Dump Ottawa

What more does BC need them for?

that's an easy answer....

Because British Columbians can't be trusted to make decisions for themselves; it's the whole premise of Confederation....

where this oil is going....

Here's a reminder of the values and practices of the economy/society we're feeding that oil to:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/30/business/worldbusiness/30food.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin

The same country whose heavy industry's pollution is why our weather has been so badn this year - all helped along by the coal we sell them.....

Globalization is madness. Mind you, so is human civilization.

Coalitions-The People in Action

Coalition is needed to fight this... Will Horter of Dogwood is on the right track.
Hopefully a coalition can be formed quickly and go into action.

For example, in the Lower Mainland there are two coalitions with an suprising range of support.

The Gateway 30 Network opposes the Gateway Project and Against Port Expansion opposes the proposed expansion of Roberts Bank Port.

At the Gateway rally there were:
-Community and environmental groups,
-Conservative M.P. John Cummins speaking up against his party!
-Green Party rep Adrienne Carr
-NDP- David Chudovsky
and many others and groups.

To see a coalition in action please visit for video of amazing anti Gateway Rally held on Mar. 31
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BYjATuNa_E

Website for the Gateway Coalition:
www.stopgateway.ca

Website for Against Port Expansion
www.againstportexpansion.org

Hope this info is of some help to those organizing to fight this proposed and probably disasterous oil tanker routes.

There's no doubt that tanker

There's no doubt that tanker traffic along BC's coast would be risky and that's why it was banned in the 1970s.

But the projected pipelines by EnCana and others that would be part of any oil or LNG tranker traffic coming to Prince Rupert or Kitimat have been under discussion for several years now. They didn't suddenly appear on the major projects list because of some Harper pronouncement.

Confederation

Well..look at the Provincial Governments the people of B.C. elect.
They voted Gordo in not once..but twice
Bill Vanderzalm? Bill Bennett? Mike Harcourt? Agnes Kripps..Waldo Skillings..

Whatever became of Faye Leung? I always liked Faye..thought she`d be a good one to take the helm. Her cousin Jimmy had a lot to offer as well.

Confederation is wrong...

British Columbians are capable of making decisions for themselves, the will is all that is missing.

Capable, yes.

Willing, no.

Major Spill ?

[Quote: That a "major" spill of 10,000 or more barrels is bound to happen every seven years by industry average.]

Does anyone know the source of this statistic?

Coastal.

to Dr. Evil from Dr Skookum

You misunderstood me, and my fault for not clarifying; Confederation includes the rules written by which BC is allegedly governed (since those rules are so often broken/rewritten); not that the way the Colonies were run before hand was all that much better - though I'd rather have an outright autocrat like Gov. Douglas than a pretend democrat like Campbell - and as far as drunks go, Gov. Seymour was at least an honourable man with a conscience, if not great amount of efficacy.

I was mostly referring, however, to the fact that as long as we're locked into the "post-BNA Act" (the first minister-written 1982 Constitution) we have no means of recourse to govern ourselves in jurisdictions critical to this place (fisheries, offshore rights, etc.) without the huge voting bloc of Central Canada deciding that the policies it wants, to benefit itself, come first and what the people or environment or economy of BC need, tough titty. This is why the representation-by-population method is such a complete abomination given the layout of our country - and of our province; Vancouver holds a disproportionate share of policy-making decisions over the lesser-populated regions in the same way that Toronto does over Canada.

Confederation only wanted us to aggrandize itself, and for no other reason.

BTW re Global's non-coverage of this

Instead on each newscast today they're hyping Campbell's "greening of BC" announcement of the Hydrogen Highway.....even presuming that there'll be enough hydrogen-driven cars to make the thing worthwhile, the costs to the atmosphere and oceans of the oil-export business (both in terms of damage to the seas as well as, ultimately, to the atmosphere and climate) will more than offset any supposed "carbon savings" of the Hydrogen Highway; but that Global is trying to paint Campbell "green" is telling enough.....

dr. Skookum from doktor evil

I know what you mean...I always thought of myself as a B.C.er before a "Canadian"..but the thought of being isolated and at the mercy of these whackos has made me a federalist.
To me Gordo and his group are death. I think they are truly and genuinely evil people. Everything they touch turns to misery and death..for people..the land..the water....death.

Smell The Glove

I think the Province vs Fed thing is irrelevant in this particular instance is quite irrelvant as they appear to be working hand in glove.

Regarding the Campbell Gov's longterm committments one need look no further than the extremely well-funded 'Oil and Gas Team' that the Globe and Mail once described this way:

"A B.C. government "swat team" (that) is devising detailed policies for oil and gas drilling near the Queen Charlotte Islands, hoping to entice energy giants to exploit offshore riches."

