Too dismal to contemplate

We've read about all this re Third World countries, what a bummer to see it here.

And we seem just as helpless in the face of it as them.

I couldn't figure out why on earth the Feds started buying heavy duty riot control equipment some twenty years back, and now I see why.

Did they know even then what was coming down?

Struggle for Justice a Moral Duty

If one subscribes to a belief in a moral code (most people do), by definition it means we must forsake certain desires (like watching TV and vegging out) in exchange for ethical duties (like opposing the loss of Canada's sovereignty). Never has that rule been more timely. No society became more just without the same struggle we are facing today. It has always been thus. And people with courage, acting in concert and banding together, have prevailed throughout history.

It is true most of us have become used to a very comfortable life. But sadly, it looks now that it was unsustainable and premised on a number of false assumptions (shopping is the secret of happiness; living a moral and just life is "easy"). There are ample explanations as to how the business and political elites encouraged this world view, but regardless, it must now be reexamined and rejected.

It will take effort by all Canadians, but in order to keep our own sovereignty, priceless!

Although the Canadian public is not to "blame" for the current highjacking of our society, it will only be citizens who can stop it. God knows no one else will show up to the rescue. That is our ethical dilemma. Do something, or do nothing.

Great article to help us consider our choices.

Dance to the Continental Jig -Canada?

Hey, read the Project for a New American Century- and it spells out quite clearly America's intentions. Canadians need a government to chart an independent course, otherwise as the trend line continues we will be nothing more then the gas, oil, electricity, water pump for America. We can do better then that, we as citizens deserve much better then that. While Mr. Dobbin's assessment of America's current state of "Democracy' and "Economy' has merit, we need to reflect much more on the state of our own democracy and economy in British Columbia/Canada. The institutional design of our democracy provides no real checks and balances to Executive Branch power when there is a majority government. Various types of political power is highly centralized in the Executive Branch which enables them to sign secret treaties, such as SPP/TILMA, that allows them to make thousands of high ranking political appointments as well as judicial appointments, also the legal concept of subsidiarity is not understod and does not exist in this polity, with a consequence that the authoritiy of central power carries the day. As one example of that, is the method by which water is allocated in BC, a method of allocation that favours industrial development, encourages private power development on our rivers, and completely disempowers the local as well as First Nations. Since the Tyee won't carry my writings I urge you to go to bcpolitics.ca and read my Discussion paper on Water Governance which illustrates how the use of the subsidiarity/harmonization legal principles could deeply democratizes governance of water resouces, a model which could apply to other sectors/resources too ...in an integrated manner. . While I appreciate that Mr. Dobbin is ringing the bell of alarm, and it must be rung very loudly because we are or may be past the point of no return, unless we cancel our NAFTA/SPP participation, I urge the Tyee to give much more voice to creative voices that propose positive alternative visions to the current situation in BC/Canada. We need to deconstruct our dysfunctional Canadian democracy, starting in British Columbia, and in my view design new democratic institutions ourselves - and looking south to our neighbours and their difficulties may tell us what to avoid, but NOT what to uniquely create as Canadians- and therein lies the essence of my critique of this article.

Deep intergration.....

....is an absolutely terrble term for the practice of Canada and US "harmonizing" trade agreements, standards etc.
Not to say anything about the truly scary "Civil Assistance Plan"...let's not call that "deep integration" but call it an "invasion plan".

Most people will never have a clue what "deep integration" means.

I wish you, Murray Dobbin, the Council of Canadians and anyone else using the term "deep intergration" would stop and come up with something better!

Dobbin is right!

I'm having trouble getting past the two Cheshire cat smiles of the Bush's that accompany this article. The mind boggles at the thought that Canada would even remotely follow their leadership in any way. The best thing to happen in a long time is the sudden meaningfulness of the border between our two countries brought on by the U.S. obsession with terrorists. It is just a pity that it had to be them and for the specific reasons they created. It should have been the result of some leadership from Ottawa and a desire to remain autonomous and the protection of our sovereignty.

