a one party state.
The fact is, the hard left still controls the BC NDP. This is what is keeping in out of office. Carole James tried to move the party to the centre but was not successful. She was elected leader as a puppet of the BCGEU and the BCFed and they are firmly in control of her and party. This will keep her out of office.
G West
3 years ago
Absolutely reallife
But you have to remember that some people thing that THE GAAP is just a mis-spelling of a unisex clothier's brand.
In actual fact, all that cash in the kitty can be very misleading to ordinary folks who don't understand the difference between the income statement, the balance sheet and the statement of cash flows. A firm - or a country - can be up to its navel in cash and near-cash assets and still be heading for a very hard fall indeed. Something not usually noted in either the business pages or the headlines.
Our friends should not forget the fate of the Weimar Republic...the down side of running the printing presses overtime can be hyper inflation...and there's a lot of evidence that's where the Federal Reserve and the Bank of Canada are leading the unwary taxpayer.
egmont rapids
3 years ago
This is a must read story
By far this link to harvey Oberfeld --His story is the best peice of truth telling by any MSM I have seen or read in years!
My hats off to Mr. Oberfeld
http://harveyoberfeld.ca/blog/?p=111
G West
3 years ago
I don't know who is going to 'win' Wilf
In fact, given the mess the economy is in I'm not even sure that 'win' is the appropriate term for what the party with the most seats in May will inherit.
I do know that all my political experience has taught me is that opposition parties don't win elections - incumbents lose them...I believe however, that your claim about the pervasive influence of labour on the NDP is dead wrong.
I think if you'll check, the policy on affilation delegates was changed at Convention in the fall of 2005.
Mind you, critics of the NDP have never had a very high tolerance for truth and accuracy.
Now, could we discuss the make-up of the corporate donor list to the BC LIberal Party?
Wilfred Laurier
3 years ago
Perhaps
Perhaps you are correct, GWest. But I am not sure if your opinion is correct. If it is, British Columbians have only been unhappy with their government four times since 1948.
egmont rapids
3 years ago
Wilfred--HUH
I am amazed of posters like you making the claim that it is bad for goverment to support workers!
You would rather see billions of dollars leave the province in the form of corporate profits.
Money to unions and workers does far more for an economy than outsourcing to Liberal doners.
IE --The new ferries should have been built here.
Run of river-If we were to proceed,BC hydro should do them!
I will give you another economic lesson Wilfred--
The 33% reduction in ferry fares--If 33% more people travel on the ferries because of the reduction it will cost BC Ferries NOTHING---In fact the province would be farther ahead with all the spin off money--gas,food,repairs,shopping etc etc etc
I would say that if BC ferries cut the fares by 1/2 ---The province and coastal retailers would be farther ahead financially.
The Campbell doctrine--Charge fees to the point of diminshing returns!
Unfortunatly Wilfred--You like many other right/leaning posters,can`t think outside of the box!
Fiat lux
3 years ago
Wilfred......What the hell
Wilfred......What the hell is the "hard left"?
Are you happy with the Bilderbergers and the Trilaterals controlling the world, fixing prices, and with the fact that Tom d'Aquino has been the real PM of Canada for over 20 years ?
Ed Deak.
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
egmont rapids...
Then why did ya vote for the right-wing Reform party... er Tory party federally??? Heck I don't even go there. ;)
egmont rapids
3 years ago
Luke Skywalker
Why introduce a straw man argument luke?
Were not talking about Harper, I like this minority federal goverment,Dion`s platform was wrong, May`s platform was worse.
Harper was the man for the job.
The NDP WILL be a player in the next federal election.
Harper hasn`t sold out the country like Campbell has sold out BC
If Harper leans too far right in this term I will vote him out!
And finally, the federal Liberals hadn`t learned their lessons yet,still too many old tired guard in the federal Liberal party.
sirjohna
3 years ago
'Of course, the left in BC
'Of course, the left in BC has already decided that they are going to win.'
and when they don't win they spend the next four years bitching and whining about why they SHOULD HAVE WON. very sad this group. everybody's wrong except them.
egmont rapids
3 years ago
Sirjohna and Wilfred
You guys or gals must be cousins!
Perhaps a little substance might beef up your posts.
If the MSM even came close to critizing Campbell like they went after the NDP forever, the election wouldn`t even be close!
P.S.---Luke Skywalker--Vaugn and Keith both stated today on CKNW-- "Campbell will lose both bi-elections"
Cheers Luke--cash or certified cheque!
jimmy_laroux
3 years ago
Deferred Revenue
reallife:
Ah, my mistake. Thanks for the correction!
egmont rapids
3 years ago
It appears the Province newspaper is coming back to life!
Another media outfit tells it like it is!
http://www.canada.com/shareit/soundoff/post.html?id=90258bd6-6dcd-4bba-877e-7bdb51a99e33
sirjohna
3 years ago
'Perhaps a little substance
'Perhaps a little substance might beef up your posts'
are you calling the rhetorical blather that you guys throw around here substance? i've never heard so many 'ifs' since rudyard kiplings day.
egmont rapids
3 years ago
I try again/great Province editorial
http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/editorial/story.html?id=90258bd6-6dcd-4bba-877e-7bdb51a99e33
G West
3 years ago
sirjohna
I had no idea you were that ancient El.
Kipling died in 1936...but his 'day' was the end of the Victorian/Edwardian era - I'm surprised you're still around and marginally sentient.
Although Orwell has denied that Kipling was a fascist, he certainly didn't hesitate to call him on much of what the man believed.
"It is no use pretending that Kipling's view of life, as a whole, can be accepted or even forgiven by any civilized person. It is no use claiming, for instance, that when Kipling describes a British soldier beating a ‘nigger’ with a cleaning rod in order to get money out of him, he is acting merely as a reporter and does not necessarily approve what he describes. There is not the slightest sign anywhere in Kipling's work that he disapproves of that kind of conduct — on the contrary, there is a definite strain of sadism in him, over and above the brutality which a writer of that type has to have. Kipling is a jingo imperialist, he is morally insensitive and aesthetically disgusting."
from: Critical Essays, 1946 by George Orwell.
I'm surprised he's a favourite of yours.
zalm
3 years ago
LOL!
Gawd, Bob the Cat you make me laugh out loud! Keep it coming.
I'll take the package. Only, can you make my signed photo of the CEO the one with the booking numbers and the glazed look in his eyes?
Wilfred Laurier
3 years ago
Victory
Well, I guess I am flummoxed and misled. All that Carole has to do is pick the colour scheme of the Premier's office.
It's a sure thing, a done deal.
Just like Prime Minster Layton was two weeks ago.
sirjohna
3 years ago
thanks for the orwell
thanks for the orwell passage g. 'bout time you provided something useful.
zalm
3 years ago
Leftofcentre
"Look, I'm a left-of-centre guy like a lot of people here. But even with my university economics courses, I know that governments either choose to live within their means or they don't. The Tories in Ottawa and the Liberals in Ontario are committing political suicide by running deficits."
I dunno, I think you should go back and re-read Keynes again. There's no suicide in evening out the swings and vagaries of political economy. Our governments may lack discipline, but hey, everybody makes a mistake or two the first time out. Let's check in a hundred years.
zalm
3 years ago
Luke
"I'm just watching Voice of BC right now and Finance Minister Colin Hansen is Vaughn Palmer's guest.
I guess I also learn something new every day as well!!!!
Of the 103 tax cuts that the provincial government has implemented since 2001, the NDP has voted against each one in the BC legislature."
Well, seeing as I'm working hard for my money, rather than having my money work hard for me (dig-dig), I don't have time to watch Vaughn.
But when you do phone in to cheer on your favourite Minister of Finance, Luke, perhaps you cold remind Vaughn of what his comments were back on July 3rd this year when Vaughn wrote up this year's report of BC Statistics Agency when they said that BC's economy is only lipstick on a terminal patient, and has been that way from the mid 1990s right through 2007.
Palmer:
" "B.C. businesses have not invested as much (per capita) in new plant and equipment as those in most other parts of the country. In 2007, only the Atlantic provinces invested less in new machinery and equipment, per capita."
"Resource and goods-producing industries down. Exports in decline. Private sector investment stagnant. So what accounts for the good news on the economic front? Provincial growth is mainly a result of the boom in residential construction, the thriving service sector and government spending, according to BC Stats. "More troubling," the agency says, "is the fact that during this period of relatively strong growth, the necessary foundation for future economic growth in the province has not been laid." Hard to imagine a less flattering verdict on the B.C. Liberals' time in office, given the emphasis they put on creating the right conditions for growth and investment."
"Looking ahead, the agency says "B.C.'s economy faces some serious challenges. The province's relatively strong economic growth and labour market conditions mask some fundamental weaknesses in the economy. "If the province is to continue to enjoy strong growth in the future, the underlying causes of some of the weaknesses will need to be addressed. Otherwise, British Columbia could see itself falling even further behind the rest of Canada."
I can smell the sweet smell of fudge cooking up from here.....
sirjohna
3 years ago
is it naivete, immaturity or
is it naivete, immaturity or both? everyone that disagrees, be it media types, political scientists or pundits, is a part of a grand conspiracy whose goal is to bring down the ndp. grow up guys. it's not 1969 anymore.
zalm
3 years ago
Trolls
ahh, SirJohnA and Wilfred Laurier out from under the bridge at the same time. Getting a little hungry?
Funny how you guys always show up together....
sirjohna
3 years ago
of course. we're a part of
of course. we're a part of the grand conspiracy.
Fiat lux
3 years ago
Of course, we're all part
Of course, we're all part and victims of a grand conspiracy.
The word originates with the Latin "cum spiro", or "breathing together"
Which means that all associations, businesses, clubs, political parties etc. etc are forms of conspiracies.
Today the world's economic systems are controlled by a few multinationals, depressing prices paid to producers, while increasing them to consumers. The same with minimum wages and only part time jobs all over.
The global food market is owned and controlled by about 3 corporations, with Cargill being probably the biggest, but our Royal Windsor family is also one of the top players and they don't have to report anything.
There's a great food shortage with tens of millions starving to death every year, while the profits of these corporations double. Look at the profits of Cargill and Monsanto.