_____
More details at my place for those interested at:

http://pacificgazette.blogspot.com/2007/04/would-you-like-can-of-luncheon-meat.html

.

you're missing my point...

... by "the Province" you're meaning only the current government, not the majority of British Columbians, certainly not the body politic either; you're only meaning the current bunch of carpetbagging freebooters (well-dressed though they may be, but I do prefer Johnny Depp's sense of fashion over Gordo's....) and "the Province" is not the right phrase - only "the current BC government". "The Province" is all of us, and the place itself; it's not the government, although it's easy enough to equate the two as it's common in Canadian media language; but I was meaning the political reality of BC being subject to the Canadian way of doing things, and that includes having to put up with the sucky constitution and lapdog courts that being in Confederation saddles us with, and because of the current Constitution there is no way we can reform even the provincial government, much less the federal one. And by "government" here I mean the system, not the current regime.

Send it back

Skookum 1

Any way we could send this constitution back to Britain? How about a major re-write?

West Coast Separatism

I see that the last few posts in this thread have changed the issue from environment and pollution to constitution and separation. I guess this means that the extreme edges of West Coast populism, both on the left and the right, tend to drift off into psuedo-separatist thinking. I guess they're harmless enough as long as they don't start buying up large loads of fertilizer, but the unfortunate thing is that they continue the tradition of wackiness in BC politics that gets this province a reputation as a place that serious people can - and should - ignore.

Given that, I wonder if these thinkers can contribute anything useful. For example, can they propose a provincial anthem for us that would have a catchy tune and a martial air about it, enough to make the Toronto based public opinion managers in the mass media industry start to sweat?

How about

Bee See
Bee See
Uber Alles

Bee See
Bee See
The greatest place in the whole wide world
to watch the whales before they all split for california???

Harper and BC

Hmmm. Imagine that. Ottawa not giving a damn about BC.

So we suddenly now realize that our best interests are not being served by the centralists? My god people out here are stupid...

For the sake of tradition, we have pluncked our collective heads in the sand only to find out suddenly that Ottawa really might have another agenda.

And it seems that separation is poo pooed here because we might be swallowed up by those bad old americans.

Even though there is no eveidence to support such a notion.

At the very most, they may try to bribe us to vote to join. But that could quickly be short cucuited by making BC a great place to hide yankee money.

The second we did that, there will be no swallowing because the same folks who make the laws, also want to hide their money. And what better place than BC which miracle of miracles is right on the way to Alaska?

So. Anyone tired of Ottawa and central canuckistan deciding that the environment is not for us to worry about? Separation anyone?

BC is after all well able to stand alone. More so than Kweeebeck any day.

Mike Summers
Vanderhoof BC

Whacko BC?

So. Anyone tired of Ottawa and central canuckistan deciding that the environment is not for us to worry about? Separation anyone?

BC is after all well able to stand alone. More so than Kweeebeck any day.

Mike Summers
Vanderhoof BC

Thanks a million, Mike. It's outbursts like this that allow Toronto opinion columnists to portray BC as the land of the nut and the home of the kook.

"Canadianist" dissers

Gee, calling us "wacky" and "pseudo-separatist" for daring to point out that the public interest in British Columbia is rarely, if ever served, by Ottawa/Toront/Montreal's control of the national polity, and that the constitutional system we're stuck with for being part of the many-headed Beast that is Confederation has no real democratic elements for us because of the domination of Central Canada's voting strength over our own.....in fact, one of the only times it ever seems to have done so is Trudeau imposing the drilling moratorium, despite (some) Socred desires to get it lifted (some Socreds endorsed it, can't remember if Miniwac did).

You can call us "wacky" and "pseudo-separatists" all you want; these are common feelings here, and have been here since before the railway, and are rapidly acquired by people once they live in BC long enough to realize what a screw-up Canada really is....

What I read off your post is that you''re an "attacker" like those here who want to talk about the corruption of a single NDPer vs the current political crisis - and it is a crisis, although the dissemblers pooh-pooh it. You're what I call a "Canadianist", someone who doesn't actually have an open mind on BC's needs and feelings and would rather dump on people who express them than actually recognize those concerns as legitimate.

Fine, have it your way; you're just another shill, though for a different agenda than the Liberal hack-mongers who patrol these forums. You can call me a "wacky pseudo-separatist" (I'm not "pseudo" anything, thank you very much) and I can call you an arrogant, stereotyping, closeminded Centralist Canadian.

Isn`t it Budd?

Budd ..a quote from Norman Mailer:

The people of B.C. voted Gordon Campbell and his group into power not once but twice.

It is the land of the nut and home of the kook...isn`t it?

Heard any quotes from the mayor of Vancouver lately?
Shirley Bond? John Les? How about Rich Coleman?