Dobbin is right. We do not help the U.S. by being their whore. A lot of Americans are pretty decent folks but their government is corrupt to the core. Democracy is defined by the elite as how much wealth you can steal for yourself. It is not defined in terms of equal rights and opportunities. We get on the U.S. wagon at our peril. Sure we can be neighbors, but that doesn't mean we need to let them dictate to us what kind of a country we will leave for future generations.

good article, Murray

Good article, Murray.

I agree with the writer who doesn't think the term "deep integration" is nearly descriptive enough. It's somehow innocuous and benignly euphemistic, like "harmonization," or "homeland security."

"Integrate this" and "Deep Integration" are too sophisticated, ironic, and vague for the Joe Six-Pack to understand in a blink, which is about as much time you've got to get your point across on a button or an ad campaign.

How about a "Canada is Dying" campaign, or something equally descriptive, but much better. (Start a contest on the Tyee and Rabble.ca)

I also think the public needs to start hear ing more vivid, frightening examples of how this agreement could affect them.

USA or China, same difference!

While I agree that the US is trying hard to intergrate us, whether we like it or not, we must also recognize that we are slowly being bought out by China!
It is the new way to acquire the benefits from other countries; why invade and be at odds with the population when all they need to do is to own every worthwhile business we have?
Why should they want our land, when they get all the raw logs, minerals, coal etc. from here anyway?
Our elite has been so hung up on making money, that they forgot we cannot all survive on the trucking of our rescources to the nearest container terminal!

Duty

That's it, really. That's the whole idea, the whole post. Just the one word.

Duty.

There are different kinds of course. Civic duty, moral duty, sworn duty, family duty, military duty, duty of care, duty to report. Lots of kinds.

Lately it's used as equivalent to responsibility, but it really means more than that. Much more.

We are, on a deep level, fundamentally divided by our duties, more than by anything else, almost. Our functions, our life's works both determine and are determined by the duties they carry. CEOs and Governments have different duties.

Men and women are different because they have different duties, which they cannot change or duck. At least not honourably. Not so much by height or upper body shape or politics.

Americans and Canadians are different because the duties that define us, and our ways of honouring them, are just...different. And can never be integrated, without the death of one or the other people.

americanize me no thanks

Great article. One other reason why we should not join the U.S. is that, imperfect as our system is, we are a democracy and they are not.

As I told my students at the University of Wisconsin when they asked why I was returning to Canada:
1.Our PM has to defend his actions in Parliament every day unlike your president who only appears in front of hand-picked audiences.
2. I can vote right wing or left wing, you can only vote right wing or extreme right wing. Choice is essential for Democracy.
3. Your politicians have to spend millions of dollars, which they get from corporate donations, in order to get elected - they are the worst that money can buy. Because of our short election period, our politicians spend less and are therefore slightly less vulnerable to being bought.
4.Some of the most dangerous people in the U.S are non-elected ( Rumsfeld, Pearle etc and, previously Kissinger). Ours are elected and therefore can eventually be ejected.

Needless to say my American students, knowing no other system than their own, were shocked to contemplate the fact that maybe they were not living in the "greatest democracy" and maybe they did not live in a true democracy at all.

"righties" in the closet

After moving to Vancouver, I have attended a variety of public meetings and usually found Council of Canadian types, "lefties", NDPers and the like. Some speak up, others hand out pamphlets. No where in sight are Fraser Institute types, Conservatives, "righties" etc.
I find it odd and a bit scary and have come to the conclusion that this is one of their strategies. Don't confront in public because this will raise awareness of what is going on. Keep quiet, stay out of the media. Do things under cover, through the back door. Hope nobody notices.
Along with incrementalism, this strategy has worked very well. If it wasn't for Rafe Mair, would the "Run of Rivers" bullshit be exposed at all?
Any discussion of the rampant increase in gambling in B.C.?
When the "Right" is in the closet, be afraid, be very afraid.

Conspiracy Theory

"While conservatives have for years protested the threat of the "New World Order," fewer of them are familiar with the recent North American Security and Prosperity Partnership. A major factor in the program being practically unknown to most Americans and Canadians is the deafening silence by the news media.