Meat prices are going up in the stores every day, while ranchers are receiving half of what they were getting for their animals 10 years ago, through price fixing by the corporate mafia, with Cargill's fingers deep in the pie, while ranchers are going bellyup all over.
Gas prices are also going through the roof, while the oil companies doubled their profits in a year.
The stock and money markets are controlled by a few major players, designed mainly to get control of the world's resources.
If these are not conspiracies what are they ? What are the Bilderbergers and the World Economic Forum talking about in their secret meetings every year, if not about world control? How about the plans for microchip implants into newborn babies, for total control?
Ed Deak,
Bailey
3 years ago
the fudge is done
As soon as they were elected, the Liberals enacted some draconian changes in the way the books are kept.
As well as, as someone above noticed, the forward averaging of debt scheme that allows debt to be declared at a small fraction of it's value by utilizing a front by way of P3, they also have ceased to account for highways or ferries by pretending third parties own them in a similar way.
Even though we still pay all the bills plus extra fees, we never get to see those bills anymore, do we?
Hydro too, to a lesser extent, seems to be being kept off the public books.
It's hardly necessary for Campbell or anyone else to fudge the budget while they keep the books like this. Hard indeed to show anything BUT a huge surplus when all your expenses are hidden, except those minor items you think don't matter.
DPL
3 years ago
My goodness, a possible 60
My goodness, a possible 60 dollar a year tax cut. How exciting. A couple of weeks ago I was sent with a prescription to Queen Alexanders a place run by VIHA for two braces to aid my recovery from spinal surgery, Just before leaving the place I was told the price was 750 per brace. How did I intend to pay? My big tax cut will take a lot of years to recover the cost of those things. Rave on Gordo fans. Bottom line is, many things like physio, massage and some other services are no longer even partially covered by Gordo's health management teams. The deductable for our family for precription drugs went from 200 bucks to around 1500.There are two people in our immediate family King Gordo is really a saint as he helps us along. Just watch when he moves his lips, you will know he is spinning the issues.
happy
3 years ago
Easy there people
Mr West
Show a little patience and consideration please. I'll send you a note - in my own good time. I'm working 12 hour nightshifts right now and I'm away from home. Not everybody fits into a box.
Skywalker
I love the way you rationalize the way that NCHS stole a million dollars. It was only to repay NDP insiders that lost their investments due to circumstances beyond their control so no harm done. Good, so its ok then. I certainly will remember that one next time you rant off about Liberal policies. That its ok to steal.
Oh, BTW. DID the full amount get repaid to the Charities?
And I'm not wrong about what Judge Mary Humphries stated about Critical Information being Withheld from the Public
switek
3 years ago
Gordo's setting the stage
To me this was just classic Campbell setting the stage for the upcoming election.
He says he wants to “accelerate” some major infrastructure programs to stimulate the economy. Translation ? What he really means is that he will push his pet projects forward; and after all there is an election coming right?
He next says he will have to “re-evaluate” spending. Translation? What he really means is that the projects for political reasons he does not want to do; he will simply say we cannot afford them.
Next thing you hear is a bunch of talk about the Port Mann Bridge from Falcon. Carole James opposes the Port Mann project and there just so happens to be some fresh new seats over in Surrey. Anyone else see the pattern here ?
I think Campbell just laid down the template to selectively actually make that politically move money (aka mega projects) around BC wherever Campbell sees fit. I’ll be curious where the projects end up in relation to all those new seats up for grabs.
Carole James meanwhile continues to look like a deer in the headlights. How much longer can she continue to criticize Gordo and yet promise she won’t change any of his policy ? It’s just like the nonsense opposing the carbon tax but promising that she will keep the tax cuts. What kind of drugs is she on ? How do you criticize tax cuts but then promise you will not raise taxes ? I predict she will suffer a similar fate to Dion. We need Corky.
RickW
3 years ago
Well, the Helmsman on the Ship of State.....
...it turns out, ran a deficit BEFORE "the troubles", and now Finance Minister Flaherty is saying "no problems, mateys!"
So it's only "fair" that Campbell be allowed his little deficit, if the "big boys" can have one............
G West
3 years ago
We'll see happy
My reaction was not so much to the absence of a response via other channels as to your continuation of the same old tired arguments in this channel - please look up thread 18 and 20 hours before this one and you'll see what I mean....
I hadn't said another thing relative to the points we were discussing - you just took up the cudgels (I'd assert) and set to in the same old way.
As I've said before, I prefer rational discussion - but I'm no pacifist.
happy
3 years ago
But West
Tired old arguments you say. Fine. Then tell the Tyee not to invite responses like that by way of the title of this thread itself. What did you expect.
ROBBINS Sce Research
3 years ago
If one reads the posts under
If one reads the posts under this article--which reflect opinion, facts, conjecture and other good stuff--it appears that the BC Liberals are dying and the BC NDP will win by default and few will be satisfied.
How is it possible (and I have my own opinions on this) that in the midst of the reality of tougher economic times--if the 'average' of the political thoughts under this article is estimated--that the prospects of a planned way out seem almost futile and the invisible hand of corporatism/Hobbs will be left to decide our BC fate.
Why does politics in this province always seem to be so desperate--pathetic--leaderless and yet, accepted?
I'm asking--is there any hope--or have we moved to nothing works and "who gives a shit"?
With CanWest stock in the toilet (no equity no leverage), CTV (Bell Global) scrambling to ensure that the Olympics don't blow a hole in their financials---and demand for enormous investments in the province prior to these Games---while we talk crumbs we need Angel Food cake resources--how can BC's Toronto media partners of political leaders manage to pull the wool over everyone eyes--to the extent 'they' need to--to make this happen?
I don't think 'they' can--but 'they' will try-- and I bet this is going to be very unattractive--.
The ugliest part of politics is trying to sell a contest that has few if any interesting elements to it.
Where is Johnny Booth of the Forbes theatre group when you need him?
egmont rapids
3 years ago
Mr. Rassell/SCE Research
I read your commentary weekly/very wise.
The world`s most accurate pollster!
We have both been around a while,as had many of the posters above.
I have used a couple of your observations in my posts,most notably
"Once that levee of public support breaks,nothing can bring it back"
One of your commentaries went something like that.
Campbell shot off a bazooka and killid the coq tolls,Campbell couldn`t budge his plunging poll numbers
Campbell used fear and sprayed a tommy gun worth of goodies on wensday night,still the poll numbers won`t budge.
Campbell would be well served to keep out of the public eye,the more people see him,hear him,smell him,the angrier people get.
His ego is so bloated he thinks he can single handidly change the polls,he can`t!
Campbell will bombard with ads,announcements,photo-ops, yet he won`t move the poll numbers.
Campbell has gored almost everyones ox in this province.
People are licking their chops waiting to zing Campbell.
The media is fighting a losing battle, very soon the media will abandon Campbell--
FOR EVEN THE ASPER FAMILY KNOW NOT TO WAGER MONEY ON A HORSE NAMED GLUE.
CHEERS
Bobby Peru
3 years ago
Nice try at baking Fudge
I was wondering when Tyee would recycle the NDP's fudge it budget into the Liberal version. But, if you care to recall the history, the NDP, under Glenn Clark, (which I don't see many of you BC leftists defending- come on I thought he was one of you) engaged in such reckless spending through the 90s and their term that they simply had to play with the accounting. And don't forget all this occurred in the middle of a strong North American stock market and economy. Relatively speaking, the NDP made BC perform terribly.
Now the Liberals can afford some deficit spending because they racked up surpluses and reduced the NDP's deficit over the years. In fact, it's this kind of uncertain economy which govts should prepare for.
I can see on these postings there's an avalanche of hatred for the Liberals and Campbell- hatred at why avg voters don't hate them as much and why avg working people can't understand that the NDP is the better alternative. The NDP ought to get some policies worth supporting and elect a leader that can capture the public imagination. Someone who is more of a technocrat than a firebrand leftist who runs the same old tired play book fermenting class warfare.
happy
3 years ago
I don't think Corky would take the job
Rafe Mair Online May 2005
Current NDP member Corky Evans summarized the dwindling days of the NDP quite well in this quote: “In our hysteria to deal with the recession we tried to bribe capital into saving us – but it didn’t work. It didn’t work with aluminium smelters. It didn’t work with the jobs and timber accord. It didn’t work with the fast ferries that we thought we could sell to the world. It didn’t work with the amusement park on Burns Bog. It didn’t work with the trade and convention centre in Vancouver. It hasn’t turned a single wheel yet.”
I forgot about that amusement park in Burns Bog... :)
ME2
3 years ago
Keynes
Zalm, I agree with you that those who blast Keynesian deficit spending should go back to the books and understand what his plan consists of. And incidentally, Keynes disliked Socialism.
Simply stated, his idea is to use Government money to "prime the pump" to restart the flow of money within the economy, and once that is achieved - once the economy is "healthy" - to tax that money back.
Although the neocon Corporados see nothing wrong with gov't gifting money in various ways for them to spend, (such as tax cuts) they reject gov't telling them how to spend it, and refuse to accept any requirement to pay it back.
And this is the way it's been for at least the last thirty years, and all the while neocon economists have been assuring us that these tax cuts flow back into the economy, enriching it and us.
And so it should have, had not the Corporatists declared outright around 1980 that Capital owes nothing to its country of origin. The result of that reasoning has been an outflow of Capital out of the country - necessitating the supposed need for Foreign Investment - but without that achieving much investment in new plant, R&D, etc.
The result for ordinary people has been a constant decrease in real income, loss of job stabiliy, a dramatic increase in the working hours needed to stay afloat, and a ballooning increase in the spread between the rich and the poor, among other things.
And now we are told we can no longer afford our Social Safety Net.
Now we find out that instead of investing their profits in productive business anywhere, these astute money managers have been investing in the various schemes of the easy-money derivatives market, ensuring multi-million dollar bonuses for themselves.
So now the whole house of cards has collapsed, with Federal governments having to step in and replace with public cash the "dividends" these knowing crooks have siphoned off.
This is, of course, the first half of the "hated" Keynesian solution. The interesting thing to watch for will be seeing who will be fingered for the unavoidable other half of the solution, the tax-back.
Now why do I think I already know who THAT will be?