Too late to take it to No.10

Well, until 1982 that was actually possible......but now we've "repatriated" it, which means that the arbiters of the constitutional process are the first ministers and their cronies.......but not the people, or even the Crown......

thanks for that Skookum1

Thanks for enlightening me on this Skookum1..I admit its something I knew very little about and is worth investigating further...knowing this explains a lot.
Thanks for turning on the lights.

I am not afraid.

Unlike so many of my contemporaries, I am not afraid to expose my name as one dedicated entirely to the province I love so dearly.

This is a majestic province so full of brilliant people and full of potential too.

Yet we are continually held at arms length by our supposed partners in confederation, who use their other hand to hold their collective noses at us.

Everything that this country does is at the behest of Morontario or Kweeeeebec. And we allow traditionalists to hold us back, afraid to stir the pot and bring real democracy and sanity back to where it belongs, and that's with the voter.

I am clearly right wing in my beliefs.

But I hold no corner on widom. Neither do any of you lefties.

But the collective mind of every voter can decide whats right for this province if the politicians are forced to. The only way that will happen here or anywhere else is for the people to elect a party whose aim it is to bring these ideals into place. and this party only need be elected ONE TIME After that? Who cares? It won't make any difference who gets in because you and I have the power over the politicians to force them to do OUR will.

Party agendas are the reason we are subjugated the way we are now. And It's not right.

I am hooked into the BC Conservatives because the party's stated aim is to install direct democracy into BC. Meaning that BC'ers would control politicians and their policies for a change. And stupidity on the part of politicians would also decrease for fear that their policy would be too radical and awake the people to react. So, maybe then moderation and cooperation can finally come to BC.

Mike Summers
Vanderhoof BC

The opinions of Toronto columnists....

The opinions of the Toronto columnists about BC are only more demonstrations of the combination of the combined arrogance and ignorance of those columnists and the Centralist Canadian polity they represent/speak for. They're their own problem, not ours; or more to the point, it is those opinions and columnists who are the problem. "Toronto opinion columnists" (and those in other Central-Empire cities) have been saying bulltwaddle like that about BC ever since (and before) we joined Confederation as a way to dismiss our concerns and portray us as "lunatic fringe". We've literally heard eveything "from soup to nuts" and it's this kind of dismissive insult that generates the contempt held for the Toronto papers/media, and for the Toronto opinion columnists (who get more than their fair share of national broadcast time, as well as shoved down our noses by syndication).

And the people of BC didn't vote Campbell in. FPTP did, plus a lot of help from professional spin doctors and the toady media.

another typical slag of "BCism"

I'm not sure if bob the cat posted that ironically or as yet another slag of BC-firsters like myself, i.e. directly equating us with Naziism; apparently it was a response for a nice martial air for a provincial anthem . . . it's worth remembering that the French lyrics to O Canada talk about slaying the foes of the faith etc (or did). I always did like The Maple Leaf Forever (no longer used because it offends the French, but so does just being an anglo....) and wish Washington state had approved Louie, Louie (as an anthem everybody can easily sing along to) and also wish Oz had approved Waltzing Matilda (Advance Australia Fair! was chosen...).

Rather than play the game of picking an anthem for BC (we already have a much prettier flag than that obnoxious two-tone maple leaf, which looks like a blood donation sign, perhaps not accidentally given the vampires who run the place....) I'm gonna return back to this "anybody who opposes Canadianism is a Nazi" line:

It's been used on Quebec nationalists, it's been used on First Nations, it's been used on Albertans, and also on British Columbians. But actually it mostly applies to Ontarians - maybe it's because vampires can't see their own reflection in mirrors that they can't see what they look like, or hear how they sound (vampires at least aren't deaf....).

Self Sufficiency

One thing an independent BC would need is more oil refining capacity. Are the people of BC ready for this? It could also help to bring the price of gasoline down.

Skookum1

feeble attempt at humour Skookum no slag intended...responding to Buds request for a martial sounding ditty.

reply to bob the cat

OK, good to know/realize - but you gotta agree the Nazi comparison is too common from the self-righteous political pundits when slagging anybody breaking the Canadian forelock-tugging line; and yeah, sure, the Nazi comparison is made against the BCLibs, too, and has also been used by BCLib/Socred types to dump on the NDP (when not comparing them to the Soviets); but it's such a standard incantation to denounce "regionalism" (another patronizing Central Canadianism, as is "the regions" to mean anything outside of Ontario....) that to me it's a demonstration of the feebleness of the Central Canadian position about "regional grievances". No, that's not the right term although it's the one they like to use - it's more like "the regular injustices committed on 'the regions' by the Golden Horseshoe/Greater Montreal"

They call them grievances. I call it injustice. "Representation by population" is a shame when most of that population is, effectively, in another "country" (small-c) that knows nothing about this "country". We're a colony still......I would have rather us remained Britain's than have to put up with the horseshit the national polity regular feeds us, and derides us as (when not ignoring us, or blacking us out altogether).