"According to political strategist Mike Baker, in order to prevent news coverage of the fledgling North American Union or North American Federation, political leaders and left-wing journalists have successfully portrayed anyone who speaks out on the subject as a crackpot or a member of a fringe group.

"It's almost like something out of Orwell's book 1984. The news was manipulated based on the government's need of a specific storyline. On Monday, the enemy is Eurasia. But by Friday the enemy is Oceania and has always been Oceania," said Baker.

Proponents of consolidation of the US, Canada and Mexico are thrilled with the prospect of next week's North American summit in New Orleans. But knowing how full disclosure of their plans may have an unwelcome ripple effect, the think tank Fraser Institute suggested renaming the "North American Union" in order to offset the mounting criticism of the Bush-Harper plan.

In an article titled, "Saving the North American Security and Prosperity Partnership", published in March by the Canadian Fraser Institute, the writers contend that President George W. Bush and Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper decided to expend no more political capital in pursuing "the bust" that has occurred because of the "brand name" of the Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America or SPP.

The solution, the Institute argues, is a complete makeover in which the goals of North American political and economic integration continue to be pursued, but the name of the desired entity is changed to keep the average citizens in the dark about the program.

Even the Fraser Institute advocates dismissing opponents of the SPP as "conspiracy theorists."

http://www.newswithviews.com/BreakingNews/breaking57.htm

Canadian Identity

It's good to see that stereotypes, unfair generalizations, and bigotry are acceptable at the Tyee. Canada prides itself on multiculturalism and tolerance, but this article completely ignores those great ideals. Unfortunately, Canadian identity, in the minds of many otherwise reasonable citizens, has so revolved around the fact that Canadians are not indistinguishable from those in the U.S., that U.S. bashing has become the chief way of asserting Canadian uniqueness. This is not only unnecessary, but represents a type of nationalism that thinks it okay to disrespect and abuse those not like us. Murray Dobbin ought to be ashamed of himself, and the editors of the Tyee should know better than to allow a patently bigoted article to represent their publication.

Dobbin's defense of Canada

I am thrilled that the Tyee and Dobbins can produce for us articles of this thoughtfulness and urgency. Democracy is not what it should be in Canada when "secret" negotiations and deals are done behind the people's back, often with the collusion of the "opposition". I have wondered about this and suspect that our politicians are in mortal dread of affending the corporate and individual megabillionaires in the USA. I suspect that USA foreign policy is basically trade imperialism and has been so for years. We have seen "regime change" and invasions papered over with a sufeit of PR and perhaps any savvy pol who wants to keep his job musy cowtow to Washington...My hope for Canada is that grassroots democracy through the internet like Obama is so successful at, will take root here so that the pols who value and fear money, power and votes in that order will be more responsive to the ordinary Canadian. I believe that a very large majority want us out of Afghanistan but the pols have extended our commitment!!!! I rest my case.

Mainstream Media

"If it wasn't for Rafe Mair, would the "Run of Rivers" bullshit be exposed at all?"
CO-OP Radio 102.7 FM has been covering the privatization of BC Rivers for at least a year. Listen to Wake up with CO-Up M-W-F from 7:00 to 8:30AM. It is a public affairs show that discusses important and interesting issues that the mainstream media ignores. It's real journalism, not corporate pap and light-hearted banter gunk.
I'm sure the show would piss off the
Premier and his brother, and that just warms my heart.

Green green, good point.

Green green, good point. I've noticed the same - several Conservative candidates in the recent Alberta election apparently felt no need to attend debate forums. I guess they felt there was no need to carry on the charade that we actually have a true and open democracy, where vibrant ideas and concerned public opinions actually count for something. Actually, I think they're cowards who know that they can't argue truth and with people who have the public interest at heart - so best to say nothing at all and act invisible.

As for Moss, it's not that "U.S. bashing has become the chief way of asserting Canadian uniqueness" it's that critiquing the rapacious behavior of ANY country's politicians and business communities (our own included) is a way of asserting the DEMOCRATIC RIGHT AND CIVIC DUTY, (as someone reminded us here), and to speak up about INJUSTICE whenever they see it. Which, in the case of what's going on down South, just happens to be every other second - at this point in history, that is.