G West
3 years ago
I expected - from you
Rationality. It's your claim to fame - remember?
The government of this province since 2001 has plenty of scabs to pick - McMartin simply pointed out, in a very rational and empirical way, how that can be done.
You, and the other usual suspects, seem incapable of doing anything but living in the more distant past.
All of those questions are - especially from a legal point of view - highly debatable and contentious. We’ve been there before – it’s boring and I’d like to move beyond that – you seemed willing but are apparently not quite yet ready to give up the polemics.
What is happening in the here and now and the effects of the current Campbell regime are the only real questions to be addressed.
The rest is history and every reasonable academic I know of says you can’t even ‘think’ of writing the history of any era at a remove of less than 50 years - what we are dealing with here is the future and the present – and the political.
I think we should stick to it.
The other questions end up being little more than an opportunity for sloganeering.
In August the Canadian Exchequer went $1.7 billion in the hole - I think there is every evidence that, Gordon Campbell's little speech the other night to the contrary, this province will shortly be doing the same.
Those commenters here of a critical vein who have done NOTHING but excoriate a former administration for running deficits (alleged or otherwise) can hardly complain if the conjunction is NOW being brought to their attention.
Fiat lux
3 years ago
Keynes worked under and with
Keynes worked under and with the gold standards, when the money supply was strictly limited and enforced.
With bank deregulation money creation became a criminal racket, used to take over control of the world's economy by an oligopoly of bona fide crooks, who now can account their thievery as "earnings" and get away with it.
In short, whatever the old prophets of economics have written and said 70 or 200 years ago has absolutely no use, or context in the present age and situation.
What these crooks have done was to copy the precedent set by Hitler's financial genius Hjalmar Schacht, who created a booming German economy with imaginary, fiat money, in an Europe still suffering at the bottom of a a great depression.
Many countries have refused to accept Deutschmarks at the time, but now, encouraged by their miseducated and brainwashed economists, Harper being one of them, they all are hooked on this imaginary money creation racket that gave their citizens the power to spend recklessly and into debt slavery and some corporations to buy total control .
I'm not in favour of the gold standards, but fiat money creation should be returned to and under strict public control and governments must inform and educate the public that there are limits.
When the banks were deregulated, I made the following definition: "With bank deregulation money has become a licence for energy control issued by a special interest class for its own benefit"
This can not be permitted to go on, because there's a good chance that the present crash has been planned by the major players for a long time to force humanity into a depression and to beg for a global corporate dictatorship, with the NAFTA and the EU being the first steps.
Ed Deak. Big Lake.
RickW
3 years ago
Robbins
I'm asking--is there any hope--or have we moved to nothing works and "who gives a shit"?
No matter who I talk to, down here at the bottom of the foodchain, virtually ALL believe this (and all other) so-called "crises" are contrived and/or manipulated by "them" (fill in who you prefer), and that explanations from the likes of Finance Minister Flaherty (as well as Hanson) invariably involve the invocation of the "trickle down theory", which means those at the bottom get it in the neck, no matter how "sound the fundamentals are".
And so, we don't believe them (but we're not at that stage yet where we take to the streets with pitchforks and torches).
RickW
3 years ago
Bobby, Bobby, Bobby
Have you so quickly "disremembered" the fallout from the S&L crisis:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savings_and_Loan_crisis
and how it led to the near-collapse of Asian economies, all of which impinged on the BC economy under both the Socreds and the NDP?
And considering that Glen scooted right smartly over to Jimmy (as his reward for derailing the BC "socialists") should be telling you something other than the rote you insist on posting.
egmont rapids
3 years ago
Bobby Peru
I certainly don`t mind you critiziing goverments of 8 years ago.
Please try to stick to the facts!
Fact #1--Campbell surpluses are presently hidden where?
#2 ---BC debt under Campbell has gone up/its gone up big time!
#3---Service levels have been reduced with--health,education,childrens services,WCB has been gutted bankrupting thousands of permanatly injured workers,social services
#4---I have argued with-Rman/Murdoch/LUKE Skywalker about the rising BC debt/not to mention the BC P3 obligations
Those moniters/posters --And Hansen use the argument about debt to GDP ratio!
I keep telling those braniacs that debt keep rising,the debt is still there and---GDPs RISE and FALL---Presently BCs GDP is in the biggest free fall in BC history!
Campbell`s 2 saving graces his goverment has had are--
#1-- 1 billion plus dollars a year from property transfer fees--That gravy train is over and over for years to come!
#2--OIL and GAS revenue, the numbers are big but--Unlike forestry,the big oil and gas money don`t trickle down to the towns or the people--A billion dollars from forestry does more good for the people then 3 billion in oil and gas!
I got one more biggy for all of you,I have been saving it.
The 500 million over budget trade and convention center!
The VTCC---needs to run at 85% capacity to make any money--Well with world business contracting,tourism contracting, the VTCC--will never ever pay for its construction.
And it will have operating deficits in the 10s of millions every year for a decade.
American businesses that will be holding conventions in the near future will be pressured to hold them in the USA, they will be offered deep discounts to hold them in --VEGAS--CHICAGO--NEW YORK--LA--SAN DIEGO--ATLANTA --etc etc etc
Fast ferries---HAH--can you say boondoggle VTCC--THE 3 NEW shake rattle and fuel gulping defective and now docked foreign built ferries.
Please don`t even get me started on the enviroment!
Fiat lux
3 years ago
Costs can not be cut only
Costs can not be cut only transferred........
Does anybody else remember when Wacky Bennett declared BC "debt free" in the late 60s and shot a flaming arrow into a pile of alleged documents on a barge tied up at Kelowna ?
Of course, the papers didn't catch fire and somebody had to swim out and light them with a match.
When Bennett was told that there were all kinds of debts left, he replied that those weren't debts, but "contingent liabilities".'
Just as the present PPPs aren't debts, even if the public has to pay for them through the nose, much higher rates than on simple bankloans.
The whole economic system is built on fraud and people are still swallowing it, even when it stares into their faces.
Ed Deak.
ME2
3 years ago
Ed Deak
Referring to your response re Keynes, it is true that Keynes' remedy was devised in the days when every dollar was backed by Gold, and so when one shifted money around in those days, you shifted something real, and could expect predictable results.
Your simple reminder that our modern "fiat" dollar is based on nothing but promises thus explains to me why I've been unable to feel any real confidence in the bailout schemes underway, even while I was prompted to post above my understanding of why the Keynesian solution should work.
Clearly, until the world can find a medium of exchange that is trustable, nothing is going to work, and we'll remain in the soup.
Skywalker
3 years ago
Happy
Your spinning falshoods about NCHS almost boggles the mind.. You claim that the NDP got "a million dollars" and that it went to "insiders" is not supported by any evidence. It all a figment of your imagination or something you heard from the liberal spin machine. The NDP paid back any money it got from the organization. As I recall that was something in the range of $80,000. That is all the could be identified as going to the BC NDP So to qoute you "the next time you rant off about Liberal policies" I will remind you or how accurate you have been in the past. It is not OK to steal. Nor is it OK to blatantly lie and not support your statements with facts. If after the RCMP had their go at the books, Ron Parks couldn't find any more don't you think that maybe you are dreaming a bit. The organization was not a part of the BC NDP even though it had some party members from Nanaimo running it. Your extension of responsibility for things done by party members should then also apply to the Basi/Virk case. And, "not wrong about what Judge Mary Humphries stated about Critical Information being Withheld from the Public"? Oh yes you are, but your comment about information being withheld would certainly apply to the Basi/Virk case.
But be Happy. It certainly suits.
ROBBINS Sce Research
3 years ago
Egmont--for accuracy my name
Egmont--for accuracy my name is Glen P. Robbins and my company ROBBINS Sce Research (1998) handles all of the polling questions---including yes a manipulative one here and there--and either I or my daughter Kellie incorporates the feedback into the hodgepodge commentary. Some of it is ours some of it from respondents.
Mr. Van Rassel is a sponsor of the polls and as such does not participate in questions (he has but very rarely) or the commentary. That was always the Rule--so that there wasn't a conflict in the influence--. This became particularly necessary as Mr. Van Rassel considered running for political office (he is seeking election as a Coquitlam city councillor).
There are one heckofalotof smart people that come to this site--so I am sincerely flattered that you read our work and repeat it.
The next generation of mainstream publishing will look more like my polls--this site and other writing where the advertising and accounting departments do NOT relate whatsoever to what is written
I can tell you--that what is most interesting is who joins you on our site.
As a longtime conservative (personally) I have considered running with the New Democrats as a candidate in the next provincial election--(I have retained all of my teeth). Do you think they would have me or would the public service and the unions scotch the deal?
egmont rapids
3 years ago
Sorry about the confusion/SCE
I am not much for names,thus the confusion as to who writes your commentary at SCE Research.
And some of your/SCE research questions are -Well lets say a little leading.
Certainly no more leading then say/ Pembina or the BOYS ON HOWE STREET(The Innovative Group) or Ipsos Reid/There was a Ipsos Reid poll last month that was buried.
Ipsos Reid became a very unbelievable polling outfit since they partnered up with Canwest Global.
http://www.ipsos-na.com/news/pressrelease.cfm?id=2838
As for you running for the NDP,maybe your daughter would have a better chance,unless you can get into the TRANSGENDER CATAGORY
No insult intended/That is one stupid NDP policy,maybe Carole will rescind that.(soon I hope)
ROBBINS Sce Research
3 years ago
Bobby my brother---I am not
Bobby my brother---I am not so sure we aren't as far away from pitchforks et al as you might think.
Once the bail-out in the United States was pronounced----and Canada skirted through a quicky election--and muttered something about 25 billion (was it for homeless--or the banks--I am not sure)--but someone or something is getting 25 billion and I hear some of my friends and family members are choking on their investment accounts---through the mist of I've got mine--ooops now I don't quite-- despair of the middle class I can see light at the end of the tunnel of my dream--employing homeless people and others in need on telephones throughout the world asking real people real questions about real life--and publishing real answers.
Madness? Maybe--but these are different times--right now--we have only had a couple of months of this 'reality' and once it wears on a few more--and a few more--let's have that pitchfork discussion.