Has the national media covered lifting the moratorium?

Certainly wasn't on The National these last few nights, nor of course on Global National, and unless it was buried in the business sections I didn't see it in the rags. Odd how major policy changes are not even mumbled about; they're just not talked about at all.

But we sure hear a lot about sick babies and car crashes....

Gas prices = political agenda

This isn't true. The price of gasoline is not set in Canada. Canadians have to pay the same as what Americans are willing to pay for our gasoline.

Skookum 1

You have obviously attempted to get to and examine the "root" of the Canadian matrix..and "our" (British Columbians) place in it.
I am only recently appreciating or forming a rudimentary understanding of your vision.
I see your work as serious work and have much respect for it.
e

Anyway

Anyway back to those conjoined twins..
and the Canuck ownership Trial of the Century of course.

the Canuck ownership Trial of the Century

"I can't comment - the matter is before the courts" - Tom Gaglardi.

Another non-jury trial where no one will comment...although a totally different matter, of course.

Does have me wondering about the Mt Garibaldi ski proposal, though......secondlook are you listening?

Making headlines

Skookum1: Globe & Mail had a large article on the weekend on this topic.

What's with all the venom and blame for this directed at Ontario and Quebec? Harper and his crew are Conservatives and brag about their western base. Gary Lunn is the MP from Saanich Peninsula. Didn't Gordon Campbell announce in a meeting in an Asian country that he expected oil and gas development to happen within 10 years or so off the west coast of B.C.? It is the oil sands project from our dear neighbour, Alberta, that is driving this agenda.

We need to take responsibility and fight for the moratorium with our own politicians.

You got it wrong

No, you've got it wrong - somebody else owns the politicians.

ownership...

No, you've got it wrong - somebody else owns the politicians

Skookum1, on this I can certainly agree.

The politicians of BC are owned. By whom we aren't sure. But they are owned. Oh, and it's not by the voters either.

That's why I am forever chiming about tossing a leash and a choke chain on the politicians who should be there as administrators or the public good. And that good should be subject to voter denial and withdrawl if they so choose.

But then, that would be democratic and they don't want you to be able to control anything...

Mike Summers
Vanderhoof BC

high cost of gas in BC..

We definitely need to open our export options - especially in oil. Spills are something we must take a chance on.
Our history is being outsmarted by the Americans. AFTA is just another example and now applies to our high cost of gas. Probably it all started over 30 years ago and here's my take on it.
Although not an OPEC member (each of which normally has its domestic price), Canada, under Pierre Trudeau, founded a Canadian state-run oil company (Petro-Canada) in 1975. In 1980 the Liberals implemented the National Energy Program despite intense opposition from Alberta and western Canada in general. The NEP gave preferential treatment to Canadian oil producers and sought to guard against drastic jumps in the international price of oil by fixing domestic (Canadian) prices. Of course this irked US business and the powerful US lobby machine got into the act. Canadian opposition was fueled by notions that the industrial east would reap the benefits of a low price and the producing west would lose the windfall of market prices - even though the lower prices would only apply to Canadian needs.

Then we had the misfortune of electing Brian Mulroney who had campaigned against the NEP. The signing of the North America Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) was the demise of any hope of our country being an independent oil producer. The final blow was the privatization of Petro-Canada and we became an energy satellite of the US - so much so that in a crunch, the US's needs would be served before ours. In fact, US companies now have an overwhelming influence on Canadian exploration and distribution.

Incidentally, it's unlikely that Mr. Mulroney is even aware of our Canadian gas prices since most of his buying might be from his retirement mansion in Florida.

Does it even matter

all it seems now is that Canada is for sale to everyone. at my last job i had the opportunity to meet with Kinder Morgan, an oil company who has a 24 inch pipe running from Edmonton down through the lower B.C regions to Burnaby, much of the pipe goes through First Nations land, in which they'd like them to give up more land so Kinder Morgan can twin the existing pipe and ad another 24 inch pipe along the one already there. i asked them where the oil goes, and they said 9 out of 10 barrels is shipped to the states or china. that got me thinking and i did a little research and discovered that most of the natural resources are hardly being used to benefit Canada and its people, most of it goes to other countries. I know to some people this is something they already know but to me being first nation and being so closely tied to the land and its resources, it pisses me off and things like this nasty flood were supposed to get are ways that mother nature is getting back at the world for raping this country of everything it has to offer. Harper needs to watch how he projects himself, everyone already knows hes a prick but many people rely on those resources to support their culture, and whenever the government wants to walk into a situation with angery first nations they really need to think twice before just going a head with whatever they think is the best for them.

Blame the Liberals

Actually the proposals were being kicked around, studied and supported when the Liberals were in power.

raping..

hova87..

A lot of truth here...and especially involves the oceans...