One is always tempted to ask neo-con, jingoistic Americans this: "Why, pray tell, are you so detested around the entire world if your government is so righteous and "fair"?"

"Jealousy" is a cop-out answer and doesn't wash. I don't see people railing against countries (Scandinavian, Swiss, etc.) that have MUCH higher standards of living than the U.S.

I believe that middle class and poor neo-con Americans are in for some lengthy self-reflection - and they're going to get it by all accounts, in the form of fascism in their faces or a long, deep and sad journey of depression, both real and psychological. Many many thoughtful, well-informed and outraged progressive Americans will be dragged along for the ugly, bumpy ride. And so, unfortunately, will we.

I know it's true

because I am an American. The collapse of US democracy is what most concerned me. I'm not sure that democracy is even possible in a nation of 300 million people as diverse as the US and with as much power. The seduction of the military and economic power is too great; politicians and power-mongers will always yearn to be at the helm of such a mighty ship, to aim its cannons at their perceived enemies, and to appropriate its wealth for their tribe. That is true for all nations, of course, but in the US, the stakes are enormous.

In my radical opinion, the salvation of the US can come only with its dissolution. I think that it should become several independent nations. Just as Germany was divided after WWII, so should the US be divided in order to allow democracy to reestablish itself, to reduce its power, and take it out of the business of being the globe's self-appointed cop.

In the meantime, Canadians must wake up. Otherwise, their destiny will be taken from their hands. It already has, to some extent, with NAFTA. Unfortunately, the media only trumpet the supposed benefits of these treaties and have abdicated their role as investigators and critics.

Hot Potatoe

Yeah, well, I think Dobbin has it right:
Canucks do not aspire to become Yankee.
Some do but I don't
Especially when the whole driver of any recent notion to go their way is driven by "economics' which is crumbling before our eyes. One can not expect our little governments to notice yet - Harper will still be imagining he understands "economic forces" when the starving refugees (from western Canada?) come knocking.

source of information

I would be interested to know the writer's source for much of the information in this article.
I am neither agreeing or disagreeing with the article, just pointing out that there are a number of claims made and stories quoted with no sourcing whatsoever. It appears readers are buying all the information hook line and sinker. I tend not to believe what I read wholesale unless there are verifiable sources quoted. These are absent.
There were some interesting quotes about American paranoia and widespread use of home alarm systems. I am not American but have lived in the US for over twenty years. During that time I have known one friend who had an alarm system. Meanwhile, I have friends in Chilliwack BC who tell me the burglary rates for that area are extremely high, some of the highest in BC, if I recall correctly. And in that area, home alarm systems are commonplace. My friends there in fact urged ME to have an alarm system put in place, believing that a person cannot live safely without one.

I think to suggest that the US government is absolutely corrupt,while believing the opposite of Canada's.. is rather naive.

I remember one of my first moments of disenchantment with Canadian government- when I found out that Victoria dumps all its raw sewage in the ocean. And has done so for years. This is obscene.

Again- I neither agree wholesale nor disagree wholesale with the content of this article. Some great points are raised. But I doubt the veracity of a number of the facts.

Thank you.. Moira

The price of Liberty is eternal vigilance

Alda has just advanced the best defense I've heard against the "jealousy" argument which has long been used against critics of the US, and it is worth repeating:

"Jealousy" is a cop-out answer and doesn't wash. I don't see people railing against countries (Scandinavian, Swiss, etc.) that have MUCH higher standards of living than the U.S."

My formative years were in the 40's and early 50s. At the age of 20, I believed that the US was the best, most advanced country in the world. This was a to-be-expected result of their almost total domination of our media, primarily the movies.

My relatively slow disillusionment began in the 60s, but didn't "set in" until the late 70's, when I became involved in environmentalism, and started seeing the neocon syndromes.

My disillusionmnt then turned to an anger which remains still, when it finally dawned on me that I'd been deliberately and purposively lied to.

And so I hold no brief against the American people per se, but rather for their lying elites who have slyly prostituted every noble ideal that Anerican culture has preached to itself and proselytised to the world.