It reminds of a incident that I was involved in at Coquitlam Centre mall seven years ago. A drug addicted person sneaks into a back window of a store and steals $40.00 from the female clerk's purse. This woman had taken a minimum wage job to get enough money to buy her husband a birthday gift. The woman screams--I'm in another store---the other 20 men in the store do nothing--so I can't take it--and go after the guy. I find him in a department store call him out he runs I tackle him. He's all sweaty nervous and hangs his head while security comes. The police come. they let him go--and I see him when I am with my wife and kids the next day driving on Canada Way in Burnaby.
My point is he is sick desperate and drug addicted and he is robbing a working women scraping some bucks together for her husband's gift- a gesture of love. I don't believe I had felt that sad in many years. I was no hero--there were no heroes--just one poor desperate person robbing another.
Maybe the pitchfork idea is one whose time has come.
reallife
3 years ago
Egmont Rapids
Quote:
#2--OIL and GAS revenue, the numbers are big but--Unlike forestry,the big oil and gas money don`t trickle down to the towns or the people--A billion dollars from forestry does more good for the people then 3 billion in oil and gas!
I do not understand the rationale for this statement. The oil and gas revenue is money the government receives from production royalties, auctions of oil and gas rights and oil and gas rights rentals. I assume the forestry revenue you mention is also money paid to the province (for stumpage?). Seems to me that a dollar is a dollar regardless of the revenue source and the government does not differentiate by origin when it comes to spending the money.
Fiat lux
3 years ago
Robbins, The unions have
Robbins,
The unions have virtually no voice in the NDP and many, if not most, unionists still vote Reform. Witness the 55% of Dick Harris in Pr.G, Cariboo, in 4 union towns.
Where does this propaganda originate that the unions are controlling the NDP? Look at the donation figures to all parties. They show the true picture.
We have 2 excellent, hard working and effective NDP MLA's here, after years of useless BCLib seatwarmers.
One of them was BCLib, the other PC in the past. But they saw the light, moved over and we'll do our best to have them re-elected.
I'm a dedicated private enterpriser, business owner in BC for 51 years, never had anything to do with any union, and also a member of the NDP, as I can see the others turning fascists to please their corporate owners.
Ed Deak.
egmont rapids
3 years ago
Realife
What your missing with that statement about oil and gas revenue against forestry revenue is
Forestry activity brings towns to life,money in people`s pockets,loggers,truckers,millers,pulp, paper,firewood,
The spin-off is incredible.
The same thing for wild salmon,when we used to have wild salmon all over the province the private boating world was wild,
Boats everywhere,fishers everywhere,Campbell river,horseshoe bay,pender harbour,port alberni, --The spin off money from a large,now extinct wild salmon was incredible
Oil and Gas--Sure the Province gets money but the spin off into local/rural economies is puny in comparisan to logging.
The same thing would apply to offshore oil and gas,the province would make money but the spin-off would hardly be noticed by the people.
Just like fish farms, they employ next to no-one,the province gets a dint of money,and we the people get to call wild salmon extinct!
The employment through fish farms wouldn`t be missed or noticed if it disappeared tommorrow.
There is good income and bad income--Campbell has decided to turn his attention on the bad income.
I hope that explanation helps you Realife--cheers
Fiat lux
3 years ago
Egmont.....The problem is
Egmont.....The problem is not only with the government, but with economists who are lumping everything together as an income and GDP. The politicians are only using their fraudulent figures to justify their own criminal activities and, again, call it GDP.
The sale of resources is the sale of capital, yet accounted as "income" and GDP.
The more we destroy, the higher the GDP and growth figures. Then the cleanup, again, adds to the GDP. The more accidents we have the better for the GDP.
The more workers are fired and replaced with huge other forms of energy inputs and automation, again demanding large inputs, the higher the "productivity" and "efficiency" of the remainder.
And this is being taught as a "science" in our brainwash institutes that once used to be called universities and places of learning.
Just pick up a textbook and read the crap it contains.
Ed Deak.
reallife
3 years ago
Egmont Rapids
Thanks for the clarification - I had expected that you previously were talking about revenue when you really meant economic activity but I wanted to make sure.
Unfortunately, we can fondly recall the old days when wild fish were plentiful and the US was paying big bucks for our wood but those days are gone. Killing off fish farms and abandoning the oil industry will not bring back the old days. We need the provincial revenue and jobs. Believe me there are lots of jobs in these industries - for example, have you visited Fort St. John recently?
As for offshore oil and gas, look what it has done for Newfoundland and Labrador.
egmont rapids
3 years ago
No jobs at fishfarms
The fish farms can be moved in to self containment/or land based.
Do you know what they call the capital of new foundland? Fort Mcmurray
Forests are renewable, we ship more raw logs than at any time in BC history.
Fort Nelson/ worked at FNFI many mant moons ago--
Yea there is some work in gas but it can`t compare to logs.
Russia has just announced huge tarriffs on raw log exports/ We must do the same,
Perhaps you are unaware that are gas reserves will only last another 15 to 20 years.
Wild salmon can be brought back,it takes political will--
BC simply needs to ban raw log exports/ No one in the world has our big cedar,BC doesn`t need off shore oil,there`s a 200 hundred year supply in Alberta.
A tree hugger I am not,but our future is in nature tourism and renewable forestry.
It would be a crime to become dependent on gas drilling, the majority of the province doesn`t have gas,just trees.
As for the numbers of jobs in fort nelson employed in gas drilling is miniscule compared to forestry, I have never heard of 300 man shifts in the gas game,or 500 or even 200.
I certainly didn`t hear of any riches from offshore oil drilling that made its way to the gulf states.
Russia,Lybia,Iran,Venezuela,Sudan, and almost all big oil countries have huge employment problems,starving people,poor people,the oil game brings money to the corporation and goverments,not to the people.
Selling off of finite resources is a fools game, it has to fail.
Thats what happened on wall street,they played a game that had to fail.cheers
Fiat lux
3 years ago
Resources are capital and
Resources are capital and their sale is not an income except in the warped minds of politicians and economists.
As far the raw log exports are concerned, the powers knew it very well that they can not be stopped under NAFTA and WTO rules.
This is also the reason why they're selling everything off to foreign owners, and the present SPP and EU talks to sell the whole country. They know that under foreign ownership the public can not take back, or demand any control, or accountability, or even question any action.
Ed Deak.
Kam Lee
3 years ago
Campbell Lying? You bet
Quote:
"The province and its people will be well rid of Gordon Campbell – whether it is an election or by means of some other calamity (such as a finding in the Basi Case) that brings him down….."
Any idea when this trial will happen? Gordo seems to be able to slow it down with the help of the prosecutor, the media, stonewally, etc. When it does happen, we will all find a drunken coward leading this band of thieves. Good work gordo, have a drink for me.
ROBBINS Sce Research
3 years ago
Why is Dan Miller and his
Why is Dan Miller and his oil and gas push for National PR so newsworthy---politically?
Is he hurting James--helping Campbell--neither?
G West
3 years ago
Dan Miller
Dunno Glen, he's been consistent on that point (the offshore) - and at odds with public opinion for years hasn't he?
It's a good question - Bill Tieleman stops in here from time to time, he might have a thought.
As to the newsworthiness of it, I suspect you're seeing the invisible hand of the Bureau of Public Affairs as it winds up the starter motor for the May election.
They'll be trying (as they did with the dog and pony show on Wednesday) to get their 'message' in front of as many 'eyes' as possible from here on it.
realisticman
3 years ago
Dan Miller
The push for oil and gas is pragmatic and compassionate.
As Dan Miller points out, the lumber industry in BC was a $16 billion operation that helped build BC with the health, education and social programmes that are in place today.
Now that the US market for BC lumber products has declined so dramatically another base for the lost income has to established if BC expects to maintain the social services at previous levels.
Oil and gas will be in demand for some time to come even if alternatives gradually come into play. This is where BC can find the necessary funds to maintain the standard of living that BC enjoys.
Bobby Peru
3 years ago
The end of ideas
I know many of you can't make heads or tails of recent economic events and the political outcome in the Federal election. Many instinctively want to return to a system of self-sufficiency, of preserving our natural resources for our own use, much like you encourage individual households to grow their own vegetable gardens or put up roof solar panels.
No matter how romantic this notion- 'put up the walls to economic threats like China and the US' ; stop the world I want to get off", the fact is that we are stronger as a world operating in an interconnected group of societies. And the isolationist response that you largely propose will bring on a huge drop in the standard of living around the world. Even if you could stop Chinese made goods (like lumber products- I'll get to this later) from entering the BC or any other outside economy, you would only impoverish millions of Chinese who have lifted themselves out of poverty through factory work.
Don't care about impoverishing foreign workers? Well that drop in standard of living will make its impact felt in Canada in this global system of ours.
Now I've heard lots of criticism about capitalism here, but I haven't seen any proposal and details about the system to replace it.
The sad fact about the BC lumber industry is that it's only capable of exporting raw logs because BC labour rates are much too high to be competitive with, let's say, China. It makes more sense for Chinese factories to buy BC plant and machinery and use cheaper Chinese workers to make low value added lumber goods.
Another way to put it is that it's foolish to long for those high paying, low skilled lumber and forestry jobs in BC. It's like longing for the return of a cancelled TV series. The products you used to make are not being made by other people at a much cheaper price. It doesn't make sense to erect trade barriers and force BC consumers to pay more for goods that can be produced much cheaper and better by others. Time to move on to new industries.
Like offshore oil production in BC. I am perplexed at why no one hasn't rolled over the irrational objections to exploring for oil. After all, no one knows how much oil and gas is down there unless you explore.
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
Dan Miller...
I recall, prior to the 1996 provincial election, a Vancouver Island First Nations chief telling me that Dan Miller "is a good businessman". That's stuck in my head ever since.
Dan Miller was also responsible for the oil and gas industry credits in the late 1990's, which resulted in the expansion of the north east industry.
And again he has hit the nail on the head in terms of the economic and financial potential of offshore oil and gas. IMHO, it's longer term. Then there are the Nechako and Bowser basins in central BC.
http://tinyurl.com/68opeg
[URL replaced with shorter version for technical reasons. -moderator.]