I believe our present anti-Americanism is derived of the sure knowledge that their elites are as bent upon corrupting our system for their own ends just as surely as they've done it to their own.

Largely as a result of Bush's clumsy ham-fistedness, the rest of the world - most strikingly the Third World - has also come to recognise that American foriegn policies are based purely upon Economic Imperialism. Caveat emptor.

We can only hope a new Administration will begin a turn-around for the Yanks. But whatever happens, we cannot for a moment lose sight of the American object lesson as our own corrupt elites try their best to copy it.

ME2

I have never encountered any Anti-Americanism here in Canada, except from what I have read from some fringe groups who seem to have a certain economic/social fear of Americans.

In that same vein, the BC media reported a couple of decades ago(?) about US Anti-Canadianism, also from some fringe groups, who referred to Canadians as Cheaseheads. lol

Sure Canadians jest about certain American stereotypes just as Canadians jest about certain Canadian sterotyoes. But such comments have no underlying Anti-Americanism.

The Bush administration is the most vilified, around the world, that the US has ever elected. It will take years to undo that political damage from the perspective of the rest of the world.

Whether it's Obama or Clinton, either will certainly be a good start.

Contradiction

You say that America needs to get out of Iraq and focus internally, yet you call America an isolationist country? That's a bit of a contradiction.

Contradictions

When a paranoid schizophrenic breaks cover to lash out violently against imaginary enemies I don't call it "contradictory".
I call it a symptom of serious mental illness

Who has enough backbone to tackle this one?

I might sound like a broken record, but I have asked this particular
>>question more than once and have yet to receive a clear, not an evasive
>>answer, if one at all.
>>We all know that the US currently has a debt of approx. $10 trillion - not
>>exactly small change. Most of us also know what the Mexican, American and
>>Canadian governments have been cooking behind our backs, without even a
>>whisper of public input or debate and with little chance, if at all, of
>>this ever being put to referendum: the possible North American Union or
>>NAU.
>>Once this 'marriage a trois' were in place, what is going to happen with
>>the $10 trillion US debt? Are Mexican and Canadian taxpayers expected to
>>shoulder this enormous load without an explicit consent? Another
>>government decision being shoved down the public throat? Pretty clever
>>move by our 'best friend and ally', eh?
>>I think people need to seriously question elected officials and demand
>>answers, not just about the debt but also about the proposed NAU. And the
>>media needs to come clean too. Democracy is 'the will of the people', not
>>the 'bill for the people'. I think we have experienced 'privatize the
>>profits, socialize the losses' too many times.
>>With tough times ahead, taking care of personal debts is enough of a
>>burden without having to shoulder another country's fiscal follies.
>>
>>Vera Gottlieb
>>A Canadian living in Germany
>

As far as Dobbin's

As far as Dobbin's "democracy" argument goes, it's worth pointing out that absurdly high rates of re-election for incumbent politicians is not something that is exclusive to the US. In any given federal election, an incumbent Member of Parliament has about an 85% and up chance of being re-elected.

In both Canada and the US ridings are generally only competitive when an incumbent steps down, or is enormously unpopular. If the legislature and the executive were separate, as they are in America, there's no doubt that the Canadian rate would be even higher. It's only because we have to toss out the occasional MP to change the national government that we even do.

And oh yeah, countless studies have proven that there is absolutely no credible evidence to suggest that "corrupted voting systems" had any material influence on the last two elections. But don't let that bother you. The tinfoil suits you well.

Canada united because of US

I like avandoc's idea of the US breaking up as states re-group into politically aligned territories. But think of the implications for Canada. Canada is also politically divided and, I suspect, only stays united because of its vulnerability juxtaposed the US. But if the US was breaking up, wouldn't that create some interesting opportunities? Perhaps BC would combine with Washington, Oregon and other west coast states, Alberta would want a union with Texas no doubt, and Quebec would finally be independent.

A big assumption, bikerbill,

A big assumption, bikerbill, that any Canadian province would even consider joining with an internally fragmenting US-, that notion itself being rather fanciful at this point. Attractants that MAY exist now, would not necessarily exist in the aftermath of a US implosion, which is unlike to be a peaceful process, given that culture.