Of course, northeast BC is booming economically and is also providing $billions annually into provincial coffers.
Newfoundland/Labrador has always been the basket case of the Canadian economy, the poor cousin of Confederation.
Yet last year it recorded Canada's highest growth rate at ~5.7% and has a projected surplus of $544 million in it's 2008 budget that trims taxes, boosts education and health care spending while paying down some of its whopping debt.
Nfld. is also on the verge of becoming a "have province".
Why??? Offshore oil and gas. Nothing else.
Imagine what BC could do with the extra $billions flowing into its coffers every year.
Imagine no health care premiums, no 7% PST, and $billions more for health, education, social services, and infrastructure.
That about sums it up IMHO.
But then again, I don't see any Dan Millers in the current NDP caucus.
Fiat lux
3 years ago
There's nothing "romantic"
There's nothing "romantic" about self sufficiency. It is easily proven logic and sustainability.
Export based industries are dead end quicksand, asking for trouble, as we can see.
Why should other people pay for our health and other services, when we have the means to pay for them ourselves?
Canadian workers are not overpaid, their pay must reflect living costs for survival. In the past 45 years living costs went up over 1000%, while most wages remained stagnant, or perhaps doubled. If the minimum wage had followed the rise in basic living costs, it should be at least $30 to 50/hr.
Wages in China and India, et al, reflect local living costs and political systems.
In any case, goods imported from China are not "cheaper", because monetary values are often forced on temporary perceptions, like our oil and food prices, controlled by a criminal element of corporate gangs, and have nothing to do with economic realities, which are not monetary, but physical.
By the time we add the costs of those imports, caused by pollution and ecological destruction, those "cheap goods" are many more times of locally produced products.
Of course, I only talk from over 60 years of experience in manufacturing and agriculture, so what do I know ?
Human labour doesn't cost anything to an economy, because it is energy neutral.
I never operated a union shop, but my workers were always paid the best wages, as I figured that happy workers are the best producers.
Ideologies and ideology based economic theories have always been the destroyers of efficient economic systems, as we can watch the present one killing millions and ruining the Earth.
Ed Deak.
alive
3 years ago
on the other hand
Well Bobby Pery, maybe we remember the oilspills?
Maybe we have no faith in self-controlled enterprises anymore?
All we have seen so far is that given the green light, they tend to push the barrier, pay a few fines if need be, but basically just go on regardless of hazards.
Yes, labour wages are cheaper offshore, but tell me who is making the extra profit?
What is need is an international coalition of workers, just as the corporations have united across borders.
I have no problems if a Chinese worker makes a decent wage, only the parasite factory owners object, and they have kept moving factories from one "cheap country" to the next as soon as standards began to rise.
That trick can only work for so long, eventually every worker will learn that they are entitled to a decent living, and rebel if need be.
Skywalker
3 years ago
Good one Luke.
Here's one that had me chuckling. "Dan Miller was also responsible for the oil and gas industry credits in the late 1990's, which resulted in the expansion of the north east industry." Now ever since Dan left I have been hearing Campbell take credit for all this stuff. You gotta be more carefull Luke.
Wilfred Laurier
3 years ago
Dan Miller
Dan Miller was an island of reason in those topsy turvy Glen Clark years. He would have made a very good leader of the NDP, in my opinion. However, is is not far enough left of centre for the NDP Faithful.
So, the NDP has Carole James. The BCFed runs her show, just like it did Clark's.
egmont rapids
3 years ago
Luke Skywalker/Rman/and others
I had a good little argument with Dan Miller last week on the Christie Clark show, Miller got a rough ride from all callers.
You Liberals can`t have it both ways,you can`t support Campbell`s/phoney carbon tax -while supporting off shore oil and gas.
Does every province have to turn into a OIL WHORE /
Miller does not BELIEVE IN CLIMATE CHANGE,HE DOES NOT BELIEVE IN REDUCING GHGs.
What happened to our BC surpluses?
People`s overall tax and fees have gone up,schools closed,hospitals closed and gutted,WCB gutted,childrens services gutted,food is up ,gas is up, everything is up,especially goverment wages and corruption is up!
Campbell did not reduce the BC debt, BC debt went up big time!
So what is Miller/Rman/Luke saying--Are you saying that the NEXT BUNCH OF SURPLUSES WILL BE USED TO LOWER DEBT,PST,IMPROVE HOSPITALS,SCHOOLS ETC ETC
As for the reason Miller is floating around all the media in the last week is beyond me,I suspect he is on the Campbell payrole in some capacity.
egmont rapids
3 years ago
What`s good for the goose is good for the gander
Carole james has a speech on the economy schedualed for 6.15 pm monday night/oct/27
How does Canwest play it, straight up,they have too,fair is fair,let her speak,let the people decide if its news worthy!
I think they should give Carole equal time on monday,let the Point Grey Gordon have his 3 minute response and then end this practice,fair is fair!
realisticman
3 years ago
egmont
http://www.cofi.org/forest_industry_BC/economic_statistics.htm
"Over the past century, BC’s forest sector helped to drive the provincial economy, shape the province’s infrastructure and communities and provided British Columbians with a quality of life unsurpassed anywhere in the world. Today, the forest industry remains the key economic engine in BC. Industry sales are responsible for 43% of manufacturing shipments in BC and 13% of BC’s Gross Domestic Product. The economic activity created by the forest sector is the largest single source of provincial employment, accounting for over 200,000 jobs.
In the interior of BC, 24 of 32 local economic areas, representing over 100 communities, were found to be dependent on the forest industry for the dominant share of private sector employment income, making a healthy forest sector critical to their future. This 2001 study found that local dependency on the forest sector had increased since 1996.
The industry is responsible for over $3.5 billion in payments to government, including over $1.5 billion of payments from direct employees."
What I'm saying, since you ask, is that if lumber sales are declining then other sources are needed to continue to provide BC with a high standard of living, with generous social services, well funded education and free health care. Do you have any ideas?
G West
3 years ago
Well first of all
You don't sell off raw logs for virtually no return to the provincial treasury for seven years - and you don't permit the plant and equipment of the firms that built their fortunes capitalizing on public resources to ship their gear out of the nation on barges for shipment to the far east.
Have a look at Sweden and Norway - or even Oregon - if you want to see a better example - so far under a government that doesn't care about the standard of living of seniors, young workers, the poor, children and the handicapped and homeless were doing a pretty good job of guaranteeing the standard of living of Campbell's friends and his “family”.
Perhaps we could sell Campbell and his government - they ought bring in a few pennies and think of how cleaner the place would be without them.
Just the savings on Jessica McDonald's salary and the costs of the Bureau of Public Affairs would be significant...then lets see what we can get for a nearly completed white elephant of a convention centre.
I've got lots more ideas where those came from including getting back the third largest railway in North America and the business of administering out own health plan - let me know when to stop by calling uncle.
ROBBINS Sce Research
3 years ago
Keep on Rockin-the Dan Miller Band
First one point. When I went from a smaller niche newspaper publisher with revenues of about $2.5 million per year--to deciding to go into polling--even though there are obvious connections between the two (and having a degree in political science)---I can without hesitation say that being a good businessman and understanding politics (even reasonably) is nearly mutually exclusive.
Accordingly, I believe it is difficult if not impossible to be a good businessman and a good politician without something losing its integrity in the process-and corruption to one degree or another--a by-product.
What I believe I superficially understand about offshore oil and gas is that getting it if you got it is environmentally safe--basing this on what I have been told about the demands of insurers (and notwithstanding the debate with respect to greehouse gases etc. when you get it).
What I don't get is this economic argument about why one commodity (let's say oil and gas) is not the equal of another (forestry was referenced by Egmont I believe)--if all things are relatively equal in terms of the revenues derived.
egmont rapids
3 years ago
I am getting whiplash
Fine,lets open up offshore oil n gas,develop on the rivers,dam every river for power,ship every tree out of the province,I`m game,lets go for it!
But don`t you dare levy a phoney carbon tax,don`t you dare talk about future generations quality of the enviroment.
Campbell dare not tell anyone about his "precious little grandchild" and about the sacrifices we must make for her,or him!
Get those eco fees off of ecerything I buy that ends up in general revenue,lets open up the ALR,the GREENBELT everything,don`t tell me to recycle,or to conserve water.
Lets just f_c_ ing go for it!
Stop treating the people like a bunch of fools!
Either we are going to be green or not,how much damage does BC coal do, How much coal do we ship to China? What is China doing with our coal?
Lets just say they aren`t making toothpaste with it!
I am getting whiplash from a dirty,enviromental disater goverment attempting to be something green.
It is enough to make me throw up!
Wilfred Laurier
3 years ago
"How much coal do we ship to
"How much coal do we ship to China? "
Well, quite a lot. And this is what pays for roads, schools and hospitals. Besides, the anthracite coal we export is much cleaner than the soft coal in China.
But maybe the NDP would make it policy to end resource exports from BC. Would that make NDP party members happy?
egmont rapids
3 years ago
Don`t give any garbage about clean coal!
If it was so clean we could use it to generate power!
25% of California`s pollution comes from China across the Pacific ocean.
Don`t you play the fool Wilf,
You mean pay for the COQ
Pay for the 150 schools that have been closed over the last 6 years!
Pay for all the care home and hospitals that have been closed!
Don`t you dare go there wilfred, I say go ahead,sell coal,use coal,but don`t come at us with a phoney gas tax deguised as something to save the world!
Wilfred--So our coal is clean enough for China to use but not clean enough for BCers to use,
So wisdom you show Wilfred,where is your cousin SIRJOHNNA!
Fiat lux
3 years ago
Wilfred..... You keep on
Wilfred..... You keep on repeating that the BC Fed runs the NDP by pushing it to the "left"
What is your proof and what is "left" in your programmed ideology?
E.g. What were the biggest mass murderers in history Hitler and Stalin? Left, or right?
What is Bush, left, or right ? And why does he hate communist Cuba, while permitting US manufacturers to ship their factories to communist China, destroying the lives of tens of millions at home, so the good capitalists can make huge profits ?
It is very easy tot keep on repeating time worn slogans, but some of us have seen and have lived in the real world, where there are only the predators and their victims under every known coloured flag, regardless what they're calling themselves.
Ed Deak.
realisticman
3 years ago
Robbins...
"What I don't get is this economic argument about why one commodity (let's say oil and gas) is not the equal of another (forestry..."
Fact of the matter is that our neighbours to the south, ie. our clients for natural gas, do not heat their homes and cook their food on wood stoves any more.
G West
3 years ago
Natural Gas
If Canada (and BC by implication) has so much natural gas that we can share it willy-nilly with our bankrupt American neighbours why is it that certain Alberta companies are contemplating building pipelines and terminals to ship the stuff to Asia too?
Keep the gas and oil here in Canada and slowly, and progressively, develop industry and infrastructure that serve our own needs - and not the nonsense casino capitalism of any more neoliberal liars.
These people have done enough damage - using natural resouces that are the birthright of the whole nation - as the private playground for their own implusive and selfish greed.
http://test.kitimatlng.com/code/navigate.asp?Id=32
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
egmont rapids...
Carole has already responded extensively in the media. I certainly saw her responding on BCTV Global last Wednesday and also read her response in the Sun.
But now, five days later??!!
http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=e331a156-a09b-43f8-9879-e1ed57b12138
Too late. That news cycle is already over.
In any event, Carol also issued a press release three days ago entitled:
http://nid-18047.newsdetail.bcndp.ca/
Very inspiring. NOT! ... which has already been widely disseminated to the media and nothin' newsworthy in there (frankly, it's full of recycled rhetoric IMHO).
BTW, for all of you die-hard Carole James fans, Carole will read the above NDP press release live and verbatim at 6:15 pm tomorrow night on the legislative channel.
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
Skywalker...
Well, I have posted the following on here a couple of times and I guess that it bears repeating:
The additional incentives brought in by the Liberal government include:
1. A reduction in the royalty rate "on marginal wells, where output has fallen to such a level that the operators are inclined to shut down altogether."
2. "A similar credit encourages the industry to drill deeper wells -- 2,000 metres or more. Before the incentive, about two dozen wells were being drilled every year in the northeast. Last year, the tally was 150."
3. "The Liberals crafted a summer drilling incentive to address concerns about a lack of year-round activity in the northeast corner of the province."
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/columnists/story.html?id=0b79f09f-2ad9-4254-be9b-7312a13e2560&p=1
Now the current BC NDP position???? Do away with all of these "subsidies" and "giveaways" to the oil and gas sector.
Brilliant! Throw the proverbial baby out with the bath water.
Again, the BC NDP caucus doesn't have any Dan Millers within their ranks nor any Manitoba NDP Premier Gary Doers for that matter... whose Manitoba government is:
1. Eliminating corporate capital taxes;
2. Reducing corporate taxes, and;
3. Bringing in a multitude of corporate tax credits.
These guys (both Dan Miller and Gary Doer) "get it". "It's the economy, stupid."
egmont rapids
3 years ago
Luke Skywalker
You make me laugh
CKNW is going to carry the 15 minute address live to the province in its entirety.
I suspect that CTV will also carry the address live to the province,all in the name of fair play!
I am not too sure about Global/Canwest TV
Sounds to me like sour grapes on your part Luke!
What are you afraid of LUKE?
Afraid that Carole James`s address will resonate to voters?
A little birdie told me that global will probably carry most of it!
Luke,you being the democratic sort of guy I think you are should be welcoming Carole James speech,right?
All the stations have taken so much heat on the issue,they are all scrambling to restore what little credibilty thet have left!
Anyways, it should be the talk of the radio waves all day tommorrow on CKNW
Perhaps Bill Good will address the issue with Specter and Teilman.
You can listen to me tommorrow on the issue.
cheers
egmont rapids
3 years ago
Social issues?
Luke you seem to think the economy will trump the arrogance of Campbell--Your wrong
You seem to believe that people are not aware of the disaster in hospitals,schools,seniors care,childrens care,homelessness,crime, corruption in the Campbell goverment.
Dobell,Kinsella,Giles,JOHN Les, Oppal,Fraser,Basi,Basi,Virk,BCUC,BC HYdro,Translink,BC Ferries,Welfare rates,Minimum wage,
HEU,BCGEU,BCTF,BC FED of Labour,WFP,run of river,Gateway,SFPR,gravel extraction,Land giveaways,Private jets,gas tax,
BC Rail,
I sure Carole will think of something to talk about
Maybe Ian Black can address the public on tuesday,or Coleman,or Falcon,or Bell,or Bond,
THIS IS GOING TO BE A FUN WEEK
CHEERS
realisticman
3 years ago
egmont
"If it was so clean we could use it to generate power!"
Metallurgical Coal is used in the process of steel making, we don't make steel in BC. Right now, B.C. exports most of its coal to Japan, Korea, Taiwan, North America and Europe, in that order by volume.
Richard Mundie, who is based in Beijing for Teck Cominco, "In B.C., we have a few hundred years left in reserves, so we could increase production if the markets could bear it. There is a lot of upside for us."
realisticman
3 years ago
Helping our American friends stay warm -
"Energy board predicts rosy future for B.C. gas
Better technology for difficult production seen as boost for province
Scott Simpson, Vancouver Sun
Published: Friday, October 24, 2008
Natural gas reserves in British Columbia may be large enough to overcome declining gas production in Alberta in the coming decades, according to the National Energy Board.
Canada's natural gas production has been in slow decline, year over year for most of this decade because conventional gas reserves in the nation's largest fossil fuel reserve, the Western Canadian Sedimentary Basin, are slowly running dry.
Those reserves account for 98 per cent of annual Canadian gas production for domestic and export markets, and they've been central to Alberta's dominance as a gas producer on North American markets."
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/business/story.html?id=930bc15c-37e5-4a47-a1f7-a61c88112edc&p=1
egmont rapids
3 years ago
Rman
I am not disputing any up the upsides of coal or natural gas.
The USA doesn`t even need our natural gas,they have enough for 80 years in their own reserves,the USA will be cranking up production of natural gas big time in the next few years!
My point is --How dare Campbell tell me to reduce my footprint,how dare he put on a gas tax in the name of the enviroment.
Everyone I know calls Campbell(rightfully so)a hypocrit.
Rman/Luke --So convenantly that you two always skirt the real issue!
You can`t make people like you (Campbell I mean)
Are you predicting a sweep of those 2 seats in the bi-election for Campbell Rman?
egmont rapids
3 years ago
The best place on earth?
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=d170cd8b-5196-41e2-88b8-d5ed1aed4aca
Skywalker
3 years ago
Oh dear, egmont.
A 'decade of despair' coming and all under the BC liberals. I wonder how they will fudge this one.
egmont rapids
3 years ago
How else
Blame the world,BLAME THE NDP--what else is new!
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
I Love It! :)
From the Chartered Accountants of BC:
Meh, they're just bean counters, what do they know? :)
Hmmmmmmmm... their "BC Check-up 2008" publication is actually not too shabby. ;)
http://www.bccheckup.com/pdfs/bccheckup_2008_provincial.pdf
After reading the above posters comments, I guess it all comes down to this:
BC NDP: Pessimism and Despair;
BC Liberal : Optimism and Opportunity;
And that will be the ballot question in May, 2009!
ROBBINS Sce Research
3 years ago
So--the impression I get
So--the impression I get from doing my best to work through the blogs is:
1. 'fixing the environment' is wishing thinking unless you have alot of money socked away and the will to do so; AND
2. even if you have money socked away and the will to do so--not every other country is in precisely the same place your is in so the conditions and the will aren't the same (Canada--Europe--US--China)---so
3. The whole environmental--global warming is some type of socialist scheme- given Europe's lack of energy reserves.
4. And lastly--doesn't this make nuke energy more 'attractive' insofar as international relations are concerned because the need for efficient energy is more compelling than the need for weapons.
&&
Is offshore oil and gas a better 'environmental investment--than onshore oil and gas?
egmont rapids
3 years ago
Oh Luke
You have to read this--I mean Vaughn Palmer isn`t exactly an NDP supporter
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=5e0b9fb3-1ad1-4083-a6a3-8e64-a434b766
egmont rapids
3 years ago
I try again on that link
Vaughn Palmer says
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=5e0b9fb3-1ad1-4083-a6a3-8e64a434b766
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
egmont rapids...
I think that ya should try a more recent Palmer column... like yesterday's perhaps??? ;)
But I do agree with ya, I have always respected Vaughn Palmer's reasonable and analytical commentary:
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=f9fe02c4-9a8d-4acd-bfd0-c2f019d98ceb&p=1
Fiat lux
3 years ago
"Employment is up....." Yep,
"Employment is up....." Yep, minimum wage, part time.
I have a 25 year old granddaughter who's getting $12/hr. but only for 24 hours/wk. Her rent is $900/mo.
Some employment to brag about, like we never heard about in the bad old days before this gang of multinational criminals took over the world.
I was apprenticing in Vancouver at a starting wage of $.75 cents and hour in 1955, my wife was making about the same for months.
Our rent was $35/mo and our weekly grocery bill under $20. I was driving a 1948 Hillman Minx and was paying .27 cents for a gallon of gas.
Compare this with today's wages, costs and prices.
Ed Deak.
egmont rapids
3 years ago
And just for good measure
The tip of the iceberg
http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=fa016772-9952-4f60-a67b-6fe28d372424
Bring on the unemployed
egmont rapids
3 years ago
And now for a little laughter
http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/editorial/story.html?id=90258bd6-6dcd-4bba-877e-7bdb51a99e33
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
A Little History Lesson...
During the 1979 provincial election, the BC economy had been on an up-swing since '78 and eventually peaked in May, 1981... low unemployment levels... increasing housing prices, etc.
The NDP achieved its highest level of provincial popular support... ever... at 46% under Barrett.
But there was a little kink in that yesteryear's economy. Inflation was rampant... it was an era of the union COLA ("Cost of Living Allowance") clause and corresponding interest rates approached 20%. (the Prime Rate was around 19%).
In late fall 1981, the bottom fell out of BC's economy... it was BRUTAL... housing prices dropped by ~50%, no consumer confidence, bankruptcies galore, unemployment rate approaching 15%... you name it. BC's worst economic experience since the Great Depression.