As for Quebec, that likely depends more on our internal national dynamic and attitudes. The Harper Conservative's recognition of the right of nationhood for the miniscule Kosovo, for example, and its being carved away from Serbia, to serve US purposes, has done more to set the legal precedent for such separatist sentiments as may in the future be likely resurge in Quebec.

On the other hand, there are many countries that contain more than one nation within them, as in Canada. Take the Great Britain made up of England, Scotland and Wales, for example, which shows no serious sign of breaking up any time soon, or even the Russian Federation which, while many opted out in the collapse after the Afghanistan War, still contains many territories that are in actuality nation states. Even at least half the populace of the Ukraine would like to renew its political and economic ties with the Russian Federation.

Much would depend on the particular dynamic then prevailing, in this country and within and between an imploding USA. Any attraction to join with the US on the part of elements of this country however, would be greatly diminished in fact. IS, in fact, already much diminished-, save perhaps for the more US Empire Loyalist run and influenced Alberta. (And even there, I am not so sure.)

All of which even considered, I find it still highly unlikely that the US will implode in such a manner-, as much as it would be, in my view, a useful scenario assisting this country in establishing its own national cajones credentials without threat, or at least with a diminished threat of interference from The Empire.

We are already practically non-existant as a credible independent country, due to the actions and influence of both internally loyal US Wannabes in this country, especially in the Conservative and Liberal Parties, AND external US pressure and threat.

It is hard to imagine that our "countryhood" could be under any greater threat than it is right now.

Ohhh Come On Skywalker...

There's a big difference between Anti-Americanism and wanting to be American.

For example, BC'ers have more in common with Washingtonians and Oregonians (they were all part of the same relative Oregon Territory at one time) than BC's have with Ontarioans.

That relates to the whole Cascadia phenomena and the natural north/south flow here on the west coast.

In that same vein, Austrians don't want to be "Germanized" although they have a similar culture and language to their German counterparts.

In fact, the Bavarians are more similar to most Austrians compared to their German counterparts.

As for fringe groups, yup... Canadian Anti-Americanism arises from fringe groups who have unfounded insecurities.

Skywalker

I really have to wonder where you get your information. That is not what I'm hearing. It might be that I am farther away from the 49th parallel. Most of the "not wanting to be American" comes with an almost visceral contempt for all things like economic pressure, foreign policy, etc. coming from south of the 49th.

Respectfully, I disagree

British Columbia has much more on common with Ontario - from which nearly all the second and third generation Canadians who've moved to BC from the prairies since the thirties – have had strong connections. And, in recent years, the connections have become even stronger as Ontario and Alberta have become the main source of inter provincial migration to the province.

You can check it out.

The tiny proportion of current British Columbians (mostly from the original colony on Vancouver Island) with ties to the American Pacific Northwest is of little importance to anyone but themselves. In a way, like the Ancien Régime with its ties to Great Britain, they are of almost no importance to anyone but residents of parts of Oak Bay, Victoria and the few remaining sentient members of the Monarchist League.

Please check the BC Statistics for the necessary confirmation that inter provincial migrants to British Columbia come mainly from Ontario and Alberta.

You can check up on the data here:
http://www.bcstats.gov.bc.ca/pubs/mig/mig953fa.pdf

and you’ll also find numerous links to quarterly updates for a start.

I invite respectful comments to my posts at Tyee.
G West.

And If I May Add...

BC, Washington, and Oregon also have very similar political attitudes and connections.

Examples:

1. The RAV Cambie Line:

New Democrat Gregor Robertson brings up a spokesperson from Seattle to confirm that merchants were compensated in Seattle for the construction of their lrt system (as opposed to RAV);

2. Heritage Vancouver Schools:

The Van City group in the forefront of preserving heritage schools in Van City (another Tyee article) brought up a spokesperson from Seattle to describe how they perserved Seattle heritage schools;

3. Obama/Clinton:

BC New Democrats Sue Hammell and Adrian Dix are working to support Clinton and Obama respectively in Washington State.

Again, Alberta and Ontario are a million miles away with different political, economic, and social cultures.

Anti-Aericanism

Sez Luke S:

"Canadian Anti-Americanism arises from fringe groups who have unfounded insecurities."

EDITED FOR PERSONAL INSULTS

Almost any Canadian you put the question to will give you a qualified but still unequivocal answer which would go something like this:

"We like the people, and we share many if not most of their values. That said, we think their politicians suck, and we despise their attitudes to and their treatment of the rest of the world"

In more recent times, more and more people are coming to recognise the critical US influences upon Canadian and BC politics and economics, and so now something new has been added to our response:

"We both fear and resent American influence in our country's and in our Province's affairs"

That should be clear enough, Luke, EDITED FOR PERSONAL INSULTS

ME2...

And you obviously didn't read my earlier post:

Whether it's Obama or Clinton, either will certainly be a good start

As most Canadians will concur.

ME2:

There's an old saying... "The more things change... the more things stay the same"

How on earth US influences Canadian or BC politics I do not know. Please explain?

Are you suggesting that the federal sale of Petro-Canada, Air Canada, or CN Rail from over 20 years ago was by US influence??

As in mainstream Canadian society?

Oh BTW, ME2...

US Senator Max Baucus from Montana exerted tremendous pressure against Canada and the BC government to prevent coal bed methane gas exploration/extraction in the Flathead Valley of the East Kootenays.

In that same vein, BC exerted tremendous political pressure against Washington State regarding the Sumas 2 power project.

So in a sense you are right, these two examples were reversed critical influences against each others political/economic/environmental affairs.

Respectfully

Let me remind you again what you posted:

I disagree with you - furthermore, most of the Albertans - like all prairie people, also have much closer ties to Ontario and the rest of Canada than they have ever - or will ever - have with Washington and Oregon.

BC, with the exception of the hard cases I noted - which are, in some ways comparable to the Québécois pur laine - is an important and vital part of Canada - those who have been promoting closer ties and more exchanges with Washington and Oregon should do it as part of this country.

I'd welcome both states to leave the Union and join Canada any time. In fact, in many areas - both in terms of health care and overall taxes - they'd be better off.

Furthermore, any more name calling and I'll simply ignore the comment.

Like many of the writers here, I invite respectful comments to my posts - I'm not interested in 'black is white' argumentation.
G West.

Luke

Otto von Bismarck said that Bavarians were half-man and half-Austrian :-)

Unlike Austria and Bavaria though, BCers don't have a history with Washingtonians and Oregonians and Alaskans.

Our similarities are geographic and given enough decades/centuries I'm sure we will have a history but at the moment the people of BC and Washington tend to come from other parts of Canada in our case and other parts of the US in theirs.

In other words, little to no shared history.

Obama or Clinton a good thing?

I suspect not.

I beg to differ: Hillary is as much the corporate warhawk as McCain (or Bush for that matter), thus- http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20080422_robert_scheer_apr_23_clinton_and_iran/

And Obama? He's as much a willing pawn as Hillary: http://baltimorechronicle.com/2008/041608Parry.shtml

With either one of them in the Oval Office it will still be "bidness as usual." Obama may be the lesser of two evils, but when was the last time the US political machine offered up anything else? Too long ago for me to recall, sadly.

If I were a US citizen I would write in Edwards or (ideally) Kucinich, but of course this is but a pipe dream.

Just MHO.

Frank...

Our similarities are geographic and given enough decades/centuries I'm sure we will have a history but at the moment the people of BC and Washington tend to come from other parts of Canada in our case and other parts of the US in theirs.

I understand where you are coming from and perhaps the term BC is placed in the wrong context.

Northeast BC is much more Albertan, similarly to the Columbia Valley (Invermere, Windermere, etc) than stereotypical BC. Even the Okanagan Valley is infested with Albertans.

In that same vein Calgary is the most "American" Candian city just as Portland is the most "Canadian" American city.

I guess I was thinking more about the commonalities between Metro Vancouver/environs and western Washington/western Oregon in terms of a similar economic/social liberal background and the various social linkages along that corridor.

BTW, Otto was right! ;)