An election was later held on May 5, 1983 during this crisis and what happened? The NDP popular vote fell and they lost seats to the Socreds.
What's the moral of the story? Voters prefer centre-right governments during either "actual" or "perceived" tough economic times.
G West
3 years ago
NDP Down?
Heven't we been through this before luke?
Are you losing your memory or do you just post whatever 'seems' appropriate?
I think you need to look at those vote counts again - especially the Liberal and Conservative ones.
Or is this another one of those times where actual 'facts' don't matter?
egmont rapids
3 years ago
There is something your missing Luke
Never ever has a provincial goverment gored so many people`s ox!
No other provincial goverment so vicious to--seniors,sick people,children,disabled,autistis,injured workers,ferry riders,transit users.
Perhaps your right on the economic front but in this case too many people want to zing Campbell.
I expect a high provincial turnout in may,at least on the NDP side.
Do you really think a senior that has been shit on is going to vote Campbell because he removed a toll?
There are so many social issues Luke
There is one more factor in this election,corruption,arrogance and Campbell has been proven to be a liar over and over again and thats one flaw that no politician can recover from.
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
And Good Ol' G West Steps Up to the OK Corral :)
Ummmm to reitarate from Vaughn Palmer:
And let's look at the BC federal popular vote figures:
2006: 29%
2004: 26% (-3%)
I mean really, you can do some of your own research, n'est pas???? :)
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
egmont rapids...
If the evil BC Liberals support those projects and they are also supported by the federal Cons, how could you vote for Harper? :)
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
Oooppsss
2004 should read 2008!
G West
3 years ago
Luke
IT was a federal election and in Canada, the NDP lost less votes than either the conmen or the Liberals.
I'm surprised you didn't notice.
G West
3 years ago
cause this
Is what you posted - you like the premier seem to have forgotten that federal elections involve the whole country.
Furthermore, as you've often pointed out yourself - one can't extrapolate from one to the other...
I seem to remember not very long ago you were trying to convince us that Quebec and Ontario always voted the same way in Federal Elections as well.
Remember that?
The premier, as others have noted, is seizing on anything he can find these days - not surprising considering he's the worst one this province has ever had.
zalm
3 years ago
The (hind) end of Bobby Peru
"No matter how romantic this notion- 'put up the walls to economic threats like China and the US' ; stop the world I want to get off", the fact is that we are stronger as a world operating in an interconnected group of societies. And the isolationist response that you largely propose will bring on a huge drop in the standard of living around the world."
What you are referring to is the Theory of Comparative Advantage, first propounded by David Ricardo, which is anything BUT a fact, as Ricardo himself said.
The most important criticism of it is that it is only possible (not true, but possible) when capital is itself not mobile. When capital is mobile, then the comparative advantage of the one using the most capital is entirely erased. It's easily explained in any economics textbook like Samuelson's by looking at the sample equations for Comparative Advantage. They all rely on a fixed quantum of labour and skill to equal a total. Capital multiplies both and sets the value of the answer to infinity, which sets the value of the more expensive quanta of labour and capital to zero. That would be us. Comparative advantage becomes absolute advantage.
And nowadays capital is the most mobile thing going in North America.
Comparative advantage hasn't worked well since the Second World War and it hasn't worked at all in North America since about 1985. Autos, weapons, civilian aircraft, manufactured food, even microchips - supposedly the last great frontier for first world economies - all have been supplanted by capital mobility to nations where the costs for inputs are reduced. Read Herman Daly for the best summary of how this has come about.
http://www.feasta.org/documents/feastareview/daly.htm
http://www.progressive-economics.ca/2007/08/21/competitiveness-comparative-advantage/
http://dieoff.org/page88.htm
zalm
3 years ago
Bobby Peru's end (redux)
"Even if you could stop Chinese made goods (like lumber products- I'll get to this later) from entering the BC or any other outside economy, you would only impoverish millions of Chinese who have lifted themselves out of poverty through factory work."
Not even close to true. In fact, former World Bank development economist Ha-Joon Chang points out that the principle of comparative advantage was used by advanced industrial countries to keep less developed countries from developing their own manufacturing products to compete with those of industrialized nations. Industrialized nations prefer "free" trade to maintain a dependence of the undeveloped world upon the already developed world - with highly-mobile capital from the developed world employing the labor of citizens of undeveloped nations, then selling the products of their labor back to them through international trade, the primary inputs of both labour and skill are devalued. This, China tries to defeat by pegging the renminbi to the US dollar, which causes as many problems as it solves.
The only reason China has so many factory workers willing to work for $3 a day and the poorest health you can imagine, is because they have impoverished their own country in the race to flood the land with industrial development. A few tens of thousands of Chinese people with CPC connections have gotten fabulously wealthy developing buildings and operating factories using land and resources rendered uneconomic or stolen from the farmers and artisans who formerly lived on it.
But I wouldn't expect you to read any BAD news about Asia in the business pages now, would I? Not with the Chinese government flooding the world with propaganda from its thousands of agents around the world.
Besides, if you think living in China is so great now, why don't YOU take all your highly-mobile capital and go live there? And don't forget to take your incorrect and malformed opinions with you. They're worth as little as your "facts".
zalm
3 years ago
Er.....
On comparative advantage....
"...which sets the value of the more expensive quanta of labour and capital to zero... "
That should be labour and skill
zalm
3 years ago
R'man
"Today, the forest industry remains the key economic engine in BC. Industry sales are responsible for 43% of manufacturing shipments in BC and 13% of BC’s Gross Domestic Product."
2001 you say? Or rather, the Council of Forest Industries (COFI) says? S'funny, BC Stats says 9% of GDP was attributable to the forest industry in 2001, and 7.6% in 2007.
Next.
"In the interior of BC, 24 of 32 local economic areas, representing over 100 communities, were found to be dependent on the forest industry for the dominant share of private sector employment income, making a healthy forest sector critical to their future. This 2001 study found that local dependency on the forest sector had increased since 1996....
...What I'm saying, since you ask, is that if lumber sales are declining then other sources are needed to continue to provide BC with a high standard of living, with generous social services, well funded education and free health care. Do you have any ideas?"
With 86 pulp and forest products mills closed since 2001, including nearly 50 in the last year alone (and 13,000 jobs with them) it's clear that Gordo doesn't have any answers either. In one-industry towns, where the only economic diversity is provided by government, instead The Gord has closed hospitals and schools, reduced ambulance services and cut back ferry transportation, closed outlying offices for the Ministry of Natural Resources in order to centralize everything in a few larger cities....on and on. It's no wonder that these towns are emptying out and people up-country are freaking out on their BC Fiberal MLAs.
What The Gord's doing isn't working - in fact it's breaking things faster than they can be fixed. What are your answers? Or do you insist on relying on stale COFI bumpf for a rose-tinted view of the world?
zalm
3 years ago
ME2
Succinctly put. Nice.
ME2
3 years ago
zalm
Thanks, Zalm, but what for?
But while I'm here, that was an excellent recap of BC's forest industry. Pretty hard to argue against.
I see you've driven Mr Peru to revisiting his Leo Strauss textbook. :- )
jimmy_laroux
3 years ago
... surplus, surplus, surplus ...
Bobby Peru:
During the 90s, amidst low commodity prices, a sagging forestry industry, much lower equalisation payments, and a slump in housing demand, Asian flu, they managed an average of ~2.9% real GDP growth. The Liberals, who have experienced "soaring world-wide commodity prices, skyrocketing international demand for [BC's] natural resources, historically low interest rates and an explosion in federal transfers to provincial governments", to quote McMartin above, have managed ~3.4% real GDP growth since they formed the government. Even the government expects growth to drop considerably in the coming year(s).
Wrong! BC's debt is far, far higher now than it was when the NDP lost power. That's the the important thing to understand. Did you read the article? Let me guess. You tried but could not understand it. Or maybe you did not want to? The fact is that those "surpluses" are an illusion, simply a product of accounting changes. Mountains of BC provincial debt is hidden in the form of P3s, or through amortisation of capital costs allowed by GAAP.
Haha! As opposed to you Fearless Leader, Gordon Campbell, and the Liberals? What the Liberals have done is several orders of magnitude more dishonest.
jimmy_laroux
3 years ago
Quotes from Business in Vancouver
Luke Skywalker:
This is not a quote from the source you provide. Very dishonest.
In fact, those quotes come not from the CABC report, but from here:
http://tinyurl.com/626m3m
[URL replaced with a shorter version for technical reasons. -moderator.]
So these statements come not from "bean counters" at CABC, as you imply, but rather a trade magazine, Business in Vancouver. As for what Business in Vancouver actually wrote, I can't see how "record low unemployment" would help BC "deal with the pending economic storm", and the CABC report draws no such conclusions. If decreasing demand or prices cause a slowdown in BC's economy, how will last year's job growth "likely help the province's economy grow faster than the Canadian average over the next year." Because job growth was strong last year, it will be strong in the future? That's just asinine. And the statement about BC having "low government debt" here is, well, subjective to say the least.
jimmy_laroux
3 years ago
Quotes from Vaughn Palmer (or rather Campbell)
Luke Skywalker:
You state outright that those quotes are Vaughn Palmer's when in fact he is mostly quoting Campbell or summarising Campbell's statements. Little of the "commentary" is his and none of the "analysis", with the exception of the glib little sentence you quote last. Very dishonest.
realisticman
3 years ago
zalm...
So, basically, what you're saying is that the research is phony? Or, you just don't like it? ...and you don't have any ideas. OK, I get it, lumber is not really a big earner. Forestry doesn't really matter and if our customer isn't buying we don't have to find other ways to support our society. We'll just elect a leftie government, just like those glorious days of stagnation in the '90s, and all will be hunky-dory. Cue marching band.
Fiat lux
3 years ago
Ricardo's comparative
Ricardo's comparative advantage works only based on local resources and growing potentials, but as Zalm has pointed it out, it is destroyed by the free movement of, especially, the present form of imaginary capital.
Ricardo also invented the "Iron law of wages", which demands the lowest possible survival wages for workers, now strongly denied, but promoted and used by economists and so called "right wing" politicians. As we can see with the thousands forced into low wage, part time jobs, still accounted as "employment"
These pathetic creatures often quote Adam Smith's "invisible hand of self interest" theory to justify unlimited greed and exploitation rights by predators, now called "investors" and "productive".
What Smith really said, and I'll be happy to write down the whole short chapter where these words appear, was that when somebody invests in "domestick" (sic) economy he'll get unexpected benefits.
He never said the often quoted, incredibly stupid and irresponsible crap attributed to him "In competition individual ambition serves the common good".
Economic competition increases costs, as we can see it in our everyday lives and legalizes the expropriation demands of fascistic ruling sectors.
What amazes me that some phony names just disappear from this blog after a few weeks, or months, and then new names appear pushing the same propaganda. An old communist trick, borrowed by their brothers under the skin, now called capitalists, serving the same predators under a different flag.
I hope the editors are monitoring these names and will consider the banning of the use of phony names, long practiced by the printed media.
Ed Deak, Big Lake.
ROBBINS Sce Research
3 years ago
The federal NDP lost votes
The federal NDP lost votes to the federal Conservatives. The federal government has more impact on overall policy than the provincial one--it collects the taxes.
Gordon Campbell is a Liberal--the fact that he is a BC Liberal matters little since Campbell found religion apparently and moved to carbon tax (federal Liberal likeness) which Harper rejects.
Campbell and Harper are two different political leaders in voters minds--most of whom paying attention to the most obvious (and most recent) of labels.
Harper is a Conservative, Campbell is now a bona fide Liberal---the qualification--the "BC" is now relatively meaningless.
The historical example is irrelevant because that was Social Credit--not BC Liberal. Social Credit as a coalition cannot be undone--BC Liberal insofar as comparisons to federal politics go--can be undone (and it has).
To properly make the argument one must consider the argument from its constituent parts: first compare federal Liberal vote to federal NDP vote--2006/2008. Second, compare combined federal liberal and conservative vote federally 2008 to combined federal liberal and conservative vote 2006. Third, factor in probabilities associated with political parties attempting a third term (with Alberta the anomoly).
If you want to compare federal political outcomes to provincial ones--you must be consistent. You cannot mix a federal provincial comparison with a provincial provincial one unless things are equal and they are not because the BC Liberal label is not the BC Social Credit label.
One could just as easily say Harper was originally a Reformer and Reformers have more in common with New Democrats than they do Liberals. One need only consider the average street in working class neighbourhoods when Reform was around. Trucks in each driveway--Reform sign on one lawn--NDP on another.
For Campbell to bridge the divide with Harper he would need to shed himself of the carbon tax particularly within the context of his economic speech--he did not do this--he needs the legacy link to something 'good' in the event he loses.
Conservatives in his caucus are already trying to control provincial conservative ridings in anticipation of BC NDP win--one term than Liberals--Conservatives outnumber NDP.
Swing voters take more basic cues than the level of consideration of policy that is considered as evidence here.
At the end of the day I would more easily accept the argument that voters will take the economic leader Harper where the tax dollars and policy flow to and from, and vote a provincial government in that is inclined toward adhering to social policy provincially--protected health care and social programs.
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
Jimmy...
That's part of an RSS feed. Do you even know what an RSS feed is?
And I don't mean googling up a cached document from BIV.
Huh??? Taking verbatim from Vaughn Palmer's column inclusive of quotes.
As usual, some bizarre statements and attack the messenger. Way to go Jimmy!
And that's why you are... well... jimmy_laroux ;)
jimmy_laroux
3 years ago
Luke Skywalker
Luke Skywalker:
Clearly you do not. Your quotes are from Business in Vancouver, not from the ICABC. However you got it (whether RSS or otherwise, it's irrelevant), you got it from Business in Vancouver. You just keep on lying.
Come on, you are not that stupid. Those are Campbell's quote from a Palmer article, but you pass them of as Palmer's. As I wrote above, very dishonest.
If you make false or misleading statements, expect to be challenged on them. You clearly did not expect to be challenged. You just thought you could slip them in there and no one would notice. However, dishonesty is what I've come to expect of you, so I often check your sources.
When you are caught lying, you just keep piling on more lies. But then that's why you are... well... Luke Skywalker ;)
zalm
3 years ago
ME2
Thanks for the Keynes argument.
Incidentally, I didn't know that Strauss wasn't an economist or even a political econographer. Philosophy, pure and simple. Emphasis on the simple. Seems to have had a talent for oversimplification...
I hope Bobby enjoys his wander through the pages. Should be a ten-minute sleeping pill. ;>)
zalm
3 years ago
R'man
Ignoramus.
The solution was already proposed up the thread. Stop log exports. Then mills in the south can't get material, prices for raw logs (and hence finished product) rise, and our mills begin to produce again, having been found to be economically advantageous by some miraculous hand of the market...
...or were until someone forgot to invest in a little equipment.
Fellow engineer has a brother who was laid off at the Canfor mill in Mackenzie, the "woodbasket" of the BC Interior. Even during the good years, investment was limited, and a 40-year-old planer chain was still running there until the shutdown. Inefficient? With 40-year-old equipment? I wouldn't hardly expect so.
Now whose lousy idea of business management was that? The union worker's? Or management's?
Never mind - don't answer. You'll just dish out some more smarmy nonsense and put more words into my mouth. Sometimes, I swear, I think you have the attitude that there isn't a single thing that Canadian people, especially hourly-paid workers, can do right that some poor uneducated bubba can't do cheaper and 'righter'.
Cue the right-wing marching band and let CTV and Canvas Goebbels lead the parade. Don't forget your Uncle Sam hat and vest, R'man. I'll just carry on here building shelters for the homeless in public parks.
Frank
3 years ago
zalm
Nice hit, right out of the park. I'm going to make you a belt that says "7 in one blow" like the old children's fairy tale.
For those still living in the 19th C here's an explanation from Krugman on how he won the Nobel for Economics
For those of you that get their economics from CanWest editorials, I'm looking at you R'man and Bobby Peru, it'll be enlightening.
"It’s really about two related things: the “new trade theory” and the “new economic geography.”
OK, so what was the “old” trade theory? It’s what you probably learned if you took intro economics. Countries are different – they have different levels of productivity in particular industries, they have different resources, and those differences drive trade. Tropical countries grow and export bananas, temperate countries grow and export wheat. Countries with highly educated workers export high-tech goods, countries with less educated workers export shirts and pajamas."
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/15/about-the-work/
Bailey
3 years ago
Still around here, Mr. Deak?
I ran across this quote this afternoon that made me want to share it with you. I'm pleased this thread is still open, it seems an appropriate place to do that.----
"All wealth belongs to the Divine and those who hold it are trustees, not possessors. It is with them today, tomorrow it will be elsewhere. All depends on the way they discharge their trust while it is with them, in what spirit, and what consciousness is their of it, to what purpose."
- Sri Aurobindo, "The Mother"
Fiat lux
3 years ago
Thanks for the quote
Thanks for the quote Bailey.
We were in town all day, getting supplies, and I just put this machine on.
My often repeated definitions are :"Wealth is the temporary control of energy"
"Wealth can not be created, only taken...."
The problem with philosophical, or ideological, or religious definitions is that they can be twisted into the legalization of enslavement and mass murder. History is full of examples and precedents.
On the other hand, physical laws are not corruptible and apply equally to everybody.
Nobody can turn physical laws into legalized enslavement and exploitation.
Unless humanity takes the courage and steps to develop physical laws based economic systems, it can kiss its ass goodbye.
Cheers, Ed Deak.
Bailey
3 years ago
Definition is only a part of meaning
I'm not really sure who exactly I quoted you, or whether it was a philosophical, ideological or religious statement. It just reminded me of your axioms about the ownership and transfer of resources. The quote came to me already disjointed from it's source.
I agree that faith based arguments tend to get themselves into corners, hemmed in by their inconsistencies, then turn at bay and savage anybody who happens by.
I suppose that I was reading "the Divine" in about the same light as we say "the Crown", to mean the people of our democracy. Or as Jefferson meant when he wrote "...the common welfare". A sort of generalized idea of the world as the gift given to all living creatures, past present and future. Regardless of the circumstances of their financial lives.
I don't know where I heard that some native cultures traditionally governed on behalf of the seventh generation to come. That would be the as yet unborn people who will live a couple of centuries from now.
Your idea reminds me of that.
Fiat lux
3 years ago
Bailey....Having gone
Bailey....Having gone through years of homelessness and starvation after WW2 taught us to appreciate every bite we eat and the roots we've been able to grow in this country, on our own land, but neither could have been, or can be, achieved if we're looking only for the next "quarterly reports?" and call them "bottom lines".
Just another fraud by economists and businesses, because there are no bottom lines in real economics, only actions and their consequences, which may indeed take several generations to show.
As I wrote in my 1991 "Principle for the application of phycical efficiency to economics"
#3. "Matter and energy can not be destroyed, only transformed". Both began in and continue into eternity, therefore monetary costs are momentary subtotals in continuous columns, without the possibility of bottom lines. Our environmental and human disasters are caused by arbitrarily located subtotals falsely used as bottom lines by special interests, leaving unaccounted liabilites"
Which means that a culture that works for and in the interests of the seventh future generation is a wise one, as they have figured out the cold hard facts and ignore the garbage sciences that rule the Earth today.
Ed Deak.
G West
3 years ago
Perhaps here Bailey
One of the great contributions of the Six Nations Iroquois Confederacy was one of the principle statutes of their “Great Law." This enjoined all chiefs to consider the impact of their decisions on all of their descendants to the seventh generation.
Frank
3 years ago
G
Six nations? You're counting those johnny-come-lately's the Tuscaroras?
Bloody revisionists!
Bailey
3 years ago
Woven on a wampum belt
I have read that the governance of the Iroquois Confederacy was Thomas Jefferson's great inspiration for what is arguably one of the most influential documents in modern history, and the sharpest defining moment in the world Democracy movement.
The Constitution of the United States.
The original form, with it's magnificent checks and balances intact. Not the tattered remnants that survive after the depredations of the current power elitist administration and it's masters among the charterless neo-Soviet resource and manufacturing corporations.
That must have been something, that confederacy. If they are indeed the source of that wisdom, they must have really been